Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-10-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 diakopter how's it different from lookahead?
00:00 TimToady a quick way to write <?before ...> for those things that are assertions
00:00 diakopter oh
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00:01 diakopter also, that section in S05 links to https://github.com/perl6/roast/bl​ob/master/S05-mass/rx.t#L461-L481 which doesn't seem to have anything to do with "A leading ? indicates" ...
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00:11 diakopter niecza: say "foo" ~~ / <[ z .. a ]> /
00:11 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
00:15 diakopter niecza: say 44 if "foo" ~~ / <[ z .. a ]> /
00:15 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206:  ( no output )
00:15 diakopter niecza: say 44 if "zoo" ~~ / <[ z .. a ]> /
00:15 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206:  ( no output )
00:17 diakopter niecza: / (\d**1..3) { $0 < 256 or fail } /
00:17 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     'fail' used at line 1â�¤â�¤â�¤Unhandled Exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 766 (CORE die @ 2) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1136 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 36) â�¤â€¦
00:17 diakopter seems like fail should be easy to implement
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01:47 dalek roast: 2212c58 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S (3 files):
01:47 dalek roast: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/roast
01:47 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2212c58ba8
01:48 colomon crap, what did I do now?
01:49 colomon [Coke]: ping?
01:49 benabik ?
01:49 benabik colomon: Looks like you merged something.
01:50 colomon I certainly didn't mean to.  And my own change seems to have disappeared.
01:50 benabik Oh.  That's poor
01:50 colomon yeah, I screwed the pooch somehow
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01:52 colomon I was hoping [Coke] could tell me if I just somehow undid his last commit(s).
01:52 benabik colomon: I'll see if can figure out what changed, in case [Coke] isn't paying attention.
01:52 colomon danke
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01:54 benabik colomon: It looks like a clean merge.  I see your changes to S32-list/pick.t and [Coke]'s and moritz's changes to a variety of others.
01:55 colomon benabik++
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02:05 shinobicl_ hi... how should i debug perl6 programs? i want something like "pdb" ...
02:05 shinobicl_ i mean.. ptkdb
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02:18 flussence .oO( with a needle and a steady hand... )
02:18 benabik liberally sprinkle calls to say.
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02:46 ingy moritz: Pugs problem solved (I hope). Install GHC 7.2.1 then goto https://gist.github.com/1169332 and scroll down to "Installing cabal-install", apply the patch, and cabal will install. Then 'cabal update; cabal install Pugs'.
02:47 ingy \o^
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02:57 ingy shachaf: I don't see your commits :\
03:05 dalek Pugs.hs: 903e98a | (Ingy dot Net)++ | / (2 files):
03:05 dalek Pugs.hs: remove script and revert INSTALL
03:05 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/903e98a3fa
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03:19 sorear good * #perl6
03:21 sorear masak: it would be lowish-hanging fruit to s/Infinity/Inf/.  Is the full behavior specced?
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03:22 sorear colomon: what libraries are you thinking of using for a Perl 6 CAD program?
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03:23 ingy sorear: do you and shachaf know each other?
03:24 ingy shachaf: 23:17 < ingy> just commit on a branch and put your concerns in the commit msg, and I'll poke audrey to comment
03:25 ingy that was for you in #haskell, not sure if you saw it
03:29 sorear phenny: tell GlitchMr https://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues/67
03:29 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when GlitchMr is around.
03:30 sorear masak: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues/68 too now.
03:31 sorear PerlJam: Unity is pretty popular over in #mono.
03:32 * sorear never expected xmonad would become this popular ( awwaiid )
03:32 awwaiid what hmm?
03:33 awwaiid iffin y'all want to go xmonad but are afraid to take that trip -- bluetile
03:34 sorear diakopter: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/issues/69
03:35 sorear ingy: shachaf and I go way back, yes
03:36 sorear ingy: I'm not in #haskell anymore
03:36 shachaf sorear: That was for me, I think.
03:37 shachaf Is there any reason you're not in #haskell anymore? :-)
03:38 sorear shachaf: dons
03:38 shachaf Oh? What happened?
03:38 sorear also I don't Haskell nearly as much as I used to
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06:31 moritz pugs: say 'alive'
06:31 phenny moritz: 13 Oct 22:06Z <soh_cah_toa> tell moritz good eye. i took care of it. thanks :)
06:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«alive␤»
06:31 moritz phenny: tell soh_cah_toa my log files have a good eye indeed :-)
06:31 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when soh_cah_toa is around.
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06:43 dalek evalbot: 2a08401 | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild-pugs.sh:
06:43 dalek evalbot: first shot at pugs rebuild script
06:43 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/2a08401e98
06:44 dalek evalbot: c1461f2 | moritz++ | build-scripts/rebuild-pugs.sh:
06:44 dalek evalbot: [pugs] improved sanity
06:44 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/c1461f2e89
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06:51 dalek evalbot: ba87ddd | moritz++ | evalbot.pl:
06:51 dalek evalbot: pick up the pugs that is installed from git
06:51 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/ba87ddd76f
06:51 dalek evalbot: c090c2f | moritz++ | evalbot.pl:
06:51 dalek evalbot: Revert "exclude pugs from "perl6:" target while its installation is busted; include b for the lulz"
06:51 dalek evalbot:
06:51 dalek evalbot: This reverts commit e94ed5d07016def461554266281b30d60d6d445b.
06:51 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/c090c2f7af
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07:19 diakopter moritz++
07:23 diakopter std: /;/
07:23 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Semicolon must be quoted at /tmp/3qwncUe9RA line 1:�------> [32m/;[33m�[31m/[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:01 119m�»
07:23 diakopter nom: /;/
07:23 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at line 1, near "/"␤»
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07:35 moritz evalbot control restart
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07:36 moritz pugs: say 1
07:36 p6eval pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:39 moritz masak: you might like http://nathanmarz.com/blog/how​-to-beat-the-cap-theorem.html
07:39 moritz masak: it's about event sourcing; sad that he dilutes the information by bullshit about beating the CAP theorem (which he doesn't, of course)
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09:00 masak good moritz, #perl6
09:00 masak moritz: thanks. looks interesting.
09:07 mls_ morning perl6!
09:09 masak good mls_!
09:18 mls_ what should the output of https://gist.github.com/1286654 be?
09:18 mls_ my guess is R3U2R1
09:19 mls_ (sorry bout the "if (1)"... too much perl5...)
09:22 masak std: if (1) { say "OH HAI" }
09:22 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
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09:27 moritz mls_: R3U2R1 sounds sane to me
09:29 mls_ my code currently returns R3R2R2, which is probably wrong
09:30 moritz I'm pretty sure that the first one should be U3
09:30 moritz and that R2 shouldn't appear twice
09:30 moritz not sure about the 1, I could argue for either U or R
09:30 mls_ yes, I meant R3R2R1 ;)
09:30 mls_ Why U3?
09:30 moritz sorry, confused
09:31 masak what are you two talking about?
09:31 moritz 11:18 < mls_> what should the output of https://gist.github.com/1286654 be?
09:31 masak ah.
09:31 * masak blind
09:40 moritz let me get this straight... if the exception is *not* caught, then the UNDO phasers never fire
09:40 moritz correct?
09:51 mls_ that depends on the return value, in this case yes
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10:08 masak it's a wonderfully gnarly example, like a knot.
10:09 moritz what's the return value if the exception is not caught?
10:11 masak moritz: nice article. the biggest advantage I see nowadays with CQRS and ES is that it (when done right) basically forces the designer to make the model private. and that's very, very good. this realization has also made me really suspicious about Ruby on Rails.
10:12 masak a designer in CQRS mode says "here are my aggregate roots. they accept these commands and emit these events." *everything* else is internal and private.
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10:14 * masak joins cqrs-perl6 to avoid polluting #perl6 with his insistent CQRS propaganda
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10:36 ingy moritz: did you see my fix?
10:37 ingy moritz: it
10:37 ingy moritz: it's actually in the topic of #haskell :)
10:38 moritz pugs: say 'yes, ingy'
10:38 p6eval pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«yes, ingy␤»
10:38 ingy :D
10:38 ingy \o/
10:38 ingy thx
10:39 moritz I also built a rebuild script for pugs, but haven't crontabbed it yet
10:39 ingy ok
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11:18 masak moritz++
11:19 masak pugs: say "我很高興回來了!"
