Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2011-12-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:31 colomon anyone out there?  :)
02:32 colomon nom: say &sin.signature
02:32 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«:(Any)␤»
02:33 colomon nom: say &sin.signature.WHAT
02:33 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«Signature()␤»
02:34 colomon nom: say &sin.signature.params.perl
02:34 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«(Any,).list␤»
02:34 TimToady you should realize nobody is here Friday night except extreme dweebs :)
02:35 colomon TimToady: can't really go out for the evening without getting a babysitter.  ;)
02:36 colomon nom: sub foo(Int $a, Rat $b) { say "I don't care!"; }; say &foo.signature.params.perl
02:36 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«(Int $a, Rat $b).list␤»
02:36 colomon nom: sub foo(Int $a, Rat $b) { say "I don't care!"; }; say &foo.signature.params[0].WHAT
02:36 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«Parameter()␤»
02:39 colomon TimToady: did you see the 'is cached' implementations flying by earlier?
02:42 TimToady yes, that's cool
02:42 colomon I love that it's possible to implement so simply.
02:43 colomon I mean, obviously the industrial version will be more complicated.
02:44 * colomon is trying to implement "is symmetric" without luck so far
02:54 colomon sad thing is, I'm pretty sure jnthn could answer my question in under a minute, if he were awake....
03:00 colomon phenny: tell jnthn https://gist.github.com/1425858 -- how do I get the routine name into the instantiate_generic?
03:00 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
03:16 * diakopter extreme dweeb
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03:36 * japhb apparently is as well
03:39 japhb Led Zeppelin is so much less fun when you've got it quiet enough not to wake the little one(s)
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04:30 PerlJam colomon: you mean like $r.name ?
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05:09 lue hello world o/
05:09 phenny lue: 01 Dec 14:53Z <[Coke]> ask lue what he meant by the comment at the top of S32-list/minmax.t
05:09 * lue looks
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05:12 lue ping [Coke]
05:16 lue phenny: tell [Coke] look at commit 4925244e78 . Apparently that comment is a reference to the fact the array was defined with <> instead of (), which didn't work.
05:16 phenny lue: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
05:17 lue phenny: tell [Coke] (The tone of the comment shows it was from way back in my early days of Perl 6. I'm sure there are a couple more comments of mine in roast I wish weren't written they way they are)
05:17 phenny lue: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
05:21 greg_72 hi, I see that the Rakudo compiler is written in Perl 5. Some time ago I have hear rumours that Perl 6 is developed using Haskell. Is it abandoned?
05:22 cxreg that's wildly inaccurate
05:22 cxreg there was an early versionuanu
05:22 cxreg ack
05:22 cxreg an earlier implementation of perl 6 named pugs was in haskell
05:22 cxreg rakudo is not written in perl 5
05:23 cxreg it's mostly written in perl 6
05:23 cxreg with some parts in nqp
05:23 greg_72 ah, right
05:23 greg_72 what is nqp?
05:23 cxreg http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Parr​ot_Virtual_Machine/Not_Quite_Perl
05:25 greg_72 I see
05:26 PerlJam greg_72: STD is written in Perl 5.  Perhaps that's what you're thinking of (but just don't know it)
05:27 greg_72 I sais perl 5 because I saw the code of rakudo in /src and it seemed like perl 5
05:27 PerlJam greg_72: ah.  Perl is still Perl :)
05:28 greg_72 I was doing perl for four years and loved it
05:28 * cxreg wonders what's up with the fact that http://rakudo.org/ hasnt had an update in 3 months
05:28 benabik Uh.  The parrot wikibook.
05:28 benabik ugh, even
05:29 greg_72 how much work is missing from rakudo being able to compile the whole perl 6 language?
05:29 cxreg i guess theres still some pir in there too
05:29 PerlJam cxreg: pmichaud does most of the updates and he's been largely busy with other things.
05:29 cxreg yeah i heard, is he ok?
05:29 PerlJam cxreg: he's fine afaik, but his wife has serious health issues.
05:30 cxreg :(
05:31 PerlJam greg_72: http://perl6.org/compilers/features  That might give you some idea
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05:41 dalek features: f78f01f | moritz++ | features.json:
05:41 dalek features: diakopter++ brought Unicode properties to nom
05:41 dalek features: review: https://github.com/perl6/f​eatures/commit/f78f01fbac
05:42 greg_72 PerlJam: thanks
05:44 PerlJam greg_72: Though the language is a moving target, so "compile the whole language" doesn't always make sense :)
05:45 PerlJam greg_72: btw, checkout perl6advent.wordpress.com
05:45 greg_72 PerlJam: ok this was too academic, your link might answer when will I be ready for Perl 6 programming
05:46 PerlJam greg_72: I think many people are ready now, they just don't have enough good learning resources.  We're working on that though.
05:47 PerlJam greg_72: see https://github.com/perl6/book/downloads
05:48 TimToady actually, STD is also written in Perl 6 that is translated to Perl 5
05:48 greg_72 PerlJam:  a hundred pages, that seem to be fine, not too long
05:48 PerlJam greg_72: not finished yet either.
05:49 greg_72 that makes no problem, the important is that it gives a taste of it
05:49 PerlJam greg_72: oh, check out the perl 6 problems on rosettacode.org too.  you can compare with perl 5 and other languages.
