Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-06-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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03:30 sorear good * #perl6
03:30 sorear oh, nothing happened since I left
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03:55 Util Hai, sorear
03:55 sorear hello tylercurtis.  belated welcome back to the community
03:56 sorear hello Util.
03:57 tylercurtis sorear: hello and thank you, though I don't think it should be considered belated given that I haven't really started working on Perl 6 again yet.
03:57 sorear rakudo: say (1 => 2).Str; say (1 => 2).Stringy
03:57 p6eval rakudo 048573: OUTPUT«1 2␤Method 'Stringy' not found for invocant of class 'Pair'␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Xd7ciadjCY␤»
03:59 Util New RC solution (to a draft task): http://rosettacode.org/wiki/S​traddling_checkerboard#Perl_6
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04:40 dalek niecza: c757e63 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
04:40 dalek niecza: .Stringy as a mostly-synonym for .Str
04:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c757e63db3
04:40 dalek niecza: 39dde58 | sorear++ | lib/ (5 files):
04:40 dalek niecza: Reimplement Bool as an enum
04:40 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/39dde58b6c
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06:23 dalek rakudo/nom: eeeb5cf | moritz++ | src/CORE.setting/Num.pm:
06:23 dalek rakudo/nom: more Num methods
06:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/eeeb5cf178
06:26 moritz good morning
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06:44 dalek star: 81c1fdc | szabgab++ | win32/rakudo. (2 files):
06:44 dalek star: add files needed to build the Windows Installer of Rakudo Star
06:44 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/81c1fdcfed
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06:50 sorear good morning moritz
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07:00 ingy seen ash
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07:51 dalek rakudo: 484a253 | mberends++ | tools/test_summary.pl:
07:51 dalek rakudo: [tools/test_summary.pl] improve handling of 'git log' output from certain git versions
07:51 dalek rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/484a25371f
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08:12 muixirt good morning
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08:13 tadzik good morning
08:14 mberends goede morgen
08:14 muixirt hi tadzik , I wonder where rakudo development is heading right now
08:15 moritz muixirt: http://6guts.wordpress.com/2011/06/​06/the-rakudo-nom-hacking-marathon/ tries to answer that
08:16 muixirt yes the nom branch :-)
08:16 muixirt i dont understand a thing
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08:16 moritz it'll be much faster and better, but it's a lot of work
08:17 moritz more understandable? :-)
08:18 mberends muixirt: the preceding postings on the 6guts blog are the most comprehensive description so far of the whole 6model design
08:20 muixirt i'm more interested in getting away from parrot, i thought 6model was a step in the direction of other VMs (at least to open up that possibility)
08:20 mberends muixirt: other runtimes is part of the 6model roadmap...
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08:23 dalek rakudo/nom: 9b86b65 | moritz++ | src/CORE.setting/Num.pm:
08:23 dalek rakudo/nom: more Num methods that translate directly to PIR
08:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9b86b65f81
08:23 muixirt moritz: faster? why?
08:24 tadzik it's already hell faster, in the things it does :)
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08:24 moritz muixirt: because it uses its own primitives that are tailored for Perl 6 use
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08:24 moritz muixirt: wheras parrot provides some generic primitives, that need to be wrapped to provide the semantics we want
08:25 muixirt and that is independent of the target platform?
08:25 moritz those primitives can easily(-ish) be implemented on other platforms
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08:30 muixirt whew: there is nqp, nqp-rx, parrot-nqp
08:31 muixirt https://github.com/perl6/nqp is the current one, right?
08:31 moritz right
08:36 muixirt «whereas we expect NQP to eventually run on other virtual machine backends» Anyone with a rough estimate when this happens?
08:39 mberends muixirt: the CLR (.Net) is likely to land first, because jnthn++ is developing most of that. It will be at least a couple of months.  The JVM backend is stalled, a blocker was removed recently but since then no time has been invested in it (tuit shortage).
08:45 mberends most of the work is not tricky, it's mainly laborious slogging through many slightly different cases, lots of thorough cross checking of code sanity, and patient testing. Volunteers are welcome!
08:47 moritz phenny: tell jnthn about https://gist.github.com/1011914 - my attempt to implement Int.succ, maybe multi dispatch isn't quite that reliable?
08:47 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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09:09 dalek rakudo/nom: 8772963 | moritz++ | src/binder/multidispatch.c:
09:10 dalek rakudo/nom: add newline to error message
09:10 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8772963da7
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09:22 yath hm, reading the perl 6 book: 'if $s ~~ m/ « (\w+) \W+ $0 » /' -- what is the meaning of the «»s there?
09:26 moritz word boundaries
09:27 moritz are they not explained there?