11:19 p6eval pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\25105'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\24456'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\39640'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\33288'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\22238'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\20358'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\20102'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\65281'␤我很高è…
11:19 masak *cough*
11:19 masak guess that might be Pugs's fault, tho'
11:20 masak as far as I know, I'm utf-8-conf'd here.
11:20 masak the IR clogs corroborate this.
11:25 masak perl6: say "!"
11:25 p6eval pugs c943eeb, rakudo ce15be, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«!␤»
11:26 masak oh, so 'b' is no longer à la mode?
11:26 masak niecza: say "我很高興回來了!"
11:26 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«我很高興回來了!␤»
11:26 masak rakudo: say "我很高興回來了!"
11:26 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«我很高興回來了!␤»
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12:46 PerlJam masak: ping
12:46 masak pong
12:46 PerlJam masak: I asked Karen about your grant and she said that it goes for vote on Oct 23.
12:47 masak PerlJam: yes, she emailed me about that yesterday.
12:47 PerlJam oh good.  :)
12:47 masak PerlJam: I'm going to reply to her email today. she asked about D4 and stuff.
12:47 * jnthn should really get his current grant wrapped up...
12:48 jnthn Especially as I think I've actually done everything I said I'd do on it.
12:48 moritz typed arrays weren't part of the grant?
12:48 * moritz only has a vague recollection
12:48 PerlJam She also updated the wording on the website about Hague grants to include a bit of a timeline for public review and when a vote is supposed to happen.
12:48 jnthn moritz: Don't think so, no
12:49 jnthn moritz: Natively typed attributes were
12:49 masak PerlJam: ooh, nice!
12:49 jnthn moritz: That was the only native thing I said I'd do int he grant.
12:49 jnthn moritz: As it happens, we got native lexicals and native operators during the course of it too :)
12:49 jnthn (Yes, compact arrays are on my radar.)
12:50 moritz .oO( "int he grant" when talking about native types :-)
12:50 jnthn :P
12:51 moritz well, native ops only in a branch... :-)
12:53 jnthn Looks like I should - exhaustion aside - get tuits to land said branch next week, though :)
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12:55 * moritz wonders if passing a Perl 6 Str to the regex engine maybe results in oh so many vtable calls
12:56 jnthn I *think* cursor points directly to a str
12:56 jnthn So at most once, I think.
12:58 moritz is nqp::isconcrete the test that should be DEFINITE in Perl 6?
12:58 masak wow, sigil variance is so *weird*! :)
12:58 jnthn yes
12:59 moritz masak: it has its own logic
12:59 masak it does indeed.
13:00 masak my reaction is mostly knee-jerk because Perl 5 keeps nagging me about gettin it rong :)
13:00 moritz jnthn: you're right, !cursor_init binds $target with nqp::bindattr_s to a str-typed attr
13:00 masak for arrays, that is. if I get it rong for hashes, the only way I'll know is that everything hits the fan at once.
13:00 moritz well, a transcoded version of $target that is
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13:15 trexy hi
13:15 trexy thought I would delurk for a bit ... 13:58:12
13:15 trexy It's been great to see developments on nom + niecza and rakudo 13:58:59
13:15 trexy I was wondering about the feasibility of using the JVM 13:59:18
13:15 trexy ? 13:59:21
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13:29 masak trexy: hi!
13:29 masak trexy: definitely feasible.
13:30 masak trexy: what's needed: someone to spearhead a JVM implementation of 6model.
13:30 masak we don't have that, because our developer resources are scarce.
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13:32 masak also, I've gotten the impression that even if we were to have more tuits for expanding to other VMs, the CLR and maybe V8 seem more attractive.
13:32 masak but that doesn't completely rule out the JVM, of course.
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13:34 masak would be way cool to have Perl 6 running on Android.
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13:53 * masak decommutes
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14:03 mls_ (Hah! I now get R3U2R1!)
14:05 moritz cool
14:07 mls_ so I now have working CATCH/CONTROL/ENTER/LEAVE/KEEP/UNDO phasers
14:07 mls_ missing: NEXT/LAST/REDO and those other two
14:08 mls_ I think I'll implement leave() and call it a wrap for today
14:08 moritz sounds like somebody is having fun :-)
14:08 mls_ those loop phasers are tricky
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14:18 trexy sorry connection keeps dropping out ...
14:18 trexy I still only have a superficial understanding of nom
14:18 trexy is the plan that nom will be a bit like DBI/DBD
14:18 trexy nom provides the DBI part
14:18 trexy and the VM underneath does the DBD
14:19 trexy - metaphorically speaking ....
14:19 moritz a bit like that, yes
14:19 trexy ok that sounds exciting
14:19 moritz nom: nqp::print("foo")
14:19 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«foo»
14:20 trexy from the DBI experience ... people learnt from other DBD's
14:20 moritz for the parrot backend, that compiles to a PIR opcode
14:20 trexy it seems as an onlooker
14:20 moritz for other backends, that would compile to System.Out.print() or whatever
14:20 trexy hmm ok
14:20 trexy I look at the dartlang ideas for implementation
14:20 moritz and we have the object runtime library called 6model
14:21 trexy and they have JS plans
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14:21 moritz which needs translating to other VMs that we want to run on
14:21 trexy ah OK - maybe 6model is more like the DBI then?
14:22 trexy the API that perl6 implementation must use
14:22 moritz that's another way to see it
14:22 trexy for which there is a DBD that does the work in the vm?
14:23 trexy and is 6 model expressed in nqp?
14:23 moritz 6model is written in C
14:24 moritz (for parrot)
14:24 moritz 6model for JVM would be written in java or JVM bytecode or so
14:24 trexy ah ok
14:25 trexy and the Perl6 grammar how does that interact with 6model?
14:25 moritz it doesn't
14:26 moritz at least not directly
14:26 moritz for example if you write  class A { }
14:27 moritz then the grammar only creates a parse tree
14:29 moritz and another translations stage which we call the "actions" turns it into method calls to the meta object model
14:29 moritz something like
14:29 moritz my $A = ClassHOW.new_type(name => 'A')
14:29 moritz $A.HOW.finalize($A)
14:30 trexy hmm ok
14:30 moritz and ClassHOW allocates some storage for the class -- and that is where 6model kicks in
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14:31 trexy ok - so I need to get my head around compile time vs runtime
14:31 trexy if we take javac for example
14:31 trexy - and we wanted to run Perl6 on the JVM
14:31 trexy we need to apply the grammar first off
14:32 trexy and the application of the grammar - requires Perl6 - as it is a Perl6 grammar
14:32 moritz correct
14:32 trexy so this phase can be handled by Patrick's grammar engine?
14:32 moritz yes
14:33 moritz the way to start an effort would be roughly:
14:33 moritz 1) use the parrot-based nqp ("not quite perl", a mini Perl 6 compiler), and teach it to emit JVM code
14:33 moritz and at the same time, write a 6model in Java
14:34 moritz 2) use this modified nqp to compile itself to JVM
14:35 moritz 3) use the now bootstrapped nqp-on-JVM to build rakudo, and teach rakudo do emit JVM code (which isn't so much effort anymore, because it re-uses the code generation facilities from nqp)
14:35 * moritz realizes that this is probably a bit confusing :-)
14:36 trexy 4) open XMAS cracker ;-)
14:36 moritz 5) consume said cracker
14:37 trexy hmm OK - need to mull over 3)
14:38 trexy I'm surprised rakudo - features in 3)
14:39 trexy I would have thought it would be like niecza and standalone
14:39 moritz well, nom is a rakudo branch
14:39 moritz and now "the" rakudo branch
14:39 moritz well, niecza also contains a compiler and a runtime part
14:40 moritz I don't see how it is more standalone than rakudo on JVM would be
14:40 moritz or less, for that matter
14:40 trexy ... probably my fuzzy understanding - please ignore
14:40 * moritz ignores
14:40 mls_ perl6: sub foo returns Int { Mu } ; say foo()
14:41 p6eval pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Mu"␤    at /tmp/GJPI5maQAH line 1, column 23-26␤»
14:41 p6eval ..rakudo ce15be, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
14:41 mls_ perl6: sub foo returns Int { return Mu } ; say foo()
14:41 p6eval pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Mu"␤    at /tmp/9D4KJL890x line 1, column 30-33␤»
14:41 p6eval ..niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
14:41 p6eval ..rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value␤  in sub foo at /tmp/Z7ulfnjlGl:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Z7ulfnjlGl:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/Z7ulfnjlGl:1␤»
14:41 mls_ Hmm. Rakudo bug.
