Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-05-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:07 sorear good * #perl6
02:07 phenny sorear: 17 May 07:32Z <moritz> tell sorear that t/spec/S05-grammar/action-stubs.t passes 13 tests and fails a few, might be worth looking at
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02:38 sorear hello lateau
02:39 lateau goodmorning
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02:51 sorear poll for native Japanese users: What do you feel the value of "ぎょ".chars should be?  +[ "ア" .. "ン" ]  ?
02:54 lestrrat I don't really get what str.chars is supposed to do :/
02:54 lestrrat length of the string?
02:54 PerlJam depends on context as always :)
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02:55 PerlJam but, in item context it should be the number of chars in the string
02:55 lestrrat "ぎょ".chars == 2 ?
02:56 PerlJam rakudo: "ぎょ".chars == 2
02:56 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6:  ( no output )
02:56 PerlJam oops
02:56 PerlJam rakudo: say "ぎょ".chars == 2
02:56 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
02:56 lestrrat seems right.
02:56 takesako i agree
02:57 lestrrat so now I have to wonder what sorear's reference to '+[ "ア" .. "ン" ]' is supposed to mean
03:00 takesako rakudo: say "き゚ょ".chars
03:00 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«3␤»
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03:01 tokuhirom rakudo: say "よ。".chars
03:01 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«2␤»
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03:02 sorear lestrrat: .chars is supposed to do the most useful thing in terms of the selected language
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03:02 Yappoko__ rakudo: say "み。".chars
03:02 sorear lestrrat: .graphs has a very specific technical definition (it counts Unicode code points, except for zero-width combining characters)
03:02 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«2␤»
03:03 sorear every kana or kanji counts for exactly 1 in .graphs
03:03 sorear so far, every language I've checked out has had .chars matching up with .graphs
03:04 takesako Unicode BOM must be 0 ?
03:05 lestrrat rakudo: say "ぎょ".graphs
03:05 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/AaZuOpXKss␤»
03:05 lestrrat grr
03:05 sorear I think BOM shouldn't even show up in Unicode strings
03:05 sorear but if it does, it should be 0
03:07 takesako oh, now i see what you mean
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03:08 sorear How often do you look at "ぎょ" and see a single, indivisible thing?
03:09 lestrrat without knowing the details of unicode and such, my initial reaction is that it should always be 2.
03:09 sorear rakudo: say "ア" .. "ン" # lestrrat: should this be changed to return 46 results?
03:09 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6:
03:09 p6eval ..OUTPUT«(timeout)アアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアアア�
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03:10 sorear lestrrat: the point of .chars et al is that we want users, especially non-English users, to not have to think about Unicode at all
03:10 sorear rakudo: say map *.chr, "ア".ord .. "ン".ord
03:10 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«アィイゥウェエォオカガキギクグケゲコゴサザシジスズセゼソゾタダチヂッツヅテデトドナニヌネノハバパヒビピフブプヘベペホボポマミムメモャヤュユョヨラリルレロヮワヰヱヲン␤»
03:11 takesako http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/3099/index.htm
03:11 tokuhirom where is "ァ"...
03:11 takesako Unicode Character 'COMBINING KATAKANA-HIRAGANA VOICED SOUND MARK' (U+3099)
03:11 sorear takesako: one before the beginning of that list
03:12 sorear the .. operator on strings is another place where Perl 6 is supposed to be sensitive to natural language
03:12 sorear it knows that some alphabets have a natural order
03:12 sorear rakudo: say [ 'a' .. 'z' ].elems
03:12 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«26␤»
03:13 sorear rakudo: say 'α'..'ω'
03:13 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρστυφχψω␤»
03:13 sorear rakudo: say map *.chr, 'α'.ord .. 'ω'.ord
03:13 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρςστυφχψω␤»
03:13 takesako oh
03:14 sorear note that the .. form is smart and skips over 'ς' (a special form of σ used at the end of words)
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03:18 takesako Windows .NET String.Length property returns the number of Char objects in this instance, not the number of Unicode characters.
03:19 sorear yes, it's horrible
03:19 sorear that should be .bytes('utf16') / 2
03:20 sorear .codes should count Unicode characters
03:20 sorear .graphs counts non-combining characters
03:21 sorear rakudo: say "とうきょう".comb.perl # Would anyone expect this to produce 4 elements?  2?
