Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-01-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:17 gfldex ohh, nice shiny colours
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00:18 gfldex that must be a perl fireworks!
00:20 lichtkind perl 6 tablets index A  approaching 670 entries
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01:12 kshannon Does anyone know the callchain from a sixmodelobject VTABLE_can to find_method?
01:14 dalek niecza: b5d9d05 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
01:14 dalek niecza: Allow defining multi-subs with inlining annotations
01:14 dalek niecza:
01:14 dalek niecza: The inline primitive form will be used for calls to the base function.
01:14 dalek niecza: If it is augmented, multi-dispatch will be used.
01:14 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b5d9d05131
01:14 dalek niecza: 5dd6ed3 | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
01:14 dalek niecza: Avoid creating a dispatcher for single-candidate multis that are marked as primitives
01:14 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/5dd6ed3ae2
01:15 TimToady perl6: constant @primes = 2, 3, -> $n is copy { repeat { $n += 2 } until $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt $n; $n; } ... *; say @primes[^109];
01:15 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "@primes"␤    expecting "=", "::", context, ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/n393IaNIAb line 1, column 10␤»
01:15 p6eval ..niecza v13-36-g6406010: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139 149 151 157 163 167 173 179 181 191 193 197 199 211 223 227 229 233 239 241 251 257 263 269 271 277 281 283 293 307 311 313 317 331 337 347 349 353 3…
01:15 p6eval ..rakudo 2b6f86: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable @primes is not predeclared at line 1, near " ... * > s"␤»
01:19 kshannon How on earth does the parrot VTABLE 'can' entry get set for sixmodel objects?!?!  grep doesn't seem to be my friend today :(
01:20 sorear kshannon: nqp::src/pmc/sixmodelobject.pmc line 96
01:23 sorear kshannon: also, parrot::src/pmc/object.pmc line 668
01:24 sorear any questions?
01:24 kshannon just found the object.pmc one.
01:26 kshannon OK.  Because sixmodel throws an exception if find_method fails,  it needs a custom can which can trap them.
01:27 kshannon That's the main reason for the --target=past dumping dying now.
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01:52 [Coke] kshannon++
01:55 TimToady niecza: constant @primes = 2, 3, { ($_ + 2, $_ + 4 ... *).first: -> $n { $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt($n); } } ... *; say @primes[^109];
01:55 p6eval niecza v13-36-g6406010: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139 149 151 157 163 167 173 179 181 191 193 197 199 211 223 227 229 233 239 241 251 257 263 269 271 277 281 283 293 307 311 313 317 331 337 347 349 353 3…
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02:27 kshannon leto++ for not just taking my pull request to parrot and making me find the real problem
02:28 kshannon https://github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/25
02:31 sorear where's leto's comment?
02:31 sorear leto-- dukeleto++ # correct name
02:31 kshannon On the parrot pull reuest.
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02:33 sorear kshannon: find_method should return null on error, I am pretty sure
02:33 sorear your 'can' change is a bad fix because it won't make find_method_null_ok work
02:34 kshannon so you think the catch should be in the find_method VTABLE ?
02:34 kshannon That's pretty simple to change...
02:35 sorear actually I think you should find whatever code is throwing the exception and fix it to return null instead
02:36 [Coke] https://gist.github.com/1476841 - niecza at 86% (still getting a percentage point a day, even on winter break. ;)
02:38 kshannon But that's part of the sixmodel API as I understand it. the 6model find_method can be called in other ways than through the VTABLE
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02:54 kshannon Well, I've pushed a new version doing the catching in VTABLE find_method.  I think that's the right place as the comment in the top of the file says "it maps the Parrot world view to the Perl 6 object model one"
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05:00 slavik1 Happy New Year!
05:00 Timbus TimToady, odd, i was in a channel yesterday where we sparked a discussion about making a lazy prime sieve in perl6 (vs haskell)
05:01 Timbus and all my self referential solutions were not so good
05:01 Timbus also, happy new year slavik1
05:01 Timbus :>
05:02 Timbus more oddly my solution is almost word for word the same as yours, except i used while $n %% all @primes
05:02 Timbus heh
05:14 Timbus niecza: constant @primes = 2, 3, -> $n is copy { my $ff=1; repeat { $n += 2 + ($ff=!$ff)*2 } until $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt $n; $n; } ... *; say @primes[^10];
05:14 p6eval niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 13 19 31 37 43 61␤»
05:14 Timbus bah
05:17 Timbus niecza: my $ff=1; constant @primes = 2, 3, -> $n is copy { repeat { $n += 2 + ($ff=!$ff)*2 } until $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt $n; $n; } ... *; say @primes[^10];
05:17 p6eval niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«2 3 5 11 17 23 29 41 47 53␤»
05:17 Timbus feels bad, man
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05:27 Timbus oh. pffpfpt. you start the pattern from 5, not 3. im dumb. my brain works so much better after a grilled cheese sandwich
05:28 Timbus niecza: my $ff=1; constant @primes = 2, 3, 5 -> $n is copy { repeat { $n += 2 + ($ff=!$ff)*2 } until $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt $n; $n; } ... *; say @primes[^10];
05:28 p6eval niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unexpected block in infix position (two terms in a row, or previous statement missing semicolon?) at /tmp/iUrLUslcWM line 1:�------> [32mmy $ff=1; constant @primes = 2, 3, 5 [33m�[31m-> $n is copy { repeat { $n += 2 + ($f…
05:28 Timbus niecza: my $ff=1; constant @primes = 2, 3, 5, -> $n is copy { repeat { $n += 2 + ($ff=!$ff)*2 } until $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt $n; $n; } ... *; say @primes[^10];
05:28 p6eval niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29␤»
05:28 Timbus if perls so smart whycome it cant insert my commas for me
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06:05 geekosaur sometimes it could.  mostly that error message is "psst, this isn't perl5"
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07:05 moritz \o
07:07 kshannon o/
07:08 moritz kshannon: I've given you commit access to roast and other repositories under the perl6 organization
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07:36 moritz fwiw my blog post from yesterday got about 4.5k visitors. Thanks to everybody who proof-read or promoted it!
