Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-02-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 colomon \o
00:04 * jnthn figures he'll just gut the NQP::World role handling and do it over in the light of how Rakudo does it
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00:21 betterworld joined #perl6
00:23 * colomon is trying to remember what he wanted to do to niecza before he got sidetracked with the bag operators
00:26 am0c joined #perl6
00:27 sorear TimToady: I can't use gnome-terminal until I find a way that works to turn off this cursed blinked cursor
00:27 TimToady ah, well, doesn't bother me
00:27 frew joined #perl6
00:30 sorear I've tried using gconftool-2 but the settings don't "stick"
00:31 TimToady I bet quietfanatic would know, but he's off at college...
00:31 huf back in ancient times, you had to have gnome-session-daemon or something running to have apps see the things you set via the gconf editor
00:32 TimToady sorear: btw, did you see my /msg's?  I know it's easy not to see them in irssi...
00:33 sorear huf: If I set options within gnome-terminal itself, like bg color, it works fine.
00:33 huf you're running the whole gnome DE?
00:33 huf because then disregard everything i said.
00:35 sorear huf: I'm not running the gnome DE.
00:35 huf ahh.... yes, then something like what i used to do might apply
00:38 sorear What did you used to do?
00:38 huf well, some years ago i remember i had to start gnome-session-daemon from my .xsession to have apps see the settings
00:39 huf but i think that's gone now
00:39 huf is gconfd running?
00:39 huf someone seems to have started one on my behalf
00:40 sorear gconfd: command not found
00:40 huf 2715 /usr/lib/libgconf2-4/gconfd-2
00:40 huf this is what i have, it's running in my name and the ppid is 1
00:40 huf i have no idea who started it
00:40 huf not me, it's not in my xsession
00:41 huf i'm basically assuming it's important to gnome :)
00:41 sorear I don't have that running, and if I run the executable directly, it immediately exits without forking a daemon
00:43 betterworld joined #perl6
00:45 geekosaur gconfd / gconfd-2 is started automatically by any gnome-isprogram that uses the settings api
00:46 skids joined #perl6
00:46 geekosaur s/-ispr/-ish pr/
00:48 colomon TimToady: just realized I got multiset multiplication wrong.
00:49 TimToady I have no idea how it's officially defined...
00:49 colomon it's element-wise multiplication
00:49 colomon (just got that from Knuth!)
00:49 TimToady with missing elements 0?
00:49 colomon yes
00:49 TimToady that's what I'd expect
00:49 TimToady what did you do instead?
00:49 colomon I mean, that's not mentioned explicitly in the tiny writeup, but that's got to be it.
00:50 colomon min
00:50 TimToady hmm
00:50 TimToady right, which is what I said before
00:50 TimToady multiplying seems wrongish to me, if it's really a bag
00:51 colomon so, I'm also wondering if bag union bag should be a bag.
00:51 colomon there's a straightforward definition for it...
00:51 colomon (or bag union set, for that matter)
00:51 TimToady yes, I think bags are probably infective
00:52 colomon I apologize for jumping in and coding without trying to do any multiset research first.  :)
00:52 TimToady you and me both :)
00:53 colomon oh, wait, the multiplication thing is not the same symbol.
00:54 TimToady wp shows intersection as min
00:54 TimToady and now that I think of it, multiset multiplcation is based on the union symbol, not the intersection
00:55 colomon the operator I'm looking at here in Knuth is intersection-dot
00:55 colomon which doesn't seem to be in unicode?
00:55 TimToady .u multiset
00:55 phenny U+228C MULTISET (⊌)
00:55 TimToady .u ⊍
00:55 phenny U+228D MULTISET MULTIPLICATION (⊍)
00:56 TimToady .u ⊎
00:56 phenny U+228E MULTISET UNION (⊎)
00:56 TimToady those are the only ones that grepping for multiset gives
00:56 TimToady .u ⋿
00:56 phenny U+22FF Z NOTATION BAG MEMBERSHIP (⋿)
00:57 TimToady .u ⟅⟆
00:57 phenny U+27C5 LEFT S-SHAPED BAG DELIMITER (⟅)
00:57 phenny U+27C6 RIGHT S-SHAPED BAG DELIMITER (⟆)
00:57 TimToady there's also those
00:57 TimToady and that exhausts m:i/«bag»/
00:58 colomon I vote we make multiset multiplication the same as the "intersection-dot" operator, ie element-wise multiplication.
00:58 colomon at the very least, until we find a better definition somewhere!
00:59 TimToady sure
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00:59 TimToady are there any mathematical entities you might put in a bag that are naturally geometric?
01:00 sorear Balls?
01:00 sorear Although those are found more in urns than bags
01:01 sorear s/^/Colored /
01:02 colomon oooo, found a paper on multisets available online
01:02 colomon http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS/Reposito​ry/1.0/Disseminate?view=body&id=pdf​_1&handle=euclid.ndjfl/1093634995
01:03 colomon errr, may be too fundamental...
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01:16 dalek nqp/bs: 4ea3bcb | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: Start to clear up role handling a little; toss deserialization code and eliminate use of add_code_LEGACY.
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4ea3bcbd72
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: fee2122 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/World.pm:
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: Eliminate add_code_LEGACY, now all uses of it are gone.
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fee2122b5c
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: 8cddbe2 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: Gut NQP::World's role handling; we'll do something more like Rakudo does. Put in the simplest thing that could possibly work: making a code ref for the role body and passing it along to the meta-object. Actually passes the first three role tests anyway...
01:16 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8cddbe277e
01:16 jnthn Grr...this stuff is too fiddly for 2am...will continue tomorrow. :)
01:16 jnthn 'night
01:18 colomon \o
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01:25 sorear just tried kterm.  a o SP enter -> 猫 FAIL
01:26 TimToady meow!
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01:31 dalek roast: 0bf94c0 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
01:31 dalek roast: Fix tests for multiset multiplication -- they now test multiset multiplication rather than multiset intersection.
01:31 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0bf94c0023
01:31 dalek niecza: 75fe43c | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
01:31 dalek niecza: Fix multiset multiplication so that it's distinct from multiset intersection (which I will be implementing shortly).
01:31 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/75fe43c828
01:31 TimToady well, niau would be more suitable
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01:35 sorear not nyaa?
01:39 TimToady well, it was a pun on 似合う
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01:53 colomon ugh, not having a shortcut to say Bag | KeyBag is a pain
01:54 colomon errr, unless i can just say that?
01:54 colomon niecza: sub foo(Bag | KeyBag $a) { say $a; }; foo(bag(a=>10));
01:55 p6eval niecza v14-51-g3474558: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unable to parse signature at /tmp/8D2t7q6Qaq line 1:�------> [32msub foo([33m�[31mBag | KeyBag $a) { say $a; }; foo(bag(a=[0m�Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/8D2t7q6Qaq line 1:�------> [32msub foo(Bag | [33m�…
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02:00 TimToady a Bag role should encompass both, I'd think
02:01 TimToady KeyBag just adds mutability
02:01 TimToady or a Baggy role
02:05 colomon should it be a Bag role, or... hmmm
02:05 colomon I always feel more comfortable subtracting mutability
02:05 colomon Baggy role?
02:06 colomon (that's as in, how does going for the Baggy role sound to you)
02:11 TimToady I wouldn'ta suggested it if I didn't think it was okayish
02:20 colomon okay
02:24 [Coke] is the skip function supposed to have a leading count or a trailing count?
02:24 sorear I don't remember, but I know it switched a couple months ago
02:24 sorear trailing count.
02:25 [Coke] Danke.
02:29 [Coke] ... of course, just switching the args in pugs doesn't make the skip work. ah well. ;)
02:29 [Coke] phenny: ask masak to fix skip("reason", $count) in pugs.
02:29 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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02:42 dalek roast: 068fb14 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/ (2 files):
02:42 dalek roast: Bag union and bag intersection are infective, so move those tests.
02:42 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/068fb14b63
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02:56 dalek niecza: ffefe23 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
02:56 dalek niecza: Add role Baggy, Bag union, and Bag intersection.
