IRC log for #perl6, 2011-09-01

Time	Nick	Message
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02:12	lue	what the heck is @@w supposed to mean? I remember reading not too long ago something about @@ and slices, but I don't know anything beyond that.
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03:04	dalek	mu: 1df6eb2 \| lue++ \| examples/functional/ (7 files):
03:04	dalek	mu: [examples] fixed most of examples/functional to work with rakudo/nom
03:04	dalek	mu:
03:04	dalek	mu: The entirety of the fixes include making sure functions returned
03:04	dalek	mu: Bool values when they said they would, flattening where it would
03:04	dalek	mu: otherwise cause infinite recursion, and avoiding redeclaration of
03:04	dalek	mu: variables (how that managed to happen is beyond me). Only monads.pl
03:04	dalek	mu: was untouched, due to an NYI error about typed arrays.
03:04	dalek	mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/1df6eb2584
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03:44	natureboy	hi swarles :]
03:48	swarles	hey =]
03:57	sorear	hello and welcome, natureboy and swarles.
03:58	natureboy	hello, thanks
03:59	mberends	\o
04:01	TimToady	»ö«
04:02	sorear	lue: @@x sounds like something from the Dark Age of Pugs, perhaps 2003
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04:03	TimToady	was a little later than that
04:03	swarles	hello o/
04:04	TimToady	perl6: say "Howdy doody!"
04:04	p6eval	pugs, rakudo 2bac6a, niecza v9-7-g252c6a5: OUTPUT«Howdy doody!␤»
04:05	mberends	▷☋◁
04:05	TimToady	a frog with fins?
04:06	mberends	Iron Butterfly
04:06	TimToady	looks kinda like a bat
04:07	sorear	.u ☋
04:07	phenny	U+260B DESCENDING NODE (☋)
04:09	sorear	bleh
04:09	sorear	.net's async IO model is very un-POSIX-like
04:09	sorear	they have Select but it's sockets only
04:10	sorear	other kinds of file descriptors use a stateful request/callback system
04:11	sorear	natureboy: swarles: anything we can help you with?
04:11	swarles	Nope I'm just here to watch/listern :)
04:11	swarles	listen*
04:11	TimToady	⊱ö⊰
04:12	TimToady	⊱⍥⊰
04:12	* sorear	has little idea what kind of interface to present to Perl 6
04:13	natureboy	not really, but thanks sorear
04:15	TimToady	⊱⚉⊰
04:15	TimToady	decomputing &
04:15	natureboy	is that supposed to look like "Camelia" ?
04:16	TimToady	vaguely
04:16	mberends	Campelia
04:18	mberends	sorear: structuring async I/O around callbacks would be useful, to unify with other NCI events (eg GUI input)
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04:29	* lue	severely detests Google's refusal to search symbols essential to any programmer's diet.
04:31	sorear	mberends: I think I'm going to shift my month focus to general CLR integration and let someone else worry about API design.
04:32	sorear	I don't like API design.
04:32	mberends	lue: you should look beyond Google, even if only to resist the creation of another kind of monopoly
04:32	sorear	you should detest Google for other reasons.
04:33	mberends	sorear: I'll gladly participate in API bikeshedding, but would like to work mainly with example use cases.
04:34	lue	I got NoScript to stop Google from the stupid "guess what you want as you're typing" when they brought it to the SSL version. [It severely slows down my connection and makes Google think I'm using a bot to do mass searches!]
04:34	* lue	investigates other search engines
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04:43	mberends	sorear: I'm very happy that you'll work on CLR integration instead. If you you devise something that goes beyond Zavolaj's NativeCall, it will create many application opportunities for Niecza and throw out a challenge for Rakudo to catch up. Therefore I hope you can make it as VM agnostic as possible.
04:47	mberends	lue: I'm not sure 'wormhole' is the best choice of word, could you help me with some possible improvements? https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]docs/compiler.pod
04:50	* lue	looks
04:54	mberends	that sentence reads better with "Perl 6 virtual world" and "executable real world" as well
04:55	lue	instead of wormhole, maybe passageway? [also, I noticed this: "How is the Niecza compiler babby formed?" Are you sure it's babby? ]
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04:57	mberends	lue: yes, I'm sure. I was hoping for something more cosmic, to spice up the text. 'bridge' is too mundane, 'stargate' too exotic.
04:58	lue	.oO(gateway perhaps?)
04:59	mberends	yes, better. how about portal?
04:59	sorear	rabbit-hole.
05:00	mberends	yes, quite nice
05:01	lue	I like rabbit-hole, reminds me of Alice in Wonderland (where CLR is real life, and P6 is Wonderland, according to your analogy)
05:01	mberends	no, implies similar worlds too much, like wormhole
05:01	mberends	oh, the looking-glass!
05:01	sorear	it's not really like a boundary between P6 and real life
05:02	sorear	and as I said yesterday, rawscall has nothing to do with system calls
05:02	sorear	the "s" stands for "static"
05:02	sorear	"rawcall" calls instance methods, "rawscall" calls class methods
05:03	mberends	oh, I missed that totally
05:03	sorear	CLR makes the distinction
05:03	mberends	I'd kinda mapped VM to system
05:05	mberends	ok, that will get a rewrite. I'm really attracted to 'looking-glass', I think it triggers appropriate thoughts.
05:06	sorear	DownCall/UpCall is kind of like a wormhole, it's a portal through time
05:06	sorear	it allows code compiled using last month's Niecza to call code compiled using the current Niecza, and vice versa (for eval)
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05:08	mberends	I assumed that was only during the bootstrap compile, and that in the next iteration of recompile the versions of caller and callee would be in sync.
05:09	sorear	mberends: it would be possible to do it that way, and the release binaries are set up that way
05:09	mberends	I like the time travel viewpoint of the bootstrap, that might be worth mentioning more explicitly.
05:09	sorear	mberends: but for development I only want to build niecza once, which means that "self-compiled" is a bad idea
05:10	sorear	in ghc/gcc parlance builds from source are always stage1s
05:10	mberends	aye, I hacked on Small-C many years ago and had the same self-hosting stability risks
05:11	sorear	... "Small-C"? haven't heard of that in ages.
05:12	mberends	by James Hendrix, an excellent learning tool
05:12	sorear	most of the "stability" problems went away when niecza started running roast
05:12	sorear	I don't fear that I'm rebooting with a broken niecza
05:13	mberends	yes, testing++
05:20	sorear	mberends: hrm, I wonder then if CLR interop should be more like Zavolaj or Blizkost
05:21	mberends	sorear: so far I've preferred Zavolaj because it's more explicitly declarative
05:21	TimToady	literal but non-portable interfaces are okay for building portability layers on top of
05:23	mberends	sorear: Zavolaj is independent on what lies beyond, for example hooking up PostgreSQL was a breeeze.
05:26	mberends	of, breeze even
05:26	sorear	mberends: preferred Zavolaj over...?
05:27	mberends	sorear: Blizkost, the other option you mentioned for 'interop like'
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05:29	sorear	mberends: yeah just wondering where you would have the option to use both
05:29	sorear	and goodnight.
05:29	mberends	'night
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05:51	mberends	phenny, tell sorear we have the option to use Zavolaj or Blizkost generally when a Perl 5 module abstracts a native library, for example a PostgreSQL or MySQL client. I preferred independence from the effect a Perl 5 layer might have on what is available to the Perl 6 code. In short, call direct. The question for the Niecza interop design is whether you can _always_ interrogate native code to tell you its methods and parameters, or not. I don't think
05:51	mberends	you can.