09:27 yath ah, some paragraphs below. thanks
09:28 yath (i'm looking at 2011.01.a4.pdf ftm, maybe that has changed :)
09:28 moritz well, that's the mode of the book: start with a working example, and then build up the knowledge to understand it
09:28 yath yeah, wasn't meant as an offense :)
09:29 * moritz hopes he didn't sound offended
09:31 yath but still one silly question...
09:31 yath if $/ is an array, why doesn't it have a @ sigil?
09:32 moritz it's not just an array
09:32 moritz it's a scalar, and array and a hash
09:32 yath ah
09:33 yath okay :)
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10:38 JimmyZ good ealry evening, #perl6
10:38 JimmyZ *early
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10:58 jnthn moritz: https://gist.github.com/1011914 contains the error; where is the succ implementation?
10:58 phenny jnthn: 08:47Z <moritz> tell jnthn about https://gist.github.com/1011914 - my attempt to implement Int.succ, maybe multi dispatch isn't quite that reliable?
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11:21 moritz jnthn: scroll down
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11:24 jnthn moritz: ooh, sorry :)
11:24 jnthn moritz: I thought succ was parameterless?
11:24 jnthn oh
11:24 jnthn ENOTENOUGHCOLON :)
11:24 jnthn + multi method succ(Int:D) { self + 1 }
11:24 jnthn + multi method succ(Int:U) { 1 }
11:24 jnthn Those aren't declaring the invocant type, they're declaring parameters :)
11:24 moritz oh
11:24 moritz thanks
11:24 jnthn need succ(Int:D:)
11:25 jnthn phew, my multi-dispatcher isn't so busted :)
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11:25 moritz do you think the approach is sane?
11:26 moritz for getting my Int $x; $x++ working, that is
11:26 moritz perl6: my Str $x; $x++; say $x
11:26 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:26 p6eval ..niecza v6-79-g39dde58: OUTPUT«WTF␤»
11:26 p6eval ..rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤    Container type: Str␤               Got: Int␤  in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤  in main program body at line 7674:CORE.setting␤»
11:26 colomon :D and :U work in nom?
11:26 jnthn colomon: yes
11:26 moritz sorear++
11:26 jnthn moritz: It seems sane.
11:26 moritz perl6: my Int $x; $x++; say $x
11:27 jnthn lol...niecza win :)
11:27 p6eval pugs, rakudo 484a25, niecza v6-79-g39dde58: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:27 colomon ha!
11:27 jnthn moritz: I guess it'll get things right for the auto-viv.
11:27 PhatEddy rakudo: class A {has @.a; has @.b := @.a}
11:28 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('a')␤  in main program body at line 2:/tmp/ccU71I3yRk␤»
11:28 PhatEddy Was trying to rename a deprecated attribute when hit this.
11:28 jnthn PhatEddy: Don't think you can use binding there.
11:29 jnthn PhatEddy: nom probably already gives a better error.
11:30 dalek rakudo/nom: fa5da99 | moritz++ | src/CORE.setting/Int.pm:
11:30 dalek rakudo/nom: implement Int.succ, jnthn++
11:30 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fa5da9962c
11:30 moritz perl6: say ''.succ
11:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Str: "&succ"␤    at /tmp/GmvYQs2_pY line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
11:30 p6eval ..niecza v6-79-g39dde58: OUTPUT«WTF␤»
11:30 p6eval ..rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«␤»
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11:35 dalek rakudo/nom: 25cd9f7 | moritz++ | src/CORE.setting/Num.pm:
11:35 dalek rakudo/nom: implement Num.succ
11:35 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/25cd9f7f4b
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11:38 jnthn https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/25cd9f7f4b
11:38 jnthn oops
11:39 PhatEddy Not allowing binding there makes some sense to me and can use accessor method as workaround.  Thx.
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11:39 jnthn PhatEddy: You can use =
11:40 jnthn PhatEddy: But it's not really assignment
11:40 jnthn The thing on the right gets turned into an anonymous method.
11:40 jnthn That gets called for you at build time
11:40 moritz just change it everywhere in the source. We're still in early-ish development and are allowed to break stuff :-)
11:43 PhatEddy rakudo: class A {has @.a is rw = (12, 13); has @.b = @.a }; my $a = A.new; $a.b.push(20); say $a.a
11:43 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«1213␤»
11:43 PhatEddy jnthn: is that what you meant ?
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11:56 jnthn PhatEddy: Yeah, but I see now that you really want to bind them.
11:57 * jnthn gets back to $dayjob...will be around again later :)
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12:42 smash hello everyone
12:43 moritz \o smash
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13:37 dalek rakudo/nom: 6c01923 | moritz++ | src/CORE.setting/Cool.pm:
13:37 dalek rakudo/nom: implement .index and .rindex methods
13:37 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:37 dalek rakudo/nom: The default values seem to not work yet, but I trust that jnthn++ will fix that in time
13:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6c01923012
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14:00 colomon jnthn: nom build still fails for me, btw
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14:08 mberends colomon: it also failed for me, but if you 'cd nqp' and get that as far as 'make install' to work, you can cd back put to nom and try building that with --parrot-config=nqp/install/bin/parrot_config
14:10 colomon mberends: okay, I'm trying to build nqp now...
14:10 mberends hope it works, it did for me (on Debian)
14:13 moritz --gen-nqp works fine for me on debian without the need to do anything else
14:13 moritz mberends: what's your failure mode?
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14:28 colomon nqp build of parrot fails for me with the PCRE problem, despite using --gen-parrot-option=--without-pcre to configure nqp.
14:30 moritz is anybody in parrot lang working on the pcre problem?
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14:32 moritz s/lang/land/
14:36 mberends moritz: it was about a week ago, I'll make a fresh clone and see how it behaves. Maybe later, though, because
14:36 * mberends --> amsterdam.pm.org
14:37 moritz colomon: nqp's Configure.pl doesn't understand --gen-parrot-option
14:38 colomon moritz: Is there an alternative?
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14:39 moritz colomon: I think you need to call rakudo's configure as  perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-option=--without-pcre --gen-nqp
14:39 moritz colomon: because currently rakudo builds parrot, and then tells nqp to use that parrot
14:39 colomon moritz: the whole point here is that when I do that, nqp build fails (in a different way)
14:40 moritz colomon: what's the failure mode?
14:41 colomon moritz: https://gist.github.com/1010296
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14:48 jdv79 jnthn: thanks for the blog update!
14:48 moritz colomon: big wtf. What's the output of   git describe --tags   in your copy of nom?
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14:48 moritz in my copy, build/gen_nqp.pl has these lines:
14:48 moritz print "\nConfiguring NQP ...\n";
14:48 moritz my @config_command = ($^X, 'Configure.pl', "--with-parrot=../parrot_install/bin/parrot");
14:49 moritz print "@config_command\n";
14:49 moritz I don't see how that could possibly lead to running Configure.pl with --parrot-config=...
14:50 moritz my only explanation is a stale checkout
14:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 4509709 | moritz++ | build/gen_nqp.pl:
14:50 dalek rakudo/nom: [build] fix typo in gen_nqp.pl
14:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4509709fff
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15:00 dalek rakudo/nom: 151d38f | moritz++ | build/gen_nqp.pl:
15:00 dalek rakudo/nom: [build] simplify gen_nqp.pl
15:00 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/151d38f470
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15:25 colomon moritz: Yesterday I got that error repeatedly, with fresh checkouts each time.
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15:48 moritz colomon: so what's the output of git describe ?
15:48 moritz colomon: and could you please pull and try again?
15:50 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:54 pmichaud seems like Int.succ(Int:U:)  should be inherited from Any.
15:56 pmichaud rakudo: say "65".chr
15:56 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«A␤»
15:58 pmichaud rakudo: say Any.succ;
15:58 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«Method 'succ' not found for invocant of class ''␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xcBmPlxZ69␤»
15:58 pmichaud hmmmmm
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16:02 colomon moritz: what build would you like me to try?  nom with --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-option=--without-pcre --gen-nqp?
16:02 pmichaud colomon:  can't get nom to build?
16:03 colomon pmichaud: nope
16:03 pmichaud what's the failure symptoms?
16:03 colomon hasn't built for me since yesterday
16:04 pmichaud I've written a new build system for nom... but I'm not happy with it yet so I'm thinking of starting over on it
16:05 colomon pmichaud: it seems like what I'm seeing may be a conflict between the --without-pcre option and nqp-nom, but nqp's build dies with a weird error message: https://gist.github.com/1010296
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16:06 pmichaud it's no longer --parrot-config
16:06 pmichaud it's now  --with-parrot
16:06 pmichaud (right there in the error message :)
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16:07 pmichaud Rakudo's Configure.pl is calling NQP's Configure.pl with the wrong option.
16:07 colomon ah
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16:28 TimToady seems to me that, for the foreseeable future, the default should be to build our own parrot, esp if there isn't a recent one elsewhere on the system
16:28 phenny TimToady: 06 Jun 16:56Z <sorear> tell TimToady S12-enum/basic.t:89 is dubious.  Shouldn't that be a call to the enum (as a coercer?)
16:28 pmichaud that's essentially what we do
16:28 pmichaud the challenge is in keeping the revisions straight
16:28 * TimToady is just tired of typing --gen-parrot
16:29 pmichaud I can make --gen-parrot the default if no --with-parrot is supplied.
16:29 pmichaud (and no parrot is found)
16:29 TimToady no recent parrot, maybe
16:29 pmichaud what exactly do we mean by "no recent parrot"?
16:29 pmichaud in some sense, though, I'm not a fan of automatically downloading something without having an explicit request
16:30 TimToady that's the way the future is going, though
16:30 pmichaud i.e., someone might not be happy if "perl Configure.pl"  started downloading a parrot repo that he/she didn't want.
16:30 pmichaud there's always the config.status file
16:30 pmichaud also, I can have Configure.pl assume "--gen-parrot"  if there's already a parrot repo locally
16:30 TimToady "Now downloading...interrupt if that's not what you want"
16:30 pmichaud so then you just need --gen-parrot on the first invocation
16:31 pmichaud in the new build system, it looks like one will be able to do just --gen-parrot, since that implies --gen-nqp
16:32 ggoebel just wanted to delurk long enough to express admiration for everyone's work and progress in rakudo, niecza, STD, etc.
16:32 TimToady I also keep wondering if more of this should be driven from the make and less from the configure
16:32 pmichaud ggoebel: thanks!
16:32 flussence_ +1
16:32 pmichaud the revision checks are hard to drive from the make
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16:32 pmichaud I did think about that this morning, though.
16:33 pmichaud finding the correct executables is also hard from within make... it really wants a step above that.
16:33 pmichaud the new Configure.pl is greatly simplified over what nom has now, yes.
16:33 pmichaud (lots of refactoring)
16:34 TimToady yes, I've noticed the need to prefind executables once or twice in the past :)
16:34 pmichaud :-)
16:34 slavik left #perl6
16:36 TimToady maybe someday the whole thing can be a Perl 6 program compiled down to machine code so you just download a single executable to bootstrap installation
16:36 pmichaud that will be nice :)
16:37 pmichaud but when that day comes, we almost certainly won't be using Parrot.  :)
16:37 * sjn has started scheming in evil ways again
16:38 TimToady using Scheme to bootstrap is also problematic  :P
16:38 sjn anyone here other than masak and jnthn that plan on going to NPW in Malmö?
16:38 pmichaud not I, alas.
16:38 sjn TimToady: no worries, my schemems are much more problematic than that. :)
16:38 sjn schemes*
16:39 TimToady schemems ought to mean something
16:39 * pmichaud checks airfares
16:39 * sjn intends to make trouble with the #perl6book
16:40 sjn if all goes well (no guarantees, I have no clue in what I'm doing anyway), expect lots of stupid questions about syntax and how to teach Perl 6 :)
16:40 pmichaud wow, only $844 roundtrip!
16:41 sjn pmichaud: is that cheap? o_O
16:42 xinming left #perl6
16:42 pmichaud it's not the cheapest fair I've seen, but it's not expensive considering the departure date is less than two weeks away
16:42 pmichaud *fare
16:43 pmichaud two weeks ago I had to book a fare for my father to travel from Corpus Christi to Nebraska -- it was $840 round trip.
16:43 xinming joined #perl6
16:44 pmichaud (that's definitely expensive for the distance being flown.)
16:44 daxim left #perl6
16:44 sjn mm
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17:13 jnthn evening, #perl6
17:14 sjn o/
17:14 Moukeddar \o
17:16 jnthn sjn! :)
17:16 jnthn sjn: NPW is...nearish :)
17:16 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:16 sjn jnthn: I KNOW!
17:17 * jnthn is starting to get scared :)
17:17 * jnthn never organized a workshop before ;)]
17:17 jnthn Thankfully I have masak++ to help \o/
17:17 jnthn And now we pretty much have a schedule. :)
17:18 sjn important bits: coffee in the morning, some way to get lunch, time to chat and one or two social events. :)
17:19 jnthn :)
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17:52 jnthn #phasers in 58?
17:52 jnthn *68
17:52 colomon jnthn++
18:00 * jnthn gets some dinner before #phasers. bbiab.
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18:07 sorear good * #perl6
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18:08 masak hi, #perl6!
18:08 phenny masak: 06 Jun 22:15Z <sorear> tell masak Your blog is spamming planet perl6 with duplicated posts
18:10 tomzie joined #perl6
18:11 masak sorear: I had a VM crash and had to resuscitate my last few posts. I didn't expect RSS fallout from it, but I'm not surprised in retrospect. :/ will try to think about it next time.
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18:15 masak grrr, I hate it when people's feeds go crazy. and now I'm having my own feed do the same thing. sorry about that, everyone. :(
18:15 pernatiy joined #perl6
18:16 masak jnthn++ # http://6guts.wordpress.com/2011/06/​06/the-rakudo-nom-hacking-marathon/
18:17 Moukeddar joined #perl6
18:19 masak Moukeddar: hi! did you ever get Rakudo up and running?
18:20 mberends joined #perl6
18:20 Moukeddar masak, yes , i downloaded it in the cafe , but i'll install it tonight in my home machine
18:20 Moukeddar RAPL :)
18:21 masak Moukeddar: cool.
18:22 Moukeddar i was reading "Coder to Developer" and he stated that the one should learn a new language every year
18:22 Moukeddar to try different paradigms and mind ets
18:22 Moukeddar sets*
18:22 lumi joined #perl6
18:23 Moukeddar to avoid the bulb paradox :)
18:23 masak I fully support that goal.
18:24 Moukeddar i sure feel pretty confident about getting involved in projects :)
18:27 masak niecza: sub foo($p) { state $x = $p; say $x }; foo(5); foo(42); foo("OH HAI")
18:27 p6eval niecza v6-79-g39dde58: OUTPUT«5␤5␤5␤»
18:27 masak \o/
18:27 masak sorear++
18:27 Moukeddar_ joined #perl6
18:27 masak niecza: sub foo($p) { state $x = $p; say $x }; foo(5); my &bar = &foo.clone; bar(42)
18:27 p6eval niecza v6-79-g39dde58: OUTPUT«5␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method clone in class Sub␤  at /tmp/um31oHNOCG line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1651 (CORE C753_ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1652 (CORE module-CORE @ 57) ␤
18:27 p6eval ..at /home/p6ev…
18:28 masak oh :)
18:28 Moukeddar_ and many thanks go to you masak
18:28 masak glad to help :)
18:29 masak Moukeddar_: you can pay it forward by finding 10 new bugs in Rakudo :P
18:29 masak (if you want)
18:29 Moukeddar_ if i'm qualified :)
18:30 Moukeddar_ masak, it isn't hard to move from perl5 to perl6 , right?
18:31 Moukeddar left #perl6
18:31 masak Moukeddar_: it wasn't for me. but maybe that's because I didn't really know Perl 5 that well when I started with Perl 6 :)
18:32 Moukeddar_ you started directly with perl6?
18:32 masak no, it was like this.
18:32 masak I learned about Perl from a friend around 2003-2004.
18:33 masak and there was lots of info on the web about Perl 6, but there was no implementation to try.
18:33 masak (turns out there was one on Parrot, but I didn't know that)
18:33 masak so I waited, and used Perl 5 a bit. and then Pugs happened.
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18:37 Moukeddar_ that was quick
18:37 Moukeddar_ the thing is i've found  a nice perl5 training
18:38 masak Perl 5 will not disappear anytime soon. it's like English -- you can never learn too much of it :)
18:38 Su-Shee it's also very easy to move from perl 5 to perl 6 if you knew/know perl 5.
18:38 Moukeddar_ alright then
18:38 masak there will be shibboleths, of course. but we're pretty good at steering people right here on the channel.
18:39 Moukeddar_ btw Padre editor is amazing and free
18:39 masak \o/
18:39 Moukeddar_ is ther anything like IronPerl ?
18:39 Moukeddar_ Perl on the CLR :p
18:40 masak does nqp count? :)
18:40 birdwindupbird left #perl6
18:40 * masak .oO( not quite... )
18:40 Moukeddar_ idk
18:40 Moukeddar_ what is it?
18:41 masak it's a minimal-ish implementation of Perl 6 usable for implementing the rest of Perl 6. :)
18:41 masak it doesn't really run on the CLR yet, but I bet it will, soon.
18:41 masak and then, maybe, Rakudo too.
18:42 Moukeddar_ interesting :)
18:43 masak yes -- I'm looking forward to the rest of 2011 :)
18:43 masak if we manage to get Rakudo running on the JVM, too, maybe we could put Perl 6 on the Android platform ;)
18:44 colomon masak: there's some sort of Mono for Android already.  I haven't researched it very far yet, though....
18:44 Moukeddar_ it's called mondroid or something
18:44 Moukeddar_ not free
18:45 Moukeddar_ perl on the JVM , it won't be very hard
18:45 Su-Shee mono for android not free? that doesn't really make sense..
18:45 Moukeddar_ yep , check it out
18:45 Moukeddar_ not free
18:46 Util masak: Doesn't Niecza-6 count as Perl 6 on CLR?
18:47 Su-Shee tsk. unbelievable.
18:47 Util Moukeddar_: Did you settle on one of those videos you were asking about, or did you find some other form of training?
18:48 Moukeddar_ i did settle on one
18:48 noganex left #perl6
18:49 Moukeddar_ i've found monodroid in some russian forum
18:49 masak Util: oh, of course! silly me.
18:49 Moukeddar_ those guys took care of it
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19:11 colomon Moukeddar's right, Mono for Android is a paid service.  Not sure how I missed that in the past, and I'd swear I've heard of a free competitor, but I can't find it today.
19:11 colomon Only $99 for a student, though, might be worth it just to be able to say you're running p6 on your phone!
19:11 lumi joined #perl6
19:13 colomon actually, sorear++ is a student, no?  ;)
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19:27 * colomon so wishes he were writing this test code in Perl 6 instead of C++...
19:30 colomon on the bright side, it appears even my first stupid test found a bug in my code.
19:30 masak been there, done that ;)
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19:30 masak sometimes, even *thinking* about testing brings out bugs in the code.
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19:40 colomon bug in question was a rather stupid infinite loop, so it would have showed up very quickly when I tried to actually use the code.... :)
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20:22 masak rakudo: say "oh", " la" x (2..5).roll, "!"
20:22 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«oh la la!␤»
20:22 masak \o/
20:26 colomon rakudo: say "oh", " la" x (2..5).roll, "!"
20:26 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«oh la la!␤»
20:26 tadzik it's still this ranom?
20:26 tadzik :)
20:27 tadzik szabgab++ # blag toast
20:28 tadzik I didn't see the screencast, but wouldn't a PSGI example be nice? Inheriting Server::Simple is quite a lot of work
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20:37 szabgab tadzik: first I need to understand the whole PSGI thingy :)
20:41 tadzik :)
20:42 tadzik szabgab: look how my minidancer works: https://github.com/tadzik/Baila​dor/blob/master/Bailador.pm#L24
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21:08 masak std: my $foo; my $bar; $foo . $bar
21:08 p6eval std c843201: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~ at /tmp/F0lAyApPr7 line 1:␤------> [32mmy $foo; my $bar; $foo . [33m⏏[31m$bar[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 114m␤»
21:08 masak rakudo: my $foo; my $bar; $foo . $bar; say "alive"
21:08 p6eval rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "$foo . $ba"␤»
21:08 masak LTA :)
21:09 jnthn Patchies welcome :)
21:09 lichtkind cheers pirates
21:09 * masak submits rakudobuggie :)
21:10 masak lichtkind: ahoj, mate!
21:11 jnthn ahoj, lichtkind :)
21:12 lichtkind o/
21:12 sorear o/ jnthn, masak
21:12 jnthn hi sorear
21:13 sorear jnthn: what kind of thing is MyClass.CREATE supposed to return?
21:14 sorear an object with (in Rakudo terms) all attributes set to NULLPMC?
21:14 jnthn sorear: an object
21:14 jnthn sorear: They won't necesarily be null
21:16 lichtkind glad to see you all guys
21:16 jnthn sorear: But they won't necesarily be meaningful
21:16 jnthn sorear: Any default attribute closures certainly won't have been run.
21:16 lichtkind jnthn: you remember what we talked about in pisa?
21:16 jnthn sorear: It's repr-dependent really
21:16 jnthn lichtkind: Erm...I'm sure we talked about more than one thing in Pisa. :)
21:16 tadzik lager, ale...
21:16 jnthn tadzik: Yeah, that's probably why I can't remember the particular thing lichtkind has in mind :P
21:16 lichtkind hahah
21:17 jnthn sorear: method CREATE($repr = 'P6opaque') { <primitive to create an object with $repr representation> }
21:18 jnthn sorear: I'd rather that we didn't make too many promises about the state of that object, besides "you'd better bless it before you try to use it".
21:19 jnthn (which calls BUILDALL and so forth)
21:20 masak \o sorear
21:23 sorear jnthn: I sometimes wonder if bless is actually supposed to work in any way like the Perl 5 primitive
21:24 jnthn sorear: I...er...
21:24 sorear well, CREATE already creates a typed object, no?
21:24 jnthn sorear: Don't really see its place in Perl 6 any more besides calling CREATE and then calling BUILDALL
21:24 sorear Foo.CREATE ~~ Foo ?
21:24 jnthn sorear: Right
21:24 jnthn sorear: bless mostly feels like "thingy that calls CREATE if it needs to and then calls BUILDALL"
21:25 jnthn sorear: We may be able to get rid of it.
21:25 sorear OK
21:25 jnthn It feels like a 5ish hangover.
21:25 jnthn Or we kill CREATE
21:25 jnthn But hm
21:25 sorear worse, it's a 5ish name fossil
21:25 jnthn I dunno
21:25 jnthn I know that currently, new -> bless -> CREATE -> BUILDALL -> BUILD * num_parents is a lot of invocations to create an object. :/
21:25 sorear p5's bless does one and only one thing.  p6's bless does not do that thing.
21:26 jnthn And having bless in there being close to a no-op is something we can't really afford.
21:26 jnthn I don't see why .new can't call CREATE and pass the candidate and all the args on to BUILDALL or something.
21:28 jnthn sorear: I was gonna look at all that stuff (it's top of nommap), but I've adjusted my priorities.
21:28 jnthn Since I realized it's hard to do all of that lot with arrays and hashes. ;)
21:28 sorear what do arrays and hashes have to do with it?
21:29 jnthn sorear: method new(*@whences, *%args) { self.bless(*, |@whences, |%args) }
21:29 jnthn OK, we could really pass the capture on I guess... :)
21:30 sorear jnthn: do you beleive in speccy whence at all?
21:30 jnthn But at some point you've gotta dig through the hash to pull out the things to initialize.
21:30 jnthn speccy whence has one big issue
21:30 jnthn Foo{ ... } is OK
21:30 jnthn It desugaring to Foo but WHENCE { ... } has gotta be bogus
21:30 jnthn It implies that you want to store the closure somewhere
21:31 jnthn But you're mixing into a type object, which gives you...another type object...and type objects can't have state by definition.
21:31 jnthn I'm not sure where the closure lives.
21:32 jnthn Maybe could have a WHENCE slot in the s-table.
21:32 jnthn Plenty of other LOUD things end up in there... :)
21:33 jnthn But that implies WHENCE clones the s-table as well as the type object, which I'm not completely at ease with.
21:33 jnthn Though I guess a shallow clone is OK
21:33 jnthn oh, no, it's not
21:33 jnthn Not with my current factoring.
21:33 jnthn oh, actually
21:33 jnthn hmm...it may be OK
21:33 jnthn oh heck knows :)
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21:34 jnthn I'll have to think on it more, and my thinker is currently lost in the world of parametric poly. :)
21:36 jnthn (Adding a WHENCE slot to ObjectCommonalities is also out...huge memory waste...)
21:37 jnthn fwiw, we stored WHENCE in a Parrot property. But I consider that cheating :)
21:41 bluescreen10 left #perl6
21:43 sorear jnthn: niecza stores WHENCE in a slot on the variable object
21:44 jnthn sorear: "variable object"?
21:44 jnthn P6any?
21:44 sorear no
21:44 jnthn Or your scalar-ish thing?
21:44 sorear I think you call them containers now?
21:44 sorear yeah, right, Scalar
21:44 jnthn ah, OK
21:44 sorear sorry
21:44 jnthn hmmmm
21:44 frobnitz joined #perl6
21:45 jnthn It's OK, we're a bit off name standardization on those yet :)
21:45 Psyche^ joined #perl6
21:46 jnthn sorear: In LolCat{ caption => 'omgwtfperl6' } where's the scalar container? Do you create one just to have a place to but the WHENCE?
21:46 jnthn *put
21:46 sorear jnthn: yes
21:46 jnthn sorear: OK.
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21:46 sorear in niecza, Perl 6 code *never* sees a non-containerized scalar value
21:46 jnthn Ah, OK
21:47 jnthn I think the notion of "something that wraps around the type object" may be helpful
21:47 sorear this is one of the very first design decisions I made; it may be reevaluated at some point
21:47 sorear "Hmm, if I have a Scalar object, how will I make .VAR work?"
21:47 jnthn Whether it's factored as the scalar or as some other thinguymmy
21:48 sorear "Scalar->Scalar->X, then.  FETCH will only take off one layer of Scalar"
21:48 timbunce left #perl6
21:48 jnthn heh, yeah, in Rakudo we're at a single-level unwrap model now
21:48 jnthn I'd figured I could do .VAR just like that :)
21:54 masak blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org​/blog/june-7-2011-arithmetics
21:54 jnthn arith met who?
21:55 masak I never got the thing about not liking maths. for me, programming and maths were two interests that fueled each other.
21:58 TimToady ss/s is//
21:58 masak thanks.
21:58 masak fixing.
21:59 sorear for me, being the only one who liked maths was something that fueled my "having little to no respect for the rest of humanity" phase
21:59 sorear I still don't really get it
22:00 masak sorear: they wouldn't tell me how to multiply large numbers, so I had to invent a method... :)
22:00 masak wasn't perfect, but I got by.
22:00 Eevee masak: I think I had that same insight
22:02 TimToady "one of use miscounted"
22:02 masak thanks. fixing. :)
22:03 masak TimToady++ # reporting typos
22:03 TimToady I have OCD.  (or was tht OCR...)
22:03 TimToady *that
22:04 masak :P
22:04 szabgab I guess the meaning of \n is platform dependent in perl 6, right? Is there asomething that will always give \x0D\x0A ?
