Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-11-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:43 jnthn 'night, #perl6
00:44 japhb phenny, ask sorear You mentioned wanting to do a Niecza/C.  Does that mean "implemented in C, targeting some VM or JIT" or "implemented in C, targeting C as an intermediate language", or some other variation entirely?
00:44 phenny japhb: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
00:44 japhb 'night, jnthn
00:46 colomon japhb: sorear was talking about what GC to use, so I'm pretty sure he means targeting C as an intermediate language.
00:47 diakopter no, I'm pretty sure he means writing his own VM/interpreter/JIT in C.
00:48 colomon sure, could be that too.
00:48 japhb colomon, in that case I wonder if C-- might be a better intermediate language choice.  He does know GHC after all, so he at least has seen the cmm bits there.  :-)
00:49 japhb diakopter, *chuckle* And now I'm back to knowing nothing of his plans again, with two of you offering opposite interpretations.  ;-)
00:51 diakopter I'm nearly certain he doesn't want to rely on a C compiler at runtime
00:58 colomon diakopter: going back to the perl 5 model, eh?  that certainly fits with what he said, and seems to make sense.
00:58 diakopter or parrot model
01:03 colomon I'm just guessing, mind you, but I'd be really surprised if he were thinking the parrot model (ie, a new universal VM loosely coupled to niecza) rather than the p5 model (custom VM designed to do exactly what niecza needs).
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01:06 japhb colomon, perhaps diakopter meant the parrot model in the sense of lower-level, byte-code and/or jit-based rather than just interpreting the optree as perl5 does.
01:07 colomon ah, sure, that could make sense, too.  :)
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02:30 dalek rakudo/nom: 652952a | colomon++ | README:
02:30 dalek rakudo/nom: Add --gen-nqp to the Configure instructions.
02:30 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/652952ac81
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03:24 colomon Where does the updated Pugs repo live now that the revival effort is underway?
03:27 colomon So, here's my first stab at the Advent Day 1 post.  Comments and suggestions would be very welcome.  http://perl6advent.wordpress​.com/?p=735&preview=true
03:27 colomon (You may need Advent editing permission to see that preview...)
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04:08 sorear good * #perl6
04:08 phenny sorear: 00:44Z <japhb> ask sorear You mentioned wanting to do a Niecza/C.  Does that mean "implemented in C, targeting some VM or JIT" or "implemented in C, targeting C as an intermediate language", or some other variation entirely?
04:12 sorear japhb: I am _not_ planning to generate C
04:13 sorear I'm going for more of a threaded code interpreter like what Perl 5 does but with better dcache behavior
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05:52 dalek niecza: 0b17f48 | sorear++ | docs/release.txt:
05:52 dalek niecza: Add notes on how to cut a Niecza release
05:52 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/0b17f4869b
05:52 dalek niecza: eb42dfa | sorear++ | FETCH_URL:
05:52 dalek niecza: Update FETCH_URL
05:52 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/eb42dfaded
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07:07 moritz good morning
07:07 sorear good morning moritz
07:07 moritz tomorrow is the first of December
07:07 moritz if we want a Perl 6 advent calendar, soembody needs to write a first post
07:08 moritz and people need to commit to dates and topics
07:21 Woodi I would like to read few "perlish" topics like about debugging/profiling tools (in Parrot too) or Grammar::Trace (me seen video)
07:25 moritz Woodi: then do. Add your name and topic(s) to misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule in the perl6/mu repository
07:25 moritz erm
07:25 moritz sorry, I thought you wanted to write about them
07:25 masak morning, #perl6
07:25 moritz we have no lack of topics, we have a lack of people committed to dates and topics
07:25 moritz good morning masak
07:27 masak if we don't have enough people committed to dates and topics by the end of the day, maybe it's better to not run an advent calendar this year?
07:28 masak finding people to write the next day's post tends to be the tricky part (if not the most time-consuming, which is probably writing the post)
07:28 moritz well, quite a few people seemed to be willing to do something
07:28 moritz it would be a shame not to do
07:28 moritz but I get your point
07:29 moritz I wonder what's better, an advent calendar with only entries for half the days, or none at all
07:32 moritz anyway, my current real-life situation does not allow me to spend as much time on it as last year (where I wrote several last-minute posts to fill gaps)
07:33 masak same here.
07:34 masak I'm going on a vacation with at best reduced internet access for two weeks, starting Friday.
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07:39 pmurias sorear: why write an interpreter instead of generating C/llvm ir?
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07:40 sorear pmurias: llvm is SLOW
07:40 sorear pmurias: and gcc is slower
07:40 sorear using llvm would erase all the wins from abandoning Mono
07:40 sorear o/ masak
07:41 pmurias sorear: what would the wins of abandoning Mono be?
07:41 sorear faster startup, much more portability, less memory use
07:43 sorear moritz: I'm not sure I get it.  Didn't we cover all the topics last year?
07:43 sorear What's left?
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07:46 pmurias sorear: you could try targeting the V8 IR
07:47 masak sorear: I'm sure the set of Perl 6 topics has a cardinality bigger than 50 :)
07:48 pmurias sorear: re gcc is slow, yes it used to be a problem with mildew
07:52 moritz sorear: there are infinitely many topics. See topic-brainstorming in perl6/mu/misc/perl6advent-2011
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07:55 jnthn moritz: Gotta commute/do onsite $dayjob in a few minutes...I can commit to 2 or maybe 3 posts, including one on Grammar::Debugger and one on meta-programming.