05:51	phenny	mberends: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
06:03	mberends	phenny, tell sorear otoh, CLR is easier to deal with than native code because CLR has Reflection. Calling from Niecza to native code involves jumping through two hoops, CLR and FFI. We don't want the solution to look like Perl 5 XS.
06:03	phenny	mberends: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
06:06	lue	oh! I was reading up more on the capture sigil (¢) ooc, and found an irc log discussion mentioning ¢'s supposed alternative (@%) used to be @@. So, does that mean @@ is just ¢ ?
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06:08	perlhack	用中文像大家问好
06:08	perlhack	各位辛苦了
06:08	perlhack	：-）
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06:28	tadzik	good mornings
06:30	tadzik	man, HPatMoR chapters are coming out at insane pace
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07:15	tadzik	rakudo: class A { has $!b; submethod BUILD { say $!b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
07:15	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
07:23	pmichaud	I think the new standard is that private attributes aren't automatically initialized that way.
07:24	pmichaud	(nom implements the new version, ng had the old one)
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07:25	pmichaud	S12:882
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07:28	tadzik	rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
07:28	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
07:28	tadzik	doesn't seem so, unless I miss something
07:28	pmichaud	I think "rakudo:
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07:29	pmichaud	I think "rakudo:" now refers to nom.
07:29	tadzik	yes, that's what I'm hoping for
07:29	pmichaud	ng: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
07:29	pmichaud	b: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
07:29	p6eval	b a55346: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
07:29	tadzik	b needs callsame for that, I believe
07:29	tadzik	b: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { callsame; say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
07:29	p6eval	b a55346: OUTPUT«5␤»
07:30	pmichaud	b: class A { has $!b; submethod BUILD { say $!b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
07:30	p6eval	b a55346: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
07:30	tadzik	that doesn't help nom though
07:30	pmichaud	well, in nom's case you're overriding BUILD, so you don't get the default BUILD
07:31	tadzik	rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { callsame; say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5)
07:31	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
07:31	tadzik	no, something else's broken
07:33	pmichaud	rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD($!b) { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5)
07:33	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤ in submethod BUILD at /tmp/WM9GqkKeFO:1␤ in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:483␤ in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:473␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:458␤ in <anon> at /tmp/WM…
07:34	pmichaud	rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD(:$!b) { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5)
07:34	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«5␤»
07:34	pmichaud	hmmmmmmmmmm
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07:41	tadzik	I don't like it, again :)
07:42	tadzik	I believe BUILD { say $!b } used to Just Work in nom some time ago
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07:56	moritz	\o
07:56	tadzik	o\
07:56	moritz	doesn't that need to be BUILD(:$!b) { say $!b } ?
07:57	tadzik	I hope not. I don't like easy things hard to do
07:57	tadzik	I think I'm missing a being
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07:57	perlhack	hi
07:57	tadzik	hi perlhack
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08:02	perlhack	hello tadzik,i am ready to get off duty.i wish you have fun.
08:05	woosley	what is BUILD used for? just like BUILD in Moose?
08:06	tadzik	woosley: I hope it to be, but it seems that it's a different magic
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08:09	woosley	tadzik: so what is the magic here?
08:10	tadzik	woosley: it doesn't work as expected :) The attributes aren't neceserilly set in your BUILD, you may have to do that yourself. I mean, those passed to the .new
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08:33	mberends	phenny, tell pmichaud the next timing accuracy improvement in Test.pm will be to move $time_before and $time_after assignments out from proclaim() to ok(), is*(), diag() etc, because some of those do lots of work before calling proclaim(). There should be negligible performance impact, but I'd like your opinion before proceeding. Also, there will probably be a few sub-microsecond times soon. We could record nanoseconds instead of microseconds (I pref
08:33	phenny	mberends: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
08:33	mberends	er integers), even though clocks do not have nanosecond resolution (yet).
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08:41	eiro	hello all
08:42	tadzik	hello eiro
08:42	eiro	i'm trying to use the comments of arguments for doc (http://pastebin.com/cYwvCGxj)
08:43	eiro	it sends me the message: ===SORRY!===
08:43	eiro	Whitespace character is not allowed as a delimiter at line 4, near " one of CR"
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08:43	eiro	hello tadzik. i was trying to write my first IA for the farm game.
08:44	eiro	AI
08:45	eiro	actually it's more like IS (artificial stupidity)
08:47	moritz	well, natural stupidity we have more than enough :-)
08:49	tadzik	eiro: docs for signatures are NYI
08:49	tadzik	I may poke that soon, since someone actually needs this :)
08:51	lue	docs for signatures? What's that? [Or rather, which spec would tell me about it, if it's too long to explain here]
08:54	eiro	moritz, i can't just plug my brain to parrot :)
08:54	eiro	tadzik, NYI ?
08:55	moritz	NYI = Not Yet Implemented
08:55	eiro	arg :)
08:55	eiro	ok thanks
08:55	moritz	lue: S26 allows attaching doc strings to just about anything
08:57	lue	ohh, now that I know we're talking about doc strings, I can figure out exactly what docs for signatures are.
09:00	lue	.oO(could you attach doc strings to doc strings?)
09:01	mberends	lue: :) don't go there...
09:02	tadzik	why, yes you can :)
09:02	lue	.oO(#=this is a doc string explaining method foo of class xyzzy. Its purpose is to tell you the purpose of foo)
09:03	tadzik	rakudo: https://gist.github.com/1185757
09:03	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Array.new("doc #= double doc")␤»
09:03	tadzik	documented documentation :)
09:05	lue	oooh, I didn't know p6eval took files
09:06	* tadzik	lives
09:08	lue	I won't for much longer if I don't go to bed. Good night everyone o/
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09:33	im2ee	Could I find somewhere modules which are build in Perl6?
09:33	im2ee	Like IO::Socket ? :)
09:34	mberends	im2ee: IO::Socket in built in to Rakudo itself. Modules are here: http://modules.perl6.org/
09:35	im2ee	I know modules.perl6.org. So, there is no site about modules which are build in to Rakudo? :)
09:38	mberends	im2ee: avoid confusion, what is built into Rakudo is not modules. The complete set of Synopses describes what should be built in http://perlcabal.org/syn/ and this is the progress so far: http://perl6.org/compilers/features
09:39	im2ee	mberends, ok. Thank You! :)
09:40	mberends	im2ee: IO::Socket is specified in http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/IO.html
09:40	im2ee	Great. :)
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09:42	mberends	im2ee: examples of IO:Socket are https://github.com/cosimo/perl6-lwp-simple and https://github.com/mberends/http-server-simple
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09:43	im2ee	mberends, thanks again. :)
09:43	mberends	have lots of fun! :)
09:48	mberends	finally, a 6model/c raw list implementation is free of memory leaks according to valgrind. Next up, a bigger test suite :)
09:50	im2ee	Hmm, some more questions. :)
09:50	im2ee	What about threading in Perl6? :)
09:50	im2ee	Using fork, or some modules?
09:51	im2ee	And... does exist something like DO (from p5)?
09:51	im2ee	:
09:51	im2ee	:)
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09:54	mberends	im2ee: not much implemented yet, your can use run('command') or qx(command). I think Niecza has some threading support but not Rakudo. I did create this example using Zavolaj: https://github.com/jnthn/zavol[…]ples/unix-fork.p6
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09:57	mberends	im2ee: oops, qx/command/
09:57	im2ee	hmmm.. No problem in total. :)
09:57	im2ee	I'll be glad to help You with Perl6. :)
09:57	mberends	great! when can you start?
09:58	im2ee	But ... now I must get to know perl6 better. :)
09:58	im2ee	I use Perl5 for 1 y (maybe 2), now I'll learn P6. :)
09:59	im2ee	Hmm, I know C too.
