IRC log for #perl6, 2012-01-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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Time	S	Nick	Message
00:00			raiph joined #perl6
00:01			drbean joined #perl6
00:07			icwiener joined #perl6
00:13		ggoebel	\o
00:13		ggoebel	Happy New Year's
00:16			packetknife joined #perl6
00:17			drbean joined #perl6
00:22		ggoebel	sorear: regarding niecza and publicity... never underestimate the seemingly little things. A simple yet clever visually appealing logo. A pithy quotable value statement, website, etc.
00:23		ggoebel	a simple memorable searchable name
00:23			icwiener joined #perl6
00:23		ggoebel	my greatest fear for niecza is you getting hit by a bus or losing interest
00:23		tadzik	I don't see how niecza is not simple or memorable :)
00:23		tadzik	but again, I'm Polish and I have no problem with Brzęczyszczykiewicz either :)
00:24		ggoebel	that might be it... I always hear Nietsche when I type it... and usually flip the vowels and consonants
00:27		tadzik	it's almost like Nietsche, but the 'e' is audible, like the 'e' in Perl
00:49		cognominal	nom: my %h;  say "Brzęczyszczykiewicz".split('').map: { %h{$_}++ }; say %h
00:49		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 1 3 1 0 0 0 0 1 2 4␤("B" => 1, "r" => 1, "z" => 5, "ę" => 1, "c" => 3, "y" => 2, "s" => 1, "k" => 1, "i" => 2, "e" => 1, "w" => 1).hash␤»
00:49		cognominal	nom: my %h;  "Brzęczyszczykiewicz".split('').map: { %h{$_}++ }; say %h
00:49		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
00:49		cognominal	seems that some active code is optimized out :(
00:50		cognominal	or I need sleep
00:50		* Timbus	peers in
00:50		* Timbus	slaps cognominal's hand for doing that
00:51		cognominal	??
00:51		Timbus	nom: my %h; %h{$_}++ for "Brzęczyszczykiewicz".split(''); say %h
00:51		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«("B" => 1, "r" => 1, "z" => 5, "ę" => 1, "c" => 3, "y" => 2, "s" => 1, "k" => 1, "i" => 2, "e" => 1, "w" => 1).hash␤»
00:52		cognominal	I want to use map for the mere side effects.
00:53		cognominal	at least to get a warming.
00:53		Timbus	maybe a /for method on lists is not as crazy as i thought
00:53		Timbus	.for
00:54		tadzik	split('') => comb
00:56			PZt joined #perl6
00:56		cognominal	"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them". But programmers, when using a new language, advance by rethinking how to write important operations instead of using muscle memory.
00:57		sorear	some people think that all list generating functions should be eager when the result is ignored
00:57		sorear	I do not like this at all
00:58		raiph	sorear: what are your reasons for wanting niecza publicity?
00:59		cognominal	what would be the equivalent code in haskell?
01:00		sorear	maybe use mapM_
01:00		sorear	raiph: a lot of people outside the echo chamber think perl6 means parrot
01:01		cognominal	I want Perl6 on V8 :)
01:01		sorear	ehehehe... I doubt that will work well
01:02		raiph	sorear: outside the echo chamber they think perl6 is a blue norwegian ;)
01:02		sorear	Perl6 can't be efficiently simulated on foreign VMs
01:04		cognominal	sorear: but that would mean Perl 6 on chrome (polychrome?) and world domination
01:05		ggoebel	sorear: if the motivation behind niecza is "make it fast"... in layman's terms what are the hurdles which need to be overcome in the short, mid, and long terms?
01:10		dalek	roast: cb88c13 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S02-types/anon_block.t:
01:10		dalek	roast: Fudge for niecza.
01:10		dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/cb88c1385c
01:11		Timbus	how much effort would it take to lift nqp from parrot and put it in llvm
01:11		dalek	niecza: 260335a | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
01:11		dalek	niecza: Turn on S02-types/anon_block.t.
01:11		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/260335aa5b
01:11		Timbus	gc and utility libraries aside
01:12		Timbus	i mean just getting it to compile itself into llvm for now
01:13		Timbus	you can always plug in a hans boehm i guess..
01:14		cognominal	Timbus:  indeed I think  .map  as a degenerated  form of the  .grep.map idiom I use a lot.  I use them both for side effecta. The former being your .for method.
01:14		Timbus	im not even a functional programmer, but side effects like that dont sit right for me
01:16		cognominal	bad habits are hard to die
01:17		cognominal	that's the perl 4 programmer in me\
01:17		Timbus	fortunately i missed that stage
01:20		colomon	ah, perl 4!
01:22			drbean joined #perl6
01:23		colomon	niecza: say Order::Increase
01:23		p6eval	niecza v13-43-gd7bbde0: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in class Any␤  at /tmp/0WFpfPLDi4 line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2613 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2614 (module-CORE @ 61…
01:24		cognominal	my first immortalized perl post date from 1991   https://groups.google.com/foru[…]=fr#!searchin/soc.culture.french/payrard$20perl/soc.cu​lture.french/v25ELImC4_4/HV7fT_e8iOIJ
01:24		cognominal	*dates
01:24		colomon	woah, I didn't learn perl until late 1994
01:26		cognominal	I note I did not know all the magic switches to gobble stdin.
01:27		colomon	I still don't.  ;)
01:29		tadzik	you mean the -plne stuff?
01:29		cognominal	I have lost the mails dating from the time where I was stefsun.com.   stephane.payrardeng.sun.com was quite a mouthful.
01:30		cognominal	tadzik: yup
01:30		tadzik	heh, I ususally put them there at random until it starts to work
01:39		[Coke]	cognominal: you at Oracle now?
01:43		cognominal	nope, I have quitted Sun a long time ago...
01:47		* geekosaur	wonders when mono-sgen will be fixed in macports (long delay then bus error; mono itself works)
01:53			cspencer joined #perl6
01:56		dalek	roast: 9ee6b08 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S12-class/attributes.t:
01:56		dalek	roast: Fudge for niecza.  Please note that IMO the last set of tests is at best misguided...
01:56		dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9ee6b08a0b
01:57		dalek	niecza: cc39754 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
01:57		dalek	niecza: Turn on S12-class/attributes.t.
01:57		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/cc3975499c
02:03		sorear	Timbus: look at the "6model" repo... nqp already has ports to luajit, java, and c#
02:04		Timbus	yeah but th- wait luajit
02:04		Timbus	.. yeah but they're not quite as low level as llvm
02:04		* sorear	is younger than Perl itself
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02:05		Timbus	also do these ports compile and run rakudo?
02:06		tadzik	I've not heard of any attempts
02:07		[Coke]	t/spec/S16-filehandles/filetest.t has failures in niecza.
02:08		[Coke]	I just added that file to spectest.data on 12/24
02:08		colomon	[Coke]: works locally for me.
02:08		sorear	Timbus: no.
02:09		Timbus	wouldn't have thought so
02:11		colomon	[Coke]: do you have the very latest niecza?
02:24		TimToady	perl6: say +(1 .. '10')
02:24		p6eval	niecza v13-43-gd7bbde0: OUTPUT«0␤»
02:24		p6eval	..pugs b927740, rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«10␤»
02:27		geekosaur	*blink*
02:29		Timbus	i.. okay
02:30		colomon	TimToady: was there ever an official ruling on what to do with that case?
02:32		TimToady	S04:3414 covers that
02:32		TimToady	(in the context of numeric arg on the left)
02:33		colomon	S03:3414, you mean
02:33		TimToady	er, yeah, sorry
02:34		colomon	no worries, TimToady++
02:35		colomon	Is the effect intended to be, if the left-hand-side is Numeric and the right-hand-side is not, you cast the right-hand-side to Numeric?
02:35		TimToady	yes
02:35		colomon	so 0 .. '1.5' is 0 .. 1.5 and not 0 .. 1
02:36		TimToady	it should be like prefix:<+>
02:36		colomon	I ask because the text says "the right argument is coerced to the type of the left argument"
02:36		TimToady	hmm
02:37		TimToady	that's probably a specbug
02:38		colomon	so should it be something like:
02:38		colomon	1) both numeric, take as is
02:38		colomon	2) first numeric, prefix:<+> the second
02:38		colomon	3) cast the right argument to the type of the left argument
02:39		colomon	(that's a sequence of whens, not a list of instructions.  :)
02:40		dalek	specs: 8fcd8d6 | larry++ | S03-operators.pod:
02:40		dalek	specs: spec 0 .. '1.5' better, colomon++
02:40		dalek	specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/8fcd8d6b6b
02:41		colomon	TimToady++
02:41		TimToady	3 is not correct, it's "cast narrower to wider"
02:41		TimToady	cover by "as above" in the spec
02:42		colomon	gotcha
02:43		* colomon	is now hacking niecza
02:49		colomon	er, colomon is now helping his wife unload an ungodly quantity of groceries
02:50			tokuhirom joined #perl6
02:57			icwiener_ joined #perl6
02:59		colomon	..... not that I need a definition today, but how do you define "wider"?
03:02		colomon	for instance, assume you've got a Rat and a Num.  Which is wider?
03:02		colomon	niecza> say +(1 .. '10')
03:02		colomon	10
03:04		sorear	num is "wider"
03:04		sorear	(1/2) + 1.5e0 ~~ Num
03:05		colomon	........... !
03:05		colomon	\
03:05		colomon	guess that makes a sort of sense
03:05		colomon	afk moment'
03:08		colomon	back
03:10			drbean joined #perl6
03:24		dalek	niecza: ab2db52 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
03:24		dalek	niecza: Implement prefix:<sleep>
03:24		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/ab2db52a66
03:36		Timbus	http://i.imgur.com/SlD8L.png
03:36		Timbus	:I thanks visual studio
03:38			c-lesh joined #perl6
03:38		c-lesh	hello
03:38			Psyche^ joined #perl6
03:38		colomon	c-lesh: o/
03:38		c-lesh	I was wondering if there is a way to compile Java into Parrot bytecode.
03:39		Timbus	yes: by hand
03:39		Timbus	:D
03:39		c-lesh	No, I mean is there a translator for Parrot?
03:40		Timbus	none I am aware of,
03:41		c-lesh	Is it true that Parrot can translate some of its bytecode into native code? If so then would Perl 6 be good for writing games?
03:42		Timbus	you'd be better off using niecza imo
03:42		c-lesh	niecza compiles into native code? or Parrot bytecode?
03:43		Timbus	to clr code
03:43		Timbus	it's for mono/.net
03:43		Timbus	which has a jit
03:43		c-lesh	ah, so clr does translate some of its code to native
03:44		c-lesh	or all of it?
03:44		Timbus	most of it
03:44		c-lesh	wow!
03:44		Timbus	but the other advantage is you can use .net libraries
03:44		c-lesh	that's nice
03:45		Timbus	whereas rakudo needs a bit of work in that area
03:45		c-lesh	my understanding is that Parrot does not yet compile its bytecode to native, right?
03:45		Timbus	correct, it used to have a jit
03:45		Timbus	but it was removed
03:45		c-lesh	why?
03:45		Timbus	maintenance nightmare
03:46		c-lesh	oh, I see
03:46		c-lesh	I'm just wondering how one would translate bytecode to native, say in c
03:46		Timbus	it makes more sense for parrot to target something else that jit's better (llvm was the idea for a while)
03:46		Timbus	well, you know what a jit is?
03:47		c-lesh	yes
03:47		Timbus	well.. that's how :P
03:47		c-lesh	I'm not sure how to translate bytecode to native at runtime
03:47		c-lesh	there is an __emit__ macro in C?
