IRC log for #perl6, 2011-08-28

Time	Nick	Message
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00:56	ruz	I've changed nqp's source, what's next step?
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05:16	moritz	recompile, install, test rakudo with the newly installed nqp
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05:54	dalek	rakudo/nom: 1848338 \| moritz++ \| / (4 files):
05:54	dalek	rakudo/nom: change names of backtrace classes to match spec
05:54	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/1848338658
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08:25	sorear	good * #perl6
08:25	sorear	TimToady: I do not know what is going on there. Some bug. I know I have/had is equiv working in at least some cases.
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08:27	mberends	hi sorear
08:27	mberends	I'm working with diakopter on sprintf() for Niecza
08:28	sorear	cool.
08:29	mberends	sorear: how do I create an instance of Variable (or SimpleVariable) from a C# string?
08:29	sorear	Kernel.BoxAnyMO("string", Kernel.StrMO)
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08:29	mberends	thanks :)
08:30	* sorear	is pretty busy now but will spend the next few mins recreational-hacking
08:30	sorear	I need words for different sizes of now
08:31	moritz	you mean like "now" vs. "these days" vs. "contemporary"?
08:32		meth joined #perl6
08:32	meth	will cpan be usable still ?
08:32	mberends	meth: eventually, but no idea how soon
08:33	meth	how is that even possible ?
08:33	sorear	"still" implies a lack of understanding
08:33	meth	the language is so different..
08:33	meth	yes I have no understanding that's why i ask
08:34	sorear	perl was forked. perl 6 competes with perl 5.14
08:34	mberends	when the itch for p6 in cpan becomes intense enough, the cpan developers will probably scratch it.
08:34	JimmyZ	http://www.cpan6.org/design-en.html
08:35	meth	well what I'm getting at is will perl 5 repository be usable from perl6 or will it all have to be rewritten ?
08:35	sorear	JimmyZ: cpan6 is considered a joke around here
08:35	mberends	JimmyZ: that is vapourware
08:35	sorear	meth: We think most of it will be usable.
08:36	meth	how is that possible though ? like binary compatibility or something ?
08:36	sorear	meth: Infrastructural things like Moose (especially, all things with XS) will probably want to be rewritten
08:36	meth	some kind of binding ?
08:36	sorear	our primary goal is compatibility for darkpan
08:37	sorear	however, the compatibility layer is still some years off. Early adopters are referred to Blizkost, which embeds a P5 interpreter into Parrot and allows for communication
08:37		masak joined #perl6
08:37	sorear	it's not transparent, but it does allow bidirectional calling and data transfer
08:37	masak	Sunday salutations, #perl6
08:38	JimmyZ	\o masak
08:38	sorear	o/ masak.
08:38	meth	yea so it's like writing bindings or something
08:38	meth	ffi for example
08:38	sorear	Pretty much.
08:39	sorear	It does automate memory management
08:40	sorear	masak: hmm. ISTR you saying something about a STD::P5 hackathon at $VENUE some months ago.
08:40	masak	sorear: yes. it's gained a few degrees more of reality since then.
08:40	Su-Shee	sorear: why would you rewrite moose with perl6's MOP in place?
08:40	meth	oo nasty hll compiler interface.. sounds weird
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08:40	meth	doesn't sound very native feeling
08:41	masak	meth: well, that's VMs for ya,
08:42	meth	am i correct to think that perl6 supports multidimensional structures now without so much perlreftut fuss ?
08:42	masak	yes.
08:42	meth	kind of seemed like all the references went away
08:42	masak	in a way yes, in a way no.
08:43	masak	std: my @matrix[ 10; 10 ]; say @matrix[ 4; 7 ]
08:43	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
08:43	sayu	Hello
08:43	masak	sayu: hallo!
08:43	JimmyZ	aloha
08:44	sorear	Su-Shee: compatibility
08:44	Su-Shee	sorear: uhm? who to what?
08:44	meth	was perl 6 started by another group or something ?
08:44	meth	maybe it should be renamed to another language
08:45	sorear	meth: Perl 6 was started by Larry Wall.
08:45	meth	Allot of it seems to moving towards other languages.. like Ruby and Lisp
08:45	sorear	Perl 5.10 was an unauthorized (but entirely justified) creation of Jesse Vincent et al.
08:46	meth	and python with it's lisp comprehensions
08:46	meth	who what ?
08:46	Su-Shee	meth: and before you dive into the naming discussion: how is the name relevant? do you like the language? can it do what you want? then use it no matter wether it's called klaus-dieter or perl 30948532. ;)
08:46	mberends	Su-Shee: :)
08:46	sorear	meth: the perl5-porters were impatient.
08:46	masak	meth: Perl 6 needs a rename like it needs a hole in the head.
08:46	Su-Shee	meth: "towards moving other languages"?
08:47	meth	defer reminds me of amb in lisp
08:47	moritz	meth: Perl 6 is a different language than Perl 5, but it's still Perl
08:47	meth	@array[index] without need for different sigil or the derefs we talked about for multidimentional structures is more like other languages too
08:47	sorear	Su-Shee: lots of darkpan code does 'use Moose;' and then expects Class::MOP::Class->create(...) to work.
08:48	sorear	Su-Shee: we need to emulate the API on top of Parrot/Niecza
08:48	meth	many things are moving towards being objects now like Array and Hash
08:48	mberends	meth: evolving languages often steal good ideas from each other, and that's a good thing
08:48	sorear	Su-Shee: since both systems have native attributes and roles, Moose.pm6 will likely be much smaller than CMOP/Moose
08:48	meth	heh yea
08:48	sorear	Su-Shee: but it needs to exist.
08:49	meth	i agree just pointing out that it's becoming more like others in that regard.. which yes i hope i wake up in a few years and never have to deal with more perl refs again :]
08:49	masak	meth: the deref thing that you're talking about is mostly syntax, in my opinion. it makes things look nicer, but it's not that big a change.
08:49	masak	you still have to "deal with perl refs" sometimes.
08:49	sorear	meth: Perl 6 does not have a "reference" type at all. That is dead and buried. \o/
08:49	meth	hm how so ? you're able to rewind state of the environment and undo changes and try another execution path.. did perl5 have that ?
08:50	Su-Shee	sorear: I'm so very much not going to wrap my moose projects into perl 6 I can't even tell you how much I'm not going to do that. either I rewrite in 6 or it stays moose. either new projects are going to be 6 or they will be moose.
08:50	sorear	meth: um, what are you reading?
08:50	masak	;)
08:50	meth	i read the perl6 spec
08:50	masak	dangerous stuff.
08:50	masak	meth: regexes behave the way you suggest, in both Perl 5 and Perl 6.
08:51	Su-Shee	meth: you realize that perl 5.14 already released features to deal with less dereferencing?
08:51	meth	su-shee yea some what
08:51	meth	masak ok..
08:51	sorear	Su-Shee: I never said you would use Perl 6 syntax.
08:52	sorear	Su-Shee: Moose.pm6 is necessary in order to achieve the goal of "Perl 6.0 can parse and execute a majority of existing Perl 5 code'
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08:52	Su-Shee	sorear: but the majority of existing perl code doesn't even use moose?
08:52	sorear	I give up.
08:53	meth	http://perlcabal.org/syn/S17.html#Concurrency
08:53	meth	that's what i read
08:53	Su-Shee	sorear: as you wish.
08:53	sorear	meth: S17 isn't ready for public consumption yet.
08:53	meth	check out maybe/defer
08:53	meth	so ?
08:53	masak	meth: some synopses are less "solid" than others.
08:53	meth	I'm not using perl6 just reading about it
08:54	masak	meth: S17, by and large, isn't very solid yet. it will contain falsehoods.
08:54	sorear	meth: S02-S14, S17, S29, and S32 are the ones that are useful in their current states.
08:54	meth	what's the name of that stuff that lets you create an object that "could" be multiple objects and then randomly becomes one when you work with it ? something that acts like quantum physics or something
08:54	sorear	meth: er, S19, not S17
08:55	masak	meth: junctions.
