Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-02-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:12 proller joined #perl6
00:28 sorear "prefix or term" is a major offender with 12201
00:29 sorear now, "prefix or term" only needs enough syntax to tell whether it's looking at a prefix or at a term ... but it has enough LTM info to parse the *entire* term
00:29 sorear in many cases
00:58 plutoid joined #perl6
01:03 colomon sorear: Does "having changed the behavior, STD is quite completely broken.  This is not an easy fix." mean that you know that your latest patches lead to about 20 failing test files in spectest?
01:08 sorear which latest patches?  I've had to revert everything I've tried so far
01:08 * sorear screams in fury
01:11 sorear I want to just abandon the project... I've lost almost all hope that it will ever be usable
01:12 sorear maybe you mean my changes yesterday - which files are having trouble?
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01:15 * sorear is tempted to abandon STD and write a faster parser from scratch
01:18 sorear this experiment in combining the parser with the lexer using a LTM engine is a complete failure
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01:42 * TimToady creeps back into the room and hopes nobody notices him...
01:42 phenny TimToady: 19 Feb 23:24Z <sorear> tell TimToady I would like explicit confirmation that in [ <a> || <b> ], <a> is supposed to be visible to LTM.
01:42 TimToady oops
01:42 TimToady busted by phenny
01:43 TimToady I believe STD's current semantics depend on <a> being visible
01:44 * TimToady thinks about ways to reduce the state space...
01:44 TimToady cat we figure out what percentage of the tokens start with identifiers?
01:46 TimToady it seems there's some way there that, having run the top-level lexer, you shouldn't have to build an sublexers that are a part of it
01:46 TimToady the fates were a partial attempt to do that, but I'm not sure it actually prevented the sublexers from building
01:47 TimToady just from running
01:49 TimToady what are the possibilities that a more compact and/or lazy representation of the state space might help?
01:49 TimToady how much of the lexer for "standard" STD can be precomputed
01:51 TimToady would it help sorear++'s sanity if we bought em a supercomputer so ey can think about this in eir hindbrane for a while? :)
01:52 * TimToady hopes there are paths forward from the 999th light bulb to the 1000th...
01:53 mikemol I just got a slick Fermi-based video card with over 300 cores, and nothing to run on it. Would that count?
01:53 mikemol Just give me a good reasoning engine I can throw at it. >.>
01:53 colomon sorear: sorry for disappearing on you there.  I pulled the latest niecza before dinner and spectest it.  You've not pushed any changes since.  Give me a minute and I'll try to get a closer look at what is happening.
01:55 colomon sorear: t/spec/integration/error-reporting.t .. Unhandled exception: Unable to locate module Test::Util in @path
02:01 colomon sorear: looks like we're having problems loading modules?
02:01 colomon at least, that's every error I've looked into so far, not just Test::Util
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02:07 colomon or, it might be that BEGIN isn't working properly?
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02:21 colomon ade397a9fa95cf8fd3ca83b54bb110e0a2aa91d1 is the commit which introduced the problem
02:31 TimToady taking someone near and dear to the airport to visit daughters... &
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04:17 TimToady Heh. "In science, if you know what you are doing, you should not be doing it. In engineering, if you do not know what you are doing, you should not be doing it. Of course, you seldom, if ever, see either pure state."  —Richard Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering
04:20 TimToady especially here...
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05:52 Teratogen Meanwhile, in Finland:
05:52 Teratogen http://i.imgur.com/0ORNp.jpg
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07:37 dalek niecza: 3474558 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
07:37 dalek niecza: Redo @*INC handling in a slightly more sane way that is compatible with parse tree pruning
07:37 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3474558d96
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08:08 sorear heh, it seems that DFA caching is broken in niecza
08:09 sorear maximum number of NFA nodes resident after a full collection: 351596
08:10 sorear maximum number of DFA nodes resident after a full collection: 3834
08:14 sorear I am now thinking intently about NFA representations using shared substructure (since most of that 351596 is just copies of the <term> protoregex lexer)
08:15 au that's what Colm does, apparently
08:15 sorear Colm?
08:15 au (direct substructure sharing instead of tree hashing)
08:15 sorear .oO( not Köln )
08:15 au http://www.complang.org/colm/ http://www.complang.org/colm/thurston-phdthesis.pdf
08:16 au similar to rules engine, with autobuilt state rollback on backtracking
08:16 sorear It sounds like ey reinvented Prolog.
08:16 sorear Universal state rollback on backtracking is a very cool feature
08:16 au ey also claims it's rather fast and memory efficient, though.
08:17 au (as compared to traditional nondet)
08:17 au from the paper looks like a simple copy-on-write sharing to me
08:17 au (it's been a while since I looked at colm's code, not exactly sure about implementation details.)
08:19 sorear this is a rather big break for me because it means that one of the most constraining optimizations was totally premature
08:19 sorear also, o/ au
08:20 au /o
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08:34 roland333 joined #perl6
08:35 roland333 Evening everyone.
08:35 sorear Hello (and welcome?) roland333.
08:35 roland333 Beginning my perl journey and heard about this channel from the web.
08:36 roland333 Whats everybody's proficiency level?
08:36 roland333 thats a confirm on the welcome sorear.  This is my first time here, as you've gathered(I assume?).
08:37 sorear Sometimes I fail to remember people. :)
08:37 sorear This is the channel where a bunch of young'uns work on developing the language that will carry the flag of "Perl" for the next 20 years.
08:38 roland333 Ahh, could you recommend a channel for beginning users?  Maybe i'll come back to this channel in a year or so.
08:38 sorear I would not say this is a bad place for *beginners*.
08:39 roland333 Good!
08:39 sorear It's more a question of your goals - are they located in the present, or the medium future?
08:39 roland333 medium
08:40 roland333 I'm trying to find my calling and I have a friend who is a master(no hyperbole) perl programmer who convinced me to dive in.
08:41 roland333 i'm planning on devoting as much of my free time as possible to the art.  To cultivate an obsession if you will.
08:41 bacek joined #perl6
08:41 sorear I've been part of the Perl 6 effort for about two years now
08:41 roland333 Let me ask you this, I have Perl 5 installed on my macbook, is it worth installing Perl 6?
08:42 mj41 joined #perl6
08:42 roland333 If only for experience working with terminal and getting used to fucking around in the deep.
08:42 * Teratogen is waiting patiently for perl 6.0.0
08:42 roland333 haha
08:42 sorear Perl 6 is not an upgrade to Perl 5
08:42 sorear It was supposed to be, once
08:43 roland333 What is the purpose then?
08:43 roland333 to be an addendum?
08:43 sorear It will carry the flag of Perl for the next 20 years
08:43 roland333 Why couldn't Perl 5 carry the flag of Perl for the next 20 years?
08:43 Teratogen Perl 5 is being developed ferociously
08:44 sorear Because Perl 5 has major design problems and it was collectively decided in 2001 that it would be better to attempt a redesign
08:44 Teratogen sorear, that is not stopping the Perl 5 development team from plopping out new versions.
08:44 sorear Unfortunately, Larry and Patrick both had major life crises, which has slowed down Perl 6 a lot
08:44 roland333 Ahh, okay.  SO let me understand you right.
08:45 roland333 Perl 6 is not an upgrade, its a re-design.  from the ground up?
08:45 sorear sometime around 2006 a group of people gave up waiting and forked Perl 5
08:45 sorear Yes.
08:45 sorear Teratogen: I don't blame #p5p for doing the most practical thing
08:46 sorear so at this point we have two teams working in parallel under the name "Perl"
08:46 roland333 So does it make any difference if I learn to code in 5 or 6?  I'm assuming the function and syntax will be identical?
08:46 roland333 *functions
08:47 sorear the folks in #p5p are working on the same 'ol codebase from 1987
08:47 cognominal___ sorear, I did not know there was a new perl 5 fork.
08:47 roland333 I really have the most rudimentary understanding of the most basic programming concepts as you can tell.
08:47 sorear roland333: Syntax is not identical, but they're close enough that you can switch between them without much effort
08:48 roland333 Okay, cool.
08:48 roland333 HI szabgag.  Thanks for the video!
08:48 Teratogen nom: say 1+1
08:48 p6eval nom ac5d99: OUTPUT«2␤»
08:48 Teratogen it works!