03:48		c-lesh	jits are written in C, right?
03:49		Timbus	they can be written in anything, really
03:49		c-lesh	I'll have to look at some source code.
03:49		Timbus	the difference between bytecode and native code is.. well, one is native bytecode
03:49		c-lesh	I'm writing an interpreter myself. It compiles to bytecode but I would like to compile this to native.
03:49		Timbus	oh i see
03:50		Timbus	well, let me warn you ahead of time that it's a lot of effort
03:50		Timbus	please consider an existing jit library. llvm, GNU lightning
03:51		c-lesh	Thanks, I'll check that out!
03:53		c-lesh	Did Parrot use any of the jit libraries you mentioned or did it implement its own?
03:54		Timbus	it was it's own
03:54		Timbus	.. its
03:55		c-lesh	So is there a chance that the Parrot community will use some of these libraries?
03:55		Timbus	eventually, yes i would hope so.
03:56		Timbus	it really depends on what happens to parrot.
03:57			icwiener_ joined #perl6
03:57		c-lesh	What is Larry Wall doing these days? Does he still work on Perl?
03:58		colomon	On Perl 6, sure.
03:58		c-lesh	That's cool!
03:58		colomon	He was on here about 70 minutes ago
03:58		c-lesh	Wow! Too bad I missed him!
03:59		c-lesh	Ok, so I'm curious about the history of Perl. Does Perl 1.0 have a garbage collector?
03:59		geekosaur	actually still here now, just being quiet and unobvious
04:00		geekosaur	as is his wont
04:00		* geekosaur	unfamiliar with perl < 3.0 but believes there's a reasonable history in the perl5 pods
04:01			kaleem joined #perl6
04:07		Timbus	huh c-lesh http://www.gnu.org/software/do[…]t-doc/libjit.html check out this here. I hadn't seen it before but the tutorials are a helpful start
04:15		Timbus	http://blog.fallingsnow.net/20[…]vm-jit-with-llvm/ and this. took me a while to dig that one up :/
04:15		c-lesh	Thanks!
04:17		sorear	c-lesh: "unmaintainable" was only half of the storyy
04:17		c-lesh	What was the other problem?
04:17		sorear	c-lesh: it generated terrible code
04:18		c-lesh	Not efficient and fast?
04:18		sorear	it's extremely easy to write a naive native code compiler
04:18		sorear	but naive native code is actually not much faster than bytecode
04:18		sorear	and is MUCH larger
04:18		c-lesh	Really!!!?
04:19		c-lesh	How can that be?
04:19		sorear	trade a lot of ram for a small amount of speed... not much win
04:19		sorear	c-lesh: performance of native code is ... complicated
04:19		sorear	c-lesh: say you have one bytecode instruction, which gets turned into 10 machine instructions by your naive compiler
04:20		c-lesh	So, for example, I write a game in, say, Python (I imagine this language is bytecode interpreted.) It would probably run fast.
04:20		sorear	a good C compiler could turn the switch-clause into 15 instructions, but because of better scheduling that runs faster
04:20		Timbus	jits come into their own when they unbox and such. the actual loop construct of an interpreter isn't much overhead no
04:21		c-lesh	I see.
04:21		c-lesh	So why are jits even used?
04:21		sorear	c-lesh: there is no "fast", only "fast enough"
04:21		sorear	c-lesh: because a jit starts to win once you have about 10 man-years into it
04:21		Timbus	well jits do add speed
04:22		Timbus	compare javascript performance to 4 years ago
04:22		sorear	c-lesh: you're oversimplifying, I feel
04:22		c-lesh	So a game written in python that takes advantage of graphics hardware acceleration can be faster than a game written in C that does not take advantage of graphics hardware acceleration.
04:22		Timbus	c-lesh, easily
04:22		sorear	c-lesh: I want you to stop thinking about "this will be fast"
04:22		c-lesh	I have seen a lot of javascript games!
04:23		c-lesh	Wow! This really cleared things up! Thanks!
04:24		sorear	c-lesh: unless you're trying to make the next DF, calculation speed is not normally a big issue for games
04:24		c-lesh	I understand branch prediction is good these days as an interpreter would have to compare its op codes.
04:25		c-lesh	especially for 2D games like Mario
04:25		sorear	even for 3D games
04:25		c-lesh	These are the games I'm writing for my interpreter
04:25		c-lesh	3D games?
04:25		c-lesh	Are 3D games possible in python?
04:26		sorear	do you understand Amdahl's Law?
04:26		c-lesh	not really
04:26		sorear	if a program spends 90% of its time in module A and 10% of its time in module B, no amount of optimizing module B can ever give you more than a 10% speedup
04:26		sorear	this is Amdahl's Law
04:27		c-lesh	ah
04:27		sorear	I consider it common sense, but that's probably just because I've used it for so long
04:27		c-lesh	I'm new to the world of virtual machines, so to speak.
04:27		c-lesh	Actually, I'm writing one to make games.
04:27		sorear	so if you're writing a "typical" 3D game, 90% of the work is being done by the GPU, inside OpenGL
04:28		sorear	so optimizing your code won't help much
04:28		sorear	you can only make it faster by reducing the number of glXYZ calls
04:28		c-lesh	So taking advantage of hardware acceleration is key - not code optimization.
04:28		sorear	(why are you writing a VM?)
04:29		c-lesh	I'm writing it for fun and because I want to learn about them.
04:29		sorear	c-lesh: yes, but I have to stress that every case is different
04:29		sorear	when you have a good understanding of what's expensive and what's cheap, you'll naturally write faster code
04:29		sorear	experience matters, a lot
04:30		c-lesh	My VM takes advantage of hardware acceleration and I have gotten my first game to run quite fast on my netbook.
04:30		c-lesh	I have been writing code since 1998.
04:30		c-lesh	C++, Java, C, Perl, Python, Java, etc.
04:30		sorear	I'm sure you can access OpenGL from Python
04:30		c-lesh	Sure.
04:31		Timbus	panda3d and pygame come to mind
04:31		c-lesh	I have used pygame before.
04:32		sorear	probably longer than me.
04:32		c-lesh	Python uses what kind of garbage collection? stop-the-world, etc.
04:32		sorear	python uses "fake" kind of garbage collection
04:32			icwiener_ joined #perl6
04:32		c-lesh	I started using python on 2008 but didn't like the indentation stuff.
04:32		c-lesh	fake?
04:32		sorear	reference counting
04:33		sorear	fastish, but wastes memory and leaks like a sieve if you mess up cycle handling
04:33		c-lesh	So that means that memory is only marked as available?
04:33		sorear	perl 5 does the same thing
04:33		c-lesh	Parrot?
04:33		sorear	Parrot has a real GC
04:33		Timbus	parrot uses a generational gc
04:34		c-lesh	does this run whenever, like for example in a game loop?
04:34		Timbus	yep
04:34		c-lesh	is there a System.gc() like in Java?
04:35		Timbus	couldn't answer that since I havent used parrot in awhile, but probably
04:35		sorear	I would like to gently dissuade you from basing anything mission-critical on Parrot
04:35		c-lesh	My VM has no garbage collection and the programmer accesses the memory directly like in assembly.
04:35		kshannon	Yes.
04:35		c-lesh	sorry
04:35		sorear	e.g. last time I tried this, a simple sub call is 2 µs on Parrot and <50ns on Mono
04:35		sorear	s/mission/performance/
04:35		Timbus	mono is pretty boss.
04:36		Timbus	still mad android didnt use it
04:36		c-lesh	It's like of like a cross between assembly and C. I think it's cool.
04:36		sorear	what do you think of c--?
04:36		c-lesh	I write stuff for Android.
04:36		c-lesh	c--?
04:37		Timbus	http://www.cminusminus.org/
04:37		sorear	it's like a cross between assembly and C.  I think it's cool.
04:38		sorear	although it's lost a lot of mindshare to LLVM IR
04:38		Timbus	i just liked the name
04:39		c-lesh	c-- looks cool but my VM is not assembly like. It has no registers and uses DMA (direct memory access). It encodes all expressions and structures in bytes and executes these.
04:39		sorear	I do not think DMA means what you think it means
04:39		c-lesh	what does it mean then?
04:40		sorear	DMA refers to a situation where hardware *other than the CPU* can access memory
04:40		sorear	like say you have a network card that writes packets directly into RAM
04:40		geekosaur	dma means devices can access memory directly insted of having the cpu poll and copy data
04:40		c-lesh	I see. Like what the SNES does.
04:41		c-lesh	Does that mean that one does not have to transfer from memory to register to memory again?
04:41		Timbus	in a roundabout way. yes?
04:42		sorear	yes, but you'd be stupid not to
04:42		c-lesh	why?
04:42		sorear	because transfer from memory to register to memory again is a million times faster than using DMA
04:42		c-lesh	?
04:42		sorear	and I might not be exagerating, it's at least tens of thousands of times faster
04:42			kaleem joined #perl6
04:43		c-lesh	but the snes uses it because according to the manual it is faster to block data transfers
04:43		sorear	that was 20 years ago
04:43		Timbus	but my pc.. it is not a snes
04:43		Timbus	that would be awesome
04:44		c-lesh	so dma is outdated
04:44		sorear	*MEGA HEAD DESK*
04:44		c-lesh	i have looked at snes assembly code and architecture
04:44		sorear	I give up.  geekosaur, you're up
04:44		* geekosaur	not sure he can do any better
04:44		c-lesh	these people hack Super Mario World all the time: http://www.smwcentral.net
04:46		geekosaur	it depends on the system and bus design, plus even relatively slow DMA can be a net win if the system has enough other stuff to do while the DMA is occurring
04:46		c-lesh	So in a typical VM why are registers even used for register based VMs. For an addition why not just use arbitrary memory locations? 1 instruction with 3 params is better than 2 instructions, right?
04:47		c-lesh	I guess snes used this sinces its hardware was memory mapped instead of port mapped.
04:47		geekosaur	instruction decoding takes longer, memory fetch cycles may slow things down
04:48		geekosaur	in  modern system, performance isn't so much a function of individual design choices as the performance of the entire system on the intended load
04:48		c-lesh	i see
04:49		geekosaur	and individually "slower" designs may net a faster overall system if they are used appropriately
04:49		Timbus	the closer you get to the wire, the less sense it makes too. -_-
04:49		c-lesh	interesting
04:50		Timbus	simple jz loops often outperform repne even though it is a "single" instruction. why? pppfft
04:50		Timbus	idk
04:50		c-lesh	pppft?
04:50		Timbus	thats my answer
04:51		geekosaur	I think that's just onomatopoeia
04:51		c-lesh	i'm not familiar with the instruction repne
04:51		Timbus	repeat until not equal(?) its been so long
04:51		geekosaur	it's complex.  early on, certainly, jz loops often outperformed rep loops; now its more dpeendent on what you're doing
04:52		c-lesh	I'm learning quite a bit. Thanks!
04:52		geekosaur	x86 architecture has a number of "repeat" opcodes that act like automatic loops
04:52		c-lesh	This would be the CISC architecture.
04:52		c-lesh	RISC is better.
04:52		geekosaur	but, as they're designed to be general, they can be higher overhead than a well thought out explicit loop
04:53		c-lesh	So VM try to mirror the RISC architecture.
04:53		sorear	"RISC is better" ... this statement is so so very wrong
04:53		c-lesh	?