08:55	sorear	meth: a very old and broken metaphor for junctions
08:55	masak	meth: but it never 'becomes one' randomly. it becomes all of them.
08:55	meth	heh ok ..
08:55	sorear	junctions are a linguistic thing
08:56	sorear	all($x,$y,$z) < 10 means $x < 10 && $y < 10 && $z < 10
08:56	meth	yea
08:56	meth	that could just be a map operation
08:56	sorear	an early prototype of junctions was Quantum::Superpositions, but true superpositions follow entirely different laws
08:56	sorear	yes
08:57	sorear	it is exactly a map operation
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08:57	meth	are they all just maps ?
08:57	meth	i have to read about them one sec
08:58	meth	why the whole need for OUTER ?
08:58	meth	i mean I'm sure you had good reason or something but just wondering
08:59	sorear	metalinguistic.
08:59	sorear	niecza: my $x = 2; { my $x = 4; say $OUTER::x }
08:59	p6eval	niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUTÂ«Potential difficulties:â�¤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/eMU4V96Lob line 1:â�¤------> my $x = 2; { my â��$x = 4; say $OUTER::x }â�¤â�¤2â�¤Â»
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09:00	sorear	I wouldn't call it particularly useful in practice, but the fact that we have a name for it makes it much easier to talk about the language
09:01	sorear	phenny: tell diakopter frown you've checked in half a megabyte of versions of lib/Solution/Niecza/Niecza.pidb. Is it really necessary to have this file under version control? It looks like debug information to me.
09:01	phenny	sorear: I'll pass that on when diakopter is around.
09:01	meth	idk what's up with +< instead of << :[
09:02	sorear	Perl 6 is TimToady's grand plan to change the norms of programming language design.
09:02	meth	don't see the point in the one above though
09:03	meth	they should relinquish "say" as a keyword I would think since any block can have CATCH
09:03	mberends	meth: << was better employed as the "Texas" version of «
09:03	meth	oops i mean "try"
09:04	meth	idk but binary operators have been around since c... and the over use of + will lead to really confusing code i would think but that's just guessing
09:05	mberends	meth: you should be a language designer! ;)
09:05	meth	heh i like to read about it but as stands i can't compete :p
09:05	mberends	:p
09:06	meth	i mean for math, then you can overload them, binary operators, then context operators, then what else ?
09:07	pmichaud	I think "try" is kept as a keyword so that a block isn't required.
09:08	pmichaud	i.e., one can write try xyz(); and not have to write { xyz(); CATCH { ... } }
09:08	pmichaud	(good morning, #perl6)
09:08	sorear	hi pmichaud
09:08	mberends	good *, pmichaud
09:09	meth	hm you mean try xyz() CATCH ?
09:09	meth	I'm going to miss the modulo operator :.[
09:09	masak	hi pmichaud
09:09	sorear	rakudo: say 5 % 2
09:09	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«1␤»
09:09	sorear	eh?
09:09	pmichaud	meth: no, I don't think that's what I meant.
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09:10	sorear	hmm
09:10	sorear	niecza: sub a { die("foo") ; CATCH {return "foo"}}; say a()
09:10	p6eval	niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
09:10	meth	is terrenary operator still around ?
09:10	sorear	rakudo: say True ?? 5 !! 2;
09:10	pmichaud	meth: it's now ?? !! instead of ? :
09:10	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«5␤»
09:10	meth	pmichaud you serious ???
09:11	mberends	meth: you said you were reading the specs!
09:11	pmichaud	meth: about ??!!, yes
09:11	pmichaud	?? !! makes much more sense than ? :
09:11	masak	meth: I used ?? !! back when it was ?? ::
09:11	masak	meth: I like ?? !! better.
09:11	pmichaud	in Perl 6, "?" means "truth part" and "!" means "false part"
09:11	mberends	?? is the same size as && and \|\|, and !! means not (for the else case)
09:12	pmichaud	in general, we use ? and ! for boolean things
09:12	meth	how ?
09:12	masak	also, both && and ??!! are short-circuiting, in a sense.
09:12	masak	rakudo: say ?7; say !7
09:12	sorear	what's happening here (mls' "bug") is that CATCH is being called from within the dynamic scope of &die, and so return causes die to return
09:12	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::False␤»
09:12	sorear	effectively CATCH { return } becomes a resume operator.
09:12	masak	sorear: hm, interesting.
09:13	sorear	this will be fixed once niecza gets lexotic returns
09:13	meth	some things also remind me of shell scripting now
09:14	meth	for instance ~@array
09:14	meth	<<foo $bar bat>>
09:14	sorear	those are called "shell quotes".
09:14	meth	who what ?
09:15	meth	ah you mean i should of called it shell quoting
09:15	pmichaud	off to try to get some sleep before the sun rises
09:15	pmichaud	bbl
09:16	sorear	meth: we, as a community of linguists, need names for things like that.
09:16	sorear	meth: I don't care what you call them, but we call them "shell quotes".
09:16	meth	heh cool
09:16	meth	thanks
09:17	pmichaud	.oO( what do we call people who need names for things? :)
09:18	meth	namists
09:19	sorear	phenny: tell TimToady your problem was you used "multi" for the operators. Precedence needs to apply to the entire sub, not specific candidates
09:19	phenny	sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
09:20	sorear	phenny: tell TimToady (that said, niecza doesn't know how to propagate traits from proto to dispatch either - precedence will only work on "only" subs)
09:20	phenny	sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
09:20	meth	multi subs... feel like he was trying to talk about lips multi methods or generic functions ?
09:20	meth	lisps*
09:20	sorear	meth: more like CLOS' multi methods, although I doubt they originated there.
09:21	meth	Being able to create an object that can act like a hash or array is cool but then again why even require the @ or % sigil's at all anymore ? They could of just made [] a method call and Array and Hash builtins..
09:22	meth	s/and/on/
09:25	sorear	[] is a method call.
09:26	sorear	masak: what amused me was after I had done nontrivial playing-with of automated testing and proof systems and realized that they were related.
09:27	meth	if it is a method call then why require @ , % , $ ? could just require non of them ..
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09:28	meth	i assume then that {} is a method call too ?
09:29	sorear	yes
09:29	sorear	[], {}, and () are funny syntax that calls a method named "postcircumfix:<[ ]>" etc
09:30	sorear	niecza: my $name = 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>'; my @array = 2,4,6; say @array."$name"(2)
09:30	p6eval	niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUT«6␤»
09:30	meth	hm... where does () apply ? are you saying that a class can actually be called with () ?
09:30	meth	like $o = Obj.new; $o() ?
09:31	sorear	niecza: class Obj { method postcircumfix:<( )>($x, $y) { say "called($x, $y)" } }; my $o = Obj.new; $o(5, 12);
09:31	p6eval	niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUT«called(5, 12)␤»
09:31	meth	cool
09:31	meth	can't do that in most other languages
09:31	sorear	the builtin class Code (common ancestor of Sub, Method, Block, Regex, etc) has a postcircumfix:<( )> method
09:33	meth	oh wow Sub is a class ?
