Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-10-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:22 dalek Pugs.hs: 9782a01 | (Ingy dot Net)++ | install-haskell-platform-ghc7-and-pugs​-on-debian-or-ubuntu-from-scratch.sh:
00:22 dalek Pugs.hs: This script will install GHC7 and Pugs on Debian.
00:22 dalek Pugs.hs:
00:22 dalek Pugs.hs: If you are very lucky. :)
00:22 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/9782a0127c
00:24 ingy moritz: ^^
00:24 ingy moritz: That should do the trick.
00:24 ingy moritz: and what a holy pain it was...
00:26 ingy anyone want to try to install pugs on debian?
00:27 ingy :)
00:29 ingy masak: ?
00:31 [Coke] ah, I can try to install haskell platform on OS X now.
00:31 ingy moritz: even though the script above will take a long time, the building of pugs in cron using Pugs-hs/Pugs/Makefile should only take a few seconds
00:32 ingy [Coke]: you'll need to tweak the script
00:32 ingy one sec
00:33 [Coke] ingy: download is going to take another 22 minutes.
00:34 ingy actually the script is pretty debian specific
00:34 ingy but please try getting going on mac
00:34 [Coke] ingy: i'm looking at the haskell platform .pkg ; I can only imagine it's OS X specific.
00:34 ingy :)
00:35 ingy I think linux was the hardest
00:35 ingy I was even working with a haskell guy and he was sighing how ridiculous the process was
00:38 ingy [Coke]: how do we give out commit bits?
00:39 ingy shachaf needs a bit for pugs
00:39 ingy hugme: shachaf
00:39 ingy guess
00:45 [Coke] ingy: I think perl6/ is pretty liberal.
00:45 [Coke] hugme: help?
00:45 hugme [Coke]: (add $who to $project | list projects | show $project | hug $nickname | tweet $twittername $message )
00:45 [Coke] hugme: add shachaf to Pugs.hs
00:45 hugme [Coke]: sorry, I don't know anything about project 'Pugs.hs'
00:45 [Coke] hugme: list projects
00:45 hugme [Coke]: I know about Math-Model, Math-RungeKutta, MiniDBI, bench-scripts, book, gge, hugme, ilbot, java2perl6, json, modules.perl6.org, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6, perl6-examples, perl6-wtop, proto, pugs, rakudo, star, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tardis, try.rakudo.org, tufte, ufo, web, yapsi
00:46 [Coke] I think the pugs there is old pugs.
00:46 diakopter Pugs.hs is under the perl6 project I thought
00:46 [Coke] but iunno
00:46 ingy right
00:46 [Coke] oh! that's easy, then.
00:46 ingy do it
00:46 [Coke] I leave it as an excercize for the reader.
00:46 diakopter hugme: add shachaf to perl6
00:46 [Coke] ;)
00:46 ingy shachaf: ^^
00:46 diakopter nice
00:46 diakopter I crashed it
00:46 [Coke] BWUAAHAH.
00:46 [Coke] ahem.
00:46 ingy gah
00:47 ingy moritz: ^^
00:47 ingy rather
00:47 ingy sigh
00:47 ingy what a day of FAIL
00:47 ingy beer time
00:47 ingy &
00:48 gfldex nom: my Rat $sum = 0.Rat; $sum += 24537130 * 3.37; $sum += 5678 * 4.28; say $sum;
00:48 p6eval nom 3fd353: OUTPUT«82714429.94␤»
00:48 gfldex anybody still awake who could try that on 32bit ?
00:49 [Coke] sure.
00:49 gfldex on my 32bit host it says: -3184915.98
00:50 [Coke] gfldex: 82714429.94
00:51 [Coke] I'm on OS X
00:51 [Coke] 10.6.8, 32 bit, intel
00:51 gfldex Linux dexhome 3.0.0-1-686-pae #1 SMP Sat Aug 27 16:41:03 UTC 2011 i686 GNU/Linux
00:53 gfldex [Coke]: what is your perl6 --version ?
00:53 sorear shachaf is a proper p6er now? \o/
00:55 [Coke] This is perl6 version 2011.09-66-gabc6874 built on parrot 3.8.0 revision RELEASE_3_8_0-130-gfad30ea
00:55 [Coke] few days old.
00:55 [Coke] I'll kick off a rebuild.
00:56 sorear I've added Shachaf to perl6
00:56 sorear made sure it was the right one, too.
00:56 gfldex mine is a few hours old
00:56 [Coke] gimmie a minute.
00:59 shachaf sorear: Oh, hello.
00:59 shachaf ingy: What have you gotten me into?
00:59 ingy trouble
01:00 ingy with two capital S's
01:02 shachaf So Pugs has been resurrected?
01:02 [Coke] trouSSle ?
01:02 * shachaf moves #perl6 down from irssi window 87.
01:08 [Coke] ugh. compiling rakudo just kills my machine. :P
01:08 shachaf What's the oldest version of GHC that people actually compile Pugs with? I'd like to get rid of all these deprecation warnings.
01:09 [Coke] shachaf: I suspect that all 3 of them are here.
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01:10 [Coke] I haven't started yet, but am installing whatever the latest version on haskell platform is.
01:10 shachaf [Coke]: People who compile Pugs?
01:11 [Coke] ingy just resurrected it, I thought.
01:11 [Coke] shachaf: yes, them.
01:11 [Coke] I'm installing  2011.2.0.1 , apparently.
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01:34 [Coke] does "cabal install Pugs" install from the local checkout?
01:37 shachaf [Coke]: No, it installs from Hackage.
01:37 shachaf [Coke]: Just "cabal install" should run from the current directory, though.
01:38 [Coke] I'm thinking that "cabal install Pugs" shouldn't be the first thing in the README, then.
01:42 [Coke] gfldex: same result.
01:43 gfldex i will rebuild myself while i ./snore &
01:49 dalek roast: 167c741 | Coke++ | S16-io/bare-say.t:
01:49 dalek roast: rakudo fudging
01:49 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/167c7419a8
01:49 dalek rakudo/nom: 3e66bdf | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
01:49 dalek rakudo/nom: track failures, run fudges
01:49 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3e66bdf773
01:50 * [Coke] wonders why Pugs.hs/README says "Perl 5"
01:51 * [Coke] finds HACKING, and goes down that path instead.
01:51 sorear hello shachaf
01:56 [Coke] "at least the following dependiences are missing"... "cabal install <dep>" ?
01:57 [Coke] looks like.
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02:35 [Coke] ingy, shachaf: http://nopaste.snit.ch/87090
02:35 [Coke] ;(build failure on pugs on OS X)
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02:38 shachaf [Coke]: Hmm, what version of GHC/base are you using?
02:40 * sorear wonders if shachaf has set an /ignore
02:41 shachaf sorear: No, why?
02:45 * shachaf is confused.
02:47 sorear shachaf: ignoring hellos, and our past
02:47 sorear shachaf: apologies for the hasty conclusion
02:48 [Coke] shachaf: um...
02:49 [Coke] how would I tell? ;)
02:49 shachaf [Coke]: ghc --version; ghc-pkg list base; ghc-pkg list stm
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03:08 [Coke] ah, which ghc is showing me the macports one, not the cabal one. checking...
03:10 [Coke] aaaaargh. all the prereqs I installed were apparently tied to other-pugs.
03:10 [Coke] er, other-ghc.
03:10 [Coke] starting over...
03:10 [Coke] (or, are wiped with a 'make clean')
03:23 colomon b: say 10.rand
03:23 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«2.59589085196243␤»
03:24 sorear o/ colomon
03:24 colomon \o
03:25 colomon I'm trying to see if I can get a quick version of pick up and running before bedtime
03:25 colomon nom: say 10.rand
03:25 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«3.306615122865␤»
03:27 [Coke] new error, nopaste coming..
03:32 [Coke] https://gist.github.com/1283291
03:32 [Coke] (that's only a fragment of the build)
03:33 shachaf [Coke]: Looks like an OS X issue.
03:33 shachaf [Coke]: As far as I know only 32-bit GHC is available for OS X. Maybe libperl.a is 64-bit?
03:38 [Coke] I've only got 32 bits.
03:39 [Coke] zzzz soon. will investigate more tomorrow. Thanks!
03:42 colomon sorear: bother.  no splice yet either? ;)
03:43 [Coke] (and after removing ports, I'm using ghc 7.0.3, btw.)
03:43 colomon afk #bedtime
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04:03 ingy shachaf: I think you can feel free to make pugs use fairly modern ghc
04:05 ingy I had it running on 6.12.4? for a bit but now I am going to stick with 7+
04:05 ingy what version did the deprecations start with?
04:05 ingy time to zzzz
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05:03 moritz good morning
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05:07 moritz ingy: I alrady tried to install GHC 7.0.3 myself. It failed because of GHC bug 5005.
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05:12 sorear nom: role A[::B] { class C { method foo() { say B } }; method bar { C.foo } }; class D { }; A[D].bar
05:12 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Cannot call a method on type variable B␤  in find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:267␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:4957␤  in method foo at /tmp/B2F_HHl8Pe:1␤  in method bar at /tmp/B2F_HHl8Pe:1␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:1125␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/…
05:12 sorear I'm looking for a way to emulate ML functors
05:12 sorear parametric roles would do the job if that example worked. :)
05:18 sorear essentially, modules (with EXPORTed functions and zero or more types) parametrized over one or more other modules
05:19 moritz nom: role A[$B] { class C { method foo() { say $B } }; method bar { C.foo } }; class D { }; A[D].bar
05:19 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('gist')␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:4957␤  in method foo at /tmp/IvqRxAPI_7:1␤  in method bar at /tmp/IvqRxAPI_7:1␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:1125␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/IvqRxAPI_7:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/IvqRxAPI_7:1␤…
05:19 moritz I guess it doesn't like the inner class being composed at compile time, before the role is being concretized
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06:28 masak good morning, #perl6.
06:29 masak http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/10​/in-search-of-minimum-viable-utility.html # chromatic++
06:29 moritz good masak, morning
06:31 masak in some ways, it's not a fun read. but it keeps close to reality. I'm saddened that in 2011, a Perl 6 backer like chromatic can't realistically use Perl 6 for daily tasks.
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06:37 masak I agree with a commenter that good Perl 5 integration would be a big help.
06:39 moritz "I worry that once you release a programming language with minimum viable utility, you ossify early decisions of design and implementation such that you can't quite yank the floorboards out from underneath any users you have, lest they stop being users and stop providing feedback."