08:49 sorear There's a general conception in Perl 5 circles that we're a bunch of idealists who will never amount to anything
08:49 sorear They may be right
08:49 roland333 haha.
08:50 roland333 Isn't idealism one of the main tenets of Perl?
08:50 sorear If you want to throw a lot of your time at an extremely friendly community, in a setting that's still wet enough for you to make a significant impression, then #perl6 is the right place for you
08:50 roland333 thats the idea I got from my buddy, but he may be guilty of transferrence
08:50 sorear might be good to look at some of TimToady's talks.  whipitupitude, manuplexity...
08:51 roland333 was that @ me?
08:51 sorear yes
08:51 roland333 Alright, i'll bookmark that.
08:51 sorear you've probably heard of the Three Virtues of Programmers already
08:51 roland333 nope
08:52 roland333 my friend is unorthodox.
08:52 roland333 and has no discernable virtue.
08:52 roland333 to the orthodox eye at least.
08:52 roland333 thankfully neither of mine are.
08:52 roland333 or none I should say, considering the third eye.
08:53 jnthn morning, #perl6
08:53 au /o jnthn
08:54 sorear the Three Virtues of Programmers, as found in the Llama Book and probably other sources, are Lazyness, Impatience, and Hubris
08:54 sorear I guess idealism falls under Hubris.
08:54 roland333 haha
08:54 sorear o/ jnthn
08:54 roland333 I think he did mention that actually.  Friday night. I was drunk and high and he was massively sideways.
08:55 roland333 Timtoady is larry wall, just to confirm?
08:55 sorear Yep
08:55 roland333 I watched his talk on his linguistics background.
08:56 roland333 LOVED the joke about how english borrows from etc, etc, and japanese, "a skosh".
08:56 sorear Although if you ask him, he will twist words to make you think he is denying it.
08:56 roland333 haha
08:56 roland333 I like jokes that test your intelligence and that was one of the best examples i've heard.
08:56 noam__ joined #perl6
08:57 * sorear was quite suprised to learn that "tycoon" and "typhoon" are actually from Japanese, although if they were borrowed post-Hepburn they would be spelled taifun and taikun
08:57 roland333 I was similarly amazed to discover the same of "skosh"
08:58 Teratogen sorear, what parts of Perl 6 are you working on?
08:58 Teratogen you've piqued my curiosity.
08:58 roland333 How rude.  I hope it was decent.
08:59 sorear Teratogen: I created niecza?
08:59 Teratogen cool
08:59 sorear maybe I have not been advertizing this fact enough.
08:59 roland333 never forget hubris
09:00 sorear yeah, I'm going on way too much deeply-ingrained modesty
09:00 roland333 Would you recommend learning perl or beginning perl as a starter book for a beginner?
09:00 Timbus laughed
09:00 Timbus which parts? all the parts
09:01 sorear although I seem to have impatience down pat; I worked myself into a crying fit last night over repeatedly failing to make niecza any faster
09:01 sorear roland333: which one has a llama on the front?  that's the only one I've read
09:01 roland333 thats learning.
09:02 au ..."[Lazyness, Impatience, and Hubris] are virtues of passion. They are also virtues of an individual. They are not, however, virtues of community. The virtues of community sound like their opposites: diligence, patience, and humility."
09:02 Timbus i keep getting this dumb urge to try putting nqp on llvm
09:02 roland333 thats the one my friend recommended.  They both look good so I suppose i'll read both.
09:02 sorear in Perl circles the main books are universally known as the Llama Book, the Camel Book, and the Alpaca(?) Book
09:02 Timbus i just want to know how much faster it could get
09:02 roland333 Yeah, i'm savvy.
09:02 sorear which one is "beginning"?
09:02 sorear I don't think I've ever heard of "Beginning Perl"
09:02 roland333 I get the sense that they're both well written but beginning is the one featured for free on perl.org
09:03 au sorear: it's Simon Cozens's take
09:03 roland333 http://learn.perl.org/books/beginning-perl/
09:03 roland333 au, do you have an opinion?
09:03 au similar to scope to chromatic's take "Modern Perl"
09:04 roland333 a bit of context, i'm very new.  No pubes inexperienced.
09:04 sorear roland333: I recommend you /whois everybody
09:04 roland333 ahh! thanks.
09:04 au roland333: I'd recommend Modern Perl, if only because it has a PDF version. http://onyxneon.com/books/modern_perl/modern_perl_a4.pdf
09:05 sorear "Modern Perl" is kind of sort of the name adopted by the community that rebooted Perl 5
09:05 au but if you like paper version, a new edition is at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0977920178
09:05 Timbus here is a site made recently: http://perl-tutorial.org/
09:05 sorear roland333: au and jnthn you may know of under other names
09:06 Timbus it was made because googling 'perl tutorial' would get you tutes written before 2000
09:06 roland333 hey...does anyone know scottie D?
09:06 sorear roland333: stupid question, how much do you know about programming in general?
09:06 sorear who?
09:06 roland333 deindorfer?
09:07 sorear phenny: "deindorfer"?
09:07 phenny sorear: "your dorf" (de to en, translate.google.com)
09:07 roland333 haha
09:07 sorear phenny: "dorf"?
09:07 phenny sorear: "village" (de to en, translate.google.com)
09:07 roland333 thats amazing
09:08 sorear what about my village?
09:08 au Timbus: wow, thx for the link, didn't know of that before. it also contains a link to the PDF version of the new edition. http://modernperlbooks.com/drafts/modern_perl/modern_perl_2011_2012_draft.pdf
09:08 roland333 The reason I mention your village is he is the friend who is getting me into programming
09:08 Teratogen my only claim to fame:
09:08 Teratogen http://www.users.qwest.net/~intertwingled/hooters/
09:08 Teratogen picturs of me and Randal Schwartz having lunch at H@@TERS
09:09 * sorear blinks
09:09 Timbus ahaha
09:09 roland333 He's friends with some notorious python(I think) programmers in england.
09:09 Timbus thank you internet
09:09 roland333 But anyhow to answer your question, I learned a little basic and pascal in high school like 10 years ago.
09:09 Teratogen there is a great story about that waitress
09:10 moritz Teratogen: if there's no immediate connection to Perl 6, it might not be on topic here (hint, hint)
09:10 Teratogen well, it's still a pretty good story
09:10 Teratogen but ok!
09:10 sorear I would not have expected hooters to be mentioned here.  It seems to be quite incongruous on the gender-politics axis.
09:11 Teratogen Randal loves H@@TERS
09:11 roland333 haha.  I need to invite my friend into this chat, he would love the way you speak sorear.
09:11 colomon sorear++: spectests are fine now.  thank you!
09:12 roland333 although, i think gender politics axes would be a better term.
09:13 * sorear is 21, a little directionless in life
09:14 sorear probably my biggest claim to fame is having been a founding developer of xmonad.  Irrationally, I am irked at dons for doing as much as he did to make xmonad universally known
09:14 roland333 i find that difficult to believe, at least for in the same sense i am directionless.
09:14 au sorear: “The essential thing "in heaven and earth" is . . . that there should be long obedience in the same directionlessness; there thereby results, and has always resulted in the long run, something which has made life worth living.”
09:15 roland333 source?
09:15 au Nietzsche, quoted by TimToday, 2nd State of the Onion ("-lessness" mine)
09:15 au *TimToady
09:16 roland333 i think the -lessness improves the thing
09:16 au :)
09:17 roland333 let me ask this to all europeans.  Hows the market for perl programmers where you are?
09:17 sorear yeah, I'm just not thrilled with being as tied down and meansless as I am
09:17 sorear I keep having to turn down invitations to Norway
09:17 roland333 WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?
09:17 roland333 oh, you're in sweden
09:18 roland333 nvm mind
09:18 sorear No, I'm in California
09:18 roland333 Im in america.
09:18 roland333 alright, the comment stands
09:18 roland333 question i mean
09:18 sorear Servers don't have anything to do with geography, they're handed out randomly
09:18 roland333 ahh
09:19 roland333 thats interesting.
09:19 * moritz accepts invitations to Norway
09:19 roland333 im surprised at that fact
09:19 sorear You've been assigned the CO server, but your IP resolves to Windber PA
09:19 roland333 how'd you find out where my ip resolves to?