09:33	sorear	rakudo: sub foo() { }; say &foo.^methods(:local).map(*.name)
09:33	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«␤»
09:34	sorear	rakudo: sub foo() { }; say &foo.^parents;
09:34	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Routine()Block()Code()Cool()Any()Mu()␤»
09:34	sorear	rakudo: sub foo() { }; say &foo.WHAT;
09:34	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Sub()␤»
09:34	sorear	rakudo: sub foo() { }; say ~Code.^methods(:local);
09:34	meth	who the what
09:34	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«new assuming callwith multi name perl signature do Str of returns␤»
09:35	sorear	hmm, actually I think Rakudo is cheating a bit here
09:36	sorear	there's an inherent circularity here - method calls work by looking up a Method object, then calling its postcircumfix:<( )> method
09:36	sorear	nom: sub foo() { }; say ~Code.^methods(:local);
09:36	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Method 'Stringy' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤ in method join at src/gen/CORE.setting:823␤ in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:3780␤ in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:3200␤ in method Stringy at src/gen/CORE.setting:530␤ in sub prefix:<~> at src/gen…
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09:36	sorear	nom: sub foo() { }; say Code.^methods(:local);
09:36	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:3231␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:4613␤ in <anon> at /tmp/62sYypGKMc:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/62sYypGKMc:1␤␤»
09:36	sorear	nom: sub foo() { }; say Code.^methods(:local).map(*.name)
09:36	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Whatever'␤ in <anon> at /tmp/xXZ9O6RuPD:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/xXZ9O6RuPD:1␤␤»
09:36	sorear	nom: sub foo() { }; say Code.^methods(:local).map(sub ($x) { $x.name })
09:36	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Unmarshallable foreign language value passed for parameter '$x'␤ in sub <anon> at /tmp/hMvieaR977:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3597␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3502␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3502␤ in method gimme at src/g…
09:37	sorear	nom: sub foo() { }; say Code.^methods(:local).map(sub (\$x) { $x.name })
09:37	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Unmarshallable foreign language value passed for parameter '$x'␤ in sub <anon> at /tmp/PvrLvTIDKa:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3597␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3502␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3502␤ in method gimme at src/g…
09:37	sorear	sigh
09:38	flussence	> Code.^methods(:local)».name
09:38	flussence	Segmentation fault
09:38	flussence	:/
09:39	sorear	flussence: local nom?
09:40	sorear	meth: do you need niecza:, rakudo:, and nom: explained?
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09:42	meth	yea idk i can't think of why not to get rid of $, @, %
09:42	sorear	phenny: tell TimToady In your last std commit, what's the comment about P5isms and P6isms about?
09:42	phenny	sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
09:44	sorear	meth: that's a very good question and you should ask TimToady it.
09:44	flussence	sorear: yep
09:44	sorear	meth: he'll probably be up in a few hours.
09:45	meth	well I'd be amazed if he wasn't aware of the idea
09:45	meth	i mean that's how other languages already do it
09:45	flussence	limiting your vocabulary for no good reason makes bad code - http://lwn.net/Articles/454716/
09:45	meth	look at like ruby or javascript or lua
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09:46	meth	ooo looks like a good read
09:46		jdhoreOTG joined #perl6
09:48	meth	yea i mean as far as junctions go.. any() ~ "a" couldn't that just be Array ~ "a" ?
09:49	flussence	Arrays don't autothread.
09:49	meth	ah but they should! i thought that was a big thing in perl6 loops anyway ?
09:49	meth	and something like Array ~ "a" would be implemented as a loop..
09:50	flussence	Explicitly sequential data structures can not safely be operated on in parallel due to potential side effects
09:51	masak	sorear: [automated testing and proof systems related] interesting. is it easy to explain how?
09:51	meth	why not ? ~ is just testing there is no side affect ?
09:51	masak	meth: operative words being "potential" :)
09:52	sorear	meth: a Junction is more than just an array, it also has a sense.
09:52	sorear	meth: any($x,$y) < 10 and all($x,$y) < 10 mean different things
09:52	meth	yea but just cause i use a junction doesn't mean my list isn't just as potentially in trouble as if it was an array
09:53	sorear	masak: they're both about saying what you mean twice in two very different ways and having the computer check for discrepencies.
09:53	meth	what do you mean a sense ?
09:53	sorear	meth: any, all, one, none.
09:54	meth	so ?
09:54	meth	@a=1,2; @a.any(<10) if perl6 has partials or @a.any{$_<10} etc..
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09:57	TiMBuS	yes, that works
09:57	meth	it oes ?
09:58	meth	does *
09:58	masak	sorear: oh, fair enough.
09:58	TiMBuS	not sure about the method form but, yeah
09:59	meth	< is confused
09:59	meth	you have an example ?
10:00	TiMBuS	uh
10:00	TiMBuS	my @a = 1,2,3; say(any(@a) < 2); # is this what you want?
10:00	TiMBuS	nom: my @a = 1,2,3; say(any(@a) < 2); # is this what you want?
10:00	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«any(True, False, False)␤»
10:01	meth	does that work for hash's as well ?
10:01	TiMBuS	lets find out!
10:01	meth	anyway my point though was that all those things are basically folds that could be methods on Array
10:02	TiMBuS	my @a = 1,2,3; say @a.any #don't think so..
10:02	meth	what ?
10:02	TiMBuS	hm
10:02	TiMBuS	nom: my @a = 1,2,3; say @a.any
10:02	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«any(1, 2, 3)␤»
10:03	meth	well i asked if it worked for hash's... say(any(%h)<2)
10:03	flussence	why only as Array methods, and not also List, Parcel, Range ... * methods?
10:03	TiMBuS	on the keys, or on the vales
10:03	meth	don't they all share a common enumerable class or something ?
10:04	meth	i guess something just has to act like an array and then you can pass it to say
10:05	meth	i mean junctions
10:05	flussence	How would you write any($a, $b, $c) as a method call without a wasteful temporary variable?
10:05	meth	i guess if you overload your object
10:06	meth	you mean $r = any($a,$b,$c)
10:06	meth	?
10:06	meth	probably like $r = [$a,$b,$c][rand(2)]
10:06	flussence	as in requiring it to be a method on container objects, which you seem to be implying.
10:07	meth	well the container is auto created anyway .. it's basically the list formed when calling any
10:08	TiMBuS	okay, so i guess the question is: what do you want perl6 to do that it doesn't already do?
10:08	TiMBuS	autothread, i assume?
10:09	meth	me ? nothing.. just contemplating
10:09	TiMBuS	oh
10:09	meth	i thought loops in perl6 will auto thread if the optimizer thinks it's safe and worth it ?
10:09	TiMBuS	maybe, if we even had an optimizer
10:09	TiMBuS	hyper operators are also supposed to autothread
10:10	meth	idk that's one of the features i remember reading about years ago in perl 6
10:10	TiMBuS	a long time ago for all(@array) { } was going to autothread
10:11	meth	heh.. yea i mean i been reading about perl6 so long idk when it's going to happen
10:11	TiMBuS	well to autothread, perl first needs to thread
10:11	TiMBuS	and it doesnt ;/
10:11	flussence	perl6: (1..5)».say
10:12	p6eval	pugs: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\187'␤2␤3␤4␤5␤1␤»
10:12	p6eval	..rakudo a55346, niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤»
10:12	TiMBuS	cant tell if it was the bug, or if pugs autothreaded that
10:12	meth	from what i read perl6 has allot of concurrency conscious ?
10:13	flussence	nom: (1..5)».say
10:13	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«1␤2␤5␤3␤4␤»
10:13	TiMBuS	sorta. i guess it comes with needing to be lazy-aware as well
10:13	TiMBuS	hoho flussence
10:13	TiMBuS	for real?
10:14	flussence	IIRC it just shuffles values around to stop people making assumptions about »
10:14	TiMBuS	aw
10:14	flussence	there is some sort of code there for autothreading though
10:15	TiMBuS	i just want normal threads
10:15	TiMBuS	not ithreads :/
10:26	meth	if Sub is an object then what does that mean for me ? can i like add methods to functions or something ?
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10:26	meth	was i also correct to read that perl6 will provide atomic variables ?
10:31	masak	meth: yes, Perl 6 is constructed with concurrency in mind.
10:31	masak	meth: atomic variables -- we'll see, that's S17 too ;)
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10:31	masak	meth: listening to jnthn++ talk, it seems that the concurrency primitive we'll end up with is CAS.
10:32	masak	meth: Sub is an object, and that means that you can ask it various questions about itself and, yes, maybe even change it in different ways.
10:32	masak	meth: have you seen .wrap ?
10:32	meth	wraps it in a another function ?
10:33	meth	will blocks return implicitly ?
10:33	meth	i mean like no need for return keyword ?
