Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-05-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:55 Tene colomon: you should callgrind the callgrind
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01:22 plobsing_ ping pmichaud, jnthn
01:24 pmichaud plobsing_: pong
01:24 pmichaud (yay, I have a preliminary Rakudo subroutine counter running!)
01:24 plobsing_ I've been working on a fix for zavolaj
01:24 plobsing_ http://nopaste.snit.ch/45257
01:24 colomon \\o//
01:24 colomon plobsing_++
01:25 plobsing_ but I can't seem to get rakudos reference wrapping/unwrapping right
01:27 colomon pmichaud: was that 262724 calls to Rakudo_binding_bind_llsig?  I now have kcachegrind running on my Mac and accessing the callgrind output on my Linux box.
01:28 pmichaud colomon: something like that, yes.
01:29 pmichaud plobsing_: some of those assignments might be an issue
01:29 pmichaud but jnthn++ would probably have to be the one to help out from here
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01:31 colomon so.... one line of the sin.t (towards the end) is 102 function calls
01:31 pmichaud could be
01:31 colomon is_approx(asin(:x(DifferentReal.new(0.707106781186548)), :base(Degrees)), 45, "asin(:x(DifferentReal), :base(Degrees)) - 45");
01:32 colomon is the line
01:32 pmichaud I have a logging system set up locally that captures the names of the caller and called subs
01:32 colomon that's based on a profile run with it and a profile run with it commented out
01:32 pmichaud 102 function calls doesn't sound too far off the mark to me for that one
01:32 pmichaud (whether it should actually be that many is a valid question :-)
01:32 plobsing_ phenny: tell jnthn I have a preliminary fix for zavolaj (http://nopaste.snit.ch/45257), but somewhere rakudo's reference wraping/unwrapping is tripping me up
01:32 phenny plobsing_: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
01:33 pmichaud just creating the 0.707106781...  value is going to be a ton of calls
01:33 pmichaud (because Rakudo does it at runtime)
01:33 colomon pmichaud: I'll tell you how many in about 20 minutes.
01:33 pmichaud :)
01:38 pmichaud top Rakudo block calls for sin.t:  http://gist.github.com/971584
01:39 colomon upgrade_to_num_if_needed ... ah
01:39 pmichaud last night I tried moving that to be PIR instead of Perl 6... it only made a small difference
01:41 pmichaud oh, outstanding
01:41 pmichaud so, since it's obvious that .item is a hot path -- we might get a huge win by moving it to PIR instead of Perl 6
01:41 pmichaud especially since all it does is return 'self'
01:41 pmichaud (for Mu)
01:42 pmichaud we'd save a bunch of PMC creations by doing that
01:43 colomon when is .item called?
01:43 pmichaud whenever something is needed in item context -- e.g., assignment to a scalar
01:44 pmichaud just looking at the code generated for Mu.item -- we create at least twelve PMCs per invocation
01:45 colomon !!!
01:45 pmichaud oh, maybe nine
01:45 pmichaud still
01:47 colomon This is "method item { self; }" we're talking about here?!
01:47 pmichaud yes
01:47 colomon dang
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01:51 johnjohn101 any date on release
01:51 pmichaud it's been released :)
01:52 flussence the last one was 2 weeks ago ;)
01:54 flussence oh wait, niecza v5 was released last week too. I bet there were more compilers I'm missing too.
01:54 johnjohn101 does it do threading yet?
01:54 pmichaud no, we don't have threading yet.
01:54 flussence yes, niecza does
01:54 flussence (iirc)
01:55 johnjohn101 ok i see rakudo star is out
01:56 pmichaud colomon: the approach I ended up taking creates a new opcode just for recording subroutine entry
01:56 johnjohn101 niecza, does it have a web site?
01:56 pmichaud that way we can put it on routine that don't use bind_llsig
01:56 pmichaud *routines
01:56 pmichaud e.g., cheats/ and builtins/
01:57 colomon pmichaud: does that require a parrot update, or is it npq/rakudo specific?
01:57 pmichaud it's rakudo specific
01:57 pmichaud no parrot update
01:57 colomon sweet
01:57 pmichaud it would make sense to go into nqp (not -rx)
01:58 johnjohn101 ok i see niecza works with mono..
02:03 colomon pmichaud: glancing at your output again, what catches my eye is div.  I think that's only called internally from Rat (in sin.t, anyway).
02:04 pmichaud sure, we have lots of rat operations
02:07 colomon that's going to be almost all decimal constant construction, I think.
02:09 colomon having trouble getting kcachegrind to open the third file.   stupid computers...
02:11 colomon arrrrgh.  ran against the wrong sin.t file.
02:14 pmichaud there's a "div" in Real.pm
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02:14 sorear good * #perl6
02:14 pmichaud (used for infix:<mod> apparently)
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02:14 colomon yeah, probably not a big issue for sin.t
02:15 mishnik hi
02:15 pmichaud updated list after instrumenting the builtins:  http://gist.github.com/971619
02:16 sorear johnjohn101: Hi!
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02:29 sorear johnjohn101: is github.com/sorear/niecza enough?
02:29 sorear johnjohn101: if not, what do you want to see on a website?
02:32 johnjohn101 sorear: that's what i found.   I may have to ease into perl 6.
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02:49 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/971866 # calling details for sin.t
02:49 pmichaud afk, dinner and break
02:49 dalek rakudo: e54eeca | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
02:49 dalek rakudo: Initial implementation of Parrot sub logging (sublog) -- this
02:49 dalek rakudo: enables us to log each entry into various Rakudo and Parrot
02:49 dalek rakudo: subroutines (for profiling and optimization).
02:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e54eecaabb
02:49 dalek rakudo: f81d740 | pmichaud++ | tools/sublog-report.pl:
02:49 dalek rakudo: Add a simple tool to process the files produced from RAKUDO_SUBLOG.
02:49 dalek rakudo: For the moment it simply returns a count of the number of times each
02:49 dalek rakudo: subroutine is entered.
02:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f81d7406ea
02:49 dalek rakudo: afd9577 | pmichaud++ | src/cheats/ (14 files):
02:49 dalek rakudo: Instrument cheat subs with x_enter_sublog opcodes upon entry.
02:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/afd957754e
02:49 dalek rakudo: e952e29 | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/ (35 files):
02:49 dalek rakudo: Instrument builtins/ with "x_enter_sublog".
02:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e952e295a4
02:49 dalek rakudo: 25fce41 | pmichaud++ | tools/sublog-report.pl:
02:49 dalek rakudo: Add some more details to tools/sublog-report.pl .
02:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/25fce41f0a
02:49 dalek rakudo: be887ad | pmichaud++ | tools/sublog-report.pl:
02:49 dalek rakudo: Update tools/sublog-report.pl with some basic documentation for
02:49 dalek rakudo: how to use it.