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08:05 * sorear wonders what the old pumpking dropped in for
08:05 sorear moritz: ah, cool
08:07 * sorear can't do "a look at Niecza" without first getting a better idea of what Niecza is and why it still exists
08:07 sorear incidentally, the unicode folks made the clarification I wanted to tn18 before I had a chance to ask for it
08:08 masak "the old pumpking" sounds like something out of a children's story :)
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08:09 sorear masak: until last week or so, obra was the p5 pumpking (now it's rjbs)
08:14 masak nod
08:14 masak oh, the switch wasn't until last week? I'd have thought it happened a month ago or so.
08:15 sorear maybe, my sense of time ain't great
08:16 * sorear sleep
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08:31 moritz phenny: ask sorear if he'd like to write something for p6advent about his Unicode work for niecza
08:31 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
08:33 moritz jnthn: that's great. Could you please chose slots for that in https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/ma​ster/misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule ?
08:35 * moritz just discovered http://perldoc.perl.org/pstruct.html
08:39 moritz jnthn: btw I ran test-summary.pl yesterday, 17690 passes
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08:39 jnthn moritz: najs!
08:39 jnthn er. nice!
08:42 moritz I've got 6 failures in t/spec/S05-mass/properties-general.t after [Coke]++ unfudged a bit. I guess they depend on the ICU version
08:42 moritz oh, and whiteknight++ pondered bundling icu with parrot again yesterday
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08:51 jnthn moritz: ooh, progress :)
08:52 jnthn moritz: I can't get at the mu repo from this $dayjob place...will add myself this evening.
08:54 moritz jnthn: ok. Or tell me the dates, and I'll enter you
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08:55 moritz erm, it
08:55 moritz whatever
08:55 jnthn lol
08:56 jnthn moritz: not 7th-9th and not 15th or 16th. Other than that, any days are fine.
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08:59 dalek mu: 7c49eae | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule:
08:59 dalek mu: sign up jnthn++ for day 2 and 14
08:59 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/7c49eaeca8
08:59 masak jnthn++
09:00 masak I might have time to prepare-write something tomorrow, if I have time left over after blogging.
09:00 masak but I don't want to sign up until I have something prepared.
09:00 masak I could sign up already for any date after the 18th.
09:00 moritz masak: please do
09:01 masak haven't thought about what to write about yet, but if signing up my name alone is OK, I'll do that.
09:01 moritz it is
09:01 * masak does so, then
09:03 dalek mu: c8126c4 | (Carl Mäsak)++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule:
09:03 dalek mu: Signed up masak for 19th and 22nd
09:03 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/c8126c4151
09:03 moritz masak++
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09:08 snarkyboojum abandoning Mono might forgo all the library goodness that Colomon was praising the other day too tho :(
09:09 * moritz kinda thinks there are many good C libraries too
09:09 snarkyboojum no doubt, though using C libraries is arguably more involved that a "platform" like Mono
09:11 snarkyboojum I played around porting http://dev.aboutus.org/2011/07/03/get​ting-started-exploratory-parsing.html to Perl 6 which runs better on nom now - might make an interesting Advent post
09:12 snarkyboojum though there might already be grammar'y type posts in there
09:14 snarkyboojum Perl 6 naturally fits that kind of "exploratory parsing" niche, without having to install software like peg/leg (which is very good btw)
09:18 snarkyboojum or not!
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09:19 snarkyboojum i.e. one of the simple examples is using more than 3GB of memory atm :(
09:19 snarkyboojum but at least it hasn't coredumped yet :)
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09:32 pmurias snarkyboojum: re abandoning Mono, is the plan to abandon it or merely add an additional backend?
09:32 masak does anyone know of any programming language besides Java and Perl 6 where enums are reference types?
09:33 snarkyboojum pmurias: no idea - just reading sorears earlier comments
09:34 masak snarkyboojum: I think you should definitely go for an "exploratory parsing" post. for one, because I'd like to read it :) but also because I know what you mean and I agree that it's one of the strengths of Perl 6 in general and of Niecza/Rakudo in particular.
09:35 moritz snarkyboojum: I'd very much welcome such a post
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09:36 pmurias masak: enums are mutable in java?
09:36 moritz snarkyboojum: grammars are a very central p6 feature (IMHO), and we can't show it off too much :-)
09:36 snarkyboojum it seems it's the .perl on the match object in my little script that is the culprit for making the thing effectively hang :(
09:36 snarkyboojum moritz masak: cool :)
09:37 moritz snarkyboojum: on rakudo, try .gist for inspecting
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09:37 snarkyboojum moritz: good idea - will give that a go
09:37 moritz snarkyboojum: but please submit a bug report too, I'd like to fix .perl eventually
09:37 masak pmurias: essentially yes, but it's considered poor taste to give enum values mutable state.
09:38 masak pmurias: or, as it was aptly put on stackoverflow "yes, but that would be *evil*"
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09:38 moritz (nearly) everything is mutable, if you go to a sufficiently low level :-)
09:38 snarkyboojum I am trying to dump 16814 "facts" which have been parsed out of a text file (via .perl or .gist - both of which are v. slow)
09:39 moritz erm, yes. I can imagine that
09:39 snarkyboojum if just just count them, all is good, so it's string performance again I suppose
09:41 moritz or maybe iteration preformance
09:41 snarkyboojum ah
09:41 moritz note that .perl is optimized for correctness, not for speed or readability
09:42 moritz snarkyboojum: maybe I add you to the p6advent schedule? if yes, which day?
