Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-05-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:08 sorear perl6: my $x = 999999; substr($x,2,2)++; say $x
00:08 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 7637:CORE.setting␤»
00:08 p6eval ..niecza v4-79-g79a8315: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: cannot increment a value of type Str␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 413 (CORE die @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 23 (CORE Mu.succ @ 4)␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0)␤  at /tmp/8sQatjnLEQ line 1 (MAIN mainline
00:08 p6eval ..@ 1)␤  at /home…
00:08 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«9910099␤»
00:08 sorear perl6: my $x = 999999; substr($x,2,2) += 1; say $x
00:08 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/lEttVy4EmT␤»
00:08 p6eval ..pugs, niecza v4-79-g79a8315: OUTPUT«9910099␤»
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01:14 mjreed what's a good way to deal with pre-lexer passes in PGE?
01:16 mjreed I'm thinking of things that don't fit well at the tokenizing level.  Things like C-style (as opposed to Lispy) macro expansion, or the way you can write "!" instead of "'." in INTERCAL, stuff like that.
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01:26 sorear mjreed: modify the string before parsing it
01:26 sorear mjreed: also, PGE is not maintained any more
01:28 mjreed so what are we supposed to write grammars in these days?
01:38 mjreed or, well, I assume we still write them as perl6 grammars... but what processes them if not pge?  I thought pge was what rakudo used.
01:39 benabik mjreed: We still use p6 grammars, but it's not implemented with PGE anymore IIRC.
01:39 sorear mjreed: We use actual Perl 6 grammars these days
01:39 sorear Using one of the Perl 6 subset implementations
01:40 sorear rather than a specialized grammar processor like PGE
01:41 mjreed ok.  docs says that rakudo *uses* pge as part of its implementation; guess that's out of date.
01:41 mjreed so I'll stop talking about PGE and just talk about perl 6 grammars/rules.
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01:42 sorear mjreed: Rakudo hasn't used PGE since February 2010
01:42 sorear and it was one of the last major users
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03:11 dalek niecza: 185c435 | sorear++ | Makefile:
03:11 dalek niecza: Add a Makefile rule to build and test release tarballs
03:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/185c435657
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04:01 newbee hi all...
04:02 sorear Hello newbee.
04:02 sorear Welcome to #perl6!
04:02 sorear You might want to pick a more unique name.  We've all been newbies at some time. :)
04:04 newbee oh, well, i started learning perl6 just 2 weeks ago :)
04:04 newbee btw, im here with a question :)
04:04 sorear Excellent.  We love those.
04:05 newbee how should i write something like this?      class TimeOfDay { has $.hour { where 0 >= $.hour <= 23 }; }
04:06 sorear class TimeOfDay { has $.hour where 0..^24 }
04:06 sorear if that doesn't work, try: subset Hour of Int where 0 ..^ 24; class TimeOfDay { has Hour $.hour }
04:07 newbee rakudo: class TimeOfDay { has Int $.hour where 0..23 };
04:07 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
04:07 sorear (either one will only work on Rakudo)
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04:11 newbee subset Hour of Int where 0 ..^ 24; class TimeOfDay { has Hour $.hour }; my $tod = TimeOfDay.new(hour => 12); say $tod.hour; my $tod2 = TimeOfDay.new(hour => 25); say $tod2.hour;
04:11 newbee rakudo: subset Hour of Int where 0 ..^ 24; class TimeOfDay { has Hour $.hour }; my $tod = TimeOfDay.new(hour => 12); say $tod.hour; my $tod2 = TimeOfDay.new(hour => 25); say $tod2.hour;
04:11 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«12␤25␤»
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04:13 newbee rakudo: class TimeOfDay { has Int $.hour where 0..23; };
04:13 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
04:17 newbee mmm it does not enforce the limit on "hour" :(
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04:18 sorear that's weird
04:18 sorear rakudo: say 25 ~~ (0 ..^ 24)
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04:18 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
04:20 newbee rakudo: say 25 ~~ (0..^24)
04:20 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
04:23 newbee ok, is late here, good night and thanks :)
04:23 sorear no problem, and come again!