09:20 sorear 1. /whois roland333
09:20 sorear 2. 01:18 [freenode] -!- roland333 [62dba5dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.219.165.221]
09:20 sorear 3. http://www.ip2location.com/98.219.165.221
09:20 roland333 okay experimenting.....
09:21 sorear It won't work on me because my local ISP sucks and I'm forwarding my connection through a colo in the East
09:21 sorear (I'm in San Diego btw)
09:21 roland333 still.  for the experience.
09:21 roland333 brb
09:21 Teratogen San Diego!
09:21 Teratogen That's Ron Burgundy country!
09:21 roland333 Hooters!
09:22 roland333 ha
09:22 sorear trouble is, I don't know thing one about travelling on my own :|
09:22 woosley left #perl6
09:22 moritz sorear: time to start gathering experience :-)
09:22 Teratogen sorear: go shunpiking
09:22 roland333 +1
09:23 roland333 to moritzs comment
09:23 sorear and I have been strongly advised that I should not make my first trip be trans-Atlantic
09:24 moritz sorear: then sign up for this year's YAPC::NA, or visit colomon++ or so :-)
09:24 roland333 fuck that noise
09:24 sorear (the last time this came up, YAPC::EU was in Latvia and it came with a side order of "Also, I don't like former Soviet republics.".  People...)
09:24 arnsholt sorear: Traveling on your own isn't too hard
09:24 arnsholt Can be quite relaxing in fact
09:25 roland333 depends on your personality.
09:25 sorear I'm one of those losers who has never not lived with parents nor held a job in eir life.
09:25 roland333 sorear: why did i get this location back from ip2location:  UNITED STATES, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, WASHINGTON ?
09:25 Teratogen join the Air Force
09:25 roland333 ugh
09:25 roland333 i say again fuck that noise.
09:26 sorear roland333: quality of information in geoip databases varies widely
09:26 * au recommends Bose QuietComfort 3 noise-cancellation earphone for that purpose.
09:26 sorear I've never seen the country be wrong, but anything below that is uncertain
09:26 moritz for me, traveling always has cycles of stress (getting to the next means of transport) and relaxation (waiting for said means of transport, or waiting for it to arrive)
09:26 au (where "that purpose" means long distance traveling. (any other earphones with noise cancellation will do, really.))
09:27 roland333 well, i skipped step 2
09:27 roland333 and just cp'd your ip.
09:27 roland333 au, i disagree.
09:28 roland333 best to experience the sights and sounds fully.
09:28 roland333 but to each their own.
09:28 au *nod*
09:28 sorear roland333: what, then, did you mean by "fuck that noise"?
09:29 sorear roland333: try 72.207.121.125
09:29 roland333 haha, an expression that basically means I disagree with everything about that idea, event, situation.
09:29 au oh. the irc equivalent would be /ignore :)
09:29 sorear roland333: the ip you have from freenode is the ip for a VPS provided by appflux.net
09:29 roland333 how would i divine that information without you telling me?
09:30 roland333 btw, that gave me poway as your location.
09:30 sorear I guess you could make a fake court order for connection logs and send it off to AppFlux
09:30 roland333 riding cox's cable.
09:30 roland333 lol.
09:31 sorear poway, close enough
09:31 roland333 yeah, looked close to me on gmaps.
09:31 sorear I'm in a suburb in eastern SD county
09:31 sorear not the city proper
09:31 sorear (not Poway.  I won't tell you which one)
09:31 roland333 haha, i'm not worried about that.
09:32 Teratogen We used to travel from Phoenix to San Diego to vacation when I was a kid, we made the obligatory pit stops at Yuma and El Centro.
09:33 dakkar joined #perl6
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09:33 * grondilu couldn't compile rakudo :(
09:33 masak good antenoon, #perl6
09:33 roland333 'ello 'ello
09:33 sorear g'day masak.
09:34 roland333 So did anyone have any other input about the job market for perl programmers where they are?  Especially people in Europe?
09:34 au ⟉ masak
09:34 roland333 parabola forward slash?  What is the meaning of that
09:34 JimmyZ_ good afternoon, masak!
09:34 jnthn o/ masak
09:34 sorear I misread that as づ
09:34 au roland333: it's one-half of the full ⟈⟉ gesture. :)
09:35 jnthn masak: Is the meaning of "antenoon" something like "I got up late and don't want to admit it's almost afternoon"? :)
09:35 roland333 still no idea of the meaning au.
09:35 au roland333: ok. if you see \o/ around here, the \ / parts are arms and "o" is head.
09:36 sorear I think au is trying to tell us that she has a very wide head.
09:36 roland333 yeap, got that.
09:36 au so o/ means, roughly, waving hello (or goodbye, depending on rtl/ltr'ness).
09:36 roland333 so o/ is going up for a high five?
09:36 roland333 ahh.
09:36 roland333 close, gives you an insight to my mentality.
09:36 au :)
09:36 roland333 and rtl/ltr?
09:36 tarch_ joined #perl6
09:36 sorear don't worry, we're all a little mental.
09:36 roland333 haha
09:36 sorear lefttoright
09:36 masak jnthn: sir, you know me too well. :)
09:36 roland333 ahhh.
09:37 roland333 My friend scott would fit right in too.
09:37 roland333 Completely mental.
09:37 sorear roland333: masak and jnthn are in Sweden
09:37 masak that's mental in itself.
09:37 roland333 Swedes!  Do you need perl programmers here?
09:37 roland333 *there?
09:37 sorear for values of "in" that may not include "right now"
09:38 roland333 sorear you lost me.
09:38 roland333 meaning they're travelling?
09:38 masak well, I can't speak for all of Sweden, but the more Perl programmers, the better.
09:38 * masak is in Sweden *right now*
09:38 roland333 haha
09:38 sorear the eurozone has no internal borders.  it's very common for people to make trips across national lines for purposes like shopping or going to work
09:39 roland333 Gotcha.  Knew that but couldn't make the connection clearly.
09:39 jerome_ joined #perl6
09:39 sorear I happen to know that masak and jnthn are currently employed in Sweden, but this gives me incomplete information about where they live or currently are
09:39 sorear although I admit it's unlikely masak lives in Portugal.
09:39 roland333 masak, seriously though, if I turned myself into a rip-ass perl programmer do you think I could get a job in sweden/europe?
09:40 * sorear wonders if they have a rail tunnel through the Pyrennes yet
09:40 roland333 two wise perlheads told me to go learn python but i'm stubborn.
09:40 sorear I haven't bothered to learn Python yet.
09:40 roland333 If i can earn enough to feed myself and have a roof over my head doing something interesting i'm happy.
09:40 sorear I can get away with this because I know more languages than I can easily count.
09:40 roland333 haha
09:41 roland333 how many fingers do you have?
09:41 sorear 10
09:41 roland333 well shit, i'm impressed.
09:41 roland333 is perl your favorite?
09:41 sorear semantically difficult, that is.  Should I count mc68000 assembly and x86 assembly as different languages?
09:42 roland333 incomplete data.
09:42 roland333 $sorear:
09:42 sorear I don't really have a "favorite" as such.
09:42 sorear I've been using Perl, C#, and C a lot lately.
09:42 roland333 Wait, didn't you say you've never had a job?
09:42 moritz somehow that reminds of bacek++, who says that English is his fourth language, after Russion, rude Russian and very rude Russian :-)
09:42 sorear Yes.
09:42 roland333 lol
09:43 roland333 why aren't you making money with you skill?
09:43 sorear Once you've mastered the fundamentals of programming, picking up additional languages is no big deal.
09:44 sorear J took me four days, and that's about as exotic a language as you can get without getting into deliberately-obfuscated territory.
09:45 sorear Learning at least one assembly language helps a lot and I recommend it to anyone.
09:46 jnthn sorear: Note, Sweden ain't in the eurozone. It is in the EU though. (Eurozone is that slightly hosed single currency thing.)
09:46 jnthn And yes, I can freely live/work in any EU country. :)
09:46 sorear ah, right
09:47 sorear I'm thinking of the Maastrict treaty maybe?  this is what I get for trying to talk about a place I don't live in at 2am
09:47 roland333 Dutch dutch dutch.
09:48 roland333 So, sorear.  Why no make the money?