10:33	meth	to "return" a value
10:33	JimmyZ	yes
10:33	meth	was perl5 like that ?
10:33	meth	can't remember
10:33	JimmyZ	yeah
10:34	meth	ah ok
10:34	meth	anyway 6:30am I'm about to pass out
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10:36	mberends	/o\
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11:09	masak	nom: sub foo { say "in the" }; &foo.wrap: sub { say "you're"; callsame; say "army now" }; foo
11:09	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Method 'wrap' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤ in <anon> at /tmp/QuHBfhHRkG:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/QuHBfhHRkG:1␤␤»
11:09	masak	perl6: sub foo { say "in the" }; &foo.wrap: sub { say "you're"; callsame; say "army now" }; foo
11:09	p6eval	pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Sub: "&wrap"␤ at /tmp/Qpr_NUlQp3 line 1, column 27-84␤»
11:09	p6eval	..rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«you're␤in the␤army now␤»
11:09	p6eval	..niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method wrap in class Sub␤ at /tmp/ENYj3dPrih line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2049 (CORE C954_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2050 (CORE module-CORE …
11:09	masak	master is still the master.
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11:49	* masak	relishes the Sunday-ness of it all
11:49	mberends	:D
11:52	masak	I'll do some $dayjob after lunch, and then I'll turn to the -n and -p post.
11:52	masak	the macros post is next. maybe, just maybe, I'll get it out today too.
11:53	masak	(macros are awesome, by the way)
11:54	* mberends	imagines an STL for Perl6
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12:00	* JimmyZ	hates STL for C++
12:07	dalek	roast: 0124768 \| (Martin Berends)++ \| S32-str/sprintf.t:
12:07	dalek	roast: niecza fudge sprintf("%C", ...)
12:07	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/012476830f
12:07	masak	mberends: I've sometimes been toying with the idea of building a library of several tree/heap/list/hash implementations, all with interfaces that map nicely to what Perl 6 already provides. sort of a Perl 6 version of Java Collections.
12:09	mberends	masak: do you mean a library in Java?
12:14	masak	no, I mean a set of modules for Perl 6.
12:15	masak	usually, we like to pretend that arryas and hashes can build anything in Perl.
12:15	masak	and usually, they can. unless you care extra much about performance.
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13:25	masak	so... when's the merge?
13:25	* masak	sits with the finger over "launch RT attack" button
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14:35	masak	sorear: [re superpositions] have you read something by Scott Aaronson? he refers to the depiction of quantum mechanics as "light being both a wave and a particle" as "the Copenhagenists’ mind-numbing obfuscations". instead, he argues that QM can be seen from an information/probabilities/observables perspective.
14:35	masak	cf. http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=277
14:36	masak	he's quite possibly the most interesting (and funniest) scientist in the blogosphere.
14:38	arnsholt	"The longer I blog, the more I despair of ever achieving my central goal in life, namely for everyone to like me." Life's eternal dilemma =)
14:40	masak	his sedondary goal in life, given further down, is for everyone to understand him :P
14:42	masak	http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Ternary_logic#Perl_6 is nice. TimToady++
14:42	masak	I laughed at <Foo Moo Too> :)
14:42	masak	but from what I see of SQL, ternary logic is quite counterintuitive and has one fatal flaw:
14:43	masak	in the heat of battle, you forget about the Moo case.
14:43	masak	if val == answer { ... } elsif val != { ... } # great, I covered all the cases
14:44	masak	er, s/val !=/val != answer/
14:44	mberends	Too be or not Too be, that is the question
14:44	masak	right! even Hamlet was a dualist.
14:45	masak	I believe Ovid has a blog post or Too on the topic.
14:45	arnsholt	But in Perl you'll usually get a warning about undefined value in comparison, most of the time =)
14:45	masak	arnsholt: right; I wasn't referring to that.
14:45	masak	out-of band values like undef seem to work fine.
14:46	masak	it's when you assume things like Excluded Middle and the code looks fine but isn't, that things go awry.
14:46	arnsholt	Yeah, I regularly hit that in my adventures in SQL. I always forget IS NOT NULL when I need it
14:46	masak	that's what I'm talking about.
14:47	masak	cf. http://programmers.stackexchan[…]on-dollar-mistake which is more about NULL in programming languages than in DSLs like SQL, but still.
14:47	arnsholt	Forgetting to use LEFT/RIGHT JOIN is even more insidious, since it'll result in data just disappearing
14:48	masak	arnsholt: that's what tests are for ;)
14:49	arnsholt	Tests? Preposterous! ;p
14:50	arnsholt	I've actually got a (very small) test suite for my statistical inference modules
14:50	arnsholt	But writing the tests to make sure you've implemented Viterbi's algorithm correctly is kinda tricky
14:51	arnsholt	Especially for things more complicated than HMMs
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15:04	* masak	.oO( they make you go "HMM"... )
15:08	arnsholt	Indeed they do ^_^
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15:31	dalek	niecza: 6bc1637 \| (Martin Berends)++ \| / (2 files):
15:31	dalek	niecza: [lib/Printf.cs] now passes 40/44 sprintf tests with 1 skip
15:31	dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/6bc1637e71
15:33	mberends	the sprintf spectests look very minimal - will look what p5 has
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15:33	masak	mberends++
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15:47	flussence	niecza: printf('%d %1$x', 45);
15:47	p6eval	niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤ 'printf' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 685 (CORE die @ 2) â�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1136 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 36) â�¤â€¦
15:47	flussence	whoops...
15:47	flussence	I'll wait until it updates :)
15:49	mberends	niecza: say sprintf('%d %1$x', 45); # flussence: sprintf, not printf yet
15:49	p6eval	niecza v8-57-ga89a9a6: OUTPUT«%d %1$x␤»
15:50	mberends	hmm
15:54	mberends	yes, wait for the rebuild, it works locally
15:56	mberends	evalbot rebuild niecza
15:56	p6eval	OK (started asynchronously)
15:58	mberends	niecza: say sprintf('%d %1$x', 45)
15:58	p6eval	niecza v8-58-g6bc1637: OUTPUT«45 2d␤»
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16:02	mberends	p5 t_op_sprintf.t has 540 tests and t_op_sprintf2.t has 1368, p6 has 44
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16:21	abercrombie	Hi, my $a='f'; sub f {}; how to call f() from $a ?
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16:40	plobsing_	abercrombie: based on a skimming of synopses s06 and s10, I'd wager you'd use 'our sub f {}' and 'OUR::($a)();'
16:41	plobsing_	perl6: my $a='f'; our sub f {}; OUR::($a)()
16:41	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Indirect name lookups not yet implemented at line 22, near "()"␤»
16:41	p6eval	..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "OUR"␤ expecting ";", Doc block, block declaration, declaration, construct or expression␤ at /tmp/WBevexr1CG line 1, column 26␤»
16:41	p6eval	..niecza v8-58-g6bc1637: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in class Any␤ at /tmp/KtazdfHsEl line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2049 (CORE C954_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2050 (CO…
16:42	gfldex	nom: my $a='f'; our sub f {}; OUR::($a)()
16:42	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Combination of indirect name lookup and call not (yet?) allowed at line 1, near ""␤»
16:42	plobsing_	unfortunately it appears none of the implementations implement it.
16:43	plobsing_	abercrombie: often there are better ways to accomplish tasks than using the symbol table like a hash. what are you trying to do?
16:59	masak	one solution that readily suggests itself is... to use a hash ;)
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17:19	abercrombie	Oh, I just wonder whether there is a prefix for "function context" like &($a)
17:21	masak	no.
17:21	masak	if something isn't already a function, there isn't much hope of contexting it into one.
17:21	masak	if it already is a function, you can already call it and have other functiony fun with it.