06:39 moritz I can't believe this sentence comes from somebody who complains about the frequent rewrites of rakudo
06:41 moritz well, makes a very big deal out of those rewrites
06:44 moritz chromatic makes a good job describing the problem. If he only offered a solution...
06:45 masak I don't blame him for not doing that. he's one of the few people, maybe the only one, who describes the problem.
06:46 masak as to yanking the floorboards, I've always considered the phase Perl 6 has been in from 2005 up until now to be this "fluid" phase where we have the privilege to make spec course corrections without it hurting anyone.
06:46 masak that would change overnight if someone took Perl 6 on as their "production platform".
06:47 masak of course, it's not a one-way causality arrow there. not entirely. some prospective clients may be scared off by all the fluidity.
06:47 masak "it's 2011 and you're still mucking around with the spec!?"
06:48 masak I've gathered that mberends argues, or at least has argued, for freezing the entire spec in order to attract such clients.
06:49 moritz that sounds nice, unless you actually plan to implement it :-)
06:50 masak right. :)
06:51 masak my counter-point at the time was something along the lines of the fluidity of the spec being important to the implementors, and the benefits of freezing the spec uncertain.
06:51 moritz it would make us fall into the same kind of trap as the parrot deprecation policy
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06:51 mberends masak: I no longer argue so. I wrongly suggested freezing when I believed the spec was largely complete, and merely being extended. I now understand better that the spec is still very patchy.
06:51 moritz ie it would make sense iff we had a horde of users out there. Maybe.
06:51 jnthn It doesn't make sense to talk about "the spec" as if it's all at the same level of maturity.
06:52 jnthn The bar for changes to most of S03, S06, S12 and S14 should be very high.
06:52 jnthn To S11, pretty low.
06:52 mberends aye
06:52 masak right. there's a city center of the spec that's stable and high quality. the suburbs are so-so.
06:53 masak jnthn: I'd include S05 too in the "bar should be high", even though it's seen some changes lately.
06:54 jnthn er, yes, that to
06:54 jnthn I wasn't trying to be exhaustive.
06:54 jnthn At a personal level, I no longer have appetite for big changes to things I consider stable any moer.
06:54 jnthn *more
06:54 jnthn It's demotivating.
06:54 jnthn OK, teaching time. o/
06:58 masak that's an important factor too. implementor burnout.
06:58 masak but with any such change I would prefer to argue against change on merits of the current spec rather than "jnthn quits if you change this again!", if possible ;)
06:59 masak sorear's recent proposal for changing the MMD semantics is a good example.
06:59 masak as I understand it, there are really good reasons Perl 6 shouldn't/can't emulate C# semantics there.
07:08 moritz I didn't follow that discussion very closely -- can you give a quick summary of the reasons?
07:09 masak only a garbled version of what jnthn told me.
07:10 masak essentially, C# has different distributions of compile-time/runtime dispatch decisions.
07:10 sorear the C# spec is very close to what P6 is doing already.  I do not beleive jnthn's answer to be correct at all.
07:11 sorear but I'm not going to convince him except with working code
07:11 masak I do take it seriously that jnthn has implemented the algorithm for dispatch resolution, and he says that we're in a model sweet spot.
07:12 masak yes, that's arguing from authority. but in this case, the authority is what makes my MMD calls work ;)
07:14 sorear after I get /serialize working I'll make the necessary changes to niecza.  I don't think it will change the behavior of any sane code, but it does a better job of carping in insane cases
07:14 sorear but for now, *sleep*
07:15 masak 'night, sorear. dream of working serialization and sane code.
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07:21 masak ingy: I'll try installing Pugs when I get home tonight.
07:24 masak nom: role A[$B] { class C { method foo() { say $B } }; method bar { C.foo } }; class D { }; A[D].bar
07:24 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('gist')␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:4957␤  in method foo at /tmp/xCHvZokqR7:1␤  in method bar at /tmp/xCHvZokqR7:1␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:1125␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/xCHvZokqR7:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/xCHvZokqR7:1␤…
07:24 masak moritz: did you RT this one?
07:24 moritz masak: no
07:24 * masak submits rakudobug
07:25 moritz after yesterday's discussion, I'm not convinced anymore that it makes sense to ticket each weird corner case
07:27 masak wow, that's not at all what I took away from yesterday's discussion.
07:27 masak and even if it were, I'd probably consider the above case well within the set of worthy tickets.
07:28 moritz well, it was more the result of the non-discussion part
07:29 moritz where I asked what value RT provides, and nobody had really convincing cases
07:29 masak I'd rather have a longish RT queue and people complaining that it's longish, than a situation where someone suffers from a Null PMC access in production and we go "oh yeah, that one. we stumbled upon it, and then forgot about it."
07:29 masak moritz: wut? I thought I replied to just that question.
07:30 masak RT, in the best case, represents what we know to be wrong with Rakudo and/or Perl 6.
07:30 moritz masak: you did, and it didn't convince me of the practical value of RT
07:30 masak :(
07:32 masak on balance, if I find something wrong, I submit it to RT. here's why: over 50% of the tickets I've ever submitted have been fixed. there's no doubt in my mind that a smaller quantity of the same bugs would've gotten fixed had those tickets not been in the queue.
07:32 masak I don't see how that's not value.
07:33 moritz we had a huge amount of tickets where parrot objects leaked through to p6 space
07:33 masak (I'm not talking about just my tickets, of course. I just happen to know what proportion of my tickets have been closed.)
07:34 moritz switching to nom made those tickets really uninteresting
07:34 masak so what?
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07:34 masak it's like saying "this refactor made your feature requests moot"
07:35 masak there was no way for us to know *at the time* that those tickets would be uninteresting.
07:35 masak and each one probably represented some amount of pain for the submitter.
07:35 moritz so they turned out to be an (RT, roast) maintenance burden, and not useful
07:35 masak what you're saying is maybe cause for overseeing process somewhere. not for throwing out RT.
07:41 masak the relevant question is perhaps "could we have known, foreseen, or prepared for those tickets becoming really uninteresting?"
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07:42 masak maybe pre-emptively tagging them all with a parrotobjectleakingthrough would've been enough to help combat the subsequent sense of futility.
07:42 uvtc Interesting blog post from Chromatic.
07:43 uvtc I've been thinking that what Perl 6 indirectly needs to reach "minimum viable utility" stage is Perl 6 user docs. perldocs for Perl 6.
07:43 uvtc I wrote an article about it, which could be a blog post, I suppose, except that I don't have a blog at the moment. It's temporarily here, in case anyone wants to take a gander: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/t​emp/perl-5-success-perl-6-needs.html
07:43 uvtc The last section addresses Perl 6.
07:43 drbean joined #perl6
07:43 * masak takes a gander
07:46 frettled you give me goose bumps ;)
07:46 uvtc Who, me?
07:46 uvtc Why?
07:46 frettled No, masak.  He's like that. :)
07:47 frettled (gander = adult male goose, BTW)
07:47 * frettled is a horrible punster.
07:47 uvtc Hahaha. Nice. :)
07:48 masak "and yet Perl 5 survives" -- the principle of "worse is better" in action, I guess.
07:49 frettled yup
07:49 frettled uvtc: Nice write-up.
07:50 uvtc Thanks, frettled.
07:50 masak I agree. Perl 6 needs docs.
07:50 moritz the real problem is that Perl 6 needs so many things
07:51 moritz it needs features I can use
07:51 moritz it needs docs for those features
07:51 masak and Perl 6 is always going to be compared with Perl 5 for the things it lacks.
07:51 moritz and it needs the stability to make the documentation not outdated after half a year
07:51 moritz and it needs to be not so slow
07:51 moritz and it needs to be robust, and so on
07:51 masak we just have to converge slowly on all of those things.
07:52 uvtc My understanding is that, although it needs all those things, feedback from users drives the process.
07:52 uvtc I'm guessing it also provides encouragement to developers.
07:53 masak someone who takes on a major doc writing project needs to be prepared for some amount of spec bitrot, and not be discouraged by that.
07:53 uvtc And to get users (hence, feedback), you need those docs. It's just a necessary evil that they're going to have to be updated a lot.
07:53 masak the Perl 6 Advent runs have showed that exposing the workings of Perl 6 to users is a really good thing. docs would help with that, too.
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07:54 masak uvtc: we're waiting for a champion.
07:54 uvtc My impression of the advent articles was that they generated interest. They showed off features. But they left me wanting real meat and potatoes perldocs.
07:56 uvtc masak: I don't think it needs to even be a "major" doc writing project. Just some basic readable user-level basics.
07:56 moritz uvtc: then write them. I'll support you wherever I can
07:56 moritz in fact I've started writing docs multiple times, and got starved by lonliness
07:56 uvtc moritz: "starved by lonliness"?
07:57 uvtc moritz: do you mean it was turning into more work than you anticipated?
07:57 masak moritz: me too.
07:57 moritz uvtc: nobody seriously joined my effort, and I lost focus
07:57 masak it's hugely thankless work, with little feedback on the way.
07:57 jnthn Null PMC access is always wrong really...tickets on it are fine. In the role case above, we should do something better...
07:57 moritz same thing with the book; I can't seem to motivate my co-authors to work more on it
07:58 moritz commute&
07:59 uvtc I see. A possible solution might be to institute some kind of policy where, when spec changes happen that disagree with the docs, someone pings the doc champion.
08:03 uvtc For me, the Synopses are difficult to follow. If I were writing perldocs, and the Synopses were changing under my feet, and I didn't know where to look to see what's changing,
08:04 uvtc and users were complaining that the docs were out of date,
08:05 uvtc that would probably spiral into the docs getting abandoned.
08:05 masak the desired traits of a doc champion are rare. it has to be someone with more than a decent understanding of the spec, the implementations, and how to write docs.
08:06 uvtc If no one experienced here is working on perldocs in stealth-mode, then I don't think you're going to find someone with the traits you desire.
08:06 masak me neither.
08:07 uvtc What I think you're going to find is a volunteer who's good at technical writing, but who has trouble making sense of the specs.
08:07 uvtc If you can think of a system for that person to succeed, I think you'll have a workable solution.
08:07 masak I'm wondering if I don't consider the book of higher short-term importance/benefit, though. and *it*, for all intents and purposes, has currently stalled.
08:07 mberends uvtc: I like your post. I've tried to be a perl6doc champion for some time, and have been set back and disillusioned by the overambition of the design and the impracticality of the resulting tools.
08:07 masak it's just hard to write a lot of text and keep it consistent and updated.
