Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-04-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: 0936e24 | jonathan++ | src/pmc/sixmodelobject.pmc:
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: Turns out the last fix wasn't quite the whole story; this should be closer to it.
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0936e249e2
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: 7c92758 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: Install subs in packages through the SC.
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7c92758e0d
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: 5a37cdf | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: Update bootstrap.
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5a37cdf893
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: 7d0bcd9 | jonathan++ | src/Regex.pir:
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: Fix up PAST and _dumper imports so they make entries in GLOBALish. Need to do this until they're converted to NQP.
00:39 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7d0bcd9e64
00:39 jnthn All being well, looks like tomorrow may be "breakthrough day" for much of the stuff I've been doing of late.
00:40 jnthn For now, sleep &
00:42 colomon jnthn++
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00:53 * hugme hugs tewk, good vi(m) user!
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07:25 masak mornin', zebras
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07:34 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
07:35 moritz iirc 1900 UTC is the announcement of accepted student
07:35 moritz s
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07:49 masak exciting!
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08:05 masak this shell looks interesting: https://github.com/banister/pry/
08:06 masak maybe we can stea^Wborrow some ideas from it?
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08:11 masak don't know if this has been brought up here before: http://perlbuzz.com/2011/04/slipping-away.html
08:11 masak I feel with alester.
08:12 masak I have no idea what to do about the situation he describes. it's easy to steer a smaller boat, but hard to steer a bigger one.
08:12 moritz it was #1 on reddit/r/programming yesterday
08:13 moritz (where many pointed out that this problem is hardly uniq to the perl community, but that doesn't influence the particular frustration with that community)
08:15 masak no, the problem is not unique to the Perl community.
08:16 masak partly to blame is the anonymity of Internet socializing. it's far too easy to say and do things one wouldn't afk.
08:17 moritz agreed
08:17 masak then there's the demographics issue.
08:17 masak as long as programming communities consist mostly of male twenty-somethings, there's bound to be useless testosterone flying around.
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08:18 masak sorry if that sounds sexist. I'm not saying all male twenty-somethings are jerks. :)
08:18 masak just that if you put fifty of them in a room, a certain dynamics will arise, with a high probability.
08:25 moritz just like with fifty women you might get dynamics you'd want to avoid :-)
08:26 masak didn't Randall Munroe describe such a community in his Google Authors talk?
08:27 masak anyway, I don't think such a community would be problem-free either. of course not.
08:27 moritz roughly, yes
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08:28 tadzik am I right to read that as the conflicts in the headquarters rather than conflicts in the community per se?
08:28 masak no, I think it's in the community per se.
08:28 tadzik I personally have never seen any anger and arguments
08:28 masak huh.
08:29 tadzik maybe besides the rakudo-targetting-many-vms on the PDS few months ago
08:29 masak tadzik: how much time do you spend in the Perl 5 community?
08:29 tadzik masak: well, very little actually, in the global one
08:29 tadzik that's right
08:29 masak there you go, then.
08:29 tadzik hmm
08:29 masak here in the neighbourhood of #perl6, we don't have much of that.
08:30 tadzik well, at least it's invisible for me on the NLPW and the PM meetings
08:30 masak tadzik: http://strangelyconsistent.org/​blog/how-can-we-scale-kindness
08:31 masak tadzik: I believe I wrote that partly because I saw how the larger Perl community had some kindness problems.
08:32 masak tadzik: yes, but people who go to Perl Workshops (et al) are self-selected to be interested in meeting up with people and having a good time ;)
08:32 moritz agreed, people at workshops and conferences aren't interested in getting into fights, generally
08:32 tadzik so the hate and anger is present on the mailing lists and the irc?
08:32 masak tadzik: also, once you're physically in the same room, many of the technology-caused problems have already vanished.
08:32 masak tadzik: and Twitter and Identica and blogs.
08:33 tadzik well, it's easy to call someone an dork over the wire a couple of thousand kilometers long
08:33 tadzik that's a part of it I suppose
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08:35 tadzik one might be very interested in the psychological reasons for this
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08:35 masak yes. the problem is lack of "rooting" in the things that normally make us think "oh wait, that's an actual human being with feelings". I guess.
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08:35 masak even talking on the phone will mitigate those effects. at least if you've met previously.
08:36 moritz having met previously does help a lot, even on IRC
08:37 moritz being able to associate a voice, a face and real-world interaction patterns with a nick makes it almost impossible for me to shout at a nick handle
08:37 moritz (except for joking, of course :-)
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08:39 masak more problem description: http://blogs.perl.org/users/erez_schatz/20​10/11/the-october-that-will-never-be.html
08:42 masak and here's the rationale: http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/blog/​matt-s-trout/on-being-a-bastard/
08:42 masak (I don't want to single out mst, but he *is* a self-confessed bastard, and takes pains to explain why)
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08:43 masak I've always read that latter post as "we have scaled to the point where our only recourse is to be coarse to people, use capital letters, and occasionally ban them"
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08:44 moritz that's one thing. The other is the first impression you give a newcomer
08:44 moritz we also occasionally ban somebody
08:44 masak sure.
08:44 moritz but only after we tried to be friendly, and it didn't work
08:44 masak it's also at least an interesting point that the bastard community member fills a niche in "protecting" the non-bastard supporters.
08:44 masak I don't feel the need for that here on #perl6.
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08:45 * moritz thinks he's one who conducted the most kicks/bans in here in the last two years
08:47 masak moritz++ # tough job, carried out seamlessly
08:47 masak I've always like this post: http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/blog/mat​t-s-trout/respect-is-per-community/
08:48 masak the relation between a newcomer and the people already on the channel is always assymetric.
08:48 masak we see that all the time.
08:49 masak a newcomer coming in and asking "why isn't Rakudo faster?" is qualitatively different from jnthn och pmichaud asking "why isn't Rakudo faster?" :)
08:50 * masak was *so* close to writing a super-snarky answer to the "is Rakudo slow by design?" post on p6u
08:50 masak "Yes -- a few of us sat down and drew up the design criteria for the Perl 6 implementation on Parrot. One of the most important items to us was runtime slowness. So we put it on top of our list."
08:52 * moritz too
08:52 tadzik "actually, we're a sikkret Perl 5 devs and we wanted it to appear even faster"
08:53 tadzik as in http://twitter.com/#!/awwai​id/status/62173638710931457, but different
08:53 masak ooh. there've been further emails in that thread.
08:53 masak pmichaud++ # reply
08:53 masak pmichaud approaches it in exactly the right way: giving appropriate background ("apples-to-oranges comparison"), and then actually addressing the question.
08:54 moritz fwiw nobody in #parrot had a good answer to why the .pbcs are so large
08:55 masak I agree with pmichaud that the mmap thing is more important than compressing to a smaller size.
08:55 masak disk is cheap. we shouldn't waste it, of course -- but I'll take quicker startup any day over small file size.
08:58 moritz a factor of 5 to 8 in size win would mean less IO time
08:58 moritz so it's not clear that uncompressed is actually faster
08:58 masak point.
08:59 masak sounds like a job for good old empirical science.
08:59 masak and such an experiment doesn't need to wait for anything -- load-times are fairly independent from other components of Parrot.
09:05 masak "It seems to me that there have been two really clean, consistent models of programming so far: the C model and the Lisp model." -- Paul Graham, http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.ps
09:05 masak interesting viewpoint.
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09:33 masak "Over time, the median language, meaning the language used by the median programmer, has grown consistently closer to Lisp. So by understanding `eval` you're understanding what will probably be the main model of computation well into the future." -- ibid.
09:33 masak so *that's* what a "smug Lisp weenie" is ;)
09:34 masak srsly though, the definition of eval is wonderfully elegant.
09:35 masak maybe someone in here would be interested in taking a weekend at some point to implement the Lisp described in that paper in Perl 6? :)
09:39 pmurias masak: as similiar project idea i had recently is to implement r7rs scheme as a niecza frontend (http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/attachme​nt/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-1.pdf)
09:41 masak ooh
09:41 masak yes. if I would do what I suggested above, I'd do it in Niecza.