09:48 arnsholt sorear: Schengen (modulo spelling), probably
09:48 masak roland333: I think you could get a job in Sweden. I also think you should learn Perl really well. start now.
09:49 roland333 Masak.  THank you sir.  I take your meaning and had the same thought.  I will be back later.
09:49 arnsholt Schengen is the one that establishes passport-free travel and such
09:49 masak roland333: but the two may or may not have any causal relation. I wouldn't say there are extremely many Perl jobs here, compared to, say .NET jobs.
09:49 masak there aren't 0 Perl jobs either. but you have to look around a bit.
09:49 sorear arnsholt: yes, looked it up and that's definitely what I mean
09:49 jnthn There's more .Net jobs than decent .net developers here :)
09:49 roland333 Masak, i'm gonna go study perl for awhile.
09:50 jnthn Though I can't say the jobs are always decent. ;)
09:50 roland333 I'll be back tomorrow hopefully.
09:50 sorear I wonder if I count as a decent .net developer.
09:50 grondilu compiling rakudo:  Unrecognized nqp:: opcode 'nqp::div_In' at line 6640, near ");\n    }\n "
09:50 sorear My use of the placeform is certainly unorthodox.
09:50 roland333 Night all, Thanks for being so interesting and personable.  See ya!
09:50 sorear bye roland333.
09:50 roland333 "goodbye, world"
09:50 sorear I, too, require the zees.
09:51 sorear dmr :(
09:51 roland333 *"goodbye, world/n";
09:51 roland333 :)
09:51 * sorear out
09:51 jnthn 'night, sorear
09:52 Teratogen sleep? just take more caffeine!
09:52 moritz grondilu: that means your NQP is too old
09:52 grondilu so what should I do?
09:52 grondilu --gen-nqp?
09:53 au --gen-parrot ?
09:53 * grondilu tries perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp
09:55 jnthn That should do it
09:55 * grondilu had totally forgotten that this should be done from times to times
09:56 arnsholt If you skim the list of changed files when you pull, and NQP_REVISION is updated, you have to redo NQP
09:56 moritz erm
09:56 arnsholt Or perhaps not?
09:56 moritz doesn't the build even complain if NQP is too old?
09:57 moritz but yes, when NQP_REVISION changes, you have to rebuild nqp
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09:57 arnsholt Configure complains, IIRC
09:57 grondilu I had no compaint whatsoever :/
09:57 moritz ah, I think it only complains if Makefile is out of date
09:57 arnsholt But if you just git pull && make it'll chug along I think
09:57 grondilu I did git pull && make and no complain :/
10:00 moritz grondilu: are you building in parallel (ie MAKE_OPTIONS contains a -j flag or so)?
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10:02 moritz thing is, when I locally change my NQP_REVISION, I get
10:02 moritz $ make
10:02 moritz NQP 2012.01-10-g7f521e3 is too old (2012.01-165-g790fc9a required), run something like
10:02 moritz ...
10:02 grondilu moritz: I doubt so, but I would have to check the makefile to make sure
10:03 moritz grondilu: don't check the makefile, it's either in your environment, or not at all
10:04 PerlPilot joined #perl6
10:04 grondilu then no.
10:04 dakkar joined #perl6
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10:06 pothos joined #perl6
10:06 moritz then I don't understand what's wrong :(
10:07 moritz but I've seen lots of build fail due to this particular NQP revision bump, much more than with any other single one before
10:07 grondilu I'm still waiting for the second attempt to end anyway.  Maybe it'll work fine with the new NQP
10:07 moritz hm, curious, the new NQP revision is 10 commits after the last NQP tag
10:08 moritz if some function compares it lexicographically instead of as a number, that might explain it...
10:08 masak sounds like a decent guess.
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10:09 grondilu AHHH it still failed :(
10:10 moritz but cmp_rev uses <=>, not cmp
10:12 grondilu full error log:  http://s0.barwen.ch/~grondilu/err-rakudo
10:13 moritz grondilu: what does   ./install/bin/nqp -v  report as nqp version?
10:14 grondilu This is nqp version 2012.01-10-g2246b9d built on parrot 4.0.0 revision RELEASE_4_0_0-85-g8a1265a
10:14 grondilu hum not as new as expected, right?
10:15 moritz oh wtf
10:16 moritz git log 2012.01-10-g2246b9d   reports as first commit  2246b9dd83c89d06e9fee678b226562fec08eaa0   Fix preclim handling in operator precedence parser
10:16 moritz but
10:17 moritz $ git describe origin/master
10:17 moritz 2012.01-10-g7f521e3
10:17 grondilu actualy when I do perl Configure --gen-parrot --gen-nqp I get only a short message.   It doesn't seem to be compiling anything.
10:17 moritz note that it's a different short sha1
10:17 grondilu git describe origin/master => ZA-1975-gb2cd763
10:18 moritz grondilu: in nqp, not in rakudo
10:18 moritz so, there are two different commits that describe themselves as 2012.01-10-something
10:18 grondilu 2012.01-10-g2246b9d
10:18 moritz even though they appear in the same branch
10:19 grondilu I did a 'git pull' inside nqp and I got a weird message about branches
10:19 moritz yes, because you're not a branch yet
10:20 * grondilu is confused
10:20 moritz git checkout master
10:20 moritz git pull
10:20 moritz should help
10:21 moritz oh, I guess I know what's happening
10:22 moritz jnthn++ cherry-picked a commit from master to another branch, where it then got a higher commit count since the last tag
10:22 grondilu ./install/bin/nqp -v still tells me 2012.01-10-g2246b9d
10:23 dalek nqp: bcde9c4 | moritz++ | README:
10:23 dalek nqp: bump copyright year in README
10:23 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bcde9c4138
10:23 grondilu any other idea?
10:23 moritz grondilu: just a sec
10:24 dalek rakudo/nom: c1243d6 | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
10:24 dalek rakudo/nom: bump NQP revision, in the hope that this fixes the build
10:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c1243d6ae8
10:24 moritz grondilu: try to git pull rakudo, and then try again to perl Configure.pl --gen-nqp
10:25 grondilu ok now it seems that nqp is actually getting compiled :)
10:26 grondilu so I guess that should help
10:26 grondilu thanks
10:30 grondilu unfortunately I'm running out of battery power so I won't be able to tell you today if it finally worked out.
10:31 moritz no hurry; though I do think it'll work out fine
10:31 moritz and for the release we make a new nqp tag, so that won't go wrong
10:35 * grondilu is trying to compile rakudo now despite his low battery status
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10:42 jnthn Guess next release is only a few days away. :)
10:43 moritz yes. We should really find a release manager
10:43 jnthn Yes.
10:43 moritz I've done the last two releases, and while I might be able to chime in, I'd rather not be *the* release manager :-)
10:44 jnthn Aye
10:44 jnthn Would be good to spread the load here
10:45 * jnthn is happy to do the Star one this month
10:45 jnthn Would be good to spred that one too of course
10:50 tadzik I can probably make a release
10:51 Teratogen please release Perl 6.0.0
10:51 tadzik We could name it 6.0.0 if you wish, but I don't think that'd help anything
10:52 Teratogen ok =(
10:56 fsergot joined #perl6
10:58 fsergot o/
10:58 lateau__ joined #perl6
10:59 tadzik \o
10:59 jnthn hi, fsergot
10:59 grondilu ok, compilation succeeded.  Thanks.
11:00 grondilu gotta go now
11:00 moritz \o
11:25 lateau__ perl6: -+-+1
11:25 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo c1243d, niecza v14-51-g3474558:  ( no output )
11:26 soimort joined #perl6
11:28 lateau__ perl6: ++1
11:29 p6eval rakudo c1243d: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in sub prefix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2553␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/oHSrEWM60_:1␤␤»
11:29 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** Can't modify constant item: VInt 1␤    at /tmp/PPld51YZjX line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
11:29 p6eval ..niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤  at /tmp/AmZRBCCdT3 line 0 (mainline @ 1) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3783 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3784 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib…
11:29 lateau__ perl6: say -(-(1));
11:29 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo c1243d, niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:30 soimort joined #perl6
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11:31 moritz note that the longest prefix is supposed to win, which is why ++$i parses as prefix:<++>($i) and not as +(+($i))
11:32 moritz LTM++
11:32 fsergot perl6: say - -1;
11:32 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo c1243d, niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:33 fsergot :)
11:33 flussence perl6: say +\+1
11:33 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo c1243d: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:33 p6eval ..niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Capture as a number␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 255 (Any.Numeric @ 5) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/98HEC5vlG4 line 1 (mainline @ 2…
11:33 flussence perl6: say +\ +1
11:33 p6eval pugs b927740, niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:33 p6eval ..rakudo c1243d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤You can't backslash that at line 1, near " +1"␤»
11:33 flussence yes I can :(
11:34 lestrrat joined #perl6
11:34 lateau__ :)
11:34 fsergot hmm
11:35 moritz .oO( but I won't parse you if you do )
11:35 fsergot nom: - \-0
11:35 p6eval nom c1243d:  ( no output )
11:35 fsergot nom: say - \-0
11:35 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«-1␤»
11:35 fsergot -1 :)
11:35 fsergot ?