17:22	abercrombie	I see. So the best way to do it is like what plobsing said
17:23	abercrombie	or I can use eval to do it just like in perl5
17:24	abercrombie	nom: my $a='f'; sub f{say "here"}; eval($a)
17:24	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«here␤»
17:25	masak	rakudo: my %h = foo => { say "foo called" }, bar => { say "bar called" }; sub call($function) { die "$function doesn't exist" unless %h.exists($function); %h{$function}() }; call 'foo'; call 'bar'; call 'fnordookie'
17:25	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«foo called␤bar called␤fnordookie doesn't exist␤ in 'call' at line 22:/tmp/pH8IdxhqeS␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/pH8IdxhqeS␤»
17:26	abercrombie	gotcha
17:26	masak	you could use &eval, yes. but it is slightly too big a gun when a simple hash of Callable will do.
17:26	abercrombie	yes, I agree
17:27	abercrombie	Thanks guys.
17:27	* masak	curtsies
17:28	abercrombie	It seems every perl guru likes to use "foo" and "bar"
17:29	masak	yes. we need new magic words, those are getting worn ;)
17:31	abercrombie	"the origin of both is the U.S. Army phrase FUBAR (an acronym which, in discreet language, represents Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition/Repair"
17:31	masak	rakudo: my %h = kitty => { say "foo called" }, puppy => { say "bar called" }; sub call($function) { die "'$function' doesn't exist" unless %h.exists($function); %h{$function}() }; call 'kitty'; call 'puppy'; call 'big freakin DRAGON'
17:31	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«foo called␤bar called␤'big freakin DRAGON' doesn't exist␤ in 'call' at line 22:/tmp/uHHw3eIM3u␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/uHHw3eIM3u␤»
17:31	masak	oops :)
17:31	masak	rakudo: my %h = kitty => { say "kitty called" }, puppy => { say "doggy called" }; sub call($function) { die "'$function' doesn't exist" unless %h.exists($function); %h{$function}() }; call 'kitty'; call 'puppy'; call 'big freakin DRAGON'
17:31	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«kitty called␤doggy called␤'big freakin DRAGON' doesn't exist␤ in 'call' at line 22:/tmp/BuN99fIJxu␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/BuN99fIJxu␤»
17:31	masak	er.
17:31	Tene	masak: for a hash of callable, I prefer something more like %h.exists($function) ?? %h{$function}() !! %h<DEFAULT>()
17:32	masak	rakudo: my %h = kitty => { say "kitty called" }, puppy => { say "puppy called" }; sub call($function) { die "'$function' doesn't exist" unless %h.exists($function); %h{$function}() }; call 'kitty'; call 'puppy'; call 'big freakin DRAGON'
17:32	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«kitty called␤puppy called␤'big freakin DRAGON' doesn't exist␤ in 'call' at line 22:/tmp/mnAStZz7ye␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/mnAStZz7ye␤»
17:32	masak	Tene: fair enuf.
17:32	masak	Tene: why not %h{ %h.exists{$function} ?? $function !! 'DEFAULT' }, ooc?
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17:33	masak	er, %h{ %h.exists{$function} ?? $function !! 'DEFAULT' }();
17:33	* masak	.oO( Bikeshedders Anonymous )
17:33	Tene	masak: I think what I've actually used is more like (%h{$function} // %h<DEFAULT>)()
17:34	masak	yes, nice.
17:34	Tene	I didn't mean that specific syntax, though, just that I prefer putting a fallback action in the callback table
17:34	masak	Tene: it would be nice to have hashes with settable defaults, too.
17:35	masak	Tene: yes, I should remember that trick more often. it's nice to make things in-band when possible.
17:35	Tene	I've always been skeptical of the utility of that, but maybe that's just because it's unfamiliar
17:36	masak	well, the utility is offset by some action-at-adistance, I guess.
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17:55	meth	hey timtoady ?
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18:11	uvtc	masak: I liked your recent "why tests will change the way you code" blog post. I think a great followup would be a tutorial on writing tests for your Perl 6 code.
18:12	uvtc	masak: also thought it was good that you included a summary at the end of your blog post.
18:16	masak	thanks!
18:16	masak	I'll have to think a bit on whether I have something to say about writing tests for one's Perl 6 code.
18:17	uvtc	masak: I just mean something basic. As in, use $this module, structure your directories like $that, run your tests $like-so.
18:19	uvtc	masak: or maybe there's an advent calendar article I'm missing...
18:19	meth	some of the things look really nice in perl6 but then again it's becoming a lisp dialect lol
18:20	uvtc	masak: ah, ok. Found this http://perl6advent.wordpress.c[…]04/day-4-testing/ .
18:23	masak	ah, yes.
18:23	masak	you'll note that my post doesn't mention Perl 6, by the way. when I'm excited about tests, I'm language-agnostic ;)
18:23	masak	I wrote tests in C a few weeks ago.
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18:25	masak	what might be specific to the way testing is done with Perl 6 are the ways all the DI/mocking/faking/stubbing stuff is set up.
18:26	masak	jnthn++'s https://github.com/jnthn/test-mock/ comes to mind.
18:27	uvtc	Perhaps users can just get up to speed with the basics by just looking at what some of the other modules at modules.perl6.org are doing...
18:28	masak	this is where I have one of my blind spots, I guess.
18:28	masak	I hadn't considered it something people might want to learn until now.
18:29	masak	as I wrote, it's just a list of assertions :P
18:30	soh_cah_toa	if it means anything, i'm currently writing a chapter on p6 testing for "Using Perl 6"
18:32	masak	\o/
18:32	soh_cah_toa	i just haven't pushed my work so far b/c i can't get the build process to work for some reason :\
18:32	uvtc	soh_cah_toa, You mean perl6/book? That sounds great.
18:33	soh_cah_toa	yup
18:33	masak	soh_cah_toa: that's sometimes been my main trouble with the book as well.
18:33		uvtc left #perl6
18:33	flussence	I just wrote something horrible :(
18:33	masak	soh_cah_toa: if you don't mention DI in that chapter, I'll add it.
18:33	flussence	$text.flip.split('\|', 2)».flip
18:33	masak	flussence: looks good to me.
18:33	flussence	yeah, but eww.
18:34	soh_cah_toa	masak: di?
18:34	flussence	(split's $limit should work like substr IMO - *-2)
18:35	* moritz	appears
18:35	PerlJam	flussence: what would that mean exactly?
18:36	benabik	nom: my $text='foo\|bar\|baz'; $text.flip.split('\|', 2)».flip.perl.say
18:36	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«("baz", "foo\|bar")␤»
18:36	flussence	I want to chop off something from the end separated by '\|', while leaving the beginning of the string intact
18:38	PerlJam	flussence: that doesn't sound like split's job.
18:38	masak	moritz! \o/
18:38	masak	soh_cah_toa: see my recent blog post. http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]-the-way-you-code
18:39	masak	soh_cah_toa: and then ask if I didn't explain it clearly enough.
18:39	flussence	PerlJam: you're probably right, I could try a regex there.
18:43	soh_cah_toa	masak: nice. i also added a small section like this explaining the benefits of testing and its relation to super awesome p6
18:43	soh_cah_toa	masak: your post gives me some ideas to expand upon
18:45	* moritz	has a wifi driver that kernel-panics if X is running while the first connection is being made
18:45		abercrombie joined #perl6
18:45	moritz	booting in "safe" mode, then bringing up the interface and then 'telinit 5' works though :-)
18:46	benabik	moritz: Sounds LTA.
18:46	soh_cah_toa	http://nopaste.snit.ch/75475
18:46	moritz	benabik: it is
18:46	soh_cah_toa	could anybody help explain why the perl6/book build fails in that nopaste?
18:46	moritz	benabik: broadcom closed source fu
18:48	moritz	soh_cah_toa: seems that some components of your latex installation are too old (?)
18:48	benabik	moritz: I don't see a reason why X should bother WiFi though.
18:48	benabik	moritz: Other than the fact that Broadcom is Doing It Wrong.