09:43 snarkyboojum moritz: ok - stick me in there in the middle somewhere :)
09:44 moritz snarkyboojum: 12th then? :-)
09:44 snarkyboojum major project at work goes "live" on Dec 14, so around there ;)
09:44 moritz it's as middle as it gets :-)
09:44 moritz around there, or later?
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09:45 snarkyboojum 12 would be probably be a great excuse for procrastination
09:45 moritz ok, 12 it is then
09:45 snarkyboojum "lock it in eddy"
09:46 dalek mu: 7b043af | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule:
09:46 dalek mu: [p6advent] snarkyboojum++ volunteers for day 12
09:46 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/7b043af287
09:50 dalek mu: 0005bed | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/ (2 files):
09:50 dalek mu: [p6advent] sign me up for day 3, Buf and binary IO
09:50 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/0005beddca
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10:07 moritz nom: say '' ~ Buf.new
10:07 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«Buf<656769015169214330>␤»
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10:19 masak ooh, I know! I'll write about operator precedence! I don't think anyone's done that before.
10:19 masak and it's a topic I like ^_^
10:22 moritz nom: https://gist.github.com/1408580
10:22 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«møþ␤møþ␤»
10:22 moritz it seems that $*OUT.write(Buf) is broken :(
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10:24 jnthn Just $*OUT?
10:24 moritz hm, no idea
10:24 * moritz checks
10:26 moritz nope, other :w file handles too
10:26 moritz hm
10:26 moritz oh
10:26 moritz I need to open it as :bin
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10:28 moritz nom: nqp::say(nqp::typeof__SP(pir::getstdout__P()))
10:28 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized nqp:: opcode 'nqp::typeof__SP' at line 1, near ")"␤»
10:28 moritz nom: nqp::say(pir::typeof__SP(pir::getstdout__P()))
10:28 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«FileHandle␤»
10:29 moritz nom: nqp::say(pir::getstdout__P().encoding)
10:29 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«utf8␤»
10:34 moritz should .write automatically temporarily switch to binary IO? or die?
10:34 moritz doing something non-sensical semems wrong to me :-)
10:34 * moritz goes with DWIM for now
10:38 masak die would be the conservative option, but switching to binary has a certain allure, too, I guess.
10:39 moritz nom: $*OUT.write($*IN.read(200))
10:39 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,␤Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich!␤Heimat bist du großer Söhne,␤Volk, begnadet für das Schöne,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich,␤vielgerühm»
10:40 moritz ah, same problem
10:41 masak .write should always work on Buf, no?
10:42 moritz and .read returns one, yes
10:43 masak oh, but the problem is $*OUT being set to binary or not? I see.
10:43 moritz curiously I think that $*IN doesn't need to be set to binary already
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10:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 80f6ce0 | moritz++ | src/core/IO.pm:
10:50 dalek rakudo/nom: make IO.write DWIM if the handle is not binary yet
10:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/80f6ce0c93
10:53 moritz erm
10:54 moritz does anybody else find the section on Blob literals confusing?
10:54 moritz :16{A705E}              a blob4, 4 bits per column
10:54 colomon masak: what can you tell me about the pugs revival effort (for the Day 1 post)?
10:55 moritz so, to build a blob8, you need to write :256{...}? And what do you put in there?
10:56 moritz colomon: ingy fixed some build issues, apart from that nothing has happened, only planning
10:56 moritz (re pugs)
10:56 colomon where's the repo for it?  is it still audreyt's, or is there a fork somewhere?
10:57 moritz https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs
10:57 moritz std: :2{0010}
10:58 p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Malformed radix number at /tmp/vOx4dPvMHA line 1:â�¤------> [32m:2[33mâ��[31m{0010}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement endâ�¤  statement listâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:01 118mâ�¤Â»
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11:04 colomon moritz++
11:04 masak colomon: an accurate picture of the pugs revival effort, I think, is that there's plans for it but it hasn't begun yet.
11:05 moritz I'd rather have all Blob literals generate a Buf8, and have the leading number denote the basis for it, not the column width
11:05 masak some people have gotten Pugs from a repo on their boxes. I haven't yet. haven't tried very hard, though.
11:06 moritz nom: https://gist.github.com/1408580
11:06 p6eval nom 652952: OUTPUT«møþ␤møþ␤»
11:06 moritz evalbot control rebuild
11:06 moritz evalbot rebuild nom
11:06 p6eval OK (started asynchronously)
11:10 colomon Do the plans for pugs include trying to bring it closer to the current spec?
11:13 masak absolutely.
11:14 masak though probably more on the LHF level of things until we understand the Pugs architecture better :)
11:15 masak getting Pugs to run the roast tests would be a short-term goal as well.
11:18 moritz any thoughts on the Blob literal issue I raised above?
11:19 masak moritz: I thought Blob was to be an immutable Buf...
11:19 moritz yes
11:19 moritz (I might not have made the distinction above, because rakudo only implements Buf)
11:20 moritz but the issue is the same nonethelss
11:21 moritz by current spec, to create a Blob8 / Buf8, you'd need to write :256{...}, and I don't know wha the '...' is supposed to be
11:21 moritz everything else in Perl 6 that supports radix notation only goes up to 36, because we only have 10 digits and 26 ASCIIbetical characters
11:25 moritz question to the Socket users: should .recv return a Buf?
11:28 colomon moritz: just off the top of my head (no idea what the spec says), I'd think the ... should be in hex.
11:29 colomon anyone know if there's an easy way to get an HTML file from a github repo to actually display like a web page (instead of HTML source)?