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07:50 kshannon thanks moritz.
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07:55 dalek roast: abcbbb9 | (Kris Shannon)++ | integration/99problems-01-to-10.t:
07:55 dalek roast: Fix typo
07:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/abcbbb9b40
07:55 dalek roast: 1449cac | (Kris Shannon)++ | integration/99problems-01-to-10.t:
07:55 dalek roast: Missed one when doing compare sensitive to array nesting level
07:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1449cacbd6
07:55 dalek roast: 041da7e | (Kris Shannon)++ | integration/99problems-01-to-10.t:
07:55 dalek roast: Merge pull request #13 from KrisShannon/integration-01-fixes
07:55 dalek roast:
07:55 dalek roast: Some small cleanups and logic fixes in integration/99problems-01-to-10.t
07:55 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/041da7e620
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08:09 moritz kshannon: fwiw Array vs. List has nothing to do with lazyness
08:10 moritz perl6: my $a = [ 1 ... * ]; say "alive";
08:10 p6eval rakudo 2b6f86: OUTPUT«alive␤»
08:10 p6eval ..niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«(timeout)Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/XRyGuMtpg_ line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m$a = [ 1 ... * ]; say "alive";[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
08:10 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "$a"␤    expecting "=", context, ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/N2C54iRIYK line 1, column 4␤»
08:11 moritz niecza: my $a = (1 ... *); say "alive";
08:11 p6eval niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/r6BvZFbL0z line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m$a = (1 ... *); say "alive";[0mâ�¤â�¤aliveâ�¤Â»
08:11 moritz so niecza agrees that circumfix:<[ ]> is eager. Interesting.
08:11 sorear "agrees"?
08:11 dalek niecza: 2580531 | sorear++ | lib/ (9 files):
08:11 dalek niecza: Rearrange binding process to bind signatures after lexpad setup; (fixes #19)
08:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/2580531e73
08:14 sorear mm, 11 issues.
08:14 sorear if diakopter returns I'll ask him to check if his .net issues still exist... I think I fixed the causes of most of them
08:15 sorear could get to single-digit open issues easily enough I think :)
08:15 * sorear wonders who ebassi is and if ey will attempt to send any of eir bootstrap changes upstream
08:24 moritz sorear: agrees with a rakudo patch by kshannon++
08:31 moritz sorear: was it a conscious decision to make circumfix:<[ ]> eager? or did it Just Happen?
08:33 moritz niecza: my Int:D $x = 3; $x = Int; say 'alive'
08:33 p6eval niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«alive␤»
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08:36 sorear moritz: concious, but it was a path of least resistance
08:36 sorear [ ] needs to recontainerize all the list elements, and it was simpler to do that as a loop than a lazy map
08:38 * sorear -> sleep
08:47 kshannon There's also the fact that lots of gather/take example code I've found only works if [ ] is eager (including the current tests)
08:47 kshannon That could be just becuase rakudo-ng worked that way...
08:50 kshannon Point number 3 it bypasses the current issues rakudo has with source lists that are re-assigned after partial iteration
08:51 kshannon Still trying to wrap my head around that quagmire...
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09:03 kshannon perl6: my $a = [ gather { for ^5 { .say; take $_; } } ]; say " MIDDLE "; say +@($a);
09:03 p6eval rakudo 2b6f86: OUTPUT« MIDDLE ␤0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤»
09:03 p6eval ..pugs b927740, niecza v13-38-g5dd6ed3: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤ MIDDLE ␤5␤»
09:04 kshannon b: my $a = [ gather { for ^5 { .say; take $_; } } ]; say " MIDDLE "; say +@($a);
09:04 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤ MIDDLE ␤5␤»
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09:14 moritz ah well, I guess I'm fine with eager [ ] for now
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09:56 grondilu perl6: constant X = <foo bar>;
09:56 p6eval niecza v13-39-g2580531:  ( no output )
09:56 p6eval ..rakudo 2b6f86: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot handle constant X with non-literal value yet at line 1, near "= <foo bar"␤»
09:56 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "="␤    expecting ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/so0MueVvhF line 1, column 12␤»
09:56 grondilu I thought <foo bar> was a literal value :(
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11:40 masak good morning, #perl6
11:40 masak ...fsvo morning...
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11:59 cedric Bonjour #perl6!
12:00 cedric o/ masak
12:00 masak \o
12:01 cedric Context: libparrot.so.3.11.0:utf8_iter_skip() is the function that consumes the most CPU time when running "perl6 S03-operators/basic-types.t" (an arbitrary example).  It appears that this function is called many times against the same C strings (c.f. experiment http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-12-31#i_4904989).
12:01 cedric I had a look at utf8_iter_skip()'s backtraces and found out a repetitive pattern (more than 75000 times with the given example): "... -> runops_fast_core -> Parrot_substr_s_… -> encoding_substr -> utf8_iter_skip".  I'm a bit surprise to see that the "substr_s_…" opcodes are called so often, more specifically on the same C strings.
12:03 masak cedric: sounds like you're onto something there.
12:04 masak cedric: I really hopes this leads to a significant speedup in the end.
