Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-06-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:19 dalek rakudo/nom: cfff0c8 | jnthn++ | src/ (297 files):
00:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Make it clearer what's going away and just left in the repo for reference and, in cases where it's good, copying into new places.
00:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cfff0c802d
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00:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 709fd6c | jnthn++ | src/old/builtins/ (6 files):
00:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Toss some stuff from old that contains nothing interesting to review.
00:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/709fd6c6f2
00:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 31dde87 | jnthn++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
00:45 dalek rakudo/nom: Couple of nommap updates.
00:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/31dde870be
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00:57 jnthn pmichaud: When I do perl Configure.pl --parrot-config=... I get:
00:57 jnthn ===SORRY!===
00:57 jnthn I'm missing some needed files in the install directory: C:/Consulting/rakudo/parrot_install/bin/parrot
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00:57 jnthn It's the right directory but it seems to have missed the executable extension.
00:57 jnthn Sleep time...can look tomorrow if you don't get chance before I wake up. :)
00:57 jnthn 'night #perl6
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01:00 joshua__ hello, which Moose modules should I download to try to get some Perl6 object flavor into my Perl5?
01:01 joshua__ is there a difference between Moose and MooseX?
01:02 joshua__ is there something better than Moose (that comes even closer to the Perl6 model?)
01:03 dalek nqp: ef23ef5 | pmichaud++ | / (2 files):
01:03 dalek nqp: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp
01:03 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ef23ef5833
01:03 dalek nqp: f152ca1 | pmichaud++ | Configure.pl:
01:03 dalek nqp: Fix .exe bug in verify_install (jnthn++).
01:03 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f152ca1a2c
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01:05 pmichaud jnthn: fixed .exe bug
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01:12 joshua__ i found some more Moose info online.... getting Moose now... l8r
01:15 cotto Which nqp branch do I need to play with the Rakudo nom branch?
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01:24 pmichaud nqp master
01:24 pmichaud cotto: nqp master
01:24 cotto pmichaud, ok.  that segfaults during the build
01:24 pmichaud with which parrot?
01:25 cotto master
01:25 pmichaud checking.
01:26 pmichaud today/tomorrow I plan to be reworking the build system of rakudo nom... it's a bit suboptimal at the moment
01:26 cotto also, nqp master's Configure.pl doesn't find my parrot_config, even though it's in my path
01:27 pmichaud nqp only looks at specific directories -- doesn't normally check the PATH
01:27 pmichaud I suppose it could.
01:27 cotto ok
01:27 pmichaud that wouldn't seem to be too hard to add.
01:27 cotto works fine if I tell it with --parrot-config
01:28 pmichaud still with the segfault?
01:28 cotto yes
01:28 cotto rebuilt/reinstalled parrot too
01:28 pmichaud I just built Parrot master, I'm trying nqp with it now
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01:29 cotto retrying with ccache cleared.  I might have some wonky ram.
01:29 pmichaud nqp seems to have built okay for me with parrot master
01:29 pmichaud pmichaud@kiwi:~/nqp$ ./nqp --version
01:29 pmichaud This is nqp version build-2011.05-15-gf152ca1 built on parrot 3.4.0 revision RELEASE_3_4_0-138-g00bdcb5
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01:30 cotto bus error
01:30 pmichaud 32 bit or 64?
01:30 cotto awesome
01:30 cotto 64
01:30 pmichaud same here
01:30 pmichaud does it work for you with 3.4.0, ooc?
01:31 cotto let's find out
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01:37 cotto yes
01:37 pmichaud so, something changed between 3.4.0 and master then
01:37 pmichaud okay, we can see about tracking it down
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01:38 Moukeddar hey guys ,
01:38 Moukeddar this : http://www.lynda.com/Perl-5-tutoria​ls/essential-training/61025-2.html
01:38 Moukeddar or
01:38 Moukeddar this : http://www.vtc.com/products/Pe​rl-Fundamentals-tutorials.htm
01:38 Moukeddar ?
01:39 dalek nqp: c6c3fdd | pmichaud++ | tools/lib/NQP/Config.pm:
01:39 dalek nqp: Allow using parrot_config found in search path.  cotto++
01:39 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c6c3fdd4d4
01:42 cotto Now I get "Cannot open output file Perl6/ModuleLoader.pbc"
01:42 cotto during the Rakudo build
01:42 cotto (Rakudo master)
01:42 cotto er, nom
01:43 cotto looks like a bit of build wackiness.  It should be writing to src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.pbc
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01:54 cotto be back later this evening
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01:56 sorear joshua__: join #moose on irc.perl.org
01:56 Util Moukeddar: You are certainly welcome to be here, but your Perl 5 questions may get more answers on #perl-help on irc.perl.org.
01:56 sorear joshua__: ask them to explain what the difference between Moose and MooseX is
01:57 Util eXtreme!!! :)
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02:16 Moukeddar uhm, right , right
02:16 Moukeddar anycase , what do you think ?
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03:46 dalek nqp: a4f80df | pmichaud++ | Configure.pl:
03:46 dalek nqp: Add a --make-install option to Configure.pl, to automatically build
03:46 dalek nqp: and install NQP after configuration is complete.  (This will normally
03:46 dalek nqp: be used only by other systems wanting to do --gen-nqp.)
03:46 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a4f80dfc2a
03:54 joshua__ sorear, thanks for the moose pointers
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04:20 sorear stefan@stefans:~/rel/niecza$ mono-sgen run/Niecza.exe -e 'my $x = 2; say eval q[$x + 1]'
04:20 sorear 3
04:20 sorear \o/
04:21 JimmyZ pmichaud : NQP can not build on windows 7 with strawberry perl 5.10.1 :  https://gist.github.com/1001777 , JFYI.
04:21 dalek niecza: 1de763c | sorear++ | / (10 files):
04:21 dalek niecza: Implement variable reference in evals, evals returning values
04:21 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1de763ca1b
04:21 JimmyZ \o sorear
04:22 sorear hi JimmyZ
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04:51 cotto back
04:53 sorear hi cotto
04:54 cotto is anyone else seeing oddness on the Rakudo nom branch?
04:54 sorear you mean like it not working basically at all?
04:54 cotto the build is broken
04:55 sorear oh
04:55 dalek niecza: 1767fe8 | sorear++ | lib/CLRBackend.cs:
04:55 dalek niecza: Fix depended module autocompilation
04:55 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1767fe8e82
04:56 dalek roast: c318940 | sorear++ | S32-num/pi.t:
04:56 dalek roast: [S32-num/pi] The specs no longer require use Num :constants
04:56 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c3189409a0
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05:02 cotto I'm not sure how it could work given what the Makefile looks like, but it could be a local issue of some kind.
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05:13 sorear Who wrote fudge?  I can't understand it.
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05:21 * TimToady wrote it, and hence probably doesn't understand it either :)
05:25 jdhore1 <obligatory-"perl-is-a-wri​te-only-language"-schtick>
05:26 sorear uhm
05:27 sorear S06-advanced-subroutine-features/caller.t contains "is call_line(), 22, ..."
05:27 sorear ... but fudge changes the line numbers
05:27 sorear FAIL
05:28 TimToady I seem to recall that I wrote it not to change line numbers, but someone could have broken that
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05:29 dalek roast: 78711fd | sorear++ | S06-advanced_subroutine_features/caller.t:
05:29 dalek roast: Fudge S06-advanced_subroutine_features/caller.t for Niecza (only one test passes, but it is at least one Pugs failed)
05:29 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/78711fd57e
05:29 dalek niecza: f5a1f34 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
05:29 dalek niecza: A couple more CallFrame/Sub introspectors and two new test files
05:29 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f5a1f340a4
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05:49 cotto dukeleto, ping
05:49 cotto ww
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05:58 moritz perl6: say 1
05:58 p6eval pugs, rakudo 048573, niecza v6-8-g1767fe8: OUTPUT«1␤»
05:59 sorear interesting... my terminal font can render  Ⅻ in plain but not bold
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06:07 dukeleto cotto: pong
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06:12 cotto dukeleto, resolved
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06:35 sorear perl6: my Str $x; say $x.succ.perl
06:35 p6eval niecza v6-9-gf5a1f34: OUTPUT«1␤»
06:35 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Str: "&succ"␤    at /tmp/lT_iKUTHb0 line 1, column 16 - line 2, column 1␤»
06:35 p6eval ..rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«"Sts()"␤»
06:35 sorear perl6: my Str $x; $x++; say $x.perl
06:35 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«\1␤»
06:35 p6eval ..rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤    Container type: Str␤               Got: Int␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 7674:CORE.setting␤»
06:35 p6eval ..niecza v6-9-gf5a1f34: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed for scalar store; got Int, needed Str or subtype␤  at /tmp/Op0xCkFnfx line 0 (MAIN mainline @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1475 (CORE C653_ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line
06:35 p6eval ..1476 (CORE modul…
06:35 sorear TimToady: help
06:35 sorear TimToady: what is the correct result
06:36 sorear Sts() is especially funny
06:36 moritz that's clearly a hilarious bug :-)
06:40 szabgab moritz: thanks for posting the installer
06:41 szabgab I have two files a readme on how to build it and the .iss of that builds the installer, I guess they should go into the rakudo rep
06:41 szabgab o
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06:42 moritz szabgab: sadly the upload was not successful :(
06:42 moritz szabgab: I've just contacted the github support over it
06:43 szabgab oh crap
06:44 sorear moritz: have you tried again post-http://twitter.com/github/status/75708855895605248
06:44 szabgab and I blogged about it already
06:44 szabgab what do you mean it was not successful btw, it seems to be there?