04:54		sorear	it's complicated, like everything else
04:54		geekosaur	and, for example, a rep loop was almost always slower than the corresponding explicit loop on 8086/8088 and 80186; they got better in 80286 and again in 80386
04:54		c-lesh	interesting
04:54		geekosaur	indeed.  RISC is better if you code carefully to the strengths of the architecture, and hilariously bad if you code naively
04:54		sorear	RISC *was* better when it first came out.  but the supposed advantages of RISC don't stand up to processor evolution
04:55		geekosaur	also required more complex code generators
04:55		sorear	the original MIPS design was extremely efficient, but it exposed a lot of the internal structure of the original MIPS processor in the ISA
04:55		geekosaur	but CISC architectures evolved faster than code generators did, for the most part
04:55		sorear	once you start making small changes to the chip, like adding a pipeline stage, the code generation has to completely change
04:56		geekosaur	yep
04:56		sorear	a modern processor needs a recoding unit to isolate the user from changes in the processor
04:56		c-lesh	that's were cisc comes in, right?
04:57		sorear	right
04:57		geekosaur	there is less of a difference in that case, but the real problem is the red queen's race between RISC architecture changes and code generators
04:57		c-lesh	so modern processors like dual cores uses cisc
04:57		* Timbus	looks at dual core phone
04:57		Timbus	i.. hmm..
04:57		c-lesh	VMs also tend to emulate cisc, right?
04:58		sorear	c-lesh: VMs do whatever they want
04:58		sorear	CPU design is fundamentally different from fast VM design
04:58		geekosaur	and having to make sure you pick the right code generator for your current arch, or having to pick a general one that runs ok everywhere instead of very well natively and horribly if you copy the binary to an ostensibly similar system with a different cpu stepping
04:58		c-lesh	true, my VM doesn't even have registers or simple instructions
04:58		sorear	because transistors are *always on* while in a VM, *one instruction* is run at a time
04:59		c-lesh	some instruction is my VM can be up to 30 bytes!
04:59		sorear	think about this: your processor has, say, 10^8 transistors clocked 10^9 times per second.  Think about how many logical operations happen per second, and how much useful computation occurs.
04:59		c-lesh	they include expressions as their parameters
05:00		sorear	CPUs do a *lot* of redundant computation in order to minimize *logical depth*
05:00		c-lesh	i see
05:00		sorear	also, dual core systems have been around since forever.  "Modern cpus like dual cores" is ... not really meaningful
05:00		c-lesh	since when?
05:01		sorear	I don't know.  I have a copy of the Motorola 68020 system programmer's manual in my room and it talks about concurrent processing using CAS
05:01		c-lesh	P4 was not dual core
05:02		sorear	so at least 1984
05:02		sorear	but I'm sure this goes back much further, perhaps to the 60s
05:02		c-lesh	1984? That long? I though they came out in the early 2000s.
05:03		geekosaur	if you only care about particular x86 implementations, sure
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05:03		geekosaur	dual cores on the same chunk of silicon is recent
05:04		sorear	it wasn't that long ago when a single core had to be split across many chunks of silicon
05:04		c-lesh	i see there were coprocessors before
05:04		sorear	especially back in the 50s and 60s when cores used discrete logic
05:04		c-lesh	cpu, gpu, spu
05:04		geekosaur	although even there it was more the "commonly available and easy for implementors to inegrate" that was the enhancement
05:05		sorear	geekosaur: were there any single-die multi-{ARMv1,6502,8080} systems back in the day?
05:05		geekosaur	I don't think so
05:05		sorear	geekosaur: for embedded systems wanting the ultimate fault isolation
05:06		geekosaur	single-die could be done as a tour de force, but not in any kind of quantity, IIRC
05:07		geekosaur	but there were multiple CPU mainframes in the 60s and multiple CPU microcomputers in the 70s
05:08		geekosaur	including hybrid logic machines such as the OSI C8D and the Commodore SuperPET
05:08		c-lesh	not familar with those
05:08		geekosaur	(6502/6800/8080 in the latter, IIRC)
05:09		sorear	I kind of want to see what the maximum clock speed of a 35nm 6502 would be, and how many of them / combined TFLOPs you can get onto a P4-sized chip
05:10		sorear	(ignoring the issue that small local memories are a huge pain for programming)
05:10		c-lesh	64K
05:10		c-lesh	that sucks
05:10		sorear	I'm talking more like 4K
05:10		sorear	*small*
05:10		geekosaur	what sucked even more about the 6500 series was that the stack was hardcoded to page 2
05:10		c-lesh	4K - I wrote pong in 256 bytes :)
05:11		geekosaur	that is, 256 bytes at $0200
05:11		c-lesh	there are clones of pong written in 256 bytes
05:11		c-lesh	256 bytes was for the OS?
05:11		c-lesh	$0200
05:12		c-lesh	so 64K - 256 was for the program or programs
05:12		sorear	c-lesh: $0200 is how we used to write 0x0200
05:12		sorear	means that the stack occupies locations 512 to 767
05:13		c-lesh	I know but that was the starting address of where the program has to be loaded in 64K architectures.
05:13		sorear	also, 64k *addresses* does not mean 64k *bytes of memory*
05:14		c-lesh	there was an architecture that had only 64K of memory and 16 bit addressing without segmentation
05:14		c-lesh	i think that was the 8080
05:14		sorear	segmentation was *rare*, c-lesh
05:14		geekosaur	on 6500 your programs usually loded above $0300 or $0400; page 0 was used for indexing (!) and page 2 for stack, page 1 could hold a bootstrap but rarely an entire OS
05:15		sorear	*most* of the 16-bit systems didn't have anything even remotely like the 8086's segment registers
05:15		c-lesh	how big was a page
05:15		sorear	page means 256 bytes
05:15		sorear	on the 6502/8080/6800 and related systems
05:15		c-lesh	where was the os loaded to
05:16		geekosaur	depended on the OS.  CP/M on 8080 and successors loaded the program at $0100 and kept the OS in high memory, letting the program overwrite much of the OS while running and then reloading that part from disk when the program exited
05:17		c-lesh	virtual memory
05:17		c-lesh	so not much of the os had to be loaded
05:17		c-lesh	not even the shell, right?
05:17		sorear	Virtual memory for microcomputers did not exist at this point in time.
05:18		geekosaur	doing virtual memory well required CPU support that didn't exit back then.  this is more like explicitl overlays where a program or the OS had to explicitly load stuff into the overlay area and swap it around explicitly if needed
05:18		c-lesh	but overwriting the os is dangerous
05:18		sorear	CPU support for virtual memory on personal computers didn't really exist until the 286
05:18		geekosaur	indeed.  but, well, that was what was available at the time
05:18		sorear	well after this period
05:21		c-lesh	how could the os be overwritten and maintain the stability of the system?
05:21		sorear	these weren't multiprogrammed systems.
05:22		c-lesh	so if the os was overwritten and the program exited what happened, was the shell still there?
05:22		sorear	The program crashes, the user reboots the system
05:24		Timbus	did.. did they reboot it with a crank handle
05:24		Timbus	:v
05:24		geekosaur	the shell was one of the things CP/M explicitly allowed to be overwritten during program execution; proper program exit allowed the OS to reload the shell
05:24		geekosaur	but if the program crashed, well, no memory protection or etc., so you got to hit the reset button or flip the power switch
05:24		sorear	I imagine the reloader only took a few dozen instructions
05:24		geekosaur	it was just the way things worked
05:25		sorear	It was a very different culture than we see today in the Land of UNIX Clones
05:25		sorear	(imo NT counts as a UNIX clone, even if it's really an OS/2 clone)
05:26		geekosaur	weird hybrid of OS/2 and VMS and Unix, really
05:27		geekosaur	but with a horrid lot of backward compatibility stuff, some of which microsoft is *still* trying to get rid of
05:27		sorear	Timbus: Usually the way things worked back then was that you had a normally-open push button switch that connected the \RESET line on the CPU to ground
05:27		sorear	If you were lucky you had another switch that did that for \NMI
05:27		Timbus	geekosaur, and Wine is *still* trying to add
05:28		Timbus	heh
05:28		sorear	(the closest thing to a "real" 70s-80s micro I've used was a 68040 Macintosh running System 7.1.)
05:28		c-lesh	the program would call a sub to reload the shell
05:29		c-lesh	right?
05:29		sorear	the Macintosh was a 32-bit system with 24 address lines; the bulk of the OS was stored in ROM, and the NMI vector pointed to a debugger
05:30		c-lesh	ROM as in BIOS
05:30		sorear	ROM as in read-only memory
05:30		sorear	BIOS is a term specific to PC clones
05:31		c-lesh	but doesn't the BIOS chip have some interrupts that allow files to be opened, etc. you know, os specific tasks
05:31		sorear	no, no, no, no
05:31		sorear	the BIOS chip in a PC is just memory
05:31		sorear	it stores 32-128 kilobytes of data
05:31		c-lesh	no programs?
05:32		sorear	the address decode logic on the motherboard causes some addresses to be routed to the chip
05:32		sorear	in particular, the PC starts executing instructions at $FFFF0
05:32		sorear	(there are some real horrors with initial CS setting that I'm not going into here)
05:33		sorear	so usually the BIOS memory range includes, at least, $F0000 to $FFFFF
05:33		c-lesh	memory mapped, right?
05:33		sorear	the BIOS doesn't know what files are
05:33		sorear	it does include a disk driver
05:33		c-lesh	that's true, just sectors
05:33		c-lesh	disk driver to read sectors?
05:34		sorear	the bios loads sector (512byte) 0 of the floppy disk at address $7A00 (?), checks the last 2 bytes for the magic signature $55AA, and if so jumps to address $7A00
05:34		sorear	might be $7C00 or $7E00
05:34		sorear	been a while since I wrote a boot sector
05:35		c-lesh	you wrote a boot sector, for what?
05:35		sorear	the BIOS also contains subroutines that the OS can use to access hardware
05:35		sorear	I wasted a few months of my life writing a toy OS... please don't judge
05:35		c-lesh	so the bios contains basic hardware drivers
05:35		sorear	yes
05:35		c-lesh	that sounds like fun
05:35		c-lesh	how did you debug the boot sector?
05:36		sorear	I used a PC emulator
05:37		c-lesh	that's cool
05:37		sorear	the BIOS *chip* does not interact with interrupts in any way
05:37		c-lesh	i see
05:38		sorear	when the x86 chip sees an instruction like $CD $13, it acts as though it had received an interrupt 13h from the bus
05:38		sorear	so it loads a long address from $0004C and calls it after saving the old CS:IP and flags
05:38		sorear	it's called an interrupt but it's really more like a subroutine call
05:39		c-lesh	i see
05:39		c-lesh	that's interesting
05:39		sorear	anyway the standard PC BIOS sets up interrupts 10h to 1Fh to different services
05:39		c-lesh	so the instruction initiates the interrupt
05:39		sorear	"interrupt" 10h is a disk driver, interrupt 13h controls the display
05:41		sorear	the idea was that you would write an OS, and the OS would use the BIOS-provided services so that IBM could change the PC hardware
05:41		sorear	sort of like how CISC makes it possible for processors to evolve
05:41		sorear	many problems can be solved by adding a layer of indirection
05:41		c-lesh	interesting
05:41		sorear	... it didn't quite work, modern OSes generally don't use the BIOS for a variety of reasons
05:43		geekosaur	non-reentrant, non-interruptible, often quite slow compared to direct access, often uses scratchpad memory that interferes with OS memory
05:43		c-lesh	i see
05:43		geekosaur	although, I would say the BIOS is in many ways back; ACPI in particular
05:44		sorear	also, writing code to work around bugs in 10 PC clone BIOSes is just as hard as writing code to work with 10 diffierent pieces of PC clone hardware
05:44		geekosaur	another issue is, with disk drivers the generic BIOS entry point doesn't generally allow for intelligent scheduling of reads/writes which can be done by an OS's disk driver
05:44		geekosaur	yep
05:46		c-lesh	so the bios is not really used
05:46		sorear	another issue is that the BIOS uses 8086 instructions
05:46		sorear	this was especially a problem for the 286, because once a 286 has been switched to native mode, the only way to reenter 8086 compatibility mode is to reboot (!)
