Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-03-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:05 sorear moritz: ping
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01:26 colomon sorear: \o
01:27 sorear o/ colomon
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06:24 moritz sorear: pong
06:26 moritz Juerd: rakudo needs about 1.3G RAM to build. So the VM should maybe have 1.5G or so
06:29 moritz that's the biggest requirement, I think
06:30 sorear o/ moritz
06:31 sorear moritz: what I wanted to tell you, diakopter seems to have emailed
06:32 moritz sorear: that host04 will be shut down
06:32 moritz yes, I've received that email too
06:32 moritz which is why I'm talking with Juerd++ about moving stuff to feather3
06:33 sorear diakopter told me on IRC; email is not quite working for me atm
06:33 sorear I need to get out of this tuit black hole
06:34 sorear I am not going to get a new computer while I'm behind on schoolwork :|
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07:33 tadzik good morning #perl6
07:35 birdwind1pbird joined #perl6
07:39 masak dobre poranek, #perl6
07:47 tadzik dobry poranek :)
07:47 tadzik and "drodzy tadzik", would actually be "drogi tadziku", or something along
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08:00 masak hm... biernik?
08:01 masak or celownik?
08:02 masak I mean, where does the "-u" in "tadziku" come from?
08:02 moritz from the alphabet!j
08:02 tadzik hm
08:02 tadzik biernik is the one about "Tę" :)
08:02 moritz s/j$//
08:03 tadzik masak: it's wołacz
08:03 masak oh!
08:03 tadzik like "oh you"
08:03 masak rightright
08:03 tadzik it sounds the same in miejscownik
08:03 masak I'm not used to wołacz, I think.
08:03 tadzik it's also tadziku, but like in "o tadziku", "about tadzik"
08:04 moritz masak: fwiw on Sunday I got another game by the makes of "Zoff im Zoo"
08:04 masak ooh
08:04 tadzik I remember how it primary school wołacz sounded the most weird
08:04 tadzik oh, nice
08:04 moritz masak: this one is about filling Noah's Ark with animals...
08:04 tadzik btw, every person I've met so far loves Zoff im Zoo :)
08:04 moritz masak: in a way that the ark doesn't capsize, and the animals don't eat each other etc.
08:05 masak moritz: nice!
08:05 moritz and then the animals have to have compatible climate zones
08:05 moritz and shy animals won't enter cabins where there's a predator next to them
08:05 moritz and such fun
08:05 masak tadzik: I expected "tadziku" to be celownik, but it makes sense that it is wołacz. it wouldn't make much sense if t'were miejscownik :)
08:06 moritz it's a bit overwhelming at first, but the second run is quite fun
08:06 tadzik masak: celownik is the "I'm looking at", with questions "komu? czemu?". The answer to komu, czemu is naturally "tadzikowi"
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08:09 masak naturally. :)
08:09 masak yeah, that's how celownik works in most languages. it's like a "secondary object" thing.
08:09 tadzik do you know the trick with questions?
08:10 tadzik probably, yes
08:10 masak is it specially cased in some way?
08:10 masak Russian specially cases negative questions.
08:11 tadzik no, I mean the questions, helpers to przypadki
08:11 tadzik as with "komu? czemu?"
08:11 bonsaikitten chinese just tags the statement with "ma"
08:11 bonsaikitten very simple and elegant :)
08:12 masak bonsaikitten: well, that's one way they do it :)
08:12 masak tadzik: I think I get the principle, yes. I don't know the exact words in Polish, though.
08:12 bonsaikitten masak: right, language is never that mathematically clean
08:13 masak bonsaikitten: of all the natural language grammars though, Mandarin has the closest to mathematical elegance that I've encountered.
08:13 tadzik masak: I wouldn't remember what was behind separate przypadki if I didn't remember the questions :) I'll write a table for you
08:13 masak haha
08:13 bonsaikitten masak: only overshadowed by the homophomes and ambiguity in all other parts ...
08:14 bonsaikitten sometimes I have the feeling that most chinese don't understand each other at all
08:14 masak :)
08:14 masak homophones are inevitable in such a crowded phoneme space.
08:14 masak the trick to being understood is to make sure you're saying things that've been said ten thousand times before. :P
08:15 tadzik masak: oh, see http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przypadek#Przypadki_w_j.C4.99zyku_polskim
08:15 bonsaikitten masak: or write them down
08:15 bonsaikitten (haha, so funny)
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08:16 masak ;)
08:17 masak tadzik: once you start learning more case-based languages, each przypadek takes on its own life, and you won't need to "Kogo? Czego?" as much, I think.
08:18 tadzik masak: maybe
08:18 masak like, I have a clear sense of what "biernik" is and what its function is, regardless of language. (but in my head, I usually call it "the accusative")
08:18 tadzik akkusativ
08:18 tadzik that rings a bell
08:19 * moritz accuses masak of akkusativ
08:19 * masak feels accursed
08:20 masak oh, and if you *really* want to get to the bottom with how grammars work, study a constructed language.