02:49 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/be887ad10b
02:53 colomon pmichaud++
02:55 colomon May be a while before I get to playing with it, because I've got an extremely busy weekend and a wicked $work bug that needs to be done by Monday on top of it.  But I really look forward to working it out.
02:55 colomon s/working it out/playing with it extensively/
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03:12 pmichaud yes, me too :)
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05:03 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/971937  # result of rewriting Mu.item (a hotpath) into PIR
05:04 pmichaud basically we save the cost of creating (and discarding) 470,000 PMCs
05:04 * pmichaud runs the full suite
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05:31 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/971944  # the full rakbench suite after rewriting Mu.item
05:31 pmichaud looks like overall a 8%+ improvement, except for rx.t (it gets slower for some reason, likely solvable)
05:31 pmichaud I'm in favor of applying the change, but would like opinions first
05:32 pmichaud note that we even get a 10% improvement in *startup*
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05:36 sorear yaya
05:39 PerlJam Is that the subid in parens?
05:39 pmichaud yes
05:39 pmichaud so that we can distinguish same-named subs
05:39 PerlJam Why are some like "new (new)" ?
05:39 pmichaud those are generally written in PIR, and thus don't have a PAST-generated subid
05:39 pmichaud (but the subid is in fact "new")
05:40 PerlJam I haven't looked at the diff yet, but how hard would it be to add timing info?
05:41 pmichaud I can put timestamps in, yes.  I'm not sure it's useful.
05:41 pmichaud there's no notion of "exiting" a sub here.
05:41 pmichaud just entrance.
05:41 PerlJam Hmm.
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05:48 * sorear looks at tools/sublog-report.pl
05:48 * sorear wonders what to think of it
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05:54 * pmichaud heads to bed
06:04 sorear bye
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06:58 jnthn yay YAPC::Russia :)
06:58 phenny jnthn: 01:32Z <plobsing_> tell jnthn I have a preliminary fix for zavolaj (http://nopaste.snit.ch/45257), but somewhere rakudo's reference wraping/unwrapping is tripping me up
07:02 jnthn Will take a look later. :)
07:03 moritz good morning
07:04 sorear hi jnthn!!
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07:07 jnthn privet ;)
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07:10 jnthn pmichaud++ # call counts!
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07:16 sorear hey mberends!
07:16 mberends hi sorear!
07:18 jnthn mberends! \o/
07:19 mberends hi jnthn, what are you doing awake so early? ;)
07:19 * moritz joins the happy familiy
07:19 moritz different time zone? :-)
07:19 jnthn mberends: Being three timezones east of you :P
07:21 * moritz confused by RAKUDO_SUBLOG
07:22 moritz it's not easy to run a spectest run with it
07:22 moritz maybe I need to hack the harness
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07:27 moritz ah yes
07:30 moritz TAP::Harness++ # having callbacks for the exec => param
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07:34 * moritz wonders if his available disc space is enough
07:35 jnthn moritz: You going to profile the whole spectests? :)
07:35 moritz jnthn: if my disc allows it, yes
07:36 jnthn ;)
07:36 moritz I just wonder what the output means
07:36 moritz is the list of indent subs the list of callers?
07:36 jnthn moritz: e.g. in https://gist.github.com/971866
07:36 jnthn Yes
07:36 jnthn It's number of calls and sub
07:36 jnthn then indented below it the top call sites
07:37 jnthn And counts of those
07:37 moritz I'm a bit surprised that CREATE is leading the list by a clear margin
07:37 jnthn It's called everytime we create an object.
07:38 * moritz wonders which ACCEPTS calls WHAT that often
07:38 tadzik good morning!
07:39 moritz now in S05, and 340M of logs
07:39 moritz good morning tadzik
07:42 tadzik what's the Mu.item rewrite?
07:43 AlexKotov joined #perl6
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07:46 AlexKotov Hi, uKibab!
07:46 uKibab Hi Alex
07:46 AlexKotov :) YAPC::Russia - 2011 is starting now!
07:47 tadzik hello hackathoners!
07:47 tadzik AlexKotov: I saw you had some panda/windows issues. Back in the neutro days I wanted it to be windows-friendly, but there was no windows user to try it out. If you want to have a module installer on windows, that may be your day
07:48 * mberends shoulda been in Moscow, but the UK post (almost) eated his passport :(
07:48 uKibab mberends: that's sad :-(
07:48 tadzik what happened!
07:48 tadzik ?
07:49 AlexKotov Hi, Martin! Today is Saturday, not big chance that post will deliver it today :(
07:49 mberends Visa application posted priority 29th April, arrived at agency 10th May :P
07:50 AlexKotov tadzik: yes, some windows issues are easy to fix
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07:51 AlexKotov tadzik: for example, folder that is bypassed to wget ($HOME) should be quited - that will help
07:51 tadzik did you mean: quoted? :)
07:52 * sorear out
07:52 tadzik AlexKotov: want to fix that or should I? I have nowhere to test it anyway
07:52 tadzik mberends: heh, ask the Perl Foundation when did they receive my CLA :P
07:53 AlexKotov tadzik: I'm on the conference for the weekend, so better you do quotation for wget pathes
07:53 AlexKotov *NIX will not be broken, Windows will be fixed :)
07:54 tadzik AlexKotov: I don't see how a conference (especially YAPC) interferes, but ok :)
07:54 moritz http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/sublog.log.gz # number of calls for the spectests upto S06-signature
07:54 tadzik there's no more than one wget call, is there?
07:57 AlexKotov I think one (didn't look inside installer actually)
07:58 tadzik I don't think sublog-report.pl likes "... and 348 more" in the input. Should it be ignored or something maybe?
07:58 moritz tadzik: the "... and 348 more" are from the *output* of sublog-report.pl
07:58 AlexKotov BTW, additional instruction for windows users - is to download wget.exe and copy it into folder available in $PATH :)
07:59 moritz tadzik: don't feed the scripts output to the script itself :-)
08:00 tadzik oh! :)
08:01 tadzik I like how the new sublogging doesn't add any overhead
08:01 moritz it does not?
08:02 tadzik panda list ran 15.86 before, and 15.88 after
08:06 tadzik http://nopaste.snit.ch/45298 -- logs for say "Hello, world!"
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08:19 bessarabov 2 photos from the stage from yapc in moscow http://friendfeed.com/bessarabov/b62377d1/perl6-hackathon-results-on-yapc
08:19 moritz those guys look vaguley familiar :-)
08:20 bessarabov =)
08:21 jnthn bessarabov: ooh, thakns for taking :)
08:21 * jnthn was crazy enough to try and introduce himself in Russian :)
08:21 jnthn Dunno if anybody understood ;)
08:21 tadzik hey, I know those guys :)
08:22 bessarabov jnthn, well, you have an accent, but it is easy to understand your russian =)
08:22 jnthn bessarabov: Oh, at this point I'm happy if it's just understandable :)
08:22 jnthn I get to speak it like, once a year or so :)
08:23 jnthn tadzik: (hello world logs) so that's where we spend time at startup. Not too surprising that we create lots of stuff...but it looks like quite a bit.