14:41 moritz aye
14:45 jnthn ...where's the bug?
14:45 trexy and what about the potential for loading Java classes in the JVM ...
14:45 jnthn oh, I see it
14:45 trexy where does this fit in?
14:45 moritz nom: sub foo returns Int { Mu } ; say foo()
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14:45 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
14:45 trexy Perl6JVM
14:46 jnthn moritz: yeah, bug...please file ticket
14:46 moritz trexy: if you perl 6 running on the JVM, loading and using Java classes should be quite possible and fast
14:46 moritz though maybe not trivial, because Perl 6 Int aren't Java Integer objects
14:48 moritz jnthn: ticket filed
14:50 mls_ simple leave() works.
14:50 mls_ (but not Code.leave())
14:50 moritz well, good start :-)
14:50 moritz isn't leave() basically just a PIR .return, plus a bit of managing overhead?
14:51 mls_ well, yes ;)
14:51 mls_ Except it works on Blocks, not Routines
14:51 moritz somehow it surprises me it took us so long to get there :-)
14:52 moritz but since we compile block to PIR level subs, that's exactly what PIR .return gives us, no?
14:52 jnthn gotta get train...bbl
14:52 jnthn (quite a bit later...3 hour journey...)
14:53 mls_ moritz: well, as we don't have macros yet you need to return from the caller
14:53 trexy approaching the problem from another way
14:54 trexy the expressiveness of the Perl6 grammar is pretty amazing
14:54 trexy could a Java grammar be written with it
14:55 trexy and you have more of a Java -> Perl6 translator
14:55 trexy as Perl6 seems offer a superset of Java stuff (threads excepted)
14:56 trexy so a Java program is converted into Perl6 ... or is the where TImToady's idea of "slangs" applies?
14:57 moritz should be possible, but it would probably run slower than if you execute the Java classes with javac+JVM
14:58 trexy yes - is that due to JVM having the hell optimised out of it?
14:58 moritz that's one major point
14:59 moritz and a second is that we optimize Perl 6 runtime for Perl 6, not for Java
14:59 trexy hmm - ok
14:59 trexy and the translated Java -> Perl6 step would happen too late for the optimiser?
14:59 Trashlord joined #perl6
15:00 moritz hm, might not be too late
15:11 trexy I wonder if it is feasible/possible for a Perl6 grammar to parse Java source into something that could be fed into subsequent steps?
15:11 moritz it sure is possible
15:11 moritz just a decent bit of work to do
15:12 trexy could you outline what is required for that?
15:13 Kivutarrr left #perl6
15:13 tadzik probably some regex-fu :)
15:14 moritz write a grammar. Test it. Improve it until you're happy.
15:16 moritz probably after steps -1 and 0, learn about perl 6 regexes/grammars, and read the java specs
15:17 moritz even if you think you know a language, always read the spec (if one exists) before starting to write a parser :-)
15:17 GlitchMr42 joined #perl6
15:18 moritz otherwise you'll end up like those poor folks how wrote "xml parser" that choke on namespaces, simply because the author has never seen/used them :-)
15:19 trexy hmm - indeed ... I don't underestimate the complexity of all this ... just trying to gauge the respective height of each mountain
15:19 trexy ... and what kind of view there might be at the top ;-)
15:20 moritz :-)
15:20 moritz the key is to not just do it for the view at the top, but for the fun of climbing too
15:20 trexy yes ... indeed
15:21 trexy could learn quite a bit on the way
15:21 trexy I wonder how TimToady's idea of 'slangs' fits in with language translation ...
15:22 trexy can you define a grammar for a slang and incorporate it into the enclosing grammar?
15:22 moritz yes, that's the whole point
15:23 moritz for example in Perl 6, regexes are defined as a slang
15:23 moritz if you write    if m/foo/ { ... }
15:23 moritz then the mainline parser switches to the regex slang as soon as it sees the m/
15:23 moritz and tells it that the expected terminator is another /
15:24 trexy ok - sounds cool
15:24 moritz and when the regex slang parser is done, it tells the mainline parser how far it got (up to the second /, inclusive)
15:24 moritz and the mainline parser then parses the rest
15:24 moritz ... until it meets another slang, etc.
15:24 trexy and internally there is a parse tree with potential actions
15:24 trexy ?
15:25 moritz yes
15:25 moritz (I'm not sure how well rakudo implements slangs, but STD uses them that way)
15:26 trexy ok - could you have some superficial wrapper around a .java source file that kicks off a Java slang
15:26 trexy class JavaWrapper {
15:26 trexy ... java source in here ....
15:26 trexy }
15:27 moritz right
15:27 moritz javaclass Perl6.System.Out { ... }
15:27 moritz :-)
15:29 trexy I assume that the regex slang is "included" in the grammar somehow
15:30 trexy ?
15:30 moritz yes
15:30 trexy and the Java slang would get included in the same way
15:31 trexy - it sits in its own grammar file?
15:31 tadzik probably
15:34 trexy - so to load a whole lot of java source files you could wrap them in Perl6 wrappers with slang markers
15:34 colomon joined #perl6
15:35 moritz or you could write a small program that starts off with parsing the Java slang
15:35 moritz easier than lots of wrappers
15:36 gbacon joined #perl6
15:37 TimToady just don't call it Jerl :)
15:37 trexy haha - no risk there
15:37 TimToady I'd prefer Perva...oh wait...
15:37 sorear good * #perl6
15:37 TimToady o/
15:38 sjohnson how about Perlthon?
15:38 moritz \o sorear, TimToady
15:38 am0c joined #perl6
15:38 moritz .oO( just call it javap, what could possibly go wrong? )
15:38 trexy jamelia
15:38 sjohnson Duke -> Puke
15:39 TimToady unfortunately, JPL is taken...
15:39 moritz TimToady: did you see my smartmatch rant blog post?
15:39 TimToady yes
15:39 moritz TimToady: any comments?
15:40 TimToady I prefer to think before I say something :)
15:40 moritz ok :-)
15:42 TimToady in particular, I've been thinking about whether it's feasible to combine an infix topicalizer with a precedence bender
15:43 TimToady also about whether it's possible to combine it with andthen
15:43 moritz kinda like 'given', but more operator-y?
15:43 TimToady since andthen also topicalizes
15:44 moritz well, if we have a topicalizer infix t, we can always construct &&t and ||t from it :-)
15:44 TimToady thing is, you can't do precence bending and also expect $result = $string foo m/bar/ to work
15:44 TimToady *precedence
15:44 moritz right
15:45 awwaiid joined #perl6
15:46 moritz std: for m:g/a/ given $x { }
15:46 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Missing block at /tmp/hS2Ra1525m line 1:�------> [32mfor m:g/a/ [33m�[31mgiven $x { }[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:01 121m�»
15:46 moritz std: for (m:g/a/ given $x) { }
15:46 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/OAQh7_HDVt line 1:�------> [32mfor (m:g/a/ given [33m�[31m$x) { }[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 123m�»
15:46 moritz std: for (m:g/a/ given '') { }
15:47 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
15:51 * TimToady is tempted to borrow 'wa' from Japanese
15:52 TimToady all the English infix topicalizers are very heavyweight
15:53 TimToady being the case, having been said, being so....
15:53 TimToady being taken as given...
15:53 moritz that said
15:53 TimToady English tends to prefer prefix topicalizers
15:54 MayDaniel joined #perl6
15:55 TimToady but a low-precedence andthen equiv probably wants to be punctuational
15:55 TimToady er, high-prec
15:55 TimToady tighter
15:56 TimToady Metaphors We Live^WDie By
15:56 moritz sad that -> is already taken
15:56 TimToady most of the arrows are took
15:56 moritz my @matches = $str -> m:g/../ # wouldn't read too badly
15:57 TimToady considered » for a while, which might work in isolation
15:57 TimToady but probably has too many hyper overtones
15:57 TimToady -» is available
15:58 TimToady _ is available, and has a mnemonic
15:58 TimToady but not very pretty
15:58 moritz but it's <alpha> by our very own classification :-)
15:59 TimToady no problem for an infix
15:59 TimToady the main thing I keep coming back to on the prec bend issue is that, as soon as you go to two chars for you're infix, you don't gain much over normal parens
15:59 TimToady *your
16:01 moritz ... if counting characters is your main metric
16:01 TimToady yes, but requiring understanding of precedence is not an unmixed blessing
16:02 sorear $string は s/foo/bar/ ?
16:02 TimToady we could almost get away with using -->
16:02 sorear I have to admit this amuses me
16:03 moritz TimToady: almost?
16:03 TimToady --> doesn't topicalize in a signature :)
16:04 TimToady but if pronounced "returns", it has some syn<mumble>ness
16:04 TimToady and resonates quite nicely as the item analog of ==>
16:07 moritz it also fits when piping a Cat into a regex
16:07 TimToady if put at ==> precedence, does have the problem of $result = $string --> m/foo/ not working as expected
16:07 moritz yes, needs tighter precedence
16:07 TimToady well, but you also want a precedence bender topicalizer
16:07 * moritz wonders how    for $str --> m:g// -> $match { }  looks
16:08 * moritz -> commute
16:08 TimToady std: for $str ==> m:g/foo/ -> $match {...}  # just seeing if it parses
16:09 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Variable $str is not predeclared at /tmp/9nK5eYr2rt line 1:â�¤------> [32mfor [33mâ��[31m$str ==> m:g/foo/ -> $match {...}  # jus[0mâ�¤Potential difficulties:â�¤  $match is declared but not used at /tmp/9nK5eYr2rt line 1:â�¤------> [32mfor $…
16:09 TimToady std: for 42 ==> m:g/foo/ -> $match {...}  # just seeing if it parses
16:09 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $match is declared but not used at /tmp/g7acqbLPvQ line 1:â�¤------> [32mfor 42 ==> m:g/foo/ -> [33mâ��[31m$match {...}  # just seeing if it parses[0mâ�¤ok 00:01 125mâ�¤Â»
16:09 TimToady std: for 42 ==> m:g/foo/ -> $ {...}  # just seeing if it parses
16:09 p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
16:15 molaf joined #perl6
16:17 tyatpi_ joined #perl6
16:17 Holy_Cow joined #perl6
16:19 * TimToady is now thinking about a metaoperator that causes the left side of any infix to become the topic for the right side
16:22 TimToady I guess it would only work on thunky ops, so maybe a metaop is overkill
16:23 masak +1. overkill.
16:23 masak besides, doesn't infix:<andthen> already topicalize in such a way?
16:23 TimToady a postfix topicalizer is probably wanted, and maybe a better noop infix
16:23 TimToady yes, that is one of the many points above
16:24 * masak backlogs
16:24 masak <mls_> those loop phasers are tricky
16:24 masak mls_: you, sir, are awesome.
16:28 kboga joined #perl6
16:35 TimToady hmm
16:36 TimToady maybe 'at' as a tight 'andthen'
16:36 TimToady $foo at m/bar/  # almost works
16:36 masak cute.
16:36 TimToady maybe too cute
16:37 masak it's like a reversed statement_mod 'given'.
16:37 TimToady and 'andthen' is a bit misnamed, since it's based on definedness
16:37 masak should be 'defthen' :)
16:37 TimToady andthen is not pure topicalizer
16:37 masak right.
16:38 TimToady which is why I start wondering about other ways of composing so we get pure topicalization and pure def checks
16:38 TimToady suppose, for the sake of argument a postfix metaop : that topicalizes the left side
16:38 sorear is anyone else bothered by the funky pseudo-topicalizer-ness of orelse?
16:39 TimToady $foo &&: m/bar/ works for true values
16:39 sorear .oO( Everybody wants the colon )
16:40 TimToady we don't currently have a tight defand
16:40 masak \\
16:40 masak SCNR
16:41 masak or maybe && but in italics.
16:41 TimToady was my though too, but pity we can't have italic &&  :)
16:41 TimToady *ght
16:41 masak we'd have to write <i>&&</i>
16:41 masak ugliest operator in town.
16:42 TimToady
16:42 sjohnson that doesn't show up on my end :/
16:42 sjohnson .u house
16:42 phenny U+2302 HOUSE (⌂)
16:42 TimToady pity there's not a turned HOUSE that we could use for home plate
16:43 TimToady and where's MOTEL, so we can play Monopoly?
16:43 TimToady er HOTEL
16:45 sjohnson .u hotel
16:45 phenny sjohnson: Sorry, no results for 'hotel'.
16:45 masak verdire, statement_mod_loop:given is my infix topicalizer of choice.
16:45 masak it has its operants in the correct order, too ;)
16:45 masak operands*
16:45 TimToady what is this "correct" of which you speak, grasshopper?
16:46 masak The One That I Like™
16:46 PerlJam masak++
16:47 masak srsly though. we don't need more infix topicalizers.
16:47 masak we need a smaller spec.
16:47 diakopter +Inf
16:48 simcop2387 joined #perl6
16:48 * TimToady shrinks the spec to 1/+Inf
16:49 masak perl6: say 1/+Inf
16:49 GlitchMr joined #perl6
16:49 p6eval pugs c943eeb, rakudo ce15be, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:49 * TimToady is sorely tempted to blow the spec away and see if git can really recover it... :)
16:49 tadzik (:
16:50 masak TimToady: now let's not get agitated. put down the spec and step away from the keyboard. :)
16:50 * masak .oO( speak softly and carry a big spec )
16:50 TimToady ow
16:53 masak fwiw, I think chromatic++'s question "what's in the way for new people to go from 0 to productive with Perl 6" is highly, highly relevant.
16:54 masak at least if we don't want to condemn Perl 6 to obscurity a la "it would've been a nice language, had it ever gained traction".
16:54 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:55 TimToady you have tremendous powers of oversimplification :)
16:56 masak I am a self-proclaimed Perl 6 application developer. but I am one not on the grounds of "wow, Perl 6 is so fit-for-purpose!", but rather "let's see which holes I fall into if I do this"
16:56 masak how do we actively create more of the first kind? note that it's then more about implementations (and distributions) than about spec.
16:58 donri joined #perl6
16:58 masak for example, there has been ideas about a one-click-install PHP-ish Rakudo distro wherein source files can be pure HTML with Perl 6 inside <% %> tags.
16:58 masak (that's not all PHP gets right, of course, but it's still an intriguing idea)
16:59 geekosaur the return of eperl?
16:59 donri php: perl learning environment for kids
16:59 sayu joined #perl6
16:59 TimToady sure, and if you think I'm supposed to be in the business of designing specific implementations, you've not been paying attention :P
17:00 diakopter I still wonder who made that request/insistence, and if it's still relevant
17:01 TimToady originally it was because people thought Perl 5 was badly implemented (hah), but nowadays it's more to avoid the perception of favoritism
17:02 diakopter ah, political correctness
17:02 diakopter (to oversimplify)
17:04 TimToady if I had not done that, we might well have neither pugs nor niecza
17:04 TimToady ask yourself if that would be a beneficial outcome
17:05 diakopter perhaps, maybe not too likely, seeing how the pre-rakudos turned out
17:05 masak TimToady: in the case I gave above, and similar cases, I do not expect you to design such things, no.
17:05 TimToady and our mandate has always been not just to invent another crappy language
17:06 TimToady so the process has been biased toward slow convergence on the right spot over fast convergence on the wrong spot
17:06 TimToady we knew we'd take a hit for that
17:06 masak TimToady: are you concerned over the slow convergence?
17:07 masak is there such a thing as too slow convergence?
17:08 TimToady well, rakudo's grammar has not converged on std's as fast as I'd like, but that's primarily because it's a volunteer organizatoin
17:08 sorear woah, woah
17:08 diakopter heh
17:08 moritz well, nom is still laying the foundations for STD convergence
17:09 sorear what's going on here?  why has the channel tepmerature just shot up 25?
17:09 moritz we now have roles in nqp
17:09 TimToady masak++ is having his Official Panic now becuase of something chromatic++ wrote
17:09 masak seems so.
17:09 masak waa waa waa panic panic panic
17:10 TimToady :)
17:10 masak there, I'm done.
17:10 moritz once we can use qregex for parsing rakudo, std convergence becomes possible
17:10 moritz wow, that was a short panic :-)
17:10 masak I'm efficient :)
17:10 moritz <.panic('OH NOEZ')>
17:10 TimToady I'm not faulting rakudo for the path it's taking; we got 6model out of it, after all
17:10 masak like removing a band-aid.