08:20 bonsaikitten knowing multiple languages helps, but it makes it very hard to focus at times
08:20 tadzik "Oslo Perl Monger's first hackathon in 2012"
08:20 bonsaikitten I hate it when I remember a word I need in three other languages :\
08:20 tadzik so there'll be like, three more this year alone? :)
08:21 tadzik oh, I usually just let the english word slip through when I forget a polish word
08:21 masak bonsaikitten: yeah. there's research showing that bilinguals have two language engines constantly running in their brains, and it trips them up sometimes. but recent research also shows that it does so in a good way. :) makes you stop and reflect.
08:21 tadzik especially since I sometimes don't know the polish equivalent, or the meaning in polish
08:22 bonsaikitten masak: indeed, and it makes it easy to pick up new languages, but it's getting crowded in my head
08:22 masak I love living in a crowded head.
08:22 tadzik do clones live all in one head?
08:22 moritz what do your clones think about that?
08:22 moritz :-)
08:23 tadzik :)
08:23 sorear masak: does it matter how early you learn the languages?
08:23 bonsaikitten sorear: not as much as people claim
08:23 bonsaikitten with age you get slower in changing/adapting, but that's mostly a function of training
08:23 masak sorear: well, I learned Mandarin at 25 just in case it matters. :) but I've seen pensiners learn new languages, so...
08:24 masak pensioners*
08:24 masak retirees. whatever. :)
08:24 bonsaikitten masak: I'm 30 and just started learning it
08:24 dalek roast: 2023f06 | moritz++ | S04-phasers/pre-post.t:
08:24 dalek roast: test blockless PRE and POST
08:24 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2023f06895
08:25 * sorear wants to learn mandarin someday
08:25 masak bonsaikitten: hey, 我也是30岁的!
08:26 bonsaikitten masak: I can't read much yet
08:26 masak sorear: I think you'll like it.
08:26 sorear something about being as old as the Earth?
08:26 bonsaikitten masak: ah. are you in China?
08:26 masak bonsaikitten: "I too am 30 years old"
08:26 masak bonsaikitten: no, southern Sweden.
08:26 sorear I wonder what the metaphor of 也 is there
08:27 masak sorear: "also".
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08:27 masak I don't know the etymology of that one offhand.
08:27 sorear masak: is that the same character that jp glosses as /earth/?
08:27 bonsaikitten masak: interesting choice :)
08:28 masak sorear: you're probably thinking of 地 for "earth/soil".
08:28 sorear hmm, apparently not
08:29 sorear right.
08:29 masak sorear: note, identical sound component, but the radical/meaning component in 地 is (fittingly) "earth".
08:31 * sorear has not quite mastered the character set.
08:31 fglock pmurias: nice! #tests
08:31 sorear o/ fglock
08:32 pmurias fglock: hi
08:33 fglock o/
08:33 * sorear ---> sleep
08:33 * fglock wake up
08:38 pmurias fglock: the way small numbers are now stringified is a bit of a guess as i only found a description of it on perlmonks and it wasn't clear from the perl5 source that it's always like that
08:42 fglock pmurias: it looks good; we can add more tests later
08:42 fglock (adding more context tests now)
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08:46 pmurias offical or custom ones?
08:48 masak 'night, sorear. dream of mastering the entire character set.
08:49 fglock adding custom tests - the official ones are too general, I can't test specific features
08:54 fglock now let's try to make the test pass
08:55 * pmurias has to go some extremely boring networking classes at uni which consist of staring a the screen waiting (with no internet access) for others to type some commands
08:56 moritz bring your own laptop and do some perl 6 coding :-)
08:58 moritz r: ENTER { say 1 }
08:58 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:58 moritz r: KEEP { say 1 }
08:58 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:58 moritz r: UNDO { say 1 }
08:58 p6eval rakudo b2505b:  ( no output )
08:58 moritz r: UNDO { say 'undone' }; die 'foo'
08:58 p6eval rakudo b2505b:  ( no output )
08:58 moritz that doesn't look right :/
08:59 * masak submits rakudobug
09:00 masak expected output: 'undone␤foo at blablabla'
09:00 moritz r: do { UNDO say "undone"; die "foo" }
09:00 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«foo␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/zh8VsY8sVT:1␤␤»
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09:00 moritz r: try do { UNDO say "undone"; die "foo" }
09:00 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«undone␤»
09:00 moritz n: do { UNDO say "undone"; die "foo" }
09:00 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«undone␤Unhandled exception: foo␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/Md7BlPOAh4 line 1 (ANON @ 1) ␤  at /tmp/Md7BlPOAh4 line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.se…
09:02 masak r: try { UNDO say "undone"; die "foo" }
09:02 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«undone␤»
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09:45 masak r: { UNDO say "undone"; fail }; say "alive"
09:45 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«alive␤»
09:45 masak :/
09:46 masak r: sub foo { UNDO say "undone"; fail }; foo; say "alive"
09:46 p6eval rakudo b2505b: OUTPUT«alive␤»
09:46 moritz n: sub foo { UNDO say "undone"; fail }; foo; say "alive"
09:46 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤      'fail' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 33) â�¤  at /home…
10:07 masak someone solves the preschooler problem by feeding it into an OLS regression: http://www.cerebralmastication.com/2012/03/solving-easy-problems-the-hard-way/
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10:10 arnsholt "There. I’m as smart as a preschooler. And I have code to prove it." =D
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10:13 moritz though of course it requires to first know (or guess) that the frequencies of the digits are important, not their position
10:14 bbkr what's the difference between "$d where { !$d.defined }" and Any:U in signature?