03:21 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«("と", "う", "き", "ょ", "う")␤»
03:23 takesako rakudo: say "㍑".graphs
03:23 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/mB21cexQkp␤»
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03:24 sorear that is an interesting character!
03:24 sorear but it will come up 1 eventually
03:24 sorear what Rakudo calls .chars today is what the spec calls .codes
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03:27 takesako http://www.drk7.jp/MT/drk/images/090615/img01.jpg
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03:28 lateau rakudo: say "㌶".ord
03:28 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«13110␤»
03:30 sorear takesako: what do you use that symbol for?
03:30 sorear is it some kind of purist replacement for 七L ?
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03:38 takesako http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/
03:47 TimToady sorear: .chars always means .graphs by default, and cannot have language-specific meanings in the absense of a specific declaration either setting the language or saying where the language is specified
03:48 TimToady 'course, in rakudo .chars always means .codes currently...
03:49 TimToady .graphs tries to be all things to all languages, to the extent that is possible, but it pays no attention to the current language
03:52 TimToady unicode seems to call ㌶ "square hectares", but that's a silly name for something that's already an area measurement
03:52 PerlJam maybe square hectares are really cubic? :)
03:53 TimToady maybe rectangular hectares are a different symbol :)
03:53 TimToady square hectares would have to be 4 dimensional, meseemeth
03:55 sorear what do square Roentgens measure?
03:56 takesako rakudo: say "㍉㌔㌢㍍㌘㌧㌃㌶㍑㍗㌍㌦㌣㌫㍊㌻㎜㎝㎞㎎㎏㏄㎡㍻№㏍℡㈱㈲㈹㍾㍽㍼".comb(/./)>>.ord.join(",")
03:56 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«13129,13076,13090,13133,13080,13095,13059,13110,13137,13143,13069,13094,13091,13099,13130,13115,13212,13213,13214,13198,13199,13252,13217,13179,8470,13261,8481,12849,12850,12857,13182,13181,13180␤»
03:58 * PerlJam wonders what a round hectare looks like
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04:07 TimToady I think the "square" part of it merely means it fits into a character cell...
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04:09 TimToady except my character cells never come out quite square, alas...
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04:30 perigrin TimToady: shody workmanship, find a better contractor and they'll make sure the cells come out square.
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04:48 * sorear just spent 15 minutes trying to find
04:49 sorear whether :x($y) allows passing by the name $y
04:53 dalek niecza: d2e6f22 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
04:53 dalek niecza: mergeback; allow passing positional parameters by name
04:53 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d2e6f22832
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05:20 cotto Who all in here wants Parrot's Select dynpmc to become a thing?  pmichaud mentioned that some Rakudo folks wanted to see it, but I haven't had a chance to ask him who.
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05:23 sorear cotto: a select op would also be an option
05:24 cotto sorear, it would.  We already have a dynpmc, but I'm not a fan of the interface.
05:24 sorear cotto: rakudo can't generally use dynpmcs as is (limitations in HLL mapping?); there will be a wrapper regardless of what you offer
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05:25 cotto sorear, sure.  I would like to know what would require the least wrapping.
05:25 cotto i.e. what'd be a nice natural interface
05:25 sorear do we want the OS dependancies to exist at the Parrot level or the Rakudo level?
05:26 sorear do we want bare bindings to select, poll, epoll, kqueue, etc, or a single unified AIO system?
05:26 cotto That sounds like a Rakudo decision.
05:26 cotto but it's also important to figure out what Parrot wants to provide.
05:27 sorear right; I'm sort of asking everyone
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05:28 sorear it might make sense to offer both low-level bindings and a MultiIO.nqp library
05:29 sorear that way HLLs that need to offer select can do so
05:29 sorear OTOH, I've been told that Parrot has no interest in providing direct POSIX bindings
05:30 cotto I don't remember such a discussion, but it sounds plausible.
05:30 cotto maybe I do.
05:32 cotto The nice thing about Select as a dynpmc is that we have code for it now.
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05:47 moritz good morning
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05:53 sorear hi moritz
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06:18 sorear cognominal: When the Perl 6 text operators are set to French mode, are there any groups of letters that substr() should treat as a unit and not split up?
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06:44 Su-Shee_ is now known as Su-Shee
06:45 Su-Shee .oO(I've just parsed "french maid mode".. need more coffee...)
