Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-02-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:51 sorear adding IO::Socket::INET could be a nice medium-size niecza task
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03:32 colomon \o
04:22 sorear o/ colomon
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05:05 dalek niecza: a8cbc27 | sorear++ | lib/Cursor.cs:
05:05 dalek niecza: Encapsulate access to NFA nodes array
05:05 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/a8cbc27269
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07:14 masak morning, #perl6
07:15 moritz \o masak
07:17 masak http://groups.google.com/group/comp.​sources.d/browse_thread/thread/40fb7​6f3cc9ad102/e605e989bcb15f22?pli=1 is wonderful reading.
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07:18 masak somehow it gives the Perl 5 lineage a much more early-adopter, experimental feel.
07:18 * masak considers whether to start using "Pumpkin Perl" to refer to the Perl 5 lineage
07:21 masak there's not a trace of backwards-compat think at this stage.
07:22 masak TimToady is all like "oh, and I completely replaced the regex functionality with something else" (not a direct quote)
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07:30 pmurias sorear: hi
07:30 phenny pmurias: 22 Feb 23:17Z <colomon> tell pmurias "Can't locate Package/Stash.pm"
07:30 phenny pmurias: 22 Feb 23:24Z <colomon> tell pmurias Oh, just had to install Package::Stash for my new perlbrew p5.
07:30 colomon \o
07:30 pmurias colomon: hi
07:31 pmurias colomon: so the interop works now?
07:31 colomon the ansi-color test works fine, anyway
07:32 colomon I haven't found any of the S01 tests that work yet...
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07:32 pmurias the ones in t/spectest_p5.data work
07:32 pmurias there aren't many but i hope to change that soon ;)
07:33 colomon I'm trying a normal spectest run atm, will take a look at those as soon as it is done
07:33 pmurias ok
07:34 pmurias colomon: it would be great if you could describe what it takes to get the interop working on mac in the README
07:38 colomon and the t/spectest_p5.data tests do indeed work!
07:40 colomon pmurias: general README, or is there a p5 interop specific readme?
07:43 dalek roast: 8988efd | (Paweł Murias)++ | S01-perl-5-integration/import.t:
07:43 dalek roast: Change eval(...) or die into eval_lives_ok.
07:43 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8988efdefc
07:44 pmurias colomon: there isn't one yet
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07:45 pmurias colomon: not sure if we should have one
07:49 pmurias colomon: general README seems best
08:01 sorear pmurias: hi
08:01 sorear pmurias: release monday - a blurb on your p5 improvements would be nice.
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08:33 masak so... Niecza v15 coming up. niiiiice.
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08:46 dalek rakudo/nom: fab6a01 | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
08:46 dalek rakudo/nom: bump NQP revision
08:46 dalek rakudo/nom:
08:46 dalek rakudo/nom: This gives us the released parrot, and the :$var colonpair syntax
08:46 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fab6a017db
08:49 masak we still don't have a release manager for today?
08:49 moritz nope
08:49 masak I thought about volunteering.
08:49 moritz \o/
08:49 * masak does so
08:49 masak I'll probably cut the release tonight, at UTC 20:00
08:51 dalek rakudo/nom: cc6590a | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
08:51 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/release_guide.pod] volunteered for today's release
08:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cc6590a912
08:51 moritz ++masak
08:52 felher yeah, masak++
08:52 masak we've had a nice distribution of release managers in the past year or so.
08:53 masak moritz did the last two releases, though. and we don't have *any* names signed up for subsequent releases.
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08:53 masak sign up for March and April and May, peeps.
08:53 masak it's an easy way to take some load of people like moritz++ who already have lots of admin stuff to do.
08:54 masak plus, it's a great honour to get to cut a Rakudo compiler release.
08:57 moritz ... and it's not complicated :-)
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09:01 sorear masak: unless something truly catestrophic happens or I quit the post entirely, I intend to make a release EVERY month.
09:01 masak sorear: yes. still nice each time it happens.
09:11 masak phenny: eo en "Google Translate nun tradukas de Esperanto. Ĉu tio ĉi funkcias?"?
09:11 phenny masak: "Google Translate now translates from Esperanto. Does this work?" (eo to en, translate.google.com)
09:11 masak 'o-
09:11 masak \o/
09:13 katernya how long has perl6 been in development
09:14 katernya 10ish years i guess?
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09:15 moritz yes, about 11 to 12
09:16 katernya cool
09:17 masak it's shaping up real well, I'd say.
09:17 masak perl6: say "hi keternya!"
09:17 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo cc6590, niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«hi keternya!␤»
09:18 masak perl6: say "Perl 6 has been in development for over 11 years. That is ", <cool awesome interesting>.pick
09:19 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo cc6590, niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«Perl 6 has been in development for over 11 years. That is cool␤»
09:19 masak \o/
09:19 moritz wow, they all agree :-)
09:19 masak all three major implementations think it's cool.
09:19 katernya hehe
09:20 masak then it must be cool.
09:20 moritz though all of them are youger than 11 years :-)
09:20 moritz rakudo's git history goes back to 2006
09:20 au it's been in research for over 11 years, but in development for a bit less :)
09:21 moritz niezca's first commit was June 2010
09:21 moritz pugs started pretty much exactly 7 years ago
09:21 moritz (2005-02-06(
09:22 masak the first "Perl 6" commits were probably done not too long after the announcement. but it's questionable whether any of that code survives to this day.
09:22 moritz s:2nd/\(/)/
09:22 masak moritz: huh! I always thought Pugs started on Feb 1.
09:22 moritz masak: well, I just took the date of the first commit
09:22 au it's Feb 1. http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal/22965
09:23 masak right.
09:23 moritz as reported from the perl6/mu repo, which was an import fro pugs svn
09:23 au (moritz was also correct in that a svn repo wasn't set up until day 6)
09:25 * moritz remembers the bad old times when setting up a repo was much more work than writing 'git init'
09:25 au o/~ those were the days of dev's lives / easy things in life were so few o/~ ;)
09:25 frettled You mean like this?  cvs -d dirname init
09:26 moritz did cvs work without a server?
09:26 frettled yes
09:26 frettled (still does :))
09:27 moritz wow, I never knew
09:27 katernya insert joke about cvs ever working here
09:27 masak you people laugh -- some of us still have to use CVS daily :/
09:28 moritz but git-cvs does exist, no?
09:28 katernya hehe
09:28 masak yes.
09:28 masak that's my one ray of sanity.
09:28 frettled RCS was even simpler.
09:28 frettled 1) mkdir RCS
09:28 frettled Oh, already done.
09:28 masak :)
09:29 frettled RCS is probably still okay for single-developer usage, as long as you avoid binaries.  I don't know whether it handles UTF-8 etc, though.
09:29 moritz does it do branches and merges sanely?
09:30 frettled Sanely?  I'm not sure about that.  But it does do them.
09:31 frettled When the system is called "Revision Control System", it may be a bit primitive.
09:31 frettled Wow, it's turning 30 this year!  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wik​i/Revision_Control_System)
09:32 frettled …only ten years younger than SCCS!
09:33 katernya i think i just build perl6
09:33 katernya i'm afraid
09:33 moritz don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared, be prepared!
09:34 masak ...for crappy performance and frequent bugs... :)
09:35 moritz though both rakudo and niecza are much more usable than in The Early Days
09:35 pmurias sorear: have you found out how to speed up niecza?
09:36 masak oh, granted. we're getting better bit by bit.
09:36 * moritz should really blog about exceptions and backtraces
09:37 masak though there have been some lexical bugs lately of a kind that I thought we simply didn't get anymore.
09:37 moritz yes, there seems to be something not quite right yet with lexicals
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10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: 5d9f349 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: typed exceptions for attributes outside of packages, and for attributes inside package types that cannot handle them
10:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5d9f349d0c
10:43 dalek roast: 6467df2 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
10:43 dalek roast: test X::Attribute::Package and X::Attribute::NoPackage
10:43 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/6467df25fa
10:44 * moritz hopes masak++ doesn't mind some harmless exception hacking prior to the release
10:44 masak 'course not.
10:44 masak I'll start relenging tonight.
10:44 masak and I'll be very clear about when I don't want more commits.
10:45 moritz if I happen to break anything before then, we can still move the commits to a branch and revert them in nom
10:45 masak aye.
10:45 * araujo wonders when that release is going to be released
10:46 moritz araujo: certainly not before it's done :-)
10:46 fsergot hi o/ :)
10:46 araujo moritz, sure thing
10:46 moritz araujo: masak targets 8 pm UTC
10:46 araujo good :)
10:47 fsergot What should I do, if my 'rmdir' needs an external module?
10:47 moritz what module does it need?
10:48 fsergot Oh... It doesn't need any module! I have an idea. :D
10:49 fsergot moritz: it needed. a File::Find module.
10:49 fsergot but, it can use 'dir' instead of find. :)
10:49 * moritz is glad to detect the past tense
10:50 moritz std: has sub a() { }
10:50 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  'has' declaration outside of class at /tmp/vdMa4sQ6NH line 1:â�¤------> [32mhas[33mâ��[31m sub a() { }[0mâ�¤ok 00:01 109mâ�¤Â»
10:50 moritz nom: has sub a() { }
10:50 p6eval nom cc6590: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use 'has' scope with a sub at line 1, near ""␤»
10:50 moritz which error is more awesome?
10:50 moritz does 'has sub' ever makes sense?
10:51 fsergot The second one imo. :)
10:51 masak no, 'has sub' never makes any sense.