12:04 masak 24 people have now signed up for p6cc! \o/
12:05 masak 24. that's 4! == [*] 1..4 == 1 * 2 * 3 * 4.
12:06 cedric masak: I hope too. I would like to report this strange behaviour to the right guys, I don't have time to investigate more.
12:08 cedric masak: who are the "right guys"?
12:08 masak cedric: well, let mention it to the #parrot people on irc.perl.org.
12:09 masak see what they have to say.
12:09 masak most of them are in the US, so it may be a few hours before they wake up and respond.
12:10 cedric OK, thanks. I will report that in a coulple of hours :)
12:10 masak I just mentioned it on the #parrot channel.
12:11 cedric Thanks!
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12:20 masak by the way, I've now perused http://www.keithschwarz.com/darts-dice-coins/
12:20 masak it is indeed inspiring.
12:20 colomon ;)
12:21 masak however, I don't see how it's applicable to what I believe is the main issue for .pick -- namely how to avoid duplicates in a performant way.
12:24 masak .pick and .roll for Bags will probably benefit from an Alias method implementation, though.
12:44 colomon dang it, niecza's spectest is completely hosed at the moment
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12:50 masak :/
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14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: b70b105 | (Kris Shannon)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix take over-flattening
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom:
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: circumfix:<[ ]> needs to be made eager as well.  This
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: seems to match the wording of the spec (it's an Array,
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: not a List) and doesn't introduce any regressions in
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: roast.
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom:
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixes RT#101316 and RT#106986
14:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b70b1050ef
14:14 * moritz forgot to add the Signed-Off-By line, again :/
14:14 moritz moritz--
14:14 moritz kshannon++
14:14 moritz kshannon: in your next rakudo patch, please add yourself to CREDITS
14:17 masak hola, moritz
14:17 moritz \o masak
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14:26 dalek roast: d888c1c | moritz++ | / (4 files):
14:26 dalek roast: rakudo unfudges
14:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d888c1ce2c
14:29 dalek evalbot: a875194 | (Kris Shannon)++ | lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm:
14:29 dalek evalbot: Also allow executing from files in projects on github
14:29 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/a875194253
14:29 dalek evalbot: 7d4b9b0 | moritz++ | lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm:
14:29 dalek evalbot: Merge pull request #1 from KrisShannon/patch-1
14:29 dalek evalbot:
14:29 dalek evalbot: Also allow executing from files in projects on github
14:29 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/7d4b9b0177
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14:44 dalek roast: 2e37eb9 | moritz++ | / (4 files):
14:44 dalek roast: more rakudo unfudges
14:44 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2e37eb9104
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15:36 x3nU okay, so now i'm trying to build latest rakudo under windows using msvc 2010
15:36 x3nU hope it will compile fine
15:36 masak we hope so too :)
15:40 Trashlord joined #perl6
15:41 masak Trashlord! \o/
15:42 Trashlord hey masak :)
15:42 masak Trashlord: how's 2012 treating you? :)
15:43 Trashlord so far so good, and yourself?
15:43 masak very excited about the new year. :)
15:44 masak 2010 was very nice, 2011 was even better, so 2012 will probably be wonderful.
15:47 Trashlord I sure hope so
15:48 x3nU 2012 will be last year of our world :(
15:51 Trashlord heh
15:51 Trashlord I don't believe the world will be physically destroyed
15:51 Trashlord I believe, and hope, that this "civilization" will collapse
15:51 Trashlord and all humans will achieve greater conciousness
15:52 Trashlord and march onwards into the new world, the new society, with no governments, no religion, no countries, and no money
15:52 Trashlord only love and respect towards everyone
15:52 x3nU or maybe perl 6 will take over the universe
15:52 Trashlord perhaps
15:52 Trashlord we'll have to wait and see
15:53 masak I don't hope that western civilization will collapse. but that seems to be where we're heading.
15:53 x3nU damn
15:53 masak I do hope, to the extent that it is inevitable, that it takes 90 years and not 5.
15:53 x3nU compilation of rakudo just crashed ;_;
15:54 masak x3nU: could you nopaste the error mesasges?
15:54 masak were there any error messages?
15:54 masak x3nU: I *think* jnthn is useing some msvc or other to compile Rakudo.
15:55 x3nU http://pastebin.com/vnJy7JjP
15:55 x3nU it seems
15:55 x3nU that nqp crashed
15:55 x3nU there was no error message or something
15:55 x3nU just "application nqp.exe stopped working" or something like that
15:57 masak :(
15:58 x3nU so it seems that i need to try building using mingw
16:00 masak x3nU: you should definitely bring this up with jnthn++ when he gets back. he will know more.
16:02 x3nU okay
16:11 [Coke] uhoh, moritz is unfudging for rakudo.
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: a7fd89e | masak++ | / (8 files):
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: [TypePretence -> TypePretense]
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom:
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: "Pretence" is common in British spelling, whereas the rest of the
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: code base is written in squeaky-clean International (that is,
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: US) English. Clearly the original spelling was a case of larger
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: guerrilla spelling campaign by our resident .uk core programmer. ;-)
16:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a7fd89ea7f
16:14 masak for more information about guerrilla spelling campaigns, see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wik​i/Guerilla_spelling_campaigns
16:14 tadzik happy new year #perl6!
16:15 masak Year.new(:happy)
16:16 x3nU i'm not sure if american english is international english
16:16 tadzik Year.new.happify
16:16 x3nU in european countries people are taught british english, not american
16:17 hundskatt joined #perl6
16:17 tadzik woot, 19/20 from OS exam
16:18 masak tadzik++
16:18 tadzik that's a good start for 2012
16:20 masak indeed.
