Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-11-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:41 snarkyboojum how do you use RT to find items that are marked "testneeded"?
00:44 snarkyboojum ah - there's a tag
00:44 snarkyboojum 'testneeded'
00:44 snarkyboojum :)
00:44 snarkyboojum RT isn't so hard to use after all :)
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06:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 2154ebb | moritz++ | src/core/ (4 files):
06:31 dalek rakudo/nom: fix comparison ops for Complex numbers
06:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2154ebb58e
06:38 moritz nom: CONTROL { default { say "warning" } }; ~Any
06:38 p6eval nom 4a4601: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤»
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07:03 dalek roast: 04c0281 | moritz++ | S32-num/complex.t:
07:03 dalek roast: comparison with < of complex numbers dies (RT #104660)
07:03 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/04c02810fa
07:03 dalek roast: f75b379 | moritz++ | S03-operators/inplace.t:
07:03 dalek roast: rakudo unfudges
07:03 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f75b379740
07:06 dalek roast: 5af9d23 | moritz++ | S12-class/augment-supersede.t:
07:06 dalek roast: test for augment on lexical class, RT #74910
07:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5af9d23b89
07:20 sorear good * #perl6
07:24 moritz \o sorear
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08:02 dalek roast: a6ae871 | moritz++ | / (5 files):
08:02 dalek roast: various rakudo unfudges, most related to the list fixes by jnthn++
08:02 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a6ae871ea4
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09:20 Woodi what is the best way to get v5 working cooperative with v6 ?
09:26 moritz hack blizkost, I think
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09:29 snarkyboojum and there was the stuff pmurias was doing in Niecza to embed a Perl 5 interpreter (I think)
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09:37 Woodi is 'testneeded' a something someone can look into ?
09:38 Woodi ah, thank you snarkyboojum :)
09:39 * JimmyZ commented to news.perlfoundation.org/2011/11/ha​gue-grant-application-plperl.html
09:39 snarkyboojum Woodi: search in RT for open bugs with the tag 'testneeded', and write tests for the fixes I'm guessing
09:41 Woodi do TPF just hire jnthn (if hi wants) for year or two ? :)
09:41 moritz Woodi: http://rakudo.de/testneeded
09:41 * JimmyZ doesn't think TPF has enough money
09:42 Woodi thanx
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09:45 Woodi oO(some community collecting grant?)
09:47 sorear o/ snarkyboojum
09:47 snarkyboojum sorear \o
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10:02 Woodi hmm, this 'needtest' work is just: a) read tickets b) copy&paste trouble making code into test file ?
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10:09 Timbus http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/757 its been a while since I've checked this ticket. and now I'm even more sadfaced
10:10 Timbus what the heck does everyone else program?? 99% of everything i do is event and thread based.
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10:12 Woodi Timbus: WWW, text procesing, numbers counting, such things :)
10:13 Timbus WWW with coroutines leads to some pretty cool stateful webpages
10:14 Woodi Timbus: can you give example ?
10:14 Timbus coroutines in the 'cooperative threads' sense, not this bizarre 'continuable sub' example the synopsis talks about
10:15 rsimoes1 I missed the first half of this conversation
10:15 rsimoes1 What module are you guys looking at?
10:15 moritz rsimoes1: http://irc.perl6.org/ has the entire conversation
10:16 Woodi rsimoes1: last two days are silent here...
10:16 Timbus man, where is the good Coro webserver example
10:16 Timbus :<
10:17 rsimoes1 Corona
10:17 Timbus the idea is you just serve a page and then 'cede', to pause the coroutine. when the client clicks 'next' or whatever, the coroutine stars again
10:18 rsimoes1 Continuity for a super clever WAF
10:18 Timbus starts*
10:18 Timbus ah, Continuity might be it
10:18 moritz Timbus: you can do that with a lazy 'map' in Perl 6
10:18 Woodi so one coroutine per user ?
10:19 Timbus that.. feels wrong, moritz :/
10:21 Woodi ufo hangs for me :)
10:23 Woodi no, work OK
10:33 alvis joined #perl6
10:34 Woodi just get a lot of 'Use of uninitialized value in string context' warnings without script interruption... it's need to be that way ?
10:35 masak *yawn*. good morning, #perl6
10:37 moritz good masak, morniing
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11:18 jnthn afternoon, #perl6
11:18 masak jnthn! \o/
11:19 jnthn Woodi: (testneeded) it's kinda copy paste; the work is mostly in finding an appropriate test file to add it to and then twiddling it a bit to be a test (so it calls "is"/"ok" etc)
11:19 jnthn o/ masak
11:22 jnthn moritz++ # unfudges
11:25 masak Timbus: events and threads likely need to be tackled simultaneously in the Perl 6 spec. nothing's happening there yet because we're waiting for someone to say "oh, screw this" and replace what's already there with something simple that works, and that we can evolve the final design from.
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11:29 Woodi masak: maybe we should talk more about "how should Perl6 parallel stuff look like ?" ? For example I can (continue?) read wiki and ask stupid questions :)
11:29 masak hm. "routines allow you to abstract over values. generics/parametric roles allow you to abstract over types. macros allow you to abstract over code."
11:30 masak Woodi: we know how it "should look" on a high level. see S17. that's likely to change a bit, but we at least have some ideas already.
11:30 masak Woodi: we also know how it will probably look on a low level. jnthn maintains that CAS is the only reasonable primitive on which to build bigger chunks.
