Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-11-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:38 sorear TimToady: ping.  clarification needed on S05:263
01:39 colomon sorear, o/
01:41 sorear TimToady: the description seems to assume that [ :graphs . ] means [ :codes <!:Gc(/M/)> <:Gc(/M/)>* ]
01:42 sorear TimToady: but there are many other kinds of grapheme clusters ... what about CRLF, Korean graphemes, Lao graphemes?
01:43 sorear colomon: hi
01:46 colomon still working on the grand unicode project, I take it?
02:01 sorear yes
02:03 colomon I've peeked at the Gtk# specs looking for pixbuf info, but that's all I've had time for.  Tuits in short supply here.
02:21 TimToady sorear: yes, that bit is partially fossilized, but I'm not sure what to replace it with yet; certainly NFD prefixing is a partial answer, but only a partial answer
02:22 TimToady p5 doesn't really have an answer for this yet either
02:39 sorear TimToady: every extended grapheme cluster which is not a single code point contains in NFD either a Hangul-syllable, a CRLF, or a non-mark character
02:39 sorear TimToady: for :m I can see a solution based on equality of these "nuclei"
02:40 sorear TimToady: I'm still wondering about character properties though.  If we count only the nuclei, what character properties should be given to a CRLF or a Hangul-syllable?
02:41 sorear I would like \w+ and \s+ to DTRT in as many cases as possible
02:42 sorear I'm particularly thinking about the #?niecza 2 skip 'VOWEL SIGNs in identifiers'
02:43 sorear which requires "cjkAccountingNumeric; kAccountingNumeric
02:43 sorear cjkOtherNumeric; kOtherNumeric
02:43 sorear cjkPrimaryNumeric; kPrimaryNumeric
02:44 sorear wtf?
02:44 sorear that was apparently in CUT_BUFFER0
02:45 sorear "पहला" ~~ / :lang(STD) <ident> / # needs to work
02:56 sorear I wonder what that word means, if anything
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04:05 sorear o/ dukeleto
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04:10 dukeleto sorear: howdy
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07:34 cognominal_ nqp: my $a:=<1 2 3  10>; say( @( $a ) )
07:34 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'list' not found for invocant of class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 63 ((file unknown):47) (/tmp/HgMG423s9t:1)␤»
07:34 cognominal_ nqp: my $a:=<1 2 3  10>; say( $a.list )
07:34 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'list' not found for invocant of class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 63 ((file unknown):47) (/tmp/f9AxVCoAB1:1)␤»
07:36 cognominal_ nqp: my $a:=<1 2 3  10>; say( |a )
07:36 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«flattened parameters must be a hash or array␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 71 ((file unknown):51) (/tmp/EJuHBbE5yx:1)␤»
07:36 cognominal_ nqp: my $a:=<1 2 3  10>; say( |$a )
07:36 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«12310␤»
07:36 cognominal_ :)
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08:04 sorear ooh, cool.
08:05 sorear the Unicode 6.1.0 public draft actually _simplifies_ the extended grapheme cluster rules
08:05 sorear the "nuclei" I was talking about earlier?  they are now always at the _beginning_ of the cluster
08:08 moritz sounds like an improvement indeed
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08:36 snarkyboojum does Perl 6 plan to 'internationalize' it's error messages etc?
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09:12 sorear snarkyboojum: yes, that's one of moritz' projects
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09:29 moritz well, not the i18n itself, but laying the foundation for making that possible
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10:12 moritz xkcd++
10:13 tadzik just read that
10:14 tadzik g'morning
10:14 moritz o/ tadzik
10:27 avar hahaha
10:27 avar "Your favorite musical genre is 'post-'"
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11:54 felher masak++ for https://gist.github.com/1293853, very interesting, thnx :)
11:56 flussence bah, why doesn't "map $subref @list" work in p5? :(
11:56 tadzik how about &$subref?
11:57 flussence I've tried several variations of it and the only one that works properly is "map { $subref->($_)
11:57 flussence bleh
11:57 flussence s/$/ } @list /
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12:01 flussence perl6: sub n { :16($^a) }; «a b c d e f».map(&n).say
12:01 p6eval rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«10 11 12 13 14 15␤»
12:01 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\171'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\187'␤*** Undeclared variable: ("$^a",MkPad (padToList [("$_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Scalar"), pe_proto = <Scalar:0x7f64e4319bf9>, pe_flags = MkEntryFlags {ef_isContext = True}, pe_store = <ref:0x7f64e4319…
12:01 p6eval ..niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 773 (warn @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 168 (Mu.Str @ 9) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Nie…
12:03 flussence (I'm rewriting some ugly code at $dayjob, and finding combining List::MoreUtils with subrefs strangely addictive)
12:06 tadzik :)
12:06 cognominal_ flussence, may be you should check perlude?
12:07 cognominal_ http://github.com/eiro/p5-perlude
12:10 flussence wow, that looks pretty useful actually...
12:11 cognominal_ eiro tried to do haskell-like functional programming in perl
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12:12 cognominal_ perlude is a pun on haskell prelude, btw.