16:20 [Coke] good job!
16:20 tadzik wow, mailbox' full of good news. Have you seen the recent booking.com donation?
16:21 colomon tadzik: what's the story?
16:21 tadzik colomon: what story?
16:21 colomon booking.com donation
16:21 tadzik http://news.perlfoundation.org/2012/0​1/bookingcom-sponsors-100000-to.html
16:22 masak \o/
16:22 tadzik those guys know how to party
16:22 x3nU wow
16:22 tadzik booking++
16:24 colomon booking++
16:26 masak if I hadn't been hastily and summarily employed (and subsequently very happy where I am), Id probably have applied for a job at booking.com by now.
16:26 masak I'd*
16:27 tadzik I'm tempted every semester :)
16:28 * masak grabs one of tadzik's legs and drags him towards Sweden :)
16:28 tadzik yeah, I remember about you too :)
16:28 masak which would you rather have, ~30 skilled Perl developers, or jnthn and me? :P
16:28 tadzik I'm thinking about taking a year off after this semester (ends in february), as that's when the first stage of my studies ends
16:29 tadzik but I'm afraid that once I take a break I'll never want to go back :P
16:29 masak I'll get right on deflating my head now.
16:29 tadzik huh, what? :)
16:29 masak tadzik: yeah, taking a break to go find a job is a recipe for never finishing your studies.
16:29 tadzik yeah, I suppose so
16:30 fsergot joined #perl6
16:30 tadzik and I'll find myself sitting in a chair with a pipe and a dog besides me legs and wondering why did I never achieve the dream from my childhood :)
16:30 fsergot o/
16:30 tadzik o/
16:30 x3nU \o
16:30 tadzik happy new years' fsergot!
16:30 cspencer joined #perl6
16:30 masak tadzik: yeah, wouldn't want to take your childhood dream from you :)
16:31 fsergot thanks, You too :)
16:31 masak fsergot! \o/
16:31 tadzik fsergot: about Bailador: I got templates to work, but I keep that in a branch as it still ignites segfaults from time to time
16:31 tadzik I'll merge all those new features as soon as we get that fixed
16:31 cspencer hello everyone!
16:31 tadzik hey cspencer! Happy new year!
16:32 cspencer question about the zip operators - are they currently able to produce lazy lists?  my code would seem to indicate they are not, unless i'm doing something incorrectly :)
16:32 cspencer tadzik: happy new year to you as well!
16:32 colomon cspencer: they are!
16:32 masak cspencer! \o/
16:33 fsergot masak: tonight i thought of how to make task 1 in p6 contest! :)
16:33 colomon nom: my @a := 'a'..'z' Z~ 1..*; say @a[^10]
16:33 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«a1 b2 c3 d4 e5 f6 g7 h8 i9 j10␤»
16:33 masak fsergot: and you still haven't signed up? crazy!
16:33 masak nom: role R { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; enum A does R <a b c>; a.foo
16:33 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
16:33 masak enums do roles. wow.
16:33 cspencer colomon: ah, perhaps on on the wrong branch then
16:33 cspencer is that only in the nom branch?
16:34 fsergot masak: where can i do sign up? :)
16:34 fsergot s/do//
16:34 masak fsergot: email cmasak@gmail.com saying "Sign me up!"
16:34 colomon cspencer: that should work in any current p6
16:34 colomon cspencer: well, I can't speak for perlito
16:34 colomon perl6: my @a := 'a'..'z' Z~ 1..*; say @a[^10]
16:34 fsergot masak: ok! :) thanks
16:34 p6eval rakudo a7fd89, niecza v13-39-g2580531: OUTPUT«a1 b2 c3 d4 e5 f6 g7 h8 i9 j10␤»
16:34 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«abcdefghij␤»
16:34 masak pugs--
16:35 colomon masak: go easy on it, last time it was developed the Z metaop wasn't around yet
16:35 kaare__ joined #perl6
16:35 masak colomon: oh! right!
16:36 masak colomon: so easy to forget these things ;)
16:36 masak nom: enum E <a b c>; class C does E {}; say "alive"
16:36 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot yet turn an enum into a role␤»
16:36 masak cannot... yet... :)
16:36 * colomon is not likely to forget the day Zop was invented... :)
16:37 cspencer here's the code i'd being trying to use: for zip(1..*;1..*) -> $a, $b { say "a = $a, b = $b" }
16:37 masak colomon: how so?
16:37 colomon cspencer: your problem there is the "for"
16:37 cspencer i figured as much
16:37 cspencer it doesn't flatten the list, does it?
16:37 x3nU last pugs version is from 2011-10-08 if i understand correctly, not that bad
16:38 masak x3nU: yes, but those are releases on essentially the same source code, from mid-2007.
16:38 x3nU masak: so what's the point of these releases?
16:38 masak x3nU: upgrading to latest GHC.
16:38 colomon masak: I watched (on #perl6) TimToady come up with the idea, and then a) told him it was a keeper and b) implemented the first version in Rakudo myself right then.  :)
16:38 masak \o/
16:38 masak colomon++
16:39 masak colomon: yeah, it's strange that we had Xop for so long without realizing that Zop was right next door. :)
16:41 colomon masak: if you're not thinking of lazy lists, Zop is just >>op<<
16:41 colomon masak: but if you are thinking of lazy lists, Zop is awesome
16:41 masak aye.
16:41 cspencer is there a way to get the for loop to evaluate the list lazily?
16:42 masak colomon: they optimize for two things we care about: parallelism and laziness, respectively.