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11:38 markand hi
11:38 daxim masak, http://paste.scsys.co.uk/163516
11:38 daxim roasting is easy
11:42 markand is it still possible to use perl5 from cpan with perl6 ?
11:43 tadzik I think it's possible in niecza
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11:52 masak daxim: nice!
11:52 daxim pugs: use perl5::Math::Trig; tan(50).say;
11:52 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«pugs: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/Um8xTt7FyL line 1, column 1␤»
11:52 daxim markand, this does work offline.
11:53 markand okay :)
11:53 markand thanks
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12:56 dalek rakudo/nom: ff7fd2d | moritz++ | src/core/IO/Socket.pm:
12:56 dalek rakudo/nom: .write method for sockets
12:56 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ff7fd2d776
12:56 moritz I've only tested that method very lightly; more testing appreciated
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13:44 moritz nom: class A { has str $.x; method BUILD(:$!x) { } }; say A.new(:x<foo>).x
13:44 p6eval nom ff7fd2: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in method BUILD at /tmp/rmcjzlnZkz:1␤  in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:568␤  in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:558␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:543␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/rmcjzlnZkz:1␤  in <anon> at /tm…
13:46 * moritz submits rakudobug
13:48 jnthn Hm :)
13:51 moritz nom: class A { has str $.x; method BUILD(str :$!x) { } }; say A.new(:x<foo>)
13:51 p6eval nom ff7fd2: OUTPUT«Binding to natively typed attributive parameter '$!x' not supported␤  in method BUILD at /tmp/zHH0gweEES:1␤  in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:568␤  in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:558␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:543␤  in block <anon> at /…
13:53 jnthn At least it knows it can't do that one yet :)
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14:16 muixirt hi folks
14:16 colomon \o
14:17 muixirt does NativeCall/Zavolaj work?
14:18 moritz muixirt: there's a branch called v2 in Zavolaj that should work on very latest nom
14:19 moritz muixirt: test very much appreciated
14:23 * jnthn should merge that branch this evening.
14:24 * moritz deleted the rakudo nci branch today, hoping to have remembered correctly that it was already merged
14:25 jnthn moritz: merged last night.
14:25 jnthn thanks for cleaning up after my branch mess :)
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14:35 moritz how much has Zavolaj's API changed?
14:36 jnthn moritz: little
14:37 jnthn You still write "is native('library')"
14:37 moritz cool
14:37 jnthn and OpaquePointer
14:37 jnthn and so forth
14:37 moritz just the struct things is new, no?
14:37 jnthn You can use things like int8 and int16 in the parameter types
14:37 jnthn You can also specify how to marshall the Str type now
14:37 jnthn And it handles null much better
14:37 jnthn (pass a type object to pass a null)
14:38 jnthn at least, for string, struct and pointer types
14:38 jnthn yes, struct stuff is at an early stage, but works for basic cases.
14:38 muixirt jnthn: wrt zavolaj: a make install should suffice, right? get a LTA error message
14:39 jnthn muixirt: I've not tried that at all in the v2 branch; I know make test didn't work out yet
14:39 jnthn muixirt: What do you get, ooc?
14:41 muixirt http://nopaste.snit.ch/97385
14:42 moritz muixirt: how old/young is your rakudo build?
14:42 muixirt from today
14:42 moritz hm
14:42 moritz and did you remember to install it?
14:43 moritz the error message usually means that an op is not available that should be
14:43 moritz which lets me guess that the native call ops aren't available
14:44 muixirt the nci was merged in? :-)
14:44 jnthn yes, looks like missing nqp_dyncall_ops or so
14:45 jnthn muixirt: nqp provides some native calling support. The NativeCall.pm module just puts a shiny Perl 6 wrapper around it all.
14:47 JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:47 JimmyZ good evening, #perl6
14:47 PerlJam good morning JimmyZ  :)
14:48 JimmyZ PerlJam:  hehe :)
14:48 * JimmyZ wonders how about callback
14:49 jnthn JimmyZ: I didn't get those in yet.
14:49 jnthn JimmyZ: dyncall library does provide support for that. So I hope to get to it soon.
14:49 JimmyZ jnthn:  thanks ;)
14:51 benabik jnthn: Just curious: Why did you use dyncall instead of ffi in Parrot?  Just being contrary or does libFFI have some variety of issue?
14:51 moritz windows build troubles
14:52 benabik dyncall looks interesting, I'll admit.  :-)
14:52 jnthn benabik: Build issues with libFFI, plus it doesn't seem very actively developed. Plus I didn't want people to have to dependency hunt. But what really did it was that I wanted to get some decent 6model integration.
14:53 jnthn Now you can define a C structure in Perl 6 just by writing class and marking it "is repr('CStruct')".
14:53 benabik jnthn: Cool, cool.  Looks slick.
14:54 muixirt jnthn: sorry the error message  was probably caused by some stale files
14:56 jasonmay joined #perl6
15:08 muixirt jnthn: why is the .so extension needed? ( is native('libfoobar.so') )
15:12 jnthn muixirt: I think whatever you specify at the moment gets passed straight down to the OS loader. Probably should get the .so added for you.
15:12 kaleem joined #perl6
15:17 muixirt jnthn and moritz, thanks for the help and the work on nci, bigint, optimizations and all the other things!
15:23 molaf joined #perl6
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16:01 _ilbot joined #perl6
16:01 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
16:23 jnthn decommute &
16:25 [Coke] jnthn: hio.
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16:43 [Coke] moritz? (or anyone here familiar with autounfudge?)