09:59	mberends	oh good, then you may be able to get involved with Parrot as well.
10:00	im2ee	Hm, don't now exactly when - but I would as soon as possible :)
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10:00	im2ee	Where I can find informations about what is to do? :)
10:01	im2ee	mberends, You wrote Zavolaj?
10:02	mberends	im2ee: I am contributor. jnthn++ is the author.
10:03	im2ee	Ok. :)
10:04	im2ee	mberends, Where I can find informations about what is to do? :)
10:05	mberends	im2ee: first make sure that you can use Perl 6, (Rakudo, Niecza or both). The try to create your own module to share with the community. Then try to add a Perl 6 language test to https://github.com/perl6/roast.
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10:06	im2ee	Hmm, is there maybe a site where I can find information abouts who is working on what?
10:07	im2ee	I won't to work on something over which one is working now :)
10:08	mberends	im2ee: not really. I recommend searching the logs of this channel at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/
10:09	mberends	what would you like to work on? maybe I can remember who is interested in similar things.
10:12	moritz	im2ee: people generally publish their work early and often
10:12	moritz	im2ee: so if something isn't on modules.perl6.org, you can be confident nobody has invested too much time in it
10:15	im2ee	Hm, maybe for start on something like IRC bot module, etc.
10:16	im2ee	You know - Im now professional, I hope You it'll be changed ! :)
10:16	im2ee	And I hope You understand, that I'm not professional. :)
10:16	im2ee	Right? :)
10:16	im2ee	Hi moritz :)
10:16	* moritz	is not professional either :-)
10:16	im2ee	:)
10:16	mberends	there are already several people playing with IRC clients, I cannot remember names but that irc log search will find them.
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10:17	im2ee	Hmm, but there is IRC Bot framework, right ? :)
10:17	moritz	right, by TiMBuS++
10:17	im2ee	Net::IRC::Bot
10:17	im2ee	Ok. So .. hm, something else :)
10:18	mberends	other people often ask for modules to build web applications. There are some incomplete frameworks, they need more love.
10:18	TiMBuS	yay im getting attention
10:18	mberends	:)
10:18	moritz	TiMBuS: not you, just your module :-)
10:18	mberends	lol
10:18	TiMBuS	im2ee, feel free to contribute to make my module suck less
10:19	TiMBuS	i never added module unloading support! the whole reason i made it modular
10:19	TiMBuS	thats a good palce to start
10:19	moritz	for example you could write a simple bot, and see if you miss any functionality from the framework
10:19	moritz	or find unintuitive, or so
10:20	mberends	but please don't point a buggy bot at this lovely channel ;)
10:20	TiMBuS	i miss the part where, the bot disconnects if it times out. because i have no async IO or threads >:[
10:20	TiMBuS	mberends, the last bot someone sent here was a barrel of laughs
10:21	mberends	oh yeah
10:21	im2ee	TiMBuS, I don't thing that Your module sucks. :)
10:21	TiMBuS	joke please
10:21	im2ee	think*
10:21	TiMBuS	thanks im2ee! but you can still probably make it better
10:23	im2ee	TiMBuS, makeing irc module will be good lesson for me. :)
10:23	im2ee	Hmm, does my English suck?
10:24	mberends	nope
10:24	TiMBuS	mines worse
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10:25	im2ee	mberends, thanks. :)
10:25	im2ee	TiMBuS, where are You from? :)
10:26	mberends	im2ee: :)
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10:26	TiMBuS	australia.
10:27	im2ee	I must say something. This is the most friendly community that I have ever known. :)
10:28	mberends	im2ee: thank you
10:28	im2ee	No, I thank You. :)
10:28	im2ee	So. :)
10:29	im2ee	I'll learning P6 today. :)
10:29	mberends	im2ee: one small thing, English people write 'you' with a small 'y'
10:29	im2ee	Ok. :)
10:30	mberends	im2ee: have you installed Rakudo or Niecza yet? It seems a logical first step.
10:30	im2ee	I have Rakudo 07.2011
10:31	mberends	good. Then also install Panda, as described on the Modules page.
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10:31	im2ee	i have Panda too. :)
10:31	im2ee	and i installed some modules :)
10:31	mberends	impressive :)
10:32	im2ee	:)
10:32	im2ee	So. I'm on the good way. :)
10:32	im2ee	a instead of the :)
10:32	im2ee	or? :)
10:32	im2ee	nevermind :)
10:33	mberends	I guess a, but nevermind
10:33		saaki joined #perl6
10:35	im2ee	Now, I'll write some code which will help me learn the language.
10:49	daxim	im2e++ for practicality
10:49	mberends	im2ee++ even
10:50	im2ee	:)
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11:06	im2ee	$sock.say("JOIN $chan\r") for @channels -> $chan;
11:06	im2ee	what is wrong? :)
11:12	Trashlord	uh
11:12	Trashlord	for my $chan @channels;
11:13	Trashlord	or
11:13	Trashlord	for my $chan (@channels);
11:14	flussence	maybe $sock.say("JOIN $^chan\r" for @channels);
11:15	im2ee	Works, thanks. :)
11:19	im2ee	write method on IO::Socket::INET is better, isn't it?
11:22		espadrine joined #perl6
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11:23	flussence	.write would be better than mixing an explicit \r and implicit \n...
11:24	im2ee	flussence, thanks :)
11:24	flussence	(having a working &wrap would be better, just make $sock.say do the right thing...)
11:57	pmichaud	good morning, #perl6
11:57	phenny	pmichaud: 08:33Z <mberends> tell pmichaud the next timing accuracy improvement in Test.pm will be to move $time_before and $time_after assignments out from proclaim() to ok(), is*(), diag() etc, because some of those do lots of work before calling proclaim(). There should be negligible performance impact, but I'd like your opinion before proceeding. Also, there will probably be a few sub-microsecond times soon. We could record nanoseconds instead of mic
12:00	pmichaud	mberends: I'll go with your judgement on this one.
12:02	mberends	pmichaud: ok, we'll give it a try. Results so far are encouraging :) I'm curious how Niecza measures up.
12:04	mberends	the delay in is_deeply() is probably huge, and nondeterministic
12:17	bbkr_	rakudo: "aa" ~~ /(a)($0)/; $1.say # bug?
12:17	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«␤»
12:19	moritz	yes
12:19	moritz	rakudo: "aa" ~~ /(a)($0)/; $0.say
12:19	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«a␤»
12:20	* bbkr_	reported
12:20	moritz	bbkr_++
12:40		awoodland joined #perl6
12:42	tadzik	im2ee: good to see you around :)
12:45	PerlJam	good * #perl6
12:46		mtk joined #perl6
12:49		JimmyZ joined #perl6
12:54		jferrero left #perl6
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12:57	im2ee	tadzik, good to see you too. :)
13:00	mls	morning perl6!
13:01	mls	If you're interested whay perl6 does when it compiles the setting: http://www4.informatik.uni-erl[…]oe/Setting.out.gz
13:02	mls	It's in kcachegrind input format
13:05	mls	I've patched parrot's runloop to collect call statistics
13:05	bbkr_	rakudo: sub foo ( /abc/ ) { 1 }; foo( Regex ); # bug with method delegation?
13:05	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use a value type constraints whose value is unknown at compile time at line 1, near ") { 1 }; f"␤»
13:07	bbkr_	std: sub foo ( /abc/ ) { 1 }; # i don't know what kind of monster is it, but STD allows such declaration, therefore foo(Regex) should delegate
13:07	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
13:07	flussence	mls++
13:08	moritz	bbkr_: I think it's a limitation in rakudo's current handling of constraints and literals
13:08	flussence	(seems like the grammar is the slowest part...)