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04:40 dalek niecza: 5fa26c5 | sorear++ | src/NieczaCompiler.pm6:
04:40 dalek niecza: Remove outdated use of GetNow internal call
04:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5fa26c580c
04:40 dalek niecza: 4d3df1b | sorear++ | / (2 files):
04:40 dalek niecza: Finish fixing up make reboot
04:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/4d3df1be3c
04:40 sorear I now have a niecza-v5.zip sitting on my hard drive, but I seem to have broken the GitHub file uploader
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05:10 dalek niecza: becc5ce | sorear++ | docs/announce.v5:
05:10 dalek niecza: Write v5 release announce
05:10 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/becc5ce210
05:10 dalek niecza: 506560a | sorear++ | FETCH_URL:
05:10 dalek niecza: Update bootstrap URL
05:10 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/506560a6f9
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05:15 sorear release announcement sent.
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06:08 moritz sorear++ # v5 of v6 :-)
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07:43 * sorear out
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08:15 tadzik it's almost like a real v6! :)
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08:23 snarkyboojum sorear: I'm amazed that "real multi dispatch" == "isn't as much cool new stuff as I'd like" - great release :)
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12:07 moritz std: m:s/[a| ]/
12:08 p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
12:08 moritz std: m/[a| ]/
12:08 p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/VBaNc7c86G line 1:␤------> [32mm/[a| [33m⏏[31m]/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      quantifier␤     regex atom␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 113m␤»
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12:15 takadonet morning all
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12:18 Moukeddar morning Sir
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12:24 moritz std: m/ /
12:24 p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/Ablb1Ce4Mi line 1:␤------> [32mm/ [33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting quantifier␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 113m␤»
12:24 moritz std: m:s/ /
12:24 p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
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12:38 mberends ++asparagus!
12:38 phenny mberends: 05 May 08:51Z <moritz> ask mberends if likes/fancies asparagus
12:39 mathw mmmm asparagus
12:39 mberends phenny, tell moritz yes, especially fresh in season
12:39 phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
12:41 mberends (the home region in .nl is the local asparagus epicentre :)
12:41 moritz \o/
12:41 phenny moritz: 12:39Z <mberends> tell moritz yes, especially fresh in season
12:41 mberends afk & # shopping and eating
12:41 mberends sorry moritz, gtg
12:41 moritz no problem
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12:46 colomon asparagus++
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12:51 moritz indeed
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12:55 tadzik szparagi?
12:55 moritz spargel in german
12:55 moritz so sounds vaguely correct
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12:59 tadzik phenny: "szparagi"?
12:59 phenny tadzik: "asparagus" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
12:59 tadzik aye
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13:03 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
13:04 pmichaud https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/master/results/orange-x86_64-201105051910.txt  # latest benchmark timing runs
13:04 takadonet pmichaud: morning
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13:10 tadzik pmichaud: good morning. -pl indicates the bacek's wonderpatch?
13:12 pmichaud tadzik: yes.
13:12 pmichaud I should probably add that to the report somewhere.
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13:46 colomon What's this about a wonderpatch?  (I see the benchmarks have made a big jump forward!)
13:47 moritz colomon: http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/parrot-dev/2011-May/005837.html
13:48 colomon huh.  what does the patch do?  (I mean, other than make rakudo faster.)
13:49 mathw what else does it need to do? :P
13:54 colomon What is the mechanism by which it makes rakudo faster?  :p
13:55 colomon BTW (reading threads) I'd argue that spectests are probably not ideal for benchmarking.
13:57 moritz agreed
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13:57 moritz more to the point, the only reason for using them is their availability
13:58 moritz nearly none of them focus on exercising real world use patterns, nor do many of them exercise specific groups of features performance-wise
13:59 tadzik json tests are a real-world example
13:59 pmichaud colomon: why are spectests not ideal for benchmarking, ooc?
13:59 pmichaud (I guess "what moritz++ said")
13:59 moritz also, they change
13:59 pmichaud I think it's a very useful tool... especially since that's the time sink that most of us developers see at the moment
13:59 pmichaud not the ones used here
14:00 moritz they often produce rather much IO for a non-IO benchmark
14:00 pmichaud the benchmarks in that report are identical between 2011.01 and 2011.04
14:00 pmichaud s/benchmarks/spectests/
14:00 pmichaud the harness is only using the spectests that are unchanged since 2011.01
14:01 colomon The main reason I was thinking is that the usage patterns are probably nothing like real world tasks.
14:01 sorear good * #perl6
14:01 pmichaud well, we can easily add more benchmarks now :)
14:01 colomon for instance, how many of the numerical tests in spectest check their results using strings?
14:01 colomon (the trig tests are an exception there, I think.)