05:50 greg_72 I did build management in perl and it was The Proper Tool, I guess perl 6 will be Even More Proper. I did ClearCase stuff in it
05:55 sorear PerlJam: STD is written in Perl 6.  there is a very ad-hoc compiler in 'viv' which compiles Perl 6 grammars very well and makes a weak and inconsistant attempt at translating other code
05:56 sorear PerlJam: TimToady has said things in the past to the effect that STD's time has passed
05:57 xinming joined #perl6
05:58 sorear greg_72: Perl 6 is a vastly better language than Perl 5 in a lot of ways, but there are still issues with the implementations (they're all slow memory hogs) and libraries (quite sparse)
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06:54 Woodi perl6: my int $i; $i--;
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06:54 p6eval pugs b927740:  ( no output )
06:54 p6eval ..rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in sub postfix:<--> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2366␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/DaRTizee92:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/DaRTizee92:1␤»
06:55 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Malformed my at /tmp/9X5tjN4Wm5 line 1:�------> [32mmy [33m�[31mint $i; $i--;[0m��Parse failed��»
06:55 Woodi perl6: my int $i=1; $i--;
06:55 p6eval niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Malformed my at /tmp/bPqYiNMvlh line 1:�------> [32mmy [33m�[31mint $i=1; $i--;[0m��Parse failed��»
06:55 p6eval ..rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in sub postfix:<--> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2366␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/yMF1W6z6Sq:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/yMF1W6z6Sq:1␤»
06:55 p6eval ..pugs b927740:  ( no output )
06:55 Woodi perl6: my int $i=1; $i-1;
06:55 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 676b35:  ( no output )
06:55 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Malformed my at /tmp/QVz5XhlZAG line 1:�------> [32mmy [33m�[31mint $i=1; $i-1;[0m��Parse failed��»
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08:35 Woodi hmm, found interesting fact about avionics software documentation :)  "One of the odder documentation requirements is that most commercial contracts require an assurance that system documentation will be available indefinitely. The normal commercial method of providing this assurance is to form and fund a small foundation or trust. The trust then maintains a mailbox and deposits copies (usually in ultrafiche) in a secure location, such as rented s
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10:38 JimmyZ rakudo: https://gist.github.com/1426729  # help, I wonders why say 'process' never be called
10:38 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "https://gi"␤»
10:38 JimmyZ rakudo: https://gist.github.com/1426729
10:38 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«begin␤I was called with 1␤2␤I was called with 2␤4␤I was called with 1␤2␤I was called with 2␤4␤»
10:47 JimmyZ sub cached(Routine $r) { my %cache;$r.wrap(-> |$c {say 'process';my $key := $c.gist;%cache.exists($key) ??%cache{$key} !!(%cache{$key} = callsame)});}; cached sub foo($a) {return 2 * $a;}; say foo(1);say foo(2);  # why wrap is not called?
10:48 JimmyZ rakudo: sub cached(Routine $r) { my %cache;$r.wrap(-> |$c {say 'process';my $key := $c.gist;%cache.exists($key) ??%cache{$key} !!(%cache{$key} = callsame)});}; cached sub foo($a) {return 2 * $a;}; say foo(1);say foo(2);
10:48 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«2␤4␤»
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12:37 jnthn afternoon, #perl6
12:37 phenny jnthn: 02 Dec 22:45Z <japhb> ask jnthn OOC, what do you teach?
12:37 phenny jnthn: 03:00Z <colomon> tell jnthn https://gist.github.com/1425858 -- how do I get the routine name into the instantiate_generic?
12:37 colomon o/
12:37 jnthn colomon: Name? :)
12:38 colomon jnthn: my is symmetric code runs, but doesn't seem to actually create another multi named foo (or whatever)
12:39 jnthn colomon: Right, you need to do a little more work at the end of symmetric
12:39 jnthn colomon: $r is a single candidate. To get its controlling proto, do $r.dispatcher
12:39 jnthn Then you need to add your generated sub to that
12:39 colomon ooooo
12:40 jnthn $r.dispatcher.add_dispatchee(gen(@params[0].type, @params[1].type))
12:41 colomon and that works!
12:42 colomon jnthn++
12:42 jnthn yeah
12:42 jnthn and since this is a trait mod, it's OK to do that.
12:43 colomon to call add_dispatchee, you mean?
12:43 jnthn (Note that adding candidates after CHECK time is a really bad idea. But traits run at BEGIN time, so it's all good. :))
12:43 jnthn colomon: yes
12:43 mberends joined #perl6
12:43 jnthn mberends! \o/
12:43 mberends \o/
12:43 phenny mberends: 01 Dec 15:24Z <moritz> ask mberends if he wants to d a p6advent post on Tetris in niecza
12:44 colomon jnthn: so, can we get is symmetric into core?  it ought to be a big help with some math operators...
12:44 jnthn phenny: tell japhb Well, next week I'll be teaching an advanced C# course. I teach various others. :)
12:44 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when japhb is around.
12:44 jnthn colomon: Is it spec?
12:44 colomon jnthn: if it's not, it easily can be.  ;)
12:45 mberends moritz: yes, that's a good idea (p6advent post on Tetris in niecza)
12:45 colomon it doesn't look like it is spec yet
12:46 jnthn colomon: OK. Wouldn't mind hearing TimToady say "yeah, it's OK to be in core" before we add it :)
12:46 jnthn colomon: Especially if we're going to make other things in core depend on it.
