Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-03-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 * jnthn is safely home from GPW :)
00:04 phenny jnthn: 07 Mar 21:17Z <tadzik> ask jnthn how hard would it be to make S14-roles/attributes.t run on rakudo?
00:05 jnthn phenny: tell tadzik I think that test may be out of date...will try and take a look in the next couple of days
00:05 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when tadzik is around.
00:06 jnthn phenny: tell colomon on Win64, Parrot needs --parrot-option=--intval="long long"
00:06 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when colomon is around.
00:07 colomon jnthn: yes, working on getting a build right now
00:07 phenny colomon: 00:06Z <jnthn> tell colomon on Win64, Parrot needs --parrot-option=--intval="long long"
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00:09 sorear good * #perl6
00:10 sorear pmurias: I am unqualified to answer that question.
00:16 whiteknight joined #perl6
00:16 colomon o/
01:02 att joined #perl6
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01:12 cbk1090 Hello #perl6
01:27 sporous joined #perl6
01:27 colomon o/
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01:38 {}o_0{} hi!  I'm a snow crab!
01:58 dalek nqp/new_make: 23eaebb | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
01:58 dalek nqp/new_make: Change PMC building rules to enable parallel build.
01:58 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/23eaebb310
02:02 alc joined #perl6
02:08 dalek nqp/new_make: ece5fbf | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
02:08 dalek nqp/new_make: Add dependencies for PMC building.
02:08 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ece5fbff17
02:11 [Coke] pugs: 3.Int.say
02:11 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&Int"␤    at /tmp/sgBWnhp8va line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
02:20 dalek nqp/new_make: 03ac24e | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
02:20 dalek nqp/new_make: Finish PMC building rules.
02:20 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/03ac24e265
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02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: e06a935 | coke++ | Pugs/src/Pugs/Prim.hs:
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: Add .Bool coercion
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs:
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: Fixes #8
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/e06a9358c4
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: 0d7fe82 | coke++ | .gitignore:
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: ignore some generated files
02:59 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/0d7fe82457
03:01 dalek roast: 7857696 | coke++ | S (11 files):
03:01 dalek roast: pugs unfudge
03:01 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7857696f1b
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03:11 dalek nqp/new_make: 40bae77 | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
03:11 dalek nqp/new_make: Rework bigin ops building
03:11 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/40bae77e33
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03:23 dalek nqp/new_make: ae037b7 | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
03:23 dalek nqp/new_make: Bring all PMC deps into one place
03:23 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ae037b7cbf
03:37 dalek nqp/new_make: 7261b1c | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
03:37 dalek nqp/new_make: Don't use bare '.o' for file extension.
03:37 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7261b1c19d
03:37 dalek nqp/new_make: 7116b98 | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
03:37 dalek nqp/new_make: Use variable instead of hardcoded path
03:37 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7116b98333
03:39 dalek nqp/new_make: 67e4e13 | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
03:39 dalek nqp/new_make: Fix previous commit
03:39 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/67e4e13d52
03:47 dalek Pugs.hs: 56c053f | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
03:47 dalek Pugs.hs: run more tests.
03:47 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/56c053f22a
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03:50 dalek nqp/new_make: 7cee7ce | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
03:50 dalek nqp/new_make: And again...
03:50 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7cee7cef60
03:56 [Coke] perl6: say Q{hello};
03:56 p6eval rakudo 182b2f, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«hello␤»
03:56 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Q"␤    at /tmp/Ahg7zmJctu line 1, column 5-13␤»
04:05 [Coke] n: say 18*24
04:05 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«432␤»
04:06 sorear o/ [Coke]
04:08 colomon \o
04:12 [Coke] perl6: say 35.unpolar(0.8)
04:12 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«24.384734827150787+25.107463181483297i␤»
04:12 p6eval ..rakudo 182b2f: OUTPUT«24.3847348271508+25.1074631814833i␤»
04:12 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&unpolar"␤    at /tmp/3SDyM2vmz_ line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
04:12 [Coke] sorear, colomon: o/
04:15 colomon bedtime here, actually
04:20 dalek roast: 062d17a | coke++ | S32-num/complex.t:
04:20 dalek roast: (slightly complex) pugs fudge
04:20 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/062d17a42b
04:21 [Coke] perl6: say 1/2R
04:21 p6eval rakudo 182b2f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/RY6JLoENA1:1␤»
04:21 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "R"␤    expecting "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix, operator, ":" or ","␤    at /tmp/wqyznLHWuC line 1, column 8␤»
04:21 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Whitespace is required between alphanumeric tokens at /tmp/W2tQJJgtxL line 1:�------> [32msay 1/2[33m�[31mR[0m��Two terms in a row at /tmp/W2tQJJgtxL line 1:�------> [32msay 1/2[33m�[31mR[0m��Parse failed��»…
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04:31 timotimo oh, cute, with something like postfix:<kg>(Numeric $foo) you could come up with units and stuff. that's neat
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04:32 timotimo perl6: sub postfix:<kg>(Numeric $val) { say "$val kilograms"; }; 9001kg;
04:32 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 182b2f, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«9001 kilograms␤»
04:32 dalek nqp/new_make: e7ff7f5 | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
04:32 dalek nqp/new_make: DRY: use autovariable.
04:32 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e7ff7f5fbe
04:33 alc joined #perl6
04:34 sorear timotimo: I think it exists for CORE::postfix:<i>
04:34 sorear as in 3 + 4i
04:38 bacek_at_work ~~
04:38 bacek_at_work phenny, tell moritz Can you try nqp new_make branch? If you have something like Win32 it will be very helpful
04:38 phenny bacek_at_work: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
04:38 bacek_at_work phenny, tell jnthn Can you try nqp new_make branch? If you have something like Win32 it will be very helpful
04:38 phenny bacek_at_work: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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04:55 dalek nqp/new_make: 1971fe7 | bacek++ | src/6model/Defines.mak:
04:55 dalek nqp/new_make: Add more dependencies to enable parallel build.
04:55 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1971fe7aa6
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07:15 tadzik good morning
07:15 phenny tadzik: 00:05Z <jnthn> tell tadzik I think that test may be out of date...will try and take a look in the next couple of days
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07:17 moritz \o
07:17 phenny moritz: 04:38Z <bacek_at_work> tell moritz Can you try nqp new_make branch? If you have something like Win32 it will be very helpful
07:19 dalek nqp: 2195abb | moritz++ | / (13 files):
07:19 dalek nqp: Merge remote branch 'origin/new_getprop'
07:19 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2195abb5ec
07:26 sorear o/ tadzik , moritz
07:27 nebuchadnezzar morning
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07:30 moritz phenny: tell jnthn the nqp branch new_make works fine for me on linux. If it also works for you, please merge it
07:30 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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08:07 bacek moritz, there is some problem with parallel build of dyncall in nqp...
08:07 bacek I couldn't make it to behave properly.
08:14 moritz that's knowin-ish
08:14 moritz *known-ish
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09:21 masak morning, #perl6
09:22 masak GPW++
09:22 masak moritz++ # GPW
09:22 eiro hi all
09:23 moritz masak: did the journey home work out well?
09:23 eiro http://journeesperl.fr/fpw2012/newtalk < masak, tadzik :)
09:24 eiro tadzik, can you talk about bailador ?
09:24 eiro (if you concider joining the event)
09:25 moritz hm, strasbourg is about 5..6 hours by train
09:26 masak moritz: yes, hitchlessly.
09:27 am0c joined #perl6
09:27 moritz nom: class A { has package B { }}
09:27 p6eval rakudo 182b2f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use has scope with package at line 1, near "{ }}"␤»
09:31 tadzik eiro: I will consider that, although I might have some exams at the very end of June. As soon as I get to know that I don't have any I'd gladly join you on the workshop
09:32 eiro moritz, masak -> FKB
09:32 moritz FKB?