14:01 moritz all that use is()
14:02 colomon moritz: right, that's what I was trying to suggest.  :)
14:02 pmichaud sure, but string equality is a fairly common operation
14:02 pmichaud it'd argue it's at least (or more) common and important than numeric equality anyway
14:02 colomon but it's not a fairly common numerical operation.
14:02 pmichaud but it's a fairly *common* operation
14:02 pmichaud I'm not benchmarking numerical performance, I'm benchmarking overall performance
14:02 colomon look, I'm not saying we don't want the spectests to be fast.
14:03 pmichaud the fact that the numerical tests are using string equality doesn't make them any less representative of overall real world tasks
14:03 colomon I just think you'll get more interesting information if you have string benchmarks, numeric benchmarks, etc.
14:04 pmichaud feel free to submit some :)
14:04 pmichaud https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench
14:04 moritz I think string benchmarks are the only ones where you have a chance of the operations being slower than the calls involved (on the parrot level)
14:04 colomon I have been submitting benchmarks for over a year now.
14:04 pmichaud okay, feel free to let me know where they are :)
14:05 pmichaud I guess they're in perl6/benchmarks?
14:06 * moritz mashes some Oreos in preparation of a milk shake
14:06 frettled Will someone benchmark moritz pre- and post-milkshake?
14:07 colomon https://github.com/perl6/bench-scripts
14:07 pmichaud colomon: which ones would you like to see run?
14:07 pmichaud ("all of them" might take too long, so let's prioritize a bit)
14:07 colomon give me a moment.
14:08 pmichaud no rush
14:08 pmichaud I won't be running any until later today anyway
14:08 pmichaud right now I've got another set running to test gms performance versus ms2 performance
14:09 colomon http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/first-benchmark-results/
14:10 colomon looking at that, I'd suggest trans-sprintf.pl, prime.pl, and pick-words.pl -- they all seem to have suffered significant regressions over the last year.
14:10 pmichaud okay, great
14:10 pmichaud colomon++
14:12 colomon It does make me think it might be worthwhile to sit down and write up simple benchmarks testing some common areas.  the collection in bench-scripts is certainly pretty random right now.
14:12 pmichaud well, I'm hoping to organize this all a bit soon
14:12 pmichaud since I have a nice harness now for running tests unattended over many different rakudo releases :)
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14:14 moritz frettled: my drinking performance seems highly dependent on the presence of milk shakes. Surprise, surprise :-)
14:14 frettled :D
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14:59 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/959083   # results of rakbench on 2011.04 with gms and ms2
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15:04 pmichaud what machine/os information would be good to capture in these benchmark reports?
15:05 flussence the stuff `lscpu` outputs would be informative...
15:06 pmichaud oooooh, nice
15:06 pmichaud didn't know that existed    flussence++
15:07 pmichaud I guess the output of "free" is helpful, too
15:07 moritz but please use free -m or so
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15:07 moritz I usually spend too much time counting digits otherwise :-)
15:07 pmichaud +1
15:08 pmichaud so, not "free -b" then?  ;-P
15:09 pmichaud well, I'll probably have the log record "free -b", and the report can make it smaller
15:10 colomon hmmm... it would be great to actually figure the amount of memory used by the process.  I don't know a good quick way of doing that, alas....
15:12 pmichaud someday we could add an option to the perl6 binary (or HLL::Compiler)  that dumps out the interpreter statistics just before exiting
15:13 pmichaud that might tell us total allocations of pmcs, memory used, etc.
15:13 * pmichaud eagerly awaits the arrival of his new hardware
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15:13 colomon that actually sounds like it would be really useful.  is there any reason it's not possible to do something like that now?
15:13 pmichaud tuits :-)
15:14 pmichaud it's definitely possible, just needs code
15:14 pmichaud also, perhaps it should also be an option to Parrot :)
15:14 colomon but is it low tuit (just needs summary output) or high tuit (say, stats aren't actually kept yet)?
15:14 pmichaud stats are kept already
15:14 pmichaud (looking)
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15:15 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/959131
15:17 pmichaud for example, GC_MARK_RUNS tells us how many mark runs have been performed :)
15:17 pmichaud TOTAL_PMCS tells us how many PMC allocations occurred
15:17 pmichaud etc.
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15:17 colomon that seems like it might be drastically important for benchmarking / profiling / etc
15:18 pmichaud maybe I'll add something to nqp-rx then
15:18 pmichaud won't help for previous releases, but could help for future ones
15:20 colomon would a nqp-rx fix potentially get lost when we land nom?