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08:08 johs39 just reading about perl6. anyone know of its current performance vs python?
08:09 mberends uvtc: I'd like to take a chainsaw to S26 and severely prune it.
08:09 masak johs39: if it's performance you're looking for, take a look at Niecza.
08:09 masak niecza: say "OH HAI johs39!"
08:09 p6eval niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«OH HAI johs39!␤»
08:09 johs39 thanks
08:09 masak johs39: can't say anything offhand about how it stacks up against Python, but I'd guess pretty well except for perhaps startup time.
08:10 johs39 because of mono?
08:10 masak johs39: if you'd be willing to do some measurements of your own, I'm pretty sure we'd be interested.
08:10 uvtc masak: the book is good for those with minimal experience, who want a nice leisurely walk-though. However, one of the most useful programming language docs I've read is the first or 2nd chapter of the Python nutshell book.
08:10 masak johs39: because of a number of things.
08:10 johs39 alright
08:10 masak johs39: https://github.com/sorear/niecza
08:11 mberends johs39: yes. programming Niecza is like programming C# whilst wearing Perl 6 gloves.
08:11 johs39 already there
08:11 johs39 nice
08:12 johs39 what are the main differences between this implementation and rakudo?
08:12 uvtc mberends: regarding S26, I agree. Though, for me, I actually prefer Markdown. Seems like the path of least resistance to getting docs written.
08:12 johs39 i see the feature comparison, but i mean methodology maybe or maybe something else guides it?
08:13 masak johs39: Niecza started out focusing on optimizations. also, it's on .NET, not Parrot.
08:13 uvtc mberends: regarding "disillusioned by the overambition of the design", you're talking about S26 or Perl 6 in general?
08:14 johs39 alrigth that sums it up
08:15 masak johs39: I'm using Niecza currently and finding it pleasingly fast and relatively feature-complete.
08:15 snarkyboojum also don't forget http://perl6.org/compilers/features :)
08:15 masak it doesn't have all of what Rakudo has, for sure. but it's getting there, and what's not there can often be worked around.
08:16 uvtc masak, mberends: Perhaps if perldocs are too ambitious, then a http://perl101.org/ , with an easy way for core devs to provide feedback on bitrotted docs,
08:16 uvtc is the way to go to get started.
08:16 uvtc masak, mberends: I meant, a perl101 for Perl 6, of course.
08:17 masak a perl110 ;)
08:17 uvtc masak: Heh. Though, I don't like the '1' next to the 'l'. I'd prefer perl-6-101.org.
08:20 uvtc Oh, man. Why do I stay up so late. Thanks for the food for thought, all.
08:21 uvtc left #perl6
08:22 masak #perl6. the soup kitchen for thought.
08:29 johs39 niecza built, up and running
08:32 masak johs39: nice. let us know how it goes.
08:32 johs39 alright
08:32 johs39 will do
08:34 johs39 thanks for the info. i'm heading out
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08:34 moritz if somebody starts writing docs, I'll happily take the role of pinging the maintainers about spec changes
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08:40 uvtc masak, wait. I missed your comment. You wrote: "the principle of "worse is better" in action, I guess."
08:40 masak re smosher's p6c message about .reduce and higher arities: it always seemed to me that MMD almost-but-not-quite applies when what we're binding against is a prefix of unknown length of a stream of arguments.
08:40 masak uvtc: yes. I don't mean it in any derogatory way.
08:40 uvtc masa: My point was, if you have those docs in order -- if you have a way to bring that new user up to speed and productive in a very short amount of time --
08:40 masak uvtc: I mean that everyone can agree that Perl 6 is superior on paper, and still elect Perl 5 in practice, partly for the arguments you outline.
08:40 frettled These days, they call it «agile» ;)
08:41 uvtc then you beat "worse is better".
08:41 masak not sure you can "beat" worse is better :P
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08:41 frettled It's theoretically possible to beat "worse is better", but in practice, noone has.  ;)
08:42 masak frettled: no, agile is about development methodology. "worse is better" is about design philosophy.
08:42 uvtc A new user has a new task and is sitting in front of a choice of a few new languages they might use. Which language do they choose? As chromatic points out,
08:43 frettled masak: technicalities, besides, Perl in either incarnation isn't quite worse-is-better.
08:43 frettled (http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html)
08:43 uvtc it's the one with the minimum "distance between zero and just getting something done."
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08:44 uvtc If your "not worse" language has the shorter distance, then you beat "worse is better".
08:45 frettled masak: I'd rather argue that Perl 5 is from the bazaar, while Perl 6 is from the Cathedral.
08:46 masak that's an interesting point, for sure.
08:46 masak I wouldn't say that it's that clear-cut, but in relative terms, sure.
08:46 moritz masak: I'm writing a reply to smosher
08:46 masak moritz++
08:46 moritz ... and p6c
08:46 frettled masak: mm, absolutely not clear-cut.
08:47 masak moritz: do you see what I mean about streamish MMD? it's like the dispatch is "slanted". in fact, it looks a bit more like LTM than the regular MMD.
08:48 moritz masak: yes
08:48 uvtc moritz: your offer is noted. I think it's a good step.
08:48 moritz masak: that's exactly what I'm writing about :-)
08:48 masak \o/
08:48 uvtc moritz: re. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-10-13#i_4561649
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08:49 moritz uvtc: I think one of the mistakes of the previous doc efforts was that they were too humble in going public, thus receiving too little feedback
08:49 moritz uvtc: so my second offer is that I can set up a docs.perl6.org/ system that people can easily hack on
08:49 masak I'd like to add to that that a "spike" solution would probably go a long way.
08:50 masak i.e. a working workflow of editable documentation consisting of only one entry.
08:50 moritz so that it sounds "official" from the start, and we can point people to it. Hopefully others will contribute a nice design, as has happened with several Perl 6 related sites already
08:50 masak and yes, public.
08:50 uvtc moritz: I was writing some docs on my own. I was trying some things out, and remember asking here about lists of lists -- about the difference between (1,2,3) and [1,2,3], I think.
08:51 uvtc This seemed like a very basic thing to ask, but I recall that the answer seemed convoluted (something about one flattening and one not).
08:51 masak lichtkind had some hopes for November in that regard, but November is unfortunately stuck in bitrot-land.
08:51 moritz uvtc: I guess that our understanding of that topic is now much better than it was half a year ago
08:51 moritz at least mine is
08:51 uvtc moritz: The kind of docs I'm thinking of would be basic bread-and-butter, "here's how you do this and here's how it works" type docs.
08:51 moritz (though still not perfect)
08:53 uvtc moritz: I'm not sure a docs.perl6.org would be motivating. I know, for me anyway, I'd rather do something on my own server -- in a definitely-unofficial capacity -- and have it mature a bit before going for docs.perl6.org...
08:54 masak I vote for docs.perl6.org
08:54 moritz uvtc: whatever you prefer. I just found that when things looked official, people looked at it, and provided feedback, and that motivated me
08:54 masak if nothing else, it might scare us into maintaining the quality of the docs :P
08:54 moritz if they don't look official, people say "why isn't this official, if it's the best you have?"
08:56 uvtc Ok. I think I need to leave this soup kitchen of thought, as I'm becoming delirious from lack of sleep. G'night. :)
08:56 uvtc left #perl6
09:00 masak we make it look official. and we choose a cooler name for the effort than "u4x". or better yet, no name at all ;)
09:02 moritz mail to p6c sent.
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09:47 masak it would be fun/interesting to prototype a stream binder as a Perl 6 module.
09:50 moritz challenging to do right :-)
09:50 moritz and would need some badass signature introspection
09:52 masak badass signature introspection -- isn't that what we want, anyway?
09:52 masak this might smoke out missing bits.
09:53 moritz aye
09:53 masak with my limited vision of the problem domain, it seems to me it's "MMD but longest match wins".
09:55 dalek roast: a179684 | moritz++ | S05-mass/rx.t:
09:55 dalek roast: remove bogus use of eval as exception catcher from S05-mass/rx.t
09:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a179684d6b
09:56 moritz one thing that needs care is to not eagerly evaluate the argument stream
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10:10 masak well, one needs to lookahead as far as the longest signature demands. but no further.
10:11 masak slurpy arrays would perhaps work (and always win) with finite streams. they seem downright anti-social with infinite or not-known-to-be-finite streams.
10:11 moritz you can pass a lazy/infinite stream to a slurpy param
10:11 moritz s/pass/bind/
10:12 dalek roast: 1de96d9 | moritz++ | S05-mass/rx.t:
10:12 dalek roast: some initial rakudo fudging
10:12 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1de96d9a23
10:12 masak oh!
10:13 masak for some reason I had it as slurpy arrays always being eager.
10:14 moritz nom: sub f(*@a) { say @a[10] }; f 1 ... *
10:14 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«11␤»
10:15 moritz so you just have to be careful to only do that binding when nothing before it in the signature failed to bind
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10:24 masak right.
10:25 moritz std: sub f(*@a, $b?) { }
10:25 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Cannot put optional positional parameter after variadic parameters at /tmp/Cgx_sJ37xz line 1:â�¤------> [32msub f(*@a, $b?[33mâ��[31m) { }[0mâ�¤Potential difficulties:â�¤  $b is declared but not used at /tmp/Cgx_sJ37xz line 1:â�¤------> [32m…
10:25 moritz is "variadic" the new "slurpy"?
10:25 masak STD has always had it as that, I think.
10:25 moritz std: sub f(|$a, $b?) { }
10:25 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Cannot put optional positional parameter after variadic parameters at /tmp/zuCVdW6uj3 line 1:â�¤------> [32msub f(|$a, $b?[33mâ��[31m) { }[0mâ�¤Potential difficulties:â�¤  $b is declared but not used at /tmp/zuCVdW6uj3 line 1:â�¤------> [32m…
10:25 masak ah, that might be why.
10:25 moritz ok, that isn't slurpy. but variadic
10:26 moritz I see the point.
10:26 masak right.
10:30 moritz on a totally off-topic note I've learned some interesting rules about the convergence of fourier series
10:31 moritz if you fourier-transform a continuous function, the coefficients drop at least as fast as 1/omega
10:32 moritz if it's also a smooth function, they drop at least as fast as 1/omega^2
10:32 moritz (I forgot, needs to be periodic too)
10:33 moritz </off-topic>, self -> lunch
10:54 tadzik can anyone compile Grammar::Debugger?
10:55 jnthn Worked last time I tried it...note it needs the ANSI::TermColor around.