13:09	PerlJam	using grammar is always faster than parsing grammar ;)
13:10	moritz	mls++
13:11	moritz	lineof is the function that takes the most time
13:12	mls	it is?
13:13	mls	I don't see it
13:13	moritz	mls: that's what your report says when I sort by the 'self' column in kcachegrind
13:14	flussence	it's the longest per-call, it only gets called 18k times though
13:14	mls	it takes the most ops, but you can switch to 'cycles'
13:15	flussence	oh, now it makes more sense...
13:15	moritz	mls: do you know what <cycle 7> as a routine name means?
13:15	flussence	(.new looked strangely lightweight before)
13:15	mls	turn off cycle detection
13:16	moritz	ah
13:16	mls	you get a cycle when you do recursion
13:17	moritz	so post_children takes up a lot of time
13:17	moritz	ah, it shows the cycles in in the right window
13:18	* moritz	finally learns how to kcachegrind :-)
13:19	PerlJam	attr gets called a lot
13:20	PerlJam	mls: can you patch rakudo to do the same thing but for perl 6 subs/methods? :)
13:21	flussence	protoregex appears to be where a lot of the slowness in parsing originates
13:21	im2ee	What means Z? (e.g. in @@( <a b> Z <c d> )) And where can I use this? :)
13:21	moritz	im2ee: it's the "zip" operator
13:22	flussence	rakudo: say ('a'..'f' Z 1..6).perl
13:22	moritz	rakudo: say (<a b c> Z 1, 2, 3).perl
13:22	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«(("a", 1), ("b", 2), ("c", 3), ("d", 4), ("e", 5), ("f", 6)).list␤»
13:22	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«(("a", 1), ("b", 2), ("c", 3)).list␤»
13:22		wk joined #perl6
13:24	im2ee	Great! Thanks :)
13:26	flussence	.oO( there's also the XZXZXZX operator, but we don't talk about that one here... )
13:30	arnsholt	But no XYZZY? =)
13:33	PerlJam	we've got Z X R and S I believe so far. Dunno what Y would be.
13:35	PerlJam	oh, and E too
13:36	flussence	E?
13:36	* flussence	only knows the first three
13:36	PerlJam	S03:2152
13:36	flussence	aha
13:37	im2ee	I know only Z :) hah
13:37	im2ee	Everything is waiting for me.
13:45	moritz	http://robey.lag.net/2011/04/3[…]ing-patterns.html # seems the Builder pattern could be replaced entirely with named arguments
13:50	tadzik	my physics is waiting for me, heh
13:51	* moritz	wishes tadzik best of luck
13:51	tadzik	thanks. For now, I need some best of motivation :)
13:52	moritz	rakudo: say (my @motivation).elems
13:52	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:52	moritz	seems motivation is out. Try sense of duty instead.
13:54	tadzik	hmm, will think about it
13:55	tadzik	rakudo: say "charmander".chars
13:55	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«10␤»
13:55	tadzik	I liked "nom:", it was short
13:56	flussence	rakudo: sub prefix:<+~>(Str $s) { $s.chars }; say +~'abcdef';
13:56	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:56	flussence	rakudo: sub prefix:<+~>(Str $s) { $s.chars }; say +~ 'abcdef';
13:56	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:56	flussence	hm
13:57	flussence	rakudo: sub prefix:<+>(Str $s) { $s.chars }; say +'abcdef';
13:57	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«6␤»
13:58	flussence	.oO(if only there was a unicode symbol for "number of chars" I could use there...)
13:58		bluescreen10 joined #perl6
13:59	flussence	std: sub prefix:<+>(&infix<~>:($a, $b)) { } # I wonder...
13:59	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Unable to parse signature at /tmp/ZI_A6jK7jN line 1:â�¤------> sub prefix:<+>â��(&infix<~>:($a, $b)) { } # I wonder...â�¤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/ZI_A6jK7jN line 1:â�¤------> sub prefix:<+>(&infixâ��[â€¦
14:00	flussence	nope, too crazy of an idea :)
14:00	flussence	std: sub prefix:<+>(&infix:<~>:($a, $b)) { }
14:00	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUT«Can't create infix:sym<~>:($a, $b): syntax error at (eval 233) line 18, near "qw<~>:"␤syntax error at (eval 233) line 30, near "qw<~>:"␤␤FAILED 00:01 122m␤»
14:01	flussence	huh, that's the first time I've seen std output an error that didn't end in an ellipsis.
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14:06	moritz	std: 1
14:06	p6eval	std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 117m␤»
14:06	moritz	that was easy :-)
14:08	sorear	good * #perl6
14:08	phenny	sorear: 05:51Z <mberends> tell sorear we have the option to use Zavolaj or Blizkost generally when a Perl 5 module abstracts a native library, for example a PostgreSQL or MySQL client. I preferred independence from the effect a Perl 5 layer might have on what is available to the Perl 6 code. In short, call direct. The question for the Niecza interop design is whether you can _always_ interrogate native code to tell you its methods and parameters, or not
14:08	phenny	sorear: 06:03Z <mberends> tell sorear otoh, CLR is easier to deal with than native code because CLR has Reflection. Calling from Niecza to native code involves jumping through two hoops, CLR and FFI. We don't want the solution to look like Perl 5 XS.
14:10	JimmyZ	good morning, sorear
14:10	moritz	\o
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14:36	mberends	hi sorear. Maybe that should be three hoops - CLR, unmanaged code interop, and then FFI. I'm not sure.
14:38		envi joined #perl6
14:39	mberends	The best way to find out is probably to attempt to create a working example. I think that would take me at least several hours.
14:40	moritz	aren't there CLR-based drivers for most interesting things already?
14:42		[particle]1 joined #perl6
14:48	mberends	yes there are CLR drivers for many things. When designing the overall API, I would prefer not to restrict it that way though. It would be best to be able to access as many different libraries as possible. The most high performance software on Windows is still compiled native (unmanaged) code.
14:50	dalek	niecza: d3b0031 \| sorear++ \| lib/Builtins.cs:
14:50	dalek	niecza: Make sqrt return the principal square root in accordance with the spec
14:50	dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/d3b003195e
14:54		molaf joined #perl6
15:02	sorear	mberends: I'm seeing three general approaches here.
15:02	sorear	"Blizkost like": CLR::System::Console.WriteLine("Hello, World");
15:03	sorear	"Zavolaj like (1)": sub writeLine is clr("System::Console", "WriteLine", "string", "void") { ... }; writeLine("Hello, World")
15:05	sorear	"Zavolaj like (2)": sub puts( Str $x ) is native() { }; puts("Hello, World")
15:07	mberends	sorear: thinking
15:07	sorear	mberends: when you talked about "Zavolaj like", which did you mean?
15:08	sorear	the tricky part of #0 is getting fully automatic type-directed marshalling to work. #1 can use hints
15:08	mberends	sorear: I was thinking of (1)
15:09	mberends	sorear: I like each one for different reasons, almost want to have them all :)
15:10	moritz	how would any of them deal with structs?
15:11	sorear	I guess you could have a Perl 6 object encapsulating a struct
15:11	mberends	moritz: very good point. we probably should sort out a Perl 6 struct spec out first. It's tricky.
15:12	sorear	my $t = CLR::System::DateTime.new(0);
15:12	sorear	$t.AddDays(5);
15:12	sorear	CLR::Some::Class.MethodWhichChangesARefDateTime($t);
15:13	sorear	say $t.ToString();
15:13	TimToady	it sounds like a fancy type-mapping responder interface
15:13	mberends	there is the risk of being pulled into a "CLR Perl 6" mindset
15:13	TimToady	yes, we'd like to avoid becoming Perl#
15:14	flussence	I was thinking of writing a struct role, but I'm waiting for Bufs + pack/unpack to work reasonably in new master first...