16:45 [Coke] I'm having trouble unfudging a file because the fudged variant is returning 1 instead of 0 for an exit code.
16:45 japhb phenny, tell moritz The spec supports :256[255,127,0,54] -- square braces, then comma separated decimal values
16:45 phenny japhb: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
16:46 [Coke] (all tests are skipped - if you run make .../../foo.t , exit value 0. if you run the fudged variant, exit value 1
16:46 japhb moritz, My Str.Numeric rewrite already supports this.
16:46 [Coke] the fudged version has an explicit exit 1 in it.... wtf?
16:46 japhb phenny, tell moritz My Str.Numeric rewrite already supports this.
16:46 phenny japhb: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
16:49 japhb I may have to just push that to a branch, so other people can look at it, even though it can't be merged because of the Failure handling issue ... hmmm, I'll do that next time I have access to that computer unless someone gives me a better option
16:55 kaleem joined #perl6
16:55 [Coke] wtf. made trivial whitespace change to t/spec/fudge. autounfudge begins to work. back out trivial change. still works.
16:56 [Coke] *head explode*
16:58 dalek rakudo/nom: f0ac58c | coke++ | tools/autounfudge.pl:
16:58 dalek rakudo/nom: add more on-demand debug output
16:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f0ac58cdda
16:58 colomon japhb: of course!  dunno how I forgot :256[255,127,0,54] , was just looking at it a few weeks ago.
16:59 PerlJam colomon: I know how you forgot it ... Perl 6 is a big language with lots of corners.  :)
16:59 PerlJam (fortunately most of the corners aren't sharp)
17:01 * jnthn home :)
17:01 colomon PerlJam: and my brain has enormous quantities of clutter in it...
17:22 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
17:22 jnthn hi, pmichaud
17:23 jnthn nice to see you around here again! :)
17:23 pmichaud good to be around again :)(
17:23 pmichaud :)
17:23 pmichaud still can't type, though.  :)
17:23 PerlJam pmichaud!
17:23 PerlJam pmichaud: How goes?
17:24 pmichaud things are okay here... still making many trips to doctors and the like though
17:24 kranius joined #perl6
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17:28 [Coke] pmichaud: o/
17:36 clkao joined #perl6
17:38 moritz \o pmichaud
17:38 colomon hey, #phasers?
17:38 phenny moritz: 16:45Z <japhb> tell moritz The spec supports :256[255,127,0,54] -- square braces, then comma separated decimal values
17:38 phenny moritz: 16:46Z <japhb> tell moritz My Str.Numeric rewrite already supports this.
17:39 jnthn er :)
17:39 flussence joined #perl6
17:39 moritz japhb: erm, if :256[...] returns a Blob or Buf, Str.Numeric shouldn't support it, just val(), right?
17:40 moritz PerlJam: can I motivate you to write something for the p6advent calendar?
17:40 PerlJam moritz: I'm planning on writing something, I jsut don't know what yet.
17:47 sayu joined #perl6
17:48 PerlJam colomon++ for getting the ball rolling on this year's advent calendar
17:49 colomon PerlJam: I was really amused when I looked at the backtrace this morning and saw moritz talking about the need to figure out who was going to do day 1, when I already had the first draft of it up on the blog.  :)
17:50 PerlJam colomon: Mentioning R* as a separate implementation of Perl 6 seems weird. Also, isn't there a R* release planned for Dec?  Talking about the previous R* on  the eve of the new R* is also a little weird.
17:50 PerlJam colomon: who are "they" that have pugs building aain?
17:50 PerlJam er, again
17:50 colomon masak and ingy seem to be the ringleaders.
17:51 colomon I think that R* needs to be mentioned separately at this time.  I certainly hope nom overtakes it during the month, and will edit the post accordingly when that happens.
17:54 colomon hmmm.... how does one properly spell Masak and Ingy?  Do I remember correctly that they both have umlauts?
17:55 PerlJam ingy döt net
17:55 PerlJam (I don't know if he goes by that moniker "for real" though)
17:56 daxim legal name.
17:56 pmichaud I'm pretty sure it's "for real"
17:56 daxim or "wallet name" is ’nym wars parlance
17:57 colomon ah, I'll just leave the "döt net" part off.
17:58 colomon and it's  Mäsak
17:59 jnthn Yes, that's correct :)
18:00 colomon jnthn: are there lists somewhere of the 1) new features of nom (versus b) 2) current shortcomings of nom?
18:00 pmichaud ...roadmap?
18:01 pmichaud (is it current?)
18:01 colomon pmichaud: nope
18:01 pmichaud maybe generate a list of rt tickets that have been closed since August?  ;-)
18:01 colomon last updated in august
18:01 pmichaud that would certainly identify things fixed in nom that were broken in b
18:01 colomon errr, august 2010
18:02 pmichaud sorry, I meant NOMMAP
18:02 jnthn We really should update ROADMAP before the next relesae.
18:02 jnthn brb, phone
18:03 colomon ah, NOMMAP.  (why isn't it in the docs directory?)
18:03 pmichaud it's intended to be temporary-ish, I believe
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18:08 Leo joined #perl6
18:09 Leo Who has the most advanced implementation of Perl6 at the moment?
18:10 PerlJam Leo: I do!
18:10 PerlJam Leo: and you can too!  :-)
18:11 Leo How do I get it then?
18:11 diakopter Leo: would you rather use mono/.Net or Parrot
18:12 Leo I'm on a mac, so that would be Parrot, right?
18:12 Leo (Well, not on a mac right now... at work... but will be from home.)