12:51 JimmyZ rakudo: sub cached(Routine $r) { my %cache;$r.wrap(-> |$c {say 'process';my $key := $c.gist;%cache.exists($key) ??%cache{$key} !!(%cache{$key} = callsame)});}; cached sub foo($a) {return 2 * $a;}; say foo(1);say foo(2);  # why wrap is not called?
12:51 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«2␤4␤»
12:53 xinming joined #perl6
12:54 JimmyZ or I misused it
12:55 jnthn oh, hm
12:57 jnthn Yeah, it's the closure clone stuff that gets in the way there.
12:58 * JimmyZ wonders how to fix it
12:58 toebu joined #perl6
12:58 * jnthn too :)
12:59 toebu perl6: sub coercing ($people as Int) {  say "$people people in the room"; } coercing people=>34.4;
12:59 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "sub coerci"␤»
12:59 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Action method trait_mod:as not yet implemented at /tmp/m0X6j7CPgH line 1:â�¤------> [32msub coercing ($people as Int[33mâ��[31m) {  say "$people people in the room"; }[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Cannot use hash access on an obj…
12:59 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "as"␤    expecting "?", "!", trait, "=", default value, "-->" or ")"␤    at /tmp/gwuv48WBj5 line 1, column 23␤»
13:00 toebu perl6: sub coercing ($people as Int) {  say "$people people in the room"; } coercing 34.4;
13:00 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "sub coerci"␤»
13:00 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "as"␤    expecting "?", "!", trait, "=", default value, "-->" or ")"␤    at /tmp/Le4uY88bMa line 1, column 23␤»
13:00 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Action method trait_mod:as not yet implemented at /tmp/_A8qlGK2Qk line 1:â�¤------> [32msub coercing ($people as Int[33mâ��[31m) {  say "$people people in the room"; }[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Cannot use hash access on an obj…
13:00 toebu perl6: sub coercing ($people as Int) {  say "$people people in the room"; }; coercing 34.4;
13:00 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "as"␤    expecting "?", "!", trait, "=", default value, "-->" or ")"␤    at /tmp/XQ9AHVin_H line 1, column 23␤»
13:00 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Action method trait_mod:as not yet implemented at /tmp/jF5H4CGxvt line 1:â�¤------> [32msub coercing ($people as Int[33mâ��[31m) {  say "$people people in the room"; }[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Cannot use hash access on an obj…
13:00 p6eval ..rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«34 people in the room␤»
13:01 JimmyZ rakudo: sub foo($a) {return 2 * $a;}; my %cache; &foo.wrap(-> |$c {say 'process';my $key := $c.gist;%cache.exists($key) ??%cache{$key} !!(%cache{$key} = callsame)});say foo(1); say foo(2); # this one works well
13:01 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«process␤2␤process␤4␤»
13:02 jnthn JimmyZ: Right. It never clones &foo there.
13:03 jnthn JimmyZ: Trouble is, the thing getting in the way here is also rather helpful for people making generator functions and the like.
13:03 toebu perl6: sub b($a){say $a};b a=2;
13:03 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&a' called (line 1)␤»
13:03 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤      'a' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 880 (die @ 2) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1139 (P6.comp_unit @ 32) â�¤  at /home/p6e…
13:03 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&a"␤    at /tmp/nokaNqcrFK line 1, column 19-24␤»
13:03 toebu perl6: sub b($a){say $a};b a  => 2 ;
13:03 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«a  2␤»
13:03 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«2␤»
13:03 p6eval ..rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤  in sub b at /tmp/gwoQR7fuMX:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/gwoQR7fuMX:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/gwoQR7fuMX:1␤»
13:04 JimmyZ toebu: you maybe want rakudo: or niecza:
13:04 toebu except that rakudo seems not to like access to positional parameters by name at the moment
13:05 toebu JimmyZ: yes for the call :-)
13:05 JimmyZ rakudo: sub b(:$a){say $a};b a => 2 ;
13:05 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«2␤»
13:05 JimmyZ toebu: ^^
13:05 donri joined #perl6
13:05 jnthn JimmyZ: Interestingly, S06 also has this:
13:05 jnthn my &old_thermo := &thermo;
13:06 jnthn &thermo = sub ($t) { old_thermo( ($t-32)/1.8 ) }
13:06 toebu rakudo: sub b(:$a){say $a};b a  => 2 ;b 2;
13:06 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«2␤Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in sub b at /tmp/cWO0ztDQ9_:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/cWO0ztDQ9_:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/cWO0ztDQ9_:1␤»
13:06 jnthn Which actually relies on the closure behavior you're running in to.
13:06 toebu it used to be the case, that positional parameters could also be accessed by name ... has this changed ?
13:07 donri moritz: re buffers: in the terminal your examples give me two different outputs, in google reader your post shows the correct unicode and in wordpress the actual bytes
13:08 donri so the claim that "Both of those output operations have the same effect" is false for me, in fedora 16 rakudo
13:09 jnthn toebu: There were certainly spec changes in that area. I forget exactly how it ended up.