02:56 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/ffefe23787
03:02 [Coke] "total",      3009,     0,  1722,    14,  4745, 23233
03:02 [Coke] (pugs)
03:03 dalek roast: a842b80 | coke++ | S0 (8 files):
03:03 dalek roast: pugs fudge
03:03 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a842b80582
03:03 colomon [Coke]++
03:04 dalek Pugs.hs: 58459c2 | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
03:04 dalek Pugs.hs: run fudged tests
03:04 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/58459c2b4e
03:20 [Coke] Looks like I'm back up to 2300 more "LHF".
03:20 [Coke] 5K passing tests after this hiatus is pretty good, I think.
03:21 colomon nod
03:21 [Coke] -> zzz
03:22 TimToady o
03:22 TimToady /
03:24 colomon sleep soon....
03:25 colomon though I hate going to sleep with a bug...
03:26 colomon got it!
03:27 * colomon -> zzz
03:27 TimToady \
03:27 TimToady o
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05:03 * sorear unsubscribes from parrot-dev due to CI emails
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06:43 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: 6a5b656 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
06:43 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: refactor Str.match to be more modular
06:43 dalek rakudo/match-refactor:
06:43 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: also implements :exhaustive and :nth
06:43 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6a5b656a0d
06:43 sorear o/ GlitchMr
06:43 GlitchMr Hi, sorear
06:44 tadzik good morning
06:44 sorear good morning tadzik.
06:45 sorear could someone, preferably with Cantonese knowledge, help me in #parrot? :|
06:46 * sorear wonders how much longer it will take before people start saying Guandongese, and if pinyin will even still be used then
06:47 co_ajak_cewe_ngi joined #perl6
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06:47 bonsaikitten I guess pinyin is going to stay for a while
06:47 JimmyZ joined #perl6
06:47 bonsaikitten it's convenient, even with all its limitations
06:47 sorear o/ JimmyZ
06:47 sorear bonsaikitten: I'm referring to the fact that Wade-Giles WILL NOT DIE
06:48 takesako joined #perl6
06:48 bonsaikitten c'est la vie
06:48 sorear I don't know what the successor to pinyin will be called, but Wade-Giles still won't be dead then either.
06:49 jaldhar joined #perl6
06:53 * JimmyZ uses pinyin :)
06:56 ascrazy joined #perl6
07:03 * JimmyZ wonders which line is about Cantonese knowledge
07:04 sorear JimmyZ: the generally broken english, and their ip resolved to Shenzhen
07:04 JimmyZ sorear:  hehe
07:04 sorear I thought maybe someone like you would be better equipped to understand them
07:05 JimmyZ sorear: I'm in Shenzhen too
07:06 alc joined #perl6
07:07 * JimmyZ always wrote broken english, which is bad
07:42 ascrazy please, tell me how I can dynamically define method, for example in constructor
07:43 ascrazy nom: class X { has Str $.m is rw; submethod BUILD(Str :$.m){ has &.test = (method (){ $.m }).assuming(self) }}; X.new(:m<zxc>).test.()
07:43 p6eval nom 4130f6:  ( no output )
07:43 ascrazy nom: class X { has Str $.m is rw; submethod BUILD(Str :$.m){ has &.test = (method (){ $.m }).assuming(self) }}; X.new(:m<zxc>).test.().say
07:43 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«zxc␤»
07:46 ascrazy but i want also dynamically determine the name of the method
07:47 ascrazy and it would be fine if it were a method, not an attribute-subroutine
07:47 JimmyZ ascrazy: X.^add_method('name', method) or X.HOW.add_method('name', method);
07:53 ascrazy great, thanks
07:53 tarch joined #perl6
07:56 ascrazy JimmyZ: maybe there a some documentation about it? I have not found anything on http://perlcabal.org/syn/
08:00 JimmyZ ascrazy: https://github.com/rakudo/raku​do/blob/nom/docs/metamodel.pod or https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/​blob/nom/docs/metaobject-api.pod and https://github.com/rakudo/rakud​o/tree/nom/src/Perl6/Metamodel
08:01 ascrazy JimmyZ: thanks
08:07 sorear for a while you could use ::() in roles, but that's no longer done
08:08 moritz remember to call X.^compose after you're done adding methods
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08:51 sorear I tried removing the DFA cache, and apparently it *does* make a difference; CORE from 60s to 72s
08:51 xinming joined #perl6
08:54 moritz and what about memory usage?
08:56 sorear according to the memory profiler, the DFA cache is *tiny8
08:56 moritz ok
08:57 moritz so are the parse trees what takes up all the space during parsing?
08:57 sorear No, that's still the NFA cache.
09:05 moritz compare http://robohash.org/Perl%205 http://robohash.org/Perl%206 and http://robohash.org/Python
09:05 moritz I like how Python has a silly hat :-)
09:05 moritz (robohash generates roboter images based on a hash over a text)
09:14 moritz phenny: tell jnthn in the match-refactor branch, code such as 'abc'.split(/b/) dies with This type cannot unbox to a native integer in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4488. The code that dies is nqp::unbox_i(nqp::istype($n, Int) ?? $n !! $n.Int); and debugging output shows that $n is an Int. Any idea how to debug that?
09:14 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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09:36 * moritz feels bad for starting several branches, getting stuck and then needing to bother jnthn++ to get unstuck :/
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09:38 bacek ~~
09:38 bacek seen jnthn
09:38 aloha jnthn was last seen in #perl6 5 hours 16 mins ago joining the channel.
09:39 bacek phenny, tell jnthn what is the point of /bs branch? Why don't use ImageIO(Freeze|Thaw) PMCs from Parrot?
09:39 phenny bacek: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
09:41 arnsholt IIRC bs is short for bounded serialisation, and aims to do some kind of limited serialisation
09:41 moritz bacek: does ImageIO(Freeze|Thaw) support recursive-but-limited (de)serialization?
09:41 arnsholt So that you don't always freeze your whole object graph
09:41 bacek moritz, can you explain your question?
09:42 moritz bacek: well, we need to serialize objects and type objects
09:42 moritz bacek: which have dependencies on the whole meta object system
09:42 bacek moritz, it all depends how object itself want to serialize. VTABLEs thaw/freeze
09:42 moritz bacek: so all of that needs to be serialized recursively, but for example not the parse tree of the current program
09:43 bacek moritz, it's possible. ImageIO is just orchestrate calls to VTABLE_freeze/thaw
09:43 bacek moritz, every PMC decide by itself which part requires serialization (and how)
09:44 bacek and you'll have really good opportunity to store it in PBC
09:45 bacek Anyway, my point is - we did invent this wheel already. Let's make it more circular instead of inventing new one.
09:47 dakkar joined #perl6
09:47 moritz afaict we had several discussion about this on parrotsketch and parrot-dev, and found that parrot's solution wasn't sufficient
09:47 moritz so jnthn++ decided to prototype it outside, so that we know what we need from parrot
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09:55 bacek there is one small problem...
09:56 bacek Parrot is some kind of "understaffed" and it's very likely that we'll not have enough people to bring this prototype into Parrot.
09:57 moritz well, rakudo has the same kind of problem
09:57 moritz it's also understaffed, and if the most efficient approach is to not mess with parrot, that's what we do
09:58 daxim joined #perl6
09:59 bacek moritz, don't "mess with it". Just change it to shape required.
09:59 moritz well, that's not always easy
09:59 moritz http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/p​arrot-dev/2011-January/005410.html has some notes
10:06 bacek moritz, yes. 1) We did improve GC. Notably. And I'm looking into rewriting GC once again.
10:07 bacek 2) We have some profiling tools. Still LTA.
10:08 moritz bacek: I specifically meant the serialization notes in there
10:08 bacek 3) Just build nqp/bs branch as Parrot's freeze/thaw improvements/replacement. We can discuss which parts are useful, which are useless and which are stupid. But overall serialization is in much better shape now
10:09 moritz bacek: I know about profiling and GC. Much more awesome than 2 years ago
10:09 jnthn morning, #perl6
10:09 phenny jnthn: 09:14Z <moritz> tell jnthn in the match-refactor branch, code such as 'abc'.split(/b/) dies with This type cannot unbox to a native integer in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4488. The code that dies is nqp::unbox_i(nqp::istype($n, Int) ?? $n !! $n.Int); and debugging output shows that $n is an Int. Any idea how to debug that?