11:31 masak but someone needs to take charge of providing a "big picture" out of all that.
11:31 masak an open question is how threading fits together with event systems.
11:32 masak and how much or how little will Perl 6 provide out of the box?
11:32 jnthn masak: Well, I more claimed that you can build everything on CAS. :) But that's more about concurrency control, not just events.
11:32 jnthn You can be single-threaded and do async/event style stuff.
11:33 Woodi my point is that talking and thinking possibly can clarify things. eg. what is Parrot/vm responsibility, what other parallel constructs are possible, eg. futures, what to do ATMwith Actor model...
11:35 Woodi becouse every developer have some thoughts, probably was few discusions too, but time moved and there can be new thougs, new idea available...
11:38 masak Woodi: in a sense, yes. we need to discuss these things and arrive at a sensible model for Perl 6.
11:38 masak Woodi: also, in a sense, no. this is something that one individual needs to sit down and *design*, and it can't be done by committee. it never can.
11:39 Woodi eg. spec says coroutines are uncompatible with multi-dispatch. but it says: multiple entrances with changed parameter list. what without changing params ? it is probably moust used case...
11:39 masak that's the "oh, screw this" part. someone needs to champion a coherent design, and a coherent design comes from one mind, by necessity.
11:40 Woodi masak: no, talking is needed first. becouse some things are Parrot dependend. so mommunity consensus will help a lot
11:40 masak Woodi: read everything in the spec about coroutines and around S17 with a big grano salis.
11:41 Woodi k, will check
11:41 masak Woodi: the Parrot dependencies might matter less than you think. most of these things get designed in Rakudo/nqp first, and then land in Parrot.
11:41 Woodi not sure about this
11:41 Woodi threads for example
11:42 Woodi CAS instruction from hardware passing...
11:44 masak Woodi: you could argue the same thing about NCI, that it "needs Parrot". but it's currently being developed outside of Parrot.
11:44 Woodi how ??
11:44 jnthn By writing code!!
11:45 jnthn Woodi: See nci branch in nqp :)
11:46 masak jnthn++ # by writing code
11:52 Woodi I see Parrot as Perl5 low level stuff implementation, eg. IO buffering. In Perl5 is not good to use sysread becouse in moust cases will be slower then <FH>/<$fh>. so in Rakudo I use .get and hope that Parrot buffering will work that way. now: what parts of parallel stuff should go into Parrot ?
11:53 masak no idea.
11:53 masak it usually doesn't make much sense for Rakudo devs to ask this, because Parrot doesn't cater to just Rakudo.
11:55 Woodi Parrot is common stuff for all things working on Parrot
11:55 dalek nqp/nci: 003586e | jnthn++ | src/6model/reprs/CStruct.c:
11:55 dalek nqp/nci: Fix a copy-paste fail.
11:55 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/003586e509
11:55 dalek nqp/nci: c9d6b20 | jnthn++ | / (465 files):
11:55 dalek nqp/nci: Don't include version number in directory holding dyncall; it'll just make every upgrade annoying.
11:55 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c9d6b203da
11:57 masak Woodi: right, but look at the Parrot object system. doesn't work for Rakudo's needs. Parrot MMD. doesn't work for Rakudo's needs.
11:57 masak Woodi: and evolving them fast enough for Rakudo to be able to use them wasn't an option. so Rakudo had to provide its own, currently through 6model.
11:57 moritz ,jk       u  m  -v    m bb   n#ßb  n    ,    <   m m
11:58 ab5tract joined #perl6
11:58 Woodi "through 6model" written as part of Parrot ?
11:59 masak no.
11:59 moritz 6model is currently part of nqp, not parrot
11:59 Woodi k
12:00 * masak waves to Ronja :)
12:00 alvis joined #perl6
12:00 moritz Ronja shouts "whawhawhawhawhawhawha"
12:01 moritz :-)
12:01 * masak bobs happily
12:02 Woodi about 'screw' part :) : just want to note that making that parallel design is not necesary same as implementing it... maybe it will help some bright folks to propose drafts...
12:02 Woodi maybe chromatic ?
12:04 jnthn moritz: So it turns out the dyncall version I'd grabbed had an alignment bug on Win64. Upgrading it now...hopefully it doesn't cause any breakage on $other-platform.
12:04 jnthn Will push in a moment...testing welcome.
12:05 masak Woodi: suggesting a champion won't help much. :/
12:05 moritz jnthn: can we delete the bigint branch in rakudo and nqp?
12:05 tadzik hello #perl6
12:06 Woodi hi tadzik :)
12:06 jnthn moritz: yes
12:06 dalek nqp/nci: 61a0eac | jnthn++ | 3rdparty/dyncall/ (263 files):
12:06 dalek nqp/nci: Upgrade to latest version of dyncall lib, which has Win64 fixes amongst other things.
12:06 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/61a0eac74c
12:07 jnthn woo, Win32 API usage in 3 lines:
12:07 jnthn use NativeCall;
12:07 jnthn sub MessageBoxA(Int, Str, Str, Int) returns Int is native('user32.dll') { * }
12:07 jnthn say MessageBoxA(0, "Hi from Rakudo", "NCI", 0x40);
12:07 masak tadzik! \o/
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12:07 Woodi wow :)
12:08 masak jnthn: wow! \o/
12:08 tadzik nice!