13:10 donri perl6: $*OUT.write(Buf.new(0x6d, 0xc3, 0xb8, 0xc3, 0xbe, 0x0a))
13:10 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«møþ␤»
13:10 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Scalar: "&write"␤    at /tmp/D3m_OFyS9G line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
13:10 p6eval ..niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared name:â�¤ 'Buf' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 880 (die @ 2) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1139 (P6.comp_unit @ 32) â�¤  at /home/p6ev…
13:10 donri nom: $*OUT.write(Buf.new(0x6d, 0xc3, 0xb8, 0xc3, 0xbe, 0x0a))
13:10 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«møþ␤»
13:11 donri me: This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2011.07 built on parrot 3.6.0
13:12 donri bbl food
13:12 JimmyZ jnthn: Is it a rakudo bug or my bug?
13:13 jnthn JimmyZ: I found the behavior a little surprising. But the sample I just pasted from S06 seems to suggest Rakudo may well be doing the right thing here.
13:15 toebu do named maches not work at present ?
13:16 jnthn toebu: Passing positional arguments to positional parameters works. Passing named arguments to named parameters works.
13:17 jnthn It used to be that you could pass positional parameters by their name.
13:17 toebu ok
13:18 JimmyZ jnthn: I still don't know it's a rakudo bug or my bug :(
13:19 jnthn JimmyZ: Me either.
13:19 jnthn :)
13:19 toebu what about named captures in regular expressions ?
13:19 * JimmyZ can't understand english well enough sometimes
13:20 jnthn toebu: Should work
13:20 jnthn nom: "abc123def" ~~ /$<digits>=[\d+]/; say $<digits>
13:20 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«=> <123>␤␤»
13:20 jimmy1980 joined #perl6
13:21 toebu nom: my regex hfind { :i [ (Hello) \s? ]+ } "HeLLo hello" ~~ m{ <hname=&hfind> }; say $/<hname>[0].join(', ');
13:21 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "my regex h"␤»
13:21 * colomon just figured out how to get mouse button events in the Gtk mandelbrot program!  o/
13:22 toebu nom: my regex hfind { :i [ (Hello) \s? ]+ }; "HeLLo hello" ~~ m{ <hname=&hfind> }; say $/<hname>[0].join(', ');
13:22 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«␤»
13:23 jnthn toebu: Pretty sure that's an issue with :i, not with the capturing.
13:23 toebu nom: my regex hfind {  [ (Hello) \s? ]+ }; "HeLLo hello" ~~ m{ <hname=&hfind> }; say $/<hname>[0].join(', ');
13:23 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«␤»
13:23 baest joined #perl6
13:23 toebu nom: my regex hfind {  [ (Hello) \s? ]+ }; "Hello hello" ~~ m{ <hname=&hfind> }; say $/<hname>[0].join(', ');
13:24 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«Hello␤»
13:24 jnthn https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9​4d01246e7d286bb2a4df32ba9c2ba733d0aec04 # the spec commit that changed named => positional binding
13:25 toebu thanks
13:27 jnthn bbl
13:27 toebu nom: sub postfix:<!> { [*] 1..$^n }; say 5!;
13:27 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5!;"␤»
13:27 toebu nom: sub postfix:<!> { [*] 1..$^n }; say 5 !;
13:27 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5 !;"␤»
13:28 toebu what is confusing rakudo here ?
13:29 flussence nom: sub postfix:<!>($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 5!;
13:29 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5!;"␤»
13:29 flussence hm
13:29 flussence b: sub postfix:<!>($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 5!;
13:29 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«120␤»
13:29 flussence probably a bug somewhere in nom
13:29 toebu flussence: what is b ?
13:30 flussence old rakudo
13:30 JimmyZ rakudo: sub cached(Routine &r) { my %cache; &r.wrap(-> |$c {say 'process';my $key := $c.gist;%cache.exists($key) ??%cache{$key} !!(%cache{$key} = callsame)});}; cached sub foo($a) {return 2 * $a;}; say foo(1);say foo(2); # why wrap is not called?
13:30 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Typed arrays/hashes/callables not yet implemented at line 1, near ") { my %ca"␤»
13:30 toebu grin
13:30 JimmyZ rakudo: sub cached(&r) { my %cache; &r.wrap(-> |$c {say 'process';my $key := $c.gist;%cache.exists($key) ??%cache{$key} !!(%cache{$key} = callsame)});}; cached sub foo($a) {return 2 * $a;}; say foo(1);say foo(2); # why wrap is not called?
13:30 p6eval rakudo 676b35: OUTPUT«2␤4␤»
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13:33 JimmyZ jnthn:  so do I need ticket it ?
13:33 JimmyZ need to
13:34 JimmyZ aloha, xinming
13:40 donri colomon: p6 bindings for gtk?
13:49 Woodi are modules vs classes in Perl6 are lightweight ? I just thinking about rewriting class to module for performance reson...
13:51 colomon donri: using Niecza, you bet
13:51 donri ah
13:51 donri because i was thinking a port of pygobject to nativecall would be coolness
13:52 donri then you'd get all the libs found by locate .gir for free
13:53 colomon https://github.com/colomon/mandelbro​t/blob/master/bin/gtk-mandelbrot.pl is what I'm working on, the Gtk stuff starts around line 230.
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14:14 mberends colomon: I like! What are the mouse/button events going to do, change colors, zoom, pan maybe?
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14:15 grondilu I ran out of memory trying to compile last rakudo version :(
14:16 grondilu I currently have 1Go RAM.  Would adding swap solve the issue?