17:11 TimToady I'm just expressing one spot where I'm impatient
17:11 diakopter a bandaid that's been stuck to the skin for years ;)
17:11 masak TimToady: I'm always grateful/happy for each new functionality Rakudo or Niecza brings online. and I don't think we've stalled at all.
17:12 * diakopter tries Really Hard not to panic again
17:12 masak TimToady: but I am... interested, let's say, in whether there are things we as a community could do to lower the thresholds chromatic talks about.
17:13 masak TimToady: if diakopter panics again, do we get to deport him to Python? :D
17:13 TimToady I think we're getting on toward the point where it makes sense to consider that, but it didn't really makes sense back when rakudo was running like a dog
17:14 diakopter actually I had to do some Python at $work the other day
17:14 TimToady we want to add adopters at the point they're ready for Perl 6
17:14 TimToady and I don't think we're quite ready to Cross the Chasm
17:15 TimToady despite the fact that P6 is always quite a bit more functional than P1
17:15 * diakopter remembers the Bridge Illustration from his Navigators days
17:15 TimToady *already
17:15 mls_ afk -> weekend...
17:15 TimToady o/
17:16 masak one cross Perl 6 has to bear is that the bar is so much higher now than it was at the time of P1.
17:16 mls_ (TimToady: regarding https://gist.github.com/1286654 , is R3U2R1 correct?)
17:16 masak P1 started out at zero. P6 started out as P5.
17:17 diakopter I thought P1 started out at shell/awk/sed/etc
17:18 mkramer left #perl6
17:18 masak fair enough.
17:18 TimToady yes, shell/awk/sed was P1's bar
17:18 mj41 joined #perl6
17:18 masak still a smaller bite than P5, which does everything.
17:19 TimToady and I delayed P1 till I was sure we could clear the bar
17:19 masak well, we haven't released P6 yet either :P
17:19 TimToady if you're going to be better at everything like P6 is, we have to get a little better at distributing the future unevenly
17:20 colomon wait, I thought we were releasing P6 every month!  ;)
17:20 TimToady that's...orthogonal...to the issue of the Innovator's Dilemma
17:20 sorear seems chromatic doesn't use Linux for patent reasons
17:20 TimToady chromatic can give you lots of reasons for all his opinions :)
17:21 masak as part of my Official Panic, can I write a blog post titled "Perl 6 Will Never Be Released"?
17:21 masak it'll be a good one, I promise.
17:21 TimToady no, that's ingy's job :)
17:21 espadrine left #perl6
17:21 sorear Perl 6 doesn't need to be released.  It escaped, years ago.
17:22 TimToady Perl 6 is released in the same sense as floodwaters are released from a dam; it'll go where it makes sense, and not elsewhere
17:22 * colomon is trying desperately to think of a The Fugitive related joke here.
17:22 TimToady the future finds it's own future-level, as it were
17:23 TimToady which is why it's unevenly distributed
17:23 diakopter oops, someone turned off the gravity
17:23 TimToady that's fine, we still have levity
17:24 diakopter but not brevity
17:24 masak :P
17:24 masak plenty of suavity.
17:24 * TimToady was looking for briefer 'andthen', or a way of factoring it out entirely, but Someone took that as adding complexity
17:26 colomon For what it's worth, I've found trying to implement a short "real world" program in Niecza very rewarding.  But on the other hand, I had to stop and code up four or five "core" routines for Niecza that I desperately needed for my code.
17:26 TimToady same here
17:26 TimToady well, only two for me
17:29 colomon now if we could just get another twenty people to do the same.... ;)
17:30 masak I'm enjoying using Niecza for "real world" stuff too. just not making much noise about it at the moment.
17:31 TimToady we really don't know where the breakout will be first; in the Golden Age we thought it would be in FP, and others think we'll obsolete some OO language, or PHP, or...
17:32 TimToady I think it would be fun to breakout everywhere at once, but I don't really expect it
17:32 sorear I think niecza/clr is a bad setup for attacking the command line scripts field.  Too much overhead
17:32 TimToady depends on the script :)
17:33 * diakopter is hoping sorear's serialization work cuts startup time by 90%
17:33 diakopter wishful thinking.
17:33 espadrine joined #perl6
17:34 sorear I'm hoping for more like 30%
17:34 TimToady sorear: the obviously solution is to write a bash emulator for .NET that calls into niecza efficiently )
17:34 diakopter heh.
17:35 sorear the real wins will come from rearranging the build to make better use of AOT
17:35 masak "AOT"?
17:36 masak "Aspect-Oriented Turtles"? (all the way down?)
17:36 diakopter ahead-of-time compilation to binaries in mono
17:36 masak ooh
17:37 TimToady and it's quite possible that the breakout will come via some engine that is still only a twinkle in someone's eye
17:38 PerlJam As long as the someone that will initiate the breakout isn't still a twinkle in someone's eye
17:38 masak in retrospect, I'm disappointed at my Official Panic. I'm thinking I should have researched it better, and flailed my arms around more. :/
17:38 TimToady you'll get better at it as you go along :)
17:38 colomon I still halfway expect it will be the first .NET p6 which can use p5 modules on CPAN.  Even if it was generally slower than p5, the ability to use two entire huge families of libraries seems like it would be a huge win.
17:38 ashleydev /mark
17:38 TimToady I'll let you take a continuation
17:38 masak ooh
17:39 masak I was about to propose defacing S01, but continuation is cleaner, yes.
17:39 PerlJam colomon: I think anything that makes using p6 for real world problems super easy would be win enough
17:40 TimToady well, cleaner for the user, but someone has to implement CPS, and get it to integrate with the non-CPS world somehow
17:40 slavik1 CPS?
17:40 PerlJam slavik1: continuation passing style
17:40 TimToady continuation passing style
17:40 * geekosaur hasn't been able to get mono on lion so far, so no niecza here...
17:40 awwaiid Gimme a C --- "C!" ... etc
17:40 slavik1 layman's terms?
17:41 slavik1 hurray for wikipedia
17:41 PerlJam slavik1: heh, I was just about to link you there :)
17:41 TimToady layman's terms?  like, universes that allow time travel vs universes that don't :)
17:41 sorear CPS is kind of a misnomer in this context
17:41 * geekosaur also has utter crap for network, so that's been hung for >5 min
17:42 sorear basically, the high degree of stack introspection and manipulation allowed in Perl 6 forces Perl 6 implementations to use their own stack
17:42 colomon geekosaur: how are you trying to get mono?
17:42 geekosaur macports, bmacports; once you use any of the package managers, you're more or less stuck with it, or you punt and install *everything* manually
17:43 geekosaur gah
17:43 * geekosaur typing blind (did I mention crap network?)
17:43 diakopter geekosaur: did you try the package download from go-mono.com?
17:43 sorear Parrot is designed to support Perl 6's stack requirements
17:43 geekosaur could you read past the first word?
17:43 geekosaur never mind
17:43 sorear we're doomed to support two parallel stacks if we want to mix P6 with C code
17:43 colomon I use macports in general, and mono didn't work properly until I tried to use the package download from go-mono.com.
17:44 geekosaur problem is, I've helped 6 people this week alone (one of them *here*) solve a problem caused by mixing stuff.
17:45 geekosaur I mean, sure, go-mono.com and then hope like hell that nothing else on this machine never notices or the result will be unfixable without nuke-from-orbit.  BTDT
17:46 diakopter iirc the package doesn't install itself to your $PATH, you have to add it there yourself
17:46 diakopter so how could it corrupt anything?
17:47 geekosaur too many overly "smart" configure scripts that look everywhere under the sun
17:48 geekosaur which is why macports is strict on the "don't mix with anything else" and homebrew is moving there after a brief attack of "they're just dumb, *we're* smarter than tha...oh $#!+"
17:54 colomon ah.  well, by all means, continue trying what wouldn't work for me and apparently isn't working for you.  :)
17:55 geekosaur I haven't tried with latest release yet; they only just imported lion compatibility
17:56 geekosaur (that is the one downside, but impossible hairsnarls requiring the Gordian solution are worth avoiding)
18:00 * mikemol would be very happy to have an ePub documenting NQP syntax and keywords, for study prior to trying to implement it.
18:01 mikemol Granted, at the rate I get around to things, that'd probably start happening in 2013...
18:03 kst joined #perl6
18:07 sorear NQP is an implementation-defined language
18:07 geekosaur sorry, I am a little hyper about this ting, I have one machine to work with right now and stuff with a track record of hosing machines is Right Out
18:08 overrosy joined #perl6
18:08 geekosaur (in motel room, unemployed, resume etc. lives on this machine, yes it's backed up but that's not so useful if I can't do anything with it...)
18:09 sorear geekosaur: want a feather account?
18:09 geekosaur installing diretly *might* be safe but I'm not in a position to be the test subject
18:09 sorear has anyone seen Juerd lately?
18:09 sorear I sent him mail asking permission to make a new account months ago
18:09 geekosaur still eed something to accessit with (if it comes to that I still have this account at CMU, but getting-at is still a problem.)
18:09 geekosaur also see "crap network"
18:10 sorear well the idea was that you could install mono/niecza on someone else's machine. :)
18:10 geekosaur (actually, it would be nice if I could run another OS X in a VM, except that it'd probably be a bit heavy on this laptop)
18:10 sorear but yes crap network...
18:10 sorear you could probably run something a bit lighter than OSX in the VM
18:11 sorear Linux 2.2.x would boot in 4MB
18:11 geekosaur (I do have a Windows VM for that matter which would be ideal except VMs suck pretty badly on here)
18:11 sorear I wonder how hard it would be to get Mono running on Linux 2.2 or 2.4
18:13 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
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18:17 kaleem joined #perl6
18:17 * sorear wonders how much of a class should be saved
18:17 * diakopter wonders if you mean a class at school
18:18 sorear no, I'm looking at niecza's P6how class
18:18 sorear there are approximately two levels of caching herr
18:19 sorear some stuff is done only at .compose time, other stuff has to be redone after an augment
18:21 uasi joined #perl6
18:24 * geekosaur is stifling some additional rants, like parallels 6 doesn't use VTx on this machine and Digital River failed to let him download after he purchased P7 which has the fix...)
18:33 tyatpi_ joined #perl6
18:34 sorear geekosaur: if VMs are problematic, I encourage you to consider acquiring a (probably used) second computer.  I have a 1994 laptop that I occasionally use for dangerous experiments
18:36 Trashlord joined #perl6
18:36 geekosaur see "unemployed" above
18:36 geekosaur also, I have like 3 more computers - in storage (see "mote room")
18:37 * geekosaur is in a sucktastic hell in terms of lots of things atm :(
18:37 geekosaur but I keep trying to get some kind of perl6 going on here because I don't want to just drop out of existence like I've had to do with so many things
18:38 [Coke] joined #perl6
18:39 TimToady we will try to remain a relatively cheap addiction :)
18:45 masak perl6: say <cheap fast correct>.pick(2)
18:45 p6eval pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«cheapcorrect␤»
18:45 p6eval ..rakudo ce15be, niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«cheap fast␤»
18:45 awwaiid sweet
18:45 diakopter perl6: say <cheap fast correct>.pick(1)
18:45 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«cheap␤»
18:45 p6eval ..niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«fast␤»
18:45 p6eval ..pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«correct␤»
18:45 masak :P
18:45 moritz lol
18:46 diakopter lol
18:46 masak Pugs insists on claiming to be correct :)
18:47 masak perl6: say <panic waa>.roll(6)
18:47 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Unable to resolve method roll in class Parcel␤  at /tmp/QDZfYs8bZt line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2160 (CORE C1034_ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2161 (CORE module…
18:47 p6eval ..pugs c943eeb: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Array: "&roll"␤    at /tmp/tmYzXteV2r line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
18:47 p6eval ..rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«waa panic waa panic panic waa␤»
18:47 masak wut? Niecza has .pick but not .roll?
18:47 masak someone went for the higher-hanging fruit...
18:49 colomon I defined what I needed, thank you.
18:50 masak ok... let's see if I can put together a patch for .roll, then.
18:51 colomon masak++
18:54 masak compiling...
18:55 PerlJam .oO( .pitch .roll .yaw )
18:56 geekosaur .widdershins?
18:56 diakopter niecza: say { say 5; }()()
18:56 p6eval niecza v10-44-g82a2206: OUTPUT«5␤␤Unhandled Exception: No value for parameter $key in CORE CommonEnum.postcircumfix:<( )>␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (CORE CommonEnum.postcircumfix:<( )> @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/_FlB402bj5 line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza…
18:57 TimToady it's okay by me if Airplane.roll doesn't call List.roll...
18:58 TimToady or Ship.list
19:01 * [Coke] returns from a network outage.
19:01 [Coke] colomon: pong?
19:01 TimToady so when you're coming in for a landing, why do they call it a rollout?
19:02 geekosaur that's what happens to the rubber on the tires?
19:02 colomon [Coke]: hopefully old news now -- I had some sort of git muck-up in roast, and was hoping you could verify your most recent patches to it were still correct.
19:05 masak sorear, colomon: https://gist.github.com/1288000
19:05 [Coke] colomon: I'll assume you didn't screw it up until proven otherwise.\
19:05 * jnthn back
19:06 colomon benabik checked last night and claimed it was correct.  but I have no idea what I did to trigger a merge, so relying on my git competence may be dodgy
19:07 benabik colomon: It looks like the result of a `git pull`.
19:07 colomon hmmm... forgot the --rebase, maybe?
19:08 benabik yeah
19:08 soh_cah_toa joined #perl6
19:09 [Coke] I have an alias so I /always/ do a pull --rebase. hardcode git people seem to think this is bad, though.
19:09 benabik I just set branch.master.rebase
19:09 benabik On _most_ of my repos.
19:09 colomon I still use svn for $work, so when I hadn't done a lot of p6 work lately I tend to start forgetting things like --rebase
19:09 imarcusthis joined #perl6
19:10 [Coke] colomon: Ah, I cheat by using git-svn for work!
19:10 [Coke] makes my life much easier, and the muggles never notice.
19:10 colomon [Coke]: I wasn't at all happy with it when I tried that.
19:11 dalek niecza: f03032c | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
19:11 dalek niecza: Turn on pick.t.
19:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/f03032c29a
19:11 dalek niecza: b99829c | masak++ | lib/CORE.setting:
19:11 dalek niecza: add .roll
19:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b99829cdf8
19:11 TimToady git tends to punish cargo culters from time to time
19:11 [Coke] colomon: I'm much happier with it now that I'm a git regular.
19:11 [Coke] when I wasn an svn regular, it was horrible.
19:11 [Coke] *was an
19:12 colomon I like git, but I don't use it often enough to keep all the useful invocations in my head all the time.
19:12 [Coke] whoa. awesome perl job about 15m north of here, 60K-150K+10K signon bonus.
19:12 colomon where do you live?
19:12 * [Coke] is so happy to see that, even if he can't leave his current job. ;)
19:12 tadzik 15 meters?
19:12 [Coke] I work in albany, ny.
19:12 TimToady the problem with relying on distributed expertise is that isn't :)
19:12 [Coke] tadzik: miles: I live in the us
19:13 tadzik ah, those different units
19:13 colomon and miles versus minutes is probably about the same.  :)
19:13 [Coke] whoops! and I meant minutes! colomon++ FTW.
19:13 tadzik :)
19:13 [Coke] I just instinctively countered meters with miles. ;)
19:14 TimToady we need more letters...
19:14 araujo joined #perl6
19:14 colomon [Coke]: I could (in theory) switch to git for $work, but my svn usage is heavily based on the "one repository, dozens of different sub-repos" model that's not allowed in git.
19:14 colomon afk # needs to read book to a 3yo
19:15 benabik [Coke]: Sometimes I remember that actually programming for a living would pay better.  But despite this thesis taking forever to come together, it's far more interesting.
19:15 TimToady yotto-ounces?
19:16 [Coke] nom:say 721-77
19:16 [Coke] nom: say 721-77 #ETOOMUCH WHITESPACE
19:16 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«644␤»
19:17 TimToady you leave out the whitespace when you use : in English, do you?
19:17 [Coke] rakudo: enum A <1 2 3>; enum B <a b c>; say A.enums.keys; say B.enums.keys;
19:17 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤a b c␤»
19:18 [Coke] TimToady: that would be a more convincing argument if I was speaking english to the eval bot.
19:18 TimToady 'say' sure looks like English to me
19:19 [Coke] rakudo: enum A <a b c>; enum B <a b c>; say &a.perl
19:19 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '&a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/JQVXYcGEKu:1)␤»
19:20 [Coke] TimToady: I am not arguing with about your language design. I was being snarky about "nom:say" not working, and needing "nom: say" instead.