10:09 phenny jnthn: 09:39Z <bacek> tell jnthn what is the point of /bs branch? Why don't use ImageIO(Freeze|Thaw) PMCs from Parrot?
10:09 bacek 4) It's stalled. Our PBCs are way too fragile and highly coupled with IMCC :(
10:09 bacek jnthn, aloha
10:10 jnthn hi, bacek
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10:32 jnthn bacek: There were many reasons - amongst them: it was just easier to build what I wanted the end result to look like, that NQP is bootstrapped and Freeze/Thaw is, iirc, tied to PBC version, that I don't know how I'd have handled the stub code object stuff, the bounded notion of it that moritz already mentioned...
10:34 jnthn ...plus wanting it to fit in neatly with 6model and the HLL::World model, and wanting an object serialization approach that would work out relatively fine when I wish to get NQP bootstrapped on additional backends.
10:36 jnthn bacek: My *expectation* at one point was that m0 would come along, we'd build 6model et al on top of that base, build things to replace the existing interesting PMCs using that, write a new PAST::Compiler to target whatever m0 wanted us to target and so forth.
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10:37 jnthn bacek: In that approach, less coupling to existing stuff that I doubt would survive the m0 transition (like, PMCs being more primitive than some low-level objecty thing like 6model) would seem helpful.
10:39 jnthn bacek: Every time I do something that makes the "6model on top of PMCs" model more deeply entrenched, the harder I see turning that arrow in the other direction.
10:39 masak good antenoon, #perl6
10:39 phenny masak: 02:29Z <[Coke]> ask masak to fix skip("reason", $count) in pugs.
10:40 masak later :)
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10:52 masak "Guandongese". cute. and obvious in retrospect.
10:54 masak hehe. http://robohash.org/Ruby
10:54 masak http://robohash.org/PHP
10:56 masak all of them feel "right" in some weird unspecifiable sense. http://robohash.org/Scala http://robohash.org/Java http://robohash.org/Clojure http://robohash.org/Google%20Go
10:57 moritz :-)
11:02 masak of course, it's already 廣州話 to the Chinese, so it won't make a difference to them what the 西人 call it.
11:04 * JimmyZ can't understand Cantonese
11:05 Teratogen good morning
11:05 masak Teratogen! \o/
11:05 Teratogen hi masak
11:06 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: a495442 | moritz++ | src/core/Str.pm:
11:06 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: slightly rework Str.split to avoid passing 1..* ranges around internally
11:06 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a4954423f6
11:06 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: 919603a | moritz++ | src/core/Str.pm:
11:06 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: re-instate workarounds for the zero-width-regex-matches-after-end-of-string bug
11:06 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/919603a310
11:09 jnthn moritz: That nqp::unbox_i failing sounds REALLY weird.
11:09 moritz jnthn: aye
11:09 jnthn moritz: Have you managed to golf it to anything?
11:09 moritz jnthn: I've reduced the number of occurences with a495442, but it still crops up in seemingly unrelated ways
11:10 dalek nqp/bs: de17776 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
11:10 dalek nqp/bs: Move setting of op libs and hll into World.
11:10 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/de17776478
11:10 moritz jnthn: not yet
11:10 moritz now that tests have stopped hanging, I'm doing a full spectest and see in which contexts it pops up
11:13 moritz nom: say <a b c>.list.gimme(Inf)
11:14 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4435␤  in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.setting:4812␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/GRES6pfmrL:1␤␤»
11:14 moritz jnthn: there you go
11:14 moritz now that I know what the problem is, it's easy to avoid
11:17 jnthn nom: say Inf.WHAT
11:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
11:17 jnthn nom: say ?nqp::istype(Inf, Int)
11:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«False␤»
11:17 jnthn nom: say ?nqp::istype(Inf.Int, Int)
11:17 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«False␤»
11:17 moritz I added a pir::say(pir::typeof__SP($n)), and it did say Int, I think
11:18 jnthn nom: say Inf.Int.WHAT
11:18 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
11:18 moritz nom: say Inf.Int.WHAT
11:18 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
11:18 jnthn Ah, there we go
11:18 jnthn It's relying on what comes back from .Int to always be an Int.
11:18 moritz we should *really* make .Type either return that type or error out
11:18 jnthn yeah
11:19 jnthn Because it's not a particularly unreasonable expectation :)
11:20 jnthn my $eager = nqp::p6bool(nqp::istype($n, Whatever));
11:20 jnthn That line in List.gimme should be updated to check for Inf.
11:20 moritz and can we make $eager an int?
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11:21 jnthn Why?
11:21 jnthn Bool::True and Bool::False don't require any allocation
11:21 moritz oh right
11:21 moritz then it's fine, I think
11:21 jnthn It'd save a container allocation I guess
11:21 jnthn But only if the compiler is smart enough to know not to box on the LHS of ??
11:22 jnthn Which I suspect it currently ain't.
11:24 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: 5b44683 | moritz++ | src/core/Str.pm:
11:24 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: avoid passing Inf to List.gimme()
11:24 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5b4468309e
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12:24 dalek nqp/bs: faad21e | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: Set up .hll and op libs when doing dynamic compilation.
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/faad21e53f
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: cd2d658 | jnthn++ | src/core/NQPRoutine.pm:
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: Correct is_dispatcher; simply add_dispatchee.
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cd2d65837e
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: a4b32bb | jnthn++ | src/how/NQPClassHOW.pm:
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: Correct dispatcher test in multi incorporation.
12:24 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a4b32bb8b5
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: 1c44619 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: Make stringification of NQPRoutine work.
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1c44619392
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: bf58d7d | jnthn++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: Harden dispatcher check to avoid false positives.
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bf58d7d7a8
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: 65d8cac | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: Always make code objects for methods - it will make dynamic compilation and thus role handling FAR saner. This required some twiddles to multi-method handling also. Will come back and unify multi-subs with this approach later also.
12:25 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/65d8cacd3a
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12:48 dalek roast: 7fa2c2d | moritz++ | S05-modifier/exhaustive.t:
12:48 dalek roast: clean up and fudge exhaustive.t a little
12:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7fa2c2d982
12:48 dalek roast: b07cd56 | moritz++ | S05-modifier/counted-match.t:
12:48 dalek roast: s/todo/skip/ a test for a NYI feature
12:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b07cd56a41
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12:54 dalek nqp/bs: 8bf542e | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
12:54 dalek nqp/bs: Update clone handling in parametric roles.
12:54 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8bf542e5fb
12:54 dalek nqp/bs: b9e1d10 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
12:54 dalek nqp/bs: Start building fixup list for dynamic compilation. Also some general tidying of create_code.
12:54 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b9e1d10004
12:54 jnthn Hunger strikes...lunch. bbs
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13:11 * masak .oO( how can you lunch during the hunger strikes? )
13:12 arnsholt masak: In re pirc and so on, when I think about it, Perl 6 can easily dispatch to not only pimc (via hypers) but also pifl via precircumfix<[ ]>, just as soon as we get a computer that supports the necessary operations =D
13:15 masak I just think of those as 'hyper map' and 'hyper grep', respectively.
13:15 arnsholt Indeed
13:15 masak pire, if it weren't two degrees impossible, would be 'hyper reduce'.
13:15 arnsholt Yeah, that's the one [+] does of course, not pifl
13:15 arnsholt Brainfart
13:16 masak I guess if the operation being reduced on follows the associative law, you can get the running time down from Inf to log(Inf) *grin*
13:18 moritz and log(Inf) is in the order of 5, as one of our professors used to say :-)
13:18 arnsholt I'm gonna have to try and remember that quote
13:19 arnsholt I gave my students the "Any problem in CS can be solved with an additional layer of indirection" quote yesterday
13:19 arnsholt But log(Inf) is on the order of 5 might be possible to wriggle in at some point
13:20 masak arnsholt: you teach? nice!
13:20 masak I find the "additional layer of indirection" quote to be very true nowadays.
13:21 masak I wonder if I couldn't give a talk just about that.