15:20 pmichaud I'm sure we'd port it or duplicate it in nom
15:22 colomon pmichaud++
15:23 * pmichaud really wishes he could see the gps location of the truck that is carrying his new machine
15:25 pmichaud afk for a while, break
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16:06 jnthn oh hai
16:06 jnthn weekend! \o/
16:06 colomon \o
16:07 colomon hmmm.... Google Code Jam starts today.
16:07 pmichaud did we get the Google Code Peanut Butter already?
16:07 colomon mmmmm.... peanut butter ....
16:08 jnthn Ewww...I don't like that stuff.
16:08 sorear hello jnthn
16:08 jnthn o/ sorear
16:09 sorear v5 didya see? :0
16:09 jnthn Yes :)
16:09 pmichaud I saw.  sorear++
16:09 jnthn I want to see how you unified protoregexes and protos.
16:09 jnthn That's...not something I'd really imagined doing.
16:09 pmichaud fwiw, I think it is something TimToady++ imagined :)
16:10 am0c oh hai all!
16:10 jnthn Yeah but...is it spec'd anywhere?
16:11 * pmichaud makes a backup in preparation for his new machine arriving later today
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16:19 pmurias sorear: hi
16:20 pmurias sorear: what's faster niecza on mono or on .net?
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16:23 sorear ask diakopter, I've never tried it on .net
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16:54 colomon pmichaud: so, what are the specs on this new machine of yours?
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17:21 Moukeddar Hello
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17:25 takadonet Moukeddar: hey
17:25 Moukeddar how are you doing?
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17:30 PerlJam buenos dias
17:31 sjohnson yo
17:34 jnthn hola
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17:51 sorear hello
17:53 takadonet sorear: hey
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18:13 tadzik hello
18:15 fglock tadzik: hi
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18:20 colomon \o
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18:44 masak greetings, carbon-based life forms.
18:45 jnthn o/ masak
18:49 sbp what's the word on the street, masak and jnthn?
18:50 masak um... "hi"? ;)
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18:50 flussence .oO( "bus lane 07:30-09:00" )
18:51 sbp at least make up some news if there isn't any
18:51 sbp imagine you woke up at a State of the Onion podium
18:51 masak there are news.
18:51 jnthn sbp: My trains to work AND home were on time.
18:51 sbp all those eyes watching you, expectantly
18:51 jnthn This is a shocking development.
18:51 flussence there's a patch that magically makes rakudo a bajillion (2-10) % faster!
18:52 sbp the track signals are probably being run from perl6 code now
18:52 flussence that's news to me.
18:52 sbp there we go, that's some news!
18:52 sbp is that in Star? where's the patch on Github?
18:53 flussence it's on some mailing list thing, in the log 3-4 hours back
18:53 flussence the numbers look promising though
18:53 masak things are still being investigated.
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18:53 colomon and most of the speed up just compensates for recent slow downs in Parrot, as far as I can tell.
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18:54 masak it's a Red Queen's race, for sure.
18:56 plobsing colomon: we also suspect non-GC influences in the earlier regression and are attempting to track that down too.
18:56 colomon plobsing++
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18:56 * colomon prefers the "March of the Black Queen"
18:57 sbp they should form a coalition side
18:57 sbp .g gms ms2 rakudo
18:57 phenny sbp: http://whiteknight.github.com/2011/04/16/imcc_branch_merge_aftermath
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19:18 colomon sbp: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.announce/2011/05/msg650.html
19:20 sbp ah, I heard about v5 earlier. grats sorear, and thanks colomon
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19:20 colomon It feels like the news of the moment to me (other than the benchmarking stuff)  :)
19:20 masak I'm planning to send off an email to p6l.
19:20 masak it's about base conversion.
19:21 jnthn Will it still belong to us after the conversion?
19:21 masak I assume that was a pun.
19:21 colomon all of it
19:21 masak ah. :)
19:21 jnthn colomon++
19:21 Tene I was super early to work yesterday, so I turned off the alarms on my phone so they didn't bother me while I was working.  Of course, I forgot to turn them back on, so I slept in very late today.  :)
19:22 Tene That's my news for the morning, at least.
19:23 masak ;)
19:25 masak anyway. three questions: (1) if :2<1010> etc do the conversion *from* a base, what's the way to do the conversion *into* a base? (2) isn't :2<1010> just as ambiguous as bin('1010') (and 'oct' and 'hex') wrt conversion direction? (especially like this: :2($var))
19:25 masak (3) what's a way to convert from a base that isn't a constant?