16:42 colomon cspencer: I don't understand exactly what's going on, but my impression is nom's "for" is only lazy if it knows for sure that the list is infinite.  so for 1..* -> $a { } works, but more complicated things don't
16:42 cspencer ah, ok.
16:42 masak colomon: pmichaud has a term for that.
16:43 masak colomon: something like "obviously finite" or "proven finite" or something.
16:43 masak it's that kind of gray-area solution that often gets us out of Halting Problem jail for free.
16:44 cspencer so would this be categorized as a "yet to be implemented feature"? :)
16:46 colomon cspencer: charitably speaking, yes.  :)
16:48 colomon niecza: for 1..* Z 1..* -> $a, $b { say "a = $a, b = $b" }
16:48 p6eval niecza v13-39-g2580531: OUTPUT«(timeout)a = 1, b = 1␤a = 2, b = 2␤a = 3, b = 3␤a = 4, b = 4␤a = 5, b = 5␤a = 6, b = 6␤a = 7, b = 7␤a = 8, b = 8␤a = 9, b = 9␤a = 10, b = 10␤a = 11, b = 11␤a = 12, b = 12␤a = 13, b = 13␤a = 14, b = 14␤a = 15, b = 15␤a = 16, b = 16␤a = 17, b = 17␤a = 18, b …
16:48 colomon cspencer: it does work in niecza
16:48 colomon b: for 1..* Z 1..* -> $a, $b { say "a = $a, b = $b" }
16:48 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«(timeout)a = 1, b = 1␤a = 2, b = 2␤a = 3, b = 3␤a = 4, b = 4␤a = 5, b = 5␤a = 6, b = 6␤a = 7, b = 7␤a = 8, b = 8␤a = 9, b = 9␤a = 10, b = 10␤a = 11, b = 11␤a = 12, b = 12␤a = 13, b = 13␤a = 14, b = 14␤a = 15, b = 15␤a = 16, b = 16␤a = 17, b = 17␤a = 18, b = 18␤a = 19, b…
16:48 colomon and b
16:49 colomon and map probably works as a workaround in nom
16:49 cspencer colomon: what's b?  i'm not familiar with that one..
16:49 masak old branch.
16:49 benabik cspencer: Rakudo before the most recent re-write.
16:49 masak sometimes we take Rakudo and throw it away because we thought of a better way to implement it :P
16:50 cspencer hmmm...i thought i'd been running on the old branch, but hadn't been getting any output
16:50 cspencer i'll check again or find a work around
16:50 cspencer thanks for the help!
16:57 masak ooh, SymbolTable is called World now! \o/
16:57 masak you're welcome :D
16:58 masak I'm currently investigating OMeta's concept of World...
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17:08 masak yass5: \o
17:09 yass5 masak: o/
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17:16 masak nom: sub initial($_) { .substr(0, 1) }; say "yet another static scalar".words.map({ initial($_) }), 5
17:16 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«y a s s5␤»
17:16 masak pfft :)
17:16 masak nom: sub initial($_) { .substr(0, 1) }; say "yet another static scalar".words.map({ initial($_) }).join, 5
17:16 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«yass5␤»
17:16 masak \o/
17:19 moritz nom: sub initial($_) { .substr(0, 1) }; say "yet another static scalar".words>>.&initial.join, 5
17:19 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«yass5␤»
17:20 moritz nom: sub initial($_) { .substr(0, 1) }; say "yet another static scalar".words.mpa(&initial).join, 5
17:20 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Method 'mpa' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/_ioG2OznRn:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/_ioG2OznRn:1␤»
17:20 moritz nom: sub initial($_) { .substr(0, 1) }; say "yet another static scalar".words.map(&initial).join, 5
17:20 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«yass5␤»
17:20 moritz masak: map { foo($_) }   is nearly always an anti-pattern
17:21 moritz and map &foo  can usually be used instead
17:21 masak ooh, indeed.
17:21 masak nom: sub initial($_) { .substr(0, 1) }; say "yet another static scalar".words.map(&initial).join, 5
17:21 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«yass5␤»
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17:29 masak could someone help me understand the role perl6_capture_lex plays in Actions.pm ?
17:30 masak it's used in exactly two places, the sub block_closure, and the method quote_escape:sym<{ }>
17:31 masak it's defined last in src/ops/perl6.ops, and doesn't look like it's doing very much.
17:36 masak sorear++ # http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-12-10#i_4814872 -- that's the attitude to regressions that Rakudo needs as well, even across big rewrites
17:40 * masak smiles at "Plain, Old Documentation" in the backlog
17:44 moritz Call for Papers for the German perl Workshop 2012 in Erlange (March 5-7) ends today
17:44 moritz I hope to extend the deadline for a week, but not sure it'll work
17:46 benabik Took a couple times to not read that as "Perl in Erlang Workshop"
17:49 kaare__ joined #perl6
17:51 moritz erm, sorry, the town is called "Erlangen"
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17:56 masak phenny: de en "Erlange"?
17:56 phenny masak: "Achieve" (de to en, translate.google.com)
17:56 masak phenny: de en "Erlangen"?
17:56 phenny masak: "gain" (de to en, translate.google.com)
17:56 cognominal happy new year to the perl sixers.
17:59 masak nom: class Year { has @.d; method description { @.d.sort.ucfirst ~ " " ~ self.^name ~ "!" } }; say Year.new(:d(<new happy>)).description
17:59 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Happy new Year!␤»
18:00 masak \o/
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18:11 colomon benabik: are you volunteering to implement p6 in Erlang?  ;)
18:11 moritz phenny: de en "Erlen am Hang"
18:11 moritz phenny: de en "Erlen am Hang"?