06:45 Su-Shee good morning everyone.
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06:47 sorear hi Su-Shee.
06:48 sorear it seems TimToady was mostly thinking of German ss and Spanish ch/ll when he created chars-mode; I am increasingly wondering if there are *any* languages that are supported by Unicode, but have use for chars-mode
06:48 sorear do we have any expert users of Devanagari and its geographic kin here?
06:48 sorear how about Semitic scripts?
06:50 tadzik good morning Su-Shee
06:50 tadzik and everyone :)
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07:17 moritz sorear: maybe try p6l, it has a wider circle of readers than #perl6
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08:04 cognominal sorear, I am not sure I understand the question.  I don't know much about Unicode. I suppose that if somehow one can get e' for é as a normal form, this a atomic group of letter you are talking about.
08:05 cognominal But then, how to deal with the string 'e'   ?
08:05 cognominal does my answer make any sense to you?
08:06 cognominal may be if you point me to some documentation, I will be able t make my mind or do further research.
08:07 cognominal Su-Shee, you are reading to much the papers about DSK  :)
08:09 cognominal rakudo: say  "é".chars
08:09 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:10 cognominal rakudo : say "Dès Noël où un zéphyr haï me vêt de glaçons würmiens, je dîne d’exquis rôtis de bœuf au kir à l’aÿ d’âge mûr & cætera !".chars
08:11 cognominal rakudo: say "Dès Noël où un zéphyr haï me vêt de glaçons würmiens, je dîne d’exquis rôtis de bœuf au kir à l’aÿ d’âge mûr & cætera !".chars
08:11 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«119␤»
08:11 cognominal hum, 119 sounds too much.
08:12 moritz rakudo: say 'bœuf'.chars
08:12 p6eval rakudo 5f1bf6: OUTPUT«4␤»
08:13 cognominal The sentence is a pangram that contains all the accentuated chars known to french.
08:13 cognominal well, that the definition of a pangram.
08:15 cognominal To be true, the definition of pangram is silent about the presence of ligatures and accentuated chars.
08:16 cognominal Also there are ligatures that are optional like for word with ff
08:17 moritz cognominal: I understand sorear's question differently: are there any ligatures which are written as two characters, but treated as one in French?
08:28 cognominal Many people write boeuf or caetera because they don't know to do a ligature with a keyboard. But if I see these ligatures in the keyboard visualizer when holding the ⌥ key on my mac. Anyway they are so rare that mot people ignore them.
08:29 moritz but there are also cases where 'eu' doesn't stand for the ligature, right?
08:32 cognominal indeed. Like in "il a eu peur"
08:33 moritz phenny: fr "eu"?
08:33 phenny moritz: "had" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
08:33 * moritz had his last french lessons a decade ago
08:34 moritz considering that I had basically no practise, it's amazing how much written French text I can still read
08:34 cognominal But the ligature in bœuf is in oe.
08:34 moritz oh
08:34 moritz (listening to French is no good, those people just always talk way too fast)
08:35 cognominal I will check antidote, may be the ligature is facultative now.
08:37 cognominal I feel  antidote is the best  french dictionary, done in Québec, available on mac, pc and iDevices
08:37 moritz 'oe' as non-ligature also exists
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08:37 moritz coexister
08:40 cognominal yes, and antidote says indeed "when the sequence o e represents more than one sound, there is no ligature"
08:41 cognominal for the ligature æ, antidote says it is up to the user to do it or not.
08:43 cognominal personally, I have never seen before the form "curiculum vitæ" mentionned by antidote.
08:43 moritz "curiculum vitæ" looks like somebody being overly smug :-)
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08:44 cognominal indeed. That's from latin and I don't think there ligature in latin.
08:44 cognominal *there ere ligatures
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08:50 cognominal I am not an expert in typography, bu roman letter were the equivalent of modern upper case, I think. Now, it is possible to do the two french ligatures in upper case but I think it is done more rarely.
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08:53 cognominal antidote is apparently silent on that subject even if it talks on a related one, accents for upper case letters
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11:17 arnsholt cognominal: IIRC monumental inscriptions in Latin will use the AE ligature (think I saw that in Rome)
11:17 cognominal arnsholt: interesting
11:18 arnsholt sorear: I can read and write Devanagari
11:18 arnsholt Know a bit about Arabic script, but not much more than you can learn from Wikipedia
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11:19 cognominal indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86 talks aboit the AE ligature in classical latin
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13:02 ggoebel http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/lucian1900/1
13:02 ggoebel python3on parrot...