13:21 arnsholt Yeah, it's pretty cool. Mostly I help students during lab sessions, but I'm giving about a third of the lectures in the course as well
13:21 moritz ... especially if you add "... except for the problem of having too many layers of indirection"
13:22 arnsholt Giving a two hour lecture is also one of the mentally exhausting things (if not the most) I've ever done, incidentally
13:22 arnsholt moritz: Yeah, I mentioned that as an aside, but the first part was even on the slide =)
13:22 moritz agreed. I've given a few 2-hour tutorials (partially in lecture style). And once I've given two such things in a row.
13:23 arnsholt Ow. That sounds extra exhausting
13:23 arnsholt But OTOH, it's a very good experience. I usually end up feeling like I've learnt something
13:23 moritz masak: it's just a different view on the ladder of abstraction thing you've blogged about (variables/loops/routines/macros, dunno which steps I've forgotten)
13:25 jnthn .oO( Every problem can be solved by either adding or removing a level of indirection. Now you just gotta figure out which of the two you need this time... )
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13:28 moritz woah, it seems I've broken something multi-dispatchy on the match-refactor branch :/
13:29 Teratogen is Perl 6 thread safe?
13:29 moritz Teratogen: is English thread safe?
13:29 Teratogen baw
13:29 moritz the question doesn't make much sense for a language
13:30 Teratogen ok
13:30 Teratogen Does Perl 6 have threads?
13:30 Teratogen wait
13:30 Teratogen Does English have threads?
13:31 flussence ()
13:32 moritz Teratogen: Perl 6 threads aren't specced in much detail yet (nor any other concurrency stuff), but there will be threads
13:32 Teratogen cool
13:32 moritz and then, some features and libraries will be thread safe, and others might not be.
13:33 masak moritz: I don't think I ever wrote that blog post ;)
13:34 masak oh! maybe as an advent post!
13:34 masak ah, right. http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2011/12​/19/day-19-abstraction-and-why-its-good/
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13:46 fsergot o/ :)
13:54 rsimoes joined #perl6
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13:55 masak fsergot! \o/
13:57 GlitchMr joined #perl6
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14:08 masak Trashlord's quit message is allegedly a Cree "prophesy". but I can find no reliable source for it on the interwebs.
14:10 huf also it's wrong. when the premises come true, you can still eat other people for a while
14:11 flussence .oO( money can't be eaten, but it can buy you some zombie repellant )
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: 560633d | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: handle List.gimme(Inf) and fix two two off-by-one errors
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor:
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: This brings the branch on par with nom wrt passing tests, except
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: two odd failures in S06-operator-overloading/sub.t and
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: integration/advent2009-day22.t
14:12 dalek rakudo/match-refactor: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/560633d964
14:12 masak the quote says nothing about eating people.
14:13 flussence ...what if the money was made out of rice paper?
14:14 masak that's the best response to that quote I've ever heard.
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14:32 moritz are some of you also getting "mail delivery failed" emails that quote very old mails to perl6-* lists?
14:32 tadzik nope
14:33 masak нет
14:33 moritz I think [Coke] mentioned something similar
14:36 masak some people in here might appreciate http://herbsutter.com/welcome-to-the-jungle/ -- it's about the future of computing hardware.
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14:39 PerlJam masak: Haven't you mentioned that before?
14:40 PerlJam I know I showed it to my coworkers recently and I could have sworn I got the URL from here.
14:40 * moritz thinks he's also seen it before
14:41 masak I might've. yeah, it was probably me.
14:42 masak it's been sitting in my tab queue for a while, and I just started reading it.
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15:01 * tadzik is still waiting for some psychological analysis which will tell him, why some people tend to have few dozens of tabs opened all the time, and some like to close them
15:01 moritz tadzik: no need for psychology. I have good techincal reasons (memory hungry browser, not too much RAM) for closing them
15:02 cognominal tabs, the new bookmarking system...
15:05 tadzik moritz: well, I have none of those problems and I still keep tabs closed
15:05 moritz tadzik: you might have that problem if you kept 200+ tabs open :-)
15:05 tadzik true :)
15:06 tadzik oh, oh, idea for Perl6::Critic
15:06 masak I have 32 tabs open. that's on the high side for me nowadays.
15:06 tadzik warn if I declare class A is B, when B is a role. I probably do not want
15:09 * moritz uses that feature in the exceptions stuff
15:09 moritz everything that does X::Comp also needs to inherit from Exception, so role X::Comp is Exception { }
15:10 * jnthn back
15:10 jnthn (no, all that time wasn't *just* spent on lunch)
15:11 tadzik that's not what I mean, I think
15:11 frettled I hope you had sufficient noms.
15:11 jnthn frettled: Yes. :)
15:12 tadzik I stumbled upon this when porting Panda to nom; B was a role with some stub (!!!) methods, , class A was implementing them, but upon class A is B an error occured, "methods NYI in B"
15:12 jnthn Yeah, that will happen.
15:13 tadzik that did happen, and did give me some headscratching ;)
15:13 jnthn It's almost certainly correct. We can't turn a role into a class if it has missing bits. :)
15:13 flussence shouldn't those be "..." instead?
15:13 jnthn But I can see how it would make you think "hmm wtf" too :)
15:13 moritz flussence: ... and !!! are both allowed as stubs
15:13 tadzik somehow, it came to my memory while I was thinking about interfaces in Go
15:13 flussence oh, ok
15:13 moritz and !!! is like &die, and ... is &fail
15:14 jnthn Don't forget ???
15:14 jnthn :)
15:14 moritz tadzik: oh, I misunderstood you. Yes, 'class A is SomeRole' is likely and error, whereas 'role A is SomeClass' is much more likely to be legit
15:14 tadzik I'm looking forward to a module which will name them  "fyi", "wtf" and "omg"
15:15 tadzik moritz: right
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15:23 jnthn Well, "class A is SomeRole { }" means "pun the role then inherit from the pun"
15:27 moritz right
15:30 jnthn I think we shouldn't stigmatise it as it's a mechanism that eases class => role refactoring.
15:34 moritz well
15:35 moritz maybe we really want a way to mark a class as not having any stubbed methods left
15:35 moritz so that we can complain at compile time if that assumption is violated
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15:38 jnthn nom: role R { method m() { ... } }; class C does R { }
15:38 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'm' must be implemented by C because it is required by a role␤»
15:38 jnthn moritz: ^^ already is compile time.
15:39 moritz nom: role R { method m() { ... } }; class C is R { }
15:39 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'm' must be implemented by R because it is required by a role␤»
15:39 moritz oh, that case is covered too? great
15:39 jnthn That is just a tad confusing.
15:39 jnthn But...not sure how easily we can fix that.
15:39 jnthn I mean, it'd be nice if it told you it was due to punning
15:40 moritz yes, if it said "Error while promoting role R to a class: Method 'm'..."
15:40 moritz that would be more awesome
15:41 dalek niecza: c03a4da | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
15:41 dalek niecza: Add Range.pick and Range.roll based on the Rakudo versions.
15:41 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c03a4dabca
15:41 dalek niecza: ea24f5c | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
15:41 dalek niecza: Fix copy-n-pasto.
15:41 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/ea24f5c234
15:41 benabik nom: role R { method m() { ... } }; class C is R { method m() { } }
15:41 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'm' must be implemented by R because it is required by a role␤»
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15:41 dalek roast: 92c0f96 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S32-list/ (2 files):
15:41 dalek roast: Add more sanity tests for Range.pick and Range.roll.  Unfudge tests which are now quick in niecza.
15:41 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/92c0f96137
15:41 dalek roast: a95178f | (Solomon Foster)++ | S0 (10 files):
15:41 dalek roast: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/roast
15:41 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a95178f510
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15:45 dalek nqp/bs: 92b0fbc | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
15:45 dalek nqp/bs: Bring the code object fixup mechanism in line with the one in Rakudo (essentially, it fixes up by setting the $!do rather than mucking round with assign vtable).
15:45 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/92b0fbc812
15:45 dalek nqp/bs: 0f9b81e | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
15:45 dalek nqp/bs: Implement fixing stuff up in dynamic compilation. Gets the role tests passing again in the run-immediately case; serialization not quite there yet, though.
15:45 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0f9b81ec6e
15:52 masak do people in here self-identify as "hackers"?