12:12 flussence I know just enough haskell to be scared by that example code :)
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12:31 moritz haskell without the static type checks... sounds like lisp :-)
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13:48 dalek nqp/bigint: f7b182b | moritz++ | / (3 files):
13:48 dalek nqp/bigint: float -> bigint op
13:48 dalek nqp/bigint:
13:48 dalek nqp/bigint: round-trips big FLOATVALs
13:48 dalek nqp/bigint: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f7b182b6af
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13:57 cognominal_ moritz, indeed but I think eiro discovered that programming style thru haskell.
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14:24 dalek rakudo/bigint: 9a01b11 | moritz++ | / (2 files):
14:24 dalek rakudo/bigint: use nqp::fromnum_I in Num.Int
14:24 dalek rakudo/bigint: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9a01b1131e
14:28 moritz $ ./perl6 -e 'say 1234e120.Int'
14:28 moritz 123400000000000003208837068643871417054712​276676156029615977549871413097215557082204​9891345893609670390352866249059805954048
14:29 colomon interesting
14:29 moritz the digits after the '12340000000000000' are just the binary zeros that are added after the mantissa of the double is used up
14:30 moritz perl6: say 1234e120.Int
14:30 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Rat: "&Int"␤    at /tmp/jcUjLAFhGR line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
14:30 p6eval ..niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«12340000000000000320883706864387141705​471227667615602961597754987141309721555708220​49891345893609670390352866249059805954048␤»
14:30 p6eval ..rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«-9223372036854775808␤»
14:30 moritz it seems that niecza agrees :-)
14:31 moritz since I've developed that independent of niecza, that's a good sign :-)
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15:52 moritz phenny: tell jnthn about https://gist.github.com/1364229 (rakudo and nqp bigint status summary). I'll mostly be offline between 2011-11-16 and 2011-11-23
15:52 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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15:55 * colomon thinks about volunteering to help with bigint while moritz is gone, only to remember his tuits are sharply limited and unknowable in advance.  :(
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16:00 moritz most of the LHFs have likely been picked
16:01 moritz unless codegen in the SymbolTable counts as LHF, or architecture-dependent bit fiddling :-)
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16:01 * moritz -> afk
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17:03 * jnthn back from trip
17:03 phenny jnthn: 15:52Z <moritz> tell jnthn about https://gist.github.com/1364229 (rakudo and nqp bigint status summary). I'll mostly be offline between 2011-11-16 and 2011-11-23
17:04 jnthn moritz++
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17:05 jnthn phenny: tell moritz thank you! Now the various workshops are done, I should have a good supply of tuits to continue working on bigint. :)
17:05 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
17:06 tadzik o/
17:07 jnthn hi, tadzik
17:07 * jnthn has been immersed in London Perl Workshop and visiting friends and is rather behind with whatever's been going on around here :)
17:08 * tadzik is on Python users group meeting :)
17:08 jnthn :)
17:09 * jnthn enjoyed visiting the Beer User's Group in London ;)
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17:12 kboga \o/ jnthn round-tripped :)
17:13 kboga awful pun... hi btw
17:16 jnthn :P
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17:21 kboga question, should in "src/core/Instant.pm" line 113, the value of pir::time__n perhaps be boxed?
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17:24 jnthn kboga: yeah, it'd be far better to do that explicitly
17:24 jnthn well
17:24 jnthn kinda :0
17:24 jnthn :)
17:24 jnthn The binder actually handles natives just fine.
17:24 jnthn And since it's being used directly as a call argument it'll likely work out
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17:41 TimToady sorear: I really hate the idea of corrupting smartmatching merely to accomodate a poor decision of the Unicode Consortium.
17:43 TimToady though possibly it indicates the need for a case-folded type that smartmatches by also folding the acceptee
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17:46 TimToady so instead of :Blk<ASCII> you could write :Blk(fc 'ascii')
17:47 TimToady but casefolding should be more of a user convenience than a programmer convenience, in my estimation
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17:50 TimToady but it seems like a really bad design for the UC to on the one hand define a really complex and linguistically problematic casefolding operation, and on the other hand require use of it for programming.
17:51 TimToady I think this is one spot where I'd rather fight the Unicode Consortium than cave.
17:54 cognominal_ TimToady is certainly not a caveman.
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17:58 slavik1 we don't know that
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18:04 TimToady slavik1: the French are experts on cavemen
18:08 cognominal_ :)
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18:18 slavik1 "takes one to know one" in full effect?
18:22 [Coke] TimToady: do you read p5p?
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18:30 TimToady [Coke]: nope
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18:33 [Coke] Not to give you any ideas, but someone just said they missed you.
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19:08 sorear TimToady: should we also shun aliases, and require use of <:Gc<Lo>> or <:General_Category<Other_Letter>>?  If so which one?
19:08 sorear the database uses the former for natural space reasons
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19:09 sorear I suppose you're also opposed to casefolding, spacefolding, and hyphen-folding in \c
19:12 djanatyn hey!
19:12 djanatyn has anyone here heard of GCI?
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19:14 colomon Gannett Co, Inc? Great Coasters International?  Grace Communion International? Getty Conservation Institute?
19:16 clairvy joined #perl6
19:16 [Coke] djanatyn: googles Code In. Aye.