05:47		sorear	the 386 and later processors can switch back and forth freely, but it's still a performance and complexity cost
05:48		sorear	"new" subsystems like ACPI and VBE often provide an alternate entry point that uses 386 instructions
05:53		c-lesh	real mode
06:03		sorear	rakudo: say "foo".IO ~~ :s
06:03		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
06:03		sorear	rakudo: say "README".IO ~~ :s
06:03		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
06:03		sorear	rakudo: say "/".IO ~~ :s
06:03		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
06:03		sorear	rakudo: say "/".IO.s
06:03		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
06:04		sorear	rakudo: say "NQP_VERSION".IO.s
06:04		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
06:04		sorear	rakudo: say "/etc/debian_version".IO.s
06:04		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
06:04		sorear	rakudo: say "/etc/debian_version".IO.^methods(:local)
06:04		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«open close eof get getc lines read seek tell write opened print say slurp d e f l r s t w x z copy chmod ins chomp path␤»
06:09		c-lesh	cool
06:10		sorear	yes, I mean real mode
06:11		sorear	it seemed like the unneccessary obfuscation though, so I didn't say it
06:12		sorear	c-lesh: disclaimer: I'm 21 years old.  Everything I say about computer architectures in the 70s, don't assume I have first-hand knowledge
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06:22		c-lesh	well, i'm going to sleep thanks for all the knowledge
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07:46		frettled	Good moaning!
07:46		sorear	hi
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08:14		Woodi	hi ppls today :)
08:14		Woodi	just backlogged :)
08:15		Woodi	sorear, geekosaur: pls, PLS, write blogs !
08:21		Woodi	colomon: me think part of fractal work goes to performance testing and this was marketed. and would be nice to spread knowledge about more application-way using of Perl6 GUI
08:24		sorear	Woodi: about what?
08:24		sorear	I have no idea which of the things I've done are worth blogging about.
08:25		Woodi	sorear, geekosaur you can easily blog about 'technology', just find problem or 'possible improvement' you want to comment, add historical view, add comparision of existing implementations...
08:25		Woodi	sorear: me think, for the start, would be nice some jurnalist ask some questions to you :)
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08:27		Timbus	it was an alright read
08:27		Timbus	gotta admit
08:28		Woodi	sorear: I have question for example: how stable or rock solid (in room temperature) are basic niecza/Perl6 features/functionalities. eg. are 'if', 'say', misc loop production ready ?
08:28		Woodi	so scripting with that could be done
08:29		Woodi	what other features are stable ?
08:29		Woodi	how fast is niecza on linux with mono ?
08:30		Timbus	about thiiiis fast *gestures with arms*
08:30		Woodi	sorear: how fast would be web server or web backend using niecza ?
08:30		Woodi	which databases you can access today ?
08:31		Woodi	sorear: pls write some library or app (crud) ppls can copy
08:32		sorear	Woodi: you're not going to be able to break if/say/misc loops.  Those are super-super-solid
08:32		sorear	niecza on linux with mono - varies a bit, comparable to Perl 5 but a bit slower
08:34		sorear	web server - no clue
08:34		Woodi	do niecza GUI include business grid/table ?
08:34		Timbus	a what
08:36		Woodi	relational table/data from db presenting widget :)
08:37		Woodi	how stable is GUI ? small, stable Excel can be coded ?
08:38		Woodi	how stable text manipulation, regexes, grammars are ?
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08:39		moritz	I'll be traveling most of the day, hope to be online in ~6h again
08:39		moritz	ciao
08:39		Woodi	sorear: problem with niecza is that it use worse then alien technology :) but one or two small but usefull apps will make it will be used
08:43		* Woodi	tee
08:57		Woodi	anyway, ppl, do not forget moust of us have winter now so low on sunlight which make better feeling. bears can at least sleep over that season :)
08:58		Woodi	but hot cup of tee make me usually better :)
09:07		sorear	the drink is spelled "tea"
09:07		Woodi	sorear: just found on Rosettacode that Niecza was 'using Perl5' initially. and in Niecza announcement that it is 'project focusing on optimization research'. is that goal done or to what point ? why architecture and how changed ?
09:07		* sorear	smiles for the first time today
09:07		Woodi	damn
09:08		sorear	Woodi: I'm always asking how niecza can be made faster.
09:08		sorear	And use less memory
09:08		Woodi	I realy need to re learn basics...
09:09		Woodi	sorear: but what other Perl6 implementations can learn from niecza ?
09:09		sorear	how to implement features
09:10		sorear	having two implementations helps to keep the spec on top
09:10		sorear	but if you don't mind I'd like to sleep now
09:11		Woodi	sorear: no problem, I can still put questions, etc here and hope it helps somehow someday :)
09:11		* sorear	-> sleep
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09:26		masak	morning, #perl6!
09:34		Woodi	hallo
09:36		Woodi	masak: how you think, niecza could use niecza.perl6.org for now ?
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09:38		Woodi	I could submit it to freshmeat.net/freecode too
09:48		masak	er.
09:48		masak	Woodi: (1) how do you mean, "use niecza.perl6.org"? (2) what is it you think you could submit to freshmeat, and why?
09:49		masak	stand down, soldier.
09:49		masak	don't make decisions that are really up to sorear.
09:50		Woodi	ad 1. just thinked about simple web page for now.
09:51		Woodi	ad 2. you must see it yourself :) it portal with announcements of opensource project, works seence '90
09:51		masak	I know what freshmeat is.
09:51		Woodi	url was freashmeat.net and stil works
09:51		masak	my question was more, why do you think you should submit something Niecza-related to freshmeat?
09:52		Woodi	why you use Reddit ? :) another place :)
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09:54		masak	I know you're eager to publish sorear, but I really think it's better if he starts the process himself.
09:54		masak	otherwise we'll have one or more unmaintained pages claiming to contain up-to-date information on Niecza.
09:55		Woodi	Ithink sorear would like community will do simple and boring task for him...
09:56		masak	yeah, don't.
09:56		Woodi	k, I will ask sorear first
09:59		Woodi	later
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11:07		kshannon	good * #perl6
11:24		tadzik	hello #perl6
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11:28		tadzik	why is sleep() a sub:prefix rather than just a sub?
11:30		Juerd	I'll guess: precedence
11:30		Juerd	sleep 5, say "hi"
11:31		Juerd	Like Perl 5's ($)-prototyped subs
11:31		Juerd	</guess>
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12:09		masak	Juerd: yeah.
12:10		masak	Juerd: also, &time.
12:10		masak	I don't remember how we did with &rand.
12:10		* masak	checks the symbols in STD
12:12		masak	S03 gives 'sleep abs sin temp let' as examples.
12:12		tadzik	hrm
12:12		masak	ah;
12:12		masak	There is no unary C<rand> prefix in Perl 6, though there is a C<.rand>
12:12		masak	method call and an argumentless C<rand> term.
12:12		masak	perl6: say rand 5
12:12		p6eval	niecza v13-46-gab2db52: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m��Unsupported use of rand(N); in Perl 6 please use N.rand or (1..N).pick at /tmp/UdmCAm4STk line 1:�------> say rand� 5��Parse failed��»
12:12		p6eval	..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«3.425864913733676␤»
12:12		p6eval	..rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of rand(N); in Perl 6 please use N.rand or (1..N).pick at line 1, near " 5"␤»
12:12		masak	\o/
12:24		Timbus	nom: say 5.rand
12:24		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«4.18286033244387␤»
12:24		Timbus	so... 'why'
12:26		masak	maybe because there's the realization that unary-prefix subs are exceptions to the general rule of listop subs, and we want to cut down on them as much as possible?
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12:27		masak	without, for some reason, going all the way down to 0. :P
12:27		masak	maybe going all the way down to 0 would count as having an ideological axe to grind...
12:28		Timbus	rand is a listop?
12:29		Timbus	i think something flew over my head there
12:29		Timbus	it is far too hot for thinking
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12:31		LlamaRider	aren't listops just shorthand for using associative operators?
12:34		masak	Timbus: &rand as a sub is deprecated in Perl 6. use the method instead.
12:34		masak	LlamaRider: I did not understand that question.
12:34		* masak	wants to reject https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket[…]ay.html?id=107292
12:35		masak	also, https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket[…]ay.html?id=107330 is a valid ticket but belongs in https://github.com/perl6/nqp/issues
12:35		dalek	roast: af353d6 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S0 (3 files):
12:35		dalek	roast: Refudge a bit to account for new, harder fails in Niecza.
12:35		dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/af353d6e63
12:36			tokuhirom joined #perl6
12:38		LlamaRider	masak: scratch that question, i was thinking only of infix ops that end up as list ops
12:42		masak	ah, yes.
12:43		masak	well, even something like 'say' is a listop, long as you don't use parens.
12:46		masak	nom: enum LionelRichie <me naturally together you>; sub it(*@a) { @a }; say you; say me; say it together, naturally
12:46		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«LionelRichie::you␤LionelRichie::me␤together naturally␤»
12:50		Timbus	<masak> Timbus: &rand as a sub is deprecated in Perl 6. use the method instead.
12:50		Timbus	:I copout
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12:53		dalek	niecza: 3171346 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
12:53		dalek	niecza: Do numeric casting as needed in Range constructor.
12:53		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/3171346f42
12:55		* geekosaur	thinks sleep is special-cased because you know it's never going to do anything sensible with a list, and 5.sleep is just weird
12:55		masak	Timbus: that was in response to your question "rand is a listop?", which doesn't make much sense since the sub's deprecated.
12:59		masak	I guess it wasn't a listop before it got deprecated...
12:59		masak	pugs: say rand 4, 5
12:59		p6eval	pugs b927740: OUTPUT«3.76167444512248045␤»
13:00		masak	pugs: say rand 4, ":::", 5
13:00		p6eval	pugs b927740: OUTPUT«1.895408839918673:::5␤»
13:00		masak	right.
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13:02		masak	geekosaur: I think it would be more consistent to have sleep parse as a listop, but to complain (at parse time) whenever more than one argument was passed to it. as it is 'say 2, sleep 3, 4, 5' is hard to read and understand.
13:02			icwiener_ joined #perl6
13:08		masak	though I guess it's no more tricky than scalar assignment :)
13:09		masak	it all depends on what expectations one has.
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13:42		dalek	roast: 35ebf63 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/range.t:
13:42		dalek	roast: Add tests for string and array RHS of numeric ranges.
13:42		dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/35ebf63d8d
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14:46		PerlJam	greetings!
14:46		masak	earthlings!
14:49		spine	hi there, is there some way in rakudo to keep the list generated by the cross operator from flattening?
14:49		spine	S03 says to uses lol context, but that doesn't seem to be implemented.