19:20 [Coke] I know better than to argue with you about such things, which is why I am your RT monkey.
19:21 [Coke] rakudo: enum A <a b c>; enum B <a b c d>; say &d.perl
19:21 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '&d' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/K6YZxsJPTD:1)␤»
19:21 [Coke] rakudo: enum A <a b c>; enum B <a b c d>; say d.perl
19:21 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«B::d␤»
19:21 [Coke] rakudo: enum A <a b c>; enum B <a b c d>; say c.perl
19:21 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«B::c␤»
19:22 [Coke] rakudo: enum A <a b c>; enum B <a b c>; say c.perl
19:22 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«B::c␤»
19:23 [Coke] rakudo: enum foo <>; say foo[1]
19:23 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() to read input, ('') to represent a null string or () to represent an empty list at line 1, near "<>; say fo"␤»
19:23 [Coke] rakudo: enum foo < >; say foo[1]
19:23 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot put type arguments on foo because it is not a parametric type at line 1, near ""␤»
19:23 [Coke] rakudo: enum foo; say foo[1]
19:23 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &foo␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/OY9MFrJAR6:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/OY9MFrJAR6:1␤»
19:23 TimToady S12:1936 says that c.perl should be an error
19:25 jnthn TimToady: What do we stick in c?
19:25 jnthn Failure?
19:26 * jnthn checks that really is the line of spec he's thinking of :)
19:26 TimToady Failure might work
19:26 TimToady needs to have something there in case there's a 3rd one
19:26 [Coke] That was RT #72696 if anyone wants to update it.
19:27 [Coke] rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; my somenum $temp = 3; say $temp.key;
19:27 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$temp'; expected 'somenum' but got 'Int'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/5fZwMAEju3:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/5fZwMAEju3:1␤»
19:27 [Coke] rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; my somenum $temp = d;
19:27 p6eval rakudo ce15be:  ( no output )
19:27 [Coke] rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; my somenum $temp = d; say $temp;
19:27 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«somenum::d␤»
19:28 [Coke] TimToady: should the line with $temp = 3 work?
19:28 [Coke] or anyone who answers spec questions, really.
19:29 TimToady there are at least two theories about that, and they're both wrong :)
19:29 * [Coke] just updates the ticket with the code output, then.
19:30 TimToady it kinda depends on whether you think enums are subject to type erasure, such that the run-time only knows about integers
19:31 TimToady Perl 6 has tended to be anti-erasure
19:31 [Coke] TimToady: RT #75370
19:31 TimToady but it could be made to work either way, really
19:31 TimToady it would have to be an implicit conversion, in the non-erasure view
19:32 [Coke] nom: enum X is export <A B C>;
19:32 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:<is>'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu $type, Any $size, Any $nativesize)␤:(Attribute $attr, Any $rw)␤:(Attribute $attr, Any $readonly)␤:(Routine $r, Any $rw)␤:(Routine $r, Any $default)␤:(Parame…
19:32 [Coke] nom: enum X <A B C> is export;
19:32 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "enum X <A "␤»
19:32 TimToady and we'd presume there was a unique mapping, which isn't guaranteed by enums
19:32 TimToady reverse mapping, that is
19:33 TimToady but the response of Perl 6 to native typing is mostly to hoist the type info into the container or into the metadata, not to throw it away
19:34 TimToady so it would be up to the $temp container to enforce the coercion to somenum(), if anyone did
19:34 [Coke] Do we have an evalbot with no ICU lib available?
19:35 jnthn TimToady: Well, Rakudo mostly does "container erasure" there too, though we do have sufficient meta-data to hand at runtime if we need to know that $x is a native int, for example.
19:36 TimToady well, yes, given that you'd like your typical container to optimize down to a C pointer
19:36 TimToady or better :)
19:37 [Coke] nom: 0 but last;
19:37 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«Warning␤»
19:37 [Coke] ... what warning?
19:37 [Coke] ah. no warning. weird.
19:37 [Coke] nom: last;
19:37 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«Warning␤»
19:38 TimToady Obviously, it's your Last Warning!
19:38 jnthn :P
19:39 jnthn I guess that's nothing catching an unhandled "last" control exception, and Parrot trying to figure out what on earth to do with it :)
19:39 [Coke] rakudo: class Foo does Positional[::T] {}; say Foo ~~ Positional
19:39 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not locate compile-time value for symbol T␤»
19:39 jnthn That looks correct.
19:39 jnthn It needs to know what T is there to use it as a type argument at compile time.
19:39 [Coke] T isn't some magic thing that is a type?
19:39 [Coke] ah, yes, but not magical. OK.
19:39 jnthn [Coke]: That's a role usage, not a role definition.
19:40 jnthn [Coke]: If it was being done in a role's signature, then yes, it'd be a type capture.
19:40 jnthn Maybe the submitter was confused, or just fuzzin' :)
19:40 [Coke] it was masak.
19:40 colomon definitely confused.  ;)
19:40 jnthn ;)
19:40 jnthn Definitely trying to bust Rakudo :P
19:41 [Coke] rakudo: my $a = Multi.new; $a.push(sub (1,2,3) { }); $a.push(sub (1,2) { }); say join ", ", $a.candidates
19:41 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Multi␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/DDhSVoAEMI:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/DDhSVoAEMI:1␤»
19:41 [Coke] Is Multi gone?
19:41 pmurias joined #perl6
19:41 pmurias sorear: hi
19:42 jnthn [Coke]: Yes
19:42 pmurias sorear: re serialize branch of niecza, any ideas how it will deal with Perl 5 interop?
19:43 [Coke] rakudo: class A { method b { 'b' } }; my $a = A.new; my $b = &A::b.assuming($a); $b()
19:43 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Method 'assuming' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/6__8CGzj6s:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/6__8CGzj6s:1␤»
19:43 [Coke] is .assuming also gone?
19:43 jnthn No, assuming is there
19:43 jnthn But A::b is (correctly) not
19:44 jnthn The method has to be decalred "our" for that to work.
19:44 [Coke] rakudo: class A { our method b { 'b' } }; my $a = A.new; my $b = &A::b.assuming($a); $b()
19:44 p6eval rakudo ce15be:  ( no output )
19:44 [Coke] k.
19:44 [Coke] jnthn++
19:46 [Coke] rakudo: my @t; for < a b > { @t.push( sub { $OUTER::_ } ) }; say $_() for @t
19:46 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/3c0i82rwTB:1␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3752␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3657␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3657␤  in method gimme at src/…
19:46 [Coke] rakudo: { say $OUTER::_ }
19:46 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
19:46 jnthn OUTER NYI
19:46 * jnthn should do that one...
19:47 [Coke] it used to NPAE
19:48 TimToady .oO(National Party of Automotive Engineers)
19:48 [Coke] Is it a legitimate problem that we cannot run perl6 outside of the build dir if it's not installed? There is a comment on #68636 about this, paraphrased, "what if a user is trying to use rakudo and there's a system parrot they don't have access to?" ... I don't think this is our problem.
19:49 [Coke] we've made it very easy for them to build their own parrot.
19:49 [Coke] (and install it!)
19:54 * [Coke] comments on the ticket, cc's the list, and will close-if-warnocked.
19:54 masak [Coke]++
19:55 [Coke] rakudo: my %h; say %h.WHAT
19:55 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
19:55 [Coke] rakudo: my %h; say %h.WHENCE
19:55 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Method 'WHENCE' not found for invocant of class 'Hash'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/5OnJ5IBAie:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/5OnJ5IBAie:1␤»
19:58 [Coke] ok. Looking at https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ti​cket/Display.html?id=64928, it closes with a reference to WHENCE. the WHAT bit seems to be covered already; can someone write me some code that tests what pmichaud is saying there?
19:59 [Coke] rakudo: sub foo($v, $w?, $x?, $y?){ say $v~"|"~$w~"|"~$x~"|"~$y}; foo(1,,3,);
19:59 p6eval rakudo ce15be: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤1|3||␤»
20:03 [Coke] nom: say 720-81
20:03 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«639␤»
20:06 gbacon joined #perl6
20:07 donri joined #perl6
20:08 [Coke] be nice to get the total number down under 700, even though the "total" number is.
20:11 wk joined #perl6
20:15 icwiener joined #perl6
20:19 mkramer1 joined #perl6
20:38 mkramer1 left #perl6
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20:57 masak heh, Perl 5 hasn't even renamed their "system" to "run" yet, and we're already on "shell" :P
20:58 tadzik :P
20:58 diakopter php has exec and shell_exec
20:58 tadzik and their print is still just say without a newline!