19:17 [Coke] TPF is a registered mentoring organization.
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19:22 sorear djanatyn: not sure about TPF, but PaFo was active in last GCI
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19:25 sorear [Coke]: is it possible to get a list of p5p emails sorted by _time_?
19:26 Trashlord what the hell
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19:30 [Coke] sorear: I have no idea. the archives tend to be threaded, I think.
19:31 [Coke] (GCI) both orgs are registered this year (out of a total of under 20 or so)
19:32 sorear [Coke]: could you tell me what thread you're reading, then?
19:33 sorear nntp.perl.org won't tell me which threads are active, and all the other archives I've seen are 6mo-5yr out of date
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19:34 sorear o/ benabik
19:34 benabik o/ sorear
19:34 benabik sorear: You're fast.  My computer had barely finished waking up.
19:34 [Coke] sorerar: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.​perl5.porters/2011/11/msg179175.html
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19:35 * colomon is wishing svn had stash...
19:36 benabik colomon: git-svn is your friend
19:36 [Coke] colomon: git-svn!
19:36 benabik (Or at least it wants to be your friend.)
19:36 colomon Tried it, was not wild about it.
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19:37 colomon I'd probably consider moving the core portion of my svn repo to git before git-svn at this point.
19:37 benabik My experience with git-svn was "not great, but better than raw svn."  Found that cloning the SVN database locally with svnsync (or something like that) made it a lot faster to set up.
19:37 [Coke] colomon: I hated it as an intro to git, but love it now that I am a git user forced to use svn.
19:37 [Coke] (move to git) much better solution if you like git, yes.
19:38 colomon As I recall, part of the problem with git-svn was that I tend to have 10+ different copies of the repo checked out on my machine at once, and git-svn only could work on one?
19:39 [Coke] you could have 10 git-svn checkouts, sure.
19:40 [Coke] I would probably have 10 different local branches in a single git-svn working copy, though.
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19:41 * benabik would probably have one central repo for git->svn and clone -s from it.
19:41 sorear [Coke]: thanks!
19:41 benabik (I think git-svn can handle multiple repos doing the git->svn direction.)
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19:56 djanatyn Is there any perl6 stuff in the Google-Code-In perl project?
19:56 djanatyn if there is, I'm really interested in participating.
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19:57 colomon Seems like something perl6 can be arranged, no?
19:57 sorear I wouldn't be suprised, there's a very interesting demographic split between the p5 and p6 community
19:57 sorear hi colomon
19:58 [Coke] Need to find the TPF GCI guy and talk to him, I suppose.
19:58 colomon sorear, o/
19:58 colomon I mean, TPF is both p5 and p6.
19:58 colomon Probably just a matter of organizing...
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19:59 [Coke] colomon: yah.
20:01 djanatyn so, what exactly do I have to do to get involved in GCI with perl? :)
20:02 djanatyn my friend just linked it to me because he thought it would be something I was interested in, though he's a perl5 dude
20:02 djanatyn I've written a few things in perl5, but I'm a lot more interested in doing something with perl6
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20:03 benabik I think the GCI process has started, so if Perl 6/TPF hasn't gotten involved yet, it may be too late.
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20:04 djanatyn aww.
20:04 djanatyn well, I'm pretty sure the perl foundation has already started.
20:05 djanatyn wiki.enlightenedperl.org/gci2011
20:06 djanatyn oh, looks like the perl foundation has been officially accepted.
20:06 djanatyn Is...perl6 a seperate entity from the perl foudnation?
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20:14 colomon djanatyn: nope, TPF is over us, too
20:14 colomon well, for some sense of "over us", anyway.
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20:16 colomon hmmm... guess the question is, is it still possible for Parrot and TPF to submit more tasks?
20:17 * colomon is busy surfing the Code-In web pages, which seem to have about half the information he'd like to find...
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20:30 colomon http://wiki.enlightenedperl​.org/gci2011/gci2011/ideas -- and the front page seems to imply task ideas can still come in.  perhaps we need to have a #perl6 brainstorming session and add a batch?
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20:37 dalek 6model: 48d0b24 | diakopter++ | lua/compiler/ (2 files):
20:37 dalek 6model: rollback the STable and FormWith 'optimization' attempts...
20:37 dalek 6model: review: https://github.com/diakopte​r/6model/commit/48d0b24f74
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20:39 [Coke] note that students don't go live until... monday, I think.
20:39 [Coke] (working with local HS teacher here to get us some more students this year.)
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20:42 GlitchMr perl6: 1/∞
20:42 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\8734'␤*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    at /tmp/cQlM9UVNBZ line 1, column 4␤»
20:42 p6eval ..niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Bogus term at /tmp/QGzQavTryH line 1:�------> [32m1/[33m�[31m∞[0m��Parse failed��»
20:42 p6eval ..rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "1/\u221e"␤»
20:42 GlitchMr How can I add support for "∞" in Perl 6?