06:45 moritz szabgab: it told me the upload was unsuccessfull, and didn't show me the file
06:45 moritz "Something went wrong that shouldn't have. Please try again or contact support if the problem persists."
06:45 szabgab I'll try to fetch it from github and compare to the one I have
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06:46 moritz now I see it too
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06:48 Su-Shee good morning.
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06:53 sorear rakudo: say "*".succ
06:53 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«*␤»
06:55 szabgab I can't wget from github
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06:57 szabgab I downloaded it using a browser and installed it on the windows machine
06:57 szabgab so it seesm to be ok
06:58 sorear szabgab: certificate issue?
06:58 szabgab with wget, yes
06:58 szabgab but I don't need it any more
06:59 sorear that problem has been around since the very first time I tried to wget from github
06:59 sorear niecza's Makefile has --no-check-certificate
07:02 sorear rakudo: say "00001".pred
07:02 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«00000␤»
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07:09 sorear rakudo: say "az99".succ
07:09 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«ba00␤»
07:09 sorear rakudo: say "z99".succ
07:09 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«aa00␤»
07:09 sorear rakudo: say "99".succ
07:09 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«100␤»
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07:22 * moritz is a bit surprised by 'z99'.succ
07:23 sorear it's special cased at src/builtins/Str.pir:203
07:23 sorear and metntioned in the spec
07:23 sorear S03:468
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07:27 moritz ah well
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07:40 dalek niecza: 6caf918 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
07:40 dalek niecza: Add Str.succ, Str.pred, cheaty polymorphic comparison, let "a".."z" work
07:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6caf918bd7
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07:45 * sorear -> sleep
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07:47 moritz prove -e "mono" obj/MAIN.exe
07:47 moritz obj/MAIN.exe .. Failed 3/891 subtests
07:47 moritz not ok 733 - Tail exclusion works
07:48 moritz #           got: 1 2 3 4 5
07:48 moritz #      expected: 1 2 3 4
07:48 moritz and the next three tests fail with similar errors
07:49 moritz sorear: and lots of spectests fails
07:50 moritz http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6162484/w​hy-does-modern-perl-avoid-utf-8-by-default/  # "I played around with rakudo and UTF-8 was just there as I needed. I did have no problems, it just worked. Maybe there are some limitation somewhere deeper, but at start, all I tested worked as I expected."
07:50 * moritz hopes that cheers up pmichaud++ a bit
07:52 mathw From what I gathered from all that, the reason Unicode in Perl 5 is such a pain is because it wasn't built to be Unicode
07:52 mathw so the builtin comparisons don't do Unicode things
07:52 mathw and so forth
07:52 mathw and also the usual things which make unicode a pain, and require people to learn stuff
07:53 moritz the real reason is that Perl 5 doesn't expose types to the user
07:53 moritz so buffers and strings can't have separate types
07:53 mathw (on a vaguely-related tangent, I've found Firefox misidentifying page encodings a lot lately. Irritatingly, including some pages which declare they're utf-8 but it insists it should decode as ISO-whatever-useless-crap)
07:53 moritz and that makes it impossible to polymorphically treat strings and buffers sanely
07:54 moritz and very easy to mix the two up, and get mojibake
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07:58 mathw yes, that's a good point
07:59 mathw there's a distinct difference in the modern world between bytes lined up in a row and a string of characters
07:59 moritz at least that's what caused the most trouble for me, and prevented me (and other) from writing modules that make UTF-8 magically work in perl 5
08:00 mathw Personally having read that I would not choose Perl 5 for a project that needed solid Unicode support
08:00 mathw unless it was something very straightforward indeed
08:00 moritz fwiw I'm having no troubles with Perl 5 and Unicode in my current web project
08:00 mathw I think this is one clear advantage Perl 6 will have when we're in a production state
08:00 mathw it does depend what you need to do with it though
08:00 moritz but I'm well aware of the gotchas, and what I need to do
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08:01 moritz http://faui2k3.org:3333/title/80963 that fancy ż comes from an automated import of worldcat data - no trouble whatsoever :-)
08:01 mathw :)
08:02 mathw excellent
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08:08 sorear can't sleep
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08:08 moritz :/
08:10 mathw can't sleep? fix bugs!
08:10 mathw but then you might end up asleep with your face on the keyboard
08:10 mathw and that's never good
08:11 dalek niecza: 8e5c9f5 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
08:11 dalek niecza: Oops, was ignoring $!exclude_max by mistake in the new RangeIter (moritz++)
08:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8e5c9f51e6
08:11 sorear that wasn't too hard
08:11 moritz nqp: say(pir::stat('foo'))
08:11 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 24␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 118␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
08:11 moritz nqp: say(pir::stat__ps('foo'))
08:11 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 22␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 116␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
08:13 moritz nqp: say(pir::stat__isi('foo', 0))
08:13 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected IREG, expecting '(' ('$I16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 22␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 116␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
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08:13 moritz nqp: say(pir::stat__psi('foo', 0))
08:13 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 22␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 116␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
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08:16 pmichaud moritz/szabgab:  I deleted and reuploaded the file to github a bit earlier -- maybe that's what fixed it.
08:16 pmichaud but after reuploading, I also had difficulties in getting it to download (perhaps cache issue)
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08:19 moritz nqp: say(pir::stat__isi('foo', 0))
08:19 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected IREG, expecting '(' ('$I16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 22␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 116␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
08:19 pmichaud (pir::stat in nqp)   I'm thinking the needed dynoplib isn't loaded.
08:19 moritz meh
08:20 pmichaud looks like it's in io.ops
08:20 pmichaud I can add it to nqp if you'd like.
08:20 moritz and if I want it at nqp compile time, I have to add it to Actions.pm and rebootstrap, right?
08:21 pmichaud yeah
08:21 pmichaud you mean, you need it for building nqp itself?
08:21 pmichaud s/need/want/  # as appropriate
08:21 moritz pmichaud: I want to check the existence of files for module loading
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08:22 moritz pmichaud: my plan (for now) is a list of hardcoded prefixes of where to look for mofdules
08:22 moritz so we can have blib/Perl6/Foo.pm instead of Perl6/Foo.pm
08:22 pmichaud ultimately I want a -L option and/or an environment variable for that
08:22 pmichaud ...but instead of using stat, why not just check for failed open?
08:23 pmichaud (I'm still reeling from my earlier discovery that 'pow' is a dynop in Parrot.  WTF?)
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08:25 moritz pmichaud: isn't open() a bit wasteful, just for checking existence?
08:26 pmichaud it's not as efficient, no, but it'd be guaranteed to work.
08:26 dalek nqp: 395da2f | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
08:26 dalek nqp: Add io_ops to list of automatically loaded dynoplibs, so we can get
08:26 dalek nqp: <stat> and <printerr> (among many others).
08:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/395da2f5cb
08:26 pmichaud I didn't rebootstrap -- feel free to do that.
08:26 moritz pmichaud: the code currently uses load_bytecode. I could wrap that in a try { } block, but then I'd have some trouble printing the correct diagnostics on failure
08:27 * moritz has an identical commit locally
08:27 pmichaud the other thing to remember is that every opcode we use in NQP is something that we'll have to cross-vm support someday.