15:14	moritz	mberends: I think natively typed attributes bring us a long way there, but it might need a custom metaclass (or at least a trait)
15:15	mberends	structs might have to be specified as a kind of annotation (trait) for opaque data handwave
15:15	mberends	moritz: this connects back to our recent native types discussion
15:16	sorear	TimToady: exactly a responder interface
15:16	* moritz	finds the handwave part particularly interesting
15:16	sorear	ummm, all of you, why are you trying to define structs in Perl 6?
15:17	sorear	I thought the point of this exercise was to access existing code using existing types
15:17	flussence	I want a nice way to mess with arbitrary binary files too
15:17	TimToady	existing code uses structs :)
15:18	sorear	flussence: oh, you said structs, I thought you meant C# structs
15:18	TimToady	and it depends on what you mean by "existing types"
15:18	mberends	talking to SQLite needs structs, that's why Zavolaj cannot atm
15:18	TimToady	S12 talks about structs
15:18	sorear	which have ~nothing to do with C structs
15:18	flussence	I've no idea what C# structs are like, I just assumed everyone meant the C ones :)
15:18	JimmyZ	how about Link-C like?
15:19	TimToady	sorear: the intent is to converge on the C(ish) representation if you use native types
15:19	sorear	TimToady: in the C model, every compilation unit defines the struct, so defining structs in Perl 6 makes sense
15:19	TimToady	S12:702 and S09:129
15:19	sorear	TimToady: C# structs are defined in one place and referred to by reference only
15:20	TimToady	so just different models of unificaiton
15:20	TimToady	*tion
15:21	moritz	TimToady: what I dodn't like about S09:129 is that attributes are meant to be private/internal
15:21	sorear	defining structs in perl 6 code seems to be pointless since we can just refer to the existing structs
15:21	TimToady	moritz: which is what S12:702 is for
15:22	sorear	and moreover, the CLR uses nominal identity - if you define your own struct, it is not equivalent to any predefined struct, and is therefore useless for FFI
15:22	TimToady	sorear: assuming we can do the typemapping without p6-side hints, sure
15:22	moritz	TimToady: which isn't quite the same as saying "the order of attribute declarations within the class matter"
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15:23	TimToady	moritz: and there's issues of alignment too, if you get bored with the order :)
15:23	moritz	TimToady: right
15:23	TimToady	we're just trying to make it possible to get there from here, in a fashion that could be efficient someday
15:24	TimToady	and without having to write more than a minimal amount of glue or even hints
15:24	sorear	how would you write an anonymous bit-field?
15:25	TimToady	by using only the sigil?
15:26	* TimToady	is full of facile answers this morning :)
15:28		jevin joined #perl6
15:29	TimToady	I'm fine with deriving types from external sources though; that's what 'use' is for, after all...
15:30	* JimmyZ	hopes most java projects in apache foundation will be rewritten in perl 6 eventually ;)
15:31	TimToady	and to the extent that XS has taught us anything, it's that it's preferable to have any glue code in one or the other high-level language rather than inventing a 3rd language for it...or at least a 3rd language like XS :)
15:32	TimToady	the other question is when the glue code (if any) is run, and who runs it? Compile time? Use time?
15:32	mberends	TimToady: you answered my question before I had time to finish typing it :)
15:33	TimToady	the Inline modules point toward 'use' type semantics
15:33	TimToady	or BEGIN-time even
15:33	moritz	and afaict they have quite some problems
15:34	moritz	because they want to run a compiler when you 'use' the module, making it slow and prone to permission errors
15:34	TimToady	yes, an internal C/whatever compiler would be less error prone in that sense
15:34	TimToady	we need a language that makes it easy to write parsers :)
15:35		uasi joined #perl6
15:35	TimToady	anyway, not really trying to design it all for you; my job is handwaving :)
15:35		am0c joined #perl6
15:37	TimToady	but I see it as mostly a funny kind of unification problem between two type systems, and the rest is details
15:38	TimToady	maybe I should run for President with a "Yes we can!" motto...
15:38	TimToady	oh wait, been done
15:38	moritz	and it was successful
15:38	* TimToady	apologizes for having his brane in sideways this morning
15:38	moritz	so, good chances for you, TimToady
15:40	* TimToady	hates both parties, so not much chance of it, even if I were suited for the job, which I ain't
15:40	* moritz	would certainly love to see a president who's not hungry for power
15:41	mberends	sorear: do you think you will treat CLR interop and unmanaged code interop as two separate matters, or a single combined one?
15:42	im2ee	Maybe you (or we in future :) ) could make site for Perl6 Developers, where each developers can find informations about - tasks (progress, whats to do, what is not completed)?
15:42	im2ee	Where each developers can write : "I'm working on SOME::MODULE" etc.
15:43	im2ee	He can write about progress etc.
15:43	im2ee	Or it's unnecessary ? :)
15:43	mberends	im2ee: several of our members blog a lot
15:44	TimToady	so far, blogs + github + irc plus project-specific files seems to scale
15:44	tadzik	well, if you examine the irc channel you're on, you'll notice that we tend to know who works on what. Note the #phasers meetings too
15:44	im2ee	Of course, but is it enough mberends ? :)
15:44	TimToady	but it might be possible to find a better organization for that info
15:44	tadzik	http://irclog.perlgeek.de/phasers/2011-08-30
15:45	im2ee	Hm, right - but on this site would be all in one place :)
15:45	TimToady	perlgeek.de is one place
15:45	im2ee	Hm, ok. :)
15:46	TimToady	and there's a sense in which these things evolve organically as needed
15:46	TimToady	it's useful to push such an idea, but if you get too far out in front of the need, then it tends to get bypassed later
15:46	TimToady	we've had lots of bypassed web sites in Perl 6 history
15:47	TimToady	the real trick is to see the need at the point in time where people are ready for it
15:47	im2ee	Ok, i'm new. So i didn't know. :)
15:48	TimToady	well, we need a few visionaires too :)
15:48	TimToady	*aries
15:49	im2ee	:)
15:49	mberends	im2ee: hope that answered your question :)
15:49	TimToady	the people who do best here are the ones who are comfortable both with their head in the clouds and their feet on the ground
15:49	im2ee	Yes. :) Thanks
15:50	TimToady	and don't mind getting rammed by a few birds from time to time :)
15:50	TimToady	sorry, told you my brane was in sideways today
15:51	im2ee	:) no problem
15:51	* TimToady	should go do something useful instead of imagining impossible things before breakfast
15:55	* flussence	leaves this here because I seem to keep forgetting about it - https://gist.github.com/1186468
15:56	tadzik	I like the way you think
15:57	moritz	flussence: the default .new requires hashes
15:57	moritz	flussence: you you probably need my %values = self.^attributes.map(*.name) Z unpack($format, $blob);
15:59	im2ee	moritz, what means ^? (one?)
15:59		cognominal_ joined #perl6
15:59	im2ee	I saw somewhere it today, but where? :) I forget.
15:59	moritz	im2ee: $obj.^method is a method call on the meta class
16:00	moritz	rakudo: say 1.^method(:local)
16:00	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Method 'method' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'␤ in method dispatch:<.^> at src/gen/CORE.setting:615␤ in <anon> at /tmp/0jeuZCIm_i:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/0jeuZCIm_i:1␤␤»
16:00	moritz	rakudo: say 1.^methods(:local)
16:00	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Int Num Rat abs Bridge chr succ pred sqrt base Bool Str␤»
16:00	moritz	these are methods defined in the Int class, of which 1 is an instance
16:00	im2ee	Amazing. :) Thanks
16:04	im2ee	And what means "given"? I can't find it.
16:04	im2ee	"given $attr.type {"
16:05		apejens joined #perl6
16:05	tadzik	it's our switch-case, but better
16:06		pmurias joined #perl6
16:06	tadzik	http://perlcabal.org/syn/S04.h[…]Switch_statements
16:07	im2ee	Thanks! :)
16:07	pmurias	sorear: re C# binding, what i would like to have is the ability to use a C# library without writing bindings for the individual functions even if that means an unperlish interface
16:09	pmurias	OTOH a CPAN module might want to specify a nice perlish interface
16:12		uasi joined #perl6
16:27	pmichaud	re-good morning
16:28	mberends	re-o/
16:28	tadzik	rehey
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16:42	pmichaud	13:05 <mls> I've patched parrot's runloop to collect call statistics
16:42	pmichaud	(1) that's really awesome
16:42	pmichaud	(2) how is it different from Parrot's profiling runloop?
16:42	pmichaud	(other than "it seems to work")
16:47	pmichaud	there's definitely a problem with lineof
16:47	pmichaud	looking.
16:48	pmichaud	....and I bet that problem is directly related to whatever is slowing down our compilation speed
16:49	pmichaud	because if lineof is having these problems, it implies that there are at least 18K source code objects lying about somewhere.
16:49	pmichaud	(although they might not be exactly clones)
16:52	pmichaud	phenny: tell mls would you be able to do the same sort of callgraph analysis for compilation of Rakudo ng's setting?
16:52	phenny	pmichaud: I'll pass that on when mls is around.
16:53	pmichaud	phenny: tell mls it would be really useful to be able to compare the differences between ng and master
16:53	phenny	pmichaud: I'll pass that on when mls is around.
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17:21	dalek	6model: b19eb80 \| (Martin Berends)++ \| c/ (8 files):
17:21	dalek	6model: [6model/c] initial refcount memory manager with tests
17:21	dalek	6model: review: https://github.com/jnthn/6model/commit/b19eb80591
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17:40	im2ee	To write a standard function (like say, print etc.) what i must do?
17:40	im2ee	It depends on Rakudo?
17:41	im2ee	Or something like standard module?
17:43	pmurias	im2ee: what do you mean by a standard function? one which is always avalible in all lexical scopes?
17:44		colomon joined #perl6
17:44	im2ee	Yes. :)
17:45	im2ee	Which is available in every programs written in p6. :)
17:46		ZaphrodZenovka joined #perl6
17:46	TimToady	then it has to be put into the "setting", which is like a Haskell prelude, except we think of it as lexically around the user's code, not in front of it
17:48	tadzik	im2ee: what do you plan to do?
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17:57	masak	oh hai #perl6
17:57	im2ee	tadzik, hmm, i have some ideas, but i must learn a bit more. :)
17:57	masak	eiro: great! looking forward to hearing about your progress!
17:58	masak	eiro: as far as I know, I'm the only one who's build such an AI so far. I didn't publish mine yet. (it's very naive)
18:01	Su-Shee	call it "young and innocent" ;)
18:02	masak	it's very young and innocent.
18:03	Su-Shee	let
18:03	Su-Shee	let's knit a nice cuddly toy!
18:06	* masak	imagines one knit cuddly toy for each animal type in Little Animal Farm
18:06	Su-Shee	which can be automated by your young and innocent AI in need of some cuddly toys!
18:06	Su-Shee	also, skynet will be fluffed and cuddled into submission.
18:08	masak	awww
18:10		Trashlord joined #perl6
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18:12	* Su-Shee	sees terminator kittens and bunnies. but maybe that was just my three hours at the dentist..
18:14		ZaphrodZenovka joined #perl6
18:16	masak	TimToady: if strings are immutable, and cursors are immutable, and each cursor keeps an $.orig reference, what is it that actually changes when string-emitting macros change the source code?
18:20	im2ee	Does exist something like auto-closing file? E.g. i open file, and i forget about close this file on the end of a scope . Does perl close it automatically? :)
18:20		localhost joined #perl6
18:20	moritz	im2ee: it should be closed eventually. It isn't now in rakudo and parrot (known bug)
18:21	im2ee	moritz, ok. Fine. :)
18:21	tadzik	is it a lack of DESTROY?
18:22	masak	im2ee: Perl 5 closes it when its variable goes out of score. Perl 6 closes it when the value gets GC'd, which is any time starting from when its variable goes out of scope. :)
18:22	moritz	tadzik: mixture of lack of DESTROY and lack of global destruction
18:22	tadzik	mhm
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18:45	masak	I don't know if I've posted "Enough is Enough: A Thinking Ape’s Critique of Trans-Simianism" here before... but it seems many in here would like the tone of that text.
18:46	masak	it's even slightly on-topic if you believe Perl 6 will have a hand in the Singularity :P
18:46	TimToady	we're working toward the Plurality instead...
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19:22	lue	hello planet o/
19:22	colomon	\o
19:23	TimToady	plant o/ greets you
19:23	TimToady	*planet
19:27	lue	TimToady: I noticed the P6 cheatsheet is no longer at wall.org/~larry/cheatsheet [had to use the Wayback Machine to get it]
19:28	pmichaud	it should be in the perl6 repo somewhere
19:28	lue	makes sense /me checks
19:29	TimToady	okay, should be there now again (been restoring things piecemeal since a headcrash)
19:30		daniel-s joined #perl6
19:32	lue	yep, it's in the mu repo. And TimToady++ for getting it back online (sometimes typing in a simple URL is faster than a dig through the mu repo)
19:35	TimToady	I note that 'slice' should now be 'lol'
19:46	* lue	suddenly knows a bit more about what 'slice' used to mean, thanks to the new, more descriptive name 'lol'
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20:37	pmichaud	I'm having a hard time finding the time spent in 'lineof' as claimed by mls' kcachegrind file
20:39	pmichaud	what do the counts represent, ooc?
20:39	im2ee	Have to go, bye! :) Have a nice day
20:39	im2ee	or night :)
20:40	tadzik	o/
20:53	flussence	does anyone know what happened to that old spec graph that used to be on the rakudo site? I remember seeing it a long time ago, dunno if it's been lost since
20:54	pmichaud	some of the internals changed, so it was left to bitrot
20:54	pmichaud	i.e., we could no longer keep the totals up to date reliably
20:55	pmichaud	the program that created those graphs is tools/progress_graph.pl
20:55	pmichaud	er, tools/progress-graph.pl
20:55	flussence	yeah, just curious to see what it looked like so I can tell if I missed anything important on my ones... :)
20:55	pmichaud	oh, I have some old graphs in slideshows
20:55	pmichaud	just a sec
20:57	pmichaud	http://pmichaud.com/2009/pres/[…]lides/slide6.html
20:57	pmichaud	there's an example.
20:57	flussence	that looks like it, thanks
20:58	pmichaud	also: http://pmichaud.com/2009/pres/[…]ts-2009-04-17.png
20:59	tadzik	there was one in my talk too
21:00	tadzik	https://github.com/tadzik/Perl[…]ster/progress.png
21:00	flussence	I'm not entirely sure what the regr(ession)? number is on those old ones, I've looked at the code too...
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21:13	cognominal___	sacré faciste de Callaghan! sur France 3
21:14	cognominal___	*fasciste
21:16	cognominal___	il suffit qu'il se promène dans le quartier chinois de SF pour qu'il y ait un hold up
21:17	tadzik	ww?
21:18	cognominal___	oops
21:18	cognominal___	wrong channel, again :(
21:18	tadzik	happens to the best of us :)
21:18	flussence	(meanwhile, some other channel is getting a long essay about hyperoperators...)
21:19		dorlamm joined #perl6
21:19	tadzik	an actual laughter was produced, aloud
21:20	tadzik	flussence++ # plain 'lol' is not sufficient these days
21:27	TimToady	laughed out loud really == lolr, and then we can quantify it with lolr(1)
21:27	sjohnson	heh
21:27	sjohnson	$self->_lolr == 1
21:27	tadzik	look ohead?
21:27	tadzik	fatface!
21:28	* pmichaud	just _knows_ that we're going to end up with a .lolr contextualizer now.
21:28	pmichaud	probably instead of .tree(1) :-)
21:29	tadzik	（　｀ー´）
21:29	tadzik	gets me every time :)
21:30	sjohnson	heheh
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21:36	Sparky_	natureboy: hi
21:36		swarles joined #perl6
21:36	natureboy	Sparky_: hi
21:36	Sparky_	i l y l o l =]
21:36	natureboy	swarles: people probably think we come in a package or something
21:37	swarles	hahaha
21:37	swarles	TimToady, what text editor do you use?
21:37		tomaw joined #perl6
21:38	sjohnson	he uses vim!
21:39	swarles	I thought so haha
21:39	* sjohnson	too
21:39	swarles	I could never get into vi because im not good with the key triggers or whatever you would call them
21:40	Sparky_	it just takes some getting used to
21:40	Sparky_	i use nano for my text-ui editor
21:40	Sparky_	gedit or kate for my gnome one
21:41	swarles	nano is very easy to use, i use it as well
21:48	sjohnson	after a long learning curve with vi
21:48	sjohnson	you become convinced that it is the best way to write code
21:49	swarles	I have heard that a lot, why is that?
21:49	tadzik	I had a moment of enlightenment when I realized that typing itself cannot be optimized really much. It's the editing, jumping through the document that the time is wasted on. vim changes that
21:50	Sparky_	ö.ö
21:51	swarles	Does it let you jump to certain code blocks or something?
21:51	swarles	I'll have to look it up
21:51	tadzik	well. You can really easily jump for example 3 words forward. Or to the next opening bracket. To change the word on the cursor and nothing else
21:52	flussence	typing can't be optimised, sure, but vim's drawing of those chars to screen leaves a lot to be desired...
21:52	tadzik	I don't think I understand
21:53	flussence	on my netbook the vim process tends to average 10% cpu just editing perl6 code
21:53	tadzik	oh, I think our hilighting is a bit less than awesome in that sense
21:53	tadzik	but I won't really seek vim's fault in that
21:54	flussence	(anyone feel like writing a vimscript LLVM backend? :)
21:55	cognominal___	tiens on voit la voie rapide détruite par le tremblement de terre sur France 3
21:55		mkramer1 joined #perl6
21:56	tadzik	hehe
21:56	cognominal___	Callaghan fait son jogging sur Embarcadero
22:00	sjohnson	swarles: if if you're wondering why that is, then.. simply because when you get fast at doing what Vim can do with your fingers
22:00	sjohnson	it's just so much slower doing the same things in things like notepad, or nano
22:01	sjohnson	jump around, copy blocks of code quickly, delete lines quickly, and a hundred other things
22:01	swarles	I'm trying it out right now, I'm reading a tutorial on it as we speak ^.^
22:02	donri	a very strange enchanted boy..
22:02	sjohnson	swarles: took me many months to get used to using it
22:02	sjohnson	it has a steep learning curve, so try not to become too frustrated
22:03	sjohnson	also, i have found that setting up a .vimrc with simple macros to make qutting easier essential for my piece of mind
22:03	sjohnson	map :Q! :q!
22:03	sjohnson	shit like that
22:03	swarles	o.o
22:03	swarles	:ZZ is quit and save right
22:03	swarles	?
22:04	flussence	no, you can just write ZZ for that
22:04	flussence	or :x
22:04	swarles	oic
22:04	swarles	I'm making sure that i read the tut carefully, because i know if i deviate i'll get mad when it doesnt work, haha
22:04	donri	vim is best at editing, emacs at everything else
22:04	sjohnson	my favourite custom mapping is: map q :q<CR>
22:05	sjohnson	i even read someone else figured that out, and even posted a blog about it
22:05	jasonmay	do you have recording mapped somewhere else? I am intrigued
22:06	donri	http://yehudakatz.com/2010/07/[…]se-vim-was-wrong/ mandatory reading
22:07	tadzik	I have a feeling that people are talking about vim a bit too much
22:08	donri	because they are... vimpy.
22:10	sjohnson	jasonmay: you mean, do i have my mappings online somewhere?
22:10	lue	I for the record use emacs as a secondary OS :) [remote editing and archive viewing go!, to name a couple of great things]
22:10	tadzik	I use mc for that :)
22:12		dorlamm joined #perl6
22:13		dual joined #perl6
22:14	lue	I tried vim (for, what, a minute, long time ago) and didn't like it too much (in particular the need to switch into an editing mode to do anything). There was something about emacs though that made me stick with it.
22:14	lue	[Now if only I were allowed to change my Caps Lock key to Ctrl...]
22:15		bbkr joined #perl6
22:18	donri	modal editing is effective if you can manage to train yourself to defer fixing errors to after you're done inputting, for example
22:18	donri	i.e. stay in one mode longer instead of switching all the time between editing and inserting
22:19	felher	lue: Well, most of the vim users love vim for its two modes. One may very well remap some key to escape though, so one doesn't have to leave the home-row for leaving insert-,command-,visual-mode.
22:19	donri	^C works for leaving insert mode
22:20	lue	O.o
22:20	donri	i rarely ever use escape in vim
22:20	djanatyn	lue: You're not allowed to change your capslock key to control?
22:20	felher	donri: well, yeah. But just for leaving. It is not the same as <esc> since it behaves quite differently.
22:21	TimToady	I use CTRL-[, and I do have my capslock remapped
22:21	donri	felher: in deed
22:21	TimToady	so I don't leave the homerow to escape
22:21	* djanatyn	remapped his capslock key to ctrl
22:21	donri	^[ is like insanely complicated to type on a swedish keyboard
22:21	lue	I think my keyboard is wired to not allow remapping Caps Lock. On Apple keyboards (at least this powerbook's), the CapsLock LED is in the key itself, which tells me the functionality is hardwired
22:21	donri	ctrl+altgr+9
22:22	TimToady	lue: not necessarily
22:22	lue	[Trying to remap results in a dead Caps Lock key that does nothing]
22:22		bbkr joined #perl6
22:22	TimToady	I've had capslock keys like that that remapped fine
22:22	lue	Or perhaps I haven't been doing it right :)
22:22	TimToady	the light went on or off every other time though :)
22:22	* felher	just did :imap fj <esc>. fj is very fast to type, one does not have to leave the homerow and i never had to realy insert fj.
22:22	* djanatyn	just used xmodmap
22:23	sjohnson	TimToady: is your capslock remapped to ESC?
22:23	sjohnson	that's why i do
22:23	TimToady	no, it's ctrl, like it oughta be :)
22:23	lue	(other items on my keyboard agenda include learning Dvorak (just for the heck of it, haven't decided between English or Programmer), and designing my own keyboard
22:23	sjohnson	i find it much easier for my left pinky to hit the caps
22:23	sjohnson	as ESC, that is
22:24	TimToady	I switched to vi because emacs was wearing out my left pinky
22:24	lue	I'd love to avoid the "Emacs Pinky" by CapsLock -> Ctrl. [as soon as my computer is done with the mass upgrade, I'll try all that again]
22:24	lue	(Not that I've had "emacs pinky" yet, I'm not a shortcut-maniac)
22:24	sjohnson	so far i'm the only guy i know who uses CAPS -> Esc for blissful vi editing
22:24	sjohnson	though one girl at work who doesn't use Vi still does it, and she said it's rocking her world. going over to her computer to do stuff is blissful cause it's just like my setup
22:25	donri	i have caps as compose in x11
22:26	lue	.oO(The world would be much better off with clicky noise-making Space Cadet keyboards...)