20:43 GlitchMr perl6: sub ∞ {Inf}; print 1/∞
20:43 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\8734'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\8734'␤*** ␤    Unexpected "\8734"␤    expecting "=", subroutine parameters, trait or block␤    at /tmp/jMuoAC42sS line 1, column 5␤»
20:43 p6eval ..niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Malformed block at /tmp/uymMQ7_ZUv line 1:�------> [32msub [33m�[31m∞ {Inf}; print 1/∞[0m��Parse failed��»
20:43 p6eval ..rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed block at line 1, near "\u221e {Inf}; p"␤»
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20:43 GlitchMr ... doesn't work...
20:43 GlitchMr Too bad...
20:43 TimToady niecza: constant term:<∞> = Inf;  say ∞
20:43 p6eval niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Colonpair traits NYI at /tmp/AWBrXErpAU line 1:â�¤------> [32mconstant term:<∞> [33mâ��[31m= Inf;  say ∞[0mâ�¤â�¤Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument a…
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20:47 TimToady you can't use bare ∞ as an identifier, since it's not considered alphanumeric
20:47 GlitchMr :(
20:47 TimToady that's where term:<∞> is supposed to help
20:47 GlitchMr But ∞ is number...
20:47 GlitchMr So it's alphanumeric ;). I guess it's not alphanumeric for Unicode...
20:48 clairvy joined #perl6
20:48 [Coke] Unicode thinks it's a math symbol, aye.
20:48 GlitchMr Makes sense...
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20:49 TimToady std: constant term:<∞> = Inf; say ∞
20:49 p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/5yzj1CVqo_ line 1:�------> [32mconstant term:<∞> = Inf; say[33m�[31m ∞[0m�Confused at /tmp/5yzj1CVqo_ line 1:�…
20:49 TimToady hmm
20:49 clairvy joined #perl6
20:49 TimToady std: constant term:<∞> = Inf; ∞ ∞
20:49 p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Bogus statement at /tmp/t8xA9nHCTG line 1:�------> [32mconstant term:<∞> = Inf; [33m�[31m∞ ∞[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:01 121m�»
20:49 TimToady I though term: was ipmlemented
20:49 TimToady *ght
20:50 clairvy joined #perl6
20:50 GlitchMr s/ipm/imp/; # ?
20:50 TimToady that too
20:51 clairvy joined #perl6
20:53 TimToady std: sub term:<∞>() { Inf }; say ∞
20:53 p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 125m␤»
20:53 TimToady niecza: sub term:<∞>() { Inf }; say ∞
20:53 p6eval niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«Infinity␤»
20:53 TimToady \o/
20:53 TimToady niecza: sub term:<∞>() { Inf }; say ∞ ∞
20:53 p6eval niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Confused at /tmp/7uQVjLZCFx line 1:�------> [32msub term:<∞>() { Inf }; say ∞ [33m�[31m∞[0m��Parse failed��»
20:54 TimToady and is parsed as a term
20:54 japhb sub term:<∞>() { Inf }; say ~∞
20:54 japhb niecza: sub term:<∞>() { Inf }; say ~∞
20:54 p6eval niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«Infinity␤»
20:54 jnthn That should probably be Inf, iirc
20:54 japhb Shouldn't that .Str to 'Inf'?
20:54 jnthn o/ japhb :)
20:54 japhb jinx
20:54 japhb o/
20:55 jnthn ok, now I have tuits again...albeit slightly tired ones this evening...
20:55 japhb (In the Str.Numeric() rewrite, 'Inf' disallows trailing characters, and in the stress test, 'Infinity' is one of the cases that is supposed to fail.  :-) )
20:56 japhb Yay for tuits!
20:56 jnthn Yeah, my workshoppin' is done for the year. :)
20:57 clairvy joined #perl6
20:58 japhb BTW, even though it still has problems, moritz++'s bigint work led to a Str.Numeric() stress test with several hundred results incorrectly typed as Num correctly returning Int or Rat instead.
20:58 jnthn oh noes, current nqp build fails for me
20:58 cooper joined #perl6
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21:00 japhb And holy cow, TimToady, let me just say that when you decide to generalize something, you don't mess around!
21:01 jnthn inline op nqp_bigint_is_big
21:01 jnthn OH RLY?
21:01 jnthn :D
21:01 clairvy joined #perl6
21:03 dalek nqp/bigint: f41528b | jnthn++ | src/ops/nqp_bigint.ops:
21:03 dalek nqp/bigint: Work around MSVC++ being too clever and catching a compile time divide by zero.
21:03 dalek nqp/bigint: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f41528b8d8
21:10 clairvy joined #perl6
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21:20 jnthn phenny: tell moritz Hm. On my platform the "to_num and from_num round-trip" tests fail
21:20 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
21:25 clairvy joined #perl6
21:32 clairvy joined #perl6
21:32 jnthn phenny: tell moritz ah, it's off by a tiny bit... 1.23456789e+248 vs 1.23456788999987e+248.
21:32 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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21:45 jnthn OK, seems Num.Rat is totally hosed on my system
21:47 jnthn oh, no wonder
21:47 jnthn > say 1e1.Int
21:47 jnthn 0
21:47 benabik That doesn't seem right.