14:17 mberends grondilu: yes, but at the expense of much slower compile times. Stopping all unnecessary processes (eg Firefox) is much more helpful.
14:18 grondilu oh yeah indeed firefox is running.  Hadn't noticed.
14:18 * mberends often has the same problem on a netbook :)
14:21 * flussence tries compiling it ooc
14:27 mberends jnthn: regarding your recent 6model/reprs refactor, if a representation (eg CPointer) does "this_repr->attr_funcs = NULL;", it will go boom instead of throwing an exception if any HOW code accidentally tries to call a non-existent repr function. I think instead of NULL, could you point this_repr->attr_funcs to a default "not implemented" thrower?
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14:34 jnthn mberends: Already done; see in repr_registry.c
14:35 mberends jnthn++ :D
14:35 jnthn Thanks for reviewing :)
14:36 JimmyZ jnthn:  do I need to ticket it ?
14:37 mberends jnthn: not strictly reviewing, trying to grok everything for 6model/c. I have this idea of trying to golf the essence of 6model down into a mini subset in one C file for a proof of concept, do you thing that's worth trying to do?
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14:42 jnthn JimmyZ: Not for now. I'm curious if TimToady++ will have some opinion in the backlog.
14:42 jnthn *when he backlogs
14:42 jnthn mberends: Sounds feasible
14:43 mberends :-) yay! -Ofun for weeks and months ahead
14:43 jnthn mberends: Note that - other than the REPR function table refactor - the rest are not 6model core things but rather just extra representations.
14:43 jnthn mberends: There's a mechanism now for other libraries to dynamically register extra representations.
14:44 jnthn mberends: I guess I probably shouldn't have put the dynamic ones into the src/6model/reprs/ folder...
14:44 mberends jnthn: yes, mostly NCI support. How many representations would a typical p6 program use?
14:45 JimmyZ dynreprs?
14:46 mberends that's a good folder name
14:46 * grondilu could compile finaly
14:46 JimmyZ that look like dynpmcs or dynops
14:46 jnthn mberends: The overwhelming majority of objects are P6opaque. P6[int|num|str] are involved in the native type support.
14:46 JimmyZ *looks
14:47 JimmyZ but I like it
14:47 jnthn mberends: KnowHOWREPR is for the core bootstrap. Uninstantiable is about the most boring repr imaginable; we use it for things taht are, well, uninstantiable. :)
14:48 mberends jnthn: ok, so the repr registry can get away with a simple unoptimized data structure, maybe a single linked list.
14:48 jnthn mberends: oh, we rarely hit the registry
14:49 jnthn mberends: Generally, only when declaring a new type.
14:49 mberends yes, it's almost always (shared) pointers to reprs in objects.
14:49 jnthn Beyond that, the st points off to it
14:49 jnthn right
14:50 * mberends is beginning to grok some parts of 6model ;)
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14:53 * jnthn goes for a quick walk before it gets totoally dark
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15:00 colomon mberends: my current plan (subject to being able to get it to work) is that leftclick and drag opens up a zoom of the region you sketch out that way, and rightclick opens up a Julia set at the point you clicked on.  (I'm trying to start with the latter.)
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15:02 mberends colomon++: oh wow, that's going to be awesome (modulo performance)!
15:02 colomon mberends: yeah, performance is frustrating at the moment
15:03 dalek mu: b994051 | (Martin Berends)++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule:
15:03 dalek mu: assign 'Tetris on Niecza' to Day 6
15:03 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b994051e8e
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15:05 dalek mu: f0804af | (Martin Berends)++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule:
15:05 dalek mu: add an author name to Day 6 -- kinda useful
15:05 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/f0804afad9
15:05 * flussence just finished the part with compiling CORE.setting.pir - it's very RAM-hungry
15:06 flussence (800MB)
15:06 dalek mu: 6102bef | (Martin Berends)++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/topic-brainstorming:
15:06 dalek mu: move Tetris to planned list
15:06 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/6102bef5b6
15:11 colomon mberends++
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15:15 mberends :-) the post is quite easy to do - it will be the transcript of the soundtrack of the London Perl Workshop talk. The slides are already in niecza/docs, so it's a matter of remembering the audio between the images. Thanks to amsterdam.pm for getting me to give this talk in the first place.
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15:17 colomon mberends: I wasn't able to figure out how to link to the slides in HTML form, else I would have linked to it from the Day 1 post.  :)  More of a surprise for readers this way, though!
15:19 * jnthn back
15:20 mberends colomon: I also tried and failed (eg with raw view) to get the HTML to display straight out of github, they probably wrap the content in some way that does not help us.
15:20 * flussence found it amusing that the first article in the php advent calendar is about the importance of having fun :)
15:21 colomon mberends: do you have somewhere to host it?  I could stick it up online if needed.
15:22 mberends colomon: please do. I plan to set up a host somewhere, but tuit fail.
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15:23 colomon http://www.harmonyware.com/perl/niecza-gtk.html
15:27 colomon mberends: do you have much experience getting IntPtrs working in niecza?
15:27 mberends colomon: not yet, but I'll look with you
15:28 colomon I'm thinking I need SetData (string key, IntPtr data) to attach info to a window
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15:29 mberends first thought is to try an array of int with only one element in it
15:29 colomon public IntPtr (int value);
15:29 colomon that looks like it might do the job nicely
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15:34 colomon bingo!