10:14 moritz the latter is probably more expensive
10:15 moritz erm, other way round
10:15 bbkr Any:U is 40% faster in benchmarks
10:15 moritz the where-block is slower
10:15 moritz but semantically they should be the same
10:16 masak so :U and :D target .defined, not .DEFINITE?
10:16 bbkr https://github.com/moritz/json/blob/nom/lib/JSON/Tiny.pm#L45 - this can be optimized then :)
10:16 dalek rakudo/nom: d76065e | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
10:16 dalek rakudo/nom: fix typo
10:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d76065e777
10:17 moritz bbkr: already is, in branch 'master'
10:17 moritz I should probably delete the 'nom' branch
10:18 moritz done.
10:18 bbkr indeed it is optimized. moritz++
10:19 moritz bbkr: but your question helped me find a typo in the rakudo sources :-)
10:19 moritz I did an  ack 'where.*defined'
10:19 moritz and an error message showed up, and I noticed it was a typo/grammaro :-)
10:19 bbkr :)
10:23 masak bbkr++
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10:47 masak r: my $o = class {}; role W[$s] { method q { say $s; nextsame } }; ((((((($o but W["wrapper?"]) but W["great"]) but W["a"]) but W["become"]) but W["wanna"]) but W["you"]) but W["so"]).q
10:47 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«so␤you␤wanna␤become␤a␤great␤wrapper?␤»
10:47 masak \o/
10:48 masak infix:<but> is the OO decorator's dream come true.
10:50 arnsholt That's pretty awesome! =D
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10:53 masak I think that use is a seed for a talk in itself.
10:53 masak consider the great uses OO decoration could be put to in a graphical-primitives framework, or a windowing system.
10:54 masak the mind boggles.
10:54 jt__ r: say "=" x -5
10:54 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«␤»
10:54 moritz I'd caution against overusing that pattern
10:55 moritz I think it makes control flow hard to follow
10:55 arnsholt Quite. There's some nifty potential for obfus there
10:55 moritz and the objects hard to introspect
10:56 arnsholt On the other hand, I think I might steal that one for a JAP6H sigline
10:56 jt__ r: say "=" x 5
10:56 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«=====␤»
10:56 * moritz ponders updating the starry obfu
10:56 jt__ r: say "=" x 0
10:56 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«␤»
10:59 masak r: role W[$s] { method q { say $s; nextsame } }; ([but] class {}, W["hacker"], W["6"], W["Perl"], W["another"], W["just"]).q
10:59 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«just␤another␤Perl␤6␤hacker␤»
10:59 masak \o/
10:59 arnsholt Ok, I'm gonna steal that one instead =D
11:00 moritz r: role W[$s] { method q { say $s; nextsame } }; ([but] class {}, <Just another Perl 6 hacker>.reverse.map: {W[$_]}).q
11:00 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Just␤another␤Perl␤6␤hacker␤»
11:01 arnsholt r: role W[$s] { method q { say $s; nextsame } }; ([but] class {}, W["hacker"], W["Perl6"], W["another"], W["just"]).q
11:01 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«just␤another␤Perl6␤hacker␤»
11:01 arnsholt Whee. Let's see how my colleagues respond to this one =D
11:02 masak mwhaha
11:02 moritz std: [xx] 3
11:02 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
11:02 moritz it's not too diffy?
11:03 arnsholt One of the professors replied with C-x C-s to my old one (:wq)
11:04 masak :P
11:06 masak moritz: infix:<xx> doesn't feel diffy to me.
11:06 masak it accepts a list and produces a list.
11:06 moritz hm right
11:06 moritz std: [x] 3
11:06 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
11:06 masak same deal there.
11:07 masak the 'diffy' label is for things like infix:<lt>, that absorb not-necessarily-booleans and emit booleans.
11:08 masak oddly, STD.pm6 places the whole 'structural infix' category, of which infix:<but> is a part, under the 'diffy label'.
11:09 masak I can see it for all the others in that category: 'does', '<=>', 'cmp', 'leg', '..', but not for 'but'.
11:16 colomon Just reading http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3728670 and thinking that almost everything he lists is actually shorter in p6...
11:17 * colomon can't remember the last time he thought about using chomp....
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11:30 masak I think about using chomp whenever I use Perl 5, which is quite often. :)
11:30 masak when I can get away with it, I use variations of 'perl -l', though.
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11:57 grondilu on planetsix.perl.org there is an article from the future!!  (April, 14th 2012)
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12:06 flussence stumped on something: I've got a module that exports subs and I'm trying to split those into smaller modules and just have one top-level module that imports them all. Problem is neither rakudo nor niecza support `use :EXPORT`. Is there any other way to do that right now?
12:08 flussence I suppose making them roles would work, but they make more sense as standalone modules...
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12:28 moritz r: my &foo is export = &join;
12:28 p6eval rakudo d76065:  ( no output )
12:28 moritz flussence: maybe you can cheat with something like that
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12:32 masak grondilu: yeah. sorry about that.