13:02 ggoebel > use 6model. It's full of unknowns and I'm not convinced it can map to Python's object system cleanly and efficiently,
13:03 moritz ggoebel: you missed to quote the rest of the sentence
13:04 moritz "either use 6model, or..."
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13:04 moritz ggoebel: which I understand as "evaluate the two alternatives, and use whatever fits better"
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13:35 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
13:36 moritz o/
13:36 takadonet pmichaud: morning
13:37 moritz tadzik: FYI I'll be on a conference next week (Sunday - Thursday), and likely have poor connectivity. If you need help with gsoc-y decisions, please defer to masak
13:38 moritz tadzik: you can als /msg me, I'll read it when I get internet access
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13:50 * pmichaud decides to rename "rakbench" to "rpmark"
13:51 PerlJam rpm ark?  rp mark? r pm ark?   :)
13:51 pmichaud "Rakudo/Parrot benchmarks"
13:51 pmichaud and yes, there are other possibilities for it as well :)
13:51 moritz use rpbench instead
13:52 pmichaud yeah, I thought of that too.
13:52 moritz "bench" is easier to map to "benchmark" than "mark"
13:52 pmichaud well, "mark" is what we produce.  :-)
13:52 isBEKaml r pm ark, sounds a lot gruff. :-)
13:52 isBEKaml har har har
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13:53 pmichaud also, I want to preserve the possibility that it'll be used for more than just benchmarking Rakudo :)
13:53 pmichaud "rp" gives a few more options
13:53 ggoebel moritz: yes... quoted slightly out of context. I hope 6model fits best. Purpose of mentioning it was to try to connect jnth to lucian if that connection doesn't already exist
13:53 pmichaud I'll decide between rpmark and rpbench in a bit.  votes welcome :)
13:53 pmichaud bbiab
13:56 isBEKaml speaking about benchmarks, I vaguely remember util/colomon working on their own benchmarks. Is that still on?
13:56 isBEKaml colomon: ^^
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14:00 tadzik moritz: acknowledged, thanks
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14:12 pmichaud isBEKaml: yes, those are in perl6/bench-scripts
14:12 pmichaud I'm copying many of those scripts (as appropriate) into rpmark
14:13 * pmichaud still on fence between "rpmark" and "rpbench"  (or even something else entirely)
14:14 JimmyZ_ +1 to rpbench
14:14 pmichaud maybe I should call them "onions"... because so far when I open them up, they make me cry.  1/2 :-)
14:14 JimmyZ_ I don't know what does mark mean
14:15 isBEKaml pmichaud: oh, thanks.
14:17 isBEKaml pmichaud: +1 to rpbench
14:17 isBEKaml JimmyZ_: mark as in bench_mark_
14:17 isBEKaml :)
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14:19 JimmyZ_ isBEKaml:  yes, but it does not give me that impression
14:21 isBEKaml JimmyZ_: yes, I guess that's part of the reason we both voted for rpbench. :)
14:21 JimmyZ_ yeah
14:23 PerlJam pmichaud: I vote rpbench btw.   Makes me think of "bench testing" and such
14:23 pmichaud wfm
14:32 pmichaud speed.pypy.org uses geometric mean (of a suite of tests) to compare pypy against other python implementations.  is geometric mean a good calculation to use for a "composite index" like this?
14:33 pmichaud i.e., if I wanted to come up with an overall comparison of one build versus another... would geometric mean of the benchmark times of each work?
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14:35 PerlJam I looked at speed.pypy.org and really I have no idea what their overall speed score really *means*
14:35 colomon my first naive thought would be arithmetic mean of the percentage difference?  I'm not sure why geometric mean might be preferred.