18:12 hundskatt joined #perl6
18:12 diakopter mono runs on Mac
18:14 Leo Would rather not have to go the mono route.  That the only way to get Perl6 on the mac?
18:15 ksi joined #perl6
18:16 PerlJam Leo: no, the parrot version runs fine (or it did last time I tried it)
18:17 colomon parrot version ran fine yesterday.  :)  (haven't checked today's yet.)
18:17 colomon (on mac, I mean)
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18:19 PerlJam colomon: btw, will your advent day 1 post really be about getting perl 6?  so far it just  describes the options.
18:19 Leo Can someone point me to a link or something for the latest parrot Perl6 then?  I am sure I can Google it, but since I am here with all you knowledgable people..  maybe you guys know of a secret implementation or something.  ;-)
18:20 diakopter depends how bleeding edge you want
18:20 PerlJam Leo: http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo-nom/
18:20 Leo PerlJam:  Huh?  This is a Perl6 forum right?
18:20 [Coke] if you want bleeding edge, and have git/perl/gcc installed, you can just grab the rakudo source from github and build from there, it will pull in everything you need.
18:20 PerlJam Leo: aye.  Rakudo is the name of one of the Perl 6 implementations
18:20 japhb moritz, My apologies.  :256[...] produces an Int.  I forgot that you were trying to get a Buf.  Although (big) Int -> Buf would be a nice operation to have.
18:20 Leo PerlJam:  Thanks!
18:21 [Coke] ah, and that page does what I just said. PerlJam++
18:21 am0c joined #perl6
18:22 pmichaud I think we no longer need the "git checkout nom" step
18:22 pmichaud (doesn't hurt to have it, though)
18:22 am0c left #perl6
18:22 colomon PerlJam: yeah, once I decided to mention four implementations, explaining how to install each sounded like too much.  But I should say something about the links, which do go to places with instructions.
18:22 pmichaud might also be worth changing "Building the nom compiler ..." to have "Perl 6" in it somewhere.
18:23 pmichaud afk again
18:26 Leo More questions:  How long (estimate) do you feel Perl6 (or Rakudo) will be "production ready"?  Who (or what org) makes the official call when it's finally ready?
18:26 moritz Leo: the users need to make that call
18:26 PerlJam Leo: there is no "official" call on that and probably never will be.
18:27 moritz Leo: there are applications (critical avionic mission control) where the JVM isn't considered "production ready"
18:28 Leo What percentage of the Perl6 spec does Raukdo implement then?   What's still missing?  (Best answered with another link?)
18:28 PerlJam Leo:  http://perl6.org/compilers/features.html  :-)
18:28 Leo Moritz:  Ha!
18:28 lichtkind will there this year http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/ ?
18:29 PerlJam lichtkind: yes!  Want to write one of them?
18:29 lichtkind am not sure i know enough
18:29 lichtkind yeah maybe
18:29 lichtkind currently busy writing other stuff
18:30 lichtkind i think 1 i can do
18:31 muixirt moritz: i like that notion of "production ready" :-)
18:32 PerlJam lichtkind: what's your email address?
18:32 lichtkind PerlJam: its my cpan ID
18:33 muixirt moritz: and what do they consider "production ready"?
18:33 dalek specs: 3c53f87 | larry++ | S02-bits.pod:
18:33 dalek specs: Start moving Failure outside of Any
18:33 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/3c53f87ce2
18:35 PerlJam lichtkind: you should get an invite soon (if not already)
18:35 Vlavv` joined #perl6
18:39 sorear good * #perl6
18:39 phenny sorear: 08:31Z <moritz> ask sorear if he'd like to write something for p6advent about his Unicode work for niecza
18:40 * sorear slept through #phasers :|
18:41 colomon sorear: pretty quiet #phasers today anyway
18:45 sorear didn't we have a getting Perl 6 post last year?
18:45 sorear snarkyboojum: still here?
18:47 colomon sorear: we had one two years ago, and the scene is quite a bit different these days.
18:48 mikemol This task looks like it might be interesting in Perl6: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Paraffins
18:48 PerlJam seems to me it's been "getting rakudo" until now.
18:49 PerlJam mikemol: write an advent post about it?  ;)
18:49 mikemol If only I had time. My tuit count is at an all time low.
18:50 PerlJam seems to be the case for everyone.
18:50 * mikemol nods
18:50 mikemol As soon as I have time available, I need to start jobhunting.
18:50 mikemol I have a job, but I need a different one.
18:52 Util mikemol: ooh, shiny! #Paraffins
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19:05 * colomon is doing his best to resist starting on the Paraffins thing....
19:07 TimToady I'd've called it "alkanes" myself...
19:08 TimToady especially if we eventually get "alkenes" and "alkynes"
19:14 sorear it's an abstraction anyway, it doesn't handle steric hindrance
19:15 sorear the name has historical significance iirc
19:22 lichtkind PerlJam: got it
19:24 * TimToady is inclined to think that Failure objects no longer need a .handled state
19:25 benabik If Failure is outside of any would sub epic($x) { $x }; epic fail "test" actually epically fail?
19:25 benabik Oops.
19:25 benabik Wait, no that was "right"
19:25 moritz epic() would never be called
19:25 TimToady no, fail returns
19:26 benabik Awh.