14:50		spine	rakudo: say .perl for (1,2)X,(3,4)
14:50		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89: OUTPUT«1␤3␤1␤4␤2␤3␤2␤4␤»
14:51		bao	?
14:52		masak	spine: correct -- I don't think it's implemented.
14:52		masak	bao: ¿
14:53			snearch joined #perl6
14:53		spine	masak: so I'd be best off by implementing a version of <infix:X> myself, which makes items from the lists?
14:53		masak	bao: 你来自中国吗？
14:54		masak	spine: not sure what you'd be best off doing :) if you know the size of the items, you can simply iterate that size.
14:55		masak	nom: for 1..10 X 'a'..'j' -> $a, $b { say "$a$b" }
14:55		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«1aâ�¤1bâ�¤1câ�¤1dâ�¤1eâ�¤1fâ�¤1gâ�¤1hâ�​¤1iâ�¤1jâ�¤2aâ�¤2bâ�¤2câ�¤2dâ�¤2eâ�¤2fâ�¤2gâ�¤2​hâ�¤2iâ�¤2jâ�¤3aâ�¤3bâ�¤3câ�¤3dâ�¤3eâ�¤3fâ�¤3gâ​�¤3hâ�¤3iâ�¤3jâ�¤4aâ�¤4bâ�¤4câ�¤4dâ�¤4eâ�¤4fâ�¤​4gâ�¤4hâ�¤4iâ�¤4jâ�¤5aâ�¤5bâ�¤5câ�¤5dâ�¤5eâ�¤5f​â�¤5gâ�¤5hâ�¤5iâ�¤5jâ�¤6aâ�¤6bâ�¤6câ�¤6dâ�¤6eâ�​¤6fâ�¤6gâ�¤6hâ�¤6iâ�¤6jâ�¤7aâ�¤7bâ�¤7câ�¤7dâ�¤7​eâ�¤7fâ�¤7gâ�¤7hâ�¤7iâ�¤7jâ�¤8aâ�¤8bâ�¤8câ�¤8dâ​�¤8eâ�¤8fâ�¤8gâ�¤8hâ�¤8iâ�¤8jâ�¤9aâ�¤9bâ
14:58		spine	masak: OK, thanks. I'll see if that is enough. trying to write down a nice solution to the tree problem from your coding contest ;)
14:59		masak	nice!
15:02		cognominal	"Foundations of Language : Brain, Meaning, Grammar, Evolution"  http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B001ODEPQ2
15:02		cognominal	may be of interest to people here
15:03		cognominal	better link : http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ODEPQ2
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15:30		fsergot	nom: for 1..10 X 'a'..'j' -> $a { say $a }
15:30		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«1␤a␤1␤b␤1␤c␤1␤d␤1␤e␤1␤f␤1␤g␤1␤h␤1␤i␤​1␤j␤2␤a␤2␤b␤2␤c␤2␤d␤2␤e␤2␤f␤2␤g␤2␤h␤2␤i␤2␤j​␤3␤a␤3␤b␤3␤c␤3␤d␤3␤e␤3␤f␤3␤g␤3␤h␤3␤i␤3␤j␤4␤​a␤4␤b␤4␤c␤4␤d␤4␤e␤4␤f␤4␤g␤4␤h␤4␤i␤4␤j␤5␤a␤5​␤b␤5␤c␤5␤d␤5␤e␤5␤f␤5␤g␤5␤h␤5␤i␤5␤j␤6␤a␤
15:30			teeter left #perl6
15:30		fsergot	nom: my @a := 1..10 X 'a'..'j'; say @a.WHAT;
15:30		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«List()␤»
15:31		fsergot	nom: my @a := 1..10 X 'a'..'j'; say @a.perl;
15:31		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«((ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (…
15:31		fsergot	nom: my @a := 1..10 X 'a'..'j'; say @a;
15:31		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«1 a 1 b 1 c 1 d 1 e 1 f 1 g 1 h 1 i 1 j 2 a 2 b 2 c 2 d 2 e 2 f 2 g 2 h 2 i 2 j 3 a 3 b 3 c 3 d 3 e 3 f 3 g 3 h 3 i 3 j 4 a 4 b 4 c 4 d 4 e 4 f 4 g 4 h 4 i 4 j 5 a 5 b 5 c 5 d 5 e 5 f 5 g 5 h 5 i 5 j 6 a 6 b 6 c 6 d 6 e 6 f 6 g 6 h 6 i 6 j 7 a 7 b 7 c 7 d 7 e 7 f 7 g …
15:33		fsergot	nom: my @a = 1..10 X 'a'..'j'; say @a;
15:33		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«1 a 1 b 1 c 1 d 1 e 1 f 1 g 1 h 1 i 1 j 2 a 2 b 2 c 2 d 2 e 2 f 2 g 2 h 2 i 2 j 3 a 3 b 3 c 3 d 3 e 3 f 3 g 3 h 3 i 3 j 4 a 4 b 4 c 4 d 4 e 4 f 4 g 4 h 4 i 4 j 5 a 5 b 5 c 5 d 5 e 5 f 5 g 5 h 5 i 5 j 6 a 6 b 6 c 6 d 6 e 6 f 6 g 6 h 6 i 6 j 7 a 7 b 7 c 7 d 7 e 7 f 7 g …
15:34		fsergot	Whats differences between := and =?
15:34		masak	I'd just like to say I like fluent interfaces, and I think they could be used more than they are today: http://martinfowler.com/bliki/[…]entInterface.html
15:34		masak	fsergot: := binds a value to a variable, = assigns a value to the container associated with a variable.
15:35		masak	fsergot: after the binding, you have variable->value. after the assignment, you have variable->container->value.
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15:35		fsergot	nom: my @a = 1..3 X 'a'..'c'; say @a.perl;
15:35		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, "a", 1, "b", 1, "c", 2, "a", 2, "b", 2, "c", 3, "a", 3, "b", 3, "c")␤»
15:35		masak	fsergot: the container allows you to do more assignments later.
15:36		fsergot	nom: my $a := 'a'; $a = 'b';
15:36		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/7UHz7Z9JDf:1␤  in <anon> at /tmp/7UHz7Z9JDf:1␤»
15:36		fsergot	masak++ clear, thanks.
15:36		fsergot	:)
15:38		fsergot	the deeper in perl i am, the more interesting p6 is :)
15:39		masak	best explanation I've given so far :)
15:39		masak	fsergot: you might find http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]nd-freaky-binding interesting, too.
15:39		fsergot	masak: where, in life examples, i can use := ? :)
15:39		fsergot	masak: thanks :)
15:39		masak	hm, that's slightly badly formatted. sorry about that.
15:40		masak	fsergot: that's too general a question.
15:40			Mowah joined #perl6
15:40		masak	fsergot: but often binding involves less "copying" than assignment. I've seen people use if for performance reasons.
15:41		dalek	roast: f6f7478 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-sequence/nonnumeric.t:
15:41		dalek	roast: Fudge for niecza.
15:41		dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f6f7478f49
15:42		fsergot	thanks :)
15:43		dalek	niecza: 1f4230f | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
15:43		dalek	niecza: Turn on S03-sequence/nonnumeric.t.
15:43		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/1f4230f787
15:45		masak	fsergot: for example http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]cc2010/p5-moritz/ uses binding for this reason.
15:46		masak	binds the array rather than clone it and copy all of the strings in it.
15:48		spine	fsergot; I've come to some problems with = when using lazy lists, e.g. my @a = map {$_}, 1..Inf; leads to an infinite loop, whereas my @a := map {$_}, 1..Inf; retains it's lazyness.
15:48		masak	oh yes. that's a good reason, too.
15:49		masak	array assignments are eager -- array bindings are lazy.
15:49		masak	it's even possible to bind a lazy list to an array constant :)
15:50		TimToady	niecza: constant @primes = 2, 3, { ($_ + 2, $_ + 4 ... *).first: -> $n { $n %% none @primes ... * > sqrt($n); } } ... *; say @primes[^20];
15:50		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71␤»
15:50		masak	\o/
15:50		colomon	niecza: constant @song := $*IN.lines; say @song[1]
15:50		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«===[0mSORRY!===[0m��Malformed constant at /tmp/2QeX4cP_Fd line 1:�------> constant @song �:= $*IN.lines; say @song[1]��Parse failed��»
15:50		colomon	niecza: constant @song = $*IN.lines; say @song[1]
15:50		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lines in class Any␤  at /tmp/h2aTGpinkC line 1 (@song init @ 2) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaBackendDotnet.pm6 line 0 (downcall @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src…
15:50		TimToady	the pseudo assignment works more like a binding here
15:51		masak	but surely binding should be syntactially allowed, too?
15:51		* [Coke]	starts skipping through backscroll.
15:51		TimToady	niecza: constant @song = lines($*IN); say @song[1]
15:51		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lines in class Any␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/IRlIdmlY4Y line 1 (@song init @ 2) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaBackendDotnet.pm6 line 0 (do…
15:52		TimToady	oh, should've expected that
15:52		colomon	niecza: constant @song = $*IN.slurp; say @song[1]
15:52		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method slurp in class Any␤  at /tmp/R6diXdVUi1 line 1 (@song init @ 2) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaBackendDotnet.pm6 line 0 (downcall @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src…
15:53		colomon	niecza: constant @song = lines(); say @song[1]
15:53		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lines in class Any␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/qR9nBecSu4 line 1 (@song init @ 2) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaBackendDotnet.pm6 line 0 (do…
15:53		TimToady	the problem is $*IN is not there at compile time
15:53		colomon	ah
15:53		colomon	TimToady++
15:54		masak	d'oh!
15:55		[Coke]	masak: re: RT#107292 - is Perl6::Compiler in the specs anywhere?
15:55		masak	nope.
15:56		masak	it's a Rakudo thing.
15:56			bluescreen10 joined #perl6
15:56		masak	I don't think the expectation that it'll be loadable at the user level is justified.
15:58		PerlJam	Why not?  Seems like it falls under making "hard things possible"
15:59		[Coke]	PerlJam: because it's not in the spec, and is therefor one more thing we'd have to support if we refactored.
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16:00		masak	nqp is a different language than Perl 6, so even if the user find the file, he'd have to load it through with some :lang<nqp> modifier.
16:00		masak	s/find/found/
16:01		jnthn	afternoon, #perl6
16:01		phenny	jnthn: 21 Dec 20:01Z <moritz> tell jnthn at your convenience, please take a look at S12-attributes/mutators.t. It seems to die in   $!varies +=2  with "No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'", which I find quite weird, since $!varies is typed Int
16:01		phenny	jnthn: 22 Dec 12:18Z <moritz> ask jnthn if he wants to get some commits in before the release
16:01		phenny	jnthn: 27 Dec 02:12Z <sorear> tell jnthn http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]1-12-27#i_4883396 I'd like a second opinion
16:01		PerlJam	[Coke]: I agree that those things are true, but that doesn't seem like a sufficient argument for not making it part of the spec.
16:01		[Coke]	+1 from me on rejecting it, anyway.
16:02		[Coke]	PerlJam: then you're forcing every implementation to use our (currently internal) API.
16:02		jnthn	Just dropping by to say I'm still alive. ;-)
16:02		[Coke]	jnthn: \o/
16:02		jnthn	Will be back home in a few days, and then back to my normal level of hacktivity. :)
16:02		PerlJam	[Coke]: no, I'm saying make the API public.  (at least I'm entertaining the idea a little more than the rest of you :)
16:03		masak	jnthn! \o/
16:04		[Coke]	so, don't make it spec, but make it supported? Still -1 from me. ;)
16:05		jnthn	Loading NQP code will need a :lang<nqp>.