09:41 pmurias masak: not that i'll actually do that
09:41 masak ;)
09:42 pmurias as i have to finish the hoopl optimiser first, and it's progressing slowly
09:42 masak nod.
09:43 masak I think implementing a simple Lisp like that would be very instructive. a combination of "wow, it really is that simple!" and "huh, didn't realize there were these hidden subtleties in the implementation".
09:43 masak (sounds contradictory, but isn't really)
09:47 * colomon is starting to get nervous about the p6 presentation he's giving at Penguicon on Saturday
09:48 tadzik colomon: p6 in general?
09:48 colomon yes
09:49 moritz colomon: what's the audience?
09:49 colomon It's a Linux and science fiction convention.
09:49 * colomon has never given a technical presentation before....
09:50 moritz sounds like a fun mixture
09:52 masak colomon: remember to enjoy yourself. the rest will follow :)
09:54 jnthn oh hai, #perl6
09:54 colomon I need to collection a list of p6 resources...
09:54 masak hm. that, and being well-rehearsed and -prepered.
09:54 masak jnthn! \o/
09:54 colomon jnthn, \o/
09:54 masak jnthn: you made it on this side of noon! :P
09:54 moritz and on which side of nom? :-)
09:54 masak speaking of which...
09:59 jnthn :)
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10:07 jnthn So...where had I got to before I took sleeps...
10:07 masak $jnthn.continuation.invoke;
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10:08 masak IllvilJa! \o/
10:09 jnthn Ah yes. I needed my circularity saw...
10:14 pmurias masak: one interesting part about hoopl is that it forces me to treat haskell as a typed language rather then ignoring types and letting the compiler infer everything for me
10:15 * masak .oO( Perl 6 is a Swiss circularity chainsaw... )
10:15 masak pmurias: ah, yes.
10:15 pmurias jnthn: are you sure a saw is the right tool for waking up?
10:16 masak pmurias: I've been wanting to just start TDD'ing some code analysis behvaiours that I'd like. not sure how far I'd get -- it would probably become a steep uphill pretty soon.
10:16 masak s/soon/quickly/
10:16 jnthn pmurias: Fear not, I have coffee!
10:17 masak Greg Young mentioned that some preconditions you don't want to enforce at runtime. and he had a very good example: the precondition of binary search.
10:18 masak sub binary-search(@list) { PRE { [<=] @list }; ... }
10:19 moritz masak: the Eiffel philosphy would be to enforce it at runtime, but dissable that check for production deployment
10:19 masak moritz: because nothing ever goes wrong in production? :P
10:19 moritz masak: no
10:20 moritz masak: user input validation shouldn't happen with preconditions, so they act like smart C assert()ions
10:21 masak nod.
10:21 moritz ie they are invariants in the API, but there shouldn't be a need to actually check them at the user
10:21 moritz they are a tool for the developer, and useless to the user
10:21 masak method register-user(ValidatedUserString $user) { ... }
10:22 masak subtype ValidatedUserString of Str where { ... }
10:22 moritz that's also not the kind of validation you want to do with user input
10:22 masak moritz: how do you mean "actually check them at the user"?
10:22 moritz because it doesn't throw the exception you want
10:22 moritz s/at the user/when deployed to the user's PC/
10:23 masak ah.
10:23 masak this is starting to sound like the "there's two sets of tests" discussion.
10:23 masak some tests are worth running when installing with CPAN, because the user actually wants those to pass. some tests are just useful for a developer.
10:24 masak &
10:24 moritz it's more like "the tests are actually *in* the code, and you don't want to run them in production"
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: ef63ac2 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: Correct and clean up global lookup logic.
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ef63ac2485
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: 6f58a6d | jonathan++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: Make serialization Event class lexical inside of the serialization context builder. Partly because we can, also because it avoids a NYI in the new package handling.
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6f58a6d861
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: 3a9acf3 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: Don't hardcode KnowHOW in the actions, but grab it from the current %*HOW.
10:26 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3a9acf305b
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10:42 moritz tadzik++ and masak++  # postcards for my nephew arrived
10:43 moritz maja++
10:47 tadzik moritz: did he like it?
10:48 moritz tadzik: yes
10:49 tadzik Great :)
10:51 flussence .oO( that precondition thing gave me an idea, then I realised I was just thinking of the exact same mechanism taint flags use in p5... )
10:52 moritz flussence: you want to taint unchecked user input, and warn every time it hits a precondition?
10:53 flussence no, more like "Array.sort sets a 'this is sorted' flag, calling mutators on that array clears it" sort of thing
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10:53 masak the apocalypses theorize that taint is just an enum trait nowadays. we've yet to see an implementation of that.
10:54 masak flussence: yes, I think something like that might be useful. I think the analyzer might want customizable rules like that.
10:54 moritz currently as I see it, it would need duplication of most operators
10:54 masak and not just booleans. if it kept integers, an analyzer would be able to detect the useless .pop in '@a.push(5); @a.pop; @a.pop'
10:54 masak er, 'my @a; ...'
10:55 masak moritz: not necessarily duplication. just projections down to the important aspects. like length, in the context of push and pop.
10:56 moritz I meant for taint mode
11:00 moritz Q:      What's yellow, and equivalent to the Axiom of Choice?
11:00 moritz A:      Zorn's Lemon.
11:05 masak I wonder if there's a name of that category of pun, wherein someone has realized that (in this case) "lemma" sounds a bit like "lemon", and then goes on to construct the rest of the pun around that.
11:06 tadzik I wonder it this has anything to do with bored studendts. We tend to change the names of things to make them sound funny sometimes
11:06 jnthn Aren't most puns constructed around realizing one thing sounds like another? :)
11:08 masak well, there's at least one other kind: spur-of-the-moment puns.
11:08 masak jnthn: you're quite good at these :)
11:08 masak the "Zorn's Lemon" kind seems a bit more... constructed.
11:09 bs338 it's much funnier when drunk and at a party of only mathematicians
11:10 jnthn masak: Maybe I just construct them really fast... :P
11:11 * jnthn spends a few minutes madly panicing about how his latest refactor broke stings, while leaving classes intact.
11:11 masak <masak> jnthn: sometimes you manage to angle your puns just right! <jnthn> masak: Thanks for the complement.
11:11 masak jnthn: that's still my all-time favorite :P
11:11 jnthn ...turns out that using the same types of quote in your shell as you use for the strings in the program will make it look that way...
11:11 jnthn masak: :P
11:12 jnthn Oh no, what terror have I visited upon us...I think I just added a way in NQP to declare that you want to export a different meta-object to replace the in-built definition of class/grammar/whatever. :)
11:13 jnthn Just wait until *that* makes it into Rakudo. :)
11:14 masak whoa.
11:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: c67bd2d | jonathan++ | / (7 files):
11:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: The compiler so far has been using the HOWs that it is implemented with rather than the ones defined by the meta-objects library the program we're compiling uses, which was obviously wrong. This fixes it, by introducing a mechanism for exporting stuff in a way that will see it end up in %*HOW. Note, not official API for this. And yes, this means you can now customize what class means in NQP by writing a meta-object in a module and stuffing it into
11:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c67bd2dd3c
11:17 jnthn oh no truncation!
11:17 masak jnthn: this would never happen if you didn't insist on writing the whole commit comment in one line! :P
11:17 jnthn I cba to configure EDITOR :P
11:18 masak orka!
11:18 moritz dalek cba  to line-wrap for you
11:19 masak lazybot.
11:19 jnthn moritz: That's fine, then people have to click the link to see the rest of the message, then I win free code review...if I'm lucky. <grin>
11:20 jnthn OK, so now I accidentally implemented custom meta-object usage...let's see if I can do what I was actually trying to. :)
11:21 moritz jnthn: fwiw in bash I can also write multi-line commit messages without any editor
11:21 masak yes, I thought about that too.