19:25 masak all of these questions have come up in problem-solving situations and, IMO, need addressing.
19:26 sbp I vote YES on Proposition 2
19:27 masak so... :2<1010> doesn't *really* solve any problems better than bin('1010') ...?
19:27 masak except for maybe eliminating three builtin subs and replacing them with literal syntax.
19:28 sbp well it genericises the problem
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19:28 sbp just does it in a very anthropantagonistic way
19:29 masak how esquivalient.
19:29 colomon masak: well, clearly :2<1010> is easier to generalize than bin('1010'), for what that's worth.
19:30 Tene masak: 1) use fmt
19:30 Tene iirc
19:30 masak yes, but to what end? now I can do :19<blah>? yippie.
19:31 masak that was for colomon.
19:31 masak Tene: do you have any spec on that?
19:31 masak Tene: that's a perfectly good solution if it's true.
19:31 benabik Are numeric adverbs supposed to be generic base conversion, or it it just for literals?
19:31 masak Tene: otherwise we should probably make it so :)
19:31 sbp well, flickr short links use base58 for example
19:31 sbp strange bases aren't unheard of
19:31 masak benabik: depends what you mean. :4($n) works fine. :$b(42) doesn't.
19:32 sbp but it uses a strange lexical table anyway
19:32 benabik masak: I meant the first.  And that seems slightly odd to me.
19:32 sbp which may be an issue, one that ought to be recognised
19:32 masak sbp: I guess my point is that I wouldn't cry blood if :58($flickr-url) were from-base(58, $flickr-url)
19:32 benabik It's much less ambiguous if it's only for literals.
19:32 sbp I'd prefer the latter. it's clearer
19:33 masak sbp: me too.
19:33 sbp perhaps allow the table as the third arg
19:33 sbp which is '123456789abcdefghijkmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZ'
19:33 sbp from-base(58, $number, $table)
19:33 masak sbp: hm, but that's sending in 58 twice.
19:33 masak sbp: that feels suboptimal.
19:34 sbp you'd want num or table as first arg, num from table length if it's a string?
19:34 masak that feels dangerous too.
19:34 Tene masak: where's the ambiguity in :2/&bin ?
19:34 sbp agreed
19:34 masak Tene: look at the perldoc for bin/oct/hex.
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19:35 masak Tene: 'To present something as hex, look into "printf", "sprintf", or "unpack".'
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19:35 masak Tene: people often get the direction wrong, because the name of the builtin *doesn't say*.
19:36 sbp I thought of :Nary<...>, e.g. :2ary<1010>
19:36 sbp and :base2<1010>
19:36 masak std: :base2<1010>
19:36 p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
19:36 Tene masak: that wouldn't have even occurred to me.  Obviously if I wanted formatting into a string, I'd use fmt, sprintf, etc.
19:37 Tene :2 is str->num, fmt is -> str
19:37 masak Tene: things look obvious on the path you're on. there are lots of paths. :)
19:37 sbp masak: what does (3) mean?
19:37 * Tene nods.
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19:37 sbp oh, nevermind, I understand
19:37 sbp $myBase
19:37 masak sbp: the opposite of :2<1010>
19:38 masak sbp: and Tene says that's .fmt, but hasn't proved it yet.
19:38 sbp that was (1)
19:38 sbp (3) was non constant bases
19:38 masak oh, sorry.
19:38 masak yeah.
19:38 masak (3) is :$b<123>
19:38 masak std: my $b = 5; say :$b<123>
19:38 p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
19:38 Tene masak: wait, you want facts and evidence from me, instead of rumours and superstition?  I think you're thinking of a different Tene.
19:39 sbp that could use $_. my $b = 5; say :<123>...
19:39 sbp er, my $_ = 5
19:39 masak Tene: truth is, I'm lazy and want someone else to go to the spec. :)
19:39 Tene I have no idea if the spec currently agrees with me; I just believe that it should.
19:39 masak Tene: fwiw, so do I.
19:39 masak Tene: could we also dream up a syntax before we confirm? :P
19:39 sbp that'd actually be kind of nice for when you're always doing something in a particular base
19:40 masak Tene: oh, and .fmt is just a thin veneer over sprintf
19:41 sbp any reason why there can't be adverbial AND functional forms?
19:42 masak ...because the adverbial form is just a more limited, confusing version of the functional form...?