09:32 eiro moritz, the lowcost airport of baden baden
09:32 eiro tadzik, cool
09:32 moritz eiro: if I come, it'll be by train, not flight
09:33 eiro ok ... 5 hours of train... you are a warrior
09:33 tadzik althogh there's always a chance that I either do my exams on the first attempt and/or procrastinate some of them for September :)
09:33 eiro tadzik, don't! exams come first!
09:33 moritz because going to the airport, checking in, the flight, waiting for the baggage etc. and all the time safety margins make the flight not much faster
09:33 tadzik heh, well
09:34 moritz and for me trains are much less stress than flights
09:34 eiro moritz, ok then
09:34 DrEeevil moritz: bern-berlin, train is at least as fast and more comfy
09:35 eiro btw: please make some sound about fpw in germany: we're closer to you than ever :)
09:35 eiro also i have to contact rafl :)
09:35 moritz eiro: if you had said that one day earlier, I could have announced that in the closing talk of the GPW
09:36 eiro moritz, i was at GPW '12
09:36 eiro s/12/11
09:36 eiro gpw12 still happenned ?
09:36 tadzik yeah, ended yesterday :)
09:37 moritz from Monday to yesterday
09:37 eiro DAMNED!
09:37 moritz eiro: around March is the usual time for it; last year it was unusually late
09:38 eiro ok
09:50 dalek nqp/new_make: 96c5cef | bacek++ | / (2 files):
09:50 dalek nqp/new_make: Hackish workaround to build dyncall in single job to enable build of rest of nqp in parallel
09:50 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/96c5cefa2f
09:50 bacek moritz, ^^^ :)
09:51 moritz bacek: does that work on non-GNU makes?
09:54 jnthn mornin'
09:54 phenny jnthn: 04:38Z <bacek_at_work> tell jnthn Can you try nqp new_make branch? If you have something like Win32 it will be very helpful
09:54 phenny jnthn: 07:30Z <moritz> tell jnthn the nqp branch new_make works fine for me on linux. If it also works for you, please merge it
09:56 jnthn Microsoft (R) Program Maintenance Utility Version 10.00.30319.01
09:56 jnthn Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.
09:56 jnthn makefile(474) : fatal error U1001: syntax error : illegal character '^' in macro
09:56 eiro moritz, was rene there ?
09:56 jnthn No, it doesn't work.
09:56 bacek jnthn, sigh...
09:56 moritz eiro: yes
09:56 eiro renee beck
09:57 moritz baecker iirc
09:57 jnthn bacek: I...assume the only thing you're trying to make parallel is the C bits?
09:57 eiro and he said nothing ? he was aware of FPW!
09:57 jnthn bacek: Well, and the stage 0 PIR can be too I guess
09:57 moritz eiro: he said lots of things :-)
09:57 dalek nqp/new_make: cdbb25d | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
09:57 dalek nqp/new_make: Revert "DRY: use autovariable."
09:57 dalek nqp/new_make:
09:57 dalek nqp/new_make: It doesn't work with nmake.
09:57 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cdbb25d93c
09:57 tadzik jnthn: the spec says "the private attr of a role is private to a class, not to a role"
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09:57 jnthn Stage 1 and stage 2 offer just about no chance of parallelism
09:57 moritz like, gave a 40 minutes talk, and telling people about YAPC::EU, and about the next GPW and so on :-)
09:57 moritz he might have simply forgotten about it
09:58 bacek jnthn, I'm trying to "streamline" build process to simplify migration of parrot to 6model :)
09:58 bacek jnthn, can you try again?
09:58 jnthn bacek: Just did. Now:
09:58 jnthn LINK : fatal error LNK1181: cannot open input file 'src\pmc\nqp_group.obj'
09:58 tadzik I was trying to refactor Set stuff
09:59 jnthn Also
09:59 eiro https://twitter.com/#!/marcchantreux/status/174394649190993920 < he knew ! :)
09:59 bacek jnthn, strange...
09:59 jnthn cl : Command line warning D9035 : option 'o' has been deprecated and will be rem
09:59 jnthn oved in a future release
09:59 bacek jnthn, for which target?
10:00 bacek jnthn, can you create gist with make log by any chance?
10:01 eiro moritz, sure. and i think it's still time to spread information in germany
10:01 moritz sure
10:02 jnthn bacek: https://gist.github.com/2000073
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10:03 jnthn eiro: I've reserved space in my schedule for FPW, and hope to be able to make it.
10:03 eiro jnthn, thanks!
10:05 eiro please everyone fill the newtalk page http://journeesperl.fr/fpw2012/newtalk soon even if you're not sure to be able
10:05 eiro (to come)
10:06 eiro also: we found a very cheap but cosy accomodation (35,70€ B&B)
10:06 dalek nqp/new_make: cd61e1d | bacek++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
10:06 dalek nqp/new_make: Use proper macro instead of '-o'. jnthn++
10:06 dalek nqp/new_make: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cd61e1d654
10:06 cognominal eiro \o/
10:07 bacek jnthn, oookey. Warning should gone. I don't quite understand why nqp_group.obj is missing. It was definitely compiled according to log.
10:08 jnthn https://gist.github.com/2000101
10:08 jnthn That one looks odd.
10:09 eiro cognominal, \o/
10:09 eiro cognominal, we also have to add cat in this loop
10:10 cognominal cat? nyan cat?
10:10 bacek jnthn, looks like a bug in opsc. I have to talk to opsc owner. Wait... It's me.
10:10 Chillance joined #perl6
10:10 jnthn bacek: Talking to yourself considered normal. :)
10:10 bacek jnthn, http://www.fmylife.com/miscellaneous/19236548 :)
10:11 cognominal jnthn, with all the stuff that is going in rakudo, you should write a teaser for Perl 6 that eiro could add to the fpw site.
10:12 cognominal … pointing to your next blog entry  :)
10:12 moritz bacek: you might enjoy https://github.com/masak/gpw-talks/blob/master/autopuns.pdf?raw=true
10:13 moritz that's the slides of a lightning talk masak++ gave on Tuesday
10:16 eiro cognominal, cat -> Christian (another perl6 fan)
10:16 timotimo the zoom at the end was amazing
10:17 bacek jnthn, can you try it with bleeding edge parrot? :)
10:18 masak timotimo: thanks :)
10:19 jnthn bacek: Yeah, but I gotta do $dayjob stuff now, having ignored it for the last three days to do German Perl Workshop. Will give it a go later today.
10:19 bacek moritz++ masak++ nice one!
10:19 bacek jnthn, ok, thanks
10:19 masak timotimo: I feel I'm only discovering what can be done with this format. I definitely want to play around more with it.
10:20 moritz masak: having seen you writing the slides, I think you should optimize the source format a bit for less copy and paste
10:25 masak I see what you mean.
10:26 masak that part doesn't bother me so much. the thought crossed my mind to be able to lay out the scene frames in Inkscape, however. something like export-to-svg, move boxes in Inkscape, import-back-to-slides.
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10:27 masak positioning is probably best done in Inkscape.
10:27 cognominal jnthn, are you gpw slides posted somewhere?
10:27 moritz cognominal: it's in the backlog somewhere in the last three days. search for .pdf :-)
10:27 cognominal ok
10:28 cognominal thx, moritz
10:28 masak cognominal: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-03-06#i_5251854
10:29 masak moritz: my idea is to prototype Niobium (the diagramming tool) inside of Gryd (the presentation tool).
10:29 cognominal thx masak
10:30 cognominal masak: have you watched kineticjs? it is almost there. That's  html5 canvases with scene memorization. It lacks css selectors to compete with SVG.
10:31 cognominal it seemas that html5 canvases support is better than SVG support theses days.
10:31 cognominal http://kineticjs.com/
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10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: 2407a5b | moritz++ | src/ (4 files):
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge branch 'world-API' into nom
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2407a5b9b0
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: e09d7f8 | moritz++ | src/ (3 files):
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: generalize X::Sub::Scope to X::Declaration::Scope
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom:
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: and throw it in one more place.