15:34 mberends \o/ is IntPtr a built in CLR class?
15:34 Timbus colomon, the traditional way to bind an event in gtk is to have a .connect method and the first arg is the event name
15:35 colomon mberends: yes
15:35 colomon Timbus: is that a general comment, or am I doing something wrong with my code?
15:35 Timbus well, just looking at the first example
15:36 Timbus you have on_DeleteEvent
15:36 Timbus this would cxonfuse and anger me, a long time gtk programmer
15:36 colomon versus something like on_Event("Delete", ...
15:36 colomon ?
15:36 Timbus yus
15:36 colomon are you sure that's not a Gtk versus Gtk# thing?
15:37 xinming joined #perl6
15:37 * colomon is a very very shorttime Gtk programmer
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15:39 Timbus well, i think its a gtk(C, C++, perl, python,) thing vs gtk#
15:39 Timbus which seems to be slightly different here
15:39 mberends all the niecza examples are written in the style of $window.add_DeleteEvent( ...
15:39 Timbus oh wait no, gtkmm has the event as a method
15:39 Timbus hello_world.signal_clicked( ).connect(
15:39 Timbus augh thats even worse
15:41 mberends Timbus: if you have niecza running locally, I think we'd all appreciate pointers towards better use of Gtk# :)
15:43 Timbus hmmm if I have monodevelop do i just need to checkout and build?
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15:48 Timbus a fundamental problem with gtk (perl5) is that it's terrible with threads. and since gtk's event system is pretty abysmal at dealing with blocking operations (especially non-I/O ones), you really need threads
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15:48 Timbus so if niecza+gtk works with threads, thats a good start
15:50 Timbus also, traditionally a spawned thread signals the mainloop not by a socket or whatever, but by calling gtk_main_add_idle
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15:52 Timbus this is important because you cant do that using fork or perls 'ithreads'
15:55 mberends so far the niecza code we have written to use Gtk# has been only single threaded. I think Niecza can create multiple threads, but I'm not really sure.
15:58 Timbus well, if you can spawn a thread after loading gtk code, and also kill the thread.. that's still beating perl5
15:59 Timbus heh. aim high
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16:08 [Coke] moritz: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2011/12/03/buffers-and-binary-io/ seems to have bad strings:
16:08 phenny [Coke]: 05:16Z <lue> tell [Coke] look at commit 4925244e78 . Apparently that comment is a reference to the fact the array was defined with <> instead of (), which didn't work.
16:08 phenny [Coke]: 05:17Z <lue> tell [Coke] (The tone of the comment shows it was from way back in my early days of Perl 6. I'm sure there are a couple more comments of mine in roast I wish weren't written they way they are)
16:08 [Coke] oth of those output operations have the same effect, and print møþ to the standard output stream
16:12 jnthn yeah, looks that way for me too
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16:35 colomon Timbus: any hints about getting the X, Y coordinates of a mouse button press / release?
16:42 colomon oh, X and Y get.
16:43 PerlJam Is there a way to pretty-print .gist/.perl output?  With indentions and such
16:53 colomon mberends: Just pushed the very first code that can handle creates a Julia set corresponding to where you right-click on the mandelbrot set.  afk # fetching noms
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16:58 mberends colomon++: it works! # beautiful Mandelbrot and Julia fractals in https://raw.github.com/colomon/mand​elbrot/master/bin/gtk-mandelbrot.pl
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17:23 dalek ecosystem: 7c3150b | duff++ | META.list:
17:23 dalek ecosystem: Add Grammar::Profiler::Simple
17:23 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/7c3150bfd3
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17:48 colomon mberends: yeah, just needs zooming and more gracefulness....
17:48 colomon and lots and lots more speed.
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19:53 sorear good * #perl6
19:55 jnthn evenin', sorear
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19:59 sorear Timbus: I'm not sure if niecza's Threads.pm6 supports nonconsentual termination of threads.  That kind of feature is quite out of favor in modern libs like the CLR :|
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20:18 * sorear plays a bit with colomon's mandelbrot
20:19 moritz [Coke]: thanks, fixed
20:19 colomon sorear: improved version coming in a couple of minutes -- now with zoom!
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20:22 sorear colomon: I was thinking a cool feature would be incremental rendering
20:23 * sorear will try that
20:23 * sorear wonders what @color_map is and why it's not procedural
20:24 colomon @color_map is the old fractint color scheme
20:25 colomon why it's not procedural -- I haven't studied it enough to find a pattern, if it has one.
20:25 sorear another glaring issue I'll look at: it crashes on resize, but declares itself resizable in the metadata
20:25 colomon sorear: I've got resizing fixed, I believe.
20:26 sorear my WM fullscreens resizable windows by default, and mandelbrot crashes before I have a chance to un-fullscreen it
20:26 colomon but zooming isn't quite zooming in at the right place yet.
20:26 * sorear has been playing with mandelbrot using Xnest :1 with no WM running inside.  Ugly but works
20:27 colomon let me go ahead and upload what I've got anyway.
20:28 colomon pushed
20:34 sorear hrm, opening a fullscreen mandelbrot might still take a while
20:34 colomon right
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20:34 * sorear wants to make this thing multi-threaded with the ability to cancel renders
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20:37 colomon sorear: sounds like a noble ambition.