18:49	moritz	benabik: it doesn't. But kernel-level C code doesn't have any kind of protection
18:49	soh_cah_toa	moritz: yeah, it make no sense. i have no idea how to "update" it then
18:49	moritz	yep, Doing It Wrong is a very accurate description
18:50	moritz	soh_cah_toa: the good news is that if you only want to hack the contents (and not the build system), 'make html' should work
18:50	soh_cah_toa	ah, didn't notice that make target
18:50	* soh_cah_toa	tries it out
18:51	moritz	I think it's underdocumented
18:51		meth left #perl6
18:52	soh_cah_toa	yup. that works. although a pdf version would be better but at least i can check that it renders properly. moritz++
18:52	dalek	book: f2043cb \| moritz++ \| README:
18:52	dalek	book: mention "make html"
18:52	dalek	book: review: https://github.com/perl6/book/commit/f2043cb839
18:52	soh_cah_toa	:)
18:53	flussence	moritz: which kernel ver? I think Broadcom recently caved in and went open source with their wifi driver
18:54		pernatiy joined #perl6
18:54	moritz	flussence: first tried a 3.0-rc3 or so, then an old-but-good shipped with Debian
18:54	moritz	flussence: and it's only the firmware that is closed source, but that's what seems to cause the problems
18:54	flussence	ah
18:56	* flussence	vaguely remembers having to use ndiswrapper on an atheros once, not fun
18:56		plobsing joined #perl6
18:56		jevin joined #perl6
18:56	moritz	the really annoying part is that this laptop was supposed to have an Intel wifi chip
18:57	moritz	and when I complained, the customer service told me "oh, they are technically equivalent. You can have a 10€ voucher to compensate for your inconvenience"
18:57	moritz	the difference is that intel has much better drivers
18:59	flussence	I think just about every wifi card I've used has required terrible drivers at some point. It'll probably get better in a few months :)
18:59	moritz	right
19:00	flussence	(I still have that atheros one, but I use it for my access point now)
19:01		kannah left #perl6
19:04		donri joined #perl6
19:07	moritz	nom: sub f() { say "in f" }; my $name = 'f'; &::($name).()
19:07	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«in f␤»
19:08	moritz	phenny: tell abercrombie about http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]1-08-28#i_4337460 (calling functions by name)
19:08	phenny	moritz: I'll pass that on when abercrombie is around.
19:09		lateau_ left #perl6
19:12	masak	nom: sub f { "f" }; say &::(f)()
19:12	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«f␤»
19:14	plobsing	how is that not a barew... omg... mind blown
19:16	masak	:D
19:17	masak	yes, that's two calls to &f
19:17	benabik	nom: sub f { 'g' }; sub g { say 'in g' }; say &::(f)()
19:17	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«in g␤Bool::True␤»
19:18		abercrombie joined #perl6
19:19		uvtc joined #perl6
19:21	uvtc	soh_cah_toa, masak : I also had problems building perl6/book, though I don't recall the specifics. IIRC, there were a number of font dependencies (one even involving installing "acrobat" I think).
19:22	uvtc	I'd begun making some minor fixes, but then when I couldn't build it, got sidetracked and then didn't come back to it.
19:32		kaare_ joined #perl6
19:36		Reaganomicon joined #perl6
19:58	sorear	good * #perl6
20:00	soh_cah_toa	is anybody willing to add a new module to modules.perl6.org? i don't know how and i don't have commit access to panda anyway
20:00	soh_cah_toa	https://github.com/soh-cah-toa/p6-irc-utils
20:01	sorear	masak: I have read pretty much everything by Aaronson and Yudkowsky, iirc.
20:02	sorear	<3 intuititionistic logic
20:04	masak	:)
20:04	* masak	looks up Yudkowsky
20:04	flussence	soh_cah_toa: will do (unless someone else is already doing it)
20:04	masak	oh, Less Wrong.
20:04	soh_cah_toa	flussence: great, thanks
20:05	dalek	ecosystem: 1f45c21 \| flussence++ \| META.list:
20:05	dalek	ecosystem: Add soh_cah_toa++'s p6-irc-utils to modules list
20:05	dalek	ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosy[…]commit/1f45c21b72
20:06	soh_cah_toa	yay \o/
20:06	flussence	(it takes a while for the site to update, don't panic)
20:06	soh_cah_toa	yeah
20:13		whiteknight joined #perl6
20:14	mberends	hi sorear: your last help worked, initial sprintf() pushed. Next question: how can I cause a die() to happen from C# ?
20:14		[Coke] joined #perl6
20:17		y3llow joined #perl6
20:18		pothos_ joined #perl6
20:19	sorear	mberends: throw new NieczaException("Error message")
20:19	dalek	niecza: c873f75 \| sorear++ \| src/STD.pm6:
20:19	dalek	niecza: Import TimToady's empty listop checks
20:19	dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/c873f755f4
20:19	mberends	sorear: thanks again
20:20		tty234 joined #perl6
20:26	soh_cah_toa	http://nopaste.snit.ch/75492
20:26	soh_cah_toa	i'm having some problems using regexes. i'd be really happy if somebody could look at that nopaste
20:27	diakopter	.
20:27	phenny	diakopter: 09:01Z <sorear> tell diakopter frown you've checked in half a megabyte of versions of lib/Solution/Niecza/Niecza.pidb. Is it really necessary to have this file under version control? It looks like debug information to me.
20:27	diakopter	k
20:28	masak	soh_cah_toa: I'm not aware that you can do subrule calls inside charclasses like that.
20:28		im2ee_ joined #perl6
20:28	benabik	soh_cah_toa: It looks like complex matches _`-^\|\{}[] as a string, not any single element of that string.
20:28	soh_cah_toa	damn
20:29	masak	it's an interesting question whether an interpolated string would work. I don't know.
20:30		colomon joined #perl6
20:30	masak	colomon! \o/
20:31	colomon	o/
20:31	* colomon	has barely survived two days of giving music workshops and "A Day Out With Thomas" (the Tank Engine)
20:34	masak	glad you survived.
20:34		pernatiy joined #perl6
20:40		pernatiy joined #perl6
20:43	sorear	colomon!
20:50		mj41 joined #perl6
20:53		Mowah joined #perl6
20:53		envi joined #perl6
20:54	sorear	niecza: say "x" eq any<x y z>
20:54	p6eval	niecza v8-59-gc873f75: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤The 'any' listop may not be called without arguments (please use () or whitespace to clarify) at /tmp/f2TGqt2E6E line 1:â�¤------> say "x" eq anyâ��<x y z>â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤ at /home/p6eval/â€¦
20:54	TimToady	\o/
20:54	phenny	TimToady: 09:19Z <sorear> tell TimToady your problem was you used "multi" for the operators. Precedence needs to apply to the entire sub, not specific candidates
20:54	phenny	TimToady: 09:20Z <sorear> tell TimToady (that said, niecza doesn't know how to propagate traits from proto to dispatch either - precedence will only work on "only" subs)
20:54	phenny	TimToady: 09:42Z <sorear> tell TimToady In your last std commit, what's the comment about P5isms and P6isms about?
20:54	sorear	scratch the last one, I figured it out
20:54	TimToady	nodnod
20:54	sorear	however I'm still wondering about how to map it into traits
20:55	sorear	is error-no-args(1), is error-no-args(2) feels wrong
20:55	TimToady	it's like <i> and <b> instead of <em> etc
20:56	TimToady	is 'p5-defaulting' is more like
20:56	sorear	nah, it's more like J's insanity of spelling sin cos and tan(of x) 1 o. x, 2 o. x, and 3 o. x respectively
20:56	masak	o.O
20:56	masak	I'd just like to point out that <i> and <b> are not deprecated. just scaled back. :)
20:57	TimToady	no, I mean 1 would be "is defaulting-in-p5" and 2 is something else
20:57	TimToady	is error-prone :)
20:58	TimToady	is constructor-that-makes-little-sense-empty
20:58	TimToady	something semantic
20:58	TimToady	I'm agreeing that 1 and 2 is quite wrongish
20:59	TimToady	"Never put magic numbers into your program except 0 and 1--and we're not sure about 1."
21:00	TimToady	std: any<foo bar>
21:00	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 118m␤»
21:00	TimToady	/o\
21:06	TimToady	<i> stands for "intense" and <b> for <bombastic> :)
21:06	TimToady	oops, failure of parallelism...
21:07	masak	<:)>
21:07	diakopter	std: <>
21:07	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Unsupported use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() to read input,â�¤ or ('') to represent the null string,â�¤ or () to represent Nil at /tmp/_Qx6weLjZw line 1:â�¤------> <â��>â�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:01 117mâ�¤Â»â€¦
21:07	masak	std: <STDIN>
21:07	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Unsupported use of <STDIN>; in Perl 6 please use $*IN.lines at /tmp/tzo8JKSYEc line 1:â�¤------> <â��STDIN>â�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:01 117mâ�¤Â»
21:08	mberends	TimToady++ # :-) (magic numbers)--
21:08	TimToady	niecza: WHAT
21:08	p6eval	niecza v8-59-gc873f75: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤The 'WHAT' listop may not be called without arguments (please use () or whitespace to clarify) at /tmp/1uRXmBm00D line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> WHATâ��<EOL>â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤ at /home/p6eval/nieczâ€¦
21:08	TimToady	I remember feeling guilty for lumping WHAT et al. in with the p5 ops at first
21:09	TimToady	glad there's now a category of p6 listops that are suspicious of 0 args
21:09	TimToady	I suppose it could be argued that all empty listops should require parens
21:10	masak	well, it could be argued... :(
21:10	TimToady	but then there's things like: constant ∅ = set;
21:11	TimToady	(probably won't work though)
21:11	TimToady	niecza: constant ∅ = set;
21:11	p6eval	niecza v8-59-gc873f75: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Malformed constant at /tmp/V9Hacl6paN line 1:â�¤------> constant â��âˆ… = set;â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
21:11	TimToady	yeah, ∅ isn't alphanumeric
21:12	TimToady	not sure whether we should make it a little easier to define terms that aren't alpha without resorting to term:<∅>
21:12	TimToady	hmm
21:12	TimToady	niecza: constant term:<∅> = set;
21:12	p6eval	niecza v8-59-gc873f75: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Colonpair traits NYI at /tmp/sbzjHPP69u line 1:â�¤------> constant term:<âˆ…> â��= set;â�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤ 'set' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.settinâ€¦
21:12	TimToady	that might be allowed, I suppose
21:13	TimToady	biab &
21:29	dalek	niecza: c7ebb88 \| diakopter++ \| lib/Solution/Niecza/Niecza.pidb:
21:29	dalek	niecza: delete Niecza.pidb
21:29	dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/c7ebb8897b
21:30	masak	perl6: .= uc
21:30	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near ".= uc"␤»
21:30	p6eval	..niecza v8-59-gc873f75: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix .= instead at /tmp/52QNJfe_3L line 1:â�¤------> <BOL>â��.= ucâ�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
21:30	p6eval	..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected " uc"␤ expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", "^", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript␤ at /tmp/cWbICO4N71 line 1, column 3␤»
21:30	masak	ok, fair enough :)
21:30	benabik	nom: .=uc
21:30	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«Method 'uc' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤ in method dispatch:<.=> at src/gen/CORE.setting:619␤ in <anon> at /tmp/72oTo6YIOt:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/72oTo6YIOt:1␤␤»
21:30	benabik	Hm. perl6 doesn't run nom?
21:31	masak	indeed not.
21:31	benabik	nom: .= uc
21:31	p6eval	nom 184833: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near ".= uc"␤»
21:31	benabik	Without a space it's a mutating method call on $_. With, it gets confused.
21:32	dalek	niecza: 9e4b0e4 \| (Martin Berends)++ \| lib/Solution/Niecza/Niecza.pidb:
21:32	dalek	niecza: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:sorear/niecza
21:32	dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/9e4b0e43fc
21:36	sorear	mberends: reviewing your code for diakopter... I'm wondering why you chose to make an intermediate list of PrintfFormat objects instead of fusing the loops.
21:38	mberends	sorear: it was for recent hysterical raisins, we divided the coding into two halves and the PrintFormat list was the interface between them
21:39	* flussence	is coming to a realisation that I'm implementing Pod::To::HTML in an insane way
21:39	flussence	(there's tree-walking stuff, and various types of stringification, and I'm trying to squish them all into the same place...)
21:41	mberends	sorear: with hindsight, we can refactor it and merge the parts. It was a mainly to enable two developers to work relatively independently.
21:42	flussence	seen tadzik
21:42	aloha	tadzik was last seen in #perl6 11 hours ago joining the channel.
21:43	mberends	sorear: that will happen, there are many features NYI, even though it now passes all the spectests. Adding more sprintf spectests would be nice LHF for someone.
21:43	lue	hello planet o/
21:44	mberends	o/
21:46	flussence	mberends: there's a grammar for sprintf in the specs. masak++ suggested to me a while ago that there's a way to make GGE generate all combinations of valid strings for it, I didn't really get anywhere with it though.
21:46	masak	if there's any way I can help...
21:46	masak	there's a gist shows how to do it.
21:47	flussence	.oO( the grammar's only about 5 lines, I probably could've done it using X~ )
21:48	flussence	.oO( wouldn't have been as cool though... )
21:48	lue	[compiling rakudo/parrot locally, hoping it works...]
21:49	mberends	flussence: thanks, I saw it in S32::Str. I'd like to see the generated combinations, or perhaps add the generator to the test script. Otoh, many possibly redundant tests will only slow down development.
21:51		mjreed joined #perl6
21:52	mberends	.oO( we need a 'make slowtest' for people with excess CPU capacity )
21:53	mjreed	Is there a way yet to import a module/file in Rakudo 11.04? If so, what is it? Both 'use' and 'import' yield complaints about undefined subroutines.
21:55	masak	mjreed: er.
21:55	masak	'use' has been implemented since 2008, I think.
21:56	masak	hence modules.perl.org
21:56	mberends	mjreed: try it with 'use Test;' to determine whether the problem is with your built Rakudo or your module. Rakudo's 'use' definitely works.
21:56	masak	er, modules.perl6.org
21:56	mjreed	use Test; returns _block85, so I guess that works.
21:57	sorear	mberends: make stresstest I think it's called
21:57	masak	yes, that's just the REPL.
21:57	sorear	mberends: several test files are blacklisted from 'spectest' for being too slow.
21:58	mjreed	Ok, so it's not finding the module, I guess. In which case I shall simply note that "Could not find sub &use" is an LTA error message. :)
21:58	mberends	sorear: thanks, I remember now
21:58	sorear	masak: any comment about my comment about proof systems, testing, and designed-in redundany?
21:58	flussence	rakudo: use nonexistent-module
21:58	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to find module 'nonexistent-module' in the @INC directories.␤(@INC contains:␤ lib␤ /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤ /home/p6eval//p2/lib/parrot/3.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤ .)␤»
21:58	sorear	rakudo: use Test ();
21:58	p6eval	rakudo a55346: ( no output )
21:59	mjreed	rakudo: use 'nonexistent-module';
21:59	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &use␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/h3EWFfEQaz␤»
22:00	mjreed	so since I passed a string it was trying to call 'use' on that string..
22:00	lue	rakudo: require 'nonexistent-module'; # just curious
22:00	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Unable to find module 'nonexistent-module' in the @INC directories.␤(@INC contains:␤ lib␤ /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤ /home/p6eval//p2/lib/parrot/3.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤ .)␤ in main program body at line 26:src/Perl6/Module/Loader.pm␤»
22:00	mjreed	Oddly, it's not failing for nonexistent modules for me, though.
22:02	mjreed	rather, 'use' is, but 'import' isn't. sorry.
22:02	masak	blog post! http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]dash-n-and-dash-p
22:03	mjreed	Yay!