14:35 PerlJam It didn't look like it was tied in any way to the importance of the feature being tested
14:35 colomon +1
14:35 pmichaud I'm pretty sure arithmetic mean of percentage won't be quite right
14:36 pmichaud PerlJam: my guess on speed.pypy.org is this:  consider the first two benchmarks -- they have speeds that are .65 and .07 of cpython
14:36 pmichaud so to find "how much better is pypy than cpython", report the geometric mean of the two
14:38 pmichaud although since geometric means are always less than arithmetic means... there might be a bias there
14:39 PerlJam pmichaud: but better at *what*?  It presupposes that the benchmarks adequately measure the speed of "important" things and doesn't unduly consider the speed of "unimportant" things
14:39 pmichaud PerlJam: that's outside the scope of what I'm trying to do
14:39 colomon "The geometric mean is more appropriate than the arithmetic mean for describing proportional growth..." sounds like an argument for percentages and geometric mean.
14:40 pmichaud the number just needs to say "on this set of benchmarks, build A did X factor better than build B"
14:40 pmichaud I'm not trying to make larger claims about the overall improvement
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14:42 pmichaud I'll go with geometric mean of the percentages for now
14:42 pmichaud thanks
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16:23 jdv79 will these benchmarks be posted somewhere?
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16:36 sorear moritz: to get a useful response on p6l I would need to be much clearer, because it's not as easy to go back and forth...
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16:58 moritz sorear: what you want is two languages, one treating the same sequence of characters as one character, and the other treating them as distinct characters. Correct?
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17:15 sorear moritz: basically, yes
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17:16 sorear moritz: really what I'm after is cases where a grapheme-level .comb, .length, or .substr goes wrong
17:16 sorear The Unicode standard itself special-cases Korean, so Korean is definitely not such a language
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17:21 sorear observation: Rakudo  2011.05 still doesn't have a name
17:21 Su-Shee "George-Henry Miller-Whipplesteen"?
17:22 sorear Su-Shee: what county is George-Henry Miller-Whipplesteen.pm in?
17:23 Su-Shee *hehe* Absurdistan ;)
17:23 tadzik shame there's no masak around, we may be able to go for Zebras.pm then ;)
17:24 * sorear wonders what ey needs to do to get niecza supported by rpmark
17:31 moritz sorear: I guess test scripts that run both with rakudo and niecza
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17:51 arnsholt sorear: Ping?
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17:57 arnsholt phenny: tell sorear I'm read Devanagari (of the Sanskrit variety, slightly different rules than the Hindi one) and Wikpedia-familiar with Arabic script. What do you need to know?
17:57 phenny arnsholt: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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20:32 flussence ooh, someone's making a bash script parsing library for GSoC. The fun I could have with that...
20:32 sbp link?
20:33 flussence http://dev.gentoo.org/~qiaomuf/libbash.html
20:33 sbp thanks!
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20:40 moritz what's wrong with the parser in bash?
20:41 moritz bash has the -n option for syntax checking, so it can surely parse without executing
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20:43 flussence I think the main reason for this as a library is for embedding in gentoo's package management stuff, because it saves a few hundred forks that way
20:43 flussence (all the packages are bash scripts, more or less)
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20:46 moritz and it only needs to parse (and not execute) them=
20:46 moritz s/=/?/
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20:47 flussence IIRC, the package format spec says external commands are only allowed in a few specific places, all the metadata should be plain bash syntax
20:48 flussence (not that people always follow the spec...)
20:48 moritz that's close to the borderline between genious and insanity, or something
20:49 flussence nah, it's a few light years from that line :)
20:49 moritz on which side? :-)
20:50 flussence well, people have forked the distro more than once over the state of this stuff, so... :)
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21:08 moritz \o
21:10 Util \o
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22:12 pmichaud Latest benchmark results (with updated toolset): http://gist.github.com/979705
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22:35 PerlJam pmichaud: smaller numbers are better?
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22:36 flussence those are times, so yes
22:36 PerlJam just checking
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23:12 whiteknight is it possible to print some kind of status information to the console during the core.pm build?
23:12 whiteknight like, the name of each function as it is compiled
23:12 whiteknight or anything that would show forward progress?
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23:13 pmichaud we'd have to add something to nqp
23:13 pmichaud er, nqp-rx
23:13 whiteknight does Rakudo use the version of parrot-nqp that's bundled with Parrot?
23:13 pmichaud yes
23:13 whiteknight ok
23:14 pmichaud benchmark results for plum:  http://gist.github.com/979705
23:14 whiteknight I may try to add something to the perl6 actions file, to print out something when we compile a function
23:14 whiteknight if I can find a suitable place to add such a beast
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