16:07		PerlJam	I'm perfectly happy rejecting that ticket for the reasons cited, I just think the idea has some merit that should be considered.
16:08		jnthn	The Perl 6 grammar almost certainly should be accessible from Perl 6 space, with an appropriate use statement. The exact interface to doing so is something we probably want to try and standardize over implementations.
16:08		jnthn	Though not a priority at the moment, for me anyway.
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16:12		jnthn	huh, how come Pretence got changed to Pretense in a7fd89ea? :)
16:12		masak	goodness knows!
16:12		* masak	pretends to be innocent
16:12		jnthn	http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pretence is correct, y'know :P
16:12		jnthn	oh, pretense is the American spelling.
16:13		masak	aye.
16:13		masak	the commit comment says as much!
16:13		jnthn	But my MOP is proudly British! :P
16:14		PerlJam	jnthn: so ... do you "kick to the curb"  or "kick to the kerb"?
16:14		PerlJam	(or would you were you so inclined to do such a thing )
16:14		PerlJam	:)
16:15		jnthn	Well, it's spelt kerb of course :P
16:15		jnthn	But "kick to the kerb" sounds a bit of a gangsta thing to be doing to me :P
16:15		* jnthn	hasn't actually heard that expression before :)
16:16		PerlJam	it's probably american in origin, so it should be "kick to the curb"  :)
16:16		masak	jnthn: it is? I can see no other instances of British spelling in the MOP. that's why I thought "Pretence" was an honest mistake.
16:16		jnthn	masak: I was mostly kidding about.
16:17		jnthn	masak: Well, it's not so much mistake as "jnthn simply doesn't think about these things"
16:17		* PerlJam	was just surprised at the "americanization" of the MOP  ;)
16:17		ruoso	happy new year... (for all of those in the gregorian or julian calendars :) )
16:17		masak	PerlJam: it wasn't so much "americanization" as... a silly commit.
16:17		masak	PerlJam: now they have to credit me in the January release. mwhahaha!
16:17		PerlJam	heh!
16:18		jnthn	masak: Bah, you were meant to do that by getting us macros. :P
16:18		masak	ok, I'll do some of that too, then.
16:18		jnthn	yay :)
16:18		* jnthn	well get back to his NCI work
16:18		jnthn	*will
16:18		jnthn	Friday or weekend at the latest.
16:19		jnthn	Doing family/friend/visiting stuff for last few days here :)
16:20		masak	jnthn: make sure you relax really well, and come back with batteries charged to the brim!
16:20		ruoso	jnthn: hey... I am getting some weird behaviors and segfaults with my junction-using sudoku solver
16:21		colomon	jnthn, \o/
16:21		* PerlJam	wished his xmas would have been of the battery-charging kind rather than the bettery-draining kind
16:21		PerlJam	s/wished/wishes/
16:21		jnthn	ruoso: OK. An RT ticket with code and, if you can get it, a backtrace would be helpful.
16:21		jnthn	ruoso: I'll look at it once I'm back do things...probably the weekend.
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16:27		* ruoso	submitted
16:29		jnthn	Thanks!
16:29		jnthn	Looking forward to getting back to Perl 6 stuff in a few days time :)
16:29		jnthn	And with much more energy than I had by the end of December :)
16:29		jnthn	Tuit supply is looking reasonable for Jan/Feb too :)
16:30		masak	sounds wonderful.
16:30		masak	jnthn: looking forward to you getting back!
16:30		jnthn	:)
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16:33		PerlJam	btw, anyone seen pmichaud?
16:33		Guest13145	hi
16:33		masak	hi, Guest25455^W x3nU
16:34		[Coke]	PerlJam: if anyone had actually seen him, I'd expect it to be you! ;)
16:34		x3nU	jnthn: someone told me to ask you
16:34		x3nU	i can't compile rakudo with msvc 2010
16:34		x3nU	http://pastebin.com/vnJy7JjP
16:34		x3nU	there's no error message
16:34		jnthn	32 or 64?
16:34		x3nU	32
16:34		x3nU	just "nqp.exe has stopped working" or something
16:34		jnthn	Hm
16:34		x3nU	like that
16:35		PerlJam	[Coke]: I was actually thinking something similar when I asked  the question :)
16:35		[Coke]	I have a 32-bit windows system; I can try on mine.
16:35		jnthn	How are you building?
16:35		jnthn	I wonder if it's the "need to copy libparrot.dll in some cases" issue
16:35		x3nU	perl Configure.pl --prefix=C:/Rakudo --gen-parrot --gen-nqp
16:35		x3nU	it fails on configure
16:35		jnthn	Try (in the NQP directory) copy ..\install\bin\libparrot.dll .
16:36		jnthn	Then give it another go.
16:36		x3nU	ok, i will check it :)
16:36		masak	jnthn++
16:37		jnthn	We have an RT for this issue (if this is the issue)
16:37		jnthn	Just didn't get to it yet.
16:40		jnthn	OK, back to relaxation mode here :)
16:40		jnthn	Probably back about on Thursday evening, once I get home :)
16:40		jnthn	o/
16:41		masak	\o
16:41		x3nU	bye :)
16:42		tadzik	oh, I've just missed jnthn
16:44			tokuhirom3 joined #perl6
16:50		masak	tadzik: yes, but he promised to be back later in the week :)
17:03		x3nU	jnthn's solution worked :D
17:03		x3nU	jnthn++
17:03		tadzik	yeah, I can see :)
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17:33		colomon	std mavens: I'm looking at sort.t, and it defines a new multi for sub cmp (???) and then tests that sort uses it.  There's at least two major errors with that idea, right?
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17:34		c-lesh	hello again
17:34		colomon	\o
17:35		c-lesh	i was wondering if anyone has looked at the source for Parrot
17:36		colomon	I avoid it like the plague.  ;)
17:36		c-lesh	is it hard to read
17:36		c-lesh	is it object oriented
17:37		c-lesh	i was just wondering which module interprets the bytecode
17:38		colomon	c-lesh: there's probably someone around here who can answer that.  but there's an entire #parrot channel full of experts out there.
17:38		* colomon	doesn't recall whether it's on freenode or the perl IRC network.
17:39		tadzik	perl
17:40		c-lesh	does parrot development take place there
17:40		colomon	I believe so.
17:40		c-lesh	cool
17:41		colomon	as far as I know, it's the equivalent of this channel, but centered on parrot
17:41		x3nU	irc.perl.org #parrot
17:41		ruoso	jnthn: is rakudo autothreading using Tasks in the parrot level?
17:42		c-lesh	cool, i'll check it out!
17:42		c-lesh	I've been doing some research so that I can finish writing my VM.
17:43		colomon	ruoso: almost certainly not yet
17:43		c-lesh	Whoa! A camel made out of code on irc.perl.org! What is it supposed to do?
17:44		x3nU	just logo, when i said "irc.perl.org" i meant irc network to which you should connect
17:44		x3nU	ach, you're using webirc
17:44		x3nU	wait
17:44		x3nU	i will give you proper link
17:44		c-lesh	CTCP?
17:45		x3nU	c-lesh: http://wbe02.mibbit.com/?setti[…]&autoConnect=true
17:45		x3nU	here you can reach parrot folks
17:45		x3nU	c-lesh: that CTCP something meant that i was checking what irc client you were using
17:45		x3nU	you are*
17:46		c-lesh	Thanks!
17:47		c-lesh	they all seem to be out to lunch
17:48		colomon	it is virtual new year's day...
17:48		ruoso	colomon: it is interesting that the errors I'm getting are somewhat consistent with threading...
17:48		c-lesh	haha :O
17:48		* colomon	is watching the rose bowl parade, and looking forward to football
17:49		colomon	ruoso: in what way?
17:50			drbean joined #perl6
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17:51		x3nU	c-lesh: on IRC it is normal to wait for reply for pretty long time
17:51		x3nU	just ask questions and wait...
17:51		c-lesh	did that
17:51		c-lesh	i guess many are at work
17:51		c-lesh	i work from home, though
17:51		ruoso	colomon: in the way that it fails in different points at different runs, and that sometimes it even succeeds
17:51		ruoso	but it may be just memory corruption
17:52		colomon	yes, memory corruption / GC issues are definitely a current rakudo problem.  :(
17:52		c-lesh	personally i detest garbage collection
17:53		c-lesh	why not implement something similar to C++ memory management and then have an "memory leaks" cleaned up at the end
17:54		colomon	C++ memory management isn't very practical with a lot of the idioms we'd like to use in p6
17:54		tadzik	1) no one wants C++-like memory management 2) there'll be a hell load of those "memory leaks"
17:54		c-lesh	instead of having a stack one could just make sure each subroutine has its own memory
17:54		colomon	but I have to admit I'm frequently distressed at the side effects of NOT having C++-like memory management
17:54		c-lesh	but the interpreter could check for those at the end of its execution and alert the programmer
17:55		c-lesh	this was the programmer could fix his/her mistakes
17:55		c-lesh	a garbage collector running in a time critical loop is not cool
17:59		ruoso	altough it definitely consistently segfaults in the same point
17:59		ruoso	#0  0xf6901c4c in mp_cmp_d () from /home/ruoso/devel/rakudo/install/lib/parr​ot/3.11.0-devel/dynext/nqp_bigint_ops.so
17:59		c-lesh	.so is an assembly file?
18:00		ruoso	my bet is rakudo is not built with debug by default
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18:00		colomon	.so is a library file
18:01		thou	$ nom if.pl
18:01		thou	> take the white beer and the big yellow cheese from the kitchen and put it under the couch
18:01		thou	(["take", ("beer" => ("white",).list.item, "cheese" => ("big", "yellow").list.item), {"prep" => "from", "noun" => ("kitchen" => ().list.item,)}], ["put", ("it" => ().list.item,), {"prep" => "under", "noun" => ("couch" => ().list.item,)}])
18:01		colomon	object file library
18:01		tadzik	thou: wow, what's that?
18:01		colomon	thou++
18:02		c-lesh	raduko is running on parrot?
18:02		thou	https://gist.github.com/1536817
18:02		thou	tadzik: it's a hack :)
18:02		colomon	thou: what will you do when "it" has two apparent antecedents?  ;)
18:02		thou	i thought it'd be fun to rewrite masak++ 's crypt.pl
18:02		tadzik	c-lesh: yes
18:03		thou	so this works OK, i could write some Noun class or whatever to make it usable
18:06			zby_home joined #perl6
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18:07		thou	i was thinking about having a 2-pass method: first pass would map each word to a list of possible uses (e.g., "fire the rocket" -> (('fire' => ('transitive verb', 'singular noun')), ('the' => 'definite article'), ('rocket' => ('intransitive verb', 'singular noun'))), and then a 2nd pass to create a tree out of that.
18:09		thou	but i don't know how to use a grammar for that. can i use the grammar on a stream of objects instead of characters?
18:09		thou	i kind of think not
18:09			tokuhirom joined #perl6
18:18		colomon	sort tests are making me see red
18:26		ruoso	thou: as long as you can implement your stream of objects in terms of the Str API
18:27		thou	hmmm
18:30		masak	thou: ooh, rewrite crypt.pl?
18:30		masak	in what?
18:30		thou	masak, in perl6
18:30		thou	just in a different way
18:30		ruoso	thou: on the parsing natural languages topic... you do know that besides some very limited cases, this is a dead end, right?
18:31		masak	thou: honestly, I've been thinking of rewriting it as well -- I was stupid not to develop it with TDD.