10:56 jnthn tadzik: If it fails in some way, file an issue
10:56 tadzik okay
10:56 tadzik jnthn: ===SORRY!===
10:56 tadzik PAST::Compiler can't compile node of type InterventionPoint
10:57 jnthn tadzik: Hm...thought that got fixed a while ago (the enum fix I did)
10:57 jnthn Does it work non-precompiled?
10:58 jnthn back to $class...
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11:02 TiMBuS nom: sub f($a, $b, *@c) { say $b; say @c[10] }; f 1 ... *
11:02 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected at least 2␤  in sub f at /tmp/fOtGpZ2QKK:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/fOtGpZ2QKK:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/fOtGpZ2QKK:1␤»
11:03 TiMBuS oh yeah
11:03 TiMBuS lesse here
11:03 TiMBuS nom: sub f($a, $b, *@c) { say $b; say @c[10] }; f(|1 ... *)
11:03 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &prefix:<|>␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/pDpXjUlrSD:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/pDpXjUlrSD:1␤»
11:03 TiMBuS not it..
11:05 PacoLinux joined #perl6
11:05 TiMBuS ehhn it doesnt matter, if i force it to flatten to an arglist it will run forever won't it.
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11:07 im2ee Hello
11:10 flussence does nom have any equivalent of ng's <?DEBUG(1)> for regex?
11:13 tadzik nope
11:13 drbean joined #perl6
11:13 tadzik just stumbled upon it
11:13 tadzik well, not that I know of
11:16 tadzik nom: class A { method perl { "foobar" } }; A.new.perl.say
11:16 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«foobar␤»
11:17 tadzik hrm
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11:27 colomon flussence: look for jnthn++'s regex tracer / debugger -- that only works with nom.
11:28 flussence thanks, but you said that about 10 seconds after I figured out what was wrong in my code :)
11:28 flussence Str.match doesn't set $/ apparently :(
11:30 moritz should it?
11:31 flussence dunno... I was trying to use it for an if {} and couldn't figure out why it returned true, but $/.perl showed a failed match
11:32 masak yay, Karen replied via email about my grant application.
11:33 tadzik ....aaaand?
11:33 masak turns out there's been a bit of a delay due to the zombie Web.pm grant.
11:34 moritz are you going to finish it? or GC it?
11:34 masak actually, now that I think about it, that might very well be why Alberto contacted me and Tene about the Web.pm grant the other week.
11:35 masak moritz: I'm/we're going to finish it according to its grant proposal before the end of November, or fail trying.
11:35 masak that's what we decided with Alberto.
11:35 moritz sounds sane.
11:36 masak Karen also asked what I think about D4, and how much of a risk it is. I'll need to mull over that one today before I reply.
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11:40 moritz maybe you could decouple it from the grant in some way
11:40 masak D1..D3 are essentially feature additions, whereas D4 is a refactor. refactors are difficult to assess.
11:40 benabik joined #perl6
11:41 masak moritz: maybe. right now I don't feel that's necessary, though.
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11:43 masak I could try to outline D4 in as much detail as I can discern from my current vantage point.
11:44 masak sort of recursively find milestones within D4.
11:44 masak I thought of doing that in reply to my commenters on the grant proposal post anyway.
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11:48 moritz wouldn't hurt, I think
11:50 masak in fact, that might be the only way to assess the risk involved; to break it down into subtasks.
11:52 masak interesting article about Dart: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/10/javas​cript-has-problems-can-googles-dart-solve-them.ars
12:02 dalek nqp: 15be997 | mls++ | src/HLL/Compiler.pm:
12:02 dalek nqp: Do not let control exceptions slip through. Also adds a handle-control hook.
12:02 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/15be997bb7
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12:48 masak perl6: my $N = Inf; say join " on the wall, ", "$N bottles of beer"; say "take one down, pass it around"; $N--; say "$N bottles of beer on the wall"
12:48 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Inf bottles of beer␤take one down, pass it around␤Inf bottles of beer on the wall␤»
12:48 p6eval ..niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«Infinity bottles of beer␤take one down, pass it around␤Infinity bottles of beer on the wall␤»
12:48 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«sh: /home/p6eval/.cabal/bin/pugs: not found␤»
12:49 masak sorear: is it LHF to make 'Infinity' read 'Inf' above?
12:49 masak niecza: say Inf
12:49 jnthn INFINITE BEER!!!
12:49 p6eval niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«Infinity␤»
12:50 mtk joined #perl6
12:50 masak jnthn: most of it's room temperature, though, since there isn't a fridge large enough to hold it.
12:51 masak perl6: my $N = Inf; say join " on the wall, ", "$N bottles of beer" xx 2; say "take one down, pass it around"; $N--; say "$N bottles of beer on the wall"
12:51 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Inf bottles of beer on the wall, Inf bottles of beer␤take one down, pass it around␤Inf bottles of beer on the wall␤»
12:51 p6eval ..niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«Infinity bottles of beer on the wall, Infinity bottles of beer␤take one down, pass it around␤Infinity bottles of beer on the wall␤»
12:51 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«sh: /home/p6eval/.cabal/bin/pugs: not found␤»
12:51 masak that's better.
12:54 drbean joined #perl6
12:55 dalek evalbot: e94ed5d | moritz++ | evalbot.pl:
12:55 dalek evalbot: exclude pugs from "perl6:" target while its installation is busted; include b for the lulz
12:55 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/e94ed5d070
12:57 p6eval joined #perl6
13:03 masak for the lulz, eh?
13:03 masak maybe I should switch to this 'b' implementation. it seems to be on the rise in popularity...
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13:11 masak perl6: say "b, are you there?"
13:11 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«b, are you there?␤»
13:11 masak \o/
13:11 masak moritz++ # lulz
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13:19 masak perl6: say .perl for (gather for 1, 2, 3 -> $a { for <a b c> -> $b { take ($a, $b) } })
13:19 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«1␤"a"␤1␤"b"␤1␤"c"␤2␤"a"␤​2␤"b"␤2␤"c"␤3␤"a"␤3␤"b"␤3␤"c"␤»
13:19 masak perl6: say .perl for (gather for 1, 2, 3 -> $a { for <a b c> -> $b { take [$a, $b] } })
13:19 p6eval b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«[1, "a"]␤[1, "b"]␤[1, "c"]␤[2, "a"]␤[2, "b"]␤[2, "c"]␤[3, "a"]␤[3, "b"]␤[3, "c"]␤»
13:19 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«1␤"a"␤1␤"b"␤1␤"c"␤2␤"a"␤​2␤"b"␤2␤"c"␤3␤"a"␤3␤"b"␤3␤"c"␤»
13:19 * masak submits rakudobug
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13:21 moritz what's wrong, the .perl?
13:22 moritz nom: say <a b>.perl
13:22 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«("a", "b")␤»
13:22 moritz oh, it flattens
13:23 masak nom: say [<a b>].perl
13:23 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«["a", "b"]␤»
13:23 masak no, the problem isn't .perl, it seems, but &take
13:25 moritz I think we have a ticket about take flattening
13:26 * masak searches for it
13:26 benabik perl6: say .perl for (gather for 1, 2, 3 -> $a { for <a b c> -> $b { take $a, $b } })
13:26 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-43-gf5298c8: OUTPUT«1␤"a"␤1␤"b"␤1␤"c"␤2␤"a"␤​2␤"b"␤2␤"c"␤3␤"a"␤3␤"b"␤3␤"c"␤»
13:26 benabik Right.
13:27 moritz rakudo: say (<a b c d e> Zxx 0,1,0,1,0)
13:27 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«b d␤»
13:27 masak moritz: searches for 'take' and 'flatten' didn't turn up a ticket except the one I just submitted.
13:28 masak moritz: oh, cool!
13:28 moritz rakudo: say (<a b c d e> Zxx 0,1,0,1,0).Str
13:28 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«b d␤»
13:28 moritz so https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ti​cket/Display.html?id=78026 is fixed it seems
13:29 moritz masak: I might have confused it with a test or something
13:29 masak I'll mark #78026 as needstest
13:30 moritz S04-statements/gather.t around line 87
13:30 moritz rakudo: my @list  = gather { take [1,2,3]; take [4,5,6];}; say @list.perl
13:30 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)␤»
13:32 moritz rakudo: sub foo {my @a = (1,2,3,4,5);my $val ;gather {while @a {$val = @a.shift();take $val;}}};say ~( foo() ) ; say foo();
13:32 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5␤1 2 3 4 5␤»
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13:32 eiro hello perl6
13:33 moritz and https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ti​cket/Display.html?id=77302 is teh same as #78026 it seems
13:33 masak heiro!
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13:34 masak ah, decontainerization.
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13:39 dalek roast: 7b2fd5a | moritz++ | S04-statements/gather.t:
13:39 dalek roast: tests for RT #78026, RT #77302, gather/take value decontainerization
13:39 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7b2fd5ab33
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13:44 dalek niecza: 82a2206 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
13:44 dalek niecza: Add method form of rand, pick.
13:44 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/82a2206d8a
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13:49 masak oh look, Real has a .rand method! :)
13:49 masak colomon++ # .pick
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13:50 colomon masak: needed it for my project.  :)
13:50 espadrine joined #perl6
13:50 frettled colomon++ v.nice
13:50 masak is it... a sekkrit project? :>
13:50 colomon no, it's the project I've been talking about for a week or two.  ;)
13:51 colomon not to mention repeatedly asking for help with the Gtk bits of it on here.
13:51 ingy moritz: how did you try to install 7.0.3?
13:51 moritz ingy: download tarball, extract it, ran ./configure --prefix=/some/path && make install
13:56 masak colomon: oh, oh, something with TreeIter, right? right? ;)
13:56 masak ooh! http://www.harmonyware.com​/pictures/gtk-treeview.png
13:57 masak Niecza did that?
13:57 colomon yes
13:57 masak \o/
13:57 masak that's pretty awesome.
13:58 colomon current version also has a (working) column of checkboxes at the front, and records which selections were checked at exit in a log file
13:58 colomon now I just need working pick to so it's easy to randomly select tunes which haven't been checked recently
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14:02 colomon masak: the Gtk code is at https://github.com/colomon/TuneRem​inder/blob/master/bin/practice.pl
14:02 masak ooh
14:02 * masak devours it
14:02 colomon other than a couple of minor weirdnesses, it's very close to what the equivalent C# would be (in terms of Gtk calls)
14:03 colomon ie this is a practical, real-world UI that works in Niecza now.