08:27 jnthn Why does .Bool create though... :/
08:27 moritz it creates a new Bool::{True,False}?
08:27 jnthn I'd...hope not.
08:28 jnthn Not 282 times
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08:34 tadzik :D
08:34 tadzik is that all the PHASERS blocks we don't use?
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08:46 stasy hi everybody
08:46 AlexKotov stasy: Hi
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09:50 tadzik that reminds me, I still have the NLPW pictures not yet uploaded anywhere
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10:29 dalek nqp: 372e310 | jonathan++ | src/6model/reprs/P6opaque.c:
10:29 dalek nqp: Fix crash when we have a typed attribute but the meta-attribute doesn't expose a .box_target.
10:29 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/372e31075f
10:30 tadzik what does the » character stand for in rules?
10:30 tadzik ||  .*? \n '=' 'end' \h+ $<identifier> » \N* -- from Perl6/Grammar.pm
10:30 moritz right word boundary
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10:30 tadzik ok, thanks
10:31 tadzik >> too?
10:31 jnthn think that's just the texas version of it
10:31 tadzik aye
10:32 tadzik proto tokens get to have possibly different gramar definitions, but the same action method, right?
10:33 jnthn tadzik: Ech variant gets its own action meth
10:33 jnthn *Each
10:33 tadzik ok, thanks
10:34 jnthn typically the variants need different things
10:34 jnthn or that's been my experience thus far, anyways
10:35 tadzik I'm looking for something for my Blocks. Every kind of block will end up being produced exactly the same way, but they'll have different parsing rules
10:38 moritz tadzik: if you have an example of how two blocks are parsed and what they should produce, maybe we can come up with something clevery-ish
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10:40 tadzik moritz: I'm now working on the grammar rules. Basically, the point is that '=begin foo\nbla bla\n=end foo' and '=for foo\nblabla\n\n
10:40 tadzik ' end up being the same
10:41 moritz tadzik: if you use the same captures in each rule, it shouldn't be hard to write a routine that takes a Match and returns a Pod::Block
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10:43 tadzik yeah, I suppose so
10:47 masak joined #perl6
10:48 masak hi #perl6.
10:48 * masak just finished writing his presentation
10:48 jnthn Finished with over an hour to spare!!
10:48 masak 168 slides \o/
10:49 jnthn O_O
10:49 masak I have no idea how long it's going to take to deliver... :)
10:49 masak maybe we'll be here all night.
10:50 masak mberends: wish you were here :/
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11:00 moritz pink floyd?
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11:26 masak moritz: sorry. just another brick in the Wall. :)
11:27 * masak don't need no Eddy Kayshun
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11:34 * masak just made a DSL for the Moscow metro
11:36 AlexKotov DSL = Domain Specific Language ?
11:37 tadzik Digital Subscriber Line?
11:38 masak moritz: there's a talk about exceptions going on here right now. http://event.perlrussia.org/mayperl4/talk/131
11:38 masak AlexKotov: yes. stay tuned for my talk this afternoon :)
11:38 masak (it's in the talk)
11:38 tadzik hrm
11:39 AlexKotov ye, looking forward for your talk today))
11:40 masak \o/
11:40 tadzik http://nopaste.snit.ch/45315 -- line * - 3, could anyone take a look?
11:40 masak AlexKotov: I'm looking forward to it as well, now that I've finished writing it! :P
11:40 tadzik masak: will there be any live streaming?
11:40 masak I doubt that.
11:42 arnsholt masak: OOC, how long is your talk with 168 slides? =)
11:42 masak tadzik: whoa. I'd like to help -- it looks interesting -- but it's doubtful this environment will provide the right kind of peace of mind for debugging grammars.
11:42 masak arnsholt: I don't know, I've never given it :)
11:42 masak arnsholt: I hope it's about 40 minutes :P
11:43 masak tadzik: hopefully moritz or someone else can help...
11:43 arnsholt Oh, right. How much time have the organisers allocated to you, then? =)
11:43 masak 40 minutes.
11:43 arnsholt Right. That's a lot of slides/minute ^_^
11:44 tadzik masak: I hope so. I'm investigating in other axis, but I'm afraid there's something about protos I don't quite understand
11:44 masak rakudo: say 40 / 169
11:44 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«0.236686390532544␤»
11:44 masak rakudo: say 40 / 169 * 60
11:44 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«14.2011834319527␤»
11:44 tadzik :O
11:44 tadzik blasphemy
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11:46 jnthn 14 seconds a slide! :)
11:46 masak on average :)
11:46 * jnthn is looking forward to this :)
11:47 arnsholt tadzik: I think the reason the rule PASSes is the *
11:47 arnsholt It matches 0 <pod_block>, which is a success
11:48 tadzik oh
11:48 tadzik Right, S05 mentions Longest Token Matching for protoregexes, but we don't have that
11:48 masak corrct.
11:49 masak there's some LTM somewhere, but not nearly all of it.
11:49 dalek nqp: b12c862 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
11:49 dalek nqp: Add a way to stub in a type without doing anything with it other than new_type and with an explicitly specified meta-object type.
11:49 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b12c86229c
11:49 dalek nqp: d0f50b8 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
11:49 dalek nqp: Ensure we build proper AST node in newly added action method.
11:49 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d0f50b85c1
11:49 dalek nqp: 3b5eec5 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/SymbolTable.pm:
11:49 dalek nqp: Rather than dying when trying to run code we didn't compile yet, instead try to compile it on-demand and run it. Missing various environmental bits just yet, but essentially works.
11:49 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3b5eec59ae
11:49 masak tadzik: on that note, I wouldn't use infix:<|> in rules if I were you. it's not very future-proof.
11:50 masak I'd use infix:<||> across the board.
11:50 tadzik thanks
11:52 Tene masak: what's your talk on?
11:53 * masak realizes that he will give a compiler talk right after jnthn gives... a compiler talk
11:53 jnthn :P
11:53 masak though it's not that bad. :) mine is less detailed and more philosophical.
11:53 masak Tene: http://event.perlrussia.org/mayperl4/talk/117
11:53 jnthn Mine has less pretty diagrams :P
11:54 Tene shame I'm missing out; that sounds like a lot of fun
11:54 masak I plan to post slides here as I give the presentation. if you just advance them each 14 seconds, you can pretend you're here... :)
11:55 masak s/each/every/
11:58 AlexKotov http://www.picamatic.com/view/7557015_P1050552_halfsized/
11:58 AlexKotov Pic from latest YAPC::Russia talk (about exceptions)
11:59 Tene I should find a conference to give a talk at; that would be a lot of fun.
11:59 masak Tene: YAPC::EU! :)
11:59 masak Tene: in beautiful Riga :)
11:59 Tene I don't think I have the money for that.
12:00 AlexKotov Tene: where are you now (geographically) ?