11:35 moritz WAT?
11:35 moritz nom: say \-0
11:35 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:36 moritz perl6: say - \-0
11:36 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Capture as a number␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 255 (Any.Numeric @ 5) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/ld6qURXNU7 line 1 (mainline @ 2…
11:36 p6eval ..rakudo c1243d: OUTPUT«-1␤»
11:36 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:36 fsergot rakudo's bug?
11:36 moritz nom: say (\-0).WHAT
11:36 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«Capture()␤»
11:36 moritz fsergot: no, might be legit
11:36 moritz fsergot: prefix \ creates a capture, with value 0
11:36 moritz and prefix:<-> then numifies it
11:37 moritz which evaluates the the number of elements
11:37 moritz which is 1
11:37 moritz and then that 1 is negated
11:37 fsergot What is legit?
11:37 masak "legitimate"
11:37 masak means about the same as "allowed", "correct".
11:37 moritz legit, I, mate!
11:38 fsergot masak++ thanks.
11:38 masak the word stems from Latin lēgitimāre, "to make lawful"
11:38 fsergot nom: -say  \- -4
11:38 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«4␤»
11:38 fsergot nom: say - \- -4
11:38 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«-1␤»
11:40 fsergot It will be always -1? :)
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11:41 fsergot nom: say (\-100).WHAT;
11:41 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«Capture()␤»
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11:55 fsergot perl6: say- 1;
11:56 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/AEdyEzBzZx line 1:â�¤------> [32msay[33mâ��[31m- 1;[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/…
11:56 p6eval ..pugs b927740, rakudo c1243d: OUTPUT«␤»
11:56 fsergot nom: say+ 1;
11:56 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«␤»
11:58 fsergot It should return an error, shouldn't it? :)
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12:04 JimmyZ_ fsergot: I don't think so
12:05 fsergot JimmyZ_: why? :)
12:05 JimmyZ_ nom: say (say+ 1); say (say- 1);
12:05 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«␤2␤␤0␤»
12:06 JimmyZ_ nom: say (say);  say +(say);
12:06 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«␤True␤␤1␤»
12:07 fsergot Oh, right.
12:07 fsergot I didn't think about it.
12:07 fsergot JimmyZ_++
12:08 moritz nom: say (\-1).perl
12:08 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«Capture.new()␤»
12:13 * moritz tries to come up with a better Capture.perl
12:13 fsergot nom: say ().perl
12:13 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«()␤»
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12:46 moritz nom: say Capture.new(:list<a b c>)
12:46 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«get_iter() not implemented in class 'Parcel'␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:3972␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:6065␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Cke7sM8_Do:1␤␤»
12:49 jnthn That's probably a bug in Capture.new
12:49 moritz yes
12:49 jnthn Or a NYI Capture.new
12:49 moritz well, Capture as a submethod BUILD
12:50 moritz but it doesn't account for the fact that :list will be a perl 6 list, while it internally uses an RPA
12:50 jnthn ah
12:50 jnthn yeah, it'll need to figger that out
12:50 * moritz tries
12:51 * jnthn swears lots at $dayjob
12:51 moritz jnthn: is there an easy way to fail a match that has already succeeded (for :exhaustive)
12:52 jnthn This thingy compiles sufficiently slowly that it makes Rakduo's CORE.setting compilation feel nippy...
12:52 moritz woah
12:52 jnthn moritz: Not sure sure what you mean by "already suceeded"
12:53 moritz consider m:exhaustive/.+/
12:53 moritz I thought the appraoch would be to have simply match once
12:53 moritz collect the Match object
12:53 moritz and then force the engine to backtrack
12:54 moritz ah, "force to backtrack" is probably what I meant by "fail"
12:54 jnthn $match.CURSOR.'!cursor_next'() should do that, iirc
12:54 moritz oh
12:54 moritz I'll try that
12:55 jnthn nom: my $m = 'abc' ~~ /.+/; say $m; my $m2 = $m.CURSOR.'!cursor_next'().MATCH; say $m2
12:55 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«=> <abc>␤␤=> <ab>␤␤»
12:55 moritz \o/
12:55 moritz then I'll try to hack in :exhaustive
12:56 jnthn moritz: How hard is <~~> ooc?
12:56 jnthn moritz: You may find <( and )> quite accessible too
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12:59 moritz yes, I thought about <( and )> too
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13:01 moritz iirc <~~> requires the step from Match object to the part of the regex that produced it
13:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 92aeec2 | moritz++ | docs/ROADMAP:
13:05 dalek rakudo/nom: add :exhaustive to ROADMAP
13:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/92aeec2c96
13:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 4130f6f | moritz++ | src/core/Capture.pm:
13:05 dalek rakudo/nom: Capture.perl and fix Capture.BUILD
13:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4130f6fe9f
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13:22 moritz https://gist.github.com/1869161 # exhaustive regex matching, as prototyped outside the setting
13:23 moritz nom: https://gist.github.com/1869161
13:23 p6eval nom c1243d: OUTPUT«abracadabbra␤abracada␤abraca␤abra␤   acadabbra␤   acada␤   aca␤     adabbra␤     ada␤       abbra␤»
13:23 masak nice!
13:25 moritz that's another example why I just love Perl 6 :-)
13:32 jnthn moritz++
13:32 moritz I just fear that integrating it with Str.match is going to be pain
13:34 moritz because there are so many cases to consider when various adverbs interact
13:37 moritz I think the best possible approach to implementing Str.match properly is 3-layered
13:37 moritz lowest level abstracts away matching of regexes vs. matching of strings
13:37 moritz one level above handles :g, :ov, :ex
13:38 moritz and the highest level then handles :x, :nth and all that fun
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13:50 dalek specs: 96bd7e5 | moritz++ | S09-data.pod:
13:50 dalek specs: [S09] standard hashes coerce the keys to Str
13:50 dalek specs:
13:50 dalek specs: They don't type check against Str
13:50 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/96bd7e5cbe
13:50 dalek specs: 208eabf | moritz++ | S05-regex.pod:
13:50 dalek specs: [S05] be a bit more precise in :nth wording
13:50 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/208eabfaee
14:00 masak both those spec commits look like feedback into the spec from implementing bits of it :)
14:01 moritz yes-ish
14:02 moritz (partially just pondering how to implement it)
14:05 masak ah.
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14:09 masak niecza: my $s = 'foo'; substr($s, 2, 1) = '!'; say $s
14:09 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«fo!␤»
14:09 masak \o/
14:09 masak nom: my $s = 'foo'; substr($s, 2, 1) = '!'; say $s
14:09 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/YSOMy8l_ep:1␤␤»
14:10 masak I'm a bit surprised that people are not asking more often for this feature.
14:10 masak it's totally horrible, and a special case, and ugly, but it's very convenient when you need it.
14:10 moritz it's easy enough to do with four-arg substr, no?
14:10 masak nom: my $s = 'foo'; substr($s, 2, 1, '!'); say $s
14:10 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 4 but expected between 2 and 3␤  in sub substr at src/gen/CORE.setting:1896␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/BHbvQsKsPJ:1␤␤»
14:10 moritz hm
14:10 * masak grins
14:10 moritz maybe not :-)
14:10 jnthn It's most horrible because you don't know when you're going to need it, so have to always pessimize.
14:11 jnthn I guess we can multi-dispatch on rw-ness or something...maybe.