12:32 masak there's also arnsholt's popular piece "No such pipe, or this pipe has been deleted"
12:33 masak which I first took to be a scathing criticism of Super Mario Bros, but it turns out it's a Yahoo snafu of some sort.
12:35 moritz r: https://gist.github.com/2134734
12:35 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Just another Perl»
12:35 moritz that's the updated version of the Starry Obfu
12:36 tadzik oh my
12:38 masak mojose. moritz++
12:39 moritz there were two changes that broke the old one
12:39 moritz fist it assumed that .map was eager
12:39 moritz and the second is that (* + *) used to generate an arity-1 closure
12:39 moritz that's why the xx.count is now necessary
12:40 masak ah. the second one I had guessed.
12:40 moritz the first one is the reason for adding a + in front
12:40 moritz though maybe ~ would have more style
12:40 lcc joined #perl6
12:41 lcc is perl6 going to be a completely different yet similar language to perl 5? will they coexist side by side?
12:41 moritz it's not going to, it already is
12:41 moritz and yes, they do coexist, and will continue to
12:41 moritz though we hope to also integrate them
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12:43 masak the specification phase of Perl 6 -- the part where questions could legitimately start with "is Perl 6 going to..." -- ended in late 2004.
12:43 grondilu r:  say reduce 1/*+*, 2 xx 10, 1; # A cool way to write sqrt2 (continuous fractions are cool :-)  )
12:43 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«1.41421355164605␤»
12:43 daxim too informative == scary
12:43 masak probably, yes.
12:43 daxim so no more spec changes? I don't believe it
12:44 masak I didn't say that.
12:44 moritz r: sub infix:<c> { 1 / $^a * $^b }; say [c] 2 xx 10
12:44 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:44 daxim it sounded so
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12:44 moritz r: sub infix:<c> { 1 / $^a + $^b }; say [c] 2 xx 10
12:44 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«2.41421362489487␤»
12:44 daxim do you mean that the essential part of the spec was done by 2004?
12:44 masak S01..S06, S09..S13 were created by 2004.
12:44 moritz r: sub infix:<c> { 1 / $^a + $^b }; say [c] 1, 2 xx 10
12:44 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«2.41421349985132␤»
12:45 moritz r: sub infix:<c> { 1 / $^a + $^b }; say [c] 2 xx 10, 1
12:45 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«1.41421355164605␤»
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12:45 masak after that, they have been *refined*, and sometimes significantly changed or revised, but we haven't changed goals or anything like that.
12:45 masak we're still trying to create the language outlined in those synopses.
12:45 moritz daxim: the time where earth-changing proposals were likely to be accepted is over
12:46 masak interestingly, just as that phase closed, Pugs got going.
12:46 masak maybe Pugs was in some sense inevitable.
12:46 daxim what if masak figures out that the harder part of macros can't be done, and it is better dropped like that other feature (I can't remember now)?
12:46 masak class-level PRE/POST?
12:46 masak er, method-level PRE/POST?
12:47 moritz for example just the other day there was a post on parrot-dev calling for Perl 6 to be "parallel by default". That mostly provoked a small chuckle here
12:47 daxim drawing a blank on that one
12:47 masak let me know if you remember which feature :)
12:47 moritz want()?
12:47 masak anyway, answering your question:
12:47 daxim yes, I think it was want()
12:47 masak want simply didn't fit in once we thought of MMD hard enough.
12:48 masak there can't be a universe with both want() and our kind of MMD.
12:48 masak anyway, answering your question:
12:48 masak (1) I'm certain there will be surprises wrt macros. they're underspec'd.
12:48 Teratogen joined #perl6
12:48 Teratogen greetings and felicitations
12:49 masak o/
12:49 Teratogen hi masak
12:49 domidumont joined #perl6
12:49 masak (2) I don't see any obstacles, other than things being generally non-trivial, ahead. and I've been thinking a lot about macros in Rakudo in the last 6 months.
12:49 zhutingting rakudo: say [+] 1..100
12:49 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«5050␤»
12:50 moritz (3) there are already languages that have macros quite similar to what Perl 6 wants
12:50 moritz (there wasn't any language that had want() *and* multi dispatch)
12:50 masak in fact, what's positive about nom and the recent refactors, is that they make the vision we have for macros eminently doable. it's almost as if those refactors had macros in mind. (which I don't think they did.)
12:52 masak this last detail points to a larger trend, which I think may become a bigger influence in the design as we go along: it seems that we are increasingly finding deep interrelations between previously unrelated parts of the Perl 6 design.
12:53 masak it's as if patterns emerge, and we can choose to capitalize on them to make the design simpler and more consistent.
12:53 masak things that go against such emerging patterns are in danger of becoming scrapped. the method-level PRE/POST were like that.
12:54 masak macros, on the other hand, show many of the same interactions with parsing and fixups as parametric roles do. which makes me very hopeful.
12:54 moritz although it's sometimes disappointing, we confine ourselves to the possible :-)
12:55 masak I'm willing to settle with the unbelievably awesome. :)
12:57 moritz that sometimes mean that we rip out features that just aren't possible, or don't make sense
12:57 * geekosaur would not say "scrapped" there, so much as "set aside until the way they fit in becomes visible"
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13:02 masak fair enough.