19:42 Tene perl6: say 25.fmt("%2x")
19:42 p6eval niecza v5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method fmt in class Num␤  at /tmp/W9MgnE_xwr line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 3)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1311 (CORE C552_ANON @ 2)␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1312 (CORE module-CORE @ 39)␤  at
19:42 p6eval ../home/p6eval/niec…
19:42 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«19␤»
19:42 masak sbp: there's this general idea that we don't want to do things if they're bad... :)
19:43 Tene bleh, no, that already means something.
19:43 sbp masak: what if you're constantly using a particular base in some code and want to express it succinctly?
19:43 masak sbp: write a one-letter wrapping function.
19:43 masak sbp: doesn't get shorter than that. :)
19:44 masak put it in the smallest lexical scope possible. everyone wins.
19:44 colomon $*NUMERICAL_BASE = 15
19:44 masak Perl 6 allows you to locally mutate the language without harming anyone further away.
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19:45 masak <snarkyboojum> sorear: I'm amazed that "real multi dispatch" == "isn't as much cool new stuff as I'd like" - great release :)
19:45 masak +1
19:45 masak sorear++
19:46 sbp yeah? how trivial is it to macroise numbers into trinary or something?
19:46 sbp at some point, mutation isn't worth it
19:46 masak phenny: "sparris"?
19:46 phenny masak: "asparagus" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
19:46 sbp if the setup will exceed the benefit
19:47 masak sbp: with some appropriately twisted pragma, you could make what colomon++ suggested work.
19:47 masak except that it would probably have to be parsing at compile-time, since that's when literals are evaulated.
19:48 masak (so a dynamical probably isn't a great idea.)
19:48 colomon good point
19:50 masak but the general point holds.
19:51 masak we can mutate the Perl 6 grammar to accept anything as a numeric literal.
19:51 masak my $a = THIRTEEN AND A HALF;
19:52 sbp yeah, but again, you have to have the appropriate cost:benefit ratio
19:52 sbp just because something is possible doesn't make it feasible or sensible
19:52 sbp but you can make it feasible or sensible by changing the syntax to increase the cost:benefit ratio
19:53 masak right.
19:53 sbp which is why I was wondering how trivial it would be
19:53 masak Perl 6 will introduce real DSLs.
19:53 masak I'm looking forward to that.
19:54 sbp I can imagine people going quite mad with the DSLs :-)
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19:55 masak imagine a Prolog-like DSL in Perl 6. or a Constraint Programming one. or a DSL for making cute ASCII diagrams.
19:55 f00li5h joined #perl6
19:55 masak (I threw the last one in there because I don't want people to things that "DSL == cute sub/method names") :)
19:55 masak think*
19:56 masak ok. I'll write my email to p6l now.
19:56 masak thanks sbp and Tene and colomon for the input ;)
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20:03 sbp a DSL for writing subs in befunge...
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20:10 masak yeah!
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20:12 masak "Use of the functional form on anything that is not a string will throw an exception explaining that the user has confused a number with the textual representation of a number.  This is to catch errors such as a C<:8(777)> that should have been C<< :8<777> >>, or the attempt to use the function in reverse to produce a textual representation from a number."
20:12 masak that's S02:3276.
20:13 masak and that answers my question (2), I think.
20:22 Tene http://i.imgur.com/VZOiv.jpg -- Camelia cosplay?
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20:26 sbp butterfly dressed up as a camel? could be
20:26 masak Tene: "expect to hear from us" -- O'Reilly lawyers :P
20:27 pmurias masak: re DSL is that necessarily a good thing?
20:27 masak pmurias: anything and everything can be overused. nothing new over the sun.
20:28 pmurias my impression of DSL is that they trade of flexibility for cute syntax
20:28 masak pmurias: but yes, I believe it can be used for good.
20:28 masak pmurias: they do.
20:28 masak pmurias: that's because they're domain-specific :P
20:29 masak point is, Perl 6 will be a general language with the extra ability to turn into expertly specialized languages.
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20:30 masak Tene: I thought you were going to post http://pic.plover.com/ :)
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20:31 Tene masak: that's supposed to represent perl 5 and 6?
20:33 masak Tene: those are mjd's daughters.
20:33 Tene I recognize plover.com as MJD, but I'm not seeing any other context for that image
20:33 Tene Oh.  Why did you expect that for "camelia cosplay", then?
20:33 masak dunno. they look colorful :)
20:33 masak and one of them floats in the air.
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20:34 masak actually, that image comes the closest to what I'd imagine a Camelia-hackergirl t-shirt looking like.