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11:22 masak jnthn: how does COMMAND.COM behave if you press Enter with unclosed quotes?
11:22 moritz just  git commit -am 'foo<RETURN>rest of message'
11:22 * masak tries
11:23 moritz probably double quotes for teh Win(dows)
11:23 masak aye.
11:23 jnthn masak: I...think it assumes I missed a quote off the end...
11:23 masak jnthn: early trials seems to suggest that.
11:23 jnthn ...and helpfully pretends I wrote one.
11:23 masak that is teh sux.
11:24 jnthn :P
11:24 sulletf how can i commit efficiently ?
11:25 tadzik oh, this "orka" word, this was something interesting
11:25 tadzik phenny: "orka"?
11:25 phenny tadzik: "energy" (is to en, translate.google.com)
11:25 tadzik not really
11:25 tadzik phenny: se "orka"?
11:25 phenny tadzik: "energy" (se to en, translate.google.com)
11:25 tadzik pff
11:25 jnthn tadzik: It's Swedish for something like "oh, who can be bothered"
11:25 tadzik ah, exactly
11:26 * jnthn is kinda impressed that Swedish huffmanized this expression so well :)
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11:31 masak it's also funny how that word came to mean that expression. sv:"orka" is a verb meaning "to have the energy to do [sth]"
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11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: 26f67b1 | jonathan++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: A little chop with the circularity saw. :-)
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/26f67b19ea
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: 0c29c72 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Grammar.pm:
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: We never actually install KnowHOW in the package (yet), so just obtain it directly from the 6model core for now.
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0c29c72d4c
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: 9e9d521 | jonathan++ | src/Regex/P6Regex/Actions.pm:
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: Add a missing 'our' that we somehow got away with before.
11:52 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/9e9d521a5f
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12:00 pmurias sorear: ping
12:12 jnthn std: GLOBAL::mysub := { ok(5, 'bare GLOBAL works'); }; mysub();
12:13 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix := instead at /tmp/44QLbNomEG line 1:␤------> [32mGLOBAL::mysub [33m⏏[31m:= { ok(5, 'bare GLOBAL works'); }; mysu[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
12:13 jnthn std: &GLOBAL::mysub := { ok(5, 'bare GLOBAL works'); }; mysub();
12:13 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Undeclared routines:␤        'mysub' used at line 1␤ 'ok' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 125m␤»
12:13 jnthn niecza: &GLOBAL::mysub := { ok(5, 'bare GLOBAL works'); }; mysub();
12:13 p6eval niecza v4-70-gfb79b12: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Undeclared routines:␤     'mysub' used at line Any()1␤    'ok' used at line Any()1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 388 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1141
12:13 p6eval ..(STD P6.comp_unit @ …
12:13 jnthn TimToady: ^^ Correct?
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12:19 Shlomo helo, what is the status of perl version 6? is it coming out soon to production? I heard of it looong time ago but did not have time to check it..
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12:23 masak Shlomo: hi, glad you're here. it's a common question. will try to give you a good answer :)
12:24 Shlomo masak: great
12:24 masak labels like "beta", "development", "production" make more sense for more delimited application in well-known territories.
12:25 masak Perl 6 is a whole new programming language. it's been in constant development for 10 years. we've come a really long way. we still have quite a long way to go.
12:25 masak when people ask "when's it gonna be released" and similar things, what they really want to know is "when should I start to care about it?"
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12:26 Shlomo exactly.
12:26 masak and that depends :) for some people, it's already very usable and useful.
12:26 masak if you're doing software for nuclear warheads or precision surgery, maybe Perl 6 isn't for you yet.
12:27 masak because it's probably not "stable" enough for those things.
12:27 Shlomo we are using python3 for mission critical apps and it is not that old..
12:27 masak but Rakudo Perl 6 already has a very mature type system, OO tools, grammars, built-in functions, operators, etc. it's relatively mature.
12:27 Shlomo why not announce a release then?
12:28 Shlomo a production one
12:28 masak we're announcing a release every month.
12:28 masak we just don't use the word "production", because it's so subjective.
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12:28 masak we're happier to explain what I just explained to each person that stops by :)
12:28 Shlomo mmm.. production level phobia? :)
12:28 masak wow, I sure hope not.
12:29 masak I for one am eager to push Perl 6 out into the world.
12:29 masak but what you're saying isn't completely baseless. we do change things around sometimes.
12:29 masak perhaps more than other similar projects.
12:29 masak we do that when we believe that we've learned something, and we can make things better by changing the specification.
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12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: 5613e50 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: Switch over the majority of lookups to the new packages model. A bunch of new regressions to hunt down, but most things work.
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5613e508d1
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: 628e050 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: Load the Regex library by default; NQP users expect Regex::Match and so forth to be to hand by default. Recovers some of the broken tests.
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/628e050d0f
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: f4a923d | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: Fix GLOBAL::foo and contextual fallback. Fixes regressions in package var test script, apart from one that is dubious.
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f4a923d41c
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: c17da73 | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: Need to actually respect declaration order of things now. This fixes the regressed roles tests - it's just a reordering in the meta-objects file.
12:30 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c17da73885
12:30 Shlomo so the sepcification is not final yet?
12:30 masak Shlomo: that's someone working on Perl 6 right there :P
12:30 Shlomo ?
12:30 pmurias masak: how did you TDD static analysis
12:30 pmurias ?
12:30 masak Shlomo: the specification is largely final. we tend to think of parts of it as either "frozen" or almost-frozen/"sludgy".
12:31 masak pmurias: I haven't, yet. I'd like to try to.
12:31 Shlomo oh... it looks to be a long way..
12:31 masak Shlomo: yes. have a look at Rosetta Code, it contains many examples of working Perl 6 code.
12:32 masak Shlomo: then you'll get a sense of how far it's already come.
12:32 jnthn Shlomo: The problem with declaring the spec "final" without having an implementation of all of it, is that our experience has been that the first implementations of a feature tend to need tweaks to the spec. Freezing it would actually make compiler implementation harder.
12:32 masak (the Rosetta Code examples are also good in that they often state the limitations of Rakudo and things that will improve in the future)
12:32 Shlomo which is not that bad
12:32 Shlomo you must define your needs
12:32 Shlomo then start to implement them
12:32 Shlomo limited by your specs
12:32 masak and sometimes we must discover our needs :)
12:32 jnthn The spec changes today aren't "shiny new stuff" but "we implemented this and it was hard in this way" or "we implemented this and users said OH NOES" :)
12:32 Shlomo otherwise you will spend your life tweaking your specs!
12:33 masak things that look good on paper sometimes don't work out in bits.
12:33 masak Shlomo: or suffer under a bad/unimplementable spec.
12:33 Shlomo masak: you can fix that with new realses and patches..
12:33 * masak tends to be one of the user that says OH NOES
12:34 Shlomo masak: it will never be perfect
12:34 masak Shlomo: yes, and we might one day "release" the spec and have implementations conform to that version.
12:34 masak Shlomo: that would probably count as an "official release of Perl 6".
12:34 masak people sometimes describe that as "Perl 6.0.0". it's even in the spec itself in a few places.
12:35 masak things that are extra tricky are labeled as "not needed in Perl 6.0.0" :)
12:35 Shlomo I think the problem is that perl6 have a community of perfectionists.. I think the time from 2000 till today is more than enough for specs to be confirmed :)
12:36 dalek nqp/ctmo: 12f14b1 | jonathan++ | t/hll/05-commandline.t:
12:36 dalek nqp/ctmo: We don't import HLL automatically any more, so explicitly do so in the 05-commandline.t tests. They all pass.
12:36 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/12f14b1728
12:38 masak Shlomo: we have perfectionists on our community. we also have lots of pragmatists, and people somewhere in-between.
12:40 masak and yes, many parts of the design are about "doing it right this time". as opposed to some of the design decisions that went into (and are limiting the growth of) Perl 5.
12:40 Shlomo I wonder in group is larry himself.
12:40 Shlomo in what
12:41 masak but! do not thinnk that we've been working for 11 years on one single thing.
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12:41 masak there have been many roads taken, and many lessons learned. even Rakudo itself has been very much an iterative thing.
12:42 Shlomo I always thought that since most of you know what was good and what was bad in perl5 should be a great guide to come out with a great new language is short time..
12:42 masak and each time we build a little piece of Perl 6, we're getting better at it. that's not perfectionism, that's sound development. :)
12:42 dual joined #perl6
12:43 Shlomo unless perl6 is a not related to perl5 at all..
12:43 masak Shlomo: well, it was possible to run Perl 6 code as early as 2005.
12:43 masak oh sure, they're related.
12:43 masak there was even a project meant to put Perl 5 on Parrot and make the distance between the two languages very small.
12:44 masak the project was called Ponie. it didn't make it all the way.
12:44 mtk left #perl6
12:45 masak it had skilled core developers, from what I gather. but it never got the community buy-in that was needed to make it take off. perhaps because it *required* skilled contributors, I dunno.
12:46 masak it might also have been way too early to try something like that back in 2003.
12:46 masak we should try it again sometime. :)
12:47 arnsholt Indeed. Even if it's another failure, it'd be an interesting way to compare the two vintages of Parrot
12:48 masak the problem with making a Perl 5 runtime is that there already is a Perl 5 runtime. it's called `perl`.
12:49 mtk joined #perl6
12:49 masak so Ponie would have to be very clear on what it offered that `perl` doesn't.
12:50 Shlomo one last thing, why not announce a release data (or year) ?
12:50 Shlomo s/data/date
12:52 masak it has to do with this being a community effort carried forward by volunteers.
12:53 masak largely unpaid volunteers, who do this out of the joy of bringing Perl 6 into the world.
12:53 masak it turns out that you can't put a deadline on that kind of work. it just makes no sense.
12:54 arnsholt masak: Yeah, that definitely warrants a certain amount of thought
12:54 masak (and that question, "why not announce a release date?", is just a reformulation of "when is Perl 6 going to be released?". so, see above.)
12:55 Shlomo so perl6 needs funding? So you assume that python or haskell or any other opensource language did get more funding than perl6?
12:55 masak we have funding.
12:55 masak money isn't the limiting resource.
12:55 masak people's time is.
12:55 masak that's why we're happy to bring in curious newcomers :)
12:56 Shlomo i thought of money because you talked about unpaid volunteers
12:56 masak yes. I was just describing the structure of the project.
12:56 Shlomo anyway, how can we donate? since we opened the topic..
12:56 masak hm, wow.
12:56 Shlomo I mean financial support
12:56 masak consider donating by downloading Rakudo and trying it out, maybe finding a bug or so... :)
12:57 masak as to money, I... I don't know. TPF?
12:57 masak http://www.perlfoundation.org/
12:57 masak ah, https://donate.perlfoundation.org/​index.pl?node=Contribution%20Info
12:58 Shlomo masak: so now you know :)
12:58 masak yes, the power of Google :)
12:59 masak Shlomo: I held a Perl 6 Coding Contest last December, with the prize being 100 EUR worth of books. so in a way, I've donated to Perl 6 this year :)
13:00 Shlomo 100 EUR :) good for you :)
13:00 masak it was a blast. I want to do it again next year.
13:00 masak well, this year. :)
13:02 Shlomo that is the spirit of a great community.. perl6 will be a great power i think... thanks for your time.
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13:04 jnthn Good news:
13:04 jnthn > my module Foo { our sub bar() { say("yay") } }; Foo::bar()
13:04 jnthn yay
13:04 jnthn Bad news:
13:04 jnthn I broke the bootstrap... :/
13:04 masak Shlomo++ # ideal newcomer
13:04 jnthn Indeed!
13:05 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
13:06 * masak .oO( why is Perl 6 being developed in schlo-mo...? )
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13:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: fb745e0 | jonathan++ | t/hll/01-language.t:
13:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: Another missing use HLL.
13:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fb745e0fb6
13:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: dcc0d96 | jonathan++ | src/Regex/Method.pir:
13:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: Partial fix for broken regex interpolation tests.
13:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/dcc0d96b52
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13:37 masak 'A healthy community can put up with a certain amount of tension and compression.  It's called "tensegrity" when it helps hold us all together.  It's probably called something else when it drives us apart.  Please aim for the tensegrity, because I don't want to figure out what to call the other.' -- TimToady++, http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.​perl6.language/2009/05/msg31897.html
13:39 * moritz hopes he never becomes famous, people could cite the wrong phrases from my year-old mailing list postings
13:41 masak moritz: I'm not sure the causal arrows point only in the direction you imply.
14:01 dalek nqp/ctmo: 3fdc2de | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
14:01 dalek nqp/ctmo: Keep CLEANUPS up to date, so make clean actually cleans.
14:01 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3fdc2de633
14:01 dalek nqp/ctmo: eec5353 | jonathan++ | src/ModuleLoader.pm:
14:01 dalek nqp/ctmo: D'oh. It's all well and good every module getting a clean slate (aka separate compilation), but it really shouldn't enforce its limited world view on its loader. Particularly when it's loader is the compiler, which would really rather its own symbols don't go missing. Fixes the broken bootstrap.
14:01 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/eec53534b2
14:01 jnthn *its
14:01 jnthn D'oh. :)
14:02 jnthn I'm...really not sure how that bug managed not to break far more...
14:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: e9a452a | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
14:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: Update the bootstrap.
14:02 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e9a452a277
14:03 masak rakudo: my %h=1=>"happy";sub h {my %s;sub r {return "sad" if%s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+]$n.comb>>**>>2};r $^n};say $_=>h($_) for ^10
14:03 masak trying to fit it into a tweet. :)
14:03 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«(timeout)appy␤2   sad␤3   sad␤4   sad␤5   sad␤6   sad␤7   happy␤8 sad␤»
14:03 masak std: my %h=1=>"happy";sub h {my %s;sub r {return "sad" if%s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+]$n.comb>>**>>2};r $^n};say $_=>h($_) for ^10
14:03 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/PwBJ1_7js4 line 1:␤------> [32m{return "sad" if%s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+][33m⏏[31m$n.comb>>**>>2};r $^n};say $_=>h($_) for[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    POST␤   bracketed infix␤        infix or meta-infix␤    postfix␤
14:03 p6eval ..    postfix_prefix_meta_…
14:04 masak bleh.
14:04 masak std: my %h=1=>"happy";sub h {my %s;sub r {return "sad" if %s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+]$n.comb>>**>>2};r $^n};say $_=>h($_) for ^10
14:04 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/bZA4SF99sn line 1:␤------> [32mreturn "sad" if %s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+][33m⏏[31m$n.comb>>**>>2};r $^n};say $_=>h($_) for[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    POST␤   bracketed infix␤        infix or meta-infix␤    postfix␤
14:04 p6eval ..    postfix_prefix_meta_…
14:04 * masak should read the error message
14:04 masak std: my %h=1=>"happy";sub h {my %s;sub r {return "sad" if%s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+] $n.comb>>**>>2};r $^n};say $_=>h($_) for ^10
14:04 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
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14:06 jnthn Anyone who fancies verifying that ctmo builds cleanly for them is most welcome to do so. I'm going to do some more bits, but expect a merge of latest ctmo to master later today.
14:06 jnthn I'll also blog about what on earth I've been doing for the last several days ;)
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14:13 sorear pmurias: hi
14:14 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
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14:16 jnthn walk &
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14:19 masak std: my %h=1=>"happy";my %s;say [$_,(sub r {return "sad" if%s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+] $n.comb»**»2})($_)] for ^10
14:19 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 124m␤»
14:19 JimmyZ_ E:\Open Source\nqp>nqp
14:19 masak rakudo: my %h=1=>"happy";my %s;say [$_,(sub r {return "sad" if%s{$^n}++;%h{$n}//=r [+] $n.comb»**»2})($_)] for ^10
14:19 JimmyZ_ Null PMC access in instantiate()
14:19 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«Could not find sub code_73␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/jF1UApu1Ty␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:19 * masak submits rakudobug
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14:19 [particle]1 is now known as [particle]
14:21 masak rakudo: (sub r {})() for 5
14:21 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«Could not find sub code_73␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/r25g6FjHN3␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:21 masak niecza: (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:21 p6eval niecza v4-70-gfb79b12: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
14:22 masak rakudo: (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:22 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«Could not find sub code_73␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/LeVlNG7yDT␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:22 masak pugs: (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:22 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "r"␤    expecting "=", subroutine parameters, trait or block␤    at /tmp/qqcEAxdcjd line 1, column 6␤»
14:22 sbp std: (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:22 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
14:23 masak rakudo: say "compiles OK"; (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:23 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«compiles OK␤Could not find sub code_73␤  in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/Vkscj22K2J␤  in main program body at line 1␤»
14:24 masak rakudo: for 5 { (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() }
14:24 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef:  ( no output )
14:25 masak rakudo: for 5 { (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() }; say "alive"
14:25 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«alive␤»
14:25 masak wtf
14:25 masak niecza: for 5 { (sub r { say "OH HAI" })() }; say "alive"
14:25 p6eval niecza v4-70-gfb79b12: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  &r is declared but not used at /tmp/5pPtRrAxWC line 1:␤------> [32mfor 5 { (sub r[33m⏏[31m { say "OH HAI" })() }; say "alive"[0m␤␤OH HAI␤alive␤»
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14:26 masak TimToady, sorear: ^^
14:26 mkramer left #perl6
14:26 masak it is used. just not by name.
14:26 TimToady it's the name it's complaining about, since you could have made it anonymous
14:26 masak niecza: for 5 { (sub { say "OH HAI" })() }; say "alive"
14:26 p6eval niecza v4-70-gfb79b12: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤alive␤»
14:27 masak oh all right :)
14:27 masak rakudo: for 5 { (sub { say "OH HAI" })() }; say "alive"
14:27 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«alive␤»
14:27 TimToady same with our not using the lexical name
14:27 TimToady sink bug?
14:28 TimToady rakudo: for 5 { say "OH HAI" }; say "alive"
14:28 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤alive␤»
14:28 TimToady not sink bug
14:29 TimToady rakudo: say (sub { say "OH HAI" }).WHAT
14:29 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«Sub()␤»
14:29 TimToady rakudo: say (sub { say "OH HAI" })()
14:29 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤Bool::True␤»
14:29 TimToady rakudo: say (sub { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:30 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤Bool::True␤»
14:30 TimToady rakudo: (sub { say "OH HAI" })() for 5
14:30 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
14:30 JimmyZ_ TimToady: the perlchina conference  in beijing will be hold at 7/2/2011
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14:31 TimToady rakudo: for 5 { (sub { say "OH HAI" })() }
14:31 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef:  ( no output )
14:31 TimToady rakudo: my @x = do for 5 { (sub { say "OH HAI" })() }
14:31 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef:  ( no output )
14:31 JimmyZ_ *on
14:33 masak std: for 5 { (sub r {})() }
14:34 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  &r is declared but not used at /tmp/N2soMwQjKf line 1:␤------> [32mfor 5 { (sub r[33m⏏[31m {})() }[0m␤ok 00:01 120m␤»
14:34 masak std: (sub r {})() for 5
14:34 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
14:34 masak TimToady: why does the former complain but not the latter?
14:34 TimToady hmm, we'd been planning to spend the whole week in Asheville, which would make it hard to get to China
14:35 TimToady but write to gloria, who plans my calendar
14:35 JimmyZ_ oh, ok
14:35 TimToady (Asheville is where YAPC is)
14:38 TimToady masak: it's probably attached to the block logic rather than the scope logic, so likely a bug
14:39 masak TimToady: when I find stdbugs, what should I do?
14:39 TimToady panic
14:39 masak ;)
14:40 TimToady ^_^'  <- sweat drop
14:40 masak no, I mean, is there any action I can take to... I don't know, offload your cognitive load in keeping track of unfixed bugs?
14:40 masak (also, it would give me some satisfaction to be able to add it to a list somewhere) :P
14:41 JimmyZ_ submit it to github?
14:42 TimToady well, I do keep a "todo" file
14:42 masak oh, ok.
14:44 TimToady I guess a good question is whether you complain about imported subs that are used...
14:44 TimToady *n't
14:44 TimToady ^ another sweat drop
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14:45 TimToady jnthn: yes, it's correct; the package is not searched for sub calls by default
14:47 masak walk &
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14:55 TimToady you can either call into the package directly with OUR::, or register a failover to the package with CANDO
14:59 jnthn TimToady: OK, so sub lookups are essentially just lexical?
14:59 TimToady hai
15:00 jnthn o/
15:00 TimToady (unless there's a CANDO in the outer lexical scope)
15:00 jnthn oh, wait, hai was "yes"?
15:00 TimToady and that just adds to the end
15:01 TimToady hai!
15:01 TimToady はい!
15:02 jnthn TimToady: fwiw, I'm planning to be at the Beijing Perl Workshop
15:02 jnthn OK, I'll fix that test :)
15:04 sorear it's probably related to this
15:04 jnthn Doing packages righter has shaken out all kinds of dodgy assumptions and orderings in the code. :)
15:04 sorear std: sub foo { sub bar { }; bar }
15:04 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
15:04 sorear std: sub foo { sub bar { }; &bar() }
15:04 p6eval std 3468e14: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
15:04 sorear hey did you fix that while I wasn't looking?
15:04 sorear niecza: sub foo { sub bar { }; &bar() }
15:04 p6eval niecza v4-70-gfb79b12:  ( no output )
15:05 sorear used to warn
15:05 TimToady yes, fixed that one, iirc
15:05 TimToady the current problem is that it's checked in getsig
15:05 TimToady and the main block doesn't have a sig
15:11 * TimToady wonders if the main block should have a sig...
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15:15 moritz *@*ARGV ?
15:15 moritz probably without that second *
15:15 TimToady you can't have a global as a parameter...
15:15 TimToady and it'd be @ARGS
15:16 TimToady but then it'd probably complain if you don't use it :)
15:16 moritz right
15:17 TimToady it'd probably want to be a copy of @*ARGS so that different interpreters can access the original args correctly
15:18 TimToady otoh we're probably reinventing MAIN here
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15:21 TimToady so I guess what we say is that if there are multiple interpreters the PROCESS::<@ARGS> gets copied into GLOBAL::<@ARGS> for each interpreter, which works since @*ARGS is contextual and looks in GLOBAL before PROCESS
15:22 TimToady so we don't really have multiple interpreters fighting over a mutable @*ARGS
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15:27 sorear does sharing variables between interpreters make any sense whatsoever?
15:28 sorear is Mu really PROCESS::Mu?  If not, what is PROCESS::<$*OUT>.^mro[*-1]?
15:30 pmurias sorear: hi
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15:30 pmurias sorear: are there ops which don't return a value at all?
15:31 pmurias sorear: with the exception of sink?
15:31 sorear Do you consider void a value?
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15:34 pmurias do a lot of regs return void?
15:34 pmurias sorear: if consider void a value everything returns a value
15:34 pmurias s/consider/i consider
15:37 sorear "regs"?
15:37 pmurias meant to say ops
15:41 sulletf left #perl6
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15:47 sorear pmurias: yes, a lot of ops have void returns
15:48 sorear like 'say'
15:55 ymasory left #perl6
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: cd12868 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: Refactor to ensure proper handling of --module-path.
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cd1286838e
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: 04274af | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: Use --module-path in stage2 building. This should mean that we're achieving real separate compilation.
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/04274af1ad
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: 6080095 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (6 files):
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: Update bootstrap with latest fixes.
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6080095c4d
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: cbaf9e0 | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: Use --module-path in stage 1 build, so it's also doing separate compilation.
15:55 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cbaf9e053e
15:56 ymasory joined #perl6
15:56 jnthn Finally.
15:56 colomon sorear: doesn't say return a Bool indicating success, or something like that?
15:56 colomon jnthn++
15:56 dalek niecza: 9b0380d | pmurias++ | / (7 files):
15:56 dalek niecza: [hoopl] partway into optimising simple-tests/if.t
15:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9b0380dc0e
15:56 dalek niecza: 6367c9c | pmurias++ | hoopl/ (4 files):
15:56 dalek niecza: [hoopl] refactor all the ops from Insn to Op
15:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6367c9c898
15:56 dalek niecza: 808eb1f | pmurias++ | hoopl/ (3 files):
15:56 dalek niecza: [hoopl] convert if statements correctly
15:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/808eb1f307
15:56 dalek niecza: 87f44f0 | pmurias++ | hoopl/Nam.hs:
15:56 dalek niecza: [hoopl] translate letn correctly
15:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/87f44f049e
15:56 sorear colomon: &say does, but the low-level say op doesn't
15:59 pmurias so how does &say know it succeded?
15:59 pmurias and why do we have both a say and print opcode?
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16:09 sorear history; say came first, and when I heard print was needed, it was easiest to do it as a new op
16:09 SHODAN because sometimes you want to print something
16:09 SHODAN you know, to a printer ;)
16:12 tadzik and sometimes you want do display()
16:12 tadzik you now, to a screen :)
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: a60d76e | jonathan++ | t/nqp/43-package-var.t:
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: Toss a bogus test; TimToady++ for confirming bogusness.
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a60d76e1e0
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: 319fc03 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: Make typename rule lookup symbols properly, not using legacy packages.
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/319fc03c09
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: ace800f | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: Add parent class using compile time meta-object. Also give decent compile time error indicating missing parent classes.
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ace800f858
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: ec8a1e6 | jonathan++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: Locate meta-object via the SC. This way, we'll be able to have lexically imported/exported meta-objects, etc...plus it's a faster lookup.
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ec8a1e6f4a
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: aab21a5 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (6 files):
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: Update bootstrap.
16:24 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/aab21a5298
16:24 SHODAN yes. i always assumed "say" uses some sort of text-to-speech thingie to do its magic
16:25 tadzik and parrot has an opcode for that! Talk about high-level
16:27 woosley left #perl6
16:28 * sorear pings TimToady
16:29 pmurias tadzik: say is a niecza opcode
16:30 sorear parrot has an opcode for it too
16:30 sorear does the same thing
16:30 tadzik as I said :)
16:32 pmurias tadzik: re high-level opcodes, niecza has to_json,from_json etc.
16:32 tadzik that's just a matter of bundled JSON module, no?
16:33 pmurias i don't understand
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16:33 tadzik those are opcodes, the json things?
16:34 pmurias yes
16:34 tadzik I see
16:34 pmurias only used by a bundled JSON module
16:36 pmurias tadzik: that's what you meant?
16:37 tadzik pmurias: no, I didn't read that the opcodes you mention are actually opcodes, I thought they are some sort of other builtins
16:38 alester left #perl6
16:39 sorear in niecza-think opcodes are the only way to access generic VM functionality
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16:56 tadzik jnthn: fwiw, nqp/ctmo builds fine and still fails in 4 test files
16:57 jnthn tadzik: regex interpolation, and 3 in t/hll?
16:57 tadzik jnthn: http://nopaste.snit.ch/41769
16:57 tadzik so, yes :)
16:57 jnthn Thanks, that's consistent with what I'm seeing.
16:58 * moritz sees those too
16:58 jnthn OK, great.
16:58 jnthn I know what the regex interpolation issue is.
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: 5375140 | jonathan++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pir:
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: Make sure Regex::Cursor ends up in an SC.
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5375140006
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: e42c76e | jonathan++ | src/HLL/SerializationContextBuilder.pm:
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: Improved error.
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e42c76e54e
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: ea71689 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: Set default parent via the SC.
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ea716894f7
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: 9f893e0 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
16:59 pmurias sorear: if i have nam in a form with basic blocks, (conditional) jumps between them and registers what's the best form to feed them into backends?
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: Add roles via compile time meta-object; good error if role not found.
16:59 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/9f893e031f
16:59 pmurias sorear: try to represent those things with the current format?
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17:26 pmurias masak: how do you plan to test that the static analysis are correct?
17:27 sorear pmurias: I'm not sure; probably yes, though
17:28 sorear pmurias: does the hoopl optimizer know about which primitives require spilling?
17:28 sorear pmurias: do you think a May release is justified?
17:29 pmurias May release of the optimiser?
17:29 mkramer1 joined #perl6
17:29 pmurias sorear: the hoopl optimiser doesn't know about spilling at all yet
17:30 sorear pmurias: May release of Niecza
17:31 pmurias if you are doing date base releases why not?
17:31 mkramer1 left #perl6
17:31 pmurias i don't know how much work does it take to make a release
17:32 mkramer1 joined #perl6
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17:35 isBEKaml joined #perl6
17:35 isBEKaml ohayo, panda folks! :)
17:35 phenny isBEKaml: 24 Apr 19:01Z <jnthn> tell isBEKaml best bet is probably to golf it. But check the String candidate in the multi set in PAST2JSTCompiler. I suspect an inconsistency with PAST2DNSTCompiler, which is tracks.
17:35 phenny isBEKaml: 24 Apr 19:02Z <jnthn> tell isBEKaml if removing the say makes it work, that's a big hint that it's the String rule.
17:36 isBEKaml jnthn: oh, yeah. I kind of golfed it down to something, but that was not the &say. :)
17:36 Moukeddar joined #perl6
17:40 isBEKaml jnthn: I'm seeing this with the  golf'd down snippet. I can understand the inconsistency with method signatures in the java branch. Do you see that in dotnet too? https://gist.github.com/940871
17:40 Moukeddar left #perl6
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17:41 Moukeddar hello pandas (both evil and good)
17:41 PerlJam there are evil pandas?
17:41 Moukeddar oh, you didn't know ?
17:41 isBEKaml tadzik: you must be happy that panda's turning into your meme.. ;)
17:42 tadzik isBEKaml: it's funny :)
17:42 Moukeddar evil one butt-rape you
17:42 Moukeddar beware
17:42 isBEKaml tadzik:yeah, I always thought pandas fell into two types. Dour pandas and sad pandas. :P
17:45 * isBEKaml hopes someone with mono and 6model would try out that snippet to see if that works against the dotnet branch.
17:46 pmurias sorear: does any one use niecza releases as opposed to the repo?
17:48 moritz yes
17:48 moritz people have asked about how to compile releases in here
17:49 moritz and the bootstrap uses releases too
17:50 Moukeddar damn , our services killed two persons due to protesting
17:52 jnthn isBEKaml: No, but I suspect it's down to a refactor done in the dotnet one with $*BIND_VALUE that didn't make it over into the Java one.
17:52 jnthn isBEKaml: It's the generated cod ehtat's wrong, so it'll be a bug somewhere in PAST2JST.pm.
17:52 jnthn oops, fishy sentence.
17:52 jnthn generated *code*
17:52 jnthn :)
17:53 isBEKaml jnthn: "cod", as ever, great timing. (but bad memories of chewing cod liver oil capsules) :P
17:54 isBEKaml jnthn: as to PAST2JST or the method signatures in runtime, it's either of the two that are fishy. One misses what the other needs. :)
17:54 jnthn isBEKaml: Right. The code generated in PAST2JST is meant to pass three args. The first is the thread context, the second is the name. It gets both of those right. The third one is the value to bind into the lexical. It fails it at this one.
17:55 jnthn isBEKaml: When a lexical get or bind is compiled, it's compiled either in bind context or not. If it's in bind context (carried by a contextual), it's meant to emit code to add the value to bind.
17:56 mj41 left #perl6
17:56 jnthn I'm guessing at some point there was a mis-translation or something when mberends++ was updating PAST2JST to keep it in line wiht the way PAST2DNST works.
17:57 isBEKaml jnthn: I noticed that late last night, I was about to dive into runtime when I said, "Oh, wait. It might be one of the compile phases acting up.... " :)
17:57 jnthn Yeah, the runtime looks correct to me.
17:58 isBEKaml jnthn: So, why have many compile phases inbetween? Why not use parrot's builtin tools for grammar checking and leave the implementation/execution to runtime?
17:59 jnthn isBEKaml: What phases exactly?
17:59 isBEKaml jnthn: To add more context, I was thinking about how I would wire things up with some sort of a mapping with PAST tree.
18:00 isBEKaml jnthn: instead of doing a PAST to java syntax tree transformation, isn't there a more direct way of doing a transformation to runtime classes and hand over execution?
18:00 jnthn Oh
18:00 jnthn No
18:00 jnthn Been there. Tried that. :)
18:01 isBEKaml Oh, what were the issues? Just curious..
18:01 jnthn Originally it was PAST => C#. As soon as the prototype felt like it was going somewhere, I added in the extra step.
18:01 Trashlord left #perl6
18:01 jnthn Well, it was getting really messy for one.
18:02 jnthn But also, I didn't want to have to re-write all of the stuff in PAST2DNST when going to emit IL instead of C#
18:02 pernatiy joined #perl6
18:02 isBEKaml IL's to DLR as C# is to CLR? (Bear with me, not very familiar with C# architecture)
18:03 Moukeddar DLR ?
18:03 jnthn No, IL is basically .Net bytecode
18:03 Moukeddar is perl ported to Run on the DLR ?
18:03 isBEKaml Well, one issue I saw in doing this was if PAST were dynamically changing, we would have to rewrite steps..
18:03 Trashlord joined #perl6
18:03 isBEKaml er, s/dynamically//
18:04 jnthn isBEKaml: By the time we get to runtime, PAST is gone.
18:04 Moukeddar_ joined #perl6
18:04 jnthn isBEKaml: The point isn't to walk PAST and interpret it, it's to generate code from it.
18:04 isBEKaml jnthn: yeah, saw that. :) But, we would have so much time in writing the runtime just prior to actual execution.
18:05 masak pmurias: I thought I'd test behaviour. so if I put in a piece with code that can never be reached, I'd expect the static analyzer to throw up a warning that the code can never be reached. things like that.
18:05 * isBEKaml curses long days at work... affects coherent construction of thoughts.
18:06 masak pmurias: I'm envisioning this thing as something that matches ASTs in some way.
18:06 masak isBEKaml: that would explain a lot.
18:06 masak isBEKaml: (in my life right now, I mean)
18:06 isBEKaml masak: haffun! :P
18:06 jnthn isBEKaml: Well, the thing is that this way, since NQP itself is written in NQP, we can eventually get it to compile itself to the JVM. :)
18:06 jnthn Then it's bootstrapped there. :)
18:07 jnthn That's the "goal" as it were. Not to cross-compile forever.
18:07 isBEKaml jnthn: wait, emit bytecodes from nqp. That's a *distant* goal. :)
18:08 Moukeddar left #perl6
18:09 Moukeddar_ is Perl ported to the .NET ?
18:09 jnthn isBEKaml: Well, on .Net we currently do large subset of NQP => ... => DNST => C# => .Net bytecode. That "just" leaves to write a DNST => .Net bytecode emitter. :)
18:09 jnthn Moukeddar_: Perl 5: no, afaik. Perl 6: see Niecza.
18:10 Moukeddar_ that's a good thing
18:11 isBEKaml jnthn: Don't you already have a compiler architecture builtin in C# ? You can compile C# code  programmatically, right? That could save you some time, I guess...
18:11 isBEKaml jnthn: that's instead of an external call to the compiler.
18:12 jnthn isBEKaml: Could happen, but tbh I don't think writing the bytecode emitter is so hard, tbh.
18:12 jnthn oops, too honest :)
18:12 jnthn I did work with .Net bytecode files before, so maybe I'm just less scared of them. :)
18:12 jnthn But probably it's best to generate more textual IL ASM first.
18:13 jnthn And then after that use the .Net APIs for generating bytecode files
18:13 isBEKaml jnthn: if you have the bytecode emitter, you don't need to generate source files at all. Since you'll have already validated the program structure with nqp's grammar and action steps.
18:13 mtk left #perl6
18:13 jnthn isBEKaml: Right, the "generate C#" is a temporary, "make something work" solution.
18:13 mtk joined #perl6
18:14 isBEKaml jnthn: Right, I'll take the same approach to ASM. Get something out first and tune it later. :)
18:15 jnthn Yes, small steps that produce something are good. :)
18:15 Moukeddar_ left #perl6
18:15 isBEKaml jnthn: though tbh, the "C#"ized java code looks alien to me... :)
18:15 isBEKaml .oO(C#ified)
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18:44 dalek niecza: 1a70b51 | pmurias++ | hoopl/ (4 files):
18:44 dalek niecza: [hoopl] fix the way facts are distributed by branching statements
18:44 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1a70b51e2b
18:44 dalek niecza: 7bf5ef9 | pmurias++ | hoopl/Nam.hs:
18:44 dalek niecza: [hoopl] fix a bug
18:44 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7bf5ef949e
19:00 takadonet rakudo: my %here;my @genomes=('yo','be','ad'); map { %here{$_}++ } , @genomes;  %here.perl.say;
19:00 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«{}␤»
19:02 jnthn sink fail?
19:02 takadonet Any idea to populate the hash without do a straight  assignment from the map since the map statement will be inside of a for loop
19:02 takadonet ?
19:03 jnthn rakudo: my %here;my @genomes=('yo','be','ad'); eager map { %here{$_}++ } , @genomes;  %here.perl.say;
19:03 p6eval rakudo ecc4ef: OUTPUT«{"yo" => 1, "be" => 1, "ad" => 1}␤»
19:03 tadzik heh, even google can get their servers overloaded
19:03 tadzik melange--
19:03 jnthn takadonet: In void context it's meant to force evaluation of the lazy list...but apparently doesn't...
19:03 takadonet jnthn: looks like it. Thanks
19:04 tadzik http://mdk.per.ly/2011/04/25/g​soc-the-tpf-accepted-students/
19:05 tadzik \o/
19:05 takadonet tadzik++!!!!
19:06 jnthn tadzik++ # yay!! :D
19:06 tadzik beer to everyone!
19:06 jnthn \o/
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19:11 colomon tadzik++ indeed!
19:11 tadzik moritz: are you there?
19:14 masak tadzik++!
19:15 tadzik Thank you guys :')
19:16 noganex_ left #perl6
19:16 moritz tadzik: yes
19:17 moritz tadzik++
19:17 tadzik moritz: I assume you are my mentor?
19:17 moritz tadzik: congratulations. Yes.
19:18 masak moritz++
19:18 moritz tadzik: and masak++ is backup mentor
19:18 clkao left #perl6
19:18 masak yay
19:18 masak it's the one thing in GSoC I haven't been so far ;)
19:18 masak well, that and organization overlord.
19:18 noganex joined #perl6
19:18 tadzik so I'm entering the Community Bending Period now
19:18 masak bend on!