13:02 moritz well, for want() we know it's not computable. You can accuse me of lacking vision, but I don't see how that's ever going to change
13:03 masak and for method PRE/POST it didn't adhere to normal lexical scoping rules, which sounds rather tame but is actually pretty damning.
13:04 masak I'd say it rather indicates that we wanted something else, not that particular feature :)
13:05 geekosaur I guess i"m looking at it at a more meta level; I'm seeing them both as concepts which are not workable as is but which can serve as placeholders until we figure out what we *really* want
13:06 geekosaur so, really the same thing looked at differently
13:06 moritz we have that, in the case of want
13:06 moritz (objects that can do different things based on the context they are used in)
13:06 masak and jnthn quickly provided a way to do PRE/POST submethods through the metaclass.
13:07 masak and TheDamian suggested a way to do DbC, though it hasn't been tried yet.
13:09 masak my point is that we're now clearly living in the third age. 2000-2004 was the Age of Spec. 2005-2011(+-1) was the Age of Implementation. the transition is fuzzy, but we're now increasingly living in the Age of Product.
13:10 PerlJam masak++ quite so!
13:10 masak coming to terms with living under new circumstances is hard, even for us.
13:10 moritz though I haven't quite grokked yet (or forgotten) how the traits-based solution to DbC solves the scoping problem
13:11 masak it's not just about telling confuzzled newbies "it's not 'Perl 6 will be', it's 'Perl 6 is'", we have to fully make that transition ourselves, too.
13:12 moritz I wonder if p6l can ever make that transition
13:13 masak that's probably mostly up to us.
13:13 masak arguably its main goal -- a general platform for the discussion about the design of Perl 6 -- has largely come to pass.
13:14 moritz well, we still need such a platform, but on a quit different level
13:14 arnsholt moritz: I think the decree "the spec as of revision deadbeef" is Perl 6.0.0 might shake up that, when it comes =)
13:15 moritz arnsholt: I dearly hope so
13:15 PerlJam arnsholt: Who makes said decree?
13:15 PerlJam arnsholt: and how do we get him to do so?  ;)
13:15 arnsholt TimToady, I'd assume
13:16 moritz aye
13:16 masak fwiw, this is one of my favorite moments on p6l -- the meeting between the Idealists and the Pragmatists: http://www.mail-archive.com/perl6-language@perl.org/msg32926.html
13:16 moritz and we get him to do it by presenting an awesome compiler and ask "CAN HAZ P6 PULEZE?"
13:16 arnsholt And we know how to make him do it: Iterate on and implement the spec until all parts have been explored enough ;)
13:18 moritz masak: yes, that's epic
13:19 tyatpi joined #perl6
13:20 * PerlJam starts writing the patch for a base-4 notation
13:20 PerlJam (another base-4 notation I shoudl say)
13:21 att_ joined #perl6
13:21 masak I believe interesting, constructive discussions could (and probably should) still take place on p6l. we still have stuff to figure out in the vicinity of slangs, I'm sure.
13:22 PerlJam Perl 6 -- a programming language that you can tell jokes in.
13:23 moritz but how do we tell them that we are *not* after hand-waving ideas?
13:23 masak lead by example? start every email with "As you know in Rakudo [...] <running code>"
13:23 fglock pmurias: t/op/splice.t pass
13:26 PerlJam For all the people using Perl 6, it seems perl6-users doesn't get enough traffic.
13:27 PerlJam but I guess if no one is using it "for real" or "in production" it doesn't count?
13:29 masak maybe p6u would have more traffic if IRC didn't absorb much of it.
13:31 PerlJam Did any of you see Ovid's "kickin' it old school" post?  http://blogs.perl.org/users/ovid/2012/03/kickin-it-old-school.html
13:32 daxim I've seen it.
13:32 PerlJam I remember reading Byte and Home Computer Magazine and getting some book with BASIC programs in them so that I could type those programs in and modify and extend them.
13:32 PerlJam Where are the equivalent publications of today?
13:32 daxim they died around 1999
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13:33 moritz you can now copy&paste code from blogs
13:36 pmurias joined #perl6
13:38 PerlJam I think my conceptualization of "Using Perl 6" has changed  (or whatever book would fill that niche)
13:38 PerlJam Currently it's kind of an exposition of Perl 6 features.  I  think we need something that more akin to "BASIC Computer Games" -- here's a collection of neat things you can do with Perl 6
13:39 masak PerlJam: "BASIC Computer Games" was on my mind when I wrote the 30 June blog posts last summer.
13:39 PerlJam (rosettacode leans this way but its idea of "neat things" isn't quite broad enough for the general population)
13:40 masak PerlJam: I've put them in a github repo to edit them into book form, but I haven't gotten around to the actual editing. maybe next June. :)
13:40 masak I believe it would be quite a nice book.
13:40 masak even as a PDF.
13:42 masak in fact, http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=106 and http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=44 both ended up in the June blogging.
13:42 PerlJam "From zero to adventure in 30 days"  ;)
13:42 masak and I didn't even know those were online nowadays. that's awesome.
13:43 masak oh, and http://www.atariarchives.org/basicgames/showpage.php?page=80 too, I guess.