12:08 masak jnthn: you've ushered in an era of Windows development for Perl 6!
12:08 Woodi anybody know someone pasionate in parallel stuff to bring him to Perl community ? :)
12:08 jnthn masak: Well, need callbacks before that... ;)
12:08 masak jnthn: oh, right.
12:08 masak jnthn: what does the 0x40 mean?
12:08 masak is that buttons?
12:09 jnthn masak: 0x40 is "show a cute little 'i' icon in the message box and play an approriate 'oh hai i haz info' sound effect" :)
12:09 jnthn masak: Other flags get you buttons :)
12:09 jnthn And the return value tells you which one was clicked.
12:10 masak oh, it's a general flags thingie for both icons and buttons.
12:10 jnthn right
12:10 masak this reminds me of my VB days :)
12:10 jnthn 0x40 is just a value I remembered
12:10 tadzik :)
12:10 jnthn yeah, I had VB days too :P
12:10 jnthn Since I started programming in BASIC, I'm an irreedambly messed up programmer, apparently.
12:11 masak yup. me too.
12:11 * jnthn can't remember who had the quote about programmers who learn BASIC first... :)
12:11 huf dont worry, *i* started in php.. the hole has no bottom
12:11 huf ie: there's always a lower fish
12:11 snarkyboojum bah, what does Dijkstra know :D
12:11 masak jnthn: Dijkstra.
12:11 jnthn oh, of course!
12:11 jnthn :)
12:12 masak jnthn: and now we're both teaching programming, further spreading the irredemable brain damage :P
12:12 * moritz would love to teach programming too, but should learn it himself first
12:12 snarkyboojum masak: "mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration"
12:12 jnthn moritz: Apparently, you should start with BASIC...
12:13 jnthn :)
12:13 snarkyboojum charming
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12:13 moritz jnthn: I did (but a version which already had subroutines and blocks)
12:13 moritz :-)
12:14 masak moritz: don't tell anyone, but I didn't finish learning how to program either!
12:14 snarkyboojum I started quickly with qbasic :P
12:14 masak I actually touched GWBasic first. but I didn't stay with it for long.
12:14 masak too painful.
12:15 snarkyboojum actually it was logo ;)
12:15 masak Turbo Basic was my eternal companion. only grudgingly did I migrate to QBASIC.
12:15 * Woodi starts with BASIC too... and thinks that saying is not absolute truth...
12:16 masak Woodi: O RLY? :)
12:16 masak Woodi: are you implying that not all of us here are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration? :P
12:17 Woodi yea, same as with optimisation :)
12:17 * moritz tried Perl 6 hacking as redemption. Not really working 100% yet
12:17 masak moritz: no, only 75% according to recent graphs :)
12:19 * moritz doesn't believe in that number at all
12:19 masak well, it means *something*. but maybe not what people think.
12:20 Woodi numbers can be improved by scope tuning :)
12:21 moritz the not meaning what people think it does... that's the reason I stopped with the spectest graphs
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12:21 masak it's a general problem with quantifying things.
12:21 masak reality is complex and summarizing it is hard.
12:22 * Woodi not sugest breaking "what not implement full spec isn't Perl6" in any sense
12:22 * moritz can't parse Woodi's last line
12:22 masak there's a bit of "there's at least one sheep in Scotland that's *white on at least one side*!" to it
12:22 moritz masak: that's quite some wisdom :-)
12:22 * Woodi thinks about English corepetution seriously :)
12:23 moritz jnthn: fwiw parallel build in nqp is broken, but serial build seems to work just fine
12:24 Woodi moritz: I was saying, again, about marking few Perl6 featureas as research or just 'not basic' :)
12:24 moritz Woodi: you're welcome to do so, if you commit to maintain that markings for a while
12:25 Woodi they are all marked 'perlish' and me don't change it :)
12:26 Woodi moritz: it is not hard: eg. hypers... litle futuristic thing (for now)
12:26 moritz Woodi: hypers are implemented already
12:27 moritz they are not really "research" or "experimental" or so
12:27 Woodi not for eventual, new Perl6 implementations. and maybe hypers are bad example
12:28 moritz (well, the duck typing isn't implemented, but that's a really new addition)
12:28 Woodi just propose differentation in features threating
12:28 moritz Woodi: you can't prioritize features for new compilers without knowing how the new compiler will look like
12:29 Woodi moritz: you always can do something even if not everything can be done, in general sense...
12:29 masak I still don't really understand the new proposed duck hypering, but to the extent I understand it I feel it's brittle and dangerous as a feature.
12:29 masak also, I never like more coupling against Cool and Any in various places.
12:30 masak it reduces the ways one can play around with the type system.
12:30 moritz masak: fully agreed
12:30 moritz s/d$//
12:30 masak it's bad enough that we essentially have two "Object" types, Mu and Any.
12:31 moritz Woodi: something can always be done, but the big question is if it does more good than harm
12:31 Woodi isn't duck typing like class categories in Objective-C ? http://developer.apple.com/library/​ios/#documentation/cocoa/conceptual​/objectivec/Chapters/ocCategories.html
12:34 masak Woodi: no, that looks more like monkey patching.
12:35 masak Woodi: duck typing is assuming an object is eligible based on the presence of a method or so.
12:35 Woodi moritz: agree with that. my idea behint that is to shift Perl6 development to more "stable" point comparing to actual languages without breaking development continuity. just proposing shift in community thinking about Perl6
12:36 jnthn moritz: Is parallel build broken inside the dyncall build, something in NQP's makefile, or hard to tell?