10:52 moritz std: class A { has method a() { }}
10:52 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
10:52 moritz nom: class A { has method a() { }}
10:52 p6eval nom cc6590:  ( no output )
10:52 moritz nom: class A { has method a() { say 'I CAN HAZ'}}; A.a
10:52 p6eval nom cc6590: OUTPUT«I CAN HAZ␤»
10:54 moritz nom: proto sub () { }
10:54 p6eval nom cc6590: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot put proto on anonymous routine at line 1, near ""␤»
10:54 moritz std: proto sub () { }
10:54 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
10:55 moritz nom: my method x() { }
10:55 p6eval nom cc6590:  ( no output )
10:55 moritz nom: my method x() { }; class A { }; A.^add_method('x', &x); A.^compose; A.x
10:55 p6eval nom cc6590:  ( no output )
10:56 moritz that's... slightly scary.
10:56 masak nom: my method x() { say "OH HAI" }; class A { }; A.^add_method('x', &x); A.^compose; A.x
10:56 p6eval nom cc6590: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
10:57 fsergot Could somebody take a look?
10:57 fsergot https://gist.github.com/1892277
10:57 fsergot to this :)
10:58 * masak looks
10:58 masak nice.
10:59 masak "Something is wrong" is not a very exact error message. :)
10:59 moritz fsergot: I have several smallish objections
10:59 masak maybe "Could not rmdir $path" would be better.
10:59 fsergot masak: Right, thanks. :)
10:59 moritz fsergot: first, checking for a condition before trying an IO operation is almost always wrong, because it's prone to race conditions
10:59 fsergot moritz: great, it'll help. :)
11:00 moritz fsergot: so it's better to simply try, and then inspect or propagate the error
11:00 masak ah, indeed.
11:00 moritz fsergot: second, I can imagine that the current factoring that &unlink removes directories is quite surprising
11:01 moritz fsergot: so I'd rather have unlink only unlik files, and rmdir only delete directories
11:01 masak I'd insert a check $path.IO ~~ :d
11:01 masak so that you can't rmdir a file.
11:01 moritz and then you have race conditions again :/
11:03 fsergot So, I should use try { } ? Or just check conditions after "unlinking"?
11:03 masak moritz: sure, but only if someone substitutes a directory for a file...
11:04 moritz fsergot: you should examine the return value from &unlink
11:04 moritz fsergot: and if that's not easy, then maybe &unlink needs to be factored differently
11:05 fsergot moritz++
11:05 fsergot masak++
11:05 moritz fsergot: though I wouldn't object to including a simple version of rmdir first
11:05 fsergot thanks.
11:05 moritz I don't want to force you to refactor all our IO build-ins just to add one :-)
11:06 masak fsergot++ # adding builtins
11:08 fsergot moritz: if it is needed, I'll do this. :)
11:09 fsergot moritz: I want to be more involved, so I must learn a lot. :)
11:09 moritz fsergot: that's a great attitude
11:10 moritz fsergot: and I'll do my best to support it, and I'm sure others will do the same
11:10 fsergot Great. :)
11:10 fsergot #perl6++
11:10 fsergot :)
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11:15 masak yes, three cheers for fsergot.
11:15 masak looking forward to meeting up in Oslo.
11:16 fsergot Today I received a message, that my flight is booked. \o/
11:16 moritz \o/
11:19 arnsholt Oooh, Oslo?
11:21 moritz arnsholt: sjn++ is organizing a Perl 6 in Oslo, April 20-22
11:21 moritz *a Perl 6 event
11:23 masak arnsholt: do come!
11:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 4c440e8 | moritz++ | src/ (3 files):
11:24 dalek rakudo/nom: more typed exceptions: X::Sub::Scope and X::Anon::Multi
11:24 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:24 dalek rakudo/nom: also enables a nicer way to write the type name of exceptions in Actions.pm
11:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4c440e8d6b
11:24 dalek roast: a2b6fc2 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
11:24 dalek roast: more typed exceptions
11:24 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a2b6fc205c
11:24 arnsholt masak: I'll definitely try to make it!
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11:24 arnsholt May have plans that week-end, but hopefully not
11:26 masak reschedule! :)
11:27 arnsholt Indeed ^_^
11:28 moritz I don't have an overview of who is going to come, but it's going to be an awesome mixture
11:30 moritz std: sub ($x:) { }
11:30 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/1Am_rp1SES line 1:â�¤------> [32msub ([33mâ��[31m$x:) { }[0mâ�¤ok 00:01 110mâ�¤Â»
11:30 moritz std: sub ($x, $y:) { }
11:30 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/wtBvi98hV4 line 1:â�¤------> [32msub ([33mâ��[31m$x, $y:) { }[0mâ�¤  $y is declared but not used at /tmp/wtBvi98hV4 line 1:â�¤------> [32msub ($x, [33mâ��[31m$y:) { }[0mâ�¤ok 00:01 110mâ�¤Â»
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11:31 masak yes, it will be quite the event.
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12:06 sisar what is the difference between pick and roll ?
12:07 colomon roll uses the entire source range every time
12:08 colomon pick logically removes items which have been rolled so they cannot be rolled again in the same call
12:08 felher sisar: what colomon++ said. For more information: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Containers.html
12:08 colomon nom: say (1..10).pick(5)
12:08 p6eval nom 4c440e: OUTPUT«1 8 3 9 5␤»
12:09 colomon nom: say (1..10).pick(9)
12:09 p6eval nom 4c440e: OUTPUT«2 1 3 8 10 5 4 6 9␤»
12:09 colomon nom: say (1..10).roll(9)
12:09 sisar colomon: ah. makes sense. pick and roll have been nicely chosen. perl6++
12:09 p6eval nom 4c440e: OUTPUT«8 8 6 5 7 6 1 6 2␤»
12:10 colomon sisar: note that it doesn't change the original object at all, so $a.pick(1) and $a.roll(1) have identical behavior
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12:19 sisar colomon: sorry, how does one imply the other?
12:19 sisar note.. , so..
12:19 colomon sisar: each one chooses one element at random
12:19 colomon hmmm... let me see if I can come up with a working example:
12:20 masak sisar: .roll works like rolling an N-sided die. .pick works like successively picking objects out of an urn.
12:20 colomon nom: my @a = 1..6; for ^20 { say @a.pick(1); }
12:20 p6eval nom 4c440e: OUTPUT«4␤5␤5␤5␤1␤6␤6␤3␤4␤5␤1␤5␤4␤6␤3␤5␤1␤2␤5␤4␤»
12:20 sisar masak: i get that
12:20 colomon but all the objects are put back in the urn at the end of the pick call.  :)
12:20 masak yes.
12:21 masak nom: say (1..6).pick(20)
12:21 p6eval nom 4c440e: OUTPUT«6 1 3 5 2 4␤»
12:21 masak nom: say (1..6).roll(20)
12:21 p6eval nom 4c440e: OUTPUT«2 3 4 6 4 2 5 4 4 4 6 4 5 3 2 5 6 5 5 5␤»
12:21 colomon so the only time you notice that pick is different from roll is if you ask it for more than one random choice
12:23 colomon and calling $a.pick(1) 20 times and storing the result has the same effect as calling $a.roll(20)
12:23 sisar now i get it. masak++, colomon++
12:27 sisar felher: it is not easy for beginners to extract this information from S32 . I actually did look at it before asking here :)
12:30 felher sisar: I totally agree :) I didn't want to tell you that have to look there. You may as well ask here :). I just wanted to point out to you that there is a documentation in case you want to do some further reading and don't know about the documentation yet :) But since you knew about S32 anyway, never mind :)
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12:48 dalek rakudo/nom: d1e7100 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
12:48 dalek rakudo/nom: more typed exceptions
12:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d1e7100fd9
12:48 dalek roast: 3b9a604 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
12:48 dalek roast: more typed exceptions
12:48 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3b9a60491c
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13:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 3ed1ece | coke++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
13:01 dalek rakudo/nom: claim a release
13:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3ed1eceb53
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13:03 Teratogen howdy howdy howdy
13:03 [Coke] masak++ # March is still unclaimed.
13:04 moritz [Coke]++ March release
13:04 [Coke] moritz: April
13:04 masak Teratogen! \o/
13:04 moritz erm, yes. I should just read the diff :-)
13:05 masak [Coke]++ # well vonunteer'd!
13:05 [Coke] I will be out of the country that day and will probably not want to do a release.
13:05 [Coke] (The march one.)
13:05 masak any takers for March? :)
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13:18 [Coke] (The march one.)
13:18 [Coke] ww
13:18 sisar niecza: my %h; say %h<chocolate>;
13:18 p6eval niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
13:18 sisar niecza: my %h; %h<chocolate>.say;
13:19 p6eval niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method say in class Any␤  at /tmp/bu9zYxMPse line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3826 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3827 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home/p6…
13:19 sisar bug ?
13:19 sisar or NYI ?
13:20 moritz niezca: 'foo'.say
13:20 moritz niecza: 'foo'.say
13:20 p6eval niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«foo␤»
13:21 moritz sisar: mixture, it seems :-)
13:21 moritz might be that niecza places .say in Cool instead of Any
13:21 sisar moritz: it seems to be choking on type Any()
13:21 masak niecza: my $a; $a.say
13:21 p6eval niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method say in class Any␤  at /tmp/9L2JFlDXKP line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3826 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3827 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home/p6…
13:21 moritz not sure what the specs say aout that
13:21 colomon nom: my $a; $a.say
13:21 p6eval nom d1e710: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
13:22 sisar rakudo does it correctly
13:22 sisar i should submit a bug ?
13:24 bkolera joined #perl6
13:24 [Coke] in roast, do we prefer "done" or "plan <number>" ?