15:53 flussence sometimes
15:53 masak I mean, can the word still mean "programmer", or has it been claimed for "computer crimial"?
15:55 cognominal Perl is about lazyness. What about slhackers?
15:56 jnthn masak: I accept (though resent) that in many circles it's been claimed as the latter. I'd self-identify as that quite comfortably hear, but would likely not in any situations where it was likely to be misinterpreted.
15:56 jnthn s/hear/here/
15:58 geekosaur most programmer-oriented communities still use hacker in something close to the original sense (and MIT still uses it in the sense in which it was coined, naturally, with some splashover to similar institutions)
15:58 masak I find I say "to hack on" in its various forms more often than I say "hacker" nwoadays.
15:59 moritz masak: I identify myself as a "hacker" when I manage to come up with a clever hack (like the "prototype stuff in SAFE.setting to get shorter compilation times" thing yesterday), but mostly I don't think I deserve that title, because I don't do clever hacks often enough
16:00 moritz and I do use "hacker" as meaning "computer criminal" when talking with non-tech people, simply because then they know what I'm talking about
16:00 moritz but internally, "hacker" is positively and non-criminally connotated for me
16:01 benabik Hacker is becoming less associated with criminals, I think.  Hackerspaces are starting to flourish and more and more people know it doesn't mean a den of criminals.
16:02 moritz jnthn: do you have any idea why 5b4468309e03b0d6ff3f01070997b6ebb9687103 (in match-refactor) breaks adding lexical multis to operators?
16:04 jnthn o.O
16:04 jnthn No.
16:05 moritz in that branch, S06-operator-overloading/sub.t fails
16:05 arnsholt I do much the same as masak, I think
16:05 moritz and one of the integration tests
16:05 moritz and I have not a single idea of what that could be
16:05 moritz and git bisect identified that as the offending commit
16:05 arnsholt I use the verb to hack reasonably frequently (which results in some confusion with others, TBH), but don't really label myself as hacker with any frequency
16:12 masak I seldom use "hacker" as meaning "computer criminal", because I secretly deplore this more mainstream sense of the word.
16:14 colomon +1
16:15 PerlJam masak: why secretly? :)
16:17 masak because in a conversation when someone uses "hacker" in the "criminal" sense, I don't go all rms on them an put them right.
16:17 flussence masak++
16:18 flussence I'm often tempted to myself :)
16:19 masak in the pendulum swing between valuing correctness and valuing communication, I'm currently in a "valuing communication" phase, and have been for some years :)
16:20 au maska++ #communic
16:20 au masak++, even.
16:20 PerlJam masak: yet you silently accept their mis-use of the word "hacker" rather than communicate to them the proper perspective   :)
16:20 * au thinks the 13th-century "one who cuts wood, builds stuff with wood, and builds one's own wood-cutting tools" sense is quite communicable, too
16:20 masak PerlJam: yes.
16:21 masak that's the backside of the "value communication" coin :)
16:21 masak maybe I'll reach some kind of synthesis between the two one day...
16:22 PerlJam au: I'd never really considered that definition before, but it's interesting for me to find out that I was a hacker long before I was a hacker  :)
16:22 au :D
16:23 masak the 13th-century sense has some pretty symmetries with the 20th-century programmer one. :)
16:23 PerlJam masak: you can always tactfully educate people without being RMS-like :)
16:24 au oh yes, you can s/wood/code/ and it'd still work :)
16:24 au or even s/wood/slack/...
16:24 benabik Lots of people seem to turn wood into slack...
16:24 * benabik has heard rumors people do useful things with power tools, but has yet to see it.  ;-)
16:25 masak a language hacker does s/wood/meaning/ :)
16:25 au mmm meaning-cutting tools
16:25 * masak admires the strange loop
16:26 cognominal "going rms on people". Nice neologism.
16:26 benabik "Meaning-cutting"?  People do speak of a well honed argument...
16:27 masak cognominal: it's "going GNU/rms on people" to you, mister.
16:27 PerlJam #perl6 is adept at cutting meaning from words and other raw materials
16:27 PerlJam masak++
16:27 masak that's why we like to bikeshed, I guess.
16:27 masak most bikesheds are on choice of words.
16:29 arnsholt Good point. I guess that's the danger of including too many linguists (or close enough approximations thereof) ^_^
16:29 cognominal masak++
16:30 masak I can't just riff on rms like that without saying that I also respect the man, and the way he holds on to principles.
16:31 masak in a world where people willingly give away their privacy on Facebook, people like rms are sorely needed.
16:31 PerlJam masak: yep
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16:37 cognominal somehow rms is often counterproductive. I have seen him aggressive against a mayor of a Paris arrondissement because he was confusing Open source and free software. Agression against a well-meaning outsider who does not know minute catechism points but is ready to propagage the faith is stupid.
16:39 daxim the mayor clearly had it coming
16:40 * masak .oO( he was in for some mayor rms aggression )
16:40 mucker joined #perl6
16:40 daxim two crowns for the pun box!
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17:15 dalek nqp/bs: 043c6a3 | jnthn++ | src/6model/serialization_context.c:
17:15 dalek nqp/bs: Make an error more useful for debugging.
17:15 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/043c6a3215
17:15 dalek nqp/bs: 09f9aea | jnthn++ | src/6model/serialization.c:
17:15 dalek nqp/bs: For closures, if they have a high level code object attach, serialize that attachment and put it back when deserializing. This means that the multi-method tests now all pass after serialization/deserialization.
17:15 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/09f9aea220
17:16 moritz \o/
17:16 TimToady "Error while promoting role R to a class"  Odd, I think of it as demoting :)
17:16 jnthn ;)
17:17 jnthn moritz: I've still gotta figure out why roles don't survive the serialization now, though...
17:17 TimToady I think of abstractions as higher than concretions, generally
17:17 jnthn oh...partly 'cus I've done something really dumb...
17:22 jnthn omgz, I think it just worked...
17:26 * masak decommutes
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17:38 dalek nqp/bs: 9300396 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/World.pm:
17:38 dalek nqp/bs: Add a way to update a code ref in an SC (for example, if dynamic compilation comes along and actually compiles the real thing).
17:38 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/93003967c7
17:38 dalek nqp/bs: abd4d49 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
17:38 dalek nqp/bs: Make the fixup logic for dynamic compilation aware of twiddles it needs to make with regard to the SC: marking with STATIC_CODE_REF and updating the SC entry itself. This gets the role test to pass after serialization/deserialization.
17:38 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/abd4d49c1d
17:51 dalek nqp/bs: 36cf9ca | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
17:51 dalek nqp/bs: Use normal compilation chain when doing dynamic compilation, which means we don't miss adding various directives we need to get .const thingies. Fixes serialization of QRegex, though all the tests fail.
17:51 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/36cf9cac8c
17:51 dalek nqp/bs: c35d3cd | jnthn++ | src/core/NQPRoutine.pm:
17:51 dalek nqp/bs: Fix boolification of NQPRoutine; now all QRegex tests pass with serialized QRegex executable.
17:51 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c35d3cdbb8
17:52 dalek nqp/bs: e694ab9 | jnthn++ | / (4 files):
17:52 dalek nqp/bs: Merge branch 'master' into bs
17:52 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e694ab9e33
17:55 sorear good * #perl6
17:56 colomon \o
17:56 jnthn hi, sorear
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18:01 pmurias sorear: hi
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18:19 pmurias sorear: when should i commit code for the use Foo:from<perl5>, once it starting to work (now) and clean it up in subsequent commits or when it's reasonably polished?
18:25 PerlJam pmurias: release early, release often  :-)
18:26 sorear If nothing else, at least commit it to a branch.
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18:42 * [Coke] yawns
18:45 sorear heya [Coke]
18:47 pmurias sorear: t/run_spectests is supposed to be all passes?
18:50 sorear ideally
18:52 [Coke] there are failures, though.
18:55 [Coke] niecza has been consistently failing 8 tests for some time now.
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18:57 dalek nqp/bs: d17d795 | jnthn++ | src/ModuleLoader.pm:
18:57 dalek nqp/bs: Slightly cheaty fix to global merging (mostly messy due to PAST not being done with 6model and NQP not really having a distinct package-only meta-object). With this, the Rakudo build atop of nqp/bs actaully produces a perl6.exe, though things blow up in the Metamodel compilation (which was expected at this point).