19:18 * masak hands tadzik a beer
19:19 moritz tadzik: so in the next few weeks, we expect you to make contact with the community, set up your development environment and become familiar with the existing code base :-)
19:19 tadzik oh, and I get to know my mentor :)
19:19 moritz reread S26 maybe
19:19 * moritz waves hi
19:19 tadzik probably
19:19 tadzik oh hello Mr. Moritz
19:21 moritz tadzik: if you happen to travel to Germany in the next few weeks, we can community-bond IRL :-)
19:21 tadzik moritz: oh, I'd love too :)
19:22 moritz I just fear that my own family and travel plans don't permit me to easily
19:22 tadzik but I doubt I will :/
19:23 tadzik oh, I don't want to get on your (Your, Signe and Ronja)'s head :)
19:35 masak heads, surely ;)
19:36 tadzik oh of course :)
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19:45 masak ooh, IPv6. :)
19:46 Moukeddar where?
19:46 masak Moukeddar: in your sign-in thingy.
19:46 masak *** Moukeddar (Moukeddar@2002:295c:2f08::295c:2f08) has joined channel #perl6
19:46 Moukeddar hehe
19:46 Moukeddar i didn't know they were on IPv6
19:47 Moukeddar they didn't even inform me
19:47 masak I don't believe I've seen that before in here.
19:47 TimToady .oO(everyone wants the colon...)
19:47 masak :D
19:47 Moukeddar hehe
19:47 moritz :-)
19:47 Moukeddar i must be Speshul :)
19:47 Moukeddar that would explain why i was diconnected for 1 week
19:48 Moukeddar they were installing it right ?
19:48 masak finally resting on the IPv7th day.
19:48 Moukeddar when would that be
19:49 Moukeddar i checked here
19:49 Moukeddar http://www.whatismyipv6.net/
19:49 Moukeddar and i get the usual
19:49 Moukeddar Your IP is 41.92.47.8
19:49 Moukeddar :p
19:49 TimToady 295c:2f08 is that part of it
19:50 Moukeddar hehe
19:50 Moukeddar if my PC is on IPv6
19:50 Moukeddar would that explain why i get crappy download speed?
19:51 tadzik I doubt it
19:51 flussence 2002::/16 is 6to4
19:51 flussence fake IPv4 basically, you're just tunnelling over ipv4.
19:51 Moukeddar ah
19:51 flussence s:1st/4/6
19:51 Moukeddar must be the windows service
19:52 Moukeddar my ISP mus love me :)
19:52 Moukeddar must*
19:52 moritz why would your ISP care?
19:53 flussence nah, it's a client-side thing. My ISP barely has a clue but I could run 6to4 over it with a bit of effort.
19:53 Moukeddar no i mean they switched fast to IPv6
19:54 flussence chances are you just did some OS update that turned it on...
19:54 tadzik hi hi :)
19:54 flussence o/
19:55 sbp Moukeddar gets the colon!
19:55 Moukeddar hehe
19:56 Moukeddar the DL speed is kinda bad
19:57 flussence yeah, if it's 6to4 then it bounces all traffic off a single pre-defined IPv4 address running another endpoint...
19:57 SHODAN left #perl6
19:57 Moukeddar maaaan
19:57 Moukeddar i'll turn utorrent to use IPv6
19:57 Moukeddar would that help ?
19:57 flussence v4 would be faster
19:58 tadzik I hope you're downloading free music or Unix distros :)
19:58 Moukeddar tadzik, yes , free music and linux distro
19:58 Moukeddar that's all i do
19:58 Moukeddar i swear
19:58 tadzik ok, fine then
19:59 Moukeddar will it help with the speed ?
19:59 tadzik heh, like in this Java ad. "We're just enjoying some porn" - "I hope you're doing no Java, or Open-Source?"
19:59 masak Scala Johansen :D
20:00 Moukeddar hehe
20:00 tadzik my sohn is a monhster!
20:01 flussence oh, I remember seeing that one :)
20:01 ymasory_ left #perl6
20:02 tadzik I found it on reddit on a Lug meeting, and we watched it like 6 times that day
20:03 Moukeddar where can i get 10 bucks fast
20:03 Moukeddar i mean except prostitution
20:04 moritz try an ATM
20:04 tadzik yeah, those are quite friendly
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: fb7d90b | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: Toss unneeded old package installation code; remove a XXX comment that's been long dealt with.
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fb7d90b002
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: 8f36dee | jonathan++ | src/ModuleLoader.pm:
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: Explicitly stash the module loader object away somewhere we'll be able to find it even after old package installation code is dropped.
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8f36dee5dc
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: 25b6538 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: Get the regex interpolation tests passing again, after I busted 'em earlier.
20:05 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/25b6538f59
20:07 Moukeddar moritz, i need it on paypal
20:08 Moukeddar which sucks
20:08 Moukeddar i can't use online transactions
20:08 moritz Moukeddar: please try to stay a bit more on topic here
20:08 Moukeddar Ko
20:11 Moukeddar sorry
20:11 moritz jnthn: \o/ down to three failures
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20:58 masak chromatic++, as usual: http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2​011/04/civility-starts-with-me.html
20:58 jnthn moritz: Some aspects of those three tests are kinda bogus now (e.g. EXPORT is now lexical, not package scoped, HLL::Compiler is managed by NQP HLL compiler now since it's in that HLL).
20:59 jnthn moritz: Going to skip them for now as some of the bits there need a re-design, but it's not yet critical path stuff for Rakudo on 6model.
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21:01 masak tadzik: there are some examples of abusive behaviour linked from that post.
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21:05 masak I have a feeling the channels he's describing include #perl6 ;)
21:05 masak variations of both of those quotes have happened here recently.
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21:07 arnsholt masak: I had the exact same thought =)
21:09 masak I urge people to follow chromatic's advice at the bottom of the post, and speak up.
21:12 * masak posted a comment to the post
21:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: 4579af8 | jonathan++ | t/hll/0 (3 files):
21:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: Skip a few tests for now that need significant revision due to design/spec changes.
21:16 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4579af8b30
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21:19 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 134 commits to nqp by jnthn
21:19 jnthn nqp master has just been updated with the stuff I've been doing over the last several days.
21:21 moritz all hail the magic merge abilities of git
21:21 jnthn \o/
21:22 PerlJam jnthn: and rakudo survives?
21:22 jnthn There's a couple of mildly tricky problems left to solve, but the Epic Refactor is over
21:22 jnthn PerlJam: Rakudo uses nqp-rx, not new nqp.
21:22 PerlJam oh, I misread
21:23 jnthn PerlJam: Rakudo's nom branch will use new nqp.
21:23 moritz /home/moritz/p6/nqp/parrot_install/bin/parrot: symbol lookup error: dynext/nqp_ops.so: undefined symbol: Parrot_get_ctx_HLL_namespace
21:23 jnthn huh...
21:23 moritz should be Parrot_hll_get_ctx_HLL_namespace
21:23 * jnthn thought all of those had been corrected
21:23 * moritz too
21:24 jnthn Was it a problem in the ctmo branch?
21:24 moritz last I tested ctmo was fine
21:24 * moritz -> sleep
21:24 moritz oh, my master is too old
21:24 moritz nevermind
21:24 jnthn ah, OK
21:24 jnthn phew :)
21:25 jnthn Though I think that "kill this" comment may now be applicable :)
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21:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: 6e8751b | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
21:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: Remove a now-unrequired workaround.
21:27 dalek nqp/ctmo: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6e8751b662
21:28 jnthn nqp: say("alive?")
21:28 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«alive?␤»
21:28 jnthn nqp: class Foo is LolWut { }
21:28 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Can only use get_how on a RakudoObject␤current instr.: 'nqp;NQPClassHOW;compute_c3_mro' pc 1498 (gen/nqp-how.pir:430)␤»
21:28 jnthn Not updated yet. :)
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21:39 masak 'night, #perl6
21:39 masak thanks for being a place of civility and kindness.
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21:41 alester :-)
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21:53 jpr5 ~.
21:53 jpr5
21:53 jpr5 doh.
21:55 jnthn :)
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22:56 jnthn I blug at last: http://6guts.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/​separate-compilation-package-refactors​-and-gradual-typing-oh-boy-what-a-mix/
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