14:03 masak heh, both you and mberends go for sub names in CamelCase ;)
14:03 moritz does it feel responsive?
14:03 ingy moritz: would you mind running it again and sending me the output?
14:04 masak and method names.
14:04 moritz ingy: is it not enought to know that it hits http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/5005 and dies with the same error as in that ticket?
14:04 masak colomon: it's refreshing to see Perl 6 code used in this way.
14:04 masak for a GUI, I mean. not the CamelCase :P
14:05 ingy moritz: i've looked at all that, I just want to see the full run failure
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14:07 colomon moritz: I'm not sure the actual interaction parts of the UI are enough to be representative, but certainly the checkbox checking portion of it feels completely responsive.
14:08 colomon masak: I've always used CamelCase for subs in C++, and since I started with a hunk of mberends' Gtk code, I just followed his conventions without thinking about it.
14:09 moritz ingy: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/ghc-7.0.3.build.log
14:10 moritz ingy: that's the transcript from script(1)
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14:10 colomon masak: The extremely awesome thing (even better than having a working UI for Perl 6!) is that (as far as I know) there's nothing magic going on to specifically support Gtk.  I think any mono/.NET/C# library can be called from Niecza this way.  Which means there's actually a chance I may be working on a Perl 6 CAD program before the year is out....
14:13 masak woo
14:13 masak that's great news!
14:14 frettled wow!
14:15 * colomon hopes he's not over-promising what niecza can do...
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14:30 ingy moritz: it looks like 5005 was resolved on March 12th and 7.0.3 was released March 27th :\
14:30 ingy not sure how this could be happening :\
14:30 moritz ingy: but in which branch was it resolved?
14:30 moritz ingy: I've also tried it with 7.0.4, and it's the same error
14:31 ingy I'll ask around
14:36 TimToady BBC says Dennis Richie has died
14:37 masak aye :/
14:37 pmurias joined #perl6
14:37 masak so does Twitter.
14:37 TimToady *Ritchie
14:37 moritz and hackernews. And reddit.
14:38 PacoLinux_ joined #perl6
14:38 pmurias colomon: what is the CAD software currently written in?
14:38 masak rip dmr
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14:48 PerlJam what?
14:49 masak Requiescat in pace, Dennis MacAlistair Ritchie.
14:50 PerlJam :(
14:51 PerlJam The one thing about getting old that I'm not sure I'm going to handle too well is everyone dying.
14:52 tyatpi_ joined #perl6
14:52 PerlJam (particularly when it's me :)
14:52 moritz PerlJam: oh, when it's you, you won't have to handle it :-)
14:55 masak PerlJam: over the years, I've gotten the feeling that the ones who are best at handling their own death are Tibetans. they consider it an acquired skill. consider checking it out.
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15:05 colomon pmurias: for $work I do CAD libraries in C++.  One of the geometry engine companies I work with has a C# version of their geometry engine.
15:10 ingy moritz: I just talked to folk on #haskell and they say the fix did not go in until 7.2 and suggested 7.2.
15:10 PacoLinux_ joined #perl6
15:10 ingy moritz: then au suggested 7.2 as well
15:11 ingy moritz: you don't get platform but supposedly we don't need it
15:11 moritz ingy: problem is, I don't get Cabal either
15:11 ingy moritz: it's just sugar modules basically
15:11 ingy moritz: soo... I'll script it all for you
15:12 ingy bbl
15:12 moritz ingy: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-10-12#i_4557943
15:12 moritz ingy: that's what happen when I try to install Cabal from tar ball on top of 7.2.1
15:13 ingy after nuking .cabal?
15:13 moritz yes
15:16 sjohnson perl6.pals
15:19 masak greetings, sjohnson
15:19 sjohnson yo masak
15:22 tadzik ( `ー´)
15:22 tadzik or, ( `ー´)/
15:22 masak ;)
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15:27 masak perl6: class perl6 { method pals { <sjohnson tadzik masak> } }; say so 'sjohnson' eq any perl6.pals
15:27 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
15:27 sjohnson tadzik: :)
15:27 sjohnson masak++ # programming powar
15:28 masak just goofing off.
15:32 sjohnson (=゚ω゚=)
15:33 sjohnson kind of interesting this syntax though
15:33 sjohnson what does "so" do?
15:33 moritz it so boolifies your result
15:33 moritz opposite of 'not'
15:34 masak sjohnson: same as prefix:<?> does, but with looser precedence.
15:34 masak rakudo: say ?42; say so 42
15:34 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::True␤»
15:34 sjohnson that's handy
15:35 masak well, it lets me skip the parentheses in the above case :)
15:35 * moritz adds "what is &so?" to his FAQ list
15:35 masak perl6: class perl6 { method pals { <sjohnson tadzik masak> } }; say ?('sjohnson' eq any perl6.pals)
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15:35 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
15:36 benabik I wonder if we can make "does so" valid syntax.  :-D
15:36 masak moritz: "...and why do I seem to need it when I'm playing around with junctions?"
15:36 sjohnson perl6: say 4?
15:36 moritz masak: that's not frequently asked here
15:36 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 4?"␤»
15:36 p6eval ..niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Confused at /tmp/yAykPloVwx line 1:�------> [32msay 4[33m�[31m?[0m��Parse failed��»
15:36 p6eval ..b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say 4?"␤»
15:36 sjohnson perl6: say ?4
15:36 masak moritz: people ask "what's so?" quite a lot.
15:36 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
15:36 moritz nom: my $x = 3; $x does so Whatever; say so $x
15:36 sjohnson perl6: say ?(4)
15:36 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
15:36 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<does>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu $obj, Positional @roles)␤:(Mu $obj, Mu $role)␤␤  in sub infix:<does> at src/gen/CORE.setting:7364␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/O7qJUQqxuh:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/O7qJUQqxuh:1␤»…
15:36 moritz masak: that's why I put it on my FAQ list :-)
15:36 masak moritz: we give them the immediate semantic answer, but don't often tell them why we put it there.
15:37 masak moritz: as long as you explain why it's needed, I'm happy :)
15:37 moritz masak: currently I'm collecting questions, not answers
15:37 masak right.
15:37 masak consider it a reminder to myself, then.
15:37 masak there's often a surface question and a deeper question.
15:39 moritz sure
15:39 masak "what's &so ?" -- surface answer: "it boolifies a value" -- deep answer: "it causes the junctional value there to collapse"
15:39 moritz masak: if you recall my 5-to-6 series, you might remember that I tried really hard to answer the deep questions too :-)
15:39 masak you did indeed.
15:40 masak that's why I keep linking people to it ;)
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15:46 masak by the way, it seems good practice to me to do &so or equiv on any junction before returning it from a routine.
15:46 masak I call it the principle of "don't return junctions" :P
15:46 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:46 masak may need future refinement, but so far it's working out just fine.
15:46 moritz so far I've never been tempted to return junctions from subroutines
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15:47 masak right. exactly.
15:47 moritz it's mostly not what the caller expects, and thus bad
15:47 moritz I use them only as matchers
15:47 moritz so either I smart-match against them, or I pass them to a routine or callback that does
15:47 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:47 PerlJam that sounds like a challenge for someone to build a "junction oriented" program where every sub returns a junction
15:48 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:48 masak I use them (1) in conditionals, (2) as matchers, (3) in 'where' clauses.
15:48 masak though arguably (3) is a special case of (2).
15:48 moritz PerlJam: in roast there's a small program that solves integer equations by brute-forcing them with junctions
15:48 dukeleto joined #perl6
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15:49 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:49 moritz it's not exactly a program that returns junctions all over, but it's the closest form of junction abuse in that direction which I've seen so far
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15:53 jferrero TimToady, Did you meet Dennis Ritchie?
15:53 dukeleto joined #perl6
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15:55 masak decommute &
15:56 * PerlJam corresponded with dmr via email almost exactly 1 year ago
15:56 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:57 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:57 TimToady jferrero: yes, we were at the same conference quite a few times
15:57 PerlJam (I was asking him what he thought about how long C would live back in the 1970s because on #perl6 we were talking about Perl as a hundred year language)
15:58 mls_ niecza: while 0 {LAST {say "hello"}}
15:58 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Action method statement_prefix:LAST not yet implemented at /tmp/tTWWOYi1Ii line 1:â�¤------> [32mwhile 0 {LAST {say "hello"}[33mâ��[31m}[0mâ�¤â�¤â�¤Unhandled Exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in class Strâ�¤  at /h…
15:59 moritz mls_: interesting edge case :-)
15:59 PerlJam and back then, he had no idea that C would even *exist* in 2010
15:59 mls_ I think it should say hello
16:00 moritz what's the last element of an empty list? :-)
16:00 PerlJam mls_: whyfor? The loop is never entered, ergo it's never executed a"last" time
16:00 moritz but I can see your reasoning
16:00 TimToady it has to be outside of the while test in any case
16:00 TimToady which is officially outside of the block
16:01 moritz PerlJam: I think LAST is more of an AFTER -- you can't know if an iteration is the last
16:01 moritz PerlJam: you can just save a reference to the LAST closure, and execute it *after* the last iteration
16:01 TimToady so while cond { LAST stuff } turns into something more like { while cond {}; stuff }
16:01 GlitchMr joined #perl6
16:01 GlitchMr I was disconnected
16:02 moritz TimToady: so in plain English, the LAST phaser fires even if the body wasn't ever executed. Right?
16:02 mls_ except is sees the lexicals from the block?
16:02 TimToady yes, it also has to act as a closure
16:02 GlitchMr ... and in log I don't see question which I've asked...
16:02 sjohnson wow, dennis ritchie is dead
16:02 GlitchMr split //, "AAA"
16:02 GlitchMr How can I do it in Perl 6?
16:02 GlitchMr Just asking...
16:02 moritz GlitchMr: "AAA".comb
16:02 TimToady but if the loop is never entered, the closure isn't closed :)
16:03 PerlJam That seems like an artifact of implementation more than anything else.
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16:05 colomon Won't the lexicals from the block be kind of weird?
16:05 moritz PerlJam: it's not just an artifact, unless you count computability questions as artifacts too
16:05 TimToady the thing is, it may be very inefficient to keep reclosing the closure each time through the loop
16:06 colomon TimToady: true, I guess
16:06 TimToady if it's being used as a "finally" without access to lexicals, then there's no problem, I suppose
16:07 TimToady "ya pays for whatcha uses"
16:08 PerlJam moritz: so ... would you also expect LEAVE phasers to fire on loops that never execute?