19:26 jnthn It'd pass CHECK though :)
19:26 moritz because the fail() returns the routine that the code is in
19:26 TimToady is why I suggested epic-fail
19:26 benabik Well, I guess it would be an epic failure, just not the kind I was expecting.  :-D
19:27 benabik I guess epic would have to be some kind of macro.  :-D
19:28 TimToady maybe a statement_prefix
19:32 lichtkind PerlJam: now im in
19:34 PerlJam lichtkind: now all you need to do is claim a day and write something :)
19:36 * [Coke] wonders what the point of skipping a test that is passing for the wrong reasons is.
19:37 [Coke] Surely it's better to let it run and at least then you'll find out if it starts failing.
19:37 moritz I usually skip them
19:37 [Coke] #?rakudo skip 'RT81718 (false positive in nom)'
19:38 [Coke] moritz: how do you know when to unskip them?
19:38 [Coke] you can't just autounfudge them, obviously.
19:38 moritz [Coke]: by running it occasionally, and checking if the error is right
19:38 moritz I know that's LTA
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19:39 [Coke] moritz: er, what error?
19:39 moritz isn't that about an error?
19:39 [Coke] If it's /passing/ ... what error are you checking?
19:39 lichtkind PerlJam: still wresle with the interface
19:39 moritz isn't that a dies_ok?
19:39 [Coke] yes.
19:40 [Coke] it's dying. that's what the test is checking. If that's not sufficient, shouldn't we rewrite the test?
19:40 moritz yes, we should
19:40 [Coke] and then TODO it?
19:40 [Coke] ok. Thanks. ;)
19:40 moritz but checking the error message is also fragile
19:40 moritz which is why I'm working on my exceptions grant :/
19:41 * [Coke] gives up on autounfudge. too much work.
19:42 dalek nqp: e680f11 | moritz++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
19:42 dalek nqp: bump parrot revision
19:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e680f11467
19:43 dalek rakudo/nom: 2b31355 | moritz++ | / (2 files):
19:43 dalek rakudo/nom: implement input-line-separator on IO::Socket::INET (not yet tested, but not regressing either)
19:43 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2b31355165
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19:52 [Coke] Do we have anyway to fudge based on anything other than platform? There's at least one thing that is fudge-skipped with a "fails on windows".
19:53 TimToady that seems like a rathole
19:53 moritz [Coke]: I'd rather not do that
19:54 [Coke] Am i the only one annoyed by skipping passing tests? ;)
19:55 [Coke] especially with all the regressions we just did on purpose, I'd hate for more to slip through accidentally.
19:55 moritz I'm much more annoyed by passing TODOs that clutter the test result report
19:55 [Coke] moritz: yes. I'm suggesting we avoid BOTH of those, and only todo the test when it is known to fail, not skip it when it might fail.
19:57 benabik [Coke]: Are you talking about S16/unlink?  I notice that there's a $iswin32 variable that goes completely unused.
19:57 moritz [Coke]: it's not (yet) a pain point for me
19:59 dalek roast: aeb8722 | coke++ | S02-literals/numeric.t:
19:59 dalek roast: Unfudge passing test (RT #70600)
19:59 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/aeb872222c
20:05 [Coke] nom: my $a="100.B".."102.B";say $a;say "$a";
20:05 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«"100.B".."102.B"␤No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu, Mu %_)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:634␤  in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2099␤  in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2099␤  in…
20:06 [Coke] nom: my $a= +"100.B";
20:06 p6eval nom f0ac58:  ( no output )
20:06 [Coke] nom: my $a= +"100.B"; say $a; say "$a"
20:06 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Failure.new()␤Decimal point must be followed by digit␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:3131␤  in sub prefix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1911␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/mcndu7TeBT:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/mcndu7TeBT:1␤»
20:11 [Coke] do we have a bot announcing new rakudobugs?
20:15 PerlJam .oO( How would the bot know about new bugs? )
20:15 PerlJam ;-)
20:16 jnthn Just use masak as a bot. :)
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20:18 moritz nom: say 0e9999999999999
20:18 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
20:19 [Coke] nom: say 0e9999999999999 == 0
20:19 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:19 [Coke] Odd. works for me.
20:19 [Coke] wonder if it needs a bignum library that the bot doesn't get.
20:19 PerlJam nom: say 1e9999999999999;
20:19 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
20:20 benabik Maybe the NeM notation isn't using bignums?
20:20 PerlJam nom: say 0e999; say 1e999;
20:20 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«NaN␤Inf␤»
20:20 benabik nom: say 1*10^9999999999999
20:20 moritz benabik: it isn't for the exponent, I think
20:20 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«one(10, 9999999999999)␤»
20:20 moritz nom: say 0 * 10 ** 9999999999999
20:20 benabik nom: say 1*(10**9999999999999)
20:20 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
20:20 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
20:20 benabik Strange.
20:20 moritz not so strange
20:21 * [Coke] swears this was working locally.
20:21 moritz benabik: just think about how much storage 10 ** 9999999999999 would need
20:21 benabik …  Details
20:21 benabik I want to shoot myself in the foot, darn it.  ;-)
20:22 PerlJam perl should stringify that number to "Ridiculously large"  :)
20:22 colomon it shouldn't need more than "10 ** 9999999999999".chars bytes, right?  ;)
20:22 moritz I've intentionally mapped bigint ** bigint to Inf
20:22 moritz colomon: :-)
20:23 [Coke] nom: say so 0e9999999999999 == 0
20:23 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:23 moritz though maybe we should special-case the 0e99999999999 thing
20:23 [Coke] nom: say so 0e999999999999999 == 0
20:23 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:23 [Coke] that line, which is the one from the ticket, DOES work locally.
20:23 benabik 0e<don't care> = 0 ?