22:26	plobsing	you people must be really smart. My mind can never output sufficiently fast to put any kind of strain on my hands.
22:26	TimToady	lue: not when you have an SO trying to sleep
22:26	pmichaud	I've mapped individual pixels on the top row of my monitor to input characters, so that clicking at e.g. 0,65 sends an "A". Thus I can enter up to 1920 unique characters all with a single button. :-P
22:27	felher	pmichaud: :D awesome idea!
22:27	lue	perhaps s/The world/I/ then (or s/The World/Some/)
22:28	felher	someone really should imlement a virtual-keyboard working that way :)
22:29	lue	.oO[You quickly run out of buttons on a kb when you want to assign them to middle click, right click, compose, and uim/anthy]
22:31	felher	lue: Yeah, but as pmichaud statet: With 1920x1080 res, mapping the first row of pixels of your screen to characters gives you 1920 characters :D If you use left,middle,right, even 5760 :)
22:33	lue	rakudo: my $pixels = 1024 * 768; my $unicodechars = 0x110000; say ?($pixels >= $unicodechars);
22:33	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
22:35	* lue	ponders an -Ofun keyboard
22:35	donri	http://typematrix.com/
22:39	lue	I'll check that in more detail later (curse thee inadequate CPU!), but looks cool. [My favorite from looking for fun so far is Das Keyboard]
22:46	TimToady	lue: if you have a color screen you can count each pixel 3 times :)
22:46	TimToady	rakudo: my $pixels = 3 * 1024 * 768; my $unicodechars = 0x110000; say ?($pixels >= $unicodechars);
22:46	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
22:47	lue	I would love to see a Unicode keyboard (0x110000 keys, all produce a different character)
22:47	natureboy	what is ?() ?
22:48	TimToady	? is a prefix operator that is the opposite of !
22:48	TimToady	so like !! in Perl 5
22:48	natureboy	oh, that's convenient
22:49	donri	rakudo: say 3 >= 2
22:49	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
22:50	donri	rakudo: say 1.Bool
22:50	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
22:50	donri	rakudo: say 0.Bool
22:50	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
22:51	donri	and of course "??" is the same as "!" (but only on a certain day in april)
22:56	TimToady	"yeah, sure." <-- double positive
22:56	donri	"do you mind" "yes of course!"
22:57	TimToady	"You can say that again." === "That goes without saying."
22:57	lue	.oO(really unsure people should use the ???????????? prefix)
22:58	donri	http://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally
22:58	TimToady	perl6: ???????????
22:58	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Found ?? but no !! at line 1, near "???"␤»
22:58	p6eval	..niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Prefix requires an argument at /tmp/j9VGcHPr8v line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> ???????????â��<EOL>â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
22:58	p6eval	..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "???????????"␤ expecting program␤ at /tmp/jnKDHxFXH6 line 1, column 1␤»
22:58	lue	.oO(I literally destroyed Jupiter when I saw that link to theoatmeal)
22:59	lue	perl6: my $a = 3; say ????????????$a;
22:59	p6eval	pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "????????????$"␤ expecting bare or pointy block construct, ":", identifier or operator␤ at /tmp/nS3U9Fktti line 1, column 16␤»
22:59	p6eval	..niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Expecting a term, but found either infix ?? or redundant prefix ?â�¤ (to suppress this message, please use space between ? ?) at /tmp/fL5Vlc1Ix5 line 1:â�¤------> my $a = 3; say ????????????â��$a;â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤â€¦
22:59	p6eval	..rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Found ?? but no !! at line 1, near ";"␤»
22:59	donri	oh wait ??!! is the ternary right?
22:59	donri	otherwise the rakudo error was hilarious
22:59	TimToady	and ??? is a listop
23:00	lue	Darn. I was kinda hoping you could stack the ?'s ... [for no other reason than because you can, so it's not a loss]
23:00	TimToady	perl6: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 42
23:00	p6eval	pugs, rakudo 2bac6a, niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: ( no output )
23:01	TimToady	perl6: ??? ??? ???
23:01	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &warn␤ in <anon> at /tmp/9Fog6nNLRc:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/9Fog6nNLRc:1␤␤»
23:01	p6eval	..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot cast from VUndef to GHC.IO.Handle.Types.Handle (VHandle)␤ at /tmp/RudZp1qt_6 line 1, column 9 - line 2, column 1␤»
23:01	p6eval	..niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: >>>Stub code executed␤ at /tmp/pQUH5dzr4l line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2045 (CORE C954_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2046 (CORE module-CORE @ 57) ␤ at /home/p6ev…
23:01	donri	perl6: ! ? ! ! 0 ?? 1 !! 0
23:01	p6eval	pugs, rakudo 2bac6a, niecza v9-8-gd3b0031: ( no output )
23:02	lue	What does work though (and I've used it a couple of times) is !?$a
23:02	donri	2bac6a "oh that one"
23:02	donri	chewbacca
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23:03	donri	lue: what be the point though?
23:04	TimToady	not so $a # much more poetical
23:04	lue	To boolify the variable and negate it (I honestly can't recall why I do it, but I recall having good reason to)
23:05	lue	rakudo: my $a = 1; say "hi" if not so $a;
23:05	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: ( no output )
23:06	lue	Although from I've read here just now !$a would do the same thing (i.e. the ? is redundant). I still like the look and clarification of !?$a :)
23:07		wolfman2000 joined #perl6
23:07	TimToady	rakudo: if False == so not True { say so True }
23:07	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
23:08	lue	:D
23:08	lue	.oO(only in P6...)
23:08	donri	rakudo: say .WHAT
23:08	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
23:09	donri	rakudo: .say given *
23:09	p6eval	rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«*␤»
23:09	lue	I'm also still searching (passively however) for a suitable English translation of %_
23:11	donri	topical pair map!
23:11	natureboy	what are the "postcircumfix" methods?
23:11	lue	[$_ -> it, @_ -> them, %_ -> ???, &_ -> ???, ¢_ -> ???]
23:11	donri	punctuation that goes around something, after something else
23:13	donri	f.x. calling() is i think postcircumfix:<()>
23:13	donri	the parenthesis are "post" the identifier and "circum" the arguments
23:14	natureboy	i see
23:16	TimToady	lue: there is no ¢, you've been reading ancient documentation
23:16	lue	it's mentioned briefly in S08, as well as its ASCII equivalent @%
23:16	donri	%_ -> "the respective"?
23:17	TimToady	"thus"
23:17	donri	ah
23:17	lue	.oO(get all the key-value pairs of thus)
23:18		mkramer joined #perl6
23:18	donri	"thus get all the facts"? :)
23:20	lue	I really like P6 because at times it feels like a natural language, almost as if a linguist designed it...
23:20	TimToady	as if an almost linguist designed it, you mean :)
23:22	lue	I agree with the "it's not a first language, it's a last language" sentiment. You'll never not want to use P6 once you know it.
23:26	donri	a language to last
23:30	lue	.oO(It's also the only language with a lol type) There should be a grand list of "cool things about P6", where everyone adds a particularly amazing/cool/fun feature they've found
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23:38	lue	afk
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23:52	[Coke]	.
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