14:11 moritz but shouldn't be too hard to implement in the four-arg way
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14:15 masak jnthn: would it help to make it syntactical? so we only allow the 'substr($s, 2, 1) =' form, but not passing it around as a portable lvalue?
14:15 masak if that helps, I still think that covers 99% of all the needs.
14:16 * moritz is pretty sure it would help
14:16 felher moritz: about your ex-gist: whats that '!cursor_next'()?
14:16 moritz we could dispatch it to a separate lvalue-substr routine
14:16 moritz felher: it's part of the low level API of the regex engine
14:16 moritz felher: a way to force it backtrace
14:16 felher moritz: ah, okay, thanks :)
14:17 moritz syntactically it's a method call with a non-identifer
14:17 moritz nom: my $to-call = <sin, sqrt>.pick; say 4."$to-call"()
14:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'sin,' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/eElo6BP7fx:1␤␤»
14:17 moritz nom: my $to-call = <sin sqrt>.pick; say 4."$to-call"()
14:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:17 moritz nom: my $to-call = <sin sqrt>.pick; say 4."$to-call"()
14:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:17 moritz nom: my $to-call = <sin sqrt>.pick; say 4."$to-call"()
14:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:17 moritz nom: my $to-call = <sin sqrt>.pick; say 4."$to-call"()
14:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«-0.756802495307928␤»
14:18 jnthn Took a while to be random... :)
14:19 felher moritz: does the '!' has anything to do with 'private'. Or is the whole '!cursor_next' just a name?
14:19 flussence I can sort of picture in my head how substr can work... return an lvalue sub that also does .Str
14:20 flussence I've no idea how hard actually doing that is, mind you
14:20 flussence (that also has the advantage of making it lazy :)
14:21 moritz felher: the whole thing is just a name, but the ! indicates private-by-convention
14:26 plutoid joined #perl6
14:27 felher moritz: how would i declare such a method? Do i need to go meta for that?
14:28 masak nom: class A {}; A.^add_method('!foo', sub { say "OH HAI" }); A.'!foo'()
14:28 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in sub <anon> at /tmp/RlwV0JFN62:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/RlwV0JFN62:1␤␤»
14:29 masak nom: class A {}; A.^add_method('!foo', sub -> $self { say "OH HAI" }); A.'!foo'()
14:29 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed block at line 1, near "-> $self {"␤»
14:29 masak nom: class A {}; A.^add_method('!foo', sub ($self) { say "OH HAI" }); A.'!foo'()
14:29 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
14:29 moritz felher: yes, go meta, or do it in NQP :-)
14:29 felher Okay, meta it isl
14:29 felher moritz++, masak++: Thanks folks :)
14:30 masak phenny: sv en "gå och meta"?
14:30 phenny masak: "go meta" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
14:30 masak really means "go fishing".
14:30 felher :D
14:32 skids joined #perl6
14:35 fsergot will be later. o/
14:35 JimmyZ looks like 'method !foo() { ... } ' works in nqp, but not in rakudo
14:36 moritz huh?
14:36 jnthn JimmyZ: It works *properly* in Rakudo.
14:36 jnthn JimmyZ: NQP has a cheating version.
14:37 moritz nom: class A { method !foo() { say 'in !foo' }; method x { self!foo } }; A.new.x
14:37 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«in !foo␤»
14:37 moritz seems to work just fine
14:38 JimmyZ sorry, misunderstand
14:38 att_ joined #perl6
14:45 moritz std: sub f(:x(:$y)) { }
14:45 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
14:45 moritz std: sub f(:$x(:$y)) { }
14:45 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
14:45 moritz should that really parse?
14:45 moritz perl6: sub f(:$x(:$y)) { }
14:45 PacoAir joined #perl6
14:45 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "(:$"␤    expecting word character, "?", "!", trait, "=", default value, "-->" or ")"␤    at /tmp/7zrpYE03OB line 1, column 10␤»
14:45 p6eval ..niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/FVOhpT8Ra4 line 1:â�¤------> [32msub f(:[33mâ��[31m$x(:$y)) { }[0mâ�¤  $y is declared but not used at /tmp/FVOhpT8Ra4 line 1:â�¤------> [32msub f(:$x(:[33mâ��[31m$y)) { }[0mâ�¤  &f is declared but n…
14:45 p6eval ..rakudo 4130f6:  ( no output )
14:45 masak no idea.
14:45 moritz or is that parsed as a subsignature?
14:46 masak maybe.
14:46 lestrrat joined #perl6
14:47 moritz
14:48 lestrrat joined #perl6
14:58 * moritz just had an awesome idea
14:59 moritz you know, recompiling the setting always takes ages on my machine
14:59 moritz so I prototype stuff outside the setting
14:59 moritz but then I have trouble running tests
14:59 moritz so, the solution is to put the prototype stuff in SAFE.setting
14:59 moritz and hack the harness to run ./perl6 --setting=SAFE
15:00 moritz now i can use 'make spectest' and 'make localtest' AND have faster compilation cycles
15:00 jnthn :)
15:01 ascrazy joined #perl6
15:06 moritz nom: my @a := 1..*; @a := @a[1, 3 ... *].list
15:06 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'gimme' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in method postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1159␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/dJ08aEvIzI:1␤␤»
15:06 moritz nom: my @a = 1..*; @a := @a[1, 3 ... *].list
15:06 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:07 moritz nom: say Range ~~ Positional
15:07 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:07 moritz well, then the binding should work
15:07 moritz nom: my @a := 1..3
15:07 p6eval nom 4130f6:  ( no output )
15:07 moritz nom: my @a = 1...*; @a := @a[1, 3 ... *].list
15:08 moritz nom: my @a := 1...*; @a := @a[1, 3 ... *].list
15:08 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:08 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:08 moritz nom: my @a := 1...*; @a := @a[1, 3 ... *]
15:08 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:08 moritz nom: my @a := 1...*; @a := @a[1, 3 ... 11].list; say @a.perl
15:08 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12).list␤»
15:09 * jnthn wonders if indexing is lazy.
15:09 moritz nom: say (1..3)[1, 3 ... 11].perl
15:09 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(2,)␤»
15:09 jnthn oh, but maybe the * there should be treated differently
15:10 * moritz submits rakudobug for the gimme not found error earlier
15:10 masak moritz++
15:11 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[1]
15:11 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
15:11 moritz yes, that's the weird thing. It works, unless bound to a @-variable first
15:11 jnthn nom: my @a := 1..3; say @a[1]
15:11 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
15:12 jnthn Not that simple :)
15:12 moritz nom: my @a := 1..3; say @a[1, 2]
15:12 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2 3␤»
15:12 jnthn nom: my @a := 1..*; say @a[1]
15:13 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
15:13 jnthn nom: my @a := 1..*; say @a[1...*]
15:13 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'gimme' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in method postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1159␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/6GKqkBGBmp:1␤␤»
15:13 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[1...*]
15:13 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'gimme' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in method postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1159␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/dnb73Jt93d:1␤␤»
15:13 jnthn Doesn't need binding after all.
15:13 jnthn nom: say (1, 2, 3)[1...*]
15:13 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2 3␤»
15:13 lestrrat joined #perl6
15:14 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[1..*]
15:14 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'gimme' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in method postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1159␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/biKNhuOQid:1␤␤»
15:14 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[1]
15:14 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2␤»
15:14 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[1,2]
15:14 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2 3␤»
15:14 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[*]
15:14 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
15:14 jnthn nom: say (1..3)[]
15:14 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
15:14 jnthn Hm.
15:15 moritz ah
15:15 moritz needs infinite in the index
15:25 masak nom: say (1..3)[Inf]
15:25 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu %_!)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:657␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2249␤  in method exists at src/gen/CORE.setting:4797␤  in method at_p…
15:25 masak nom: say (1..3)[1..Inf]
15:25 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'gimme' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in method postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1159␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/A0qqMpQbnp:1␤␤»
15:26 kaare_ joined #perl6
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15:41 moritz nom: say nqp::list() ~~ Positional
15:41 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
15:41 moritz ouch
15:41 jnthn Well, that's just asking for it.
15:41 jnthn nqp::list is making an RPA.
15:41 arnsholt Heh. I don't think that's supposed to happen ^_^
15:41 jnthn Not a Perl 6 list.
15:42 jnthn arnsholt: I'm not particularly surprised it does.