12:37 Woodi masak: yes, I thinked about monkey thing. duck typing ?? :)
12:37 * jnthn wants to invent a new kind of typing, just so he gets to pick an animal to name it after
12:37 masak we've regressed with nom more than anyone expected, and for longer than anyone expected. *apart from that*, I think Perl 6 development is doing fairly well. we're heading in the right direction.
12:37 masak jnthn: Dugong typing!
12:38 moritz jnthn: hard to tell
12:41 jnthn masak: Yes, but Rakudo makes a distribution/compiler release distinction in part to handle exactly these kinds of surprises. If people want more stability the latest star release has always been there.
12:45 masak right.
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12:47 masak I'm mostly talking about in-group expectations. the nom transition was supposed to be less involved and quicker than this.
12:47 masak yes, I know there are circumstances involved. and I don't mean to panic or anything.
12:47 jnthn masak: If it had purely been about the new object model, it probably woulda been.
12:47 masak nod
12:48 masak and it might even be that it was just as well to do all those refactors in one go.
12:48 masak while we're under the hood and tinkering anyway, in a sense.
12:48 jnthn masak: It got caught up in a "re-do the setting", "re-do lists" and "do a new regex engine" set of refactors.
12:48 masak nod
12:49 jnthn Yes, we're in a *much* better position for all of those in a technical sense.
12:49 masak jnthn: I don't know if I or anyone has said this before, but I'm *really* glad you're on the project. otherwise I'd have felt a huge Pugs/2007 deja vu at this point.
12:50 masak jnthn++
12:53 jnthn Anyway, I agree it's all taken rather longer than any of us expected. But "a few months longer" on a project of Perl 6 style timescale is small in the big picture, especially for the wins that the nom work has given us.
12:53 jnthn And yes, all of the thing that have been done would probably have had to be at some point anyway.
12:54 jnthn So hopefully in another six months, with a bunch of steadily improving R* releases behind us, it'll look like it was worth it.
12:59 * sjn reads masaks comments, and have to agree: jnthn++
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13:03 masak jnthn: oh, sure. it was with Rakudo Star and the ng refactor that preceded it.
13:05 ab5tract joined #perl6
13:06 * felher joins masak and sjn, jnthn++ :)
13:15 jnthn hmm...naming help
13:15 jnthn The new NativeCall lets you choose your encoding when passing a string off to C
13:15 jnthn (utf8, ascii, etc)
13:15 jnthn I'm pondering doing this as a parameter train
13:15 jnthn er, trait
13:16 jnthn Any thoughts on trait name? Best I've got is "is native_marshall('ascii') or so.
13:18 JimmyZ is encode('ascii')  ?
13:20 alvis joined #perl6
13:23 masak is encoded('ascii') ?
13:23 masak is sent_as('ascii') ?
13:24 masak is encoded_as('ascii') ?
13:24 jnthn hm
13:25 jnthn is marshalled_as('ascii') ? :)
13:25 jnthn Folks seem to prefer "encoded" :)
13:27 Woodi becouse sounds more unix-like... and more huffmanized :)
13:27 masak yeah.
13:29 Woodi k, pizza or diner time...
13:38 dalek nqp/nci: 65cfe28 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
13:38 dalek nqp/nci: Add a way to get the name of the representation an object is based on.
13:38 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/65cfe2841b
13:40 dalek rakudo/nci: 81bbe8e | jnthn++ | src/binder/sixmodelobject.h:
13:40 dalek rakudo/nci: Grab latest sixmodelobject.h.
13:40 dalek rakudo/nci: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/81bbe8e7aa
13:40 dalek rakudo/nci: fb11f7d | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
13:40 dalek rakudo/nci: Implement .REPR.
13:40 dalek rakudo/nci: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fb11f7d903
13:40 dalek zavolaj/v2: e293ff0 | jnthn++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
13:40 dalek zavolaj/v2: Add CStruct passing support. Improve error message when trying to pass a class or other object not based on CStruct.
13:40 dalek zavolaj/v2: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/e293ff0a05
14:07 masak so, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle
14:08 masak I posit that knowing about the hype cycle is not enough to prevent it from happening to a project.
14:09 masak which is all kinds of interesting when you think about it. you can point to a certain phase of the graph, and say "we are here -- and *there's nothing we can do about it*, except to continue forwards"
14:10 masak of course, with all these things, be it "trough of disillusionment", or "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you", or "every project starts with an individual with a dream"...
14:11 donri joined #perl6
14:11 masak ...I always try to remind myself that the same holds true for projects that *don't* bootstrap themselves off the ground. :)
14:11 masak so being an individual with a dream, or going through a trough of disillusionment might be necessary, but it's not sufficient.
14:12 masak </ramble>
14:12 sayu joined #perl6
14:13 tadzik lesson learned: reviewing translations requires a lot of mentoring time
14:14 tadzik while I'm at it, I think today's the time we should start adding our tasks to melange. I'll start doing this later on
14:17 masak tadzik++
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14:33 mj41 joined #perl6
14:39 moritz tadzik: I've already added three tasks to melange
14:40 moritz tadzik: two "tests for RT tickets", one design for faq.perl6.org
14:40 tadzik moritz: great!