20:34 masak cool, well-drawn, happy and colorful :)
20:34 tadzik I'd wear that
20:35 tadzik though it will probably be recognised by even less people than the NLPW t-shirt :)
20:37 Tene masak: given the context you presented, it came across as "fancy magical powers => 6, carries a huge sword => 5"
20:38 tadzik I thought it carries a swiss army chainsaw
20:38 masak Tene: I like the analogy my lack of context forced your imagination to apply :)
20:40 Tene i remember a while back, my girl was drawing a stylized camelia-inspired anime girl, but I don't remember why, or where that ended up.
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20:40 masak as to the why, it was because I asked for one. :)
20:40 masak I'd love such a t-shirt.
20:42 tadzik masak: we can order some and sale/award them on the YAPC
20:43 tadzik and the zebra t-shirts of course
20:44 masak tadzik: I should try to draw up the girl-with-wings that I can envision. the polar bear has emboldened me somewhat. :)
20:47 Tene masak: apparently, nothing google knows about links to pic.plover.com; how did you run across it?
20:47 Tene masak: polar bear?
20:47 masak Tene: mjd's twitter feed.
20:47 masak Tene: http://conferences.yapceurope.org/npw2011/
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20:48 masak what I'm imagining for the t-shirt is a girl, with the proportions of Lilo http://www.imdb.com/media/rm4283406592/tt0275847 , the perspective in "Head First Design Patterns" http://www.amazon.com/First-Design-Patterns-Elisabeth-Freeman/dp/0596007124/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1304714793&amp;sr=8-1
20:49 masak ...and wings. round ones, like on a fairy or a butterfly.
20:49 masak and with the same "attitude" as mjd's daughters in the picture.
20:49 masak confident, playful, relaxed.
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21:20 masak rakudo: sub phi { (1 + sqrt(5)) / 2 }; sub logphi { log($^n)/log(phi) }; for 2..20 -> $n { say floor($n + logphi( sqrt(5) * (logphi(sqrt(5) * $n) + $n) - 5 + 3/$n) - 2) }
21:20 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«4␤6␤7␤9␤10␤11␤12␤14␤15␤16␤17␤18␤19␤20␤22␤23␤24␤25␤26␤»
21:20 masak an explicit formula for generating non-Fibonacci numbers.
21:20 masak http://arxiv.org/abs/1105.1127
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22:53 TiMBuS Everything about this language sounds great. If I could make a small suggestion though -- I often find myself limited in C++ due to its inability to directly work with fractional indices and arrays. For instance, I should be able to do some_array[0.5] to access the second half of the first element of the array and the first half of the second. I know I could make a template for this but it really should be
22:53 TiMBuS a direct language feature.
22:53 TiMBuS I guess it's just one of those things the C++ guys didn't have enough foresight to put into the language when they first designed it.
22:54 masak er.
22:54 TiMBuS :D
22:55 masak the feature is actually *under*specified.
22:55 masak what does 'access the second half... and the first half...' mean?
22:56 plobsing unaligned accesses, I would guess.
22:56 jnthn There will be modules.
22:57 jnthn TiMBuS: augment class List { multi method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Num $n) { ...stuff... } } # it's this easy ;-)
22:59 masak hm... Num, or Real?
22:59 masak maybe Num, actually.
22:59 jnthn I Really don't know...
22:59 masak :)
22:59 jnthn .oO( Complex ;-) )
23:00 plobsing all this time, I've been wasting all this imaginary memory my machine has
23:00 TiMBuS all that space that you could have packed more ints into
23:01 TiMBuS memory page tetris
23:01 plobsing memory invaders
23:02 TiMBuS pack man
23:02 sorear I think I'll try and get the numerics hierarchy working in niecza next
23:06 masak \o/
23:07 * sorear is trying to work out details...
23:07 masak sorear: how's the Yapsi support going? I'm worrying about Yapsi fragmenting once it lands...
23:07 sorear "fragmenting"?
23:09 sorear hrm, I thought I had numerics hierarchy listed under yapsi-required
23:10 masak I think Yapsi mostly uses Ints.
23:11 masak yes, well. fragmenting into a codebase that works on Rakudo and one that works on Yapsi, without any coordination between the two.
23:11 masak er, s/Yapsi/Niecza/
23:11 sorear ah.
23:12 sorear jnthn: does Rakudo/NOM support "subset" yet?
23:12 jnthn sorear: rakudo/nom doesn't even compile yet!