18:11 phenny moritz: "Alder on slopes" (de to en, translate.google.com)
18:12 moritz that's the origin of the name "Erlangen"
18:13 x3nU mine snails looks so cute <3
18:13 benabik colomon: In my copious spare time?  :-D
18:13 colomon benabik: exactly!
18:15 x3nU creating perl6 implementation in HQ9+ would be a big step forward
18:15 tadzik hah
18:15 colomon HQ9+?
18:16 x3nU http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ9%2B
18:16 x3nU there's no entry in english wiki
18:20 colomon okay, that's awesome
18:21 colomon Though the + seems somewhat unneeded.
18:22 tadzik it's an evolution of the HQ9 language
18:23 masak I'm waiting till HQ9++ is released.
18:24 benabik masak: http://www.dangermouse.net​/esoteric/hq9plusplus.html
18:27 masak well, there you go then.
18:27 masak now, I have two choices.
18:27 masak either I could reject reality and redefined "released" in such a way that I still have a reason not to try the new language. this is clearly less work for me.
18:28 masak or I could admit that HQ9++ actually exists, go ahead and try it, and then give my honest appraisal of it. that sounds really hard.
18:29 masak so... by "released", I obviously meant "when enough people in my immediate vicinity talk about it".
18:33 masak ...obviously.
18:38 x3nU nqp configure.pl
18:38 x3nU is
18:38 x3nU horribly broken
18:39 raiph hi all
18:39 phenny raiph: 29 Dec 18:09Z <TimToady> tell raiph re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2011-12-18#i_4848275 I'd say 6model is not so much related to moose as it is to the Responder Interface stuff that nothingmuch++ was working on in the same timeframe, but representation polymorphism has been the p6 plan for ages
18:40 raiph s05: "A character class is now specified using <[...]>. See also "Extensible metasyntax". "
18:40 raiph the target of "Extens..." link doesn't exist
18:43 masak raiph: seems the heading has changed to '=head1 Extensible metasyntax (C<< <...> >>)'
18:43 masak hm. or not. that line is unchanged since the last repository move.
18:44 masak maybe the link never worked, then.
18:45 colomon "When the sequence ++ is encountered, it (naturally) increments the accumulator twice, and also instantiates an object of a new subclass of the generic superclass. In line with the best data-hiding principles, there is no way to access this object."  Wow.  It really IS a big improvement over HQ9+!
18:45 colomon still, it could really use meta operators....
18:45 benabik colomon: You should try to find HQP9+-
18:46 benabik colomon: What - does depends on what operators are before it.  :-D
18:46 colomon benabik++
18:48 masak ;)
18:48 colomon sorear: ping.  (or just try S32-trig/sin.t -- one of many failures in the spectest.)
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19:04 masak I'm doing a gist about macros and closures to try to make them clear to me.
19:06 masak I think I finally grok a thing that sorear++ told me: all ASTs are inserted into mainline code as *blocks*, and these blocks still retain their original OUTER.
19:06 masak this simplifies a lot, if true.
19:06 masak well, um, it makes the COMPILING case the exceptional case, I guess :)
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19:14 sayu c
19:16 masak c/
19:22 dalek roast: ba48d7b | Coke++ | S04-phasers/ (4 files):
19:22 dalek roast: niecza fudge
19:22 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ba48d7b69a
19:23 dalek niecza: b5d8efc | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
19:23 dalek niecza: run more tests (some fudged)
19:23 dalek niecza:
19:23 dalek niecza: S04-phasers/ascending-order.t
19:23 dalek niecza: S04-phasers/descending-order.t
19:23 dalek niecza: S04-phasers/init.t
19:23 dalek niecza: S04-phasers/multiple.t
19:23 dalek niecza: S04-phasers/rvalue.t
19:23 dalek niecza: S06-multi/positional-vs-named.t
19:23 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/b5d8efc54f
19:44 kshannon src/core/Any.pm: proto infix:<===>($?, $?) { * }
19:44 kshannon Ummm,  why optional?
19:44 moritz kshannon: because [===] reduction uses the nullary infix:<===>() candidate to provide the default value
19:44 moritz nom: say [===]()
19:44 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
19:44 moritz nom: say [*]()
19:45 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«1␤»
19:45 moritz nom: say [+]()
19:45 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«0␤»
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19:46 x3nU it's kinda sad that i found so many things broken when i'm trying to build rakudo
19:47 tadzik we can't help if you won't give us any info
19:47 kshannon OK,  then why a few lines down does infix:<cmp> not have an optional case?
19:47 x3nU tadzik: i'm not asking for help
19:47 tadzik alright
19:47 x3nU most problems are unrelated
19:47 x3nU to rakudo
19:47 x3nU for example
19:48 moritz sad indeed; we could use developers on windows who fix the build system
19:48 moritz nom: say [cmp]()
19:48 p6eval nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 2␤  in sub infix:<cmp> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1171␤  in sub <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:8605␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/2wnMryVQAI:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/2wnMryVQAI:1␤»
19:48 x3nU gmake in mingw-w64 uses non-existing command 'cc' in $(COMPILE.c)
19:48 moritz kshannon: an omission, I think
19:48 x3nU or configure.pl for nqp can only use nmake (that's easily fixable)
19:49 kshannon No,, thinking about it, [cmp]() can't really have a defined answer.