14:43 cognominal soon, perl will not be caught on a hype cycle but in a whirlpool of hype. :)
14:44 masak cognominal: :D
14:45 masak cognominal: "we don't believe the old waterfall hype model is a viable way to conduct hype"
15:14 Woodi "It's the reliability of single-threaded message-based designs that I like. An avionics software designer told me they never use multi-threading just for that reason. A single thread is absolutely guaranteed to have zero race conditions and deadlocks. No multi-threaded software can provide that sort of guarantee." from http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?Messagin​gAsAlternativeToMultiThreading
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15:19 masak Woodi: in other news, software that doesn't connect to the net is more reliable. so is software that doesn't interact with the user in any way. :)
15:19 masak "A program that doesn't accept input is absolutely guaranteed to have zero injection attacks. No user-input-accepting software can provide that sort of guarantee." :P
15:19 Woodi I like qmail design, it is a "multi-server", multiproces server... kind of messaging architecture...
15:20 cognominal joined #perl6
15:20 masak people seem to generally say good things about qmail.
15:20 Woodi no, async api is used, select/poll etc
15:21 Woodi qmail is multiproces but I wonder about something in process
15:21 Woodi 0mq maybe
15:23 Woodi anyway, probably no one will want to implement Oracle clone in Perl :)
15:24 JimmyZ i'd more like postfix ...
15:24 Woodi point is where to stop elmiminating use cases... games for example probably needs multithreading
15:26 tadzik do they?
15:26 tadzik I didn't look deep into the doom3 source, but I saw some event loop in there ;)
15:26 tadzik but again, I didn't look really deep
15:27 masak RFC 1: "Perl 6 should be built around threads from the beginning."
15:27 Woodi games probably want to use few cores...
15:27 tadzik ok, there are threads too
15:27 gfldex doom3 engine can run the render process in it's own thread
15:27 tadzik my bad
15:27 gfldex it wont give you much tho
15:28 Woodi masak: depends what "from the beginning" means :)
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15:29 masak just point out that threading was part of the deal since RFC 1.
15:29 masak I'm not sure if any of the Apocalypses mentions RFC 1, though.
15:29 Woodi "start development without threads and add later"
15:30 Woodi probably Actor model - messaging - is a option now. in that case real threads can be hidden
15:32 masak we *have* started development without threads and plan to add them later.
15:32 masak even Parrot, in a de facto sort of way.
15:33 masak I get the feeling that RFC 1 is largely motivated by the observation that threads are *hard* to add in afterwards.
15:34 Woodi all the STM movement is based on that
15:34 masak well, STM was something that was looked at, in the Pugs era.
15:34 masak I believe Pugs implements some form of STM.
15:35 Woodi "implement" is wrong word :) cheating maybe :)
15:37 Woodi maybe we can start with efficient Perl6(process) <-> Perl6(proces) protocol ?
15:37 Woodi I mean especially in localhost environment
15:38 Woodi + green threads and CPU can be used 100% :)
15:38 __sri threads with stm would be very cool, something we can't have in perl5
15:38 masak Woodi: why are you so quick to evaluate software with whch you have no actual experience? I believe Pugs *actually* implements STM. no cheating involved.
15:39 Woodi masak: becouse Pugs overrided Haskell STM :)
15:39 __sri i think akka uses threads + stm
15:39 masak I don't remember the circumstances that made @Larry abandon STM as *the* approach and start considering it one of many solutions.
15:39 masak Woodi: what, and Haskell's STM isn't real?
15:40 Woodi but using ready thing is not the same as implementing from scrath in Rakudo case
15:42 Woodi waiting for Hardware TM is an option too :)
15:42 __sri cheap threads could easily become *the* feature to make perl5 folks switch once 10+ core cpus go mainstream
15:43 * __sri starts drooling at the thought of a perl6 akka
15:43 masak and yet... no-one is actively working on it.
15:43 masak it's just a lot of talk.
15:44 masak maybe that's positive to some extent. maybe it'll motivate someone to start digging into it in earnest.
15:44 masak one can only hope :)
15:45 * __sri thought stm was a hot topic for folks with academics background
15:45 __sri many papers to be written :)
15:46 moritz masak: I think the reason for not only considering STM was the paper that showed that STM can be combined elegantly with other concurrency concepts
15:46 masak oh, ok.
15:46 Woodi if we want multi-core threads in Perl6 then it need be first implemented by lower backend probably. in other case just spawn Perl6 interpreters and do messaging communication...
15:46 masak moritz: I remember watching a talk about how STM has scaling problems, just like most threading techniques.
15:49 * __sri loves akka
15:53 jnthn People always want silver bullets. I guess STM momentarily looked like being one. :)
15:53 jnthn (I'm not saying STM is a bad thing. Just that it's not magical either. :))
15:54 Woodi there is STM 2, or TM II, scales better
15:55 masak then *that* must be the solution! :P
15:57 Woodi situation is that many parallel things is implemented in other languages and we cannot agree even on draft content :)
15:58 masak yes, but *we know that*.
15:58 masak a draft won't magically appear just by some people discussing threading and saying what they like and don't like.
15:59 masak a draft is written by someone, a concrete individual who, you know, steps up and JFDIs a draft.