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: Also throw another instance of X::Signature::Placeholder
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e09d7f870a
10:41 moritz nom: role A[$x] { }; class B does A[1 + 2] { }
10:41 p6eval rakudo 182b2f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use '1 + 2' as an argument to a parametric role as its value is not known at compile time at line 1, near " { }"␤»
10:42 moritz LTA
10:45 jnthn Well, bs was a blocker for the constant folder before now.
10:45 moritz I know
10:45 moritz should it treat the argument the same way as the RHS of a constant declaration?
10:46 jnthn Very unlikely.
10:46 jnthn That just puts the RHS as a BEGIN time thing
10:46 jnthn oh
10:46 jnthn hm
10:46 jnthn Maybe that *would* work out... ;)
10:46 moritz which is exactly what you do when you want a value at compile time :-)
10:47 * moritz goes through panics in Perl6::World
10:47 jnthn We probably need to try and map out "how hard to try" in a bunch of cases.
10:47 key_ left #perl6
10:48 jnthn Like, run the thing as BEGIN, run the constant folder, etc.
10:48 moritz nom: my $x = 3; constant a = $x ** 2; say a
10:48 p6eval rakudo 182b2f: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $x of type Any in numeric context␤0␤»
10:50 jnthn That assignment doesn't take place until runtime.
10:50 moritz I know
10:51 jnthn Nice that we get the warning. :)
10:51 moritz I was just pondering if such things should generally be forbidden, or trigger a warning at compile time, or simply use the static pad and be fine with it
10:51 jnthn It did 2 and 3 :)
10:52 jnthn Used the static pad, which held an uninitialized value, and we got a warning. :)
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12:32 masak is feather under heavy load? things are lagging a bit.
12:34 moritz executing 'uptime' will tell you
12:35 masak 13:34:42 up 139 days,  6:49,  5 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.06, 0.05
12:35 masak those load average numbers never meant much to me.
12:35 moritz it means there's nearly now CPU load on feather
12:35 masak right.
12:36 moritz and suggests that the lag comes from the network instead
12:36 moritz (though other explanations are possible too)
12:36 masak ok.
12:36 masak ah, the numbers are for the past 1, 5, and 15 minutes, respectively.
12:37 arnsholt The rule of thumb with load averages is that it shouldn't exceed the number of CPUs in the machine
12:37 moritz yes, the load average is basically the number of CPUs you'd need to perfectly do all the calculations that are running (or have been running)
12:37 arnsholt And the three numbers are over different time spans. First is "right now", second is "a little while" and last "a long while"
12:38 moritz 1, 5 and 15 minutes iirc
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12:38 arnsholt Yeah, sounds about right
12:39 moritz man uptime agrees with me :-)
12:40 arnsholt Even better =)
12:41 masak <masak> ah, the numbers are for the past 1, 5, and 15 minutes, respectively.
12:41 masak you guys don't read what I'm writing :P
12:44 moritz did anybody say something while I was away?
12:44 tokuhirom joined #perl6
12:45 masak :P
12:46 Juerd joined #perl6
12:46 masak "masak's contributions to #perl6 were much less commented on after he became /ignore'd by the majority of core devs..."
12:49 masak the most damning comment and the clearest example of bynari-of-le-backlog's point -- that it's hard for any product/organization to go against established perceptions -- is a quote I got relayed to me from a former colleague.
12:49 awwaiid "and the monk-like solitude that ensued led him to deeper insights then could have been previously imagined"
12:50 masak something like "They added native types, proper object-orientation, a meta-object protocol, grammars, and metaops... onto *Perl*."
12:50 masak clearly it was meant as a mean joke.
12:51 masak as if the punchline might equally well have been "... onto *INTERCAL*."
12:52 masak so that's part of the perception we have against us.
12:53 masak I remember two years ago at the social on OSDC.fr, when a Ruby-or-whatever programmer came up to me and I introduced myself as a Perl 6 developer.
12:53 masak he spent the next 15 minutes explaining to me that Perl doesn't exist anymore.
12:54 awwaiid I've been lately thinking that bynari has a point in a way -- I think it's all about the "middle class" of programmers
12:54 masak somehow the language barrier, or maybe his zeal, prevented me from interrupting/contradicting him.
12:54 awwaiid haha
12:54 JimmyZ joined #perl6
12:55 geekosaur not sure ruby counts there; ruby devs would like to believe they are the inheritors of Perl and have been ever since the English-speaking world discovered Ruby.
12:55 geekosaur much the same way they think Rails is still relevant
12:56 masak Ruby *is* a descendant of Perl.
12:56 masak it's interesting when you go look at all the similar non-alphabetic variables and run options.
12:56 geekosaur oh, certainly
12:56 geekosaur I'm not denying that at all.
12:57 jlaire it's a descendant, but becomes an inheritor only when Perl dies
12:57 masak the Perl roots are all over Ruby, even if Modern Ruby doesn't emphasize it.
12:57 geekosaur I;'m saying that your anecdote says more about the Ruby community than the Perl one
12:57 sisar joined #perl6
12:57 masak aye.
12:57 lumi__ PLT Scheme recently renamed to Racket, I guess to escape the scheme name
12:57 masak I can't swear he was a Ruby guy.
12:57 geekosaur they often act like they're desperate to be taken seriously
12:58 awwaiid what a racket! hehehehe
12:58 * JimmyZ always heard somebody said language is not the  problem. :)
12:58 masak geekosaur: or maybe that's just how they *seem* from the point of view of us balanced Perl programmers :)
12:58 geekosaur (seriously?  they want to be taken seriously, make it possible to build a serious system that won;t be broken the next time someone installs a random gem)
12:59 geekosaur ,uch less a random *point release* of ruby...)
12:59 masak JimmyZ: all programming languages are opinionated. all runtimes need to have a memory model, which in the end influences what the language can and can't do. Turing equivalence still applies, but some languages make it easier to do some things.
12:59 awwaiid I'll tell you what -- here in DC the ruby group get's 50 meeting members a month, the python gets 30, and perl gets 10. Inversed to their real-world usage? Indicative of future trends? Indicitive of social-networking skillz?
13:00 geekosaur indicative of marketing skills, to a large extent
13:02 geekosaur but, ruby in particular seems to be in that curious spot where they have the marketing thing working for them, but on the technical side tey're doing the "everyone else is wrong and we can ignore whatthey've come up with and do it right!" and then spent the next year or so rediscovering _The Mythical Man-Month_ etc.
13:02 * awwaiid want's to start DC-Dynamic-United
13:03 * awwaiid is also too lazy to _actually0 start DDU
13:03 awwaiid er, DC-DU
13:04 geekosaur (python mostly avoided that stage, by dint of GvR's steering, as did Perl by Larry's.  I still have scars from when Linux went through it)
13:05 mtk joined #perl6
13:05 awwaiid anyway. perl is fun!
13:07 awwaiid I been doing generator-based sound stuff in perl5 -- setting up functions that are generators, spitting out new digital samples on every call. Looks like maybe I could do it now in p6
13:08 awwaiid perl6: sub f_gen { my $x = 0; -> { $x++ } } my $f = f_gen(); $f.().say ; $f.().say ; $f.().say
13:08 p6eval rakudo e09d7f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/J849RrwMys:1␤»
13:08 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/d5CG7kTC9_ line 1:�------> [32msub f_gen { my $x = 0; -> { $x++ } }[33m�[31m my $f = f_gen(); $f.().say ; $f.().say [0m��Parse failed��»…
13:08 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤»
13:08 masak awwaiid: semicolon after }
13:08 awwaiid doh
13:08 awwaiid perl6: sub f_gen { my $x = 0; -> { $x++ } }; my $f = f_gen(); $f.().say ; $f.().say ; $f.().say
13:08 p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo e09d7f, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤»
13:09 masak also, '$f.()' better written '$f()' if you ask me.