21:47 jnthn Indeed
21:49 clairvy joined #perl6
21:55 moritz ouch
21:55 phenny moritz: 17:05Z <jnthn> tell moritz thank you! Now the various workshops are done, I should have a good supply of tuits to continue working on bigint. :)
21:55 phenny moritz: 21:20Z <jnthn> tell moritz Hm. On my platform the "to_num and from_num round-trip" tests fail
21:55 phenny moritz: 21:32Z <jnthn> tell moritz ah, it's off by a tiny bit... 1.23456789e+248 vs 1.23456788999987e+248.
21:55 jnthn moritz: What does this output for you:
21:55 jnthn https://gist.github.com/1365326
21:56 jnthn moritz: Added my output to the gist
21:57 * moritz too
21:57 jnthn ok...different
21:57 jnthn if I change the test code to
21:57 jnthn my $float := 12345;
21:57 jnthn I get out
21:58 jnthn 12345
21:58 jnthn 0
21:58 jnthn 0
21:59 jnthn Goes without saying the test suite gets interesting with this issue ;-)
21:59 jnthn (many hangs!)
21:59 moritz seems I hosed the conversion of the small floats
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22:00 moritz ah, I see why
22:01 jnthn moritz: But...it works for you? Or?
22:01 moritz no
22:01 * moritz compiles a possible fix
22:01 jnthn \o/
22:02 jnthn moritz: How do I trigger the Rat compilation issue? I suspect I know how to fix it...but the thing I thought would show it here actually works now :)
22:02 jnthn ("say -1.56079666010823" used to give a very wrong answer, but now does not)
22:02 moritz the problem is nqp_bigint.ops lines 63..65
22:02 moritz jnthn: I guess you need to compile a long Rat to PIR
22:03 moritz something like 3.14444444444444444444444444444444444444
22:03 jnthn oh!
22:03 moritz better to add an odd number at the end :-)
22:04 dalek nqp/bigint: beb69a6 | moritz++ | src/ops/nqp_bigint.ops:
22:04 dalek nqp/bigint: unbust conversion from float to bigint (hopefully)
22:04 dalek nqp/bigint: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/beb69a6fec
22:05 clairvy joined #perl6
22:05 * jnthn tries the patch
22:06 jnthn moritz: seems to help my nqp example
22:06 clairvy joined #perl6
22:06 jnthn moritz: I still have the smaller error for the test 26 and 27 of 60-bigint.t
22:08 jnthn OK, let's have another go around the spectest :)
22:09 moritz jnthn: do you know how many bits your FLOATVAL mantissa has, and what DIGIT_BIT is on your platform?
22:09 jnthn moritz: not off hand; I guess DIGIT_BIT is easy to find out...
22:10 clairvy joined #perl6
22:13 jnthn moritz: here, DIGIT_BIT = 28
22:13 moritz OH
22:13 moritz it's 60 here
22:14 jnthn Curious. I'm on a 64-bit platform too
22:14 moritz then I see why it loses precision
22:14 jnthn Microsoft (R) C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 16.00.30319.01 for x64
22:14 jnthn It even says it's compiling as 64-bit. Interesting.
22:14 moritz jnthn: I can you can tweak some #define's to make 60 bit too then
22:14 clairvy joined #perl6
22:16 jnthn looking at them
22:16 moritz anyway
22:17 moritz what the conversion currently does is devide and modf by 2 ** DIGIT_BIT
22:17 moritz *divide
22:17 moritz that's enough if DIGIT_BIT >= mantissa of double (52 bit iirc)
22:17 moritz if that's not the case, we'd need to rinse & repeat
22:18 moritz until (no_of_repetitions + 1) * DIGIT_BIT >= 52
22:18 moritz erm, -1
22:19 jnthn moritz: Do you get a great deal of spectest fail, ooc?
22:19 jnthn The main thing I see is hangs.
22:20 jnthn t\spec\S02-types\infinity.rakudo, t\spec\S32-num\int.rakudo and t\spec\S32-num\rat.rakudo all do so
22:21 jnthn ah
22:21 jnthn my $x = Inf.Int
22:21 jnthn yeah, don't need the assignment :)
22:21 jnthn nom: say Inf.Int
22:22 p6eval nom ef4702: OUTPUT«-9223372036854775808␤»
22:22 jnthn perl6: say Inf.Int
22:22 p6eval niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«1797693134862315907729305190789024733​61797697894230657273430081157732675805500963​13270847732240753602112011387987139335765878​97688144166224928474306394741243777678934248​65485276302219601246094119453082952085005768​8381506823424628814739131105408272371633505…
22:22 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Num: "&Int"␤    at /tmp/Qzc_4WIvsu line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
22:22 p6eval ..rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«-9223372036854775808␤»
22:23 jnthn niecza: say Inf.Int.Str.chars
22:23 p6eval niecza v11-23-g18f7db0: OUTPUT«309␤»
22:23 jnthn Apparently, infinity is 309 digits long :D
22:24 jnthn OTOH, it's closer to inifinity that what Rakudo currently does :P
22:26 sorear japhb: niecza just uses System.Double.ToString(Cul​tureInfo.InvariantCulture)
22:27 jnthn sorear: I'm jnthn ;)
22:27 sorear japhb: writing a proper Str.Numeric/Num.Str is on my long-term TODO
22:27 jnthn oh
22:27 jnthn similar topic, but right person after all :)
22:27 jnthn sorry :)
22:27 jnthn sorear: any opinions on what Inf.Int should do?