19:55 moritz ah right, it's not boolean, and thus not chainable either
19:56 moritz std: [cmp] ()
19:56 p6eval std dc62e1d: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Cannot reduce with cmp because structural infix operators are diffy and not chaining at /tmp/qlFthYUzoQ line 1:�------> [32m[cmp][33m�[31m ()[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 120m�»
19:56 moritz that's what rakudo should do :-)
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20:00 masak I've been writing up the state of the art of macro thinking here: https://gist.github.com/1548053
20:00 masak feedback welcome.
20:01 tadzik it's interesting :)
20:02 masak :)
20:03 masak it put into words something that I've known for a few months now, but not been able to express clearly.
20:03 masak the short version is "ASTs need to carry their environment around, and applying them means sometimes having to do nasty things"
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20:21 moritz "There's no corresponding mechanism for closures. Closures are too clean for that kind of thing." there is, it's called CALLER::
20:22 masak I see where you're coming from with that. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it "corresponding".
20:23 masak yes, the mainline code is in some sense the caller of the applied AST. but the traces of that relationship have intentionally been erased at the point we're running the code. for all intents and purposes, the code from the AST is *part* of the mainline code, not in a callee-caller relationship with it.
20:24 masak with closures, we're one stack frame down and CALLER is somewhere completely different. with macros, not so.
20:26 masak of course, the *macro* may use the CALLER namespace and access the (static) lexpads of the mainline code. but that's something different.
20:26 masak :-)
20:28 drbean joined #perl6
20:28 masak though maybe it's not so obvious that the CALLER there is the mainline code and not, say, the parser.
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20:34 sorear good * #perl6
20:35 masak sorear! \o/
20:39 sorear niecza: [cmp] ()
20:39 p6eval niecza v13-39-g2580531: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Cannot reduce with cmp because structural infix operators are diffy and not chaining at /tmp/crjEYKVV4H line 1:â�¤------> [32m[cmp][33mâ��[31m ()[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.…
20:40 sorear masak! \o/
20:41 masak \o/
20:41 sorear colomon: studying the S32-trig/sin.t regression now.
20:43 x3nU
20:43 x3nU oops
20:44 sorear colomon++ # "set nomodifiable"
20:45 moritz .oO( nom-odifiy-able )
20:45 sorear moritz: I wonder why nobody has commented on your retrospection itself.
20:46 moritz sorear: that's because people read "Perl 6" and immediately run off to discuss whether it's ready, promosing or doomed
20:46 masak without fail.
20:47 moritz I've seen that many times; basically each time I've written about Perl 6, and got at least moderate amounts of attention
20:47 masak and not too surprising; people discuss things from within their frame of reference, and outsiders' frame of reference is outside that of insiders.
20:48 moritz this frame-of-reference-mismatch is also why I haven't discussed more spec changes
20:48 masak if I saw a reddit thread about quantum computing, I wouldn't be able to comment more than to the effect of "so, when will I be able to use it?" or make a pun on entanglement somehow.
20:48 moritz TimToady++ suggested mentioning % in regexes, and I considered it too. But it doesn't really matter for an outsider
20:49 moritz outsiders don't understand its importance, scope or motivation; I could explain that, but it would take a complete blog post on its own
20:49 moritz masak: yes, but *you* would refrain from commenting at all :-)
20:50 moritz ...  if your only comment were something only slightly related
20:50 moritz s/were/was/
20:50 moritz where was my grammar? :-)
20:51 masak right, but that only means that there are a bunch of (if I may) sensible people whose comments we never see on reddit. :)
20:53 masak the only way to create positive discussion on a site like reddit is to change the default perception of Perl 6.
20:54 moritz for now I'm happy that enough people like to read it to upvote it
20:55 moritz and that some of the commenters ask questions (even if biased ones) instead of condemning Perl 6 outright
20:55 moritz anyway, time to sleep &
20:56 sorear I am getting the feeling I have deeply borked something in the binder here
20:56 fsergot joined #perl6
20:56 sorear sleep well moritz
20:57 masak dream of Reddit upvotes and HN praise :)
20:58 * sorear tries to golf a failing file, gets a completely different error!
21:00 sorear at least the compiler is having the decency to ignore comments this time
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21:32 dalek niecza: 92420ba | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
21:32 dalek niecza: When reusing allocated frames, clear the "this is only a bindability check" flag :D  colomon++
21:32 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/92420ba43c
21:32 sorear *phew*
21:42 colomon o/
21:43 masak \o
21:58 colomon oooo, the niecza spectest almost passes again
22:00 sorear what file(s) are still having issues?
22:00 colomon S06-advanced/callsame.t
22:00 colomon our todo there is now passing, but the previously passing tests are now failing
22:02 sorear the test which is "now passing" is very dubios
22:03 masak what is it?
22:03 sorear and I don't think either of them ever *should* have worked for niecza
22:03 sorear I'm willing to just remove the file from spectest.data
22:03 sorear masak: "callsame" in an only-sub with no outer dispatcher is supposed to live...wtf?
22:04 masak hmmm.
22:04 masak no, I agree. supporting that doesn't give much, and will probably only prevent optimizations.
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22:07 sorear I'm not _really_ sure what nextsame & co are supposed to do with multis anyway
22:07 sorear They work for methods because we specify a specific method resolution order
22:08 sorear but multis are mostly unordered
22:08 sorear maybe nextsame should be interpreted as "re-run MMD but ignore all candidates that have been invoked so far"
22:08 masak ...as opposed to?...
22:10 masak what I learned from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fre​e_variables_and_bound_variables : variables in a function whose lookup reaches outside of the function, are referred to as "free variables". in the case of a closure, free values are sometimes referred to as "upvalues".
22:13 drbean joined #perl6
22:17 sorear masak: do you still want to talk promotion?