12:00 masak Tene: I'm speaking purely out of self-interest -- it's be nice to meet.
12:00 masak but I suspect I'll end up at a YAPC::NA sooner or later.
12:00 Tene AlexKotov: California, US
12:00 Tene masak: agreed
12:01 AlexKotov Tene: yes, far way to any of Europe....
12:01 Tene I haven't attended a YAPC::NA yet either.
12:01 wamba left #perl6
12:02 Tene I really should, one of these days
12:06 bacek ~~
12:06 bacek jnthn, ping
12:07 AlexKotov jnthn just started his Perl6 talk right now
12:07 masak oh. it would seem my talk just got moved to first thing tomorrow. :)
12:08 masak oh great, several bonus hours of procrastination :P
12:09 AlexKotov http://www.picamatic.com/view/7557065_P1050553_halfsized/
12:09 AlexKotov Pic of jnthn at the stage
12:09 masak AlexKotov++ jnthn++
12:10 masak note the camera pointing at the laptop :P
12:10 yegor joined #perl6
12:12 masak yegor: hi.
12:14 Tene I remember meeting jnthn at the parrot summit once
12:14 Tene the hotetl we stayed in happens to be right next to where I live, when I moved to CA
12:14 satyavvd joined #perl6
12:15 uKibab http://dl.kibab.com/jonathan0.jpg
12:15 Tene like, two blocks from my first apartment here.
12:15 uKibab :-)
12:15 masak uKibab: nice one!
12:18 bacek AlexKotov, передавай ему привет после презентации :)
12:18 bacek (Sorry for Russian guys :)
12:18 dalek nqp: a555ce0 | bacek++ | src/6model/reprs/P6opaque.c:
12:18 dalek nqp: Add awful, terrible block of GC
12:18 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a555ce0b4a
12:18 masak phenny: "передавай ему привет после презентации"?
12:19 phenny masak: "peredavay emu hello then presentations" (bg to en, translate.google.com)
12:19 masak phenny: ru "передавай ему привет после презентации"?
12:19 phenny masak: "Give my regards to him after the presentation" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
12:19 bacek AlexKotov, and tell him to review my last commit to nqp :)
12:19 bacek wow! phenny++
12:19 bacek actually google.translate++ :)
12:20 masak phenny: tell jnthn <bacek> AlexKotov, передавай ему привет после презентации :) <bacek> AlexKotov, and tell him to review my last commit to nqp :) [re commit a555ce0]
12:20 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
12:20 bacek masak, meh!
12:20 masak :)
12:20 bacek aloha, msg jnthn please review my last commit to nqp
12:21 bacek oh. This incarnation of aloha doesn't have "msg". Which is probably good anyway :)
12:21 masak aye.
12:22 bacek otoh.
12:22 bacek aloha, seen tadzik
12:22 aloha bacek: tadzik was last seen in #perl6 31 mins 37 seconds ago saying "thanks".
12:22 tadzik bacek: I'm hier
12:22 tadzik heh, I'll upload my NLPW pics too, for the fun
12:22 bacek tadzik, I know. I'm just checking cross-channel "seen"
12:22 bacek :)
12:22 tadzik :)
12:23 AlexKotov seen tadzik
12:23 aloha tadzik was last seen in #parrot 9 seconds ago saying "(:".
12:23 AlexKotov works!
12:23 uKibab great :-)
12:23 bacek Indeed :)
12:24 Moukeddar joined #perl6
12:24 masak Moukeddar: hi!
12:24 tadzik oh, that's a hackathoney thing?
12:24 Moukeddar hello Sir
12:24 bacek So, cross-channel msg via aloha will work too. You just have to use #parrot to send message
12:24 Moukeddar how are you doing?
12:24 masak tadzik: what is?
12:24 tadzik masak: the cross-channel-seen
12:24 masak Moukeddar: I'm at YAPC::Russia :)
12:24 cognominal left #perl6
12:25 masak tadzik: I don't think so...
12:25 Moukeddar you made it
12:25 Moukeddar congrats
12:25 masak Moukeddar: yeah! thank.
12:25 masak s*
12:25 masak Moukeddar: how're you?
12:26 Moukeddar good but a bit Tired :)
12:26 * bacek thinking about visiting YAPC::Russia some day
12:27 AlexKotov bacek: where are you now? (geographically)
12:28 bacek AlexKotov, Sydney
12:28 AlexKotov Yeah.... really far way to go to Moscow )
12:29 bacek Yeah :)
12:29 risou_awy is now known as risou
12:32 tadzik http://imgur.com/SSb6L&amp;KR52j&amp;w3vYW -- 3 NLPW pictures
12:32 Moukeddar nice
12:32 Moukeddar many heads
12:33 tadzik I think masak is on all three :)
12:33 masak huh. how'd that happen? :)
12:33 tadzik easily, my dear Watson. Your head is between the other heads
12:34 Moukeddar found him :)
12:34 Moukeddar he's in the last line of heads
12:34 Moukeddar bottom-right
12:35 tadzik depends on a picture :)
12:35 masak right. I've moved to a completely different place in the third picture :)
12:36 masak er. my head has, I mean.
12:36 Moukeddar i'm talking about the first one
12:36 Moukeddar right?
12:36 masak right.
12:36 Moukeddar that's jnthn in the second piC right?
12:36 masak aye.
12:37 Moukeddar why do you have to use a dish as a background image ?
12:37 Moukeddar pavlov Experiment?
12:38 masak Moukeddar: because the talk was called "Perl 6 Appetizers" :)
12:38 Moukeddar lol, and that's an appetizer?
12:38 masak right.
12:38 Moukeddar more like an insect fight club
12:39 masak I assure you it looks very tasty in the actual PDF.
12:40 Moukeddar must be the projection
12:40 masak I regret to say that I never managed to compress this particular PDF enough to be able to upload it.
12:41 Moukeddar too many pics?
12:41 masak it became huge because the same title imeages were repeated on all the subsequent slides.
12:41 masak very pretty, but too large. I haven't used that presentation system since.
12:41 Moukeddar oh, isn't there a way to make it as a template
12:42 Moukeddar so all the title images get linked to the first one
12:42 masak I didn't find one at the time.
12:42 masak I did look for one.
12:42 Moukeddar most of my PDFs are <15 page
12:42 masak the problem is the way I make PDFs per page, and then glue them together...
12:43 Moukeddar masak, try to make the whole document in Word 2010 for example
12:43 masak the presentation framework for Appetizers is online, though. it's written in Perl 6: https://github.com/masak/talks/blob/master/yapc-eu-2010-appetizers/make-presentation
12:43 Moukeddar then save as PDF
12:43 masak Moukeddar: not if I can avoid it :D
12:43 Moukeddar it's FAT ;)
12:44 masak FAT16 or FAT32?
12:44 moritz tadzik: have you solved the issue in http://nopaste.snit.ch/45315 ?