16:09 PerlJam perhaps we should rename START to BEFORE and create a corresponding AFTER
16:09 moritz PerlJam: no, because LEAVE is per invocation (which means "per iteration" in a loop)
16:09 PerlJam (START has always looked a little lonely to me)
16:10 PerlJam Though I guess changing START to BEFORE does muck with the semantics.
16:11 TimToady there is nothing corresponding to START because we can't know the future
16:11 TimToady START does something at first use, and there's no way to determined "last use"
16:11 TimToady *mine
16:12 TimToady at least, no way to determine that till END time, at which point you might as well use END
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16:13 moritz .oO( the END is nigh )
16:13 TimToady it's sort nice that "end" can be construed as the antonym of both "begin" and "start"
16:13 TimToady *sorta
16:13 PerlJam no way to know the future?  I thought this was #perl6?!?  Impossible things become possible all the time!   ;-)
16:14 TimToady though the words "begin" and "start" don't indicate their asap vs alap relationship in p6
16:14 PerlJam in any case, having a LAST phaser fire on a loop that is never entered would be tres surprising.
16:15 TimToady maybe we should have "INIT", "EAGERINIT", and "LAZYINIT" instead ;)
16:16 ingy moritz: can someone else host the pugs p6eval ?
16:16 PerlJam .oO( INIT to WINIT )
16:16 moritz ingy: I can't make sense of that question. Care to rephrase?
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16:17 ingy moritz: the eval bots or whatever you call them, run on your machine?
16:17 moritz ingy: well, on diakopter's
16:17 moritz it could run on a different machine, but it would be lots of effort migrate
16:17 ingy i see
16:18 moritz of course you can run a second copy that only handles pugs
16:18 moritz feel free to do that
16:18 ingy ok. is there a writeup?
16:18 moritz no, just a repo. perl6/evalbot/ on github.
16:18 ingy ok
16:18 * moritz -> decommute
16:24 slavik1 joined #perl6
16:25 * PerlJam reads chromatic
16:28 [Coke] (tickets) as someone who has gone through a LOT of tickets this week, I'd rather have 4 tickets that all have the same root cause but we didn't know it that are all then easy to close later than 0 tickets.
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17:05 * colomon is reading chromatic
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17:11 GlitchMr rakudo: say 0.1+0.2-0.3
17:11 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:11 GlitchMr ...
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17:12 moritz perl6: ...
17:12 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1:  ( no output )
17:12 p6eval ..niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: >>>Stub code executed␤  at /tmp/KTMxvXfKYX line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2160 (CORE C1034_ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2161 (CORE module-CORE @ 58) ␤  at /home/…
17:12 GlitchMr This is why floats are weir
17:12 GlitchMr d
17:14 moritz what's weird about 0.1 + 0.2 - 0.3 being 0?
17:14 TimToady those aren't floats
17:15 TimToady rakudo: say (0.1 + 0.2 - 0.3).WHAT
17:15 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
17:15 TimToady rakudo: say (0.1 + 0.2 - 0.3).perl
17:15 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«0/1␤»
17:16 GlitchMr rakudo: e**pi-pi
17:16 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &pi-pi␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/ORVDFFg1Io:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/ORVDFFg1Io:1␤»
17:16 GlitchMr rakudo: e**pi - pi
17:16 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd:  ( no output )
17:17 GlitchMr rakudo: say e**pi - pi
17:17 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«19.9990999409208␤»
17:17 masak TimToady: I'm surprised at the notion that LAST runs after a 0-iteration loops. if nothing else, it creates a strange assymmetry with FIRST.
17:17 TimToady yes, I'm thinking it shouldn't run on 0-times, since the closure makes no sense
17:18 masak I'm in full support of it not running on 0-times.
17:18 masak if you want AFTER semantics, put it after the loop ;)
17:18 molaf joined #perl6
17:18 masak if you wanted access to lexicals in the loop without ever running the loop, see a shrink :P
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17:20 TimToady it also, coincidentally, allows the LAST block to be rewritten as a goto, if the conditional test can be inlined
17:21 masak oh man. in a year or two, I'll take those phasers for granted as part of my programmer vocabulary. and then I'll miss them greatly in all other languages. :)
17:21 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:21 TimToady an important optimization will be figuring out which loop blocks don't actually have to become closures
17:21 masak aye.
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17:23 moritz masak: there are several solutions to that problem which are all not really desirable/possible
17:23 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:23 moritz :-)
17:23 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:24 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:24 masak to what problem?
17:25 masak GlitchMr: 0.1 isn't a Num (floating-point) in Perl 6, it's a Rat.
17:25 moritz masak: missing phasers in other languages
17:25 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:25 masak WORLD DOMINATION
17:26 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
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17:26 moritz for example :-)
17:26 masak er, I mean, successful employment of PR to increase the mindshare of Perl 6.
17:26 masak of course.
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17:27 moritz that's what I read from the start :-)
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17:27 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:27 masak dukeleto: would you stop doing that? :/
17:27 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
17:28 masak backlog space doesn't exactly grow on trees.
17:28 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:28 ashleydev gosh think if it *was* paper...
17:28 dukeleto joined #perl6
17:30 moritz maybe it is paper, and somebody prints out every day of #perl6 backlog
17:30 masak if that printer ever runs out of ink, we're hosed. o.O
17:30 masak oh wait
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17:36 [Coke] following up on the "use perl6 now" thread from earlier: for me to use perl6 for projects, I'd need it to either be a browser scripting language or an awesome middle tier web language. Or maybe possibly a PL/SQL replacement. And then I'd have a hard sell internally unless someone was selling support.
17:36 [Coke] So I've pretty much ruled it out in that niche.
17:36 dukeleto masak: sorry, my irc proxy gets into fits occasionally
17:37 masak dukeleto: I'm just glad you're OK :)
17:40 dukeleto masak: i use dircproxy, and sometimes I forget to register my nick and then freenode and dircproxy start dueling with each other
17:40 dukeleto masak: or, i forget to identify for my registered nick
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17:50 masak ah.
17:52 diakopter was the "use perl6 now" thread on irc or email?
17:53 arthur-_ joined #perl6
17:54 [Coke] discussion on IRC about chromatic's latest blog posting. maybe his last 2.
17:54 [Coke] about 10 hours ago.
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18:00 masak diakopter: tl;dr: it's 2011. why aren't there more overwhelming reasons to use Perl 6 rather than some other language?
18:03 * diakopter blackogs
18:04 sjohnson diakopter: hi
18:06 diakopter hi
18:13 sjohnson how's it going?
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18:26 [Coke] moritz: is S05-mass/rx.t now legitimately unfudgable?
18:27 [Coke] (it's no longer crashing, just failing some tests (and passing some TODOs)
18:40 * ingy types his first irc msg from oneiric ocelot
18:41 [Coke] phenny: ask moritze if S05-mass/rx.t now legitimately unfudgable? (it's no longer crashing, just failing some tests (and passing some TODOs)
18:41 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when moritze is around.
18:41 [Coke] phenny: ask moritz if S05-mass/rx.t now legitimately unfudgable? (it's no longer crashing, just failing some tests (and passing some TODOs)
18:41 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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18:42 ingy unity seems better than on natty
18:42 ingy progress++
18:42 * TimToady spent >< that much time futzing with unity before switching
18:43 * ingy spent > < that much
18:43 ingy TimToady: are you still on natty?
18:44 masak why are you all doing Cartman impressions?
18:44 ingy masak: wanna pair on a pugsbot?
18:44 masak tempting. please specify task some more.
18:45 ingy masak: masak you ssh into my server and join my screen session and we install pugs and p6eval
18:46 diakopter ingy: what do you mean by pugsbot
18:46 ingy pugs: say "fail"
18:46 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«sh: /home/p6eval/.cabal/bin/pugs: not found␤»
18:46 diakopter surely that is fixable.
18:46 flussence perl6: fail "say"
18:46 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     'fail' used at line 1â�¤â�¤â�¤Unhandled Exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 766 (CORE die @ 2) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1136 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 36) â�¤â€¦
18:46 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1:  ( no output )
18:47 TimToady ingy: yes, but I hit the upgrade button > < minutes ago :)
18:47 masak ingy: do you simply mean fixing p6eval?
18:48 masak sounds easier than writing a whole new bot for Pugs.
18:48 TimToady ingy: does the upgrade switch back to unity if you switched away?
18:48 ingy TimToady: I'll give you a unity report next week
18:48 ingy in person
18:48 moritz [Coke]: yes, you can (un)fudge rx.t if you have the necessary patience :-)
18:48 phenny moritz: 18:41Z <[Coke]> ask moritz if S05-mass/rx.t now legitimately unfudgable? (it's no longer crashing, just failing some tests (and passing some TODOs)
18:49 ingy masak: moritz cannot install pugs on diakopter's machine and after 24 hours of investigation I am convinced it cannot easily be done
18:49 moritz I've fudged out the missing <?before> and fixed up the evals, but didn't want to do the rest
18:49 ingy masak: so moritz said we could just install p6eval elsewhere
18:49 masak ah.
18:50 moritz (at least a copy of p6eval that powers pugs)
18:50 masak pugseval :)
18:50 * ingy ♥ lightbulbs
18:50 * ingy hates the default terminal font in unity
18:52 ingy masak: if you are interested it should be really easy...
18:52 ingy
18:52 diakopter moritz: did you try installing older version of ghc?
18:53 masak it sounds like fun but
18:53 masak I'm afraid I don't have time to pair up tonight. :/
18:53 ingy diakopter: moritz tried EVERYTHING
18:53 moritz diakopter: yes; there pugs' dependencies don'T build
18:53 moritz diakopter: I've tried 4 different GHC versions
18:53 ingy it's an insane set of fail
18:53 masak nice. I've never seen "don'T" before, but it kinda makes sense.
18:53 Holy_Cow left #perl6
18:53 ingy even au gives up
18:54 masak ingy: but you installed Pugs locally, didn't you?
18:54 moritz masak: it's the "shift key still pressed from typing '"
18:54 ingy yes
18:55 moritz masak: problem is that the kernel on p6eval's host is old-ish
18:55 masak oh!
18:55 moritz masak: and while GHC would probably build, but the GHC that is used for bootstrapping has been compiled a newer kernel...
18:55 ingy haskell is having some growing pains
18:56 masak upgrading the kernel not an option?
18:56 moritz and has thus selected a newer version of a syscall which my old kernel doesn't help
18:56 diakopter nope :(
18:56 moritz masak: not so easy on a virtualized machine
18:56 masak ah, right.