13:09 awwaiid oh, didn't know I could. also why do I need a ; after my sub?
13:09 masak the '.' is a p5istic translation of '->'
13:09 moritz awwaiid: because tehre's no \n after the closing curly
13:10 awwaiid what other interpretation could it have? I must've missed this one
13:10 masak awwaiid: the rule is that ';' or "}\n" must go between statements.
13:10 masak well. to a first approximation.
13:11 awwaiid that for easy-consistent parsing?
13:13 awwaiid or is there some other ambiguity that it solves that I'm not seeing?
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13:14 grondilu Is anybody working on a perl6 grammar for mediawiki?  I'd be so happy to have that, but it's kind of tough for me to write it.
13:17 masak awwaiid: basically, it's very important for the parser to be able to recognize and flag up two terms in a row.
13:17 masak grondilu: I did, many years ago, for November the wiki engine. I haven't heard about anyone doing it since then.
13:18 alvis joined #perl6
13:18 moritz awwaiid: how much perl 5 do you write?
13:19 grondilu masak: where is it?  I'd like to have a look.
13:19 moritz in perl 5 there's this annoying thing that if you write  'somecallback sub { .... }'
13:20 moritz then the next line triggers a syntax error
13:20 moritz because you didn't write a ; after the }
13:20 masak grondilu: seems to be at https://github.com/viklund/november/blob/master/lib/Text/Markup/Wiki/MediaWiki.pm
13:20 moritz (which is especially annoying if the sub is several lines long, or even more than a vertical screen length)
13:22 grondilu masak: great.  Thanks
13:22 moritz has anybody ported november to nom?
13:23 awwaiid masak, right, but the newline doesn't end it either. I guess I think of a named sub an an anon sub as two different things -- the named sub is a block construct that needs no ; after it. But I just tried this with if blocks in p6 and it works the same, so at least it's consistent :)
13:25 masak moritz: nope.
13:25 [Coke] (user groups attendences: perl here gets 0. cold fusion gets dozens.)
13:26 kaleem joined #perl6
13:27 masak r: (sub { $^f("OH HAI") })(sub { say $^m })
13:27 p6eval rakudo e09d7f: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
13:32 sisar sorear: warnings seen when make-ing Niecza: https://gist.github.com/2000992 , line 4, 18
13:33 masak sisar: that's fairly normal, I think. par for the course.
13:33 [Coke] I think he eliminates them as possible, but the fact that we're bootstrapped means those are going to show up occasionally.
13:34 sisar masak: ok
13:34 sisar moritz: did you figure out my yesterday's gist : https://gist.github.com/1986576
13:34 [Coke] pugs: say 3.Int
13:34 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&Int"␤    at /tmp/xnrgsNUN0u line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
13:34 sisar me thinks that i might have some insight...
13:35 moritz sisar: no
13:36 awwaiid masak, anyway -- I don't mind offhand about the required [\n;], I was just surprised. For some reason (;|\n) strikes me as the path to the dark side... but I'm not afraid of no dark side
13:36 sisar if you copy-paste any multiline code on the rakudo REPL, then regardless of your next sentence, rakudo responds with 'Confused'
13:36 moritz oh
13:37 sisar moritz: are you able to reproduce it ?
13:38 [Coke] moritz: quiet ping on the pugs-on-evalbot-update question.
13:38 moritz sisar: dunno, currently I don't have a rakudo runninig $here
13:38 moritz [Coke]: pong
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13:39 moritz [Coke]: iirc pugs isn't currently updated on p6eval at all
13:39 moritz and from where I am right now, I don't have access to its host :/
13:39 sisar moritz: oh, ok.
13:40 sisar [Coke] can you try to reproduce the problem ?
13:40 sisar just copy-paste any multiline code, let rakudo complain, then give anyother valid statement
13:41 sisar s/statement/ one line code
13:42 [Coke] sisar: no: https://gist.github.com/2001030
13:42 [Coke] do you have a cut and paste that shows the problem?
13:42 masak JimmyZ: perhaps more importantly, programming languages are tools for doing interesting things. any discussion on which tool is better than the other tools and why is time spent not doing interesting things. :)
13:44 sisar [Coke] one sec...
13:44 PerlJam good * #perl6
13:45 sisar [Coke]: here: https://gist.github.com/2001038. Copying lines 1 to 7 should trigger it...
13:46 masak PerlJam! \o/
13:47 moritz \*/
13:47 * masak .oO( moritz has whatever head? )
13:47 masak or maybe it's a moritz Star.
13:48 kaleem joined #perl6
13:48 moritz my head just sees stars everywhere
13:48 sisar masak: on http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/june-22-format-strings "print the value using three characters", i think 'three' => 'five'
13:51 PerlJam sisar: indeed
13:52 timotimo masak: is there no option to center text?
13:53 masak sisar: good catch. thanks.
13:53 moritz timotimo: that's what Form.pm is for
13:53 timotimo oke
13:53 masak timotimo: in sprintf? no.
13:53 moritz though I have no idea what state it's in
13:53 moritz mathw might now
13:53 masak I hope the Form.pm we end up with knows how to handle double-width chars.
13:54 masak Form.pm would be a very adequate GSoC project, methinks.
13:54 jnthn Aye
13:55 moritz nom: role B { ... }
13:55 p6eval rakudo e09d7f:  ( no output )
13:55 moritz why doesn't that complain that B is declared but not stubbed?
13:55 moritz erm, other way round :-)
13:57 jnthn Roles are special cased...it's some trickiness with "which parametric variant did we stub"...
13:57 moritz oh.
13:57 jnthn It needs a better solution.
13:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 4235dfe | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
13:58 dalek rakudo/nom: X::Package::Stubbed
13:58 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:58 dalek rakudo/nom: also automagically promote RPA to Parcel in World.throw
13:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4235dfe0f7
13:59 dalek roast: 46f9b17 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
13:59 dalek roast: track exception name change, and add another test
13:59 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/46f9b17dad
13:59 dalek roast: ddc21bf | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
13:59 dalek roast: test X::Package::Stubbed
13:59 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ddc21bfd2d
13:59 masak how to compare two strings in a case-insensitive way in Perl 6?
14:00 moritz you mean besides $a.lc eq $b.lc?
14:00 masak yeah. I read brian d foy's blog post, and learned from it that .lc isn't enuf.
14:01 masak http://www.effectiveperlprogramming.com/blog/1507
14:01 masak I guess what I'm asking is, does Perl 6 have .fc or something equivalent?
14:02 masak if not, this seems to be something that we'd want to steal from 5.16.
14:02 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
14:03 geekosaur I thought this had come up before and something got spec-ed
14:04 geekosaur (not sure it ever got implemented but I know it was discussed)
14:04 kranius joined #perl6
14:05 kranius hello #perl6
14:06 masak kranius: greetings, kranius.
14:06 awwaiid sisar, it's not just copy-paste -- just typing "for 2..100 {<enter>" triggers that
14:06 masak kranius: welcome back.
14:09 tadzik joined #perl6
14:11 kranius would jumping straight to perl6 be good for a perl newcomer ?
14:11 PerlJam kranius: probably not.
14:12 PerlJam kranius: (but that's just my opinion)
14:12 kranius why so ?
14:12 JimmyZ_ joined #perl6
14:14 masak I'm less hesitant than PerlJam. Perl 6 might work fine as a "first Perl".
14:14 PerlJam kranius: because there are two Perls now.  Perl 5 and Perl 6 and they are different.   Perl 5 has a long history and lots of tools and lots of edifice (CPAN, cpan testers, etc.) that Just Works for the programmer.  Perl 6 doesn't quite have the same level of maturity with respect to its corresponding tools.
14:15 masak but there's... right, tools and documentation and maturity in general.
14:15 timotimo i'ven't done perl5 before and i'm learning perl6 (very) slowly
14:15 masak if you choose to go with Perl 6, be prepared for more of a "work in progress" experience than with Perl 5.