18:57 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d17d79593a
18:59 dalek rakudo/bs: e78ab30 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/C3MRO.pm:
18:59 dalek rakudo/bs: Make c3merge a method to avoid an issue with subs in roles; amazingly, this is enough to make Perl6::Metamodel build (though it needs various changes yet).
18:59 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e78ab300da
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19:05 roland333 good afternoon everybody.
19:07 roland333 sorear, you busy?
19:07 sorear o/ roland333
19:07 roland333 \o
19:07 roland333 high five bro
19:07 sorear I was wondering when you'd be back. :)
19:07 roland333 You're going to be disappointed in me=) I decided to focus my efforts on python at first.
19:08 roland333 But still hang out in this channel
19:08 roland333 I'm scared of python people.
19:08 sorear *shrug*
19:08 sorear that's fine with me.
19:09 sorear a lot of other people will insult you in an attempt to prove their manliness.
19:09 roland333 Yeah, you guys were so cool sunday I'm hooked on this channel.
19:09 roland333 im scared more than they'll have me put in commands that will damage my machine actually.
19:10 roland333 I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy. so that wouldn't dissuade me.
19:11 roland333 Yesterday I made it my mission to get linux running on my mac.  Took all day and it was a huge pita, but I finally gave up trying to set up a dual boot and tried to set up a VM and it worked smoothly.
19:11 roland333 Feels good.
19:12 sorear Why bother?
19:12 sorear If your mac was made this century, it already has FreeBSD on it
19:13 pmurias sorear: t/run_spectests is supposed to be all passes?
19:13 sorear 10:50 < sorear> ideally
19:13 sorear 10:52 < [Coke]> there are failures, though.
19:13 sorear 10:55 < [Coke]> niecza has been consistently failing 8 tests for some time now.
19:13 dalek rakudo/bs: a4be325 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
19:13 dalek rakudo/bs: Rip out much of the deserialization code generation that can be got rid of just by removing it, and that doesn't need more careful consideration.
19:13 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a4be325e0d
19:14 roland333 sorear, i found the freebsd dir in spotlight, how do I get it running?
19:15 roland333 I only see 3 files and none of them are familiar types.
19:15 pmurias sorear: lots of tests pass, commiting, will fix the failures once they finish ;)
19:15 sorear roland333: os x is a graphical environment built on top of freebsd
19:16 benabik (FreeBSD's userspace on top of Mach.  OS X is a many layered thing.  </pendantic>)
19:16 roland333 I knew it had a unix/linux type engine, but i really want to work in an authentic environment.
19:16 roland333 benabik, I enjoy pendantry, so thanks=)
19:16 pmurias ahh merge conflicts
19:16 flussence OS X is a certified Unix®
19:17 benabik There is nothing missing in OS X as a real Unix environment.  X11, gcc, bash, perl, the whole lot is there.  (Although you do have to download Xcode for the dev tools, but it's free)
19:17 sorear OS X probably has more of the original AT&T code than Linux does
19:18 roland333 so can I customize the appearance, modules, etc etc like I could in ubuntu?
19:18 sorear (where by Linux I actually mean common Linux-based operating systems)
19:18 roland333 I have almost no idea what i'm talking about so be gentle.
19:19 roland333 I guess what I mean, can I customize my graphical environment?
19:19 roland333 Its shallow, but hey, i'm a shallow guy.
19:19 sorear sure OSX has customization options.
19:20 sorear the graphical environment used by OSX is not the same as the graphical environment used in Ubuntu
19:20 sorear as always there are layers
19:20 sorear the core graphics system that Ubuntu uses is called "X11", and I beleive an OSX version of that is available from Apple
19:20 mj41 joined #perl6
19:21 roland333 cool thanks.
19:21 roland333 gonna mess with that and see if i can figure it out on my own.
19:21 benabik It comes installed on 10.5(?)-10.7.  It was downloadable for earlier version.
19:21 sorear core X11, however, just gives you a black screen and the ability to open windows
19:21 roland333 before i go, any pitfalls I should be wary of?
19:21 roland333 Can I build my own custom graphical environment on top of core x11 though?
19:22 benabik (And will be downloadable again for 10.8+, since Xquartz updates much faster than the OS does.)
19:22 sorear so Ubuntu also provides add-on modules - a desktop (displays icons on the screen), a panel (displays the top bar), and a window manager (displays title bars on windows)
19:22 roland333 I want to do it from the ground up.
19:24 benabik First you have make a cross-compiler environment to build the kernel with...  <.<  >.>
19:24 sorear I'm personally running panel-less, desktop-less, and with a window manager that I partially wrote myself.  But I don't generally recommend this.
19:24 benabik That may be starting from underground...
19:25 benabik sorear: Custom WM in OS X?
19:25 sorear benabik: Linux
19:25 benabik sorear: Ah.  Yes.  That's far less confusing.  Sounds fun.  :-D
19:25 roland333 haha
19:25 roland333 it does.
19:25 sorear I don't think it's even possible to replace the system WM/panel/desktop in OSX
19:26 roland333 I helped my buddy with a pc get ubuntu running on his machine and now he's doing all kinds of cool customization and i'm jealous.
19:26 roland333 sorear, thats why i want to get linux on my machine.
19:26 sorear OSX is designed to make it hard for you to shoot yourself in the foot
19:26 benabik It's possible to kill Finder...  The Dock has a tendency to do more than you might expect though.
19:26 sorear it's very, very easy to break a linux system
19:27 roland333 I spent all goddamn day trying to set up a dual boot and had to give up and set up a vm.
19:27 benabik Some Linux systems come pre-broken...  Although I may just be a little bitter about multi lib / aptitude problems in Ubuntu 10.10
19:28 roland333 ha
19:28 tadzik jnthn: I get lots of WARNING: STable deserialization not yet fully implemented on nqp/bs, is that expected?
19:28 doy ubuntu doesn't come pre-broken, it's just that anything you try to do to it breaks it
19:29 roland333 sorear, i'm willing to put in the work to get it running, i really want a dual boot.  I have blank dvds, a 16 gb flashdrive but I just couldnt get it working.
19:29 roland333 What flavor do you guys recommend for a beginner?
19:30 jnthn tadzik: Yes.
19:30 jnthn tadzik: Did it otherwise build OK?
19:30 benabik doy: Install 10.10 on x86_64, run aptitude, and then tell me it's not broken.  Double packages everywhere and forgetting new packages doesn't work.
19:30 tadzik jnthn: yes, and tests PASS
19:30 doy linux on apple hardware can be more of a challenge, because apple makes so much of their own hardware that some things may not be as well supported
19:30 tadzik jnthn++
19:30 sahadev joined #perl6
19:30 jnthn tadzik: Thanks, good to hear it works on at least one other platform :)
19:30 * jnthn noms some dinner
19:30 doy benabik: well, i haven't tried it in a while, it may have gotten worse
19:30 doy (:
19:31 benabik doy: I imagine it's a temporary thing, but it frustrated me to no end trying out Ubuntu Server.
19:31 roland333 sorear, what kind of machine are you on?
19:32 sorear an unmarked white box of unknown origin that's half as old as I am
19:32 sorear +at least
19:32 roland333 so a pc?
19:32 sorear yes, pc compatible
19:33 roland333 shitty.  How familiar are you with macs?
19:33 sorear dubious
19:33 sorear I'm more familiar with the older systems
19:34 sorear I've read _Inside Macintosh_
19:34 benabik I duel-boot OS X / Win7 on my MacBook.  Never tried adding Linux to it, I just add what I need to OS X.
19:35 sorear I've used OSX a few times... I know how to open a terminal, and I have "fond" memories of one time when I needed to edit a file and the only thing I could get to work was ed(1)
19:36 huf hehe
19:36 roland333 =0
19:36 roland333 is timtoady actually timtoady or is that a tribute nickname?
19:36 moritz TimToady is as TimToady as TimToady can be.
19:36 huf he's the real thing, or a facsimile so good
19:36 huf that we dont need the real one
19:38 roland333 haha, thats amazing.
19:39 roland333 i just read his essay from '98 on how perl is the first postmodern programming language.