22:17 masak also, the "funarg problem" basically says "if you want closures, you can't put all local variables on the stack".
22:18 masak sorear: yes, but I'm not sure how much help I'll be.
22:18 masak sorear: what do you want to talk about?
22:19 sorear I don't remember exactly; the two of us were going to discuss increasing Niecza's visibility, but then we kept missing each other
22:20 masak aye.
22:20 masak I also don't remember how that discussion started.
22:20 masak I remember you deliberating whether to get a blog or not.
22:21 masak my advice -- get one. if only because I personally want to read your blog posts :)
22:21 masak (but I also think it would be good for Niecza.)
22:21 masak Wordpress makes it very easy to start blogging.
22:21 masak wordpress.com, to be exact.
22:22 sorear mm.  I dunno what people would be interested in
22:22 tadzik I suppose "look what cool stuff niecza can do"
22:23 tadzik that'll interest me, at least
22:23 masak :)
22:23 tadzik I think that for reaching non-perl6 audience it'd be "look what cool stuff we did write"
22:24 tadzik just my 2zł
22:24 masak blogs "reach out" more than emails, or tweets, or IRC does.
22:24 masak mainly thanks to aggregation sites like Reddit and Slashdot and Hacker News.
22:25 masak I remember "playing" those sites much more back in 2009 -- writing things that were basically targeted for such audiences.
22:25 masak nowadays I mostly write what I want :P
22:28 sorear I have a certain bias towards thinking that everything I do is boring :P
22:28 colomon sorear: that most definitely is NOT the case.
22:28 colomon though a lot of it is quite esoteric
22:29 colomon for sure
22:30 colomon on the publicity front, I have to admit I've been a bit disappointed in the reception of the gtk mandelbrot script.
22:30 colomon I mean, on the one hand, it certainly isn't rocket science.
22:30 sorear how bad was it?
22:30 sorear the only comment I saw was positive
22:31 colomon right; but there was only the one comment.
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22:31 sorear o/ masak
22:31 sorear o/ Moukeddar
22:31 Moukeddar hello guys :d
22:31 Moukeddar \o/
22:32 sorear why does irssi continue to expand m\t to masak?
22:32 colomon like I had started saying, it wasn't rocket science, but I'm pretty sure it was the first threaded GUI in perl 6, no?  it felt like a milestone of sorts to me.
22:32 tadzik sorear: respecting character case?
22:32 tadzik hello Moukeddar!
22:32 sorear tadzik: nope, even M\t does it
22:33 tadzik sorear: odd indeed
22:33 rsimoes left #perl6
22:33 masak hello Moukeddar! \o/
22:33 Moukeddar guys, i'll have my first public course on thursday, wish me luck :D
22:34 tadzik it's this feeling "how did they write it so it behaves like this..."
22:34 Moukeddar i'll be the teacher
22:34 tadzik Moukeddar: whoa. What will you be teaching?
22:34 masak sorear: I guess irssi just likes me very much :)
22:34 dalek roast: c359f30 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S02-types/nan.t:
22:34 dalek roast: Unfudge tests that now work!
22:34 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c359f306ce
22:34 rsimoes joined #perl6
22:34 x3nU so building of rakudo on windows using msvc crashes
22:34 Moukeddar tadzik, C# :D
22:34 x3nU and building using gcc is impossible
22:34 x3nU :(
22:34 sorear I wonder what "rocket science" means and why it's used as a comparison so often.
22:35 * tadzik puts on the etymologist's cloak
22:35 sorear I was doing some stuff in Perl last month with numerical integration of solar-sail trajectories, was probably simpler than the mandelbrot script
22:36 tadzik I suppose people always treated rockets as something close to magic, so rocket science became an equivalent of Very, Very Hard Stuff
22:36 * sorear notes the people in #mono talking about smuxi release candidates, ponders trying it
22:36 tadzik + people like the phrase, for some reason
22:36 * tadzik takes off the cloak
22:36 colomon think of the post WWII days, when we Americans had to import ex-Nazi scientists to build our rockets....
22:37 colomon it was dark and mysterious and complex
22:37 x3nU building NQP under windows using gcc is impossible because stupid build system of dyncall
22:37 x3nU :F
22:37 sorear No, the real magic here is the Runge-Kutta method
22:38 sorear As in, "I have absolutely no clue how or why this works, but it makes a HUGE difference so I use it anyway"
22:38 tadzik :)
22:38 colomon all I was trying to say was, I don't expected to be showered in praise, because the script is pretty pedestrian, really, and sorear++ did half the hard work.  but on the other hand, threaded, GUI code is now pedestrian in p6!!  that's huge.
22:39 tadzik :)
22:42 masak \o/
22:45 colomon it's like we should have a committee (ugh!) dedicated to figuring out really cool stuff you can already do in p6.
22:46 masak news flash: that's us.
22:48 drbean joined #perl6
22:51 tadzik :D
23:00 masak 'night, #perl6
23:00 sorear bye masak
23:00 tadzik o/
23:01 aindilis joined #perl6
23:02 dalek roast: 94ec2d4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S32-num/roots.t:
23:02 dalek roast: Unfudge working test.
23:02 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/94ec2d44de
23:02 dalek niecza: 9b00872 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
23:02 dalek niecza: Allow split's $limit to be Whatever.
23:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/9b00872f93
23:02 dalek niecza: d7bbde0 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
23:02 dalek niecza: Turn off S06-advanced/callsame.t, it's kind of dodgy and fails miserably on Niecza at the moment.
23:02 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d7bbde0d26
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23:58 ggoebel joined #perl6
23:58 sorear o/ ggoebel

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