13:24 moritz usually plan <number>
13:25 [Coke] (I have a file that has a done that pugs isn't respecting, so I'd like to switch it. ;)
13:25 [Coke] moritz: \o/ ;)
13:26 dalek roast: 7dc32a2 | coke++ | S02-literals/radix.t:
13:26 dalek roast: pugs fudge
13:26 dalek roast:
13:26 dalek roast: (also add explicit plan)
13:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7dc32a2922
13:27 dalek Pugs.hs: 0c7e93d | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
13:27 dalek Pugs.hs: run another test
13:27 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/0c7e93d658
13:27 moritz at least the exception hacking stuff works sometimes
13:27 lateau__ joined #perl6
13:27 moritz the last other 3 things that I tried in rakudo have failed :/
13:27 jferrero joined #perl6
13:30 moritz (sink context, the match refactor, and tracking down the problem with operator overloading; the last two are related)
13:33 * masak is surprised and delighted to see docs/ChangeLog filled with items for the upcoming release
13:35 moritz yes, jnthn++ has been keeping it up to date
13:35 [Coke] a thankless job. (he said, thanking him.)
13:36 dalek roast: e4dee67 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
13:36 dalek roast: X::Syntax::Missing
13:36 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e4dee67930
13:36 dalek rakudo/nom: 6588dd3 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
13:36 dalek rakudo/nom: X::Syntax::{Missing,Malformed}
13:36 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6588dd3980
13:37 * [Coke] wonders if rakudo or niecza might be passing more tests today.
13:38 * masak definitely thinks so
13:38 moritz [Coke]: probably niecza. I've only added O(10) tests today
13:41 tokuhirom joined #perl6
13:44 * [Coke] kicks off a run
13:45 [Coke] ... oof. rakudo upgraded to new parrot.
13:45 [Coke] pugs will finish running the tests before rakudo is done building parrot. ;)
13:45 drbean joined #perl6
13:46 [Coke] (yes that's a completely unfair comparison.)
13:47 masak like comparing apples and orangutans.
13:48 [Coke] au, masak: getting a ton of these running the test suite:
13:48 [Coke] decodeUTF8': bad data: '\171'
13:48 [Coke] (for pugs)
13:48 au that means « is written as latin1 instead of utf8 in source.
13:48 MayDaniel joined #perl6
13:49 au *test source
13:50 au pugs: « patientia diligentia humilitate ».pick: 2
13:50 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\171'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\187'␤»
13:50 moritz that would surprise me, since then rakudo would also complain
13:50 [Coke] perl6: « patientia diligentia humilitate ».pick: 2
13:50 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\171'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\187'␤»
13:50 p6eval ..rakudo 3ed1ec, niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27:  ( no output )
13:51 [Coke] so, clearly a bug somewhere. ;)
13:51 au pugs: say « patientia diligentia humilitate ».pick: 2
13:51 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\171'␤decodeUTF8': bad data: '\187'␤humilitatepatientia␤»
13:51 moritz pugs does that on the command line too
13:51 moritz so I don't blame p6eval
13:51 au hm, note it still runs the program
13:52 [Coke] mmm. just a lot of extra output running the test.
13:52 au ah, I know, it's due to new GHC's default :utf8 iomode
13:52 masak oh?
13:53 masak how does that make Pugs assume latin-1?
13:53 moritz sounds like a p5ish double-decoding problem
13:53 flussence perl6: say '£'.bytes
13:53 masak aye.
13:54 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\163'␤2␤»
13:54 p6eval ..niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«2␤»
13:54 p6eval ..rakudo 3ed1ec: OUTPUT«1␤»
13:54 masak o.O
13:54 * sisar has submitted an issue for the .say quirk
13:54 moritz which would be outright embarrasing, since if there's a type system that's suited to catch such errors statically, it's haskell's
13:54 masak sisar++
13:55 au moritz: well, yeah, pugs was written before it was possible to catch such errors :)
13:55 moritz au: but I'd still expect better magic from Haskell :-)
13:57 ab5tract joined #perl6
14:03 colomon nom: Mu.say
14:03 p6eval nom 3ed1ec: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
14:04 moritz perl6: (1|2).say
14:04 p6eval rakudo 6588dd: OUTPUT«any(1, 2)␤»
14:04 p6eval ..niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
14:04 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«any(VInt 1,VInt 2)␤»
14:04 au [Coke]: for the time being, please run pugs under LC_ALL=en_US.ISO-8859-1
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: 3d76478 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: refactor "Malformed" parse errors
14:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3d76478af8
14:05 au that'll likely fix the problem whilst maintaining compatibility with GHC 6.4
14:05 * au isn't sure if it's worth it to maintain compat with GHC 6.4, though, but it's the most expedient workaround.
14:06 fdafadfsda joined #perl6
14:06 PerlJam I guess Camel4 finally made it out the other side of the the O'Reilly publishing machine
14:07 Trashlord joined #perl6
14:07 masak good to see that O'Reilly is still publishing Perl books.
14:07 masak well, Perl book, at least.
14:08 * moritz generates en_US.ISO-8859-1 on the p6eval server
14:08 masak moritz++
14:08 au moritz++
14:09 p6eval joined #perl6
14:09 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
14:09 moritz pugs: say '£'.bytes
14:10 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:10 moritz pugs: say '£'.bytes
14:10 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:10 masak \o/
14:10 au pugs: say « 耐 勤 謙 ».pick: 2
14:10 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«耐勤␤»
14:11 au \o/
14:11 dalek evalbot: 7b533ee | (Perl 6 Evalbot)++ | evalbot.pl:
14:11 dalek evalbot: run pugs under a ISO-8859-1 locale, au++
14:11 dalek evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalbot/commit/7b533ee6fa
14:12 masak "patience, diligence, modesty"?
14:12 au *humility, but yeah.
14:13 masak ah, yes.
14:13 masak I'd say Pugs picked the appropriate two :)
14:13 au :D
14:20 moritz has anybody else noticed that emails from github use "--- \n" to delimit the signature?
14:21 moritz and that the normal one is "-- \n"
14:23 shinobicl_ joined #perl6
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14:24 moritz is there a github bug tracker?
14:25 masak perl6: say (join ",", map { "$_是$_" }, <四 十 十四 四十>), "。"
14:25 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** Undeclared variable: ("$_\230\152\175",MkPad (padToList [("$_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Scalar"), pe_proto = <Scalar:0x7f797c7acaa1>, pe_flags = MkEntryFlags {ef_isContext = True}, pe_store = <ref:0x7f797c8cb549>}),("@_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Array"…
14:25 p6eval ..rakudo 6588dd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $_是 is not declared␤at /tmp/h3gmcNEeCd:1␤»
14:25 p6eval ..niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Variable $_是 is not predeclared at /tmp/EkSPQLMspS line 1:â�¤------> [32msay (join ",", map { "[33mâ��[31m$_是$_" }, <å›› å�� å��å›› å››å��>), "。"[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line…
14:25 masak oh, of course.
14:25 masak perl6: say (join ",", map { $_ ~ "是" ~ $_ }, <四 十 十四 四十>), "。"
14:25 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 6588dd, niecza v14-63-ga8cbc27: OUTPUT«四是四,十是十,十四是十四,四十是四十。␤»
14:26 masak \o/
14:30 au moritz: https://github.com/contact for submission, I'm not sure if the issue list is made available publicly.
14:30 moritz au: I've used that now. I think I've seen a public issue list once, but I wasn't able to find it
14:30 au *nod*
14:36 dalek niecza: 8248afc | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
14:36 dalek niecza: Switch from having Cool.say to Mu.say.
14:36 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/8248afcd88
14:37 sisar sorear++
14:39 dalek roast: cccf2fb | moritz++ | S02-literals/radix.t:
14:39 dalek roast: fix plan in radix.t
14:39 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/cccf2fbd09
14:40 bkolera joined #perl6
14:41 gfldex nom: my $somedate = DateTime.new(now); $somedate.year++; say $somedate;
14:41 p6eval nom 3d7647: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2560␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/1NhQPXtKmn:1␤␤»
14:42 sisar oops! colomon++
14:42 moritz rakudo++
14:43 gfldex nom: my $somedate = DateTime.new(now); say $somedate.year + 365;
14:43 p6eval nom 3d7647: OUTPUT«2377␤»
14:43 gfldex nom: my $somedate = DateTime.new(now); say $somedate + 365;
14:43 p6eval nom 3d7647: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'Numeric'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu %_!)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:657␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2249␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/nuEEz9TuVJ:1␤␤»
14:44 moritz nom: say DateTime.now + Duration(year => 1)
14:44 p6eval nom 3d7647: OUTPUT«Method 'Duration' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:3430␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:3427␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:3422␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/pEsLop2lYK:1␤␤»
14:44 moritz nom: say DateTime.now + Duration.new(year => 1)
14:44 p6eval nom 3d7647: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:8552␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/RVKf_9IPrm:1␤␤»
14:45 gfldex if i understand S32 right the easy way to say "same day but next year" is to decompose Date|DateTime, add 1 to the year component and then compose a new Date|DateTime object
14:45 sisar can someone review my _trivial_ pull request: https://github.com/perl6/mu/pull/2
14:46 masak gfldex: maybe so. but things are still up for grabs. what's the nicest way you can think of to write it?
14:47 gfldex masak: the nicest way? Given that Perl 6 is a language of languages, the nicest way would be a sub language for calendaring.
14:47 PerlJam masak: my $date = now + 1.year;   #  :-)
14:47 gfldex I will think about something reasonable instead. Will take a few hours.
14:48 moritz sisar: I don't review pull requests. I've given you a commit bit instead :-)
14:48 moritz sisar: so feel free to merge it yourself
14:48 sisar moritz++
14:48 moritz (actually I do review pull requests if necessary; but not necessary here)
14:50 dalek mu: 3c3c531 | (Siddhant Saraf)++ | docs/feather/index.html:
14:50 dalek mu: fix: the site lives at mu, not Pugs' repository
14:50 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/3c3c531d70
14:50 dalek mu: 226129d | (Siddhant Saraf)++ | docs/feather/index.html:
14:50 dalek mu: Merge pull request #2 from Siddhant/patch-1
14:50 dalek mu:
14:50 dalek mu: fix: the site lives at mu, not Pugs' repository
14:50 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/226129d7d4
14:51 moritz sisar++
14:54 gfldex masak: The biggest problem I have with S32 is that it assumes the solar calendar is the only reasonable. Given what do to the only available planet we have right now, the solar calendar might be a thing of the past very soon.
14:55 moritz then we'll change S32 :-)
14:55 gfldex masak: on top of that, thanks to our fat moon, the dinosaurs enjoyed 23h per day and that rotational decline is still ongoing
14:57 moritz are there wildly used calendar systems that account for that?
14:57 moritz (except through the occasional leap second, which seems to work pretty well for most purposes)
14:58 sisar colomon: i can close the issue now? #.say
14:58 masak gfldex: I'm responsible for that crass solar bias in S32. it's been much more accomodating to various calendrickal systems at times.
14:58 masak it's also been perfectly unusable and unimplementable.
14:58 moritz agreed
14:58 masak gfldex: basically, the rule is, if you write it and nopaste the code here, you have a right to propose extensions and generalization.
14:59 moritz and inventing your own calendar system is just hopeless over-engineering for a programming language
14:59 masak otherwise, you are strongly encouraged to pipe down :)
14:59 moritz masak: otoh I would like to have an easy way to do some more DateTime arithmetic
14:59 masak nod.
14:59 moritz like the "same date, same time, but one year later"
15:00 masak a DT::Duration would cover that.
15:00 masak but I'm not sure it need be core.
15:00 moritz well, I'm not sure we need a separate type for it
15:00 masak gfldex: I'll add that few things provoke strong feelings/bikeshed wars like the combination of library-ish modules and everyday occurrances. DateTime hits a sweet spot there.
15:01 sisar how can i force p6eval to rebuild niecza ?
15:01 moritz DateTime.new.add(year => 1)
15:01 moritz evalbot rebuild niecza
15:01 p6eval OK (started asynchronously)
15:01 moritz sisar: you can only ask it nicely, not force it :-)
15:02 masak moritz: I recall CPAN's DateTime has some surprising semantics in that area. (units are added smallest-to-largest, IIRC)
15:02 sisar moritz: my bad :)
15:02 moritz evalbot rebuild niecza
15:02 p6eval NOT OK (maybe a rebuild is already in progress?)
15:02 masak moritz: it would be interesting to hear what autarch has to say about it.
15:02 dalek Rebuild of niecza complete.
15:03 moritz but I won't be the one to implement it, so I won't press the issue
15:03 moritz niecza: Any.say
15:03 p6eval niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
15:03 moritz niecza: Any.new.say
15:03 p6eval niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«Any()<instance>␤»
15:04 gfldex masak: most of the world is using a solar calendar based on gregorian reform, the islamic world however is still using a different one. If you want to find out when Ramadhan is due, DateTime wont help you much. And since I know that there are lots and lots of ppl who follow that religion, I was asking if our western default should be the default of Perl 6.
15:04 masak gfldex: yes, I understood you that way.
15:04 masak and my answer is "yes, it should".
15:05 moritz well, DateTime doesn't help you much in finding the next Easter date either
15:05 masak Instance is the atomic clock universal time line data type.
15:05 masak and DateTime is the Gregorian calendar Christian world civic time mapping of an Instant.
15:05 masak Instant*
15:05 * sisar closed the issue #.say
15:06 masak if you wanted, there's nothing at all preventing you from publishing a DateTime::Islamic module with a .when-is-ramadan method.
15:08 gfldex i think i will start with something easy first
15:08 gfldex ramadhan got the same problem then easter
15:08 moritz I'm pretty sure you'll find instructions online for calculating both
15:08 * PerlJam wonders if gfldex thinks the .when-is-ramadan method is the hard part
15:09 masak I'd love to see someone blog or nopaste about such datetime calculations in Perl 6. maybe we're still missing a few convenience methods in that area.
15:09 PerlJam gfldex: easter at least stays in the same general time-frame every year.  Ramadan could be at any time
15:10 moritz note that both Easter and Ramadan would be calculations on the Date level, not DateTime
15:11 masak http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/pv12h/perl_​6_compilers_pass_20k_specification_tests/c3sgfsh # that's a good point -- I want us to delight users as well
15:11 colomon sisar: might be worthwhile to add a test for it to roast.  (If there isn't one already that niecza is skipping.)
15:14 alim joined #perl6
15:16 gfldex moritz: i did for easter, most official even: http://www.assa.org.au/edm.html
15:18 moritz with example code in basic
15:23 moritz std: @$_
15:23 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
15:24 moritz std: $@_
15:24 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Placeholder variable @_ may not be used outside of a block at /tmp/Wr7pd_uvhU line 1:�------> [32m$[33m�[31m@_[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 108m�»
15:24 moritz std: sub { $@_ }
15:24 p6eval std 52f3895: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
15:25 masak that looks like QBasic or VB, even.
15:25 moritz my guess would have been QBasic
15:28 benabik joined #perl6
15:37 dalek rakudo/nom: 8bb2026 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
15:37 dalek rakudo/nom: another typed error
15:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8bb20269f8
15:38 dalek roast: 5065e35 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
15:38 dalek roast: test X::Anon::Augment
15:38 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5065e35d36
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15:50 sisar colomon: re test, I haven't learnt to write tests yet. Though i would like to :)
15:50 sisar any guidance ?
15:51 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:52 colomon sisar: do you have a github id?
15:52 moritz sisar: a test is just a small piece of code, together with the expectation of what it should produce
15:53 moritz a very simple example code would be   Any.say
15:53 kaleem joined #perl6
15:53 moritz and the expected output Any()\n
15:53 sisar colomon; yes. siddhant
15:54 moritz sisar: do you have niecza running?
15:54 sisar moritz: no
15:54 colomon moritz: I don't see any sign I have admin privileges for roast.  can you add him?
15:54 moritz colomon: he already has a commit bit
15:54 masak moritz: I wouldn't call that a test so much as "a golfed piece of code" :) for it to be a test, the expectation has to be encoded into the code, too.
15:54 colomon moritz: oh, groovy!
15:55 moritz colomon: I generally add new committers to the 'perl6' team, which includes specs, roast, mu, the websites etc.
15:55 colomon moritz++
15:55 colomon I've got to run to the computer store to see if they can bring by bricked Windows 64-bit machine back to life
15:55 moritz so, just about all repos in the perl6 organization, maybe with the exception of book, nqp and nqp-rx (but those only for hysterical raisins)
15:56 moritz sisar: well, the first step is to get one compiler running (and since you want to test niecza, it would make sense to use niecza here)
15:56 moritz sisar: otherwise you can't test your tests :-)
15:56 kaare__ joined #perl6
15:56 sisar moritz: i'm on it #getting niecza
15:57 moritz ok
15:59 colomon moritz++ masak++ sisar++
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16:03 dalek rakudo/nom: fdb5e3a | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
16:03 dalek rakudo/nom: X::Augment::NoSuchType
16:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fdb5e3a3ad
16:04 wolverian joined #perl6
16:04 dalek roast: 3804629 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
16:04 dalek roast: test X::Augment::NoSuchType
16:04 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3804629e62
16:09 * masak decommutes
16:17 Teratogen what's purple and commutes?
16:17 Teratogen an abelian grape!
16:19 Teratogen *rimshot*
16:20 bkolera joined #perl6
16:23 * moritz also decommutes
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17:11 [Coke] # 02/23/2012 - niecza++ ; pugs (15.54%); rakudo (98.98%)
17:11 [Coke] "niecza",     20283,     8,   751,  1549, 22588, 23594
17:11 [Coke] "pugs"  ,      3152,     5,  1742,    53,  4952, 23385
17:11 [Coke] "rakudo",     20078,    30,   602,  1869, 22445, 23604
17:14 [Coke] (rakudo is failing 2 more tests than yesterday, losing ground.)
17:18 araujo joined #perl6
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17:41 lichtkind just installed perl6
17:43 PerlJam lichtkind: which one?
17:43 lichtkind rakudo
17:43 lichtkind git pull
17:43 moritz lichtkind: congratulations
17:48 TimToady perl6: say "文字化け".chars
17:48 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«4␤»
17:50 au perl6: say "もじベーカリー".chars
17:50 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«7␤»
17:53 lichtkind moritz: thanks but i have to test the content of the slides with current version
17:55 noam joined #perl6
17:55 TimToady perl6: 𥄲
17:55 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&\240\165\132\178"␤    at /tmp/XgWy3otnuK line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
17:55 p6eval ..niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     '𥄲' used at line 0â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1344 (die @ 3) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 33) â�¤  at /home/p…
17:55 p6eval ..rakudo fdb5e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&𥄲' called (line 1)␤»
17:56 flussence that's... slightly worrying
17:56 TimToady so how come rakudo manages to get that character into the log correctly, while both pugs and niecza produce mojibake?
17:57 geekosaur the output from rakudo and niecza look similar here
17:57 benabik here as well
17:57 au (pugs always uses the \decimal notation regardless of BMPness)
17:57 geekosaur pugs is outputting octal-encoded utf8, from the looks of it
17:57 flussence I get � for input and rakudo/niecza on my screen
17:57 geekosaur oh decimal, not octal
17:58 TimToady in the ir clog, not here
17:58 TimToady I get the replacement character � here in irc
17:58 geekosaur what I actually have is a substitution glyph in the form of a box with 025132 in it
17:59 benabik rakudo: 𥄲 niezca: 𥄲
17:59 p6eval rakudo fdb5e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/iTSKGrMmUx:1␤»
17:59 TimToady even pasting it I get the replacement character, but it's obviously pasting the actual char in the irclock
17:59 TimToady *clog even
17:59 benabik I think my IRC client is adjusting the encoding on the fly.  :-/
18:00 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:00 flussence xchat defaults to brute-force decoding, iirc
18:00 au rakudo: "🐪📖".chars
18:00 p6eval rakudo fdb5e3:  ( no output )
18:00 az5112 joined #perl6
18:00 au rakudo: "🐪📖".chars.say
18:00 p6eval rakudo fdb5e3: OUTPUT«2␤»
18:00 au rakudo++
18:00 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:00 benabik I'm using Colloquy, which _says_ it's default encoding is UTF-8
18:01 TimToady well, some folks are probably running into font issues
18:01 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:01 TimToady but the splatter in the logs is obviously encoding failure of some sort
18:01 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:02 TimToady perl6: say "𥄲"
18:02 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«𥄲␤»
18:02 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:02 TimToady but apparently only on STDERR
18:02 TimToady the STDOUT comes out correctly in the logs
18:02 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:03 moritz TimToady: maybe the truncation cuts UTF-8 multi byte sequences in the middle
18:03 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:03 TimToady nah, this is in the middle
18:03 au perl6: $*ERR.say: "🐫"
18:03 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«🐫␤»
18:03 moritz TimToady: and then the whole line is detected as not being valid UTF-8
18:03 fglock joined #perl6
18:03 moritz and thus decoded as Latin-1 instead
18:03 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:03 fglock o/
18:03 au /o fglock
18:04 benabik perl6: $*ERR.say: "𥄲"
18:04 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«𥄲␤»
18:04 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:04 fglock au!
18:04 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:04 TimToady moritz: the entire pugs message comes through, so is not truncated in a multibyte
18:05 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:05 au [*] fglock
18:05 geekosaur interesting.  note that the entire niecza message is mis-decoded.  yet it's recognized as utf8 here
18:05 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:05 geekosaur (that is, it has more garbage for where I see a graphic marker)
18:06 * geekosaur scans back to see if that's normal
18:06 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:06 geekosaur the log also mangles utf8 from std
18:06 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:06 flussence perl6: � # just want to make sure I'm not going insane
18:06 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "\65533"␤    expecting program␤    at /tmp/5s0TIMREzY line 1, column 1␤»
18:06 p6eval ..niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Bogus statement at /tmp/umUpxMPas4 line 1:�------> [32m<BOL>[33m�[31m� # just want to make sure I'm not going[0m��Parse failed��»
18:06 p6eval ..rakudo fdb5e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/XDqBVS2z6_:1␤»
18:07 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:07 geekosaur (actually the graphic marker botch is std, niecza has ansi-x3.64 escapes instead)
18:07 TimToady the end of the niecza is cut off at: â�¤  at /home/p…
18:07 flussence I like pugs' blunt message there :)
18:07 TimToady how did a chop of p6eval produce mojibake in the middle of the ASCII 6?
18:07 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:08 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:08 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:09 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:09 fglock au: http://perlcabal.org/~fglock/perlito5.html
18:09 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:10 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:10 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:11 au fglock: I've been showing that to all sorts of folks :)
18:11 au _very_ nice work!
18:11 fglock :)
18:11 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:11 au fglock: I wonder if p52p6 can be made into a similar web interface as well
18:11 * au also ponders styling it a bit along the lines of js2coffee.org
18:11 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:12 fglock p52p6? you mean http://perlcabal.org/~fglock/perlito6.html ?
18:13 au that's p62js...
18:13 TimToady geekosaur: what you said makes no sense to my poor brane
18:14 au fglock: I was thinking along the line of hypotehtical Perlito5::Perl6::Emitter
18:14 geekosaur TimTOady: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2012-02-23#i_5196898
18:15 fglock ah, sure
18:15 * geekosaur glares at mis-shift, d*mn finfers
18:17 TimToady niecza: $@_
18:17 p6eval niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Invalid hard reference syntax at /tmp/XiKE_kXtZC line 1:�------> [32m$[33m�[31m@_[0m��Parse failed��»
18:17 geekosaur I hadn't yet managed to answer my other question though
18:17 geekosaur just noting that the irc logs don't seem to like what std produces, either
18:18 TimToady geekosaur: niecza and std appear to behave identically on the output of ⏏ and escape codes
18:18 TimToady then I don't understand what you meant by "instead"
18:18 fglock a p6 backend could actually be fun, because we can then bootstrap in perl6
18:19 au fglock: yup, you see (as usual) where I'm going with this (as usual) :)
18:20 geekosaur that was "the example I was looking at didn't seem to have both of them doing both of them, but as I'm still a trifle discombobulated and in need of naproxen I may not see the same thing next time I look at it)
18:20 geekosaur s/)$/"
18:21 geekosaur irclog does seem to have problems with niecza in general; makes me wonder if the problem is *its* decoder is being thrown off by the escape sequences, and deciding to decode the output as raw bytes
18:22 moritz yes; some weeks or month ago, it started to render lines with escape sequences as mojibake
18:22 PerlJam fglock: does perlito leverage std at all?
18:23 fglock no, it has it's own grammar
18:23 fglock it was developed as-needed for bootstrapping
18:23 fglock it's under a cleanup...
18:26 fglock perlito6 is getting a little behind, as I'm working on the p5 version - but getting closer to STD (and the spec in general) is a priority
18:32 [Coke] nom: say 36-2+1+96
18:32 p6eval nom fdb5e3: OUTPUT«131␤»
18:32 fglock au: p52p6 is potentially easy - between 600 and 1000 loc, judging from p52js
18:33 fglock plus maybe some additional runtime for some special cases
18:34 au right, though if the runtime is perlito6's p5 backend, the runtime can be metacircularly stubbed at first
18:35 jnthn evening o/
18:35 masak evening o/
18:35 au . o O "p52p6onp5"
18:35 masak jnthn! \o/
18:35 au /o jnthn
18:35 PerlJam Any p52p6 translator has some huge benefits
18:36 au would drastically simplify first-pass porting CPAN modules
18:36 PerlJam yep
18:36 fglock hmm
18:36 * geekosaur misreads p52p6pong, is vastly amused by idea
18:36 TimToady especially if it can translate XS too :P
18:37 TimToady but yes, translation is certainly important; even imperfect tranlation is very helpful
18:37 jnthn No wifi internets at $teaching-gig today...
18:38 pernatiy joined #perl6
18:38 fglock I have some 2h of tuits before going to sleep
18:38 benabik p52p6pong...  Start with a piece of code.  One person translates it to perl 5.  The other translates the result to perl 6.  You get a point when your opponent introduces an error.
18:38 au geekosaur: 5|.    |6   # first failing roundtrip drops the ball
18:38 au benabik: jinx!
18:39 au fglock: ooh. a 2hr sketch would be great to see -- I've checked out the repo :)
18:39 TimToady write both translators in Haskell and apply some kind of fixed point analysis :)
18:39 moritz 5|   . |6
18:39 fglock looking for a p6 install
18:39 au 5|  [.]  |6  # least fixed point
18:40 * PerlJam wonders if he should pass a geiger counter over this mug he just got from an ex-LANL researcher
18:40 TimToady no, you need an N-ray detector to see if it has any residual polywater
18:41 * jnthn skims the backlog, and sees Rakudo gained some release managers :)
18:41 Teratogen the transtator is the basis of all Federation technology!
18:42 TimToady it'll be the March of Progress
18:42 fglock cloning rakudo
18:42 Teratogen I think duotronics should be incorporated into Perl 6!
18:42 jnthn .oO( now we just need to clone Rakudo developers :) )
18:43 TimToady write the developers in Perl 6 and then you can .clone 'em
18:43 fglock au: cp src5/lib/Perlito5/Javascript/Emitter.pm src5/lib/Perlito5/Perl6/Emitter.pm
18:43 * jnthn ponders what it'd take to re-write himself into Perl 6.
18:43 TimToady the Singu^WPlurality is Near!
18:45 gfldex frankly OT but not the less quite funny: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=61095
18:46 Teratogen Does PHP have namespaces now?
18:46 moritz yes
18:47 Teratogen nifty!
18:47 Teratogen Now there can be PHPAN
18:48 PerlJam that wasn't what was holding them back from PHPAN at all
18:48 TimToady what the world badly needs is a refactoring PHP to Perl 6 translator :)
18:49 moritz are you talking about me? :-)
18:49 TimToady you were holding them back?
18:50 au you were a refactoring PHP to Perl 6 translator?
18:50 TimToady did you add namespaces to PHP?
18:50 au are you the Nullarity?
18:51 TimToady now yer just gettin' silly
18:51 au evidently a symptom of low glucose level... dinner &
18:52 TimToady chow
18:52 fglock ~/bin/d8 perlito5.js -- -Cperl5 src5/lib/Perlito5/Perl6/Emitter.pm > lib5/Perlito5/Perl6/Emitter.pm  # looks good so far
18:53 TimToady though if au++ is still in Paris, I'm sure they don't appreciate dinner being called "chow"
18:53 PerlJam TimToady: but it's okay because au isn't american.
18:53 fridim_ joined #perl6
18:54 * TimToady has a brane retroplosion
18:54 au considering "Bistro" originates from "bistouille" meaning "bad alchohol", "chow" would be a step up
18:54 TimToady anyway, that's for setting me up for a multi-lingual pun
18:54 TimToady *thanks
18:55 au anytime :)
18:55 TimToady how did "thanks" turn into "that's"...grr...
18:56 TimToady though it would have been even better had you been dereved from that dynasty instead
18:56 TimToady *derived, grr
18:56 * TimToady blames this chinese keyboard...
18:57 pmurias_ joined #perl6
18:57 TimToady (lenovo, so yes :)
18:57 TimToady bbl &
18:58 fglock hmm - I guess I need some quick help with perl6 - does it still have 'package"?
18:58 PerlJam fglock: yes
18:59 fglock and bless?
18:59 dalek roast: 0c4cae6 | coke++ | S02-literals/radix.t:
18:59 dalek roast: workaround pugs skip bug
18:59 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0c4cae6fed
18:59 PerlJam yes, but you rarely see it
18:59 fglock (rakudo still installing)
18:59 Teratogen I immediately regret this decision!
18:59 fglock yes, but I probably need it for p52p6
18:59 [Coke] Can someone enable issues for https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs ?
18:59 [Coke] (or point me at the tracker for pugs?)
19:00 moritz I can, wait a sec
19:01 moritz issues are enabled
19:01 [Coke] so, the plan count you just fixed is because pugs' skip can't skip counts.
19:01 fglock implementing Perl6::inline() :P
19:01 [Coke] (but it was hidden because in the .t, it was skipping a block.)
19:02 * moritz counted the tests manually, just be sure
19:02 * [Coke] did too, after you changed it. ;)
19:02 moritz niecza and rakudo agree with my count :-)
19:05 [Coke] masak: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/1
19:05 pyrimidine joined #perl6
19:05 [Coke] (also au)
19:08 jnthn afk, dinner
19:09 dalek Pugs.hs: 1ed3e0c | moritz++ | Pugs/ext/Test/lib/Test.pm:
19:09 dalek Pugs.hs: [Test] fix order of arguments of skip()
19:09 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/1ed3e0c026
19:11 [Coke] now, see I swear I tried that and it didn't work. ;)
19:11 * [Coke] will test it.
19:12 moritz [Coke]: I haven't actually tried it
19:12 moritz [Coke]: just thought it should fix it
19:12 [Coke] nope. doesn't work.
19:12 moritz :(
19:13 [Coke] now, perhaps i need to do something in the ./Pugs directory to make it... noticed, but I don't know what.
19:13 [Coke] "make" didn't do anything. trying "cabal build"
19:14 PerlJam moritz: you also didn't change the signature on line 604 either
19:14 [Coke] nope.
19:15 moritz [Coke]: how do you run spectests for pugs?
19:16 [Coke] moritz: I documented that!
19:16 [Coke] last section in HACKING
19:16 ksi joined #perl6
19:17 moritz [Coke]++
19:18 fglock what should I use for "null" in perl6?
19:18 moritz fglock: Any
19:18 moritz maybe Pugs/cbits/Test_pm.c needs to be regenerated?
19:18 dalek Pugs.hs: f0bd746 | coke++ | / (3 files):
19:18 dalek Pugs.hs: Add LC env var.
19:18 dalek Pugs.hs:
19:18 dalek Pugs.hs: (Avoid UTF8 issues)
19:18 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/f0bd74604c
19:19 [Coke] moritz: I thought that was for the original Test versiohn, not the external one that the env var is pulling in.
19:19 dalek Pugs.hs: 47cc4a9 | moritz++ | Pugs/ext/Test/lib/Test.pm:
19:19 dalek Pugs.hs: [Test.pm] also fix docs, PerlJam++
19:19 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/47cc4a9b53
19:19 moritz [Coke]: have you checked if it pulls in the right one?
19:20 * PerlJam attempts to run pugs for the first time in years
19:28 skids joined #perl6
19:32 [Coke] moritz: well, the env var changes something, anyway.
19:32 [Coke] beyond that, no.
19:34 jlaire * masak hates the phrase "it didn't used to"
19:34 * jlaire likes the obscure "it usedn't to"
19:34 masak I like that too :)
19:35 Teratogen I'm givin' her all she's got, Cap'n!
19:35 jlaire it tends to result in some o.O looks, though
19:35 jlaire "what'd you say?"
19:35 moritz [Coke]: if I add a die "..." to Test.pm, then it does die. So I think it works with the right Test.pm
19:37 PerlJam pugs: class A { } ;  A.new.perl
19:37 p6eval pugs b927740:  ( no output )
19:37 PerlJam pugs: class A { } ;  A.new.perl.say
19:37 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«A.new()␤»
19:38 [Coke] and are you using PUGS_USE_EXTERNAL_TEST=1 ?
19:38 moritz pugs: for (1..3) { say $_ }
19:38 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
19:38 moritz pugs: multi sub skip(Str $reason?, :$depends) { say 1 }; multi sub skip(Str $reason, Int $count = 1, :$depends) { say 2 }; skip('foo', 3)
19:38 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«2␤»
19:40 moritz ok, it seems that only the first multi is ever called
19:40 ribayr joined #perl6
19:41 moritz oh, f**k those multis
19:43 dalek Pugs.hs: f3ef7f0 | moritz++ | Pugs/ext/Test/lib/Test.pm:
19:43 dalek Pugs.hs: [Test.pm] replace complicated, non-working multis with a short, simple, do-it-all only sub
19:43 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/f3ef7f042f
19:43 fglock hm - problems: Too late for semicolon form of $*PKGDECL definition at line 7, near "my $x;  my"
19:44 fglock after: module Main;
19:44 fglock is the syntax for "module" different?
19:44 fglock in latest rakudo
19:45 [Coke] moritz++ #that does it
19:46 dalek roast: 7d89666 | coke++ | S02-literals/radix.t:
19:46 dalek roast: Revert "workaround pugs skip bug"
19:46 dalek roast:
19:46 dalek roast: This reverts commit 0c4cae6fedfb1ccc0d18c312117a6e23c21412d7.
19:46 dalek roast:
19:46 dalek roast: moritz++
19:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7d896663d0
19:46 fglock working around
19:47 fglock yay! $ perl -Ilib5 perlito5.pl -Cperl6 t5/01-sanity.t > x.p6 ; /Users/fglock/projetos/rakudo/perl6 x.p6
19:47 fglock 2 tests pass
19:47 fglock p5 to rakudo
19:47 colomon nom: my @a = 2, 4 ... 20; my @b = 1..10; say @a[0..*-1] Z+ @b[1..*]
19:47 p6eval nom fdb5e3: OUTPUT«4 7 10 13 16 19 22 25 28␤»
19:48 fglock pushed
19:55 fglock "Redeclaration of symbol" - is there a way to silence this warning/error in rakudo?
19:55 masak fglock: re the "too late" message: you're probably using the semicolon form after using the block form, or something.
19:56 masak fglock: the rule, to a first approximation, is that it can only cover a whole file.
19:56 fglock ah, that's it - I have it more than once
19:56 masak (with some exceptions for use statements, because you sometimes need to import things in order to write the 'A is B' thing correctly)
19:56 masak yeah, more than once is forbidden.
19:56 masak this isn't Perl 5 ;)
19:58 fglock ok - I'll workaround
19:58 masak fglock++
19:58 fglock "use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context" too
19:58 masak nom: say ~my $a
19:58 p6eval nom fdb5e3: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context␤␤»
19:58 fglock anyway, a lot of tests pass now :)
19:58 masak \o/
19:59 * TimToady pictures fruit laying on the ground :)
19:59 masak re macros2 merge: I talked it over a bit with jnthn++, and it appears that the bug moritz++ uncovered opens up a bigger can of worms than expected. so, holding off for this release.
20:00 * TimToady pictures cans of worms laying on the ground...
20:01 masak well, they're crawling out of newly opened cans... :)
20:02 masak short explanation: the "need for incarnation" of the quasi ASTs (which is now implemented) goes for the macro-arg ASTs, too (which is not).
20:03 fglock heh - "Calling 'shift' will never work with no arguments" - the error messages are pretty good
20:03 TimToady so just run each of the args though a macro, and you'll have it :)
20:03 masak reason it's a bigger can of worms is that whereas the macro sub is "live", compiled code and easily incarnatable-from, the mainline code isn't.
20:04 masak TimToady: I actually had a very similar thought yesterday, in all earnestness. it didn't work out :)
20:05 MayDaniel joined #perl6
20:06 TimToady yeah, rakudo is still recovering from a kind of non-homoiconic-ish notion of the difference between compile time and run time
20:07 TimToady to misuse a word for something I don't have a word for...
20:07 masak during my thinking about macros, I've stopped using the terms "run time" and "compile time" -- they don't serve me well, since macros contain a bunch of them nested within each other.
20:07 TimToady indeed
20:07 masak I find it much easier to say "run mode" and "compile mode". I don't require that everyone follow suit. :)
20:07 alim_ joined #perl6
20:08 * gfldex thinks computers are the only thing that keeps us from changing the number of days per week every odd year (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week)
20:08 masak a macro is a run-mode routine that assists in a compile-mode code substitution. :)
20:08 TimToady but parrot originally ran things off into the separate-compilation direction without much consideration of what was being lost
20:09 TimToady which is a funny mistake to make when you're trying to be a dynamic engine
20:09 masak TimToady: sorear said at some point the Perl 6 is the only language he knows that tries to unite the two disparate ideas of separate compilation and fuzzy run mode/compile mode boundary.
20:10 TimToady well, we're insane
20:10 TimToady no, we're not!
20:10 masak there is that... :)
20:10 PerlJam sanity is over-rated
20:13 TimToady well, linking/unifying global names is really the main tricky part there, once you have a snapshot model of compilation so that you don't actually care which process compiles or runs code
20:13 * masak goes into Rakudo releng mode
20:13 * TimToady admires jnthn++ for naming the latter part 'bs' though :)
20:13 [Coke] TimToady: is this true? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl#Name "Perl was originally named "Pearl", after the Parable of the Pearl from the Gospel of Matthew" ?
20:14 [Coke] ovid just pointed this out.
20:14 TimToady not exactly
20:14 TimToady I just wanted something with positive connotations, the parable is just one after-the-fact rationalization
20:14 PerlJam TimToady: is it more or less true than "Perl stands for pathologically eclectic rubbish lister"?   :-)
20:14 masak HEY PEOPLE I DON'T WANT TO SEE NON-RELENG COMMITS TO THE RAKUDO NOM BRANCH NOW FOR A BIT OK
20:15 masak ...kthx
20:15 TimToady PerlJam: sure, I made that one up myself
20:15 TimToady you'll note that one was after we dropped the 'a'
20:15 colomon "non-releng"?
20:15 masak colomon: not related to the release.
20:16 PerlJam a separate release branch would oviate all of the shouting.
20:16 PerlJam er obviate
20:17 masak "oviate" -- turn it into an egg?
20:17 TimToady funny that we call that part "engineering" that is mostly closely related operators moving magtapes from drive to drive :)
20:17 * PerlJam waits for all of the puns
20:17 TimToady *to operators
20:17 mathw I think it's just so that the people doing that thankless, often tedious job get to feel better about it
20:17 masak that's what I'm doing now. I'm moving the Rakudo nom magtapse around in my server room.
20:18 geekosaur "I am only an egg"
20:18 TimToady it's the folks who wrote the directions for doing a release that are the real engineers, but yes, it's trying to be nice to be people who are doing the scutwork :)
20:18 masak don't say Rakudo release engineering is thankless -- volunteer for March instead!
20:18 * mathw imagines masak standing over some tapes with a magnet, painstakingly encoding the new release onto the master prior to duplication
20:18 * TimToady pictures a March Hare
20:19 mathw masak: unfortunately I have no time for anything these days :( I've not even pulled Rakudo for about three months
20:19 masak mathw: aww
20:19 * colomon is going to see the March Hare next week, he hopes: https://www.google.com/calendar/render?eid=M​Gs3cjI2aWRhOTgwcW5xNTI1NWt1MTJpdTAgc2hrOHZzc​WM2aG12Z2ttbzl0NHJxdmJqcGNAZw&amp;ctz=Americ​a/St_Johns&amp;pli=1&amp;gsessionid=hlWQY4PF​y7uUGQ5xLPz47w&amp;sf=true&amp;output=xml
20:19 colomon whoops, ugly link
20:19 TimToady in the time you said that, you could've started pulling :)
20:20 mathw masak: well actually I do have time for lots of things, but because I'm doing those I'm not doing Perl 6 things
20:21 [Coke] TimToady: updated the article. we'll see if it sticks.
20:21 masak mathw: we love you anyway :)
20:21 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
20:22 mathw I love you all :)
20:22 masak <3
20:22 masak oops, this is a Unicode channel. I meant: ♥
20:23 mathw that's better
20:23 PerlJam hugs are one thing ... but this feels a little too much like inappropriate sharing  ;)
20:24 mj41 joined #perl6
20:25 * masak hugs PerlJam :)
20:26 geekosaur (but Hugs is haskell, not p6!  :p)
20:26 * TimToady pugs geekosaur
20:27 mathw hug :: Person -> Person -> IO Person
20:27 masak aww
20:27 * masak tweets that
20:28 fglock joined #perl6
20:28 jlaire what's the return value? o.O
20:28 gfldex a child process?
20:29 masak that's the other thing, not hugging.
20:29 PerlJam indeed
20:29 mathw it returns the hugged person and has the side effect of increasing theuniversal happiness level
20:29 jlaire oic
20:30 benabik So it's easier to fold hug across a list of people?
20:30 masak "We need 4 hugs a day for survival. We need 8 hugs a day for maintenance. We need 12 hugs a day for growth." -- Virginia Satir, author and psychoterapist
20:30 mathw I don't get 4 hugs a day!
20:30 mathw unless you count allthe ones from the cat
20:31 masak I think cat hugs count.
20:31 gfldex mathw: i'm terribly sorry but that can only mean you are undead
20:31 PerlJam cat hugs count for the cat at least :)
20:31 * TimToady is going to have trouble fitting all the glasses of water in between all the hugs
20:31 gfldex what may explain why zombies walk with their armes extended
20:32 masak TimToady: what is it with you US people and water? :)
20:32 masak food contains water, it's cool, you don't have to hydrate all the time just because.
20:32 TimToady some of us live in a desert
20:32 masak then you get an exception.
20:33 mathw it's not just US people, it's UK people too
20:33 mathw a lot of people here think you're supposed to drink six pints of water a day
20:33 mathw but the closest most people get is six pints of beer a day
20:33 mathw or its equivalent in wine
20:39 fsergot joined #perl6
20:39 jnthn To be fair, the six pints of beer may well taste far nicer than the six pints of water :)
20:41 masak jnthn: I heard you've been updating https://github.com/rakudo/ra​kudo/blob/nom/docs/ChangeLog -- jnthn++ -- do I conclude that this means I don't have to go through the logs and check for omissions? ;)
20:41 jnthn masak: Just look what happened since the last commit to ChangeLog :)
20:41 masak oki
20:41 mathw jnthn: unlikely!
20:41 jnthn Everything before that ChangeLog commit should be covered.
20:41 masak what about https://github.com/rakudo/r​akudo/blob/nom/docs/ROADMAP -- does it need any tweaks?
20:42 mathw jnthn: most of them drink that gassy stuff that comes out of soaking wet cold pump things on the bar
20:42 jnthn mathw: Sad but true.
20:42 jnthn Carling. Fosters. EWWW.
20:43 mathw Strongbow
20:43 mathw *shudder*
20:43 * mathw is more of a cider person
20:45 masak I note that SPb.pm (St Petersburg) has never figured in a release. this will be rectified.
20:45 masak ...unless someone has a better suggestion... :)
20:47 icwiener joined #perl6
20:47 icwiener joined #perl6
20:48 mykhal joined #perl6
20:48 jnthn masak: SPb FTW :)
20:48 jnthn *that* bar.
20:50 jnthn Maybe this will be the year when I finally make it to Saint Perl. :)
20:50 mathw where's YAPC::EU this year?
20:50 benabik Europe, probably.
20:51 mathw ...
20:51 mathw I would hope so
20:51 mathw "In a surprise announcement, this year's YAPC::EU is going to be held in the lost city of Atlantis, just as soon as we find out where it went."
20:52 benabik Frankfurt, according to http://act.yapc.eu/ye2012/
20:52 fglock can you help me with this one: "Placeholder variable @_ may not be used here because the surrounding block takes no signature"
20:52 masak aye, Frankfurt.
20:52 * geekosaur carefully does not mention that to people talking about sg:a fic in another channel :p
20:52 mathw awesome, maybe it's time I renewed my passport
20:52 mathw I've not been to Germany for ages
20:52 masak fglock: @_ assumes that you're in a routine. apparently, you're not.
20:53 fglock it's inside sub xxx { ...
20:53 masak nom: sub xxx { say @_ }; xxx 1, 2, 3
20:53 p6eval nom fdb5e3: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
20:53 masak fglock: are you inside a block inside sub xxx { ?
20:54 fglock yes, a do-block
20:54 au fglock: perl6: (-> *@_ { say @_[0] })('hello')
20:54 au perl6: (-> *@_ { say @_[0] })('hello')
20:54 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«hello␤»
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 41349bf | masak++ | docs/ChangeLog:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/ChangeLog] added one more change
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/41349bf21a
20:56 au perl6: (sub (*@_) { do { say @_[0] } } )(3)
20:56 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo fdb5e3, niecza v14-64-g8248afc: OUTPUT«3␤»
20:58 masak how come there's a 2012.11 release on https://github.com/perl6/nqp/tags ?
20:58 masak just curious.
20:58 moritz my fault
20:58 moritz should be 2011.12
20:58 benabik Time traveling code!
20:58 masak oh, I see they're the same.
20:58 benabik Quick, download it and find out what we're going to fix!
20:58 masak moritz: can I remove it?
20:59 jnthn Quite a nice ChangeLog this month
21:00 jnthn moritz++ for much of it :)
21:00 masak jnthn++ for the rest ;)
21:00 fglock au: would you checkout & try: find t5/*.t | perl -ne ' print "*** $_"; chomp; print ` perl -Ilib5 perlito5.pl -Cperl6 $_ > tmp.p6 && perl6 tmp.p6  ` '
21:01 fglock 2h passed - running out of tuits
21:02 au woot!
21:03 au all pushed? I'll check it out in a few mins
21:03 masak fglock++!
21:03 au s/few mins/couple hours/ :)
21:03 au fglock++
21:04 fglock :)
21:05 fglock afk
21:12 dalek nqp: 4da1150 | masak++ | VERSION:
21:12 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2012.02
21:12 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4da115073f
21:14 [Coke] jnthn++ #CL maintenance.
21:16 * [Coke] wonders how to reorder windows in irssi.
21:16 TimToady /win move 3
21:17 PerlJam [Coke]: also, check your "windows" section in ~/.irssi/config if you've saved your windows state
21:17 [Coke] well, that seems obvious now that I know what it is. ;)
21:17 dalek rakudo/nom: 5aa315f | masak++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
21:17 dalek rakudo/nom: [tools/build/NQP_REVISION] updated
21:17 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5aa315f65b
21:17 PerlJam [Coke]: (assuming you'd like the window locations to be somewhat permanent)
21:18 * PerlJam always puts #perl6 on window 6 for some reason :)
21:18 [Coke] I have no idea how to save windows state.
21:18 PerlJam /save
21:19 masak it's all so obvious
21:20 PerlJam the computer just do it if it's so obvious!
21:20 PerlJam *should
21:20 * [Coke] wonders if that will mess with his hand carved .irssi files.
21:21 TimToady okay, how do I make it page forward every time I hit space, except when I want to type space?  :)
21:21 PerlJam You have to install the ESP module first
21:21 PerlJam and then the DWIM module
21:22 huf will that make focus follow my will?
21:22 * PerlJam ponders a vi-mode for irssi
21:22 huf also no longer will we have to stop typing just to eat
21:22 tadzik PerlJam: I don't think that'd make sense
21:23 PerlJam naturally, there already /is/ a vi-mode
21:23 huf i... huh?
21:24 PerlJam google it if you haven't already
21:24 Chillance joined #perl6
21:25 masak tools/update-tai-utc.pl is broken. could someone confirm? just run `perl tools/update-tai-utc.pl src/core/tai-utc.pm` in a fresh rakudo checkout.
21:25 masak it loops forever on the warning 'Use of uninitialized value $lines[0] in pattern match (m//) at tools/update-tai-utc.pl line 18.'
21:26 jnthn Can't locate Time/y2038.pm in @INC
21:26 jnthn guess I'm missing a dep here
21:26 PerlJam same here
21:26 masak yeah, I did too.
21:26 masak I installed it.
21:27 PerlJam heh
21:27 PerlJam "This program should next be run in February."
21:27 PerlJam It seemingly ran fine for me.
21:28 PerlJam masak: what version of perl?
21:29 masak 5.10.1
21:29 masak PerlJam: did it change the file?
21:29 PerlJam It did not.  Has another leap second been added?
21:30 masak I conclude it hasn't.
21:30 PerlJam I ran it fine with both 5.12.4 and 5.14.2
21:30 PerlJam (no endless loop, but it did tell me I needed to run it again in February which is odd)
21:31 PerlJam looks like an off-by-one error
21:32 PerlJam (maybe)
21:36 PerlJam (as soon as Time::y2038 finishs in stalling, I can try 5.10.1 too)
21:36 masak I see we promised to fix autoviv by the Feb release (according to the Jan announcement) -- but I don't see autoviv in the ChangeLog.
21:36 masak do I just remove that wording from the Feb announcement, or should we promise it again?
21:37 masak oh! we said "in coming releases", not "in the coming release".
21:37 jnthn Yeah, we don't commit that hard :P
21:37 masak then it's fine. I'll leave it as-is.
21:37 masak jnthn: phew!
21:38 PerlJam okay ... apparently installing Time::y2038 is a rabbit hole for my perlbrew'd 5.10.1  :(
21:39 Teratogen before we know it Y2.038K will be upon us!
21:43 jnthn Gonna have to sleep...agreed to start teaching insanely early tomorrow for some reason. :/ On the upside, no teaching at all next week = lots of Perl 6 tuits :)
21:43 jnthn 'night o/
21:44 masak 'night, jnthn
21:47 NamelessTee joined #perl6
21:48 dalek rakudo/nom: f9196e3 | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.02:
21:48 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.02] added
21:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f9196e38b7
21:48 masak file here: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo​/blob/nom/docs/announce/2012.02
21:49 masak if you're reading this, it's your solemn duty to review and provide feedback.
21:51 PerlJam masak++
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: a95379d | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/release_guide.pod] updated
21:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a95379da2c
21:52 colomon +1
21:52 mykhal left #perl6
21:53 masak there's something strange and loopy about the release guide asking the release manager to update and improve the release guide... :)
21:53 PerlJam just ran tools/update-tai-utc.pl again with 5.10.1 and again, it rand fine (FYI)
21:53 glass joined #perl6
21:53 colomon cough, hofstadter, cough...  ;)
21:53 PerlJam s/rand/ran/
21:54 benabik Hopefully the output from update-tai-utc doesn't rely on rand
21:55 * masak .oO( it relies on Ayn Rand )
21:55 benabik Rand Paul?
21:58 masak "Continue adjusting things until make stresstest passes as expected. Often this means fixing a bug, fudging a test, or (temporarily?) commenting out a test file in t/spectest.data .  Use your best judgment or ask others if uncertain what to do here."
21:59 masak of those three options, the latter two are generally not acceptable in "production" software.
21:59 masak i.e. each release should ratchet forward, not fudge tests or comment out test files.
22:00 PerlJam sure, but there are extraordinary circumstances sometimes
22:04 fsergot joined #perl6
22:05 colomon especially because the tests change independently of the compiler
22:12 masak oh, sure.
22:12 masak I'm just talking about a level of stability that we don't explicitly provide yet.
22:13 masak in a sense it doesn't matter if it was the implementation or the spec that slipped from under the end user.
22:13 masak now, could someone please explain to me why Z_4 isn't isomorphic to Z_2 x Z_2? I've never quite understood this.
22:16 * colomon feels like he should have an answer, but barely understands the question.  badly out of practice in abstract algebra...
22:21 masak Z_2 is a group with the elements (0, 1). Z_4 has (0, 1, 2, 3). both have addition-modulo-N as their operator.
22:23 katernya hi
22:25 masak katernya! \o/
22:25 masak oh. I think I see it now.
22:27 masak maybe the easiest answer to the question "why" is that, in Z_4, 1 + 1 == 2, but in Z_2 x Z_2, (0, 1) + (0, 1) == 0.
22:27 colomon oh, groups.
22:27 masak yeah. I'm bored; I'm running 'make stresstest' :)
22:29 colomon hmmm... Z_2 x Z_2 specifically defines addition as being piecewise addition?
22:30 * colomon is thinking that if you have full freedom to define the operators on (0, 1) x (0, 1) you can certainly make it isomorphic to Z_4
22:31 masak :)
22:31 tadzik joined #perl6
22:31 masak I think the rules of the x say that the components should stay independant.
22:32 colomon then I think your explanation is exactly right
22:33 masak \o/
22:33 colomon but it's worth remembering that I last studied this stuff back before sorear++ was born.  ;)
22:33 masak now, explain to me why Z_6 *is* isomorphic to Z_3 x Z_2... :/
22:34 [Coke] colomon: the FNG at work was in high school in 2007.
22:35 masak oh, there's an explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I​somorphism#Practical_examples
22:36 colomon I was just going to suggest you write a Perl 6 script to print out the addition table for Z_3 x Z_2....
22:36 masak oh, and in Z_m x Z_n, m and n need to be coprime for such an isomorphism to hold with Z_mn.
22:37 masak All tests successful.
22:37 masak \o/
22:37 PerlJam masak: so, 2 isn't coprime with itself?
22:37 dalek rakudo/nom: 5808482 | masak++ | VERSION:
22:37 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
22:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5808482c42
22:37 masak PerlJam: apparently not ;)
22:38 masak PerlJam: maybe because it has some factor in common with itself...
22:38 colomon masak: that doesn't exactly strike me as an explanation; at least, if it is explaining why it works, it's too subtle for me.
22:39 masak colomon: I have a vague hint of a proof in mind.
22:39 * PerlJam was last schooled in such things almost exactly 20 years ago.
22:39 masak colomon: coprimeness are like two clocks but not with 12 hours but with m and n hours respectively. if they are coprime, they don't start repeating until after mn hours.
22:40 benabik joined #perl6
22:40 colomon ooooo, nice explanation indeed
22:40 masak colomon: and that's, in a sense, the "recipe" for a group.
22:40 * au wonders if one can simply encode x in Z_mn as ((x mod m), (x mod n)) in (Z_m, Z_n).
22:41 masak au: feels that way.
22:41 masak that's the "deconstruction" of the Z_mn group :)
22:41 au ah ok :)
22:42 masak hm, I didn't mean that it's officially called that. or even that it's correct. :)
22:42 masak but it feels like that's what it does :)
22:43 masak it feels a bit like a deconstruction the same way using a Haskell constructor as a getter feels like a deconstruction.
22:46 au the usual nomenclature for the latter is, I believe, "destructuring bind", but "deconstruction" has a nice ring to it :)
22:46 * au >>= sleep
22:48 masak ah, "destructuring bind" sounds like a reasonable name for it.
22:52 masak p6c announcement sent.
22:53 colomon \o/
22:53 colomon masak++
22:53 masak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakudo_Perl_6 updated.
22:54 masak standing down releng mode.
22:54 tadzik masak++
22:54 masak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niecza doesn't have a Wikipedia article. this is a minor outrage.
22:59 * masak suddenly realizes that the explanation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I​somorphism#Practical_examples and his two-clocks metaphor and au's modulo construction all say exactly the same thing
22:59 masak it's like the explanations are... isomorphic.
23:13 masak my work here is done.
23:13 masak 'night, #perl6
23:13 skids joined #perl6
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23:35 whiteknight joined #perl6
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