18:56 masak sounds like Mr Different Server to the rescue, then.
18:56 ingy moritz: which is fixed in 7.2, but then cabal fails, yes?
18:57 moritz there's a fix for GHC, but it's on in The New Version (7.2)
18:57 moritz but the rest of the toolchain doesn't work on 7.2
18:57 ingy masak: let me set up my pair station
18:57 ingy bbiab
18:57 moritz (there's a big warning on the GHC download page that you should rather use 7.0.3. Which I can't. Thank you)
18:58 masak ingy: I... I don't have time... :/
18:59 masak ingy: I'm in the middle of doing some residual $dayjob and working on the macros branch and doing a thing with Niecza and looking for a new apartment...
19:01 ingy ok
19:03 ingy TimToady: gnome classic is not installed by default :)
19:03 ingy TimToady: sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback
19:03 ingy seems to be the trick
19:05 ingy masak: ping
19:05 masak pong
19:06 [Coke] moritz: it will be a welcome relaxation after working on CF all day.
19:06 ingy masak: get back to doing some residual $dayjob and working on the macros branch and doing a thing with Niecza and  looking for a new apartment...
19:06 ingy :)
19:08 masak yeah...
19:08 masak sorry for not being more available right now.
19:08 masak it's fun to pair up with you, ingy :)
19:09 masak I'm hoping we'll have some fun together in PugsClub in the near future.
19:09 ingy TimToady: ironically (for some definition of ironic) when you try to install that it will try to get the flash plugin from a special url, because the flash plugin will fail during your upgrade, and that url is being ddossed at the moment, so have fun using your forced Unity trial :)
19:10 moritz that's just because flash is nasty non-free software, and can't be distributed by Debian|Ubuntu directly
19:10 TimToady well, I guess I'm gonna be helping with that ddos
19:11 moritz sometimes I believe that RMS is more right than he has any right to be
19:12 TimToady 'course, I use the noflash plugin...
19:12 sjohnson someone from #gnu asked why a program i was working on wasn't free
19:12 TimToady but it's still gonna try to install it, I'm sure
19:12 sjohnson my answer:  cause i'd lose my job?
19:13 sjohnson </gpl rant>
19:13 ingy oh right, Unity takes over the Super key. Therefore useless...
19:13 tadzik if you didn't have a job you'd have to eat stuff from your feet *SCNR*
19:13 TimToady yes, that griped me last time
19:14 ingy sjohnson: what's wrong with losing your job?
19:15 sjohnson tadzik: if i didn't have a job...  ( `ー´)would become -> (`-')
19:15 tadzik :)
19:15 sjohnson ingy: i'd die of starvation?
19:15 tadzik that'd be sad
19:15 sjohnson well, i don't think i'd die.
19:15 ingy sjohnson: I doubt it
19:15 sjohnson but i'd be in financial woe
19:15 sjohnson i'm already broke enough as it is!
19:17 ingy sjohnson: give away all your possessions and join the Cult of Perl 6
19:17 ingy We hang out in airports
19:17 sjohnson heh
19:18 masak preaching about butteryflies
19:18 masak argh
19:18 masak battery flies.
19:19 sjohnson showering ourseves with wet paper towels in the restrooms
19:19 sjohnson ourselves*
19:19 masak living the dream.
19:20 moritz ingy: if you give away all of your posessions, how do you use Perl 6, without a computer? :-)
19:21 ingy moritz: you think I'm using a computer?
19:21 slavik1 moritz: is a computer required to compile and use perl? why not do it in your head?
19:21 moritz ingy: I'm pretty sure
19:22 moritz slavik1: memory constraints :-)
19:22 ingy tell me about it
19:22 slavik1 moritz: need more paper
19:22 moritz ingy: how do you use IRC, without any form of computer?
19:22 ingy oneiric has 5.12.4
19:22 masak moritz: abacus.
19:22 tadzik fair enough, I'm staying on arch
19:24 ingy moritz: it's hard to explain... very mystical...
19:25 GlitchMr niecza> Bool::False::False
19:25 GlitchMr Funny merge failure ::CORE:30::False (Bool, False)
19:25 GlitchMr lolwhat?
19:25 GlitchMr niecza: Bool::False::False
19:25 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Funny merge failure ::CORE:30::False (Bool, False)␤  at  line 0 (boot-MAIN @ 0) ␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 766 (CORE die @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaBackendDotnet.…
19:25 GlitchMr rakudo: Bool::False::False
19:25 p6eval rakudo 3e66bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "Bool::Fals"␤»
19:25 GlitchMr ...
19:25 GlitchMr std: Bool::False::False
19:25 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    'Bool::False::False' used at line 1â�¤Check failedâ�¤FAILED 00:01 118mâ�¤Â»
19:25 GlitchMr perl6: Bool::False::False
19:25 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Funny merge failure ::CORE:30::False (Bool, False)␤  at  line 0 (boot-MAIN @ 0) ␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 766 (CORE die @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaBackendDotnet.…
19:25 p6eval ..b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«Cannot find sub Bool::False::False␤  in main program body at line 1:src/metamodel/RoleToInstanceApplier.nqp␤»
19:25 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "Bool::Fals"␤»
19:26 GlitchMr OK...
19:26 ingy TimToady: I survived the ddos
19:26 ingy brb
19:27 TimToady "Funny merge failure" is a funny error message :)
19:27 sjohnson is Fals on purpose?
19:27 TimToady but I imagine it really means "failure to unify different notions of global"
19:27 moritz niecza seems to full of those
19:27 sjohnson 4 letter opposite of True?
19:28 moritz slavik1: there is no Fals,  except where 'False' was cut off
19:28 moritz erm sorry, meant sjohnson
19:28 masak "C3 wedgie"!
19:28 sjohnson :)
19:28 sjohnson oic
19:28 GlitchMr perl6: /[([])]/
19:28 moritz masak: that's the one I was thikning of
19:28 p6eval nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at line 1, near ")]/"␤»
19:28 p6eval ..niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/EUMfm0n7pI line 1:�------> [32m/[([[33m�[31m])]/[0m��Parse failed��»
19:28 p6eval ..b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "/[([])]/"␤»
19:29 TimToady niecza has that one nailed
19:30 moritz aye
19:30 GlitchMr perl6: Bool->new
19:30 masak worth rakudobug reporting?
19:30 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unsupported use of -> as postfix; in Perl 6 please use either . to call a method, or whitespace to delimit a pointy block at /tmp/1g4FWnF5xg line 1:â�¤------> [32mBool->[33mâ��[31mnew[0mâ�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
19:30 p6eval ..b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of -> as postfix; in Perl 6 please use either . to call a method, or whitespace to delimit a pointy block at line 22, near "new"␤»
19:30 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of -> as postfix; in Perl 6 please use either . to call a method, or whitespace to delimit a pointy block at line 1, near "new"␤»
19:30 TimToady not really
19:30 moritz masak: nope, known
19:30 GlitchMr ... ok...
19:30 GlitchMr perl6: Bool.new
19:30 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206:  ( no output )
19:30 TimToady it's just the Non-convergence-with-STD bug
19:30 moritz masak: nqp/rakudo don't really recognize null patterns
19:31 TimToady perl6: say Bool.new
19:31 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
19:31 GlitchMr Think negatively... with new falses!
19:31 TimToady ooh, widespread agreement for something completely unspecced!
19:32 moritz TimToady: exactly my thought :-)
19:32 GlitchMr I was trying to do .new just because of Perl 5 :P.
19:33 GlitchMr I was wondering of reaction for this...
19:33 moritz probably because an Int holding the boolean value internally is initlialized to 0 or so
19:33 ingy TimToady: they seem to have made gnome classic feel really crappy
19:33 ingy it's definitely not the same
19:33 TimToady GlitchMr: but Perl 5 has no Bool type, so I don't know what you were expecting :)
19:33 GlitchMr Well, it's object :P
19:33 moritz what does it object to?
19:34 masak TimToady: it's spec'd implicitly.
19:34 GlitchMr So I was wondering what would happen if I would do .new on it
19:34 masak Bool::False is isomorphic to 0, the default default.
19:34 ingy TimToady: you should study ubuntu's techniques to push people from Perl Classic to Perl Unity\w6
19:34 GlitchMr perl6: Int.new
19:34 GlitchMr perl6: say Int.new
19:34 GlitchMr right...
19:34 masak Perl Plurality
19:35 p6eval nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1, niecza v10-44-g82a2206:  ( no output )
19:35 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidCastException: Cannot cast from source type to destination type.␤  at Niecza.CtxIntStr.Get (Niecza.Variable obj) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at Niecza.CtxBoxify`1[System.String].Get (Niecza.Variable obj) [0x0000…
19:35 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd, b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«0␤»
19:35 GlitchMr ...?
19:35 GlitchMr It's ok for Niecza until it has to actually say it... O_o
19:35 masak GlitchMr: when you don't spell out your questions, it's hard to know what you're asking.
19:35 masak yeah, that's odd.
19:35 GlitchMr I'm actually surprised about it
19:36 masak maybe it's evaluating lazily.
19:36 masak :)
19:36 masak niecza: Int.new; say "alive"
19:36 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«alive␤»
19:36 masak huh.
19:36 moritz niecza: Int.new.gist; say 'alive'
19:36 GlitchMr masak, you're not using that value
19:36 masak niecza: my $a = Int.new; say "alive"
19:36 TimToady perl6: say 1 + '2x'
19:36 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidCastException: Cannot cast from source type to destination type.␤  at Niecza.CtxIntStr.Get (Niecza.Variable obj) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at Niecza.CtxBoxify`1[System.String].Get (Niecza.Variable obj) [0x0000…
19:36 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/1YdrBdc5NW line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m$a = Int.new; say "alive"[0mâ�¤â�¤aliveâ�¤Â»
19:36 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.FormatException: Unknown char: x␤  at System.Double.Parse (System.String s, NumberStyles style, IFormatProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at System.Double.Parse (System.String s, IFormatProvider provider) […
19:36 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu, Mu %_)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:601␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1941␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1941␤  in block <anon> at /t…
19:36 p6eval ..b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«3␤»
19:36 masak ah :)
19:37 GlitchMr It's ok to do 1 + '2x'... until you have some weird characters
19:37 moritz nom doesn't really handle failures gracefully
19:37 GlitchMr "x" is unexpected... weird...
19:37 TimToady and niecza doesn't handle it at all :)
19:37 moritz do you expect an 'x' when parsing a string as a number?