22:28 jnthn moritz: All the hanging tests boil down to Inf.Int.
22:28 clairvy joined #perl6
22:28 sorear jnthn: last time I pressed TimToady on this, the opinion I got was that Inf ~~ Int already so it was a noop
22:28 jnthn o>O
22:28 sorear jnthn: also we still need to figure out how Failure ~~ Int is going to work
22:28 jnthn I'm...not sure how to fit that into my mental model.
22:29 jnthn Oh, I'd assumed that one could work becuase you mix in to individual objects.
22:29 Sarten-X joined #perl6
22:29 moritz jnthn: ah right, need to special-case that one. I guess it should fail() or die() for now
22:29 moritz same for Rat.Int
22:29 sorear I have the same mental model issue
22:30 jnthn moritz: wfm
22:30 moritz speaking of mental models...
22:30 sorear niecza's Num/exact-Rat converter is a bit simplistic
22:30 moritz 99 ** 99 # are these two numbers Int or int ?
22:31 moritz if they are allowed to be int, then the operation might overflow
22:31 sorear 2000000000 + 2000000000 # are these two numbers Int or int, on a 32-bit system?
22:31 sorear I think it's very obvious the result should be 4e9.Int
22:31 * jnthn waves his hands about :)
22:32 moritz sorear: exactly my question... but I'm not sure about the result -)
22:32 jnthn I've been seeing the literals as kinda polymorphic
22:32 jnthn But it gets a bit odd
22:32 preflex joined #perl6
22:32 jnthn Especially when dispatchy issues arise
22:32 jnthn (like the two mentioned)
22:33 jnthn I guess we lean towards Int but lower to int "when context suggests we should"
22:33 sorear moritz: I would argue that if user code does not explicitly contain the token "int" it should not be wordsize-sensitive
22:34 sorear this is a case of constant allomorphism
22:34 jnthn sorear: I agree in a sense. Knowing what to do in the my int $x = 42; case isn't so much the issue
22:34 sorear 99 has to be either int or Int, depending on context
22:34 jnthn It's knowing what to then do with $x + 1
22:34 jnthn And we normally don't flow context in that kinda way
22:35 sorear int + constant is like int + int, Int + constant = Int + Int, constant + constant = Int + Int
22:36 sorear *waves*
22:36 clairvy joined #perl6
22:37 jnthn sorear: heh, that's where I'd kinda got to :)
22:37 jnthn Though the optimizer gets a bit overexcited about the constant + constant case at the moment...
22:37 japhb sorear, re: Num.Str: ah, OK, NYCI, got it.
22:37 sorear rakudo: say 8_000_000_000_000_000_000
22:37 p6eval rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«8000000000000000000␤»
22:38 sorear rakudo: say 8_000_000_000_000_000_000 + 8_000_000_000_000_000_000
22:38 p6eval rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:eval_ins: op 'add_i_n_n' not found␤␤    in file '(file unknown)' line 37795777␤»
22:38 sorear What?
22:38 sorear rakudo: my $x = 8_000_000_000_000_000_000; say $x + $x
22:38 p6eval rakudo ef4702: OUTPUT«-2446744073709551616␤»
22:38 jnthn sorear: f**king imcc
22:38 japhb sorear, re: constant + constant: shouldn't that be => constant-fold(constant + constant) => constant-fold(Int + Int) => constant-polymorphic?
22:38 jnthn sorear: It converts an I literal into an N literal
22:38 jnthn sorear: If it detects it'll overflow
22:38 sorear japhb: yes, ish
22:38 jnthn o.O
22:39 jnthn sorear: On my box it further gets it wrong, having 64-bit integer registers, but only letting in 32-bit literals :(
22:39 * sorear wonders how close rakudo is to ditching imcc
22:40 moritz the bigint branch detects size of integers > what the platform can hold, and emits different code for that
22:40 moritz (at least on platforms where nqp::isbig_I works properly)
22:40 moritz (and if those integers don't form rats :/ )
22:41 clairvy joined #perl6
22:41 jnthn moritz: What spectest fallout do you get from the rat issue?
22:41 jnthn moritz: Is it only a pre-comp issue?