08:28 pmichaud I'm not sure where <stat> will fit in that.
08:29 moritz nqp: say ?pir::open('foobar')
08:29 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say ?pir::"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 26397 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:7037)␤»
08:29 moritz nqp: say ?pir::open__ps('foobar')
08:29 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say ?pir::"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 26397 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:7037)␤»
08:29 pmichaud nqp:  say(?pir::open('foobar'))
08:29 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 24␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤      in file '(file unknown)' line 25␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 119␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
08:29 moritz nqp: say(?pir::open('foobar'))
08:29 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P16')␤   in file '(file unknown)' line 24␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤      in file '(file unknown)' line 25␤error:imcc:syntax error ... somewhere␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 119␤syntax error ... somewhere␤»
08:29 pmichaud <open> is also a dynop
08:29 moritz aye, just figured
08:30 pmichaud I guess that makes it definite that we want the dynoplib
08:30 pmichaud either that or we go ahead and make our own IO pmc
08:31 moritz $ ./nqp -e 'say(? try{ pir::open__ps("foobar") } )'
08:31 moritz Unable to open filehandle from path 'foobar'
08:31 moritz + backtrace
08:31 pmichaud use stat.  :-)
08:34 pmichaud there's also the open() call in the setting.
08:36 moritz somehow my patch doesn't work :/
08:37 moritz it doesn't search blib/, althought I thought it should
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08:43 dalek niecza: d350ec8 | sorear++ | / (5 files):
08:43 dalek niecza: Refactor REPL code a bit
08:43 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d350ec818b
08:43 dalek niecza: e2ed743 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
08:43 dalek niecza: Suppress autoprint if explicit print used in REPL
08:43 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e2ed7436fe
08:43 lumi joined #perl6
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08:51 dalek niecza: 5f36c0e | sorear++ | src/niecza:
08:51 dalek niecza: Allow REPL to recover from exceptions
08:51 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5f36c0e5c9
08:59 dalek niecza: 774d996 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
08:59 dalek niecza: Allow using lexicals across lines in REPL
08:59 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/774d996840
09:00 pmichaud ModuleLoader.pbc feels wrongly factored to me.
09:01 dalek niecza: af39682 | sorear++ | src/niecza:
09:01 dalek niecza: Arrange for CORE to be run at least once so $*OUT is usable in REPL
09:01 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/af39682bc9
09:01 sorear now I'm going to try this "sleep" thing again
09:02 pmichaud sorear: yeah, "sleep" didn't work for me
09:02 pmichaud which is why I'm up at 4am
09:02 sorear (hopefully Niecza REPL is a skosh more usable now)
09:02 pmichaud sorear++ # niecza repl.... that took rakudo forever to get usable
09:05 moritz now I know why my nqp changes didn't affect rakudo/nom... installed to the wrong location :/
09:05 Sarten-X left #perl6
09:05 pmichaud nqp needs far more tests.
09:06 moritz agreed.
09:07 moritz fwiw the nqp harness for the regex tests is somewhat ugly and incomplete
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09:08 pmichaud well, I'm thinking we need tests for the other components that have been added; e.g., moduleloader
09:08 moritz \o/ seems to work-ish
09:09 jnthn morning o/
09:09 pmichaud jnthn: morning /o
09:09 pmichaud o/
09:09 pmichaud (my arms don't work right at 4am)
09:10 jnthn /o = scratching head thinking about something? :)
09:10 pmichaud more like "pulling my hair out because I can't get to sleep"
09:10 jnthn aww :-(
09:11 * jnthn wonders if any commits landed while he slept
09:11 pmichaud I added io_ops to the list of default loaded dynos
09:11 pmichaud *dynops
09:11 pmichaud so we get open/stat/printerr/etc.
09:11 moritz jnthn: I have local changes to nqp and nom to make the former look for modules in blib/
09:11 REPLeffect left #perl6
09:11 jnthn OK, great.
09:12 jnthn pmichaud: ah, you fixed the win32 issue in nqp too...or at least, I see the patch.
09:12 pmichaud I think I fixed it -- don't really have a way to test.
09:12 jnthn sure, I'll do that Real Soon Now :)
09:12 pmichaud what does 'set_mainline_module' actually do, ooc?
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09:15 jnthn pmichaud: Handles the case where you try to "use" the module that is also the program mainline
09:16 pmichaud does that happen?
09:16 jnthn pmichaud: masak++ ran into it when he wanted to play with language extensions, and wrote an NQP program that did use NQP;
09:16 moritz use Foo; in Foo.pm ?
09:16 moritz ah
09:16 moritz masak. Of Course.
09:16 pmichaud I don't understand.
09:16 jnthn moritz: Well, it's more of an issue for folks doing compiler stuff who want to derive from NQP.
09:17 pmichaud ...but if you're deriving from NQP, then you're not the mainline, right?
09:17 pmichaud I mean, then NQP isn't the mainline
09:18 jnthn pmichaud: If you do nqp foo.nqp and foo.nqp does "use NQP" you hit the issue where it's the mainline and you're using it.
09:18 pmichaud shouldn't that be handled by NQP, not the mainline code?
09:19 pmichaud deriving that fact from the executable name feels Very Wrong.
09:19 jnthn pmichaud: Yes, I don't especially like the current solution.
09:19 jnthn pmichaud: That's kinda why I factored things differently in rakudo
09:19 pmichaud in nom?
09:19 jnthn pmichaud: That is, a very small loader program that does a use statement.
09:19 jnthn Yes, in nom
09:20 pmichaud is there an NQP.pbc ?
09:20 pmichaud i.e., something that would be loaded by "use NQP;" ?
09:20 jnthn Yes.
09:21 pmichaud that's the thing that gets built by combining the NQP::* files?
09:21 jnthn pmichaud: The problem is twofold. First, Parrot doesn't recognize it's re-loading the same thing. But even if that was fixed we're not out of the woods, because we need the UNIT in order to do e.g. global merging and importing.
09:21 jnthn pmichaud: yes.
09:21 pmichaud I don't expect Parrot to detect it, no.
09:22 jnthn No, I didn't really consider it a bug.
09:22 pmichaud but there probably should be a src/NQP/NQP.pm that registers the fact that "NQP" has already been loaded.
09:22 pmichaud rather than asking every mainline to do it.
09:22 jnthn Well, I tried to solve the general problem rather than "just for NQP".
09:22 pmichaud describe the general problem, then :-)
09:23 pmichaud how often are we going to have     Something.pm   that also contains   "use Something;"   ?
09:23 jnthn A program a language is running wants to load its compiler, is doing separate compilation and the compiler is also the current program.
09:23 sorear pmichaud: well, it helps that I remember how I got the rakudo repl working :)
09:23 pmichaud I mean, does that ever happen in Perl 5?
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09:24 jnthn pmichaud: Probably not, but I'm not sure Perl 5 does separate compilation, nor is Perl 5 written in Perl 5. :)
09:24 sorear sleep still does not agree with me.
09:24 silug joined #perl6
09:24 jnthn pmichaud: It is, admittedly, solving an obscure problem in a non-ideal way.
09:25 pmichaud ...and introducing bugs in the process :-(
09:25 lumi left #perl6
09:25 jnthn Well, the original problem was also a bug.
09:25 daniel-s left #perl6
09:26 pmichaud I think it might be far more useful at this point to say that having a specific <language>.pm that marks it's been loaded
09:26 pmichaud is part of the pattern of creating any compiler-like program
09:26 lumi joined #perl6
09:26 pmichaud or, perhaps it's something that should be added to HLL::Compiler
09:27 moritz fwiw I've got rakudo to build with stuff in blib/Perl6/ instead of Perl6/
09:27 jnthn moritz++! :)
09:27 pmichaud moritz++
09:27 jnthn pmichaud: I could live with that approach too.
09:27 moritz but at runtime it still looks into Perl6/ to find the module loader :(
09:27 moritz what loads the module loader?
09:27 pmichaud the current module loader factorization feels very wrong to me
09:28 jnthn pmichaud: The locating modules bit almost certainly is.
09:28 pmichaud it's another thing that feels like it wants to be a part of HLL::*  (that can be subclassed/overridden by individual compilers)
09:29 pmichaud i.e., it really ought to be  HLL::ModuleLoader
09:29 jnthn pmichaud: But if it's in HLL, how does HLL load its dependencies?
09:29 jnthn pmichaud: It's really early in the build cycle because of that.