12:45 tadzik moritz: yeah, we got to that
12:45 Moukeddar just plain FAT :)
12:45 Moukeddar but it depends on the C chain :)
12:45 tadzik I also solved a few new things, will probably have something to show off in a near future
12:46 moritz great, just came back from purchasing a new bicycle
12:46 tadzik sounds good
12:46 moritz will get it on Tuesday :-9
12:46 tadzik I was looking at some bicecles yesterday, but ended up getting new shoes and new haircut :)
12:47 moritz I also got a new haircut yesterday... for free. $wife++ :-)
12:47 Moukeddar for free?
12:47 moritz yes
12:47 Moukeddar sweet
12:47 moritz ok, it cost me a kiss
12:47 Moukeddar it's getting Hot in here, i need a military hair cut
12:47 Moukeddar moritz, that's expensive
12:48 Moukeddar get a refund
12:48 tadzik a kiss is not a contract :>
12:48 Moukeddar oh it will become one
12:48 Moukeddar soon
12:49 * masak .oO( sub kiss { PRE { ... }; POST { ... } } )
12:49 tadzik there's a trap in my gsoc proposal. Rakudo can't really parse the delimited blocks, it can ignore them :)
12:50 masak tadzik: that's correct.
12:50 * uKibab unfortunately had to w  leave in the middle of John's talk
12:50 uKibab :(
12:51 Moukeddar must be the kebab
12:52 uKibab nope :-P
12:52 AlexKotov uKibab will be back tomorrow :)
12:52 uKibab tadzik, are you participating in gsoc this summer?
12:52 Moukeddar they had this google/Opensource talk here at my city
12:53 Moukeddar i couldn't make it
12:53 AlexKotov Changes in tomorrow's timetable for YAPC::Russia: 1.) mberends's talks removed :( 2.) masak's talk moved from today
12:54 tadzik uKibab: yes
12:54 AlexKotov http://event.perlrussia.org/mayperl4/schedule?day=2011-05-15
12:54 AlexKotov Moukeddar: where are you now (geographically)?
12:55 Moukeddar Morocco
12:55 AlexKotov Closer than Sydney or California, but still far enough...
12:56 Moukeddar yes pretty fat
12:56 Moukeddar far*
12:56 Moukeddar i think my uncle married a russian girl :)
12:57 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:57 masak pmichaud! \o/
12:57 masak pmichaud: jnthn is mid-talk: "Inside a Compiler".
12:58 * uKibab also participa
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12:59 tadzik good morning pmichaud
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13:02 pmichaud masak: I trust the talk is going exceedingly well, as all of jnthn++'s talks do?
13:03 masak yes, it's proceeding nicely.
13:03 AlexKotov Current slide is "Current focus" (NQP)
13:03 pmichaud Today at 2100UTC is the Parrot Developer Summit (on #parrotsketch) -- anyone have any items they wish me to share at the summit?
13:04 tadzik pmichaud: could you poke cotto about the Select PMC which was contributed, but not yet reviewed enought to be accepted?
13:05 pmichaud tadzik: will try to do that, yes.
13:05 pmichaud the summit often tends to focus on bigger picture items... but that probably qualifies
13:05 tadzik I see
13:06 tadzik well, that'll open us some way to async IO
13:06 pmichaud also, I know everyone is watching jnthn's talk, but I'm still wanting to hear opinions on http://gist.github.com/971944 (replacing Perl 6 Mu.item with a PIR one for 8% performance improvement)
13:06 pmichaud tadzik: where was Select PMC contributed?
13:06 pmichaud (ticket?  mailing list?)
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13:08 tadzik pmichaud: tewk/select branch or something
13:08 pmichaud tadzik: it might get more attention with a trac ticket for it
13:08 AlexKotov left #perl6
13:08 tadzik pmichaud: it has a trac ticket
13:08 tadzik let me find it
13:08 pmichaud if you could .... thanks
13:09 tadzik http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2034
13:09 pmichaud I can only be here for about an hour -- have a meeting irl here this morning
13:09 masak pizza! &
13:09 masak left #perl6
13:09 tadzik pmichaud: re Mu.item, I thought replacing Perl 6 with PIR was less than desired
13:10 uKibab pizza arrived?
13:10 pmichaud tadzik: I've always maintained that hotpath items (such as this) should not have to be written in P6
13:10 pmichaud besides, all I'm doing is replaying
13:10 pmichaud *replacing
13:10 pmichaud method item() { self }
13:10 pmichaud with a PIR method
13:10 pmichaud .sub 'item' :method; .return (self); .end
13:11 pmichaud seems minor enough for an 8% overall speed improvement
13:11 pmichaud we can leave the p6 version in the source, with a comment that it's actually in builtins/Mu.pir
13:11 pmichaud (p6 version commented out)
13:14 moritz +1
13:14 pmichaud someday our compiler will be smart enough that it can compile the p6 version to be on par with the PIR version.  Until then, I'd like to take the speed improvement.
13:17 flussence now I'm curious, what does the P6 currently compile down to?
13:17 pmichaud well, since it's a perl 6 routine, it
13:17 pmichaud creates $_, $!, and $/
13:18 pmichaud (this involves creating at least 6 pmcs)
13:18 pmichaud creates a return exception handler
13:18 pmichaud (another pmc)
13:19 pmichaud (looking)
13:20 pmichaud creates a lexical 'self' PMC and binds the invocant to that
13:20 pmichaud so, that's another pmc
13:20 JimmyZ joined #perl6
13:20 flussence ouch, that's a lot of work for nothing :)
13:21 pmichaud it creates a Hash for %_
13:21 pmichaud (another PMC)
13:21 tadzik pmichaud: makes sense
13:21 pmichaud and in the case of sin.t, this sequence was called 45K times
13:22 pmichaud meaning we created ~450K PMCs that we just threw away
13:22 flussence yow!
13:22 pmichaud (that's what is meant by "hotpath" :)
13:22 tadzik (I meant the replacing)
13:22 pmichaud (tadzik: got it :)
13:23 flussence I think I've seen a few other bits of core that are just "{ self; }", would it make sense to do the same to those?
13:24 flussence oh, they're just $var.{$var.WHAT}
13:25 moritz flussence: only if they are called that often (I doubt it)
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13:26 flussence oh well, it's only a temporary fix anyway
13:27 pmichaud https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/master/results/kiwi-x86_64-201105140653.txt # latest rakbench results
13:28 pmichaud https://github.com/pmichaud/rakbench/blob/master/results/plum-x86_64-201105140651.txt # latest rakbench results, #2
13:28 JimmyZ left #perl6
13:28 pmichaud the above do not include the Mu.item hotpath patch
13:28 pmichaud gtg -- bbl
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13:31 tadzik pod6 showoff: http://nopaste.snit.ch/45436
13:44 arnsholt Cool!
13:44 arnsholt Also, for all your placeholder text needs, I recommend http://lipsum.lipsum.com/
13:44 arnsholt =)
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13:48 tadzik naah ;)
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13:57 masak mmm, pizza. :)
13:57 AlexKotov Yeah, pizza was tasty!