20:24 moritz yes
20:24 moritz [Coke]: woah
20:24 PerlJam sounds sensible to me.
20:25 am0c joined #perl6
20:25 benabik nom: (2**65).WHAT.say
20:25 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
20:25 am0c left #perl6
20:26 PerlJam .oO( We've secretly replaced Coke's version of Rakudo with one from the future.  Let's see if anyone notices )
20:26 [Coke] Regarding 105004; "nothing else is derived" != "Nothing else CAN be derived from it".
20:26 benabik nom: my $x = 2**65**0; $x.say; $x.WHAT.say
20:26 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«2␤Int()␤»
20:26 benabik nom: my $x = (2**65)**0; $x.say; $x.WHAT.say
20:26 p6eval nom f0ac58: OUTPUT«1␤Int()␤»
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20:40 [Coke] TimToady: should users be able to subclass Whatever if they want?
20:41 masak colomon: both mberends and [Coke] have also expressed interest in hacking on Pugs.
20:41 jnthn nom: class ScrewItIDon'tCare is Whatever { }
20:41 p6eval nom f0ac58:  ( no output )
20:41 colomon masak: it is fair to describe you and ingy as ringleaders, though, right?
20:42 [Coke] masak, colomon: it is SUPER unlikely I will find time for that.
20:42 jnthn [Coke]: Is there a bug in doing so that makes you ask? :)
20:42 [Coke] jnthn: there is a bug just opened that you CAN subclass it.
20:43 jnthn [Coke]: Huh.
20:43 jnthn Why shouldn't you be able to...
20:43 jnthn :)
20:43 [Coke] and the submitter claims this is a bug because the spec says "nothing derives from it"
20:43 masak colomon: sounds like it's a sect, not a restoration project. but beyond that, I guess it's fair :)
20:43 [Coke] so I'm just hoping we can clarify the spec and close the rakudobug.
20:43 jnthn [Coke]: Do they give an actual spec ref?
20:47 [Coke] https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=105004
20:47 cognominal_ is ingy a european to be diacritical?
20:47 [Coke] which references S04:1292
20:47 [Coke] I think he's just a contrarian.
20:48 masak cognominal_: he's a döt on the 'Net, but not a cog in the machine.
20:49 [Coke] (ingy, not stephane)
20:49 cognominal_ I am a cog too :)
20:49 * masak .oO( cogtrarian )
20:50 carlin joined #perl6
20:51 dalek roast: b75d873 | coke++ | S03-operators/range.t:
20:51 dalek roast: fudge RT#105014 for rakudo
20:51 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b75d87339a
20:51 cognominal_ I am using pir:: and get burnt using such an instruction as last statement of a function. I think it is not the first time. jnthn, should I file a bug?
20:51 cognominal_ I am not sure if these internals should be documented or supported.
20:52 [Coke] don't use pir::
20:52 [Coke] are you using it in rakudo code or nqp code?
20:52 benabik [Coke]: Doctor, it hurts when I use pir::?
20:53 [Coke] if rakudo, I'd say don't do that.
20:53 [Coke] ... I'm biased, though, as I'm trying to keep the # of tickets down. ;)
20:53 jnthn cognominal_: Typical users should not be using pir::. The only reason you don't need a pragma to be allowed to use it is because I didn't get around to it.
20:54 cognominal_ I am dabbling at undestanding what is necessary for a f:rom<nqp> so I am not sure how to answering coke.
20:54 jnthn cognominal_: If you are using it, then there's a various things you need to know, and many, many ways to make the code-gen go wrong.
20:55 cognominal_ jnthn, I have already hit quite a few of them  :)
20:55 jnthn cognominal_: One of them is that if you use a void op as the last thing in a block, you're going to have fun :)
20:56 jnthn Anyway, I don't think we should have tickets about pir::. We could end up with a dozen tickets about it.
20:56 cognominal_ that was implicitely  my point when I said [21:51]  <cognominal_> I am not sure if these internals should be documented or supported.
20:57 cognominal_ on the other hand I find pir:: code a good way to have a feel about the internals.
20:57 jnthn cognominal_: Documented is fine if it's for the benefit of Rakudo developers.
20:57 jnthn cognominal_: Though really we should be using nqp:: ops these days.
20:58 jnthn cognominal_: But I'd strongly discourage their use out of core.
20:58 cognominal_ I agree.
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21:01 dalek roast: 1c4c5f0 | coke++ | S06-other/main-usage.t:
21:01 dalek roast: fudge RT#105018 for rakudo
21:01 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1c4c5f0598
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21:07 [Coke] jnthn: FYI, I'm going to start giving tickets to things that are marked "nom regression"
21:07 jnthn [Coke]: ok, wfm.
21:07 [Coke] (any new ones I'm finding in "make spectest" are getting tickets outright.)
21:09 lichtkind PerlJam: i still  dont grok the system but i think writing something would be good anyhow :)
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21:59 masak [Coke]++ # RT-ifying nom regressions
22:37 sorear good * #perl6
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22:41 whiteknight joined #perl6
22:42 masak good night, #perl6
22:43 sorear bye
22:43 colomon o/
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23:51 vmspb Hi, sorear.  Niecza does not have built-in Readline?
23:51 vmspb I used on Ubuntu an external Readline shell - RLFE. It looks good
23:51 vmspb $ rlfe mono run/Niecza.exe  or
23:51 vmspb $ rlfe -h ~/.perl6_history mono run/Niecza.exe
23:58 sorear vmspb: I use rlwrap with the niecza repl personally

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