15:59 * Woodi eats chocollate
16:00 Woodi and TimToady lives in heavy-patent country :)
16:20 dalek roast: 696bc8d | moritz++ | S03-operators/repeat.t:
16:20 dalek roast: two rakudo unfudges
16:20 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/696bc8d71c
16:21 * __sri patents TimToady
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16:44 awwaiid Woodi, 'nine' was working on some multi-processing in #parrot iirc. or at least "green" threads
16:51 thou joined #perl6
16:51 dalek nqp/nci: 4aade5a | jnthn++ | src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops:
16:51 dalek nqp/nci: Handle string returns.
16:51 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4aade5aa11
16:58 dalek zavolaj/v2: d22dd75 | jnthn++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
16:59 dalek zavolaj/v2: Better string support, including multiple encodings.
16:59 dalek zavolaj/v2: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/d22dd75a7f
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17:44 flussence I missed that whole conversation 4½ hours ago. I'd prefer a Str.encoding property (one that also works as a default for .Buf)...
17:56 jnthn flussence: It's not really a property of the thing being passed, though. It's about how the native calling stuff should marshall it.
17:58 flussence hm, I get it now
17:58 flussence a .encoding is setting it in the wrong place...
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18:32 moritz is Buf supported?
18:33 jnthn moritz: Not yet
18:33 moritz you can extract its $!buffer and call .get_string('binary') on it to get a parrot str out of it
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18:48 dalek nqp/nci: ba2dda5 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
18:48 dalek nqp/nci: Handle struct returns. Needs some more work on memory management stuff, but basically works now. Needed a little refactor to the CStruct REPR, thanks to braino when doing it before.
18:48 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ba2dda5ab3
18:49 mj41 joined #perl6
18:51 jnthn https://gist.github.com/1392493 # updated with latest examples
19:09 moritz jnthn++
19:09 moritz jnthn: when will you branch nci into nqp/master?
19:09 moritz s/branch/merge/
19:13 jnthn moritz: I'm fine with developing it in master; the only reason it's in a branch is to not cause disruption while build issues are sorted out.
19:13 jnthn moritz: Like, the broken parallel build.
19:20 moritz jnthn: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/build.log is a complete build log of 'make -j3'
19:21 moritz the interesting part is that it can't find dyncall/dyn{call,load}.h
19:21 moritz in NativeCall.h
19:21 sorear good * #perl6
19:22 moritz line 155
19:22 moritz hello sorear
19:23 moritz erm, currently even the serial build is broken?
19:25 moritz hm, works again now
19:25 jnthn moritz: the line starting cd src/ops && cc -c -o nqp_dyncall_ops.o
19:25 jnthn looks to be missing a -I
19:25 jnthn or did i miss it
19:25 jnthn moritz: oh!
19:25 jnthn -I../../3rdparty/dyncall-0.6
19:26 jnthn ...should not have the -0.6...thought I fixed all of those
19:26 jnthn moritz: Did you re-configure?
19:26 jnthn o/ sorear
19:26 sorear TimToady: ping.  I want to hear the real story about STM in Perl 6.
19:26 moritz jnthn: I might not have, let me re-check
19:27 moritz jnthn: (unrelated) ConfigVars gets changed during Configure.pl run. Should I 'git rm' it?
19:27 sorear o/ jnthn
19:30 * moritz does so. Forgiveness > Permission after all
19:30 dalek nqp/nci: 1a92ea7 | moritz++ | 3rdparty/dyncall/ConfigVars:
19:30 dalek nqp/nci: [dyncall] ConfigVars is a generated file, and should not be part of the repositry
19:30 dalek nqp/nci: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1a92ea7226
19:33 hundskatt joined #perl6
19:34 moritz jnthn: now even the parallel build worked here
19:34 packetknife joined #perl6
19:35 jnthn moritz: \o/
19:35 jnthn moritz: +1 to remove that file...just an accident
19:49 masak nom: class Permission { method Numeric { self.^name.chars } }; class Forgiveness is Permission {}; say Forgiveness > Permission
19:49 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤Bool::False␤»
19:50 masak dang :)
19:50 moritz try with method Real instead
19:50 masak oki
19:50 masak nom: class Permission { method Real { self.^name.chars } }; class Forgiveness is Permission {}; say Forgiveness > Permission
19:50 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
19:50 masak \o/
19:51 moritz there's no reason for > to coerce to Numeric if it can't deal with any Numeric result
19:51 masak makes sense, I guess.
19:51 moritz (that's a rather recent change)
19:51 moritz thought I did think that the default .Real would re-dispatch to .Numeric.Real
19:54 sorear o/ masak
19:57 masak sorear! hi!
20:05 snearch joined #perl6
20:16 sorear hello!
20:17 orafu joined #perl6
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20:20 masak niecza: class Permission { method Real { self.^name.chars } }; class Forgiveness is Permission {}; say Forgiveness > Permission
20:20 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:20 masak hah!