13:48 PerlJam masak: looking over your repo, I'd say it would make a good book.   But one thing that bothers me is that some of the articles are still in terms of "Perl 6 feature" rather than "Something neat that you can do that just happens to use the feature"   (if that makes enough sense)
13:49 masak PerlJam: it does. I'll keep that in mind when editing.
13:49 PerlJam Those early BASIC books weren't about loops or arrays or whatever, they were about games and finance and home automation and whatever
13:49 masak yes, exactly.
13:51 masak someone asked on Twitter a while back "What should go in a programming cheat sheet for children?"
13:52 masak I replied "Children don't care about conditionals and loops. They want to draw graphics on the screen, play sounds and melodies, and make the computer behave in cool ways."
13:52 masak or something to that effect in the span of 140 characters.
13:52 PerlJam "Wonder"
13:53 PerlJam The hook that got me programming was a small thing:  I typed some stuff in, and the computer did something.   It didn't much matter what it did, just that I was able to affect change in the small universe of the computer.
13:54 PerlJam IT was a bonus that I could program graphics or music or a speech synthesizer or some LEDs or whatever
13:54 huf it's pretty much the one of two ways you can be a real life mage
13:54 huf and the only way to do it if you arent very good with people
13:54 jnthn The UNDO not firing when unwinding the stack due to an exception is just an NYI, I think.
13:54 masak Programming is the sufficiently advanced magic in the world that's increasingly indistinguishable from magic.
13:55 huf (programming and being in command of a large organizations are the only two ways i can think that simple thought can change the world)
13:55 masak s/magic/technology/
13:55 jnthn I don't recall explicitly making it work, and I can see it not "just falling out" of what I did.
13:55 masak jnthn: what about UNDO when calling exit() ? :)
13:56 jnthn No idea.
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13:56 jnthn Most phasers don't do the right thing if you explicitly exit right now.
13:56 jnthn ENDs don't run, for example.
13:56 masak right.
13:57 xinming joined #perl6
14:02 moritz any volunteers for the rakudo release on Thursday?
14:03 Su-Shee joined #perl6
14:03 Su-Shee hi all.
14:03 moritz \o Su-Shee
14:03 timotimo moritz: will this be the first rakudo release with bs?
14:03 moritz timotimo: I think so
14:04 jnthn Yes.
14:04 timotimo that's cool
14:04 moritz timotimo: do you want to do the release?
14:04 grondilu "bs"??
14:04 moritz it's not hard, just following instructions; and you can ask here when something's not clear
14:04 timotimo sorry, no. i'm swamped with uni exam learning and only occasionally dare to check out irc :|
14:04 moritz grondilu: "bounded serialization"
14:04 grondilu oh, ok
14:04 moritz timotimo: quite understandable
14:05 masak I'm ready to do the release. I'd prefer it if someone new did it.
14:05 masak hi, Su-Shee
14:06 timotimo will rakudo (or perl6 if that's something to put into the spec) get something like pyc files? that is pre-serialized versions of the code? so that, for instance, if i have a BEGIN block that's pure, or maybe a couple of constants, they can be read directly instead of being constructed at startup/use time?
14:07 moritz yes
14:07 moritz currently you have the option to precompile modules do PIR
14:07 moritz but we're not very happy with that
14:07 moritz in the long run, we want rakudo to manage the compilation cache
14:08 PerlJam timotimo: that's not a future-tense sort of thing even; it's available now
14:08 jnthn moritz: Probably in the medium run :)
14:08 jnthn moritz: It's a continual pain point.
14:08 lumi__ So I set up nightly smolder for Rakudo, but it doesn't seem to pick up the parrot revision (it's sent as "1", I think, for some reason)
14:09 timotimo cool
14:10 benabik parrot_revision is a fossil from the days of SVN.  parrot_config git_describe or sha1 are the way to get the version now.
14:10 xinming joined #perl6
14:10 moritz yep, we need to fix the Makefile for that
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14:15 grondilu r: sub CF($x is copy) { gather loop { take my $a = $x.floor; last if $x == $a; $x = 1/($x - $a) } }; say CF(<100/13>)
14:15 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Method 'eager' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤  in sub coro at src/gen/CORE.setting:4793␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4774␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4545␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4545␤  in method gimme at src…
14:15 grondilu this used to work, didn't it?
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14:16 moritz yes
14:16 moritz a workaround is   gather while True { ... }   iirc
14:16 grondilu ok
14:17 moritz though note that rakudo never had smart <...> literals
14:17 moritz so you'd need to write it as CF(100/13)
14:17 grondilu r: say (<1/3> + 1).perl
14:17 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«4/3␤»
14:17 grondilu ?
14:17 moritz oh
14:17 moritz wow
14:17 grondilu :)
14:17 moritz I'm really behind
14:18 moritz nom: say <1/3>.perl
14:18 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«"1/3"␤»
14:18 moritz hm
14:18 grondilu cool, huh?
14:18 moritz nom: say <1/3>.WHAT
14:18 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
14:18 moritz that's not quite right
14:18 masak something fishy going on here.
14:18 masak maybe the numification works...
14:18 moritz still better than I thought it was
14:18 masak ...but nothing else.