15:42 arnsholt Yeah, when you say it's an RPA I'm less surprised
15:43 moritz well, if you use nqp:: opcodes, you
15:43 moritz 're on your own
15:43 arnsholt Reaching in and touching C-ish guts tend to do weird stuff
15:43 jnthn Yeah. SEGV is a bit harsh.
15:43 masak nom: say nqp::list().^methods
15:43 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'dispatch:<.^>' not found for invocant of class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/H1obtRwkL0:1␤␤»
15:43 masak nom: say nqp::list().WHAT
15:43 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Can only use get_what on a SixModelObject␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/AUR2kaZzwr:1␤␤»
15:43 jnthn But nothing good comes from breaking the type system.
15:43 masak nom: say nqp::list()
15:43 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:6078␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/CJCkCk3qdi:1␤␤»
15:43 masak nom: say nqp::list() + 2
15:43 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
15:44 * moritz wants a .[] that can deal with infinite series
15:46 jnthn moritz: Trouble is that we expect .[] to return a Parcel.
15:46 * masak wants http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PimcPiflPire
15:46 jnthn iirc anyway
15:47 moritz jnthn: I know. But it means I have to re-implement slicing for :nth
15:48 jnthn ah.
15:48 * jnthn can kinda see the utility of it
15:48 jnthn (generally, not just for :nth)
15:49 moritz I wouldn't mind a List.lazy-monotonic-slice method or so
15:49 jnthn masak: Patches welcome ;)
15:49 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:49 jnthn masak: Or maybe it's be better in a module :P
15:50 arnsholt masak: Oooh, now I want it too =)
15:50 * jnthn didn't know those existed. Curious even if impossible :)
15:51 arnsholt But hyper can be used to do pmc (if not pimc =) at least
15:52 jnthn Something that can crack any crypto system in instantly would be a great killer app though. I'm sure if we did that, Perl 6 would get instant adoption from governments worldwide :)
15:52 lestrrat joined #perl6
15:53 masak yes. I've always loved how those three (pire possibly excluded) are tantalizingly close to being possible. :)
15:53 masak (in a "maybe in a parallel universe" sense)
15:55 arnsholt Yeah, pimc and pifl can be sort-ofed with lazy collections, but pire really hinges on the whole "parallel infinite" thing in a different way
15:56 lestrrat joined #perl6
15:57 masak right.
15:57 masak sort of makes me feel like there are Cantorian cardinalities of impossibility :)
15:57 lestrrat joined #perl6
15:58 masak iota_0, iota_1, iota_2...
15:59 masak oh wait. wrong alphabet.
15:59 masak yodh_0, yodh_1, yodh_2...
16:01 moritz d'oh^1, d'oh^2, d'oh^3
16:04 JimmyZ joined #perl6
16:06 masak :P
16:09 arnsholt masak: IIRC there are actually classes of different trans-Turing computability classes
16:10 thou joined #perl6
16:11 masak arnsholt: yes. I wish I knew more about computability classes.
16:13 MayDaniel joined #perl6
16:13 zipf joined #perl6
16:17 tarch__ joined #perl6
16:23 * masak decommutes
16:24 * jnthn also
16:28 * TimToady suspects backlogging involves one of those cardinalities of impossibility; you guys say too many interesting things while I'm asleep...
16:52 pmichaud good mroning, #perl6
16:53 pmichaud *morning
16:54 TimToady lots of good moroning last night too :)
17:03 JimmyZ morning, pmichaud
17:08 GlitchMr joined #perl6
17:08 dalek roast: 247a066 | coke++ | S (6 files):
17:08 dalek roast: niecza (auto)unfudge
17:08 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/247a066284
17:18 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:20 [Coke] pmichaud: hio.
17:21 ascrazy hello, in perl6 i can bind Callable object to some context?
17:21 ascrazy such as bind in javascript or ruby
17:26 TimToady perl6: sub foo (&doit,$toit) { doit $toit }; say foo &cos, pi
17:26 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 4130f6, niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«-1␤»
17:26 TimToady do you mean like that?
17:27 TimToady or are you talking about fake dynamic scopes of some sort?
17:29 TimToady the word "context" is very, very overloaded in the realm of language design
17:29 TimToady so we'll need an example of what you mean
17:29 TimToady like a rosettacode page or something
17:31 lestrrat joined #perl6
17:32 ascrazy in ruby
17:32 ascrazy class A; attr_accessor :name; end;
17:32 ascrazy a = A.new; a.name = "Hello';
17:32 ascrazy Proc.new{ print self.name }.bind(a).call #=> "Hello"
17:33 ascrazy this block called in context 'a'
17:33 TimToady looks like an anonymous method to me
17:36 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:37 ascrazy i can not found it in http://perlcabal.org/syn/
17:37 ascrazy if you know where to look, please help me
17:37 TimToady perl6: class A { has $.name is rw }; my A $a .= new; $a.name = "Hello"; (method () { say $.name }).assuming($a).()
17:37 p6eval rakudo 4130f6, niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Hello␤»
17:37 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "{"␤    expecting operator, ":", "," or ")"␤    at /tmp/gP6R3kPU3X line 1, column 77␤»
17:38 TimToady there you go
17:38 TimToady pretty much an exact equivalent, I think
17:39 TimToady we don't default attributes to rw, and methods are really just functions that treat their first argument as the object, so normal partial application is used for your "bind"
17:39 TimToady and there's no call method, you just call it :)
17:40 TimToady in other words, postcircumfix:<( )> is the call method
17:41 ascrazy great, thanks
17:42 am0c joined #perl6
17:47 TimToady pugs: class A { has $.name is rw }; my A $a .= new; $a.name = "Hello"; (method foo () { say $.name }).assuming($a).()
17:47 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "{"␤    expecting operator, ":", "," or ")"␤    at /tmp/ulOt6_tEsN line 1, column 81␤»
17:47 kaleem joined #perl6
17:47 TimToady I guess pugs doesn't grok method declarators there
17:48 TimToady pugs: class A { has $.name is rw }; my A $a .= new; $a.name = "Hello"; do { method foo () { say $.name } }.assuming($a).()
17:48 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«pugs: Missing invocant parameters in '&foo': 0 received, 1 missing␤»
17:48 TimToady now it's just messing up on the .assuming
17:54 TimToady moritz: yes, sub f(:$x(:$y)) { } is parsing as a subsignature; it's the parses-line-noise problem people keep complaining about in Perl :)
17:59 TimToady jnthn: the main point of lol is to have lists of lazy lists for subscripting; we can't get far on S09 without that
18:00 TimToady this also feels related to the problem of why we can't define recursive arrays like @hamming
18:01 TimToady perl6: my @foo; @foo := 1, @foo; say @foo[2]
18:01 p6eval rakudo 4130f6: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
18:01 p6eval ..niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:01 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«␤»
18:01 simcop2387 joined #perl6
18:03 TimToady well, TimToady was gonna recaulk his shower today, and he's still in his pajamas...
18:04 TimToady laters &
18:13 ksi joined #perl6
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18:33 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
18:52 mj41 joined #perl6
19:05 gv joined #perl6
19:20 skids nom: Capture.^roles.say;
19:20 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«␤»
19:47 Vlavv` joined #perl6
19:50 MayDaniel joined #perl6
19:59 PacoAir joined #perl6
20:17 ribayr joined #perl6
20:17 ribayr joined #perl6
20:32 TimToady perl6: constant @factorial = 1, [\*] 1 ... *; say @factorial[1];
20:32 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
20:32 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "@factorial"␤    expecting "=", context, ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/webLGgGwFX line 1, column 10␤»
20:32 p6eval ..rakudo 4130f6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot handle constant @factorial with non-literal value yet at line 1, near "; say @fac"␤»
20:32 TimToady sorear: ^^ nieczabug
20:33 pernatiy joined #perl6
20:34 TimToady nom: my @factorial := 1, [\*] 1 ... *; say @factorial[1];
20:34 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«1␤»
20:34 TimToady nom: my @factorial := 1, [\*] 1 ... *; say @factorial[5];
20:34 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«120␤»
20:34 TimToady niecza: my @factorial := 1, [\*] 1 ... *; say @factorial[5];
20:34 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
20:34 TimToady pugs: my @factorial := 1, [\*] 1 ... *; say @factorial[5];
20:34 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected " say"␤    at /tmp/djW2iOUnfS line 1, column 34␤»
20:34 localhost joined #perl6
20:35 TimToady pugs: my @factorial := 1, [\*](1 ... *); say @factorial[5];
20:35 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    at /tmp/WP1XGTLhPa line 1, column 34␤»
20:35 TimToady pugs: my @factorial := (1, [\*] 1 ... *); say @factorial[5];
20:35 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    at /tmp/zPWrL4zG76 line 1, column 35␤»
20:36 TimToady pugs: my (@factorial) := (1, [\*] 1 ... *); say @factorial[5];
20:36 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    at /tmp/qtEBbcoUaS line 1, column 37␤»
20:36 TimToady well, enough spam
20:44 GlitchMr joined #perl6
20:47 TimToady perl6: my (*@factorial) ::= 1, [\*] 1 ... *; say @factorial[5];
20:47 p6eval rakudo 4130f6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/BNaePvnVLO:1␤»
20:47 p6eval ..niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Cannot use bind operator with this LHS at /tmp/Kb6OAQw4LQ line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy (*@factorial) ::= 1, [\*] 1 ... *[33mâ��[31m; say @factorial[5];[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/COR…
20:47 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected " say"␤    at /tmp/ZJkTrREChV line 1, column 38␤»
20:47 TimToady whyever not?
20:48 PerlJam joined #perl6
20:50 skids does rakudo do signatures in declarations yet?  I thought that was NYI?
21:06 bkolera joined #perl6
21:08 tadzik 'evening #perl6
21:16 moritz \o
21:16 tadzik oh, moritz moritz
21:17 tadzik I got an email from someone of GPW, and I don't know what it says, and google translate doesn't make much sense :)
21:17 moritz an invoice?
21:17 tadzik no idea :) privmsg-ing you now
21:19 awwaiid skids, what sort of signature/declarations do you mean?
21:22 proller_ joined #perl6
21:23 [Coke] gpw?
21:24 moritz German perl Workshop
21:24 [Coke] ah.
21:30 proller_ joined #perl6
21:32 PacoAir joined #perl6
21:39 lestrrat joined #perl6
21:52 skids awwaiid: I was answering TimToady's "whyever not?"  WRT my (*@factorial) ::=
21:53 awwaiid ah
21:58 lestrrat joined #perl6
22:00 jferrero joined #perl6
22:08 sorear good * #perl6
22:28 sorear niecza: ([\*] 1 ... *)[5]
22:28 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558:  ( no output )
22:28 sorear niecza: say ([\*] 1 ... *)[5]
22:28 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«720␤»
22:28 sorear niecza: say @(1, ([\*] 1 ... *))[5]
22:28 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
22:28 masak evenin', #perl6
22:28 sorear niecza: say (@(1, ([\*] 1 ... *)))[5]
22:28 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
22:28 sorear o/ masak
22:29 * sorear wonders if roland333 will wait a week to come back
22:31 ascrazy nom: ([\*] 1, 1, 2, 3...*)[5]
22:31 p6eval nom 4130f6:  ( no output )
22:32 ascrazy nom: ([\*] 1, 1, 2, 3...*)[5].sat
22:32 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Method 'sat' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/BZBipQds0o:1␤␤»
22:32 ascrazy nom: ([\*] 1, 1, 2, 3...*)[5].say
22:32 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«120␤»
22:33 masak sorear: because studying Perl takes one week? :)
22:33 ascrazy nom: (1, [\*] 1 ...*)[5]
22:33 p6eval nom 4130f6:  ( no output )
22:33 ascrazy nom: (1, [\*] 1 ...*)[5].say
22:33 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«120␤»
22:37 jnthn evening, #perl6
22:38 tadzik 'evening jnthn
22:38 jnthn TimToady: When I mentioned Parcel I was talking about what's returned from a slicing operation.
22:38 jnthn hi tadzik
22:39 jnthn o/ pmichaud, if you're still about :)
22:41 sorear o/ jnthn
22:43 jnthn hi sorear
22:46 fsergot joined #perl6
22:46 fsergot o/
22:49 masak fsergot! \o/
22:53 lue joined #perl6
22:53 lue blag post! https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/two-years-of-perl-6/
22:53 lue And hello #perl6 ! o/
22:55 sorear o/ fsergot
22:55 sorear o/ lue
22:56 masak lue! \o/
22:58 masak nice post.
22:58 masak lue++
22:58 au o/ lue++ welcome back to this interactive non-fiction!
22:58 lue :) hello masak, sorear, and au o/
22:58 sorear o/ ao!
22:59 sorear au rather
22:59 au /o
22:59 * sorear hopes au is not too ao
23:00 masak lue: a single page is easier to Ctrl+F than paginated lists with 10 per page.
23:01 masak lue: and it's not like browsers are running out of vertical space :)
23:03 fsergot lue++ :-)
23:03 sorear oh, oops, ao is a kun thing
23:04 lue masak: ah, all true.
23:04 masak "a kun thing"?
23:04 jnthn Rakudo Death Star :D
23:04 fsergot all modules on one page suits me :-)
23:04 masak set phasers to death!
23:05 masak "I find your lack of speed... disappointing." -- "gggghrk!"
23:05 TimToady 青い read as 日本語, I presume
23:05 masak ah.
23:05 lue in retrospect, I've found CPAN quite annoying to use before (or at least, not super-simple)
23:06 masak lue: you should try metacpan.
23:06 * lue looks
23:06 masak lue: nowadays I mostly interact with metacpan through DuckDuckGo.
23:06 masak I just go '!cpan YAML' in the address field, and it magically finds stuff for me.
23:06 sorear cpanminus?
23:06 lue not that I've used CPAN more than a couple of times (aside from when I'm linked to a module's page there)
23:06 masak sorear: different axis :)
23:07 masak metacpan is the improved online presence, cpanminus is the improved module install client.
23:07 * lue will remember !cpan the next time he needs it
23:08 masak well, it works in Chrome after I set ddg as the default search engine.
23:08 sorear TimToady: are you still using ibus + anthy?
23:08 TimToady はい!
23:08 masak the bang syntax is particular to DuckDuckGo.
23:09 lue I've been using DuckDuckGo for a while now :) [not perfect, but great]
23:09 sorear TimToady: what do you do to enter » ?
23:09 TimToady Compose > >
23:09 sorear funny.
23:10 sorear on my system, Compose doesn't work if I have ibus running.
23:10 sorear I have to kill ibus for compose to wrok again
23:10 TimToady works fine here
23:10 jferrero joined #perl6
23:10 TimToady I do have "Input method off" though
23:11 TimToady I don't think that kills ibus
23:11 lue I use uim. Uim and X's compose key work great together everywhere for me, except emacs :/ (since I use compose way more often, I use env when starting emacs)
23:11 TimToady since the little keyboard is still there
23:13 sorear "little keyboard"?
23:13 TimToady sorear: the widget in the top bar
23:13 TimToady if I look in preferences/advanced there, I have checked "Use system keyboard layout"
23:14 TimToady maybe you need that to get Compose? (as well as having the compose key set up elsewhere)
23:15 TimToady IBus 1.3.9, running under Gnome
23:15 sorear hmm, interesting
23:15 sorear Compose works in gnome-terminal but stopped working in urxvt
23:16 TimToady I'm in gnome-terminal
23:17 sorear maybe I'll switch then.
23:17 * TimToady has been putting off upgrading his laptop to the latest Ubuntu, after the fiasco with the server...
23:18 sorear oww, black on white
23:18 TimToady not for me
23:18 sorear 青 » :>
23:18 TimToady there's a white-on-black you can pick
23:19 TimToady \ö/
23:27 tarch__ joined #perl6
23:36 colomon joined #perl6
23:40 whiteknight joined #perl6
23:42 dalek nqp/bs: 69ccfc7 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
23:42 dalek nqp/bs: Stubs need a fresh LexInfo for closure serialization to work. Gets us a little further with role serialization.
23:42 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/69ccfc7c25
23:44 sisar joined #perl6
23:52 betterworld joined #perl6
23:55 masak 'night, #perl6
23:55 jnthn 'night o/
23:58 rsimoes1 joined #perl6

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