09:29 moritz ah, load_bytecode 'Perl6/ModuleLoader.pbc' is hard coded
09:29 jnthn moritz: Ah, yes.
09:30 jnthn moritz: The module loader can't use the module loader...a "fun" issue.
09:30 pmichaud I don't understand the "how does HLL load its dependencies" part
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09:30 pmichaud at least in nqp-rx,  any compiler expected to do the equivalent of 'load_bytecode HLL.pbc'  which got the base HLL type and all of its dependencies.
09:30 moritz seems I've got it working
09:31 moritz now I just need to remove the debug output and try again
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09:32 pmichaud put another way... I'm not sure that HLL::* has any dependencies
09:32 pmichaud it's pretty basic
09:33 jnthn At the of e.g. src/stage2/gen/HLL.pm, there's use NQPRegex;
09:33 pmichaud that appears to be the only one
09:33 jnthn *the top of
09:33 pmichaud so, HLL::Grammar has a dependency
09:34 pmichaud but if ModuleLoader is part of HLL, that might not be much of an issue.
09:34 sorear perl6: say +[ [1,3,2].sort ]
09:34 p6eval pugs, rakudo 048573, niecza v6-16-gaf39682: OUTPUT«3␤»
09:35 pmichaud I agree it's a bit of a bootstrap issue... but HLL:: is where some of those bootstrap issues might want resolving
09:35 jnthn pmichaud: <uncomfortable look>
09:35 jnthn pmichaud: It may be possible but it won't be easy.
09:35 jnthn pmichaud: It'll be at least *easier* when we have PAST in NQP
09:35 jnthn And can shove all of that in HLL too.
09:36 jnthn Because that's what NQPRegex really cares about.
09:36 jnthn At the moment though, I think it'll be hard to do a refactor of that.
09:36 yinyin joined #perl6
09:37 pmichaud well, we've changed the basic premises that underlay the previous structure
09:37 jnthn For sure.
09:37 jnthn load_bytecode 'HLL.pbc' is no longer good enough for loading a module.
09:37 pmichaud it never was
09:37 pmichaud well, it partially was
09:38 jnthn Well, it "worked" before. Now it doesn't.
09:38 jnthn (Since we're using Parrot namespaces, so stuff ain't just magically reachable, etc)
09:38 jnthn gah, we're *not* using...
09:39 dalek niecza: 892ece4 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
09:39 dalek niecza: Implement automatic Schwartzian transform for arity 1 callbacks
09:39 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/892ece41a2
09:39 pmichaud that's not the issue I'm seeing/thinking of, though.
09:39 pmichaud Regex.pbc was a separate library before because one could write nqp-rx programs that would need regexes but that weren't necessarily compilers
09:39 jnthn *nod*
09:41 jnthn That pulled in HLL and so forth to compile the regexes though, I guess?
09:41 pmichaud I don't think it pulled in HLL
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09:41 pmichaud nqp-rx (the compiler) would already have the regex compilation code available
09:42 pmichaud but you still needed the regex engine at runtime, when nqp-rx compiler was perhaps long gone
09:42 pmichaud (i.e., you needed the Match and Cursor types)
09:42 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, I remember loading something by default to make that work.
09:43 jnthn pmichaud: Otherwise the regex tests in t/nqp/ would all fail.
09:43 jnthn pmichaud: BTW, nqp fix for Win32 works :)
09:43 pmichaud excellent
09:43 pmichaud okay, I'll think about all of this a bit more
09:43 pmichaud I agree that ModuleLoader doesn't belong in HLL::
09:44 jnthn pmichaud: Anyway, I agree overall that we can refactor the NQP module loading bits. *but* it was really hard work getting the bootstrap and separate compilation straight.
09:44 pmichaud I'm not sure where it fits
09:44 jnthn Well, I wasn't sure it fitted anywhere, so it ended up on its own. :)
09:45 pmichaud on its own may be correct
09:45 jnthn I kinda wonder if we should provide a ModuleLoader in HLL that we expect HLLs to subclass
09:45 jnthn BUT it's not the one NQP tends to use for its own lower level bits.
09:45 pmichaud I'm wondering to what degree it's really NQP/ModuleLoader
09:45 pmichaud (that is loaded by every nqp program)
09:46 dalek niecza: b84eb2d | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
09:46 dalek niecza: Allow %hash1 = { a => 1 } to work
09:46 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b84eb2d9a6
09:46 pmichaud perhaps it's really in the same category as   the basic Object classes and types
09:46 jnthn Well, those sit in the setting.
09:46 jnthn And something's gotta load the setting too :)
09:46 dalek roast: c8bbc95 | sorear++ | S04-statement-modifiers/until.t:
09:46 dalek roast: Fudge S04-statement-modifiers/until.t for niecza
09:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c8bbc956d7
09:46 dalek roast: 22c8549 | sorear++ | S02-literals/hash-interpolation.t:
09:46 dalek roast: Fudge hash-interpolation for niecza
09:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/22c85491ff
09:47 pmichaud I'm a little concerned by "_the_ setting"
09:48 jnthn Well, I really meant "the default setting" :)
09:48 pmichaud "core setting", normally.  :-)
09:48 jnthn --setting=SettingNowWithAddedPonies :)
09:48 jnthn Yes, the default is NQPCORE
09:49 jnthn But --setting=NULL means don't load one
09:49 jnthn And --setting=...namehere... means use that one.
09:51 dalek nqp: 03db0cb | jonathan++ | src/6model/sixmodelobject.h:
09:51 dalek nqp: Add a pointer to the STable where a REPR can optionally hang any type-specific data, so we can refactor away from 'REPR instances'.
09:51 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/03db0cb234
09:52 jnthn pmichaud: btw, already added --setting= flag to nom too :)
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09:53 pmichaud looks like Perl 6 uses --language=  and -L for that
09:53 pmichaud instead of --setting
09:54 lumi joined #perl6
09:55 jnthn ah, ok
09:55 jnthn renaming is easy :)
09:57 pmichaud I don't quite understand the terms in merge_globals, either
09:57 pmichaud let me re-review my CORE:: concepts
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09:58 pmichaud what does "GLOBAL merger" mean (ModuleLoader.pm:50)
09:58 pmichaud ?
09:59 jnthn In separate compilation, every module starts out with a fresh view of GLOBAL.
09:59 jnthn If we load that module, then its view of GLOBAL needs to be unified with the loader's view.
10:00 jnthn And any conflicts complained about.
10:01 jnthn e.g. if you use Foo and use Bar and both have a class Llama { } installed in their GLOBAL (the default module you start out in), then it's an error.
10:01 pmichaud huh?
10:01 jnthn er, if you use them both.
10:01 pmichaud wouldn't that end up being  Foo::Llama and Bar::Llama, though?
10:02 pmichaud I didn't think there was a "global" GLOBAL
10:02 jnthn There's not per se. There's only "the current thing I'm running/compiling's view of GLOBAL"
10:03 pmichaud which is UNIT::GLOBAL
10:03 jnthn Yes.
10:03 jnthn Well
10:03 pmichaud I don't understand where the "merger" comes into play.
10:04 jnthn If you use two modules they'll both have their own view of what is global.
10:04 * jnthn tries to find the bit of irclog where TimToady++ talked about this
10:04 pmichaud right, no problem
10:05 jnthn pmichaud: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-03-12#i_3385886
10:06 sorear jnthn: how sophisticated is your merger?
10:06 amkrankruleuen left #perl6
10:06 sorear where is it?
10:06 wamba joined #perl6
10:06 jnthn sorear: It's...dumb. :)
10:07 jnthn sorear: NQP, src/ModuleLoader.pm
10:07 dalek niecza: a844392 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
10:07 dalek niecza: Hack - direct references to &eval disable block inlining
10:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a84439204e
10:07 dalek niecza: b80f0d0 | sorear++ | lib/CORE.setting:
10:07 dalek niecza: Fix Rop
10:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b80f0d0b42
10:07 sorear thanks
10:08 jnthn sorear: I think it even mentions your one as the place to look to. :)
10:09 pmichaud jnthn: okay, it makes a bit more sense to me now.
10:09 jnthn pmichaud: also http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-04-16#i_3519815
10:09 sorear How easy is it to have nqpnom running alongside nqprx, with the same Parrot install
10:10 pmichaud should be no problem.