22:42 jnthn (I understand the pre-comp issue, I'm just struggling on how it affects the spectests much)
22:42 clairvy joined #perl6
22:42 moritz jnthn: I think it's not only precomp, but I don't really understand it :(
22:42 moritz it seems that some rat literals come out completely wrong, even without precomp
22:43 moritz but my debugging output from radcalc seems to imply that the rats get created with the right numerator and denominator, so I'm kinda lost
22:44 jnthn moritz: I used to see a load of tests in the trig
22:44 jnthn moritz: But that's all cleared up here now
22:44 jnthn pi.t aside
22:44 moritz \o/
22:45 moritz I won't get around to the Num.Int fix for Inf/-Inf/NaN tonight
22:45 moritz ETOOCLOSETOSLEEP
22:45 jnthn moritz: OK, working on that here
22:45 jnthn moritz: Would be good to have examples of rats that fail for you
22:45 clairvy joined #perl6
22:46 moritz jnthn: they might be gone too, will see after the recompile
22:46 jnthn k
22:46 moritz (now running through IMCC)
22:47 moritz urks... forgot to install nqp
22:47 jnthn oh noes
22:47 clairvy joined #perl6
22:47 moritz $ ./perl6 -e 'say 0.523598775603156'
22:47 moritz 0.695983722377273
22:48 tadzik :P
22:48 jnthn > say 0.523598775603156
22:48 moritz (that's without the last NQP fix, but I think it should be unrelated)
22:48 jnthn 0.523598775603156
22:48 jnthn :(
22:48 jnthn Works here :/
22:48 moritz will see tomorrow
22:48 moritz sleep &
22:48 jnthn o/
22:49 colomon \o
22:50 sorear seems Perl 5 can't do
22:50 sorear seems Perl 5 can't do "spin̈al" =~ /\w+/ correctly either.
22:50 jnthn > my $PI = 3.141592653589e0;
22:50 jnthn 0.552631241154582
22:50 jnthn hm
22:51 sorear In Texas π is 3 / In Slovakia it's just over 1/2 ...
22:53 jnthn :P
22:53 dalek rakudo/bigint: 296212e | jnthn++ | src/core/Num.pm:
22:53 dalek rakudo/bigint: fail for Inf.Int and Inf.Rat. Maybe not the perfect solution, but it's far better than hanging.
22:53 dalek rakudo/bigint: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/296212ebe9
22:53 jnthn Only 3? I'da thunk it'd be much bigger
22:53 sorear something something Ezekiel something
22:54 tadzik they have pi in farenheits?
22:54 thou joined #perl6
22:54 japhb jnthn, in Texas those are Texas-sized integers.  A 3 in Texas is bigger than a house in one of those other states ....
22:55 clairvy joined #perl6
22:55 envi_ joined #perl6
22:55 sorear jnthn: so I've heard ch is a letter in Slovakia.
22:56 jnthn Well, it represents a single sound, if that's what you mean by letter :)
22:56 tadzik "cz"? :)
22:56 tadzik . o O ( Brzęczyszczykiewicz )
22:56 tadzik I think it's called a vowel
22:57 jnthn oh
22:57 jnthn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch_%28digraph%29
22:57 tadzik I once heard that only a Polish man can distinguish "sz" from "sh" and "ś"
22:57 jnthn Wikipedia has it as "a letter"
22:57 tadzik funny, they never told me it's a letter
22:57 jnthn My Slovak teacher never really explained it to me that way though.
22:58 jnthn But after a while my brane chunked the two.
22:58 japhb jnthn, in commit 296212ebe9, you say "Cannot coerce NaN to an Int" where it looks like you meant Inf instead of NaN.
22:58 tadzik also, there's nothing about it being a letter on Polish wikipedea
22:58 japhb And actual, in the 'to Rat' message as well
22:58 tadzik it's called a digraph, being a set of two letters
22:58 tadzik so, not a letter
22:59 tadzik (says mi limited knowledge)
23:00 jnthn japhb: also I missed the negatives :/
23:00 clairvy joined #perl6
23:00 sorear I wonder if, instead of pestering TimToady about 'what does \p{hst:lvt} even mean in grapheme cluster mode'
23:00 japhb jnthn, yup.  :-)
23:00 sorear I should take my questions to the people on the top of UTR18
23:01 sorear Mark Davis and Andy Heninger
23:02 clairvy joined #perl6
23:05 sorear seems both are ICU hackers
23:06 dalek rakudo/bigint: e4cd7a4 | jnthn++ | src/core/Num.pm:
23:06 dalek rakudo/bigint: fail for Inf.Int and Inf.Rat. Maybe not the perfect solution, but it's far better than hanging.
23:06 dalek rakudo/bigint: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e4cd7a42f9
23:06 clairvy joined #perl6
23:09 masak gu-reetings, #perl6
23:10 tadzik . o O ( wild idea: JAPH printed from substrings of exceptions )
23:10 clairvy joined #perl6
23:10 tadzik hello masak
23:10 jnthn o/ masak
23:11 masak TimToady: jnthn hadn't seen your recent speculations about macros, so I gave him a summary. we Talked It Over. up until now I've been resisting the introduction of a new placeholder sigil, but jnthn pointed out a few real weaknesses in the idea of non-term placeholders.
23:12 masak two, to be exact. I'll list them as I remember them.
23:12 clairvy joined #perl6
23:13 masak (1) with terms, parsing is easy. with any kind of grammatical category, we... can't parse. (as I understood it.) specifically, some operators such as assignment are very magical and generate wildly different ASTs.
23:13 masak it feels... wrong to throw out parsability at parse-time.
23:14 jnthn (the simpler case is that if we don't know the precedence we can't parse...)
23:14 masak oh right!
23:14 masak yeah, the optable parser simply cannot operate (no pun intended) under such circumstances.
23:14 masak I was quite relieved when I realized that. :)
23:14 masak because if it's impossible, I don't have to implement it, right?