19:39 roland333 Completely blown away.
19:43 dalek rakudo/cont_reuse: 7cb1087 | moritz++ | src/binder/multidispatch.c:
19:43 dalek rakudo/cont_reuse: fix rakudo for parrot's take_recont branch
19:43 dalek rakudo/cont_reuse: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7cb1087062
19:43 masak roland333: Perl 6 is the first post-postmodern language.
19:43 moritz oops, forgot to credit bacek++ for that patch
19:44 roland333 Thats fitting, considering its not done masak.
19:44 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
19:45 masak roland333: nice to have you back, by the way.
19:45 roland333 IF you couldn't tell, i despise that term, post-postmodern.
19:45 roland333 Man, this is the best channel i've been in since my days of Ultima Online.
19:45 masak oh! then Perl 6 is just pre-post-postmodern.
19:45 roland333 hha
19:45 moritz well, you can shorten that to post^2-modern
19:45 moritz you're totally right about DRY of course
19:46 roland333 you and sorear especially are a tribute to the perl community.
19:48 masak especially sorear :)
19:48 roland333 haha, i wasn't going to say it:P
19:51 * TimToady hides behind a post-post.
19:52 masak is that something like a combined lamp-post and mailbox?
19:53 * skids pictures a dog wearing a big white chew-cone (forming an O), with the letters SX spraypainted and/or shaved on its side.  Good thing he doesn't have a dog.
19:53 sorear TimToady: hey, roland333 wants to know, are you really TimToady?
19:53 TimToady why do you think I'm hiding?
19:54 sorear roland333: I am flatttered
19:54 roland333 Larry, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your essay on postmodernism and perl.
19:55 TimToady btw, finally "upgraded" to Ubuntu 11.10 on my laptop last night, and survived, mostly...
19:55 roland333 more for the concise and creative explanation of postmodernism than anything else.
19:55 TimToady well, it's only one view of postmodernism
19:55 * masak likes that talk too
19:56 TimToady the deconstructionists didn't like me making puns on that though...
19:56 snearch joined #perl6
19:56 TimToady apparently puns are a sign of the patriarchy, or something...
19:56 moritz nom: class A { }; { multi infix:<==>(A $, A $) { say "A+" }; A.new == A.new; }
19:56 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«A+␤»
19:57 roland333 haha.
19:57 moritz didn'T we have a ticket that some operators can be overloaded in nom, and other can't?
19:57 roland333 Well, i'm starstruck.  My friend Scott is one of your great disciples.
19:57 LoRe TimToady: i've switched to archlinux after I lost a live while upgrading to 11.10...
19:58 sorear you'll get over that.
19:58 TimToady roland333: my condolences
19:58 TimToady LoRe: well, when I upgraded my server to 11.10 it bricked it for a few days...
19:58 TimToady which is why I waited on the laptop
19:59 sorear if you're going to be active in the perl irc community you'll need to learn to cope with occasional visits from TimToady and merlyn and yrlnry
19:59 TimToady now that I'm here, my officemates are hauling me off to lunch... &
19:59 roland333 i'll learn to cope i suppose.
19:59 doy archlinux++
20:00 roland333 who are merlyn and yrlnry?
20:00 sorear Randal L. Schwartz, Mark-Jason Dominus
20:00 sorear respectively
20:00 * au briefly wonders why no-one has picked up the obvious dual nickname "rwlnwr", then fades to sleep &
20:01 moritz nom: class A { }; { multi infix:«<»(A, A) { say "A overloaded" }; A.new < A.new; }
20:01 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Real'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu %_!)␤␤  in method Real at src/gen/CORE.setting:665␤  in sub infix:<<> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2305␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/WHCmyaMoUM:1␤␤»
20:01 moritz nom: class A { }; { multi infix:«+»(A, A) { say "A overloaded" }; A.new + A.new; }
20:01 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«A overloaded␤»
20:01 masak moritz: yes, I think we did. but I can't find it.
20:01 * jnthn recalls that one
20:02 jnthn But I thought it may be a bit of confusion
20:02 sorear I don't get au's joke
20:02 au sorear: both are off-by-one typos of "telnet" on a qwerty keyboard.
20:02 jnthn Along the lines of "the one in the setting re-dispatches and doesn't include my candidates" - which it won't given the way we've implemented it at the moment.
20:02 sorear ah.  my mind jumped to rot13, leyael, Yuval Kogman...
20:03 dalek niecza: 3da37be | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (4 files):
20:03 dalek niecza: Exporting a empty sub using :from<perl5> works.
20:03 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/3da37be4f2
20:03 dalek niecza: d05a5fe | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (4 files):
20:03 dalek niecza: Exporting a single sub works.
20:03 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/d05a5fe597
20:03 moritz so I should re-submit the bug from above, right?
20:04 moritz jnthn: I think that the bug in the match-refactor branch is a manifestation of that very same bug
20:04 moritz and that it simply shifts == from overloadable to not overloadable
20:04 masak sorear: I also didn't get it before the explanation. the only thing I could come up with was "ya rly"
20:06 jnthn moritz: you may if you can't find it
20:12 dalek niecza: be2a9e7 | (Paweł Murias)++ | examples/term-ansicolor.pl:
20:12 dalek niecza: Change Term::ANSIColor example to use :from<perl5>.
20:12 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/be2a9e7ec4
20:17 Trashlord joined #perl6
20:17 colomon does yrlnry actually come here?  I don't recall ever knowing that mjd was in the channel...
20:18 sorear I think he may have dropped by once or twice
20:18 sorear I've definitely seen him in #p5p
20:21 * sorear out
20:23 ascrazy joined #perl6
20:24 dalek nqp/bs: a1d5f90 | jnthn++ | src/6model/serialization.c:
20:24 dalek nqp/bs: Add container spec serialization/deserialization, which completes all we need to do for at least STable serialization.
20:24 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a1d5f90851
20:24 dalek nqp/bs: 0764869 | jnthn++ | src/6model/serialization.c:
20:24 dalek nqp/bs: Seems STables already do get a type cache ID allocated upon deserialization, so remove deserialization warning; nothing known un-done now.
20:24 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/076486970d
20:27 moritz bug submitted as #111264
20:28 moritz colomon: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2005-07-24#i_-551631
20:29 colomon moritz: that was 2005!
20:30 moritz colomon: aye :-)
20:30 moritz colomon: it has a negative ID in the DB, which means that it's imported from before I started logging on my own
20:31 colomon is that the most recent one you could find?
20:31 moritz it's the only one I could find.
20:31 masak that's the only one.
20:32 masak and it's not even a Perl 6 question! :)
20:34 PerlJam mjd is always on #git and occasionally on #p5p and some of the other #perl
20:34 skids https://gist.github.com/1877885   <-- meanderings of a recently-fevered mind.
20:35 localhost joined #perl6
20:36 PerlJam skids: I don't buy your "# time passes" bit.
20:41 benabik Unfortunately, time passes even if you don't pay for it.
20:42 skids well, whether you are looking at it from that perspective, or that the format of the data is simply unknown to the person doing the subscripting (because they are working in a sloppily typed environment), same problem really.
20:42 PerlJam What I'm saying is that, in that situtation, "time passes" is irrelevant (because of lexical proximity) or can't happen that way
20:43 mj41 joined #perl6
20:44 moritz skids: what I'm missing is a rather concrete example use case
20:47 * colomon has a strange urge to play "Pull Out the Knife And Stick it Again" on flute...
21:02 [Coke] # 02/21/2012 - niecza at 100.96%
21:02 [Coke] "niecza",     20283,     8,   751,  1549, 22591, 23461
21:02 [Coke] "rakudo",     20090,    28,   604,  1869, 22591, 23471
21:02 proller_ joined #perl6
21:04 [Coke] "pugs",        3008,     1,  1722,    14,  4745, 23233
21:04 [Coke] b: say 3008/20090
21:04 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«0.149726231956197␤»
21:04 benabik poor pugs
21:05 [Coke] should be able to get it to 25% without actually writing any haskell.