10:10 donri joined #perl6
10:10 donri http://paddy3118.blogspot.com/2011/0​6/what-httpperl6org-gets-right.html
10:10 pmichaud or, when we're done, shouldn't be any real problem.
10:10 donri haah
10:10 donri he managed to make it sound sexist
10:10 jnthn sorear: Works.
10:10 amkrankruleuen joined #perl6
10:11 jnthn sorear: Has to, since Parrot itself uses nqp-rx in its build :)
10:11 dalek roast: 7ad8b9d | sorear++ | S0 (2 files):
10:11 dalek roast: [S03-metaops/hyper] remove a lot of niecza fudges; rearrange the >>+++<< test so niecza will accept it
10:11 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7ad8b9d16e
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10:12 pmichaud jnthn: ...unless we overwrite any of the .pbc's that nqp-rx expects.
10:12 wamba left #perl6
10:13 pmichaud then nqp-rx would stop functioning.
10:14 jnthn pmichaud: Yes, I mean that we very carefully don't do that. :)
10:14 pmichaud okay.
10:14 pmichaud (global merge)  I guess I never understood that any sort of a unification/merge needed to take place.  still don't.
10:14 jnthn moritz++ and I hunted down those name conflicts earlier and made sure they were avoided.
10:15 lumi left #perl6
10:16 dalek nqp: f5c61a4 | moritz++ | src/stage0/ (6 files):
10:16 dalek nqp: rebootstrap with io_ops loaded
10:16 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f5c61a42f2
10:16 dalek nqp: b94c439 | moritz++ | src/ModuleLoader.pm:
10:16 dalek nqp: search in blib/ for modules unless a module path was specified
10:16 Sarten-X left #perl6
10:16 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b94c439b78
10:16 lumi joined #perl6
10:17 dalek rakudo/nom: cf09768 | moritz++ | / (4 files):
10:17 dalek rakudo/nom: [build] move Perl6/ to blib/Perl6
10:17 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cf09768ef0
10:17 moritz do I need to bump NQP_REVISION or so? :-)
10:17 pmichaud yes, likely.
10:17 jnthn Does nom's build pay attention to NQP_REVISION yet?
10:17 pmichaud no
10:17 jnthn OK
10:18 pmichaud at least, I haven't done that part yet.
10:18 * moritz doesn't even see such a file
10:18 pmichaud started on it and decided some small refactors were in order first.
10:18 pmichaud nom doesn't currently have a NQP_REVISION yet.
10:20 pmichaud I've forgotten... what does "knowhow" mean again?
10:21 jnthn pmichaud: It's a really, really simple type of object.
10:21 jnthn pmichaud: Just has methods and attributes
10:21 jnthn pmichaud: It's the only meta-object that 6model "natively" provides.
10:22 jnthn It's also self-describing.
10:22 jnthn e.g. KnowHOW.HOW.HOW.HOW.HOW.... :)
10:22 pmichaud so, basically, the most primitive object system
10:22 jnthn Yes
10:22 pmichaud on which the other object systems get built
10:22 jnthn Yes.
10:22 jnthn NQP builds its one directly on top of it.
10:23 jnthn Rakudo builds its on top of NQP, so we can factor the Perl 6 metamodel in terms of roles.
10:23 pmichaud so, with   "knowhow ModuleLoader {" .... what do we get, exactly?
10:23 pmichaud a type object?
10:23 jnthn Yes.
10:23 pmichaud no instances, BUILD, etc.?
10:23 jnthn No
10:23 jnthn If you want an instance you can get one.
10:23 Sarten-X joined #perl6
10:24 jnthn Using the repr_instance_of op
10:24 jnthn But it's really a blank slate
10:24 jnthn NQPClassHOW uses knowhow, and builds an implementatin of classes.
10:24 dalek niecza: 864810b | sorear++ | lib/CORE.setting:
10:24 dalek niecza: <cmp> nicer about different Numeric types
10:24 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/864810b2fd
10:25 jnthn For the ModuleLoader case we never actually make an instance though
10:25 jnthn It's a singleton, essentially.
10:25 jnthn For NQPClassHOW we do make instances.
10:27 * jnthn cleans us REPR handling a bit to resolve an issue that's long bothered him
10:28 pmichaud the 6model stuff is.... shiny.
10:28 Sarten-X left #perl6
10:29 pmichaud I mean, really *sweet*
10:30 jnthn .oO( phew! )
10:30 jnthn :)
10:31 amkrankruleuen left #perl6
10:31 * jnthn is pretty happy with it so far
10:31 jnthn Well, apart from the rough edges that I'm not so happy with... :)
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10:35 pmichaud I think I really want to have a   src/NQP/NQP.pm  that   declares   module NQP { ... }   and has _something_ about it that registers that nqp.pbc is already loaded.
10:38 pmichaud _or_
10:38 pmichaud I think that %modules_loaded should strip any extensions
10:38 lumi left #perl6
10:39 pmichaud (any extensions that are the common "this is a module" extensions)
10:39 lumi joined #perl6
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10:41 jnthn Either of those would probably be cleaner.
10:41 pmichaud also, I'm thinking ModuleLoader might want the equivalent of an @*INC attribute
10:41 moritz +1
10:42 pmichaud since moritz++ put in the blib/ patch, none of these are urgent-this-day types of things
10:42 pmichaud well, maybe stripping the extension, so that we don't get the mainline bit
10:47 pmichaud 5:45am here.  probably not worth trying to sleep.
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10:49 jnthn Ugh.
10:50 pmichaud I'll at least go rest for a bit... bbl
10:50 pmichaud thanks for the excellent answers to my nom/6model questions :
10:50 pmichaud :)
10:52 jnthn Sorry some of them were a bit precaffienated :)
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10:57 jnthn pmichaud: oh noes...there is some nqp makefile breakage still, it seems
10:57 jnthn instead of \
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11:18 masak lol! I just submitted my first Actbug! :)
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11:19 jnthn masak: Do you have to break *everything*?! :P
11:19 masak that's a trick question, right? :)
11:19 masak of course I do. :)
11:19 jnthn :)
11:20 Grrrr The Act of Bug
11:22 masak it should be possible to formulate a theory of development in terms of these artifacts: feature requests, unit tests, bug reports, and... a fourth, unnamed artifact having to do with debugging.
11:25 moritz if you're after theory, you don't need to distinguis bug reports and feature requests
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11:32 masak moritz: troo, in a sense.
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11:32 JimmyZ_ is now known as JimmyZ
11:32 masak "Go is not the best game. It is the only game." -- this reminded me of Perl 6 :)
11:32 masak gtg, bit of $workday left.
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11:42 dalek nqp: d12b30c | jonathan++ | Configure.pl:
11:42 dalek nqp: Make sure we get path seps right on Win32.
11:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d12b30cb20
11:42 dalek nqp: 044691c | jonathan++ | src/ (6 files):
11:42 dalek nqp: REPR refactor. Avoid the memory-wasting concept of REPR instances as used by P6opaque and instead just give them a place in the STable to hang any data they're interested in keeping around. This in turn guts the REPR PMC and pretty much eliminates the need for it.
11:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/044691ce7a
11:42 dalek nqp: 4adf446 | jonathan++ | src/ (11 files):
11:42 dalek nqp: Simplify the REPR API, thanks to not having REPR instances any more. Means we pass an argument less for loads of really common operations.
11:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4adf44692b
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11:46 dalek rakudo/nom: cdc2295 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
11:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Not going to need/use perl6str PMC any more.
11:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cdc2295ed3
11:46 dalek rakudo/nom: a11fd9f | jnthn++ | src/binder/sixmodelobject.h:
11:46 dalek rakudo/nom: Chase 6model API changes.
11:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a11fd9ff2b
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12:13 tadzik we're now using native strings instead of String pmc?
12:14 pmichaud don't know, yet.
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12:14 pmichaud should be native when we're done, yes.
12:15 pmichaud but Perl6Str is something we haven't really used in a long time
12:15 pmichaud jnthn: ah yes, I forgot to put back in the MSWin32 stuff.  thanks for adding it   jnthn++
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12:16 jnthn pmichaud: np. It was amusing to see how the failure manifested itself.
12:17 jnthn pmichaud: It turns out any command starting C:/ is totally ignored....
12:17 tadzik so our native string is reimplementing what perl6str.pmc is doing, like string resizing or stuff like this?
12:17 jnthn So it didn't even fail to build. It just...built nothing.
12:17 pmichaud tadzik: no, we weren't even using perl6str.pmc
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12:17 tadzik oh, I see
12:17 pmichaud most of our strings have been String PMCs
12:20 tadzik yeah, I forgot about that one
12:20 jnthn pmichaud: Did a refactor in 6model core this morning...mostly cleanup. Going to turn my attention to containers now.
12:20 tadzik oh, btw. I raised the issue of non-relocatable Rakudo on #parrotsketch yesterday. Cotto advised me to open a trac ticket, could you do that pmichaud? You have more expertise in the field
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12:44 pmichaud tadzik: actually, I don't have a windows machine so I can't really report the error well (more)
12:45 pmichaud tadzik: my suggestion is to download + build the latest release of Parrot, do a "make install-dev", move the directory to a different location, and then report whatever error results when you try to run Parrot programs.
12:46 pmichaud if you send me that information, I can make a ticket out of it.
12:46 pmichaud or, you can make a ticket, and I'll follow-up with whatever additional information I have.
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12:49 lkundrak hi
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12:51 JimmyZ aloha
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13:04 lkundrak is this a good channel to ask a parrot question? what's the purpose of .declarations files?
13:05 JimmyZ lkundrak: irc://irc.parrot.org/#parrot
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13:20 lkundrak JimmyZ: thanks
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14:33 dalek roast: ef1d26d | sorear++ | S (7 files):
14:33 dalek roast: Miscellaneous niecza unfudges
14:33 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ef1d26dc63
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15:46 colomon rakudo: say 10.im
15:46 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«Method 'im' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/esBAPWVR2t␤»
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15:55 isBEKaml rakudo: +"10".say
15:55 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«10␤»
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15:56 TimToady um...
15:56 TimToady rakudo: +"phooey".say
15:56 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«phooey␤»
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15:56 isBEKaml that's odd. I was thinking + should numify checking the types.
15:56 TimToady precedence
15:57 isBEKaml but the Sts() was hilarious :)
15:57 TimToady you're numifying the result of .say
15:57 isBEKaml rakudo: say +"foo"
15:57 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:57 isBEKaml expected? or should throw an error?
15:58 TimToady I believe it's currently specced to issue a warning
15:59 TimToady buubot_backup: use warnings; +"foo"
15:59 buubot_backup TimToady: Couldn't match input.
15:59 TimToady buubot_backup: eval: use warnings; +"foo"
15:59 buubot_backup TimToady: foo
15:59 TimToady duh
15:59 TimToady buubot_backup: eval: use warnings; 0+"foo"
15:59 buubot_backup TimToady: Argument "foo" isn't numeric in addition (+) at (eval 28) line 1. 0
16:00 isBEKaml yes, choice now lies between warning or an error.
16:00 TimToady well, there's two kind of error too
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16:00 isBEKaml I'd much rather the compiler throw back an error on something the programmer must have unwittingly done than believe he "does" the right thing. (Note, not DWIM)
16:01 TimToady *kinds
16:01 TimToady I'd much prefer that Perl 6 never throw where it could merely fail
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16:03 isBEKaml hmm, one thing I could think of is (web scenario) -- we are passing currencies/numeric data over http, basically strings and I'm trying to parse them taking the numerics, what if, at one position, it suddenly turns out that it is not actually a number?
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16:06 isBEKaml TimToady: should just fail or throw back an error?
16:06 TimToady depends on whether you're steering a rocket or estimating the national debt
16:07 TimToady but if you throw, you prevent the caller from just saying $result // 0
16:08 TimToady a failure gives that option, and will still throw if you later misuse the value
16:09 TimToady and the message should still indicate where the original failure occurred
16:09 TimToady "lazy throw" as it were
16:09 isBEKaml do we currently have a way of locating pos in error stack traces?
16:09 TimToady don't understand "locating pos"
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16:10 isBEKaml line numbers, details from code as to where exactly it failed than the error message programmed in.
16:10 isBEKaml IOW, more than $!
16:11 TimToady supposed to, but I think the API is part of what moritz++ is cleaning up
16:12 TimToady though in my mind the "position" of an error is more like an offset by characters, not a line number, or even a range of characters
16:12 isBEKaml I see that "fail and throw if more failure" is better than "just throw". It allows for propagation of error messages along the call trace.
16:12 TimToady well, that can be done by rethrowing too, but it's more cumbersome
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16:13 isBEKaml I believe, by position, the offset/line number is provided by the host platform/VM that perl6 runs on. In the case of rakudo, parrot.
16:14 moritz isBEKaml: the idea is that you can access $!.backtrace.line and .file
16:15 isBEKaml moritz++  I dimly recall he was working on Exception API
16:15 isBEKaml moritz: ah, is that already in?
16:15 moritz isBEKaml: in the spec, yes
16:15 isBEKaml :-)
16:17 * TimToady would like to point out once again that lines numbers should be derived from file positions
16:18 TimToady because how you count lines will depend on your Unicode culture
16:18 moritz TimToady: it may be derived from file positions
16:18 moritz TimToady: but so far most tools support line numbers better than character or byte offsets into files
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16:19 TimToady sure, I just don't want to lose information any sooner than we need to
16:19 isBEKaml TimToady: different editors have funky support for line numbers -- each sees them differently depending on the encoding.
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16:20 TimToady sure, S02:60 already mentions this
16:22 TimToady but for some reason, it's really hard to root out the old-fashioned thinking in this particular area
16:24 isBEKaml yeah, sorry. I never had to deal with unicode until now. Now that I'm seeing all these, I now feel like using my native language more. :)
16:25 TimToady Unicode is trying to do something impossible, and largely succeeding, except where it's largely failing :)
16:25 TimToady sounds like Perl 6 :)
16:26 isBEKaml one of the things unicode is failing at is, uniformly treating indic languages. :) (that's where we are at)
16:27 dalek nqp: 0cac59c | jonathan++ | src/ (3 files):
16:27 dalek nqp: Give a struct a more generic name so we can re-use it in another case.
16:27 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0cac59c3ad
16:27 dalek nqp: 1f9da88 | jonathan++ | src/6model/sixmodelobject.h:
16:27 dalek nqp: Add container spec slot of the s-table. Also a little movement to get vaguely related s-table elements in chunks to try and get better cache line hits.
16:27 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1f9da88fc5
16:27 dalek nqp: 5f29114 | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
16:27 dalek nqp: Add is_container and nqp_decontainerize ops.
16:27 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5f291147df
16:27 moritz http://drdobbs.com/tools/229700183 # I'm glad that we decided right from the start that Using Perl 6 shouldn't fall into either of those traps
16:27 dalek nqp: 1d75ccd | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
16:27 dalek nqp: set_container_spec op.
16:27 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1d75ccd71a
16:27 dalek nqp: 88f386d | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
16:27 dalek nqp: Oops, fix thinko.
16:27 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/88f386db60
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16:31 isBEKaml This explains issues better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Indic_scripts
16:31 jnthn time for a little break &
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16:33 dalek rakudo/nom: 4a7ca65 | jnthn++ | src/binder/sixmodelobject.h:
16:33 dalek rakudo/nom: Chase 6model API changes/extensions.
16:33 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4a7ca651c5
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16:35 isBEKaml moritz: ah, thanks for the link. I have the Odersky and K&R books with me. My google-fu must have failed in searching for Jolt award book reviews. :)
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16:42 masak Guten Abend, Zebras.
16:43 isBEKaml masak: \o
16:43 isBEKaml masak: a new language a day? :)
16:45 masak heh :)
16:45 masak sounds like a nice general principle ;)
16:45 isBEKaml yeah, but hey, we can all learn! :)
16:46 colomon o/
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16:55 pmichaud good mor...afternoon, #perl6
16:55 masak good pm, pm.
16:56 masak today I learned that two of the original seven Bridges of Königsberg have been removed, actually making it possible to make a Eulerian path across the remaining bridges. if I'm ever in Kaliningrad, I must remember to do that. :)
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16:58 isBEKaml masak: you actually used two nouns that are old and new forms of the same thing. :)
16:58 isBEKaml masak: I was thinking, "what is Kalinin..." and had to look it up. :)
16:59 masak isBEKaml: oh, sorry. I thought that was common knowledge... :P
16:59 masak maybe it's just me and my fascination with exclaves in general.
17:00 pmichaud Maybe it's just you in general.  :-)
17:00 masak :P
17:00 isBEKaml that's what masak++ said. ;)
17:02 isBEKaml why is it so difficult to find a way to input characters in my native language?
17:02 masak what's your native language?
17:02 isBEKaml even unicode.org lists it as one of the major issues apart from other indic languages. :(
17:02 isBEKaml tamil
17:03 isBEKaml I could just use online tools for it. e.g., quillpad.in
17:03 masak isBEKaml: I'm using Emacs for all my input method needs. Emacs LEIM lists tamil-inscript and tamil-itrans.
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17:03 isBEKaml masak: but I wanted a way of using them like SCIM.
17:04 isBEKaml masak: I have never used emacs (huge packages scare me)
17:05 masak isBEKaml: the image on the Wikipedia article for SCIM lists Tamil.
17:05 masak Emacs isn't that big by current standards.
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17:08 isBEKaml masak: I can see only chinese and japanese here. Maybe, what I have here is a default install. Will have to check more (Oddly enough, I did use SCIM before ~~ long enough for me to not even remember it)
17:10 masak I've never used SCIM, so I can't help, I'm afraid.
17:10 masak Google Translate doesn't do Tamil, it seems.
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17:12 isBEKaml http://quillpad.in/tamil
17:13 isBEKaml this is what I use, as an inplace editor.
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17:14 masak wow, Tamil is so pretty. :>
17:14 isBEKaml but darn difficult to encode/type in. :( (3 bytes for each character, actually)
17:16 isBEKaml I'm learning to use it electronically(for eg., I could contribute to more WP articles) regardless of the difficulty. :)
17:20 isBEKaml masak: learned that two of the original seven Bridges of Königsberg have been removed, actually making  it possible to make a Eulerian path across
17:21 isBEKaml geez...
17:21 masak what? :)
17:21 isBEKaml masak: http://i.imgur.com/xddqS.png
17:21 isBEKaml masak: that says "Thank you, masak!"
17:21 isBEKaml :)
17:21 masak thanks for what? :)
17:22 isBEKaml simply
17:23 isBEKaml *shrugs*
17:23 masak heh
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17:24 isBEKaml masak: I see bemusement. ;)
17:25 * isBEKaml finds SCIM documentation wanting and lacking details
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18:30 masak rakudo: sub is-balanced($_ is copy) { s/'[]'// while /'[]'/; !.chars }; for "[[][]]", "[[]]]", "", "][" { say .&is-balanced }
18:30 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::Fal​se␤Bool::True␤Bool::False␤»
18:30 masak \o/
18:35 cotto_work Even with --gen-parrot --gen-nqp, I can't get the nom branch of Rakudo to build.
18:35 colomon cotto_work: what error do you get?
18:36 cotto_work colomon: http://nopaste.snit.ch/49221
18:38 colomon cotto_work: ah.  Not one I've run into, alas.
18:43 masak me either.
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18:43 jnthn looking
18:44 jnthn cotto_work: Do you have a leftover Perl6 directory in your build tree? Try nuking that...
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18:48 cotto_work jnthn: that seems to be working
18:48 jnthn :)
18:48 cotto_work thanks
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18:55 * moritz now gets a segfault building nom
18:55 * moritz cleans out and tries again
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18:57 Lorn is now known as Lorn_
18:57 jnthn moritz: Need new nqp also
18:57 Lorn_ is now known as Lorn
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19:05 moritz jnthn: still segfaults (with --gen-parrot --gen-nqp)
19:06 moritz jnthn: https://gist.github.com/1003037
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19:08 szabgab apparently the rakudo installation is missing a file called  libgcc_s_sjlj-1.dll
19:08 szabgab this can be found in c:\strawberry  but not in the rakudo build directory
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19:11 jnthn moritz: ouch. That's...a weird one. :(
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19:28 moritz not the usual gc-burns-our-objects segfault
19:28 szabgab moritz: I am uploading a new .exe file
19:29 szabgab could you please add it to the download directory (and  remove the other file)
19:29 moritz szabgab: please give it a new name (not just replace the old one9
19:29 szabgab sure
19:29 szabgab it will have a different name
19:29 moritz szabgab: don't you have commit access already?
19:29 frettled left #perl6
19:29 szabgab let me see
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19:32 szabgab I don't think I have commit bit
19:33 szabgab on guthub I can only see http and read-only access
19:33 moritz ok, I'll upload it for you
19:34 Sarten-X left #perl6
19:34 szabgab this is the file http://perlide.org/download​/rakudo-star-2011.04.v2.exe
19:35 szabgab and if I can get commit bit then later I'll do it myself and can also add the config file and the howto file
19:36 szabgab anyway, now sleep &
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19:39 jnthn moritz: No, and I can't reproduce it here :(
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19:39 jnthn moritz: You certainly got a clean build of latest nqp and nom?
19:39 jnthn And no Perl6 directory left over?
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19:41 moritz no Perl6 dir left over
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19:43 * moritz does a really real clean
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19:43 * jnthn crosses his fingers
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19:54 sorear good * #perl6
19:54 sorear sleep is *not* being good to me today...
19:55 moritz still segfaulting :(
19:55 jnthn moritz: :(
19:55 jnthn moritz: trying on another box.
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19:55 moritz I git-clean'ed rakudo, nqp and parrot and ran perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp && make
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20:19 dalek niecza: f9e93e4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | / (3 files):
20:19 dalek niecza: Add bif_abs, bif_complex_re, and bif_complex_im, typing them to prefix:<abs>, Complex.re, and Complex.im respectively. Error conditions for big_complex_re and bif_complex_im applied to non-complex objects are wrong, but I'm not sure if that can ever come into play in practice.
20:19 dalek niecza:
20:19 dalek niecza: Also added abs_test.pl with quick tests of these methods.
20:19 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f9e93e48f7
20:19 dalek niecza: 3f05979 | sorear++ | lib/Builtins.cs:
20:19 dalek niecza: Simplify complex_re and complex_im, add [fat]?rat_[nu|de] for good measure.
20:19 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3f059797a3
20:19 dalek niecza: 99f6bc3 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
20:19 dalek niecza: Move abs tests into test2.pl where they belong.
20:19 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/99f6bc3903
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20:26 sorear masak: o/
20:27 masak sorear: \o
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20:32 dalek niecza: e2a35a1 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
20:32 dalek niecza: FatRat.new, FatRat abs tests, bind numerator/denominator to Perl
20:32 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e2a35a1403
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21:02 sorear rakudo: (sub () { ... }).defined.say
21:02 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
21:02 sorear rakudobug? S32/Callable:50
21:03 sorear moritz: what's the syntax for linking to S32xxx?
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21:16 masak lol! I blogged! http://strangelyconsistent.org/b​log/june-1-2011-input-and-output
21:17 jnthn Great! I can learn to program! \o/
21:17 jnthn ;)
21:18 masak sorear: huh, wow. I don't think I've read that part of S32 before. :)
21:18 jnthn masak++ # explains stuff simply
21:18 masak I had assumed up until now that Routines were always defined.
21:18 jnthn Me too
21:19 jnthn I thought .yada was the way you asked if something was ...'d.
21:19 masak ooh :)
21:19 tadzik hello zebras
21:19 jnthn I'd probably prefer it to be that way.
21:19 jnthn o/ tadzik
21:19 masak tadzik: hello little panda :)
21:19 tadzik what a ridiculous day
21:20 masak jnthn: yeah, me too.
21:20 masak tadzik: ISP trouble?
21:20 jnthn tadzik: Another beer ticket?
21:20 tadzik yes, no
21:21 tadzik net was down for a day or something, and I've been learning Information Theory the whole day
21:21 masak how appropriate.
21:21 jnthn hun, your ISP didn't work, and you didn't use the day to drink beer? :)
21:21 jnthn *huh
21:22 masak thought "hun" does express the right kind of concern here :P
21:22 jnthn :P
21:22 tadzik it may be the most interesting subject I had so far, yet it's so badly lectured I didn't pay attention to it at all. It's about encoding data, related to telecommunication and teletransmission I think. Shannon, Hamming, Huffman, those sort of guys
21:22 jnthn "the keys are right next to each other!"
21:22 masak jnthn: you can hun, but you can't hide :)
21:23 tadzik it's sad that the system spoiled the subject with ridiculous labolatories and LTA classes. I really enjoyed learning it today
21:23 jnthn :P
21:24 tadzik aw, whatever :)
21:24 tadzik how is nom doing?