20:37 colomon I've also thought about a progress bar.
20:38 colomon although displaying it as it is calculated would also be cool.
20:38 colomon anyway, I probably should do an hour or two of $work now
20:39 colomon I think this counts as a reasonably successful day of niecza/gtk hacking.  :)
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20:43 * sorear wonders if it would be a net win to have the main loop detect attractive limit cycles (approximate repetition with negative Lyapunov exponent) and just return Inf
20:44 sorear as a special case, detecting the large disks (which wouldn't help much when zoomed)
20:47 colomon my old mandelbrot program detected repetition.  but it was running higher order polynomials, so skipping calculations was a big win.
20:47 colomon I've been thinking about the large disk case, it seems a natural improvement.
20:48 colomon now googling "negative Lyapunov exponent"....
20:51 dalek mu: 8adf7dd | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/ (2 files):
20:51 dalek mu: [advent] update schedule, brainstorm
20:51 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/8adf7dd7a6
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20:55 sorear what I've never understood about the Mandelbrot set is _why_ it is self-similar.
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20:56 colomon I don't know a really good explanation, but I do have a bit of a quick intuitive one that captures some of it.
20:57 sorear the self-similarity in simple iteration fractals makes sense - in an area where the transition map has a large derivative, it creates a scaled down image of a large area
20:57 sorear but that only helps me with Julia, not Mandelbrot
20:57 colomon .... and which may be a level simpler than you're already thinking.
20:58 diakopter sorear: magic :)
20:58 Woodi something like 'MyClass.HOW.add_method( ... )' adds method to class. Is a way to add subroutines to module or package ?
20:59 Woodi or MOP is reserved only for OO ? :)
21:00 sorear Woodi: subroutines aren't actually members of modules or packages
21:00 Woodi no ?
21:00 sorear Woodi: by subroutines exist in the lexical scope which cannot be touched at runtime
21:00 sorear if you are talking about 'our' subroutines, those exist in MyModule.WHO
21:00 sorear not HOW
21:01 Woodi sorear: I look for way to add 50 - 100 nearly identical subs in loop and no idea how to do it
21:01 sorear niecza: package Foo { }; Foo.WHO<&mysub> = sub ($x) { say "got $x" };  Foo::mysub(25)
21:01 p6eval niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«got 25␤»
21:01 sorear Woodi: I don't think there is a good way.  I've faced the same problem
21:02 sorear in my last example, the Foo:: is _required_
21:02 Woodi so Perl6 syntax is Module.WHO<^name> = sub (...) {...} ?
21:02 diakopter Woodi: why not store the subs in a hash?
21:03 sorear Woodi: Where did you get the ^ from?
21:03 Woodi probably from #perl6 and it work on rakudo atm :)
21:04 Woodi diakopter: must think a while about that...
21:04 Woodi but I was looking for official method :)
21:05 colomon nom: my $z = 0; say $z * z -.1 + .7i
21:05 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&z' called (line 1)␤»
21:05 sorear colomon: I'm looking for a proof, or at least a convincing argument , that z_0 + dz \in M iff z_1 + B*dz \in M  with |M| >> 1 for many possible values of z_0
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21:06 colomon nom: my $z = 0; say $z * $z -.1 + .7i
21:06 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«-0.1 + 0.7i␤»
21:06 colomon nom: my $z = -.1 + .7i; say $z * $z -.1 + .7i
21:06 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«-0.58 + 0.56i␤»
21:07 colomon nom
21:07 colomon ;
21:08 colomon nom: my $c = -.1 + .7i; my @m := 0, -> $z { $z * $z + $c } ... *; say @m[^10]
21:08 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«0 -0.1 + 0.7i -0.58 + 0.56i -0.0772 + 0.0504000000000001i -0.09658032 + 0.69221824i -0.569838333577395 + 0.566290681741926i -0.0959694098134729 + 0.0546117231915473i -0.0937723126900039 + 0.689517890312821i -0.566641674434211 + 0.570684625568469i -0.104598154654616 + …
21:08 colomon nom: my $c = -.1 + .7i; my @m := 0, -> $z { $z * $z + $c } ... *; say @m[^10].perl
21:08 p6eval nom 676b35: OUTPUT«(0, Complex.new(-0.1, 0.7), Complex.new(-0.58, 0.56), Complex.new(-0.0772, 0.0504000000000001), Complex.new(-0.09658032, 0.69221824), Complex.new(-0.569838333577395, 0.566290681741926), Complex.new(-0.0959694098134729, 0.0546117231915473), Complex.new(-0.0937723126900…
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21:16 cognominal___ is llvm the defaut for niecza?
21:19 sorear n/a
21:19 sorear llvm is not the default for mono
21:20 sorear it's not even compiled in by default
21:20 sorear ime mono --llvm runs Niecza worse than mono does
21:21 sorear llvm imposes a fairly significant penalty when you have 5MB of bytecode
21:21 sorear like 30 seconds
21:21 sorear and mono --llvm --aot does not seem to work
21:22 Woodi oops, I am sleepy, can't read&think properly... s/\^/\$/  And add_method work in Rakudo
21:23 cognominal___ I have not checked llvm  yet but reading a news about llvm 3, I was curious.