20:20 masak in Niecza, Forgiveness !> Permission :)
20:20 packetknife joined #perl6
20:22 sorear .^name NYI
20:22 sorear I'm a little supprised it didn't throw
20:22 sorear niecza: say 1.^name
20:22 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method name in class ClassHOW␤  at /tmp/CXKOkTbm7A line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2224 (ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2225 (module-CORE @ 58) ␤  at /h…
20:23 sorear oh! > is calling .Numeric, not .Real
20:23 sorear which isn't overridden, so you're getting to Any.Numeric
20:23 sorear which returns 0 if !defined(self)
20:27 moritz niecza: say (2+2i) > (2+3i)
20:27 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:28 moritz niecza: say (2+2i) > (3+3i)
20:28 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:28 moritz niecza: say (2+2i) >= (2+2i)
20:28 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:29 moritz niecza: say (3+2i) > (2+2i)
20:29 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:29 moritz niecza: say (2-2i) > (2+2i)
20:29 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:29 moritz niecza: say (2-2i) < (2+2i)
20:29 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:32 masak eew
20:33 diakopter :)
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20:43 masak niecza: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({}); say $h.WHAT
20:43 p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method wrap in class Sub␤  at /tmp/DN_riAJS37 line 1 (mainline @ 6) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2224 (ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2225 (module-CORE @ 58) ␤  at /home/p…
20:43 masak nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({}); say $h.WHAT
20:43 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '&wrapper'; expected Callable but got Hash instead␤  in method wrap at src/gen/CORE.setting:1334␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/FNlHorYcWL:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/FNlHorYcWL:1␤»
20:44 masak oh! :)
20:44 masak nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({;}); say $h.WHAT
20:44 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«WrapHandle()␤»
20:44 masak nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({;}); say $h.^methods
20:44 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«restore eager elems end classify uniq infinite flat hash list pick roll reverse sort values keys kv pairs Array grep first join map min max minmax postcircumfix:<[ ]> at_pos all any one none postcircumfix:<{ }> reduce ACCEPTS ACCEPTS WHERE WHICH WHY Bool so not define…
20:44 masak ETOOMANY
20:44 masak nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({;}); say $h.^methods(:local)
20:44 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«restore␤»
20:46 jnthn masak: broken it yet? :)
20:47 diakopter nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({;}); my $i = $h.wrap({;}); say $i.WHAT
20:47 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«Method 'wrap' not found for invocant of class 'WrapHandle'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/XfeAENZSbe:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/XfeAENZSbe:1␤»
20:47 jnthn diakopter: Pretty sure the spec doesn't say you can do anything with the wrap handle other than call .restore :)
20:48 moritz you can only wrap the routine itself again
20:48 masak nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({;}); $h.restore; $h.restore
20:48 p6eval nom 2154eb:  ( no output )
20:49 masak nom: sub foo { say "unwrapped" }; my $h = &foo.wrap({ say "OH HAI" }); foo; $h.restore; foo; $h.restore; foo
20:49 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤unwrapped␤unwrapped␤»
20:49 masak I guess that could be seen as the right behavior...
20:50 jnthn masak: Oh...hm
20:50 masak :)
20:50 jnthn nom: sub foo {}; my $h = &foo.wrap({;}); say ?$h.restore; say ?$h.restore
20:50 p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤Bool::False␤»
20:51 packetkn_ joined #perl6
20:54 masak oh, ok :)
20:55 masak take the challenge! http://twitter.com/OvidPerl​/status/140864258358521856
20:55 sorear b: say (2+2i > 2-2i)
20:55 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:57 sorear masak: $\mathbf{C}$ does not have an ordering which is compatible with the field structure, but it's still a useful order for binary searches and stuff
20:57 sorear masak: perhaps it would be better to put this under 'cmp'.  However, 'cmp' is still inadequately specced.
20:57 masak sorear: the first thing you said is interesting -- I've never heard anyone advocate that before.
20:58 masak sorear: my gut reaction is that it's not a good idea, though.
20:58 geekosaur the haskell community has tossed the idea around before
20:58 masak sorear: if something isn't compatible with field structure, it shouldn't play with the Numeric comparison ops.
20:58 masak sorear: that's why moritz made < cast to Real, I guess.
20:59 geekosaur (comparison is overloaded; you don't want to have it for field operations, but you sometimes want to use it as a key in a Map..)
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21:05 masak geekosaur: well, that's infix:<cmp> in Perl 6, not infix:<< <=> >>.
21:05 masak geekosaur: and generally Perl tends towards purity of operators. infix:<+> is only for numeric addition, for example. not for adding strings or arrays or other things.
21:06 geekosaur right, that's what sorear was saying (so your "the first thing you saidis interesting" is perhaps a little confusing)
21:06 sorear Perl 6 has 4 sets of comparison operator - < = > <=> for .Real functionality using the induced order from the ordered field structure on R
21:07 masak ==
21:07 sorear le eq gt leq for string comparison, using what the Unicode Consortium calls "binary order" (we haven't specced locale collation yet)
21:07 masak could be done with adverbs, I guess. or pragmata.
21:08 sorear before eqv after cmp for object-value polymorphic comparison, which is still too slushy to implement
21:08 sorear === (for some reason there are no order operators) for object-identity comparison
21:09 masak if ObjAt numifies you could use the numeric comparison ops.
21:09 masak but I'm not sure it does.
21:10 arnsholt Regarding ===, would it even make sense to have order operators for that?
21:10 geekosaur it's not clear to me what non-equality object identity comparison would mean in the general case
21:10 geekosaur ...that
21:13 geekosaur (for things like the Map case, you probably want something like a hash of the representation value, but I'm not clear that that deserves an operator or any significant huffmanization)
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21:34 djanatyn are the new perl 6 tasks on GCI going live at midnight?
21:35 ksi joined #perl6
21:35 masak djanatyn! \o/
21:36 djanatyn Yes, sorry. I haven't been here lately >_>
21:36 djanatyn I've been being lazy, playing a new Zelda game that just came out, and learning some more Haskell in anticipation of a competition coming up soon.