13:59 moritz tadzik++ # POD parsing
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14:01 masak pmichaud++ # http://groups.google.com/group/parrot-dev/msg/ec6c3b62b7fc93f6
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14:09 tadzik debugging grammars is a huge pain
14:10 risou is now known as risou_awy
14:11 moritz tadzik: it is, but you'll gather experience, and will need less debugging soon
14:11 tadzik probably, yes
14:11 tadzik For now I'm stuck on paragraph blocks
14:12 jnthn pmichaud: I know PIR methods are faster. They also lack signatures, and won't play well with the metamodel stuff at all, let alone v-table indexing and stuff.
14:12 phenny jnthn: 12:20Z <masak> tell jnthn <bacek> AlexKotov, передавай ему привет после презентации :) <bacek> AlexKotov, and tell him to review my last commit to nqp :) [re commit a555ce0]
14:12 masak I can't claim that it has gotten easier over time to write large grammars. I've become more careful over time though, and prefer to depend on tests for making sure I don't regress.
14:12 tadzik but maybe I'll try to (1) write a hell of tests for the delimited blocks and (2) stick it inside Rakudo and see if that works
14:12 jnthn pmichaud: It's fine for a workaround for now but it'll only cause pain. I've wasted quite enough time on the bits of NQP still written in PIR.
14:13 jnthn pmichaud: PIR inside the method is OK-er.
14:13 masak tadzik: you might want to consider evolving grammar+tests in one isolated file, and then injecting it into Rakudo when it's ready enough.
14:13 masak tadzik: quicker development cycle.
14:13 tadzik masak: that's what I started doing, yes
14:13 jnthn pmichaud: An optimizer is kinda high on my list post-nom.
14:14 masak tadzik++
14:14 tadzik Rakudo's grammar will need a bit of refactoring too, it seems
14:15 tadzik alright, tests first, parablocks later
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14:16 tadzik that's an entire week 2
14:17 masak ...is this week 2?
14:18 tadzik nope, it's about -2
14:18 masak \o/
14:18 tadzik I mean I wanted to do an entire week 2 before week 1, or something like this :)
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14:25 masak ok, conf over for the day :)
14:25 jnthn ПИВОООООО! \o/
14:25 masak :P
14:25 tadzik phenny: "ПИВОООООО!"?
14:25 phenny tadzik: "PIVOOOOOO!" (ru to en, translate.google.com)
14:25 masak or should I say :П
14:25 tadzik :D
14:26 * masak would have been really impressed if phenny'd said "BEEEEEEER!"
14:26 tadzik oh, I forgot about the missing ingredient for debugging grammars!
14:26 jnthn
14:26 masak tadzik: love? :)
14:26 jnthn tadzik: sacrifies?
14:27 masak tadzik: jelly beans?
14:27 tadzik no! ПИВОООООО!
14:27 jnthn OOOO!
14:27 tadzik that's what helped last time with Config::INI
14:27 tadzik twice
14:27 masak (Ballmer peak)++
14:27 jnthn Always practice BDD.
14:27 masak Ballmer-Driven Development?
14:27 jnthn Beer Driven Development \o/
14:27 masak oh :)
14:28 tadzik combined with Test Driven Development that gives us Best Driven Development!
14:28 masak could also have been Водка Driven Development :P
14:28 jnthn :D
14:28 dur-randir left #perl6
14:28 tadzik I prefer Bier :)
14:28 masak I'm so glad you didn't say "Biber".
14:29 masak er, Bieber*
14:29 jnthn ewww!
14:29 jnthn Why'd you have to mention...
14:29 jnthn :P
14:29 * masak .oO( do not imbiebe... )
14:29 jnthn :P
14:29 jnthn let's go!
14:29 masak &
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14:45 tadzik heh, who was looking for the shortest code to generate a Null PMC Access? :)
14:45 tadzik rakudo: @.a
14:45 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('a')␤  in main program body at line 2:/tmp/g2_bhzNFCM␤»
14:48 woosley left #perl6
14:48 tadzik how do I create an Foo::Bar::$Baz instance in runtime?
14:48 woosley joined #perl6
14:48 tadzik w/o eval of course
14:49 * PerlJam wonders why tadzik says "of course"  :)
14:50 tadzik I'm trying to cut myself off the thought that there isn't any better way:)
14:54 dalek mu: 223892f | jimmy++ | docs/zh-cn/syn/S02-bits.pod:
14:54 dalek mu: use more descriptive words
14:54 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/223892f4a9
14:57 tadzik more descriptive words? These are all squares! :P
14:58 JimmyZ :)
14:59 JimmyZ you may want to learn chinese?
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15:03 tadzik maybe one day
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15:04 tadzik how do I deal with "Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'Pod6::Block'" again?
15:07 dalek mu: 38aa395 | jimmy++ | docs/zh-cn/syn/S02-bits.pod:
15:07 dalek mu: use more descriptive words again, this makes words more smooth
15:07 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/38aa39556e
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15:42 tadzik rakudo: my $a = Nil; say $a.perl # expected?
15:42 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«Any␤»
15:43 risou_awy is now known as risou
15:43 tadzik rakudo: my @a = Nil; say @a.perl # expected?
15:43 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«[]␤»
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15:43 tadzik s:2nd/expected\?//
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15:45 TimToady yes, see S02:2240
15:46 tadzik right. Thank you
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17:38 dalek book/first-example-more-robust: e9930d3 | moritz++ | src/basics.pod:
17:38 dalek book/first-example-more-robust: [basics] fix duplicate invocant explanation found by PerlJam++
17:38 dalek book/first-example-more-robust: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/e9930d3a89
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17:38 dalek book: 0281365 | moritz++ | src/basics.pod:
17:38 dalek book: [basics] made first example more robust wrt whitespace. Text still needs updating
17:38 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/0281365b94
17:38 dalek book: 346ed6a | moritz++ | src/basics.pod:
17:38 dalek book: [basics] start to updated description of the new first example
17:38 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/346ed6a170
17:38 dalek book: e83af18 | moritz++ | src/basics.pod:
17:38 dalek book: [basics] further wording changes after the s/split/words/ refactor
17:38 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/e83af18ca2
17:38 dalek book: e9930d3 | moritz++ | src/basics.pod:
17:38 dalek book: [basics] fix duplicate invocant explanation found by PerlJam++
17:38 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/e9930d3a89
17:39 dalek book: 3d702f6 | moritz++ | src/basics.pod:
17:39 dalek book: Merge branch 'first-example-more-robust'
17:39 dalek book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/3d702f6bf9
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17:50 masak lol hi!
17:51 tadzik lol hi masak!
17:52 masak lol
17:52 tadzik if you're adventure-hungry, gsocmess got some funny updates recently
17:52 masak thanks; now is a good time for me to have a peek.