21:06 [Coke] b: say 20090/20283, "\n", 3008/20283
21:06 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«0.990484642311295␤0.148301533303752␤»
21:07 ksi joined #perl6
21:08 fridim_ joined #perl6
21:10 [Coke] updated https://gist.github.com/1476841
21:10 [Coke] # 02/21/2012 - rakudo at 99.04% of niecza, pugs at 14.83%
21:11 masak \o/
21:11 masak [Coke]++
21:12 masak [Coke]: I might get to the skip thing tomorrow.
21:12 [Coke] (now to automate that so pugs is included by default)
21:13 fsergot perl6: say sin(pi / 6);
21:13 p6eval rakudo 4130f6: OUTPUT«0.499999999481858␤»
21:13 p6eval ..pugs b927740, niecza v14-57-gd05a5fe: OUTPUT«0.49999999999999994␤»
21:14 fsergot Isn't just 0.5?
21:14 masak yes.
21:14 masak fsergot: are you familiar with loss of precision when doing some floating-point calculations?
21:14 roland333 Alright  guys, i'm gonna go try and concentrate on learning some commands.
21:14 roland333 Thanks for the help
21:15 masak roland333: thanks for stopping by!
21:15 NamelessTee joined #perl6
21:15 fsergot masak: yes, i'm. :)
21:16 fsergot So, it's clear now. :)
21:16 masak :)
21:16 fsergot I just wanted to know where the problem is.  :)
21:18 moritz In> Sin(Pi / 6)
21:18 moritz Out> 1/2
21:18 moritz that's in yacas
21:18 masak well, there are two sites of possible loss of precision: the division and the sin(). both use Num, that is, floating-point numbers.
21:18 fsergot masak: is there any way to round this result?
21:18 masak fsergot: constant folding :)
21:19 moritz not really
21:19 fsergot The 'round' word is correct in this meaning? :)
21:19 moritz nom: say sin(pi/6).fmt('%.2f')
21:19 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«0.50␤»
21:19 moritz fsergot: yes, but by default, round rounds to the nearest integer
21:19 moritz nom: say sin(pi/6).round(0.01)
21:19 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«0.5␤»
21:20 moritz that also works
21:20 moritz masak: constant folding doesn't improve precision
21:20 fsergot Great. :)
21:21 masak moritz: in this case it could by recognizing sin(pi / 6) as a unit.
21:21 masak since everything in there is constant.
21:21 moritz masak: then it still needs a symbolic calculator to evaluate it to exactly 1/2
21:21 masak or just a static rule.
21:22 moritz such a static rule would be the simplest case of a symbolic calculator
21:22 fsergot Moving on. .. is there any built-in way to reduce fractions?
21:23 moritz yes, Rats are reduced by default
21:23 moritz nom: say (10/4).perl
21:23 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«5/2␤»
21:23 fsergot Perl6 is awesome. :)
21:23 masak nom: say (3/100 + 5/100).perl
21:23 p6eval nom 4130f6: OUTPUT«2/25␤»
21:23 moritz aye
21:24 masak did the rule about fractions such as the above not being reduced go away?
21:24 jaldhar joined #perl6
21:24 moritz masak: it now says that a compiler may choose not to reduce it, iirc
21:24 masak ah.
21:25 moritz masak: and the if the denominator contains only powers of 2 and 5, then the stringification is not allow to lose precision in the way that .Num.Str would
21:25 moritz (that's something that rakudo doesn't implemen tyet)
21:26 masak ooh
21:26 fsergot I learn new things every day and the rest of the day I can't go out from admiration. :)
21:36 dalek nqp/bs: 056f183 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/ (3 files):
21:36 dalek nqp/bs: First crack at giving NQP support for BEGIN blocks.
21:36 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/056f1833bd
21:36 dalek nqp/bs: 2ebb21b | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
21:36 dalek nqp/bs: Ensure code in BEGIN blocks can see the correct view of GLOBAL.
21:36 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2ebb21ba89
21:39 skids moritz: OK, updated.  Not that I'm married to the idea and feel inclined to build a solid case for it, I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.
21:39 Alias joined #perl6
21:42 fsergot perl6: sin(pi / 6).perl;
21:42 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 4130f6, niecza v14-57-gd05a5fe:  ( no output )
21:42 fsergot perl6: say sin(pi / 6).perl;
21:42 p6eval rakudo 4130f6: OUTPUT«0.499999999481858e0␤»
21:42 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«0.49999999999999994␤»
21:42 p6eval ..niecza v14-57-gd05a5fe: OUTPUT«0.49999999999999994e0␤»
21:42 masak why do you want a .perl on there?
21:43 moritz to see if it's a Rat again?
21:43 * moritz -> sleep
21:46 fsergot Hmm, don't know. just wanted to if the output will be different from the previous. :)
21:46 fsergot to see if*
21:47 fsergot 'night moritz
21:47 fsergot o/
21:49 lestrrat joined #perl6
21:49 sudokode joined #perl6
22:01 dalek rakudo/bs: ff1d98c | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
22:01 dalek rakudo/bs: Shuffle all stubbings to the top of the BOOTSTRAP.
22:01 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ff1d98c9e6
22:01 dalek rakudo/bs: fe33bb1 | jnthn++ | / (3 files):
22:01 dalek rakudo/bs: Split out BOOTSTRAP from the meta-objects; not been able to fully test the split yet. Tentatively start moving various bits of the stuff in BOOTSTRAP into a BEGIN block so we can serialize it.
22:01 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fe33bb1291
22:23 itz joined #perl6
22:38 nanowit_ joined #perl6
22:41 tarch joined #perl6
22:41 dalek nqp/bs: 42edd89 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
22:41 dalek nqp/bs: Make sure we can use anonymous subs in places we expect serialization to happen.
22:41 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/42edd89f4a
22:41 dalek nqp/bs: d2e0a5b | jnthn++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
22:41 dalek nqp/bs: Make sure blocks nested inside a BEGIN end up in the output code.
22:41 dalek nqp/bs: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d2e0a5babf
22:44 dalek rakudo/bs: aed4d40 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
22:44 dalek rakudo/bs: Replace a -> with 'sub' for consistency.
22:44 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/aed4d4099f
22:44 dalek rakudo/bs: c89b74d | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
22:44 dalek rakudo/bs: Use static code objects as needed; this gets us to the point where BOOTSTRAP is successfully serialized, and then successfully deserialized again when the compilation of CORE.setting causes it to be loaded. CORE.setting compilation itself fails right after that, though; many un-done NQP::World fixes to come.
22:44 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c89b74d06d
22:56 felher jnthn++ #for going wild on the {nqp,rakudo}/bs branches :)
22:56 wolfman2000 joined #perl6
22:58 masak 'night, #perl6
22:59 fsergot nn masak
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: 106f54f | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: Update module load handling for bounded serialization.
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/106f54f4da
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: 2d7798e | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: Toss deserialization code from import handling.
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2d7798e795
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: 2d17bbd | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: Update get_static_lexpad for bs.
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2d17bbde56
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: 8b28ce3 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: set_selector_creator should not be done in the BOOTSTRAP BEGIN block - that's too early.
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8b28ce3762
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: 335e631 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: Remove a workaround that we should no longer need, and deserialization code for adding to a static lexpad; it's just the fixup of the static lexpad overall that still needs to happen.
23:05 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/335e63199b
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23:13 fsergot o/ gnight!
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23:28 bacek_at_work phenny, tell moritz I'm going to merge parrot's cont_reuse branch really soon. You'll need take_recon branch merged with bumping up PARROT_REVISION.
23:28 phenny bacek_at_work: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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23:52 jnthn Enough for today...sleep &
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: 8a30010 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: Remove constant deserialization code-gen.
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8a3001021b
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: 1dfbcdc | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: create_code_object will be 'fun' to update. Start out by throwing away things we simply won't need any more.
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1dfbcdc93d
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: 9147bc5 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: Throw out various bits of now-unrequired deserialization code in install_lexical_container.
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9147bc5564
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: 20788b0 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ (2 files):
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: Need to set True/False after BEGIN, and also publish Parrot v-table mappings at that point as those are not serialized.
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/20788b0321
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: 534138f | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/World.pm:
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: Chase a HLL::World naming change in create_code; gets us a little further into compiling CORE.setting.
23:53 dalek rakudo/bs: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/534138f1df
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