22:03	mjreed	Nitpick: "There's a -p flag that also does the loop thing, but it prints $_ at the end of the loop:" - "at the end of the loop" sounds like it doesn't print until it's done with the whole file.
22:04	masak	it does indeed. fixing.
22:04	mjreed	""at the end of each time through the loop", maybe, if you want to avoid scaring people with the "iteration" word. :)
22:04	masak	I don't want to avoid that ;)
22:05	TimToady	mind you, the way rakudo does it isn't how it's specced either :)
22:06	masak	indeed.
22:06	masak	I just want -n and -p more than I want to wait for the correctest solution.
22:06	TimToady	I though you was gonna talk about settings when I +1'd it
22:06	masak	sorry :P
22:06	TimToady	*thought
22:07	TimToady	and you got my hopes up by talking about "elegance"
22:07	masak	no, I just like that Rakudo deals with ASTs where Perl 5 deals with text.
22:07	masak	to me, that is elegance! :)
22:07	TimToady	is it elegant to muck with ASTs when you can have quasi?
22:07	TimToady	that's what alternate settings really are
22:08		molaf joined #perl6
22:08	TimToady	with the YOU_ARE_HERE being the quasi-unquote
22:08	* flussence	unfortunately knows enough about php to remember that it does the same sort of thing as p5 there, for double quote interpolation
22:08	* lue	marvels at the existence of an 'eskimo operator'
22:09	mberends	masak++: those kissing Eskimos look so much like Bobby Tables :)
22:09	masak	mberends: aye.
22:10	mberends	they're cousins, I'll bet
22:10	masak	or circles.
22:10	masak	TimToady: maybe I'll have to write a followup post, then, where I talk about settings. ;)
22:11	TimToady	hygienic macros are kinda like black holes, and our entire UNITverse is inside one
22:12	benabik	--setting=-p ?
22:13	lue	mberends: you mean little Robert'); DROP TABLE Students; ?
22:13	masak	TimToady: when jnthn and I were strolling around Riga on the last day, we realized that quasiquotes will have to do funny things with all kinds of declarations.
22:14	masak	oh, I wrote a gist about that, didn't I?
22:14	mberends	lue++ # http://xkcd.com/327/
22:14	masak	https://gist.github.com/1156662
22:14	lue	I actually had to check that to remember exactly what his name was.
22:15	masak	well, they call him "little Bobby Tables" ;)
22:15	jlaire	.u ◌
22:15	phenny	U+25CC DOTTED CIRCLE (◌)
22:15	masak	'night, #perl6
22:15	TimToady	but what is his name called?
22:16	lue	TimToady: a hilarious prank
22:16	masak	nice, humpty-dumpty.
22:16	flussence	I feel guilty for ever posting this :( - http://stackoverflow.com/quest[…]ngs/538467#538467
22:16	lue	g'night masak o/
22:17	jlaire	flussence: interesting...
22:17	mjreed	flussence: wow, just when I thought I'd run out of new php "quirks" to discover...
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22:31	TimToady	sorear++, added precedence to operators in http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Ternary_logic#Perl_6
22:37	soh_cah_toa	perl6: my @foo = "\x01".."\xff"
22:38	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
22:38	p6eval	..pugs: ( no output )
22:38	p6eval	..niecza v8-62-g9e4b0e4: OUTPUTÂ«(timeout)Potential difficulties:â�¤ @foo is declared but not used at /tmp/BVXQGsdn_x line 1:â�¤------> my â��@foo = "\x01".."\xff"â�¤â�¤Â»
22:38	TimToady	use ... for that, for now
22:38	TimToady	not ..
22:38	soh_cah_toa	perl6: my @foo = "\x01"..."\xff"
22:38	p6eval	niecza v8-62-g9e4b0e4: OUTPUTÂ«Potential difficulties:â�¤ @foo is declared but not used at /tmp/HpuDVXunnA line 1:â�¤------> my â��@foo = "\x01"..."\xff"â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ord in class Strâ�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1760 (CORâ€¦
22:38	p6eval	..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "\"\\"␤ expecting operator, "," or term postfix␤ at /tmp/pwap9eEPoK line 1, column 20␤»
22:38	p6eval	..rakudo a55346: ( no output )
22:39	TimToady	perl6: my @foo = "\x01"..."\xff"; say @foo.elems;
22:39	p6eval	niecza v8-62-g9e4b0e4: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ord in class Str␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1760 (CORE C789_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1795 (CORE C822_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line…
22:39	p6eval	..rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«255␤»
22:39	p6eval	..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "\"\\"␤ expecting operator, "," or term postfix␤ at /tmp/cspXWRZJK4 line 1, column 20␤»
22:41	soh_cah_toa	oh yeah, i think i brought that up before. '..' should be promoted to '...' but isn't
22:41	soh_cah_toa	forgot that
22:42	soh_cah_toa	i wouldn't have to worry about that at all if escape sequences worked in character classes :(
22:42	TimToady	yeah
22:42	soh_cah_toa	waiting for qregex
22:44	TimToady	niecza: $_ = "foo\n"; say ~/<-[\0..\x1f]>*/
22:44	p6eval	niecza v8-62-g9e4b0e4: OUTPUT«Regex()<instance>␤»
22:44	TimToady	niecza: $_ = "foo\n"; say ~ ($_ ~~ /<-[\0..\x1f]>*/)
22:44	p6eval	niecza v8-62-g9e4b0e4: OUTPUT«foo␤»
22:44	TimToady	looks like they work in niecza
22:45	soh_cah_toa	yeah
22:46	soh_cah_toa	oh that reminds me, what's the difference between <-alpha> and <!alpha>? not just alpha but any rule. S05 mentions it briefly but i don't really understand it
22:46	flussence	I think !'s an assertion...
22:46	TimToady	- has a width of . while ! has 0 width
22:46	soh_cah_toa	oh right, it's not captured in the match object
22:47	TimToady	it's just a lookahead
22:47	TimToady	<-foo> is really <!foo>. <-- including the dot
22:48	soh_cah_toa	ah, i didn't notice the '.' in /<!before <alpha>> ./ so i thought there was a typo ;)
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22:49	soh_cah_toa	alright, got it
22:51	soh_cah_toa	another p6 question: what's does ::T specify? i see it a lot in subroutine signatures
22:51	TimToady	captures the type of the argument en passant
22:51	TimToady	and gives it a name T
22:52	TimToady	it's a bit of genericity writ small
22:52	soh_cah_toa	is that just when it's ::T or ::anything? like ::Date
22:52	TimToady	anything
22:53	TimToady	:: is sort of a pseudo-sigil
22:53	soh_cah_toa	would it be safe to say they're like c++ templates or java's generics?
22:54	TimToady	or maybe the other way around :)
22:54	TimToady	we've been working on roles for a long time...
22:57	soh_cah_toa	so since you can specify anything after the ::, that means that ::Real $epsilon does not mean $epsilon is of type Real. is just happens to be the same name as the type Real?
22:57	TimToady	you've just shadowed the name "Real", since the real Real is in an outer lexical scope
22:57	soh_cah_toa	got it
22:57	TimToady	and you could still get at it with OUTER::Real, presumably, or CORE::Real
22:59	soh_cah_toa	rakudo: sub foo(::T $a) { say $a.WHAT.perl }; foo('foobar')
22:59	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Str␤»
22:59	soh_cah_toa	rakudo: sub foo(::BlahBlahBlah $a) { say $a.WHAT.perl }; foo(42)
23:00	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Int␤»
23:00	soh_cah_toa	cool
23:00	TimToady	rakudo: sub foo(::T $a) { say T.perl }; foo(42)
23:00	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Int␤»
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23:00	soh_cah_toa	yeah, that's the same thing then. i see
23:01	TimToady	rakudo: sub foo(::T $a, T $b) { say T.perl }; foo(42,'oops')
23:01	p6eval	rakudo a55346: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$b'␤ in 'foo' at line 22:/tmp/x7D1RKu_nw␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/x7D1RKu_nw␤»
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23:03	TimToady	nap &
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