17:52 tadzik cool
17:52 jnthn evenin'
17:53 sorear hi masak!
17:53 masak ooh -- "Add some meat." -- Pod with meat on it :)
17:53 tadzik evenin' jnthn'
17:53 masak evening' sorear'
17:56 jnthn masak: I think you took the hungry bit too literally :P
17:59 masak jnthn: hunger is not to be trifled with!
17:59 * masak makes Pac Man motions
17:59 * jnthn smiles cherrily
18:01 * tadzik writes FotC inspired tests
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18:08 cognominal jnthn, masak, mberends : osdc.fr is tentatively scheduled in September 2011, Thursday 22 to Saturday 24.  It would be part of a larger event and hosted Avenue Georges V (difficullt to find a more classy place in Paris which will change from the seedy area around Cité des Sciences). Still free and open.
18:09 mberends \o/
18:09 cognominal beers will be probably way more expensive in the area too :(
18:10 jnthn cognominal: OK. I'm still looking at FPW too
18:10 cognominal nice
18:10 jnthn cognominal: They'll probably still be cheaper than in Swedne :P
18:10 mberends jnthn: travel via .nl if you like :)
18:11 jnthn mberends: Canny do that on the way there - I'll be coming straight from teaching.
18:11 cognominal I remember English guys  complaning about the price of beers in Paris, in yapc 2003.
18:11 jnthn But on the way back maybe ;)
18:11 mberends :)
18:12 cognominal That would help organizers if you submit your talks at http://journeesperl.fr/fpw2011/
18:13 cognominal sure enough, anyone on this channel is invited to come and talk in our conferences…
18:15 * mberends is preparing a submission
18:16 cognominal beer is expensive but Chartreuse is free as usual :)
18:17 moritz tadzik: I get a parse error in podclasses.pl line 14
18:17 cognominal "for the happy few" would say Stendhal en Français dans le texte.
18:17 moritz tadzik: Whitespace character is not allowed as a delimiter at line 14, near " nothing s
18:17 moritz #= nothing special. BOARing!
18:17 tadzik moritz: yeah, apparently Rakudo does not like #= anymore
18:17 tadzik moritz: I got rid of that in the Real Code
18:19 moritz tadzik: so I should be running the t/ files instead?
18:19 tadzik moritz: ufo && make test should do
18:21 moritz tadzik++ # passing tests
18:21 Tene cognominal: any chance fpw would fund my travel to give a presentation there?
18:21 tadzik moritz: I have some local ones that don't :)
18:22 moritz failing tests are great too :-)
18:22 tadzik they're even better :)
18:23 moritz but having *some* tests pass is way better than only failing tests
18:24 tadzik yes
18:25 tadzik I just added some new, both passing and failing.
18:30 tadzik moritz: could you give me a hand with prototokens?
18:32 cognominal Tene, I am writing a mail to the fpw oganizers but it would be good that you submit your potential talks with the mention you need funding.
18:34 tadzik moritz: nvm
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: 79d1ccc | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: Update bootstrap to use stub syntax so that symbols end up installed in the serialization context properly.
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/79d1ccc367
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: f0d615d | jnthn++ | src/CORE.setting/stubs.pm:
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: Stuff in the setting should be my-scoped.
18:47 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f0d615d13a
18:47 * masak sleeps &
18:47 masak left #perl6
18:48 tadzik what time is it in Russia?
18:49 jnthn tadzik: Getting towards 11pm
18:49 jnthn tadzik: And masak stayed up slide hacking last night ;)
18:50 * colomon reminds himself to get his presentation for YAPC::NA done *before* leaving for the conference.
18:50 tadzik (:
18:50 colomon That way I can stay up drinking instead.  ;)
18:51 Mowah left #perl6
18:52 * colomon is also hoping there might be a chance for tunes... there's at least one world-class Irish guitarist living in Asheville.
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19:07 jnthn sleep &
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19:20 tadzik rakudo: say Seq.new(1, 2, 3).perl.eval.WHAT
19:20 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
19:20 tadzik intentional?
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19:23 moritz probably not really
19:23 pmichaud rakudo:  say Seq.new(1,2,3)
19:23 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«123␤»
19:23 pmichaud rakudo:  say Seq.new(1,2,3).perl
19:23 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3)␤»
19:23 pmichaud that's likely why.
19:23 pmichaud rakudo:  say Seq.new(1,2,3).perl.eval.item.WHAT
19:23 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«Seq()␤»
19:23 pmichaud that works, though :-)
19:24 dionys left #perl6
19:25 tadzik I'm debugging this for like half an hour now. In .perl it looks like a Parcel, and I'm wondering why doesn't it flatten
19:25 sorear .perl is broken by design for Seq/Parcel/List/Array
19:26 sorear one of the reasons why I'd like to get away from the notion of perl/eval dualism
19:26 sorear who invented .perl, and were they asleep in ~1997 when the Haskell community made the same mistake?
19:26 tadzik I don't really like the dozen types of lists
19:27 colomon or we need something else which is a dual with eval?  ie a pretty-printer and a serializer, and never the twain shall meet?
19:28 sorear colomon: using eval() as a deserializer is fundamentally stupid
19:28 colomon yeah, I thought that as soon as I typed it.  :)
19:29 colomon (well, as soon as I hit enter, anyway.)
19:30 moritz btw perl 5.14 release is very soon
19:31 tadzik 72 min ago    Jesse Vincent    Remove RC3 marker
19:31 tadzik it's now /o\
19:31 colomon sorear: so we have, what, three distinctly different concepts all trying to squeeze into the .perl / .eval box?
19:32 tadzik and we won't be using package Foo {} syntax anyway, because everyone will be obliged to keep 5.8 compatibility
19:32 sorear colomon: I'd say.
19:36 tadzik All tests successful.
19:36 tadzik I almost stopped believing this is possible :)
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19:45 pmichaud I've remarked numerous times that I disagree with .perl's current definition, with little effect.
19:45 pmichaud (definition as given by spec as well as implementation)
19:45 pmichaud .perl lacks item/list awareness
19:50 SHODAN left #perl6
19:55 colomon http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/05/13/theory-and-practice/
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20:00 moritz .perl is specced to imply .item context
20:00 pmichaud sure, but the thing it outputs might not be .item
20:01 moritz that's an implementation bug
20:01 pmichaud or, put another way, I believe the spec says that if you evaluate the result of .perl in item context, you get the same result as what you put in
20:01 pmichaud that's certainly what happens in the case of .Seq
20:01 pmichaud rakudo:  say Seq.new(1,2,3).perl.eval.item.WHAT
20:01 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«Seq()␤»
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20:12 plobsing_ phenny: tell jnthn I have updated the zavolaj patch: http://nopaste.snit.ch/45500. it still doesn't like something about the references.