22:04 sorear jnthn: in niecza, WHENCE closures take 1 argument, which is the container, they don't return a value, and they exist to do something to make the container real
22:04 sorear szabgab: \x0D\x0A
22:04 sorear will work
22:04 sorear \cM\cJ might be clearer?
22:05 szabgab sorear: both are ugly
22:05 sorear jnthn: like Any{ %hash{$k} := $_ } # although this exact syntax is NYI
22:05 szabgab as I just got a comment to the blog post I had
22:05 szabgab that contained \x0D\x0A\x0D\x0A
22:06 masak szabgab: that's perfectly legible to me, and, I believe, to most people who have done network programming.
22:06 sorear jnthn: there is an operator which takes 1. the initial value, 2. the type constraint, 3. the WHENCE closure, and returns a new rw Scalar that autovivifies when written to or bound
22:06 szabgab and as I understand - though I might be mistaken - that this is what is required on the "network'
22:06 sorear szabgab: \015\012
22:06 masak szabgab: but if that's not enough, there's always descriptive variable names :)
22:06 sorear wait
22:06 sorear needs to be \o in Perl6, doesn'tit
22:07 TimToady perl6: say "\c[13,10]".perl
22:07 sorear jnthn: I am 1. not sure how to attach three mandatory pieces of information to a two-arg syntax 2. not sure what new() should be doing with this
22:07 p6eval pugs, rakudo 484a25: OUTPUT«"\r\n"␤»
22:07 p6eval ..niecza v6-79-g39dde58: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤␤Action method radint not yet implemented at /tmp/K3H6pPYViN line 1:␤------> [32msay "\c[13[33m⏏[31m,10]".perl[0m␤␤Action method charname not yet implemented at /tmp/K3H6pPYViN line 1:␤------> [32msay
22:07 p6eval .."\c[13[33m⏏[31m,10]".perl[0m␤␤Action metho…
22:07 szabgab masak: it was clear to me as well but after seeing the comment from someone I think I can understand the complaint
22:07 sorear ...radint? really?
22:08 masak szabgab: sure. me too.
22:08 szabgab TimToady: would that be the same if run it on Windows?
22:08 masak szabgab: there's always the long unicode descriptions of the characters :)
22:08 szabgab it is 1 am , I am too tired to argue :)
22:11 hercynium left #perl6
22:11 lichtkind szabgab: ping
22:11 szabgab lichtkind: I am still here, but not for long
22:14 sorear TimToady: ping
22:15 szabgab 1/wg 12
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22:28 masak 'night, pretty pastel butterflies.
22:28 masak left #perl6
22:30 sorear TimToady: unping
22:30 sorear szabgab: spiffy.  I need to get IO::Socket::INET working on niecza, I see
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22:40 sorear jnthn?
22:42 jnthn sorear: I'm about, but need to go sleep soon...early start. :(
22:43 sorear jnthn: did you read any of what I wrote above about how SomeClass.new(Foo{bar}) seems to be patent nonsense?
22:43 jnthn sorear: Yes, I read it.
22:44 jnthn sorear: Sorry, I shoulda more explicitly said "I need to look at it more to know what to think"
22:44 jnthn sorear: I have made something like that syntax work before
22:44 jnthn But maybe not in the general case.
22:45 sorear I would also like to know how you plan to do $*CALLER::FOO
22:45 jnthn sorear: Well, $*CALLER::FOO is not so problematic.
22:45 sorear I haven't found a factoring of packaged variables that allows that sort of thing
22:45 jnthn sorear: I'm more bothered by permutations.
22:45 sorear niecza supports psueodopackages, as long as they are packages
22:45 jnthn $*CALLER::OUTER::CALLER::OUTER::CALLER::FOO # omgz...
22:46 sorear $GLOBAL::x, $OUR::x, $PROCESS::x, are all fine
22:46 jnthn Well, they're not all that pseudo :)
22:46 sorear once you start getting into things like MY::, I don't have an answer
22:46 jnthn Well, I guess they are
22:46 jnthn :)
22:47 jnthn Well, if a lexpad and a stash present the same hashish interface, I guess it could "just work".
22:47 sorear No
22:47 sorear because lexpads are cloned
22:47 sorear $OUR::x looks up a hash slot at compile time
22:48 sorear $CALLER::x... can't
22:48 jnthn Is $OUR::x spec'd as looking it up at compile time, or is that an optimization?
22:49 jnthn $GLOBAL::x probably has to be runtime at least
22:49 sorear it's an important p5ism that I don't have a good reason to lose
22:50 lichtkind good night
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22:54 jnthn urgh, tiredness
22:54 jnthn sleep &
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