23:15 clairvy joined #perl6
23:15 masak right? :S
23:15 masak (2) none of the three syntaxes for macro invocation (subcall, listop, operator) allow for passing non-terms.
23:15 masak that indicates (to me, at least), that macros are for terms.
23:15 masak s/\),/)/
23:16 clairvy joined #perl6
23:16 jnthn masak: no, as Perl 6 implementors we're expected to the impossible ;P
23:16 masak augh
23:17 masak probably three times before breakfast, too.
23:17 masak or was that just thinking the impossible? I forget.
23:17 sorear maaaaasaaaak
23:17 masak soooooreaaaar
23:17 * masak runs over a field towards sorear in slow motion with outstreched arms
23:18 diakopter lol "over"
23:18 masak um. "across"?
23:18 clairvy joined #perl6
23:18 masak English. it's hard.
23:18 diakopter yeah
23:19 sorear aaagh.  that was my last field, I'll have to use rings now
23:19 masak I've been in .uk over the weekend. that probably broke my preposition box.
23:19 jnthn Huh? Why you not speak Queen's English now?
23:19 diakopter I suppose one can mow over a field
23:20 masak jnthn: the Queen freaks me out. she lays so many eggs.
23:20 clairvy joined #perl6
23:20 masak sorear: I had to throw all the fields away because they had become skewed.
23:20 jnthn masak: Plus she looks kinda old. Not surprising, given she has 10 times the lifespan or ordinary workers...
23:20 masak jnthn: *lol*
23:20 jnthn *of
23:20 masak jnthn: this explains everything
23:21 masak everyone else: jnthn is referring to regex jokes in my recent presentation.
23:21 masak well, one of them.
23:21 tadzik I thought it's somewhat about bees
23:22 masak tadzik: it's about Reuters who s/\bthe queen\b/Queen Elisabeth/g in their news.
23:22 masak tadzik: it worked OK until they had an article about bees.
23:22 tadzik :>
23:23 clairvy joined #perl6
23:23 masak clairvy: hey, cut it out!
23:24 tadzik oh, you also don't ignore enter/leave events? :)
23:25 sorear masak: I tried banning clairvy once.  Didn't work.
23:25 jnthn sorear: ...didn't work?
23:25 masak tadzik: no, I consider them useful. except when people have some kind of autojoin mechanism on.
23:25 sorear jnthn: despite never talking, ey knows about ban evasion
23:25 clairvy joined #perl6
23:26 sorear maybe if I set something really wide like $x:*clairvy*
23:26 jnthn sorear: fine by me
23:26 masak +1
23:26 sorear mode #perl6 +b
23:26 tadzik masak: especially then I find them useless :)
23:29 sorear tadzik: there is a large contingent of users, like masak and benabik, who join when they want to talk and part when they don't
23:29 masak well, used to.
23:29 masak now I'm running irssi+screen.
23:29 tadzik sorear: I wouldn't call that large
23:30 sorear as distinguished from people like me, who never join/quit, and people like pmurias and clairvy, who join/quit constantly for no reason
23:30 tadzik sorear: and that's exactly the reason why I pay no attention to that; in the world I see, the knowledge about someone being on the channel or not is worthless
23:30 sorear also someday I should persuade moritz to let me fix the lack of quit reporting in ilbot
23:30 sorear but that would require effort
23:30 flussence I've been trying to think up a cleverer algorithm for join/part messages than "barf everything to screen asap". Preferably one that does what everyone wants...
23:31 tadzik I wanted to have a 2-3 line wide buffer on top of the weechat/irssi window
23:31 tadzik there was even an irssi theme like that, which, as some people claim, didn't segfault at some point in history
23:32 tadzik also, those few people who actually join and quit when they want to usually say "hello" and "bye", and that's fine for me
23:32 tadzik </opinion>
23:33 masak I'll be not-very-active in the next two days. will be teaching. however, I'm eager to blog about the macro work so far, as well as dig into the last bit of D1.
23:33 masak for now, 'night #perl6
23:33 tokuhirom joined #perl6
23:35 tadzik o/
23:36 sorear o/
23:38 djanatyn hey, back.
23:39 tadzik hey djanatyn
23:40 ab5tract joined #perl6
23:40 djanatyn is there anyone here I can talk to about Google Code-In?
23:41 djanatyn Should I like, submit a resume or sample code or something?
23:41 tadzik no, nope
23:41 tadzik you just apply for the specific task
23:41 tadzik then you have like 24 hours to deliver the result, then you pick another task
23:43 djanatyn Oh, cool.
23:43 djanatyn Where are the tasks?
23:44 tadzik well, GCI has not yet officially started, methinks
23:44 djanatyn Oh, interesting
23:44 djanatyn do I need to sign up somewhere first?
23:44 tadzik I suppose so
23:44 tadzik http://www.google-melange.com​/gci/homepage/google/gci2011
23:44 djanatyn I'm pretty excited, I haven't really done anything like this before :)
23:44 djanatyn thanks
23:45 krakan joined #perl6
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23:51 whiteknight joined #perl6
23:58 jnthn 'night, #perl6
23:59 benabik joined #perl6

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