19:37 GlitchMr Nope
19:38 PacoLinux joined #perl6
19:38 moritz so why do you find it weird that x is unexpected?
19:38 GlitchMr C:\Users\Konrad\Desktop\run\run>php
19:38 GlitchMr <?php echo 1 + '2x';
19:38 GlitchMr ^Z
19:38 GlitchMr 3
19:38 GlitchMr But that's probably not reason
19:38 GlitchMr Strict typing is better :).
19:38 PerlJam GlitchMr: this is #perl6, not #php6  :)
19:38 GlitchMr lol
19:38 GlitchMr There is no PHP 6 :P.
19:39 GlitchMr That was PHP 5.3.8...
19:40 GlitchMr Perl 5 also does it like PHP
19:40 ingy TimToady: I feel like gnome has been made non-acceptable option. So looks like I'll have to futz >               <
19:40 GlitchMr But then, I'm not sure if it's good
19:40 GlitchMr And PHP was made for parsing data coming from Internet which might be intentionally invalid to make errors.
19:40 ingy TimToady: I'll be interested to get your take
19:41 GlitchMr So yeah...
19:41 GlitchMr Except Perl 5 seems to make warnings in strict mode
19:41 GlitchMr Argument "2x" isn't numeric in addition (+) at - line 1.
19:41 GlitchMr 3
19:41 GlitchMr So yeah....
19:41 GlitchMr PHP doesn't care...
19:41 moritz warnings and strict are orthogonal
19:42 moritz wow, cabal seems to repeat the mistakes from CPAN.pm
19:42 moritz Pugs-6.2.13.20111008 depends on haskeline-0.6.4.3 which failed to install.
19:42 moritz haskeline-0.6.4.3 failed during the building phase. The exception was:
19:42 moritz ExitFailure 1
19:42 GlitchMr PHP is probably only programming language which doesn't care at all about 1 + '2x';...
19:42 PerlJam yet warnings and strict always seem to be mentioned in the same utterance ;)
19:42 moritz so it caches build failures, but doesn't tell me what went wrong the last time
19:43 PerlJam moritz: it doesn't write a log somewhere?
19:43 masak PerlJam: that's because they're both good ideas, not because they're the same idea :)
19:43 moritz PerlJam: dunno. If it does, it doesn't tell me about it
19:43 PerlJam masak: sure ... like PB&J or beans & rice or pots & kettles  :)
19:52 masak PerlJam: I had to look up "PB&J". you must be from the US. :P
19:54 PerlJam masak: stroopwafels & icing then ?
19:54 PerlJam (what goes with stroopwafels?)
19:54 PerlJam masak: nah, I'm not from the US ... I'm from Texas  ("it's like a whole other country" according to the tourism ads I see on TV)
19:54 * TimToady misses BLTs
19:55 TimToady Texans *think* they are from a different country, but Californians really are...
19:55 masak PerlJam: do they say "whole other" or "whole 'nother"? the latter sounds more genuine to my ears.
19:56 ingy TimToady: Gnome will be going the way of the BLT for you very soon
19:56 PerlJam masak: you know ... I'm not really sure.  I never listen that closely
19:56 TimToady in which case I will preach dis-unity with Ubuntu
19:56 ingy I for one welcome our new Unity overlords :\
19:56 ingy actually it's not called Unity anymore
19:57 ingy it's called Ubuntu
19:57 ingy hmm
19:57 ingy what does that remind me of...
19:57 PerlJam masak: http://www.traveltex.com/  "It's like a whole other country"  (at least in print ;)
19:57 ingy begins with a P, I think
19:57 TimToady maybe I should cancel my upgrade
19:57 ingy TimToady: not a bad idea
19:58 PerlJam unity -- just counting the number of people that actually like it
19:58 ingy you will not have what you had before, and it seems to have thrown away many settings
19:58 ingy gnome is ass
19:58 masak PerlJam: :)
19:59 ingy Uwhatever is the only way to go
19:59 masak PerlJam: I think it's mostly in spoken language that it happens. or written language wanting to mimic spoken language.
19:59 ingy but I'm already tripping and applying bandaids
19:59 awwaiid xmonad works pretty good in ubuntu :)
20:00 ingy then again, that's the spirit of Perl 6 in general
20:00 TimToady ah well, Ubuntu was good while it lasted
20:00 awwaiid (but I switched back to debian in protest anyway)
20:01 ingy TimToady: the new stuff looks a whoole lot better than 6 months ago
20:01 ingy kinda like Perl 6
20:01 TimToady I'll let other people guinea pig it for me
20:01 TimToady not interested in losing my key mappings
20:02 ingy I didn't lose all of them :)
20:03 kfo_ joined #perl6
20:05 TimToady bbl &
20:05 djanatyn rd                                                                 |<automatous> exit                                                       [13:01]
20:05 djanatyn Ermm, sorry about that.
20:07 diakopter at least it was only one line :D
20:09 djanatyn yep :)
20:14 dalek specs: 1770286 | diakopter++ | S05-regex.pod:
20:14 dalek specs: S05 typo
20:14 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/177028647d
20:24 huf joined #perl6
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20:34 soh_cah_toa joined #perl6
20:35 Lma joined #perl6
20:37 [Coke] S05-mass/rx.t is slooow
20:45 dual joined #perl6
20:53 masak [Coke]: probably not unusually slow, just the single largest test file in roast.
20:53 ingy sudo apt-get install compizconfig-settings-manager
20:53 ingy sorry
20:53 ingy but you WILL need that
20:53 masak :)
20:53 ingy so, you're welcome ;)
20:54 ingy I almost got things back to normal except I can't stop Super+t opening trash
20:54 ingy I use super for all my term settings
20:55 ingy so super+t opens tab
20:55 ingy oh well
20:56 ingy super+cntl+t for now
20:57 saaki joined #perl6
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21:20 im2ee Dobranoc! :)
21:20 im2ee o/
21:25 saaki reception supposed to start at 2:30, but there's already like 20 people here
21:25 saaki oops
21:27 wamba joined #perl6
21:31 mj41 joined #perl6
21:40 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
21:43 soh_cah_toa perl6: say $?FILE
21:43 phenny soh_cah_toa: 11 Oct 05:55Z <moritz> tell soh_cah_toa that source_url in https://raw.github.com/soh-cah-toa​/p6-digest-sha256/master/META.info points to the old repo name (without the p6- prefix)
21:43 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$?FILE' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/MxUFFgiRRD:22)␤»
21:43 p6eval ..nom 3e66bd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$?FILE' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/l8gVicUfia:1)␤»
21:43 p6eval ..niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«/tmp/U5JBE8cATX␤»
21:45 soh_cah_toa lame...
21:45 colomon huh.  it gave you the result in all three, but spurious warnings in both rakudo versions?
21:47 Lma_ joined #perl6
21:47 dorlamm joined #perl6
21:48 wolfman2000 joined #perl6
21:49 masak well, I got residual $dayjob and apartment search done today. at least that's something ;)
21:50 masak tomorrow I'll do some Perl 6, I promise.
21:50 masak 'night, batteryflies.
21:54 wamba joined #perl6
22:00 wamba joined #perl6
22:02 wamba joined #perl6
22:04 cognominal_ joined #perl6
22:06 soh_cah_toa phenny: tell moritz good eye. i took care of it. thanks :)
22:06 phenny soh_cah_toa: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
22:14 jevin joined #perl6
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22:17 Exodist joined #perl6
22:24 diakopter niecza: print "{ "foo" ~~ /f(<perl>)o/ }"
22:24 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: System.InvalidCastException: Cannot cast from source type to destination type.␤  at RxFrame.IncorporateChild (System.String[] names, Boolean passcap, Niecza.P6any match) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at RxFrame.IncorpShift (Sys…
22:34 floyy joined #perl6
22:36 whiteknight joined #perl6
22:37 dalek roast: a3f34bf | Coke++ | S05-mass/rx.t:
22:37 dalek roast: rakudo fudging
22:37 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a3f34bf290
22:38 * [Coke] fudges S05-mass/rx.t
22:38 dalek rakudo/nom: ce15be4 | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
22:38 dalek rakudo/nom: run fudged test
22:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ce15be4ee5
22:43 diakopter phenny: ask TimToady is the following supposed to work (S05 Named scalar aliasing to subpatterns) std: "foo" ~~ ms/ $<key>=( f o o ) /; say $/<key>
22:43 phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
22:44 tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
22:51 sjohnson bc == BNU Calculator
22:53 donri joined #perl6
22:53 wolfman2_ joined #perl6
23:09 bluescreen100 joined #perl6
23:13 DarthGandalf joined #perl6
23:17 lestrrat joined #perl6
23:19 diakopter std: "foo" ~~ rx<a>
23:19 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
23:26 Tene joined #perl6
23:26 Tene joined #perl6
23:27 djanatyn` joined #perl6
23:28 TimToady this vv can't work because identifiers can't have spaced in 'em
23:28 phenny TimToady: 22:43Z <diakopter> ask TimToady is the following supposed to work (S05 Named scalar aliasing to subpatterns) std: "foo" ~~ ms/ $<key>=( f o o ) /; say $/<key>
23:28 TimToady *spaces
23:29 diakopter std: ms/ $<key>=( (<[A..E]>) (\d**3..6) (X?) ) /; # ok I'll paste the example exactly
23:29 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Two terms in a row at /tmp/p8by_hMWLE line 1:â�¤------> [32mms/ $<key>=( (<[A..E]>) [33mâ��[31m(\d**3..6) (X?) ) /; # ok I'll paste the[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤    bracketed infixâ�¤        infix or meta-infixâ�¤    statement modifier loopâ�¤Undeclared
23:29 p6eval ..r…
23:30 diakopter (that's what it has in S05)
23:34 cognominal joined #perl6
23:48 jkeats_ joined #perl6
23:50 Trashlord joined #perl6
23:54 TimToady probably shouldn't be an ms
23:55 diakopter what's an ms
23:56 TimToady m:s
23:56 diakopter match sigspace?
23:56 TimToady nod
23:56 diakopter whee; I might actually learn S05 this time through
23:57 Trashlord joined #perl6
23:58 diakopter what does "match null before a letter, don't capture" in S05 mean
23:58 diakopter for "A leading ? ..."
23:59 shinobicl_ joined #perl6
23:59 diakopter is that like ?= ?
23:59 TimToady means it's a 0-width assertion, and doesn't end up in $<alpha>

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