20:12 phenny plobsing_: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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20:40 pmichaud if anyone has time to quickly review my pds message for suggestions:   https://gist.github.com/972609
20:40 pmichaud I'll post it in about 5 mins
20:40 pmichaud (it's a draft now)
20:40 tadzik pmichaud: garbage collection => better/faster garbage collection?
20:41 tadzik Parrot did have GC back then )
20:41 pmichaud "improved"
20:42 pmichaud well, Parrot has all of those, really, except the last
20:42 pmichaud we just needed more still :)
20:42 tadzik (:
20:42 tadzik pmichaud: are you about to push your Mu.item change?
20:43 pmichaud tadzik: probably after PDS
20:43 pmichaud right now my focus is there
20:44 Tene pmichaud: the phrasing about "we don't mind breakage ... to get them fixed or avoided" seems a bit off, in that if you're trying to avoid or fix breakage, then you do mind breakage?
20:45 pmichaud the fact that breakages occur is expected
20:46 pmichaud that doesn't frustrate us (much)
20:46 Tene I don't have any recommendations; it just took me a few readings to understand what I think you meant there.
20:46 pmichaud if we could say "oh, this broke" and have a parrot person simply say "oops, we'll revert or otherwise help you out", that'd be great.
20:47 pmichaud instead, we end up arguing for hours about why the breakage is absolutely necessary or that rakudo shouldn't be doing what it does or that rakudo shouldn't be targeting Parrot HEAD in the first place
20:48 pmichaud the initial arguments rarely seem to listen to what we're saying, but instead are knee-jerk "you're wrong" sorts of responses.
20:48 pmichaud I don't know how to improve that sentence to make that clearer, either.
20:49 Tene Perhaps "herculean effort to get necessary support from parrot"?
20:49 pmichaud too vague
20:49 pmichaud and also not what I'm saying
20:49 * Tene nods.
20:49 pmichaud it's not so much that it takes so long to get support, it's that we have to wade through a ton of anti-support first
20:49 Tene 'k, probably good enough.
20:49 pmichaud i.e., things that actively work against us
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20:51 pmichaud "We don't mind the existence of breakages, we mind the
20:51 pmichaud absolutely herculean efforts we have to go through with various
20:51 pmichaud Parrot developers to get them to stop denying there's an issue
20:51 pmichaud (or that they've already addressed it) so that a solution can be found. "
20:51 pmichaud better ?
20:52 pmichaud I'm going with that.
20:53 moritz http://news.perlfoundation.org/2011/05/perl-514.html
20:53 tadzik Quick, reddit it first! :P
20:54 flussence 5.14! :D
20:54 * tadzik reddited it first
20:56 tadzik http://www.perl.org/get.html still lists 5.12.3 as the latest stable though
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23:27 sorear good * #perl6
23:27 sorear pmichaud: I would like to talk to you about .perl
23:28 pmichaud sorear: I'm hoping to take a break soon (been in PDS channel for 2.5 hrs) but I'll gladly take questions now :)
23:28 pmichaud (or comments)
23:28 molaf left #perl6
23:28 pmichaud I'd only start by saying that .perl in rakudo is its best approximation of what I think to be a spec that needs some rethink/updating
23:29 pmichaud i.e., by no means will I be defining what rakudo currently does with respect to what it *ought* to do :)
23:30 pmichaud s/defining/defending/  # gah, can't type!
23:31 sorear pmichaud: I don't like the spec at all; I want to know what you'd like to see
23:31 pmichaud I think it needs to be more dwimmy
23:31 pmichaud in other words, when someone uses .perl, they expect to see Perl code that would reproduce the thing they're .perling
23:32 pmichaud I think we should stay true to that, even down to the notion of "this is an item" versus "this is a non-item"
23:33 sorear Do you think that @array.perl should be different from $(@array).perl?
23:33 sorear my @foo = 1,2,3; @foo.perl;  # @([1, 2, 3]) ?
23:38 jferrero joined #perl6
23:43 pmichaud I think that  @foo.perl probably should be  either  (1,2,3) or @([1,2,3])
23:43 mberends did we not come up with some cases a few months ago that even raised doubts about whether a .perl could ever be universal? Private object members, for example { has $!x; }
23:43 pmichaud depends on the level of fidelity we need
23:43 pmichaud mberends: I'm willing to forego universal.  I'd like "unsurprising" though.
23:43 pmichaud right now lots of people get surprised by .perl
23:44 pmichaud sorear: I can argue it either way, yes.  I don't like that Array always becomes [1,2,3] though
23:45 sorear pmichaud: ignore the spec- I want to know how you think to do this right
23:45 donri left #perl6
23:45 pmichaud the more interesting case is something like:    my @a = 1,2,3;  (5, @a, 6).perl
23:45 sorear (5, @([1,2,3]), 6)
23:45 pmichaud right
23:45 pmichaud that would be fine with me
23:45 pmichaud it preserves the knowledge of the array, but also flattens
23:46 pmichaud whereas:
23:46 pmichaud (5, @a.item, 6).perl   #   (5, [1,2,3], 6)
23:46 pmichaud or
23:47 pmichaud my $a = [1,2,3];   (5, $a, 6).perl   # (5, [1,2,3], 6)
23:48 pmichaud I think that making .perl item-aware would remove a good majority of the "Huh?" moments we currently get (more)
23:49 sorear sounds easy enough to do
23:49 sorear I'll do that
23:49 pmichaud also, I think it would help people understand the difference between item and list context
23:49 pmichaud if you can *see* the difference in .perl, it makes it easier to understand what's going on
23:49 sorear +1
23:49 pmichaud (there might be cases that are more confusion as a result of the change, I admit.)
23:49 sorear @([]) is a bit ugly, is all I'll say
23:49 pmichaud it could be .list
23:49 sorear rakudo: say @([1])
23:49 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«1␤»
23:49 pmichaud [1,2,3].list
23:50 pmichaud or even list([1,2,3])
23:50 sorear rakudo does @() now?
23:50 pmichaud I don't think it does... but it might
23:50 pmichaud rakudo:  say @([1,2,3]).elems
23:50 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«3␤»
23:50 pmichaud hmmmm
23:50 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a = (1, @([2,3,4]), 5);  say @a.elems
23:51 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«5␤»
23:51 pmichaud looks like "yes"
23:51 pmichaud oh, I think rakudo doesn't handle   @$a yet
23:51 pmichaud it knows the paren form, but not the non-paren prefix form
23:51 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a = [1,2,3];  say (1, @$a, 3).elems
23:51 p6eval rakudo be887a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 22, near "@$a, 3).el"␤»
23:51 pmichaud right, that's the one it doesn't know yet.
23:52 pmichaud anyway, I think you and I are in agreement on how .perl should start to change.  I'll be happy to help you make it happen :)
23:53 pmichaud "Perl 6 implementors!  Rise up and throw off the chains of your tormentor!"
23:53 sorear ...help?
23:53 pmichaud or something like that
23:53 sorear tehehe.
23:53 pmichaud anyway, I need a break from irc -- bbl
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