21:24 jnthn tadzik: Mostly design progress today
21:25 * tadzik pulls
21:26 tadzik also, ISP was down so badly that when I called them, the connection didn't make it due to overload on the line :)
21:28 bluescreen10 left #perl6
21:28 jnthn tadzik: Clear up Perl6 directory and get latest nqp build also :)
21:28 jnthn moritz is seeing a SEGV at the end of the build :(
21:28 masak ooh: Shannon's maxim: "The enemy knows the system" -- I *like* that :)
21:28 jnthn Didn't reproduce here yet.
21:29 * masak decides to learn some more about Rakudo :)
21:30 sorear hello masak
21:31 * sorear checks the blogs
21:31 tadzik Cannot fetch object from non-existant serialization context 1306782074.42145
21:31 tadzik make realclean left it or something?
21:31 tadzik oh, some leftover pbcs
21:31 jnthn tadzik: that'll do it
21:31 jnthn tadzik: I'll awesomize that error when I get around to it.
21:32 sorear masak: IME edublogs *really* *really* *really* need a way for users to ask questions
21:32 tadzik no worries
21:32 jnthn it should be like "Yo dawg, you gave me an out of date copy of Foo.pm!"
21:32 sorear masak: so I suggest at least adding a disqus link oslt
21:33 masak disqus?
21:33 sorear it's a web service that hosts comments for static-HTML blogs
21:33 masak ooh
21:35 tadzik ./perl6 -e 'say "Hello world!"'  0,25s user 0,03s system 99% cpu 0,281 total
21:35 tadzik I know it's notmuch, but it looks nice :)
21:35 Tene sorear: what sort of questions?
21:35 tadzik compared to like 1.5 on master
21:36 sorear masak: example: http://whiteknight.github.com/2011/​02/08/gc_for_newbies_marksweep.html
21:36 jnthn tadzik: Is that nom?
21:36 sorear I haven't actually done any research beyond reading whiteknight's blog; it might be a pay service, in which case nevermind
21:37 jnthn tadzik: As in, you got a working build of it?
21:37 sorear Tene: things masak thinks are obvious and it never occurred to em to write, but the readership disagrees
21:37 sorear Tene: was it you who pointed me to EY's qm edublogging?  that's what I'm thinking of
21:37 tadzik jnthn: yes, yes
21:38 jnthn tadzik: OK...I wonder what makes mortiz's environment special...
21:38 tadzik segfault, yep?
21:38 jnthn yeah.
21:38 Tene sorear: I don't understand "edublogging" actually
21:38 tadzik strange
21:38 Tene I thoguht it was a typo for "debuglog" at first
21:38 masak sorear: I think you're right, and I'll think of something to do about it. don't know what just yet.
21:38 sorear Tene: portmanteau, education, blogging
21:39 sorear Tene: http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/a-month​-of-blogging-about-programming-fundamentals
21:41 jnthn tadzik: 32 or 64?
21:41 jnthn oh, I think I reproduced.
21:41 masak TMI
21:42 jnthn http://xkcd.com/583/ :P
21:42 tadzik jnthn: 64
21:42 masak 'night, #perl6
21:42 jnthn tadzik: ah, ok
21:42 jnthn o/ masak
21:42 masak left #perl6
21:43 jnthn tadzik: I've got it on 32 so...hmm.
21:43 jnthn But only on one of my machines.
21:44 tadzik planet python impressed with Perl 6: http://twitter.com/#!/planetpy​thon/status/75873718483689473 :)
21:44 tadzik jnthn: I'm pretty far from my 32 machine
21:44 tadzik unfortunately. It has a kickass monitor :)
21:45 jnthn tadzik: no wories
21:45 jnthn oh, hang on...the failure I have isn't a segfault
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22:38 dalek niecza: 212ba4d | sorear++ | / (8 files):
22:38 dalek niecza: Sub is now a hierarchy of speccish classes
22:38 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/212ba4de29
22:41 colomon niecza: say (1 / (2 ** 200)).WHAT
22:41 p6eval niecza v6-25-ge2a35a1: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
22:41 colomon niecza: say (1 / (2 ** 6)).WHAT
22:41 p6eval niecza v6-25-ge2a35a1: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
22:41 colomon niecza++
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22:51 sorear hello colomon.
22:51 colomon o/
22:51 * sorear wonders whether to reinstate $?ORIG
22:52 sorear it fell off - I think during the metamodle work around v2 - it wouldn't be hard to readd - but it would significantly hurt executable sizes
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22:53 sorear since it requires adding a copy of 200kb of source code, STD.dll would go from 1.5M to 1.7M
22:53 colomon When I drove to the doctor's office this afternoon, I was pondering how to merge your system for handling numbers with the Numeric and Real roles.
22:54 colomon would the additional size slow things down?
22:54 sorear downloads, probably
22:54 sorear well, yes, it would
22:54 sorear but that's fixable
22:55 sorear for silly mutability control reasons the CLR forces me to memcpy() the entire serialization blob into a fresh buffer before using it, which breaks demand paging
22:56 sorear but I could have a private blob for this
22:56 jfried left #perl6
22:56 sorear -
22:57 sorear so, Numeric and Real?
22:57 colomon the roles, yeah.
22:57 sorear I got as far as I did on numbers only by punting "I can think about extensibility later"
22:57 sorear I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this
22:59 colomon I think it comes down to figuring out how to allow the native types to instantiate the roles in a graceful fashion.
22:59 sorear Native types?
22:59 colomon I'm presuming that there are nice performance benefits to figuring out what math type we have in the C# code instead of in p6?
22:59 sorear yes
23:00 colomon native types, I mean like what you're doing with BigInteger there.
23:00 sorear what I've already thought is that (for concreteness) Builtins.bif_plus is tantamount to a multi dispatcher
23:01 sorear so it would make some sense to say
23:01 sorear proto infix:<+>($a,$b) is specialized('bif_plus') { }
23:01 sorear mutli infix:<+>(Int $a, Int $b) { $a + $b }
23:01 sorear ...
23:02 sorear now, if the user defines any new <+> multi, bif_plus is not used directly; instead the multi dispatcher picks the type case
23:02 sorear this relies on the aritmetic operations being lexical though
23:03 colomon interesting
23:03 sorear it's only a half-baked idea
23:04 colomon I was imagining something like a Native role which the bif_plus types did, and then...
23:04 sorear (also, there is a LOT of room for optimization in the MMD system.  Starting with caching the sorted dispatch list.)
23:04 colomon multi infix:<+>(Native $a, Native $b) { call bif_plus }
23:04 colomon multi infix:<+>(Numeric $a, Numeric $b) { slower generic method }
23:05 colomon but that's a half-baked idea too.  :)
23:05 sorear colomon: that seems even better, but I'm not sure how it would interact with the spec.  It seems like the nature of multi dispatch and tie-checking makes candidate lists part of the API.
23:05 sorear colomon: what would you put in the Numeric,Numeric case?
23:06 colomon actually, probably nothing in Numeric, Numeric, now that I think about it.
23:07 colomon Real, Real would be the classic example; in Rakudo, it's { $a.Bridge + $b.Bridge }
23:07 colomon which is a workable solution for types we don't know about.
23:08 sorear .Bridge coerces to the best "core" numeric type?
23:08 colomon "It seems like the nature of multi dispatch and tie-checking makes candidate lists part of the API."  I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that, but it sounds suspiciously like something that might be worth getting the spec to relax if it gives  big win in performance?
23:09 colomon .Bridge coerces to the "best" "core" type, yes.  Num in Rakudo.
23:09 colomon I thought it might make sense to make it FatRat if that was available, but obviously that will be slower.
23:10 colomon it's an interesting question whether "best" should be "most accurate" or "fastest".
23:10 colomon and it might make sense to leave that to the compiler developer, too.
23:11 colomon I've got to run for a bit, time to put the little guy to bed.  (His mom is quizzing him on Scottish folk song lyrics at the moment.)
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: 5a8d894 | jnthn++ | / (3 files):
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Stub in ContainerDescriptor and Scalar.
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5a8d894612
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: ca2d5a2 | jnthn++ | / (3 files):
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Start to sketch out some container primitives/fast-path for Scalar.
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ca2d5a2de7
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: af85c29 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Communicate the built-in Scalar type to things that need to know it.
23:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/af85c295fd
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23:30 sorear pugs: say $?POSITION
23:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«/tmp/ptP2YDPn24 line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
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23:53 jnthn sleep &
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