18:31		thou	ruoso -- yeah, but i'm thinking of slightly more friendly than most Interactive Fiction
18:31		ruoso	i.e.: "fruit flies like bananas"
18:31		thou	sue
18:31		thou	sure
18:31		thou	time flies like an arrow
18:31		masak	see http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]the-june-blogging
18:31			snearch joined #perl6
18:31		benabik	thou: There's an IF system for the Z-machine (info com) called Inform that has a pretty darn good parser.
18:32		ruoso	current trend on natural language processing is neural networks and lots and lots of data
18:32		thou	benabik: yeah, i have used TADS and some others, a little bit, that are really good
18:32		ruoso	all formally-described-grammar initiative fail too soon on real world usage
18:32		fsergot	masak++
18:32		thou	anyways, this was mainly just a thing to learn more about perl6 grammars
18:33		ruoso	In that case, yes... it's lots of fun... I did that myself for portuguese once :)
18:33		thou	and to have fun with a small but non-trivial project :-)
18:34		benabik	thou: Inform was put together by someone who did a thesis in natural language processing and his documentation is fairly clear...
18:34		thou	really, if i were wanting to make real IF, i should just use one of the existing systems. but i want to play with p6
18:35		thou	:-)
18:35		benabik	Well, he had a good chapter on how he did the parsing...
18:35		thou	cool
18:35		benabik	http://inform7.com/learn/papers/
18:35		thou	thanks!
18:35		benabik	Although none of those are the ones I was thinking of, I think.  Pity.
18:37		benabik	Ah!  This is what I was thinking of: http://www.inform-fiction.org/[…]ual/html/s34.html
18:37			awoodland joined #perl6
18:47		colomon	niecza: say (1.1,2,NaN,-3.05,0.1,Inf,42,-1e-07,-Inf).sort.perl
18:47		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«(Inf, -61/20, -Inf, -1E-07, 1/10, 2, 11/10, NaN, 42).list␤»
18:48		colomon	:\
18:48		colomon	niecza: say (1.1,2,NaN,-3.05,0.1,Inf,42,-1e-07,-Inf).sort({ $^a <=> $^b }).perl
18:48		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«(-Inf, -61/20, -1E-07, 1/10, 11/10, 2, 42, NaN, Inf).list␤»
18:49		thou	benabik: the inform7 stuff is really interesting :-)
18:50		colomon	niecza: say (1.1,2,-3.05,0.1,Inf,42,-1e-07,-Inf).sort.perl
18:50		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«(-61/20, Inf, -Inf, -1E-07, 1/10, 2, 11/10, 42).list␤»
18:51		masak	colomon: I can see why you're not entirely pleased, yes.
18:51		colomon	masak: with niecza or with the tests?
18:52		masak	the test looks OK to me.
18:52		* colomon	is cheesed off at both at the moment
18:52		colomon	You can't sort NaN
18:52		masak	;)
18:52		masak	no, you can't.
18:53		colomon	yet there it is in sort.t
18:54		colomon	and defining a sub cmp should have never have an effect on the behavior of sort
18:56		benabik	thou: I was less than impressed with it because it's trying to do natural language programming, which I find somewhat irritating.  :-D
18:56		masak	colomon: not unless &cmp called dynamically, which it isn't.
18:57		thou	yeah, i guess if it makes sense anywhere, it's in a language for writing IF
18:59		masak	or SHRDLU.
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19:17		colomon	masak: what do you mean by dynamically?
19:17		colomon	(sorry to drop out there, I've got a three-year-old tackling me atm.)
19:18		masak	:)
19:19		colomon	now he's back to playing with legos
19:20		masak	colomon: just like you can declare dynamically scoped variables, so you can define dynamically scoped subs.
19:21		masak	which can then be overridden, and sort would find the overriding variant.
19:21		masak	except &cmp isn't dynamical that way.
19:21		colomon	ah, okay.
19:22		colomon	more importantly, &cmp has nothing whatsoever to do with sort
19:23		masak	right :)
19:33		colomon	huh.  next sort question: why should sort(@a) work?
19:33		kshannon	Ah, rakudo is depending on find_method dying with an appropriate error message rather than return NULL for quite a few things,  but that's not the correct interface for VTABLE_find_method which should return NULL instead.  There are quite a few places in the rakudo source which use VTABLE_find_method instead of STABLE(obj)->find_method;  I'm currently patching VTABLE_find_method to catch exceptions and return NULL to play nice with non-6model parrot stuff (i
19:34		kshannon	Jeez, I didn't realize the line had got that long :(
19:34		colomon	according to S32 containers, sort's first argument should be an ordering
19:34		colomon	oversight in S32?
19:35		kshannon	colomon: or the slurpy block.
19:36		kshannon	whoops, that's the method...
19:40		colomon	nom is doing
19:40		colomon	multi sub sort(*@values)      {
19:40		colomon	@values.at_pos(0).^does(Callable)
19:40		colomon	?? do { my $cmp := @values.shift; @values.sort($cmp) }
19:40		colomon	!!  @values.sort;
19:42		colomon	guess I can make niecza do that too, and maybe TimToady can fix the spec.  (Or tell us to stop it!)
19:44		flussence	.oO( wouldn't it make more sense to use 2 multis instead of a ternary op there? )
19:45			Vlavv` joined #perl6
19:52		colomon	niecza's sort really leaves a lot to be desired
19:53		colomon	since it doesn't appear to actually sort.  :(
19:53			drbean joined #perl6
19:54		masak	yeah, that's usually a minimal requirement.
19:55		masak	you could consider it part of the "contract" of the &sort routine.
19:55		colomon	this is really frustrating -- sort doesn't work right, and the tests in sort.t are insane
19:55		colomon	is ~(42,).sort: { 0 }, "42"
19:55		colomon	{ 0 }
19:55		colomon	?
19:55		masak	0 is a valid output from a comparator routine.
19:55			Moukeddar joined #perl6
19:55		sorear	good * #perl6
19:56		masak	it means, essentially, "objects $^a and $^b are equivalent"
19:56		colomon	masak: it's valid output, but no current compiler can handle a 0-arg comparator
19:56		tadzik	good star sorear
19:56		colomon	masak: and with good reason: wtf does a 0-arg comparator mean?
19:56		masak	good asterisk, sorear
19:56		colomon	good multiplying, sorear
19:56		masak	colomon: aye, that seems slightly insane.
19:57		tadzik	now we see how #perl6 users pronounce '*'
19:57		masak	"here's the obj..." -- "ZERO!"
19:57		* geekosaur	reminded of haskell-cafe thread where someone sked about pathological comparators and he suggested _ _ -> GT
19:58		colomon	masak, geekosaur: the really crazy thing here is that the comparator has nothing to do with the point of the test, according to the comments.
19:58		geekosaur	(amd all good p6ers should know that * is prononced Whatever...)
19:58		colomon	geekosaur++
19:58		colomon	perl6: say (42,).WHAT
19:58			mj41 joined #perl6
19:58		p6eval	rakudo a7fd89, niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
19:58		p6eval	..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Array␤»
19:59		colomon	nom: say Parcel ~~ Positional
19:59		p6eval	nom a7fd89: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
20:00		colomon	I think Henry is trying to figure out how to piledriver me.
20:02		colomon	now he's lying on me, trying to make me hold a lego, and chanting "Rock Island" from The Music Man
20:02		colomon
20:03		PerlJam	btw, is there a way to "unpack" a parameter and name it?    sub foo ([$head, *@tail]) {} will give me the parts, but how do I refer to the aggregate?  sub foo (@blah($head, *@tail)) {} is suggested by the tree node example
20:04		PerlJam	er, perhaps @blah[$head, *$tail]
20:04		masak	both should work, I think.
20:04		dalek	roast: 801c909 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S32-list/sort.t:
20:04		dalek	roast: Trying to make less pathological, plus light fudging for niecza.
20:04		dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/801c909ddf
20:14		dalek	niecza: e224a62 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
20:14		dalek	niecza: Make sub sort recognize a callable first argument.
20:14		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/e224a62d43
20:17			wolfman2000 joined #perl6
20:17			drbean joined #perl6
20:17		masak	wolfman2000! \o/
20:17		wolfman2000	Afternoon
20:17		masak	evenin'
20:18		colomon	sorear: if you grab my latest patches, you can try sort.t and see where it is giving incorrect answers.  :(
20:21		masak	27 people are now signed up for p6cc.
20:22		wolfman2000	p6cc? Alright, what am I behind on this time?
20:22		tadzik	:)
20:22		masak	wolfman2000: http://strangelyconsistent.org[…]-6-coding-contest
20:22		tadzik	. o O ( 28 people are now signed up for p6cc )
20:22		masak	:P
20:23		masak	as heard on twitter, "solve great problems, win great books".
20:24		felher	28, wow. :)
20:25		masak	well, 27 outside of tadzik's thought bubble :)
20:25		wolfman2000	I'll pass. Sad to say, but I don't know how to solve all of these.
20:25		tadzik	I don't know either
20:25		felher	Oh, ah, okay, just 27, thats _much_ less impressive ;P
20:25		thou	anyone know a blog, etc. interpretation of http://perlcabal.org/syn/S12.h[…]nd_Initialization :  when to use new, CREATE, BUILD, how they fit together....
20:25			alvis joined #perl6
20:25		tadzik	what fun is it to solve things you know how to solve? :)
20:26		masak	moritz and I didn't choose problems that we knew immediately how to solve :)
20:26		tadzik	that's something to put in the new perldoc perloo
20:26		wolfman2000	fair enough
20:26		wolfman2000	Still...first thing I need to do is re-get perl 6 on here if I am to even consider it
20:28			molaf joined #perl6
20:28		masak	do that regardless. :)
20:29		* colomon	just got charged $266 for a hammer made out of legos.
20:29		x3nU	sounds fun
20:29		* masak	.oO( and every problem looks like a little LEGO nail... )
20:30		tadzik	my first thought was: colomon has built a lego hammer which is illegal, and he got a ticket for that
20:30		tadzik	I've built a Lego Pirate Ship, I guess they're already after me
20:31		tadzik	good that we didn't build Lego Pirate Bay too
20:31		colomon	my little guy appears to be a shrewd businessman.  but not much of a hammer-maker, yet.
20:32			packetknife joined #perl6
20:34		thou	e.g., i'm thinking of something like:   class Car is Word does Scenery { has $.word = 'car'; ... }; if Word.^find("car") -> $word { say "I recognize $word"; }  # Do I implement Word.BUILD to add 'car' to a hash of known words, so I can implement Word.^find()?
20:34		masak	tadzik: LEGO Pirate Bay, enabling users to share material using LEGO-bittorrent :)
20:35		masak	dang, that pun only works in Swedish... :)
20:35		masak	phenny: sv en "bit"?
20:35		phenny	masak: "piece" (en to en, translate.google.com)
20:36		thou	hmmm, now that i spent the time to write that question, i'm thinking i might just want my Thing $car does Scenery .= new(:word('car'));
20:36		tadzik	hehe
20:39			pothos_ joined #perl6
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20:42			pothos joined #perl6
20:43		thou	still, i'm not sure even in class Thing where to implement storing the word; do I write Thing method new(|$args) { callsame; # Now get :$word out of $args and stuff it into %vocabulary } ?
20:43		thou	i have a feeling i should look at some example code :-)
20:44			y3llow joined #perl6
20:45			pothos joined #perl6
20:46		thou	i see masak avoided this question with something like:  grass      => Grass.new(:name<grass>),
20:46			PacoAir joined #perl6
20:48			drbean joined #perl6
20:52			proller joined #perl6
20:52		masak	thou: could also be solved using MOP and reflection, but I didn't want to do pull in that kind of heavy machinery.
20:53		thou	i think what i want is simple. i'm going to write a quick example of it in P5. if i can remember how to do that. :-)
20:56		masak	:)
21:00		colomon	niecza: (2, 45, 6, 1, 3).sort.say
21:00		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«1 2 3 6 45␤»
21:00		colomon	niecza: (2, 45, 6, 1, 3).sort(-> $a, $b { $b <=> $a }).say
21:00		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«45 6 3 2 1␤»
21:04		colomon	niecza: { say $^b; say $^a; }("hello", "world")
21:04		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«world␤hello␤»
21:05		masak	niecza: { &^c(&^a, &^b) }("hello", "world", &say)
21:05		p6eval	niecza v13-47-g3171346: OUTPUT«helloworld␤»
21:05		masak	\o/
21:05		tadzik	nice
21:09			drbean joined #perl6
21:20		sorear	good * #perl6 ... for real this time
21:21		masak	no-one expects the sorear inquisition!
21:21		sorear	masak: I think sleep as a prefix is a horrid fossil
21:21		masak	sorear: yeah; I don't really see what the fuss is about there.
21:22		tadzik	it just suprised me, reading the commit
21:23		sorear	TimToady: should $*IN exist at compile time?
21:23		sorear	jnthn!!!
21:24		colomon	niecza: (1.1,2,-3.05,0.1,Inf,42,-1e-07,-Inf).sort.say
21:24		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«-3.05 Inf -Inf -1E-07 0.1 2 1.1 42␤»
21:25		masak	sorear: jnthn's gone again... but he'll be back soon.
21:25		colomon	niecza: (1.1,2,-3.05,0.1,Inf,42,-1e-07,-Inf).sort.say
21:25		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«-3.05 Inf -Inf -1E-07 0.1 2 1.1 42␤»
21:27		sorear	colomon: last time I looked at sorting in niecza, the main issue that came up was that niecza doesn't use a "stable sort"
21:28		colomon	sorear: look again at those numbers.  that's not a sort at all
21:31		sorear	What.
21:32		sorear	niecza: say ('a'..'z').pick(*)
21:32		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«a v c g n s e f o z d h k l b r t q i y w m p x u j␤»
21:32		sorear	niecza: say ('a'..'z').pick(*).sort
21:32		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z␤»
21:32		colomon	-3.05 Inf -Inf -1E-07 is not sensible, either with numeric or string sort
21:34		sorear	I wonder why Str sorting seems to work
21:34		colomon	it seems like half the sorts work
21:35		colomon	errrr, 2/3rds by the sort.t count
21:35		sorear	niecza: say -3.05 cmp Inf
21:35		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
21:35		sorear	niecza: say -3.05 cmp -Inf
21:35		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
21:35		sorear	niecza: say (-3.05) cmp Inf
21:35		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
21:35		colomon	that's one thing I was wondering about: is your sort routine okay with values other than -1, 0, and 1 internally?
21:36		colomon	niecza: say (1..100).pick(5).sort
21:36		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«4 24 52 73 98␤»
21:38		colomon	niecza: say (1..100).pick(5).sort({ $^b <=> $^a })
21:38		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«99 59 52 48 35␤»
21:38		colomon	niecza: say (1..100).pick(5).sort({ $^b cmp $^a })
21:38		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«86 62 21 20 13␤»
21:38		colomon	that's working fine.
21:38		sorear	looks like it's using (int) internally
21:38		sorear	so if <cmp> returns 0.2, that gets counted as 0
21:38		colomon	that would explain a lot
21:40		sorear	also, C# thinks that (int) double.PositiveInfinity == int.MinValue
21:40		colomon	that's a bad combination, indeed.
21:41		colomon	I just checked the spec, and Comparator says "negative/zero/positive", not -1 0 1, so infix:<cmp> seems okay
21:43		colomon	btw, as I read it, zero-argument "comparators" are not allowed.
21:46		colomon	the given types listed for Ordering are Comparator (arity 2), KeyExtractor (arity 1), OrderingPair (one of each of the two prior, as a Pair), a Signature, or a Whatever
21:47		sorear	niecza: for 0, 0.5, 0.5, :x, 0, :x -> $x, $y { say $x cmp $y } # look, non-transitive
21:47		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«-0.5␤Unhandled exception: Attempted to access slot key of type object for Pair␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1381 (Pair.Str @ 3) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
21:54		dalek	niecza: e6a9ddc | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
21:54		dalek	niecza: Fix sorting of numbers differing by non-integral amounts
21:54		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/e6a9ddc670
21:54		dalek	niecza: d921607 | sorear++ | lib/CORE.setting:
21:54		dalek	niecza: Tweak cmp to be transitive with mixed number/non-number data
21:54		dalek	niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]commit/d92160757d
21:57		colomon	sorear++
22:00		kshannon	BLOODY SEGFAULTS!!  AAARRGGHH!!!!!!
22:01		colomon	niecza: say { $^a cmp $^b } ~~ Callable
22:01		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
22:02			snearch joined #perl6
22:02		colomon	niecza: say { $^b <=> $^a }(1, 10)
22:02		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«1␤»
22:02		colomon	niecza: say { $^a <=> $^b }(1, 10)
22:02		* masak	hugs kshannon
22:02		p6eval	niecza v13-49-ge224a62: OUTPUT«-1␤»
22:03		masak	kshannon: if they're reproducible, please report them.
22:06		kshannon	It's to do with my exceptions catching patch for VTABLE_find_method for nqp https://github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/25
22:07		kshannon	and I think I just found the reason.  I need to somehow peel the runloops back to where they were on entry...
22:09		masak	kshannon++
22:09		masak	'night, #perl6
22:10			sayu joined #perl6
22:11		tadzik	g'night masak
22:13		wolfman2000	Hmm...any reason that it looks like the last Rakudo release was around July of last year? I guess I was expecting something more...recent.
22:13		sorear	sounds like you might be looking at Rakudo Star
22:13		wolfman2000	I am.
22:13		sorear	Rakudo releases are monthly
22:14		sorear	Star was something totally different
22:14		wolfman2000	Which do you recommend?
22:15			munchor|afk joined #perl6
22:15			munchor|afk left #perl6
22:16		sorear	dunno, I've never used star
22:18		tadzik	wolfman2000: at the moment I'll recommend the monthly release
22:18		tadzik	the new Star will probably happen sometime this month
22:18		wolfman2000	anyone want to try to recommend I just go straight to source?
22:19		colomon	going straight to the source works quite well, IMO
22:20		wolfman2000	at least I'm used to working with source
22:25			pothos joined #perl6
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22:25			TimToady joined #perl6
22:25			ranguard joined #perl6
22:25		kshannon	WooHoo! free_runloop_jump_point FTW!
22:25			pothos joined #perl6
22:30			orafu joined #perl6
22:35			drbean joined #perl6
22:36		wolfman2000	t/01-sanity/99-test-basic.t ........ Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)  <-- felt I should report it
22:40		kshannon	What happens if you run that test by itself?
22:41		wolfman2000	kshannon: I forgot how to run individual tests by themselves.
22:41		kshannon	make t/01-sanity/99-test-basic.t
22:42		wolfman2000	http://pastie.org/3115020
22:45		kshannon	Ooops, that's from tadzik-- 5b58e03 Cleanup Test.pm
22:45		wolfman2000	I have plenty to relearn now
22:47			ruoso joined #perl6
22:52		kshannon	Fixed. https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/51
22:53		wolfman2000	Do I just git pull and then remake? Or do I have to configure again?
22:55		kshannon	Well I don't have access to the rakudo repository yet, so you'll have to "git pull git://github.com/KrisShannon/rakudo.git add-back-reasonless-skip"
22:55		tadzik	oh, gosh
22:55		tadzik	merging that now
22:56		tadzik	done
22:56		wolfman2000	Perhaps some of this should be explained on the how-to-get-rakudo page
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: 076bca2 | (Kris Shannon)++ | lib/Test.pm:
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: Add back argumentless skip to lib/Test.pm
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom:
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: t/01-sanity/99-test-basic.t breaks without it
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/076bca291d
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: ea03112 | tadzik++ | lib/Test.pm:
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: Merge from KrisShannon/add-back-reasonless-skip
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom:
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: Add back argumentless skip to lib/Test.pm
22:56		dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/ea0311205d
22:56		wolfman2000	either way, glad I could help
22:56		kshannon	Heh.  OK,  now you can just git pull.
22:57		kshannon	no remake needed as it just touches lib/Test.pm
22:57		tadzik	which gets compiled to lib/Test.pir
22:57		tadzik	at the end of 'make', so that should be fast
22:58		kshannon	make test will automatically rebuild the lib/Test.pir for you.
23:01		wolfman2000	all tests successful
23:02		kshannon	\o/
23:02		wolfman2000	I'll relearn parts of the language proper after some evening activities
23:12		dalek	nqp: 390af1f | (Kris Shannon)++ | src/pmc/sixmodelobject.pmc:
23:12		dalek	nqp: Catch exceptions in VTABLE find_method
23:12		dalek	nqp:
23:12		dalek	nqp: The sixmodel VTABLE find_method calls the find_method
23:12		dalek	nqp: in the containers STABLE which will throw instead of
23:12		dalek	nqp: returning NULL if it can't find the method.
23:13		dalek	nqp:
23:13		dalek	nqp: Anything which is calling the VTABLE find_method is not
23:13		dalek	nqp: going to be expecting an exception so catch any exception
23:13		dalek	nqp: and return NULL.
23:13		dalek	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/390af1fd14
23:13		dalek	nqp: b9c26af | (Kris Shannon)++ | src/pmc/sixmodelobject.pmc:
23:13		dalek	nqp: May also need to peel runloops after catching an exception
23:13		dalek	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b9c26afc60
23:14			PacoAir_ joined #perl6
23:14		* japhb	finally catches up with backlogging
23:14		kshannon	That probably should have read "Anything **outside of 6model** which is calling the VTABLE find_method is not going to be expecting an exception so catch any exception and return NULL"
23:15		sorear	o/ japhb
23:16		kshannon	The 6model stuff in nqp and the rakudo nom code all seem to expect VTABLE_find_method to possibly throw.
23:16		kshannon	The rakudo nom Failure type depends on it for how it works :(
23:18		japhb	sorear, apropos to the discussions re: VM performance, do you feel that you have already found most of the big (> 100%) performance boosts available for any Perl 6-on-mono implementation, or are there still significant areas that you have not researched/implemented?  If you've got all the really big ones, what about medium-level (>10%) boosts?  Is that still an area ripe with targets?
23:19		sorear	japhb: there are definitely specific cases left where there is considerable room for improvement.
23:20		japhb	sorear, Ah, fair enough.
23:25			molaf joined #perl6
23:28		colomon	ack.  I'm an idiot
23:47			orafu joined #perl6
23:58		thou	here's an example of using Moose BUILD() to take action during object creation; how to do this in rakudo nom?
23:58		thou	https://gist.github.com/1552694
23:58		benabik	submethod BUILD, IIRC
23:59			cognominal joined #perl6
23:59		thou	i guess i'm not sure how to access the args, and it seems the object isn't created yet when submethod BUILD is called?
23:59		thou	https://gist.github.com/1552700

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