21:38 masak sounds awesome.
21:39 masak I wish I had time to play Zelda games and learn some Haskell :)
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21:42 djanatyn Yeah, being in highschool has it's perks. :D
21:42 flussence I went out today to buy a game, somehow came home with toothpaste instead. Oh well, less distractions for me...
21:43 djanatyn I've been writing lots of Java too. Bleh.
21:43 djanatyn Not as fun as writing perl6, but still fun in it's own way.
21:44 djanatyn and right now, I'm installing plan9 from bell labs!
21:52 masak djanatyn: I'm currently writing slides for a talk about Java!
21:52 djanatyn Oh, cool.
21:52 masak djanatyn: I haven't known this much about the language since I used it, way back in 2010 :P
21:52 djanatyn ...Java 8?
21:53 masak no, mostly 5 and forwards.
21:53 djanatyn I've been reading a lot about Java 8 on reddit, and the new additions seem pretty cool
21:53 masak I know almost nothing about Java 8. does it have closures?
21:55 djanatyn It has lambdas, I know that
21:55 djanatyn And I know they've talked a lot about closures, and I think they were added
21:57 masak those are basically the same.
21:57 masak anyway, woo \o/
21:57 masak finally! in 2012!
21:57 thou joined #perl6
21:58 sorear Java has had closures since 1.1
21:58 sorear lambdas are extremely welcome though.  took long enough
21:59 sorear it would also be nice if they could make this stuff lighter-weight at runtime, instead of requiring a runtime Class for every reified function
21:59 arnsholt sorear: IIRC there are some limitations to Java's closures though. Like only being able to close over final variables
22:00 masak right.
22:00 masak which pulls most of the fun out of them, to be honest.
22:01 masak but yeah, I guess those are closures.
22:01 masak you can put stuff in 1-element arrays and access it anyway :P
22:02 arnsholt I can't remember when I last tried to do something closurey in Java, but I do remember my fun being spoiled by that
22:02 sorear arnsholt: Haskell can only close over final variables too :P
22:03 arnsholt Haskell mostly has only final variables =p
22:04 djanatyn Our school is using Java 6, which is pretty lame
22:05 djanatyn So I would probably get points deducted if I used java 8 features, as we submit just the source code to our teachers, and she uses her Java 6 JDK to compile
22:05 masak djanatyn: at least it isn't Java 1.2
22:05 sorear mine too.  "We're using the most recently released version, Java 1.6.2" # their words exactly.
22:05 djanatyn o_o
22:06 sorear WHAT PART OF BUG FIX RELEASES DO YOU NOT GET
22:06 djanatyn ouch
22:06 masak wow.
22:07 djanatyn sorear: Do you write Java at your job?
22:07 sorear djanatyn: no, mine [school]
22:07 masak djanatyn: you just assume everyone is employed :)
22:08 djanatyn Oh. :)
22:08 djanatyn Sorry ^_^;
22:12 djanatyn flussence: by the way, what game did you go out to get?
22:15 masak more importantly, what toothpaste did you end up with? :P
22:17 flussence I heard people actually like the new Sonic game, but turns out it's not out on any platform I own :( toothpaste was generic store-brand stuff, but it's green!
22:21 masak green means healthy!
22:22 masak and natural.
22:23 jnthn What does aquafresh mean? :)
22:24 djanatyn flussence: uhh, it's out for PC
22:26 flussence I don't feel like installing wine that badly :)
22:29 masak jnthn: Russia!
22:30 jnthn :D
22:30 masak or France, or any number of countries, I guess.
22:31 jnthn Yeah, but Russia is big and awesome and has the Moscow Metro. :)
22:32 masak \o/
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22:49 dalek nqp/unirx: 1216a2a | diakopter++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
22:49 dalek nqp/unirx: import is_uprop parrot op from rakudo ng
22:49 dalek nqp/unirx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1216a2a144
22:49 diakopter um
22:50 araujo joined #perl6
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22:51 dalek nqp/unirx: 109e4aa | diakopter++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
22:51 dalek nqp/unirx: add uchar.h include
22:51 dalek nqp/unirx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/109e4aa767
22:51 Trashlord joined #perl6
22:53 masak good night, #perl6
22:55 packetknife joined #perl6
22:59 * diakopter gawks at S05  "Terms may also be combined using & for set intersection, | for set union, and ^ for symmetric set difference. Parens may be used for grouping."
23:03 orafu joined #perl6
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23:16 jnthn night, #perl6
23:20 orafu joined #perl6
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23:48 dalek nqp/unirx: d4a0667 | diakopter++ | src/Q (3 files):
23:48 dalek nqp/unirx: Unicode properties in regexes (new S05 syntax)
23:48 dalek nqp/unirx: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d4a0667060
23:49 [Coke] Tomorrow is the deadline for getting perl6 tasks into GCI. Hurry Hurry. ;)
23:51 diakopter [Coke]: want a task to do?
23:51 diakopter not GCI, I mean
23:52 [Coke] diakopter: I am not a student, if that's where you're heading.
23:52 diakopter no
23:52 [Coke] No, I'm not looking for perl6 work at the moment. Thanks, though.
23:52 diakopter maybe you can help me answer this question though
23:53 diakopter roast/S05-mass/properties-block.t
23:54 diakopter nm, answered it myself I think
23:57 sorear diakopter: how many unicode props are you adding?

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