20:58 diakopter as I learned earlier this week while doing some php.
20:58 tadzik *snicker*
20:59 diakopter SCNR always reminds me of *snicker*
20:59 tadzik same here
20:59 tadzik it's like a square-rectangle situation
20:59 masak diakopter: me too!
21:00 masak tadzik: how is it like a square-rectangle situation?
21:00 flussence hey, php's print isn't just say without a newline, it's also echo with a return value!
21:00 diakopter I think tadzik was still talking about p5 there
21:01 flussence (and echo is also a "language construct", which means "we can't be bothered parsing this properly so you can't use it in places where a function call would work"...)
21:01 tadzik no, I meant snicker-scnr
21:01 diakopter heh, I meant your "and your print ..." line
21:01 diakopter *"and their print"
21:01 tadzik as in, where you say "SCNR", snicker would be appliable too. Where you say *snicker*, SCNR not neceserilly would be
21:01 diakopter errors' commedy
21:02 diakopter LOL
21:02 diakopter errors' comedy
21:02 * diakopter gets it
21:03 sorear good * #perl6
21:03 diakopter HOW
21:04 tadzik HOWGH, sorear
21:04 masak tadzik: oh, so you meant it's a superset-subset relationship?
21:04 tadzik masak: yes, exactly
21:04 tadzik phenny: "to tak jak z prostokątem i kwadratem"?
21:04 phenny tadzik: The id to en translation failed, sorry!
21:05 tadzik phenny: pl "to tak jak z prostokątem i kwadratem"?
21:05 phenny tadzik: "it's like a rectangle and square" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
21:05 masak sorear: oh hai -- please apply my humble patch at https://gist.github.com/1288000
21:05 diakopter masak: no ocmmit bit?
21:05 masak haha, prostokątem
21:05 masak diakopter: nope.
21:06 masak tadzik: "kąt" is "angle"?
21:06 masak tadzik: and "prosto" is, hm, "straight"?
21:07 * tadzik lols when imagining masak as an elegant gentleman, in a hat, suit, a monocle, sitting there with a cup-o wine saying "prostokątem" and giggling
21:07 masak well, I've taken off my hat...
21:07 tadzik masak: exactly (translations)
21:08 masak and they say Polish is hard!
21:08 tadzik wcale nie jest :)
21:08 tadzik now say "Brzęczyszczykiewicz"
21:09 masak I managed it, but it took more than three seconds.
21:09 tadzik ;)
21:09 tadzik anyway, you are capable, I even taught you the "tą" and "tę" difference
21:09 masak oh yes.
21:09 tadzik I have a lot of fun correcting proffesors at lectures all the time
21:09 masak which one was the biernik again?
21:09 tadzik
21:10 masak ah, right.
21:10 masak so I thought.
21:11 masak tadzik: you just reminded me of blackouts in Białowieża :)
21:11 tadzik blackouts?
21:11 masak as in, no electricity.
21:11 tadzik oh, right :)
21:11 masak my mind is very situational. topics remind me of the setting the discussion took place in.
21:12 tadzik since I'm living in the Big City I'm not so familiar with blackouts anymore
21:12 tadzik I thought we discussed that one on the bus
21:13 masak we did, too.
21:13 sorear masak: are you trying to tell me you don't have a commit bit yet?  fixed.
21:13 masak \o/
21:13 sorear tadzik: apparently Big City is not located in California.
21:14 * masak crosses out "Perl 6 implementor" on his business card and writes "haz commit bit to all major Perl 6 implementations"
21:14 sorear "and some minor"
21:14 masak no, no minor ones :)
21:14 tadzik sorear: nope, but the small town I used to live in is like 8 kilometers outside of Warsaw, but it has a different power supply, and goes blacked out all the time
21:15 masak sorear: to be fair, you Californians seem to have a thing for recurring blackouts.
21:15 sorear masak: you lost your yapsi bit?
21:15 masak no, just trying to pretend Yapsi isn't a minor implementation...
21:15 masak not doing to well, I see.
21:16 masak too*
21:16 sorear tadzik: I live in a small town with 57k residents and 1-2 yearly blackouts
21:16 tadzik oh, 1-2 yearly blackouts is nothign
21:16 tadzik they're like weekly in Izabelin
21:16 sorear yeah, I have to keep in mind that 99% uptime is still good
21:17 tadzik I mean, they think that if they turn off the power for one second on 1 AM then nobody would notice
21:17 * sorear supposes 57k is a huge city in eastern europe
21:17 tadzik Warsaw is 1 720 398
21:18 tadzik sorear: not really, now as I look at various statistics about Polish cities
21:19 tadzik I'm trying to find something comparable that I've been in
21:19 tadzik erm, been to
21:22 diakopter niecza: my &foo = { say 66 }; BEGIN { foo }; &foo = { say 55 }
21:22 p6eval niecza v10-46-gb99829c: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in class Any␤  at /tmp/1FOlX0sMRs line 1 (MAIN C2_ANON @ 1) ␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at  line 0 (boot-MAIN @ 0) ␤  at  line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/…
21:23 jnthn That assignment isn't at compile time.
21:23 jnthn (so it's correct that it doesn't say 66)
21:27 diakopter niecza: { BEGIN { say 44 } }; BEGIN { say 55 }
21:27 p6eval niecza v10-46-gb99829c: OUTPUT«44␤55␤»
21:31 masak niecza: BEGIN { END { say 3 }; say 1 }; say 2
21:31 p6eval niecza v10-46-gb99829c: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
21:31 masak sorear: ^^
21:31 icwiener joined #perl6
21:33 jnthn nom: BEGIN { END { say 3 }; say 1 }; say 2 # *hope* this works...
21:33 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
21:33 jnthn phew
21:34 diakopter why should that END occur after the say 2 ?
21:34 diakopter doesn't it mean END of that block?
21:34 jnthn END is "end of program"
21:34 benabik nom: BEGIN { LEAVE { say 2 }; say 1 }; say 2
21:34 p6eval nom ce15be: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤LEAVE phaser not yet implemented at line 1, near "; say 1 };"␤»
21:34 jnthn LEAVE is more "end of that block"
21:34 benabik Awh.
21:34 diakopter ah
21:35 jnthn benabik: mls++ is working on that...I should review his patch, when I'm less exhausted than I am today
21:35 masak oh, you too, eh?
21:35 jnthn Teaching does that to me.
21:36 jnthn Especially when it's first time through with a class.
21:36 jnthn Hope to have a few optimizer branch merge shaped tuits tomorrow :)
21:38 sorear masak: END isn't really implemented in niecza... neither is BEGIN for that matter. :)
21:44 y3llow_ joined #perl6
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21:45 masak heh.
21:45 wk sorear: in Estonia we have 47 cities and 3 are bigger than yours :)
21:46 tadzik :P
21:59 saaki joined #perl6
22:01 masak wk: Oh, sa oled Eestist?
22:03 wk masak: Jah, lisaks Perlile valdad Sa eesti keelt ka?
22:05 masak ei :)
22:06 wk masak: how sad :)
22:06 masak Minu vanaisa oli Eestist, kuigi.
22:07 pmurias sorear: what's the state of the serializer branch?
22:07 wk masak: your name recalls Estonian
22:08 masak correct.
22:08 wk wk: but could be swedish too (as few as i know swedish names)
22:08 masak no, it's Estonian.
22:09 masak mee saak :)
22:09 wk masak: like 'honey harvest'?
22:11 masak so I'm told.
22:11 wk i did not see it this way
22:11 wk *saw
22:12 masak well, it's not certain that that's where it comes from.
22:12 wk still, it has a sweet story in
22:12 masak :P
22:13 trexy joined #perl6
22:14 sorear o/ trexy
22:15 sorear pmurias: it can compile the setting and has most of the code in place to serialize it, but not all
22:17 wk like Hemingway said: Estonian in every harbor :)
22:19 silug joined #perl6
22:26 sorear I wonder if the instantiation cache for roles ought to be part of the serialized state
22:27 sorear i.e. my ($x, $y); BEGIN $x = Foo[Int]; $y = Foo[Int]; say $x === $y
22:27 sorear I'm leaning to "no"
22:32 am0c joined #perl6
22:40 pmurias sorear: why not?
23:08 masak 'night, libikad.
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