21:23 Woodi sorear: you say you want threaded interpreter, any specific plans ?
21:24 cognominal___ *checked niecza
21:24 sorear Woodi: I do not understand the question
21:25 Woodi do you have isea how you would like to implement this ?
21:25 Woodi idea
21:26 cognominal___ sorear, so mono is more adapted than llvm for a dynamic language?
21:28 sorear Woodi: I still do not understant.  What is a threaded interpreter?
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21:29 sorear cognominal: that's an awkward question because "dynamic language" is a poorly defined concept
21:29 Woodi ok, I must find source of what i think i read in backlog...
21:30 sorear cognominal: I would say that Mono's bundled JIT compiler (which is called "mini" for historical reasons) makes very different compilation speed/code quality tradeoffs from LLVM
21:31 sorear colomon: it just occurred to me that I'm not limited to _one_ worker thread.  Got a multi-logical-CPU system?
21:31 colomon I've got 4 cores, if that's what you mean
21:32 * sorear was trying to talk about the multicore and multi-real-CPU cases generically
21:33 colomon fair enough.
21:34 sorear colomon: is there any particular reason you have both &mandel and &julia?
21:35 colomon sorear: habit.  obviously mandel is just julia with the initial value of 0.
21:35 colomon DRY violation, but I haven't really cleaned up this code yet.
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21:42 colomon I think the bigger question here is, why do I call it $upper-right when it is actually $upper-left?  (might have something to do with the fact the set is rotated in the other p6 versions)
21:44 sorear wow, I seem to be actually using a double-linked list
21:46 colomon what for?
21:46 sorear work queue
21:46 colomon thread work queue?
21:46 sorear yes
21:46 sorear I need something like an array with shift, push, and remove-from-middle
21:47 colomon double-linked list ftw
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21:48 sorear hrm, on second thought it might be more elegant to just have a cancelled flag
21:48 colomon are you hacking on gtk-mandelbrot, or is this stuff internal to niecza?
21:48 sorear gtk-mandelbrot
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21:58 sorear colomon: does CLR::System::Environment.ProcessorCount return anything useful?
21:58 sorear for you
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22:02 colomon it says 8
22:03 sorear huh.  two quad-cores?
22:03 sorear or hyperthreading?
22:04 colomon hyperthreading, I guess
22:04 colomon unless Apple forgot to charge me for an extra quad core processor!
22:04 fsergot hi o/
22:04 colomon Number of Processors:1
22:04 colomon Total Number of Cores:4
22:06 * jnthn has seen a quadcore + HT show up as 8 in various cases before
22:06 colomon jnthn!  fsergot!  o/
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22:07 jnthn o/
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22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: b238ce4 | jnthn++ | src/core/ (3 files):
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Give Positional/Associative/Callable type parameters.
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b238ce4558
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 2344572 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump to latest NQP.
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2344572272
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 7a8679d | jnthn++ | src/ (5 files):
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Generalize type parameterization. T[...] now calls T.^parameterize(...), and ParametricRoleGroupHOW gets to decide about CurriedRoleHOW, which is now an implementation details.
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7a8679dcb8
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 823b1fa | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ClassHOW.pm:
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Stub in an implementation of ClassHOW.parameterize.
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/823b1fa3d7
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 3c6b5e5 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix a bug in generic instantiation of parameters; the container descriptor also needs to be instantiated.
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3c6b5e5b3f
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 80669d0 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Make SomeTypeObj but ARole just give you back a new type object representing the original type plus the role mxied in. Explicitly forbid this for does, since you can't change a type object in place.
22:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/80669d0711
22:15 * sorear writes for ^(%*ENV<THREADS> // CLR::System::Environment.ProcessorCount) { ...
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22:28 colomon sorear: I'm going to be on and off for the next few hours, till the big ten championship game settles in.  I've given you a mandlebrot commitbit, and I'm very interested in what you are up to.  :)
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23:19 japhb sorear, in case you did not already find it -- I think Woodi was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threaded_code .
23:19 phenny japhb: 12:44Z <jnthn> tell japhb Well, next week I'll be teaching an advanced C# course. I teach various others. :)
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23:19 * japhb chuckles that someone who teaches advanced C# chooses to hack on the *other* major compiler.
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23:23 jnthn It's good to maintain a balance of programming langauges in ones life. :)
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23:24 japhb jnthn, true -- a balance I have neglected of late, sad to say.
23:24 sorear japhb: jnthn has been a Rakudo bigshot since before I joined this channel
23:25 japhb sorear, I assumed as much.  It just strikes my funny bone is all.  ;-)
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23:27 * jnthn thought he'd "just implement junctions" :)
23:29 japhb Seems like I've heard that sort of thinking before ...  ;-)
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23:35 japhb perl6: 1.23bad
23:35 p6eval niecza v12-2-geb42dfa: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Whitespace is required between alphanumeric tokens at /tmp/0jqnWhztni line 1:�------> [32m1.23[33m�[31mbad[0m��Two terms in a row at /tmp/0jqnWhztni line 1:�------> [32m1.23[33m�[31mbad[0m��Parse failed��»…
23:35 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "bad"␤    expecting exponent, term postfix or operator␤    at /tmp/E3pnncBmZJ line 1, column 5␤»
23:35 p6eval ..rakudo 80669d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "1.23bad"␤»
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