23:12 masak so... no? :P
23:12 jnthn :P
23:12 jnthn Gee, people expect me to like, do stuff. :P
23:13 masak ("damnit, why can't he give us a straight answer!") :P
23:13 jnthn NO NO NO NO NO
23:13 masak /o\
23:13 jnthn :P
23:14 masak rakudo: sub rot13($_) { .subst("A..Z" => "N..ZA..M", "a..z" => "n..za..m") }; say rot13("hakank")
23:14 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«hakank␤»
23:14 masak that's a bug, methinks.
23:14 * masak submits rakudobug
23:14 jnthn huh...yes.
23:14 jnthn wait
23:14 jnthn did you mean .trans?
23:14 masak d'oh!
23:15 masak rakudo: sub rot13($_) { .trans("A..Z" => "N..ZA..M", "a..z" => "n..za..m") }; say rot13("hakank")
23:15 p6eval rakudo 6ae3c9: OUTPUT«unxnax␤»
23:15 masak I even had S05 up *reading* about .trans!
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23:16 * sorear looks at the ng implementation of subset
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23:16 sorear is ng the canonical stable name for "Rakudo" between Feb10 and Jul11?
23:17 jnthn sorear: ng was the name of the branch that becamse master.
23:17 * masak still calls it 'ng' sometimes
23:17 masak I was probably the last alpha holdout.
23:17 jnthn sorear: Generally I was delighted the branch was over and happy to forget the letters "ng". I'll probably feel the same about the "nom" branch once I get through it too.
23:18 masak ...and then we'll release Rakudo Starve.
23:18 jnthn Because people are hungry for the improvements? :P
23:19 masak om nom improvements
23:19 jnthn object model! new object model!
23:20 sorear wait, wait, seriously?  The ng binder calls ACCEPTS to do all type chekcing?
23:20 jnthn sorear: Yeah. The nom one won't. :)
23:20 masak sorear: when you implement subtypes, please be aware of http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=78322 :)
23:20 jnthn sorear: It's "trivially correct", I guess...
23:21 masak 'night, #perl6
23:21 jnthn sorear: Note it does a bit of caching too.
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23:21 jnthn sorear: But nom will look quite different there.
23:22 jnthn Mostly because ACCEPTS should call some type checking primitive, not be the type checking primitive.
23:24 sorear jnthn: Can you explain the bug masak linked?
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23:25 * jnthn looks
23:25 jnthn sorear: Ah, that one. It just says "verify the condition this subset is based on is true before checking this subset's extra where clause"
23:26 jnthn sorear: Confusingly, last I looked it *appeared* that's what Rakudo already seemed to be doing :/
23:26 sorear jnthn: I mean I'm looking at the Rakudo sources and it's not making sense
23:26 jnthn sorear: In what way?
23:26 sorear The code looks like it should be working!
23:26 sorear jnthn: How does perl6.ops:517 interact with nested subsets?
23:27 jnthn This sounds familiar :/
23:28 jnthn subtype_realtype should always point to a "nominal type"
23:28 jnthn e.g. it's not a pointer to the direct "parent"
23:28 jnthn Or at least, it's not meant to be.
23:29 jnthn yeah, looks like the code does the right thing with that.
23:30 sorear erm, doesn't that cause the intervening substype constraints to be ignored?
23:30 jnthn That's not used for the checking
23:30 jnthn It's used for working out what's the nominal type vs the constraint type.
23:30 sorear oh, it's using the subtype itself as the constraint
23:31 sorear Even $x doesn't become Int $x where * %% 2; it becomes Int $x where Even
23:31 jnthn Right
23:31 sorear jnthn: Do you think that subsets need their own STables?
23:31 jnthn I plan to write a SubsetHOW.
23:31 jnthn (so yes)
23:32 jnthn Need to refactor the type cache a bit first.
23:32 jnthn Really the issue is that they need their own type object
23:32 jnthn And having an STable just follows on from that.
23:33 jnthn Suspect enums fall into the same category.
23:33 PerlJam If we keep them in a STable, can we call the HOrses?
23:34 jnthn :P
23:34 * jnthn suspects he should sleep soonish
23:34 jnthn Want to actually do something this weekend
23:34 jnthn Like, hack on nom...and try to beat my Russian into less awful shape. :)
23:36 jnthn 'night o/
23:38 cdarroch left #perl6
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23:44 sorear learning Russian is a goal of mine too!
23:44 sjohnson cool
23:59 keeth left #perl6

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