14:15 timotimo i think it's very nice if you don't expect to become productive immediately
14:15 masak timotimo++
14:16 kranius yes I am aware of that. But I don't really need production readyness
14:16 PerlJam kranius: then learn Perl 6 by all means
14:16 PerlJam !
14:16 kranius nor a big ecosystem
14:17 kranius I have some experience with perl 5, but it's mainly maintaining some already existing code
14:17 timotimo you can probably get many libraries using the CLR interface of niecza if you want to do gui or whatever
14:18 kranius nothing really fancy
14:19 bynari joined #perl6
14:20 PerlJam When people talk about Perl "in the wild", I bet their mental model is a Perl 5 universe.  I wonder how we can effectively put the "Perl 6 vision of Perl" into people's heads?
14:20 timotimo .u 哈
14:20 phenny U+54C8 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-54C8 (哈)
14:20 PerlJam Seems like the best way is lots of code, documentation, tutorials, articles, real-world examples, etc.
14:22 kranius yes code examples is good to spread the word
14:23 masak PerlJam: tadzik had an interesting talk on GPW about how the Perl 6 module ecosystem toolchain has followed an "evolution" path so far, despite numerous attempts to apply "intelligent design" to it.
14:23 masak at least that's my take on what he said. ;)
14:23 masak tadzik++
14:24 PerlJam cool
14:24 mikemol joined #perl6
14:25 PerlJam I feel like Perl 6 is on the cusp of something and it's getting close to the  time when we need to "turn up the heat" to make things bounce around a little more  :)
14:25 masak aye.
14:25 dudulz joined #perl6
14:25 kranius most people I know are scared by Perl, they have the "perl golf" in mind, unreadable snippets with cryptic syntax :/
14:25 timotimo hehe, yes
14:26 masak there will always be people who think like that.
14:26 PerlJam kranius: "fear of Perl 5" could be replaced by "wonder of Perl 6"  :)
14:26 timotimo a friend of mine does a lot of perl5 stuff and always brags about how good cpan is and about the usually very high quality of documentation and tests
14:26 masak there will always be people who go "LOL PARENTHESES" when you mention Lisp, too.
14:26 kranius true
14:26 * PerlJam just thinks of fingernail clippings
14:27 PerlJam TimToady++ (for the memorable quote)
14:27 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
14:27 masak and both groups, while crude, are right in some sense.
14:27 masak Lisp code does contain parentheses.
14:28 PerlJam masak: and a few non-parentheses too  ;)
14:28 masak Perl code does contain punctuation. and you have the rope to shoot yourself in the foot.
14:28 masak that doesn't mean you have to.
14:28 jnthn You can...shoot yourself with rope?
14:28 masak :P
14:28 PerlJam jnthn: sure, with a rope gun
14:29 masak "Perl 6 gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot." I thought this meme was well-known enough to be mundane at this point... :)
14:29 masak apparently not.
14:29 dudulz left #perl6
14:29 jnthn I guess I never bothered to think it through before :P
14:30 kranius that Parrot vm is sexy
14:30 masak it's a wonderful vision, yes.
14:31 PerlJam btw, anyone working on an April Fools Joke this year?
14:31 PerlJam The Perl community used to do such nice AFJs
14:31 skids joined #perl6
14:32 masak PerlJam: no, but it's a great idea.
14:33 frettled «Perl 5.17 and Perl 6 to merge codebases»
14:34 masak ...upgrading the version number to Perl 11.17
14:34 PerlJam frettled: I was thinking something more like "p5p to adopt Parrot VM for Perl 5 with plans to merge with Perl 6 by 2013" or something
14:34 PacoAir joined #perl6
14:34 PerlJam (the nuance of p5p using Parrot is important :)
14:34 masak I would assume that that was an April 1st joke even if it arrived in September.
14:35 frettled hee-hee
14:35 frettled PerlJam's suggestion is nice.
14:35 frettled It would be even better if the current uhm er buildmaster or whattheycallit for Perl 5 signed onto that.
14:36 masak oh yes.
14:36 PerlJam "Larry Wall gives up on Perl and moves to the Himalayas"
14:36 masak with a credible enuf timeline up until 2013.
14:36 PerlJam masak: exactly
14:37 PerlJam with quotes from notable Perl people (in Perl 5 and Perl 6) in the announcement.
14:37 PerlJam "RJBS says ... it's about time"
14:37 awwaiid "Perl6 joins force with Mayans to end world before Christmas"
14:38 jnthn "Don't panic, we don't know which Christmas yet."
14:38 PerlJam "obra reveals that this was really his plan all along when he put forth his proposal for the future of perl 5"
14:38 PerlJam awwaiid++ I like that
14:39 PerlJam frettled: btw, the word you were looking for is "pumpking"
14:39 frettled PerlJam: thanks, I forgot
14:42 GlitchMr joined #perl6
14:43 JimmyZ masak: I agree with you, though that's always contentious
14:44 PerlJam The trick is getting enough of the right people involved and to make it sound almost plausible such that people actually question the reality of it.
14:44 frettled Also, you need a decoy, an _obvious_ April 1st joke.
14:45 frettled I think the Mayan joke  suggested by awwaiid works.
14:45 masak :D
14:45 JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:46 frettled As a bonus, mentioning the P6 hackathon in Oslo in April as a hacking meet to ensure API compatibility or somesuch could be cool.
14:47 PerlJam exactly
14:47 PerlJam combine enough facts with fiction that people aren't sure if it's a joke
14:47 frettled That timing is becoming freakishly good.
14:48 * frettled really looks forward to that hackathon, BTW, it will be the first Perl meet for me in a looong time.
14:52 Trashlord joined #perl6
15:00 benabik joined #perl6
15:00 PerlJam another good AFJ would be to announce that lwall has decided to rename Perl 6 after much flak from the community.  (people would certainly believe that! :)
15:01 masak and they'd lynch us when it turns out to be a joke :P
15:03 JimmyZ rename 6 to 7 :)
15:06 benabik The Perl 6 community has gotten tired of the spec changing, so have kicked out TimToady.  Now he's working on Perl 7, which is composed entirely of non-ASCII characters.
15:06 masak "Perl 7 will be my rewrite of the community. (mumble grumble)"
15:07 benabik masak++
15:08 JimmyZ or universe
15:09 geekosaur (as usual, xkcd already covered that)
15:10 marmalade joined #perl6
15:11 flussence "Perl 6000"
15:21 cosimo quick raise of hands: who's coming to Oslo? :)
15:22 masak o/
15:22 masak so are jnthn, moritz, pmichaud, tadzik, and fsergot.
15:22 JimmyZ joined #perl6
15:23 JimmyZ firefox--, which always crashed with chatzilla
15:23 cosimo masak: cool!
15:23 cosimo it's going to be great!
15:26 masak yes. yes, it is.
15:26 masak sjn++
15:39 [Coke] sisar: still can't reproduce it: https://gist.github.com/2001553
15:40 [Coke] I seem to recover immediately after the confusion, whereas you seem to need one more line.
15:40 moritz maybe there's some platform dependent copy/paste mechanism
15:40 moritz thing is, if you paste 5 lines, rakudo should say "Confused" 5 times
15:40 [Coke] -1 from me on more april fool's day stuff.
15:41 sisar [Coke]: why does it look like that you copy-pasted each line one-by-one ?
15:41 masak maybe it's the terminal window application.
15:41 [Coke] sisar;no clue. I did not.
15:41 [Coke] but, in any case: it seems that if you hit return one more time, you're ok.
15:41 moritz so if you only get a single "Confused", maybe the line separator is weird or something
15:41 sisar fyi, i'm using GNOME terminal
15:42 [Coke] I'm ssh'd into feather using putty
15:42 sisar [Coke] you have a local rakudo  ?
15:43 sisar fwiw, awwaiid above was able to reproduce it
15:47 awwaiid moritz, sisar, actually mine said confused a bunch of times :)
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16:45 [Coke] masak++ #autopun pdf
16:45 colomon [Coke]: where is it?
16:47 TimToady https://github.com/masak/gpw-talks/raw/master/autopuns.pdfhttps://github.com/masak/gpw-talks/raw/master/autopuns.pdf
16:47 TimToady er, stupid lag
16:48 TimToady .oO(you can say that again)
16:48 colomon TimToady++
16:48 TimToady if I was going to be snide, I'd've said "in the backlog"
16:49 TimToady all I did was type masak in my browser
16:49 TimToady and look at the history
16:51 masak maybe it was a mistake to publish that PDF. now I have to find new fresh autopuns for YAPC::EU :)
16:51 masak maybe I could build an autopun factory.
16:51 masak turn the crank; autopun comes out.
16:52 TimToady you need to write an autopun macro
16:53 TimToady actually, just write an AI that wanders the intertubes finding them; I'm sure you'll get more than you can talk about
16:53 TimToady or just teach everyone how to do it, and get it to go viral, and then you don't have to talk about them anymore
16:55 masak it's surprisingly difficult to convey what's an autopun and what isn't.
16:55 masak not just because it's not 100% clearly delineated, but because the the core "trick" isn't easily put into words.
16:56 TimToady indeed, it's almost past the semantic level down in the pragmatic level
16:57 TimToady I keep having this nagging worry that you're gonna think I'm trying to make autopuns when I'm just trying to be funny...  :)
16:57 PerlJam masak: got any example autopuns that recurse at least once?
16:58 PerlJam or autopuns that pun in 2 orthogonal directions
16:58 masak TimToady: in a give conversation about autopuns, there always seems to be a general uncertainty about whether one is trying to stick to the topic, or trying to be funny. :)
16:58 masak given*
16:58 PerlJam your talk seemed to be about wordy autopuns ... any visual autopuns?
16:59 masak PerlJam: interesting notions. no, I haven't seen any examples of those.
16:59 TimToady well "All X are liars" can thought of as a recursive autopun if you're an X
16:59 masak I never liked the "All X are liars" as an example of the prototypical paradox. it's not a paradox.
16:59 awwaiid pft. YOU'RE not a paradox
16:59 masak :)
17:00 geekosaur not by itself, but it's supposed to be shorthand for the syllogism that *is* a paradox when complete
17:00 * TimToady wonders what a metadox would be
17:00 TimToady maybe a metadox is what the all cretans thing is
17:01 masak well, now, come on. even in a black-and-white world where everyone either is a liar or a truth-teller, things can be resolved by Epimenides being a liar, and not all Cretans being liars.
17:01 TimToady well, I know how Alexander would have solved it
17:01 masak i.e., there has to be at least one Cretan who is not Epimenides and who is not a liar. then Epimenides lies, he's a liar, and no paradox.
17:02 TimToady cretan
17:02 masak :P
17:03 * masak decommutes
17:03 geekosaur *snrk*
17:03 TimToady discretely
17:04 PerlJam masak: "all X are liars" is more of an idealized theoretical construct.  Yours are *real* and thus quite a bit more appealing. :-)
17:04 PerlJam "all X are liars" makes me think of spherical cows of uniform density.
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17:08 TimToady it's difficult to have a visual autopun in the concrete (ouch) sense of visual, since an autopun is defined to have a use/mention, which implies some amount of semiotic indirection
17:08 TimToady you need something visual that is a "sign" but that is not language, per se
17:09 PerlJam TimToady: difficult doesn't mean impossible.  :-)  I bet Escher has some visual autopuns
17:09 TimToady a toppled statue of Lenin pointing at the ground comes close
17:10 TimToady the hands drawing each other can be read that way
17:11 PerlJam ah, exactly
17:11 TimToady I think they'll usually come across as "frame violations" in the visual sphere
17:12 TimToady it's a pity the painting has to say "this is not a pipe" in language
17:12 PerlJam heh, that's the first thing I thought of when I mentioned "visual" autopuns :-)
17:15 TimToady I suspect Escher's impossible objects can be thought of as autopuns, where the semiotic "frame" lies between 3-D space and 2-D projections of that 3-D space
17:15 TimToady and our interpretations of those projections back into 3-D in our minds
17:16 TimToady something kind of 2-level recursive there
17:16 TimToady it's like the automatic translator joke doesn't work unless you translate to Russian and then back to English
17:17 PerlJam that's an interesting notion.   Also the "location" of the autopun.  Where does it happen?  Is it an autopun only if we have a shared language?  a shared community?  a shared geography?  does it even require sharing?
17:18 TimToady you need the before/after to put the spotlight on some hidden semiotic process that is not apparent
17:19 isBEKaml joined #perl6
17:19 TimToady there's this sense in which an autopun must construct two different realities in our heads that then metaphorically fight somehow
17:21 TimToady in the semantic space we tend to call these "paradoxes", but they don't actually rise to the level of autopun unless there are pragmatics involved
17:21 PerlJam An image of a square wheel is a sort of autopun
17:21 TimToady indeed, "auto" in Greek just means "he/she/it"
17:21 TimToady in addition to self
17:22 TimToady so there has to be a self involved
17:22 TimToady all X are liars doesn't feel autopunny because X is too abstract
17:22 PerlJam masak: I think you'll have no problems coming up with new autopuns  ;)
17:23 HarryS joined #perl6
17:27 ggoebel joined #perl6
17:27 isBEKaml joined #perl6
17:36 PerlJam According to wikipedia, the Mayans used puns.   awwaiid's suggestion of combining the Mayans with  Perl 6 for an AFJ seems even more like a winner :)
17:38 * TimToady wonders if "end of the world" sounds like "Perl 6 released" in Mayan...
17:39 nine joined #perl6
17:40 nine Is current Rakudo using Parrot's OO stuff (classes and esp. methods) in any way?
17:42 jnthn nine: PAST and POST do
17:42 PerlJam nine: why do yo ask?
17:42 jnthn But Rakudo itself doesn't.
17:42 jnthn And PAST is getting replaced once I have the tuits.
17:43 jnthn I think virtually nothing in the NQP repository uses it either.
17:46 ggoebel joined #perl6
17:48 nine So it probably would not hurt if I add code to Parrot_find_method_direct? Just ask because I try hard to not touch any code path which is used in a single threaded program.
17:50 [Coke] +# 03/08/2012 - rakudo++ ; niecza (96.24%); pugs (35.08%)
17:50 [Coke] +"niecza",     20306,     1,   757,  1540, 22604, 23759
17:50 [Coke] +"pugs"  ,      7403,     0,  2887,   850, 11140, 23568
17:50 [Coke] +"rakudo",     21099,    31,   626,  1888, 23478, 24026
17:51 jnthn nine: Almost certainly not.
17:51 jnthn Though I'm a tad curious what you're adding there. :)
17:55 nine jnthn: I use completely separated memory domains for each thread so I have each thread run its own GC. For most parts this was quite simple to achieve, but method calls give me a hard time. I'm currently trying to share VTABLEs and classes between threads and just create a local copy of the method in Parrot_find_method_direct
17:57 jnthn Hm.
17:57 jnthn Yeah, if you have no notion of objects shared between threads then...there's not much else for it besides copying.
17:58 jnthn Guess handling sharing needs a write-barrier on share.
17:59 nine For all other objects I use simple proxies which just forward all VTABLE calls to the proxied object. But calling a sub this way would cause the sub to run in its original interp's context screwing things up.
18:01 fglock joined #perl6
18:03 att joined #perl6
18:05 eiro fglock, are you concidering giving your astonishing talk at fpw ?
18:05 fglock eiro: hi
18:05 eiro hi :)
18:06 fglock that's the French Perl Workshop?
18:06 fglock I don't know - looking it up
18:07 eiro please!
18:07 fglock 24th and 25th of June - looks good :)
18:08 eiro fglock, where have you seen those date ?
18:08 eiro it's actually june 29,30
18:09 eiro http://journeesperl.fr/fpw2012/
18:09 dalek specs: efdbdd8 | larry++ | S32-setting-library/Str.pod:
18:09 dalek specs: spec fc, remove capitalize (see titlecase)
18:09 dalek specs:
18:09 dalek specs: capitalize was defined in terms of ucfirst, which no longer exists.
18:09 dalek specs: We also need to support case folding as defined by Unicode.
18:09 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/efdbdd8165
18:09 fglock http://journeesperl.fr/fpw2011/
18:09 eiro fglock, let me check but i think we're in 2012 :)
18:10 fglock heh
18:10 eiro fglock, was it the default page for ya
18:11 fglock I just got a link from google
18:11 fglock didn't pay much attention to the small detail of dates
18:12 fglock perlito5 progress report:
18:12 fglock imported all the CORE prototypes
18:12 fglock some prototypes work; some "difficult" parses work now
18:12 fglock self-compile time is now 10s in v8
18:13 fglock perl5-to-perl6 probably need to reuse the javascript data model
18:14 fglock thinking about a low-level backend (parrot or dot-net maybe)
18:15 fglock there is lots of "low-hanging fruit" accumulating
18:18 eiro fglock, it would be cool to report
18:33 skids ERROR: OK. # short autopun
18:41 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
18:45 am0c joined #perl6
18:58 _buno_ joined #perl6
19:00 TimToady perl6: die "Alive"
19:00 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Alive␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) ␤  at /tmp/dpIcVRsu2l line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (module…
19:00 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** Alive␤    at /tmp/Cy8yc1UjZf line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
19:00 p6eval ..rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«Alive␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/N6X7hTyGT2:1␤␤»
19:07 aindilis joined #perl6
19:08 isBEKaml joined #perl6
19:22 plobsing joined #perl6
19:22 ggoebel on the subject of renaming perl6... I don't think that could ever fly without TimToady's blessing and the consent of the folks implementing perl6
19:22 ggoebel perl6 distributions are at liberty to call themselves whatever
19:24 ggoebel I get the significance of the name change, baggage, etc...
19:25 PerlJam ggoebel: That's why it would make a good AFJ.  :)
19:25 ggoebel but can't really accept it either
19:26 ggoebel april fool's joke?
19:26 PerlJam aye
19:27 ggoebel AFD is coming up soon
19:29 ggoebel Akoya oysters are used to produce cultured pearls... Maybe someone can do something with that...
19:31 PerlJam Is it a kind of autopun when someone asks a question that contains the answer within the question?
19:31 PerlJam (they mention the thing they should use)
19:32 skids I just consider those lmgtfy bait.
19:36 skids "Perl6 renames itself to «insert particularly hard to compose unicode sequence here»"
19:36 masak PerlJam: the only such autopun I know is the one from bash.org: "You should learn how to find things out for yourself." -- "How do I do that?"
19:36 havenn joined #perl6
19:37 flussence I'm thinking of writing a buggy, incomplete set of perl6 scripts for website templates...
19:37 masak ha, here: http://bash.org/?3936 :)
19:37 flussence I'll call it "Perl 6 Hypertext something something"!
19:38 masak flussence: "...Matt's archive" :)
19:38 masak it'll be an instant success.
19:39 masak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt's_Script_Archive
19:40 flussence ouch... I never knew about that yet I recognise the name "FormMail.pl"
19:41 moritz Serialization Error: Unimplemented object type 'CTMThunk' passed to write_ref
19:41 moritz that's what I get when playing with sink
19:42 jnthn Urgh
19:42 flussence .oO( I know! I'll call it Perl 6 HTML Plus. It can be abbreviated to "P6H+", like that HQ9+ language. )
19:42 jnthn moritz: Yeah, I guess that "can't happen" situation can happen.
19:42 jnthn moritz: It's a relatively easy fix.
19:43 dalek rakudo/sink2: 85c63c5 | moritz++ | / (9 files):
19:43 dalek rakudo/sink2: re-apply the interesting parts of the "sink" branch
19:43 dalek rakudo/sink2: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/85c63c5350
19:43 moritz it's surpsing how little change it is alltogether
19:44 Trashlord joined #perl6
19:44 moritz the sink branch, that is
19:46 localhost joined #perl6
19:48 jnthn moritz: nomming now, will fix the serializer after that
19:49 moritz jnthn: ok, no hurry
19:50 * moritz tries to remember the diagram we wrote on that blackboard in ER
20:03 * TimToady wonders why there'd be a blackboard in the emergency room, and how much beer moritz had to drink to end up there...
20:03 leprevost joined #perl6
20:04 TimToady that would explain why he can't remember it, though...
20:10 masak TimToady: you've written an editor in Perl 6?
20:10 masak is it published somewhere? :)
20:11 thou joined #perl6
20:13 [Coke] phenny: tell au that https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/6 is another one that might get us a large number of unrelated tests. Any pointers on where to look for the grammar of a sub name?
20:13 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when au is around.
20:13 TimToady it's not a text editor
20:14 masak ok.
20:14 masak I guess I assumed it was. I've been thinking of writing one.
20:15 TimToady it's a quiz editor for the quizzing my wife coaches, which I scorekeep for at meets
20:15 TimToady but it does do single character entry and updates the screen as things change
20:16 TimToady and works a bit like a specialized spreadsheet, so performance matters
20:16 masak nod.
20:19 snearch joined #perl6
20:20 [Coke] masak: port padre?
20:21 TimToady possible autopun: https://twitter.com/#!/BryanRoberts72/status/177778947528982528/photo/1
20:21 am0c joined #perl6
20:22 masak [Coke]: more like, one warm summer evening I had three distinct ideas for how to extend a vim-like editor to be awesome.
20:22 masak I only remember two of them now.
20:22 TimToady 1st idea, rewrite the whole thing in P6
20:22 masak one was to allow for Perl 6 code refactoring by hooking it up with a STD parser somehow.
20:23 masak the other was to scrap the file system and replace it by a git repo, and then follow the logical consequences of that decision.
20:23 masak that latter idea still excites me sometimes.
20:23 NamelessTee joined #perl6
20:24 masak imagine seamlessly switching between file edit mode, git blame mode, git log mode, and git branch mode.
20:24 masak all inside of a vim-like editor.
20:25 [Coke] masak: vim++, git++
20:25 bacek joined #perl6
20:25 TimToady track blame on a byte-by-byte basis and you're starting to reimplement Xanadu :)
20:25 masak <skids> ERROR: OK. # short autopun
20:26 * [Coke] wonders if he can trick timtoady into hacking on pugs.
20:26 masak I'm sorry, I only see a contradiction there. no autopun...
20:26 Tene masak: you're familiar with https://github.com/tpope/vim-fugitive yes?
20:26 masak Tene: nope. looking.
20:26 * TimToady has hacked on pugs before, hence is wary :)
20:27 [Coke] TimToady: is https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/6 something you could point me in a direction on ?
20:27 masak Tene: nice.
20:27 TimToady I'm afraid hacking in Haskell will turn me into a genius with no empathy for the common man :)
20:27 eiro TimToady, can i quote you ?
20:28 TimToady nobody is allowed to quote me ever
20:28 TimToady fat load of good that does :)
20:28 flussence .oO( the policy is strictly misquotes only )
20:28 Tene http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Larry_Wall ;)
20:29 TimToady I bet almost everything there is more than ten years old...
20:29 eiro you said you prefer forgive than forbid
20:29 Tene http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Larry_Wall#Larry_Wall_Speaks_at_Google_.282008.29
20:30 TimToady I said a great many things that I never said, but I'm not as good at it as Yogi Berra...
20:30 Tene eh, you did say "almost"
20:30 integral joined #perl6
20:30 [Coke] pugs: say 3.sec
20:30 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&sec"␤    at /tmp/RJ9Aa0mayY line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
20:30 [Coke] pugs: say sec(3)
20:30 p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&sec"␤    at /tmp/I8WMRsQeDT line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
20:32 TimToady I hedge every statement I make.  Well, almost every.
20:33 masak :P
20:34 masak autopuns are funny exactly because the link between use and mention is there, triggers in the listener's brain, and becomes something like a "shared secret" between speaker and listener that both can smile knowingly at.
20:35 TimToady or :P at
20:35 masak actually, much humor seems to involve passing a closure into the listener's brain for them to execute.
20:36 TimToady that's what you thunk
20:36 PerlJam masak++ a nice techie analogy  :)
20:36 masak in the case of autopuns, it's "<mention>. <use>. { now look what I just did, putting those close to each other }"
20:36 TimToady autopuns are a bit like quines
20:37 * flussence wonders if autopuns can be used for effective captchas...
20:37 PerlJam flussence: until humor can be automated :-)
20:37 TimToady you think bulgarian grannies are not smart enough to follow them?
20:37 PerlJam But then you get the problem of people with no sense of humor
20:37 TimToady why is that a problem?
20:38 TimToady </rimshot>
20:39 TimToady well, I suppose it should be <rimshot/> really
20:39 PerlJam masak: Have you heard the song "Say you'll haunt me" by the group Stone Sour?
20:39 masak no. finding it.
20:40 TimToady .oO(You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you...)
20:40 [Coke] ww
20:40 * [Coke] suggests updating S06-operator-overloading/sub.t 's "correct overloaded method called" test.
20:40 PerlJam masak: your comment about a shared secret made me think of that song.
20:40 [Coke] rw!
20:40 PerlJam masak: "Little souvenirs and secrets shared, Little off guard and unprepared"
20:41 flussence .oO( rw = read-write, ww = write amplification... )
20:43 * TimToady wants :aro = "almost read-only"
20:44 * TimToady wonders how that differs from :arw...
20:44 fsergot joined #perl6
20:44 PerlJam the former is easier to pronounce :)
20:45 fsergot hi o/
20:45 masak PerlJam: interesting music video.
20:45 masak fsergot! \o/
20:46 [Coke] :raw
20:50 buubot_backup joined #perl6
20:56 TimToady [Coke]: In regard to helping you with Haskell, either giving you a fish or teaching you how to fish would entail me learning how to fish again first...
20:58 TimToady and if you try to teach me, we'd have entail recursion...
20:58 masak [Coke]: I'm eager to help. I will not have tuits of that shape until $weekend, though.
21:21 diakopter entrail recursion?
21:21 diakopter oh, entail
21:23 jnthn o/ diakopter :)
21:28 masak diakopter! \o/
21:36 icwiener joined #perl6
21:38 pat_js joined #perl6
21:45 havenn joined #perl6
21:50 felher I just wanted to briefly note that there is an incomplete sentence in the specs (starting at S04-control.pod:1057) which i am - sadly - not able to fix. Maybe someone with exceptional perl6 experience can fix it? :)
21:54 pat_js joined #perl6
21:59 havenn joined #perl6
22:03 masak that one can only be fixed by someone who understands the exception model, I'm afraid ;)
22:04 jnthn I guess I could take a
22:04 masak :P
22:05 felher :)
22:07 jnthn Hm. Not immediately obvious how to fix that one.
22:12 masak it's as if the one who wrote that sentence got interrupted by a thought flow escape mechanism of some sort, and didn't handle the interruption properly.
22:15 felher Hihi, indeed :)
22:16 dalek specs: a0d5a9e | jnthn++ | S04-control.pod:
22:16 dalek specs: A couple of fixes to the exceptions spec.
22:16 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/a0d5a9eda3
22:16 masak there should be, like, specific instructions for how to behave in such situations.
22:16 jnthn That should do it.
22:18 felher \o/
22:18 felher jnthn++
22:18 eiro thanks masak! (for the talk proposal)
22:18 masak you're welcome.
22:19 masak I should probably include some slides about Gödel numbering in my next instance of the autopuns lightning talk.
22:20 felher Since we are currently at exceptions: Maybe one could explain to me why we do "set_outer_caller's_bang(@handled) unless @unhandled;" in the code just above that part? :)
22:20 felher The outer caller gets all handles exceptions in it's @!, if there aren't any unhandled exceptions?
22:20 jnthn felher: Correct
22:20 jnthn felher: It's an optimization really
22:21 jnthn felher: And may well be a false one
22:21 jnthn The reasoning is that if there are unhandled exceptions, we will unwind the stack beyond this point, so the @! we set in that statement could never be read.
22:22 jnthn Though in today's Rakudo, storing a lexical is probably cheaper than the condition check. :)
22:28 felher jnthn: ah, okay. I think i got it.  :) My last question would be: What exactly is the outer-caller: Can  i do the following: "sub-that-handles-all-exceptions-in-a-catch-block(foo); for @! { ... #check what exceptions were handled by sub-that...}"
22:29 felher jnthn: is that the outer-caller that gets its @! set?
22:31 jnthn hm
22:31 jnthn ah
22:31 jnthn nom: try { die "foo" }; say $!
22:31 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«foo␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/2D0QePVnpc:1␤␤»
22:32 jnthn nom: try { die "foo" }; say $!.message
22:32 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«foo␤»
22:32 jnthn I thought it was something to do with the setting of the $! there
22:33 jnthn nom: { die "foo"; CATCH { default { } } }; say $!
22:33 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«foo␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/ldKu89LpyM:1␤␤»
22:33 jnthn nom: { die "foo"; CATCH { default { } } }; say $!.message
22:33 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«foo␤»
22:33 jnthn Like that with an explicit CATCH
22:36 aindilis joined #perl6
22:37 felher nom: sub exc() { die "blar"; CATCH { default { } } }; exc(); say $!.message;
22:37 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«Method 'message' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/9aG6hyJvNe:1␤␤»
22:38 thelazydeveloper joined #perl6
22:39 felher In this case, isn't the 'say $!.message' part the outer-caller?
22:40 jnthn I'm mostly confused by the term "outer caller" there
22:40 jnthn It feels more like outer-outer or some such
22:41 jnthn "the place we're going to unwind to"
22:42 felher Would the "say $!.message"-part be the place we're going to unwind to?
22:42 jnthn Yes
22:42 djanatyn joined #perl6
22:43 felher jnthn: okay, great :)
22:43 felher jnthn: so, thanks for your patience and explanations :) jnthn++
22:43 jnthn nom: sub foo() { die "lol"; CATCH { default { } } }; foo(); say $!.message
22:43 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«Method 'message' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/H_cisZ8Bx7:1␤␤»
22:43 Tene joined #perl6
22:43 Tene joined #perl6
22:43 jnthn perl6: sub foo() { die "lol"; CATCH { default { } } }; foo(); say $!.message
22:44 p6eval rakudo 4235df: OUTPUT«Method 'message' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/rlLn1XYcCM:1␤␤»
22:44 p6eval ..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** lol␤    at /tmp/iU1tM_vq1W line 1, column 49-54␤       /tmp/iU1tM_vq1W line 1, column 13-22␤»
22:44 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method message in class Any␤  at /tmp/FqhAvC_nrh line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home…
22:44 jnthn If it really meant caller I'd kinda expect that to work.
22:49 felher For a moment i thought it works in pugs. But pugs just doesn't catch the exception, i think.
22:53 aindilis joined #perl6
22:54 dalek nqp: f2d0311 | jnthn++ | src/6model/serialization.c:
22:54 dalek nqp: Avoid CTMThunk write_ref error reported by moritz++.
22:54 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f2d0311603
22:54 jnthn phenny: tell moritz fixed the issue that sunk your progress earlier
22:54 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
23:12 marmalade joined #perl6
23:13 masak 'night, #perl6
23:17 felher o/
23:58 Timbus joined #perl6

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