14:18 grondilu r: say eval(<1/3>).WHAT
14:18 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
14:18 moritz nom: say '1/3'.Numerc.perl
14:18 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Method 'Numerc' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/iZ_yoXOuna:1␤␤»
14:18 moritz nom: say '1/3'.Numeric.perl
14:18 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«1/3␤»
14:18 masak nom: say +<1/3>
14:18 p6eval rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«0.333333333333333␤»
14:19 masak yes, that's it.
14:19 moritz yep, .Numeric is smarter than <>
14:19 mikemol PerlJam: RC's idea of 'neat things' isn't sufficiently broad, IMO. Create tasks for what you'd like to see. Some folks will probably get in a huff at first, but things usually settle.
14:19 grondilu perl6: say <1/3>.WHAT
14:19 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
14:19 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Str␤»
14:19 p6eval ..rakudo d76065: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
14:20 PerlJam Anyone going to http://emerginglangs.com/ ?
14:20 PerlJam Perl 6 is still "emerging" isn't it?  :)
14:20 mikemol I haven't been able to be as active on RC as I'd like these past several months, so I haven't been able to participate in the discussions which have led the site to take a strong purist flavor recently.
14:20 * mikemol checks to see if he has an ebuild of it
14:21 mikemol Mm. Masked.
14:23 PerlJam mikemol: We'll see if I can muster enough activation energy to fire  :)
14:25 mikemol I tried writing an automaton task ages ago, but it didn't really pan out. Only a couple examples. Too complex, I suppose.
14:26 masak PerlJam: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-04-29#i_2276062
14:29 PerlJam masak: a) that was when emeringlangs was a OSCON track rather than at StrangeLoop and b) from some perspective, Perl is perhaps a *re*emerging language and c) I asked because I don't expect that everyone has the same opinions as TimToady nor do I expect everyone to kowtow to his opinion   :-)
14:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 704a215 | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
14:31 dalek rakudo/nom: try to fix parrot revision reporting for smolder submissions. lumi++
14:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/704a215c83
14:31 moritz lumi__: please re-try with that patch, at your convenience
14:32 mikemol PerlJam: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Remote_agent
14:33 masak PerlJam: for what it's worth, I don't think Perl 6 is an emerging language. I'd rather think of it as established and fairly mature.
14:33 grondilu perl6 "fairly mature"??   That's too much.
14:34 PerlJam masak: Ruby was fairly mature when it "emerged" due to Rails and other such technology
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14:35 PerlJam masak: Haskell was *really* mature when it emerged as a high-performance language
14:35 mikemol Haskell takes a long time to emerge. I noticed this when I needed to emerge bzr...
14:36 PerlJam masak: to quote the signup form for emerging langs:  "What compiler techniques, parser tricks, VM optimizations, or syntactical wizardry do you want to hear about?"  That sounds like it's right up Perl 6's alley
14:36 PerlJam grondilu: If that's too much, what would be just enough?
14:37 Chillance joined #perl6
14:38 grondilu I don't know, but right now there are just too many features and libraries missing.  IMHO
14:38 Su-Shee PerlJam: I wondered why Perl 6 isn't in emerging languages too, because if I consider the list of languages of last year.. it's about the new-feature-ness and new-capabilities and all. at least that was my impression.
14:38 PerlJam Su-Shee: exactly!
14:40 PerlJam masak: besides ... I think we shouldn't pass up any opportunity to expose Perl 6 to new audiences  (we just have to make sure to set expectations appropriately)
14:40 masak PerlJam: you might be right.
14:43 jnthn Time for a long bus journey &
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14:45 Su-Shee PerlJam: expectations appropriately? I'd say no other language has this kind of builtin grammar handling, the new regexes, the way "strings" are handled and so on.
14:47 PerlJam Su-Shee: We don't want to accidently give the expectation that Perl 6 has everything that Perl 5 has (yet) because  that will leave people frustrated that there's no CPAN
14:47 PerlJam (for instance)
14:48 PerlJam We have a programming language with multiple implementations in play.
14:48 PerlJam It works.   It's awesome.  There are still some things to be done.
14:50 Su-Shee PerlJam: if I remember correctly those are all base, builtin features. ;) also, none of the emerging language has anything even remotely cpanish.
14:51 Su-Shee PerlJam: it's about the features and capabilities.
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15:04 awwaiid I still don't get why all languages don't have a CPAN-alike. Or even better, why they don't just start sticking their modules on CPAN.
15:04 moritz because CPAN would object :-)
15:05 havenn joined #perl6
15:05 awwaiid think so? heh
15:06 PerlJam awwaiid: many languages *do* have a CPAN-alike ... they're just not as mature as CPAN yet, so they all seem a little backwards in some way
15:07 PerlJam gems, cabal, pear, etc
15:07 * Su-Shee collided with ri/rdoc yesterday because I silently expected all gems to have something like perldoc. ;)
15:07 Su-Shee hackage, npm..
15:07 Su-Shee pip..
15:11 awwaiid cran
15:12 fgomez joined #perl6
15:13 masak CTAN. I'm guessing that was the first C?AN.
15:14 PerlJam masak: AFAIK, yes
15:15 shinobicl joined #perl6
15:18 masak Wikipedia lists both JSAN (js) and CCAN (C) as descendants of the CPAN architecture.
15:18 geekosaur yes, CPAN was specifically named and modeled after CTAN in its beginning (d*mn that's an old memory...)(
15:19 PerlJam knuth++
15:19 arnsholt Also, lamport++
15:20 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
15:24 masak lamport?
15:25 arnsholt Leslie Lamport is the guy who made LaTeX
15:26 PerlJam and a nice book on LaTeX too IIRC
15:26 arnsholt TeX itself is quite low-level, and the LaTeX macros build on top of that to let you do better (more semantic markup) code
15:26 masak arnsholt: oh! I thought the name sounded familiar.
15:26 arnsholt He's also done CS research in concurrency
15:26 masak apparently, there was once a CJAN (Java).
15:26 masak arnsholt: is he the Lamport of "Lamport timestamps"?
15:27 arnsholt Quite possibly
15:28 arnsholt According to Wikipedia it's distributed systems, so timestamps are probably relevant
15:28 arnsholt IIRC he also proved that it's impossible to hide the distributedness of a distributed system
15:34 * masak wonders if the "La" in "LaTeX" is short for "Lamport"
15:36 geekosaur I think so, yes
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16:56 * masak decommutes
16:58 fgomez joined #perl6
17:18 frettled masak: have you been decommutative?  :)   (any plans for the hackathon in a month?)
17:27 sorear good * #perl6
17:27 moritz \o sorear
17:28 wolfman2000 joined #perl6
17:33 icwiener joined #perl6
17:34 sorear o/ moritz
17:35 att_ joined #perl6
17:35 colomon o/
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17:52 tadzik 'evening
17:53 sorear o/ tadzik
18:07 havenn joined #perl6
18:11 moritz lol I blug: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/2012-upcoming-p6-hackathon.html (sjn, feel hilighted :-)
18:12 tadzik oh, I wanted to blog too
18:13 moritz t gv öwww÷0p3~
18:13 tadzik oh, hello Ronja!
18:14 moritz Ronja also discovered Ctrl+Z :-)
18:14 sorear moritz++
18:14 sorear :(
18:14 mj41_nb joined #perl6
18:14 sorear I see Ronja has discovered the joy of umlauts
18:15 Cactapus joined #perl6
18:16 * moritz doesn't even know how to produce ÷ on his keyboard :-)
18:16 benabik Opt-/ on a Mac
18:17 tadzik heck, I wouldn't know how to produce an Opt on my keyboard :)
18:17 geekosaur opt on a mac is alt on pcs
18:17 benabik But Alt-/ is unlikely to do anything useful.  :-D
18:18 tadzik I think my colemak mixes everything up anyway :)
18:18 tadzik Alt-/ is ¿ here
18:18 Su-Shee_ joined #perl6
18:18 daxim AltGr+Shift+.
18:18 daxim I win
18:18 geekosaur (possibly altgr, depending on keyboard; macs kinda act like you always have an international keyboard configured, whereas linux and windows tend to default to US-only configs)
18:19 tadzik ÷
18:19 tadzik indeed!
18:21 daxim my favourite lightning talk is about input methods.  on one slide I show the quadruple assignment of each key in X.org/xkb
18:21 doy it's also compose - :
18:21 doy ÷
18:21 daxim proper typographic quotation characters are available on the last row
18:22 * tadzik discovers ≈
18:22 daxim »«„“”‚‘’›‹
18:23 daxim compose is of course the killer feature (doy++), that's what the talk is actually about
18:24 Cactapus Question, if I have no prior experience with perl 5 or 6, and am interested in picking them both up, would it be more worthwhile for me to plan a small project to wet my feet, or jump right into reading documentation, bug reports, and deigns plans and looking for places where I can contribute to the community?
18:24 daxim nothing beats practice, i.e. reading and writing code
18:25 sorear a project is necessary.
18:25 Cactapus I imagine looking for the source of bugs would give me a good understanding of the languages
18:25 moritz well, much of the compilers are written in Perl 6
18:25 sorear 「there are lots of nice quotes around U+3000」
18:25 moritz so you need an understanding of the language to get an understanding of the language that way :-)
18:26 tadzik I usually find reading a short book or two a nice solution for the bootstraping problem
18:26 sorear meh, perl 6 is an algol descendant, all algol descendants are the same
18:27 moritz that's also an approach to the bootstrapping problem :-)
18:27 sorear now, J, *that* you have to learn before you can read it
18:27 Cactapus Any recomendations on literature? For a project I was planning on fooling around with protein structure databases
18:27 sorear woah, a bioperl person?  we need one of those here!
18:27 flussence error messages can teach you a lot, go cause a few of those :)
18:27 moritz Cactapus: "Using Perl 6". And hang around here, and ask questions
18:27 sorear welcome, Cactapus
18:28 flussence (perl5 also has 'use diagnostics;' which turns errors into multi-paragraph explanations)
18:28 Cactapus I only know about bioperl, and want to make use of it; I wouldn't call myself a bioperl person just yet
18:29 Cactapus And thanks for the welcome
18:31 tadzik flussence: it'd be a nice thing to have in PErl 6
18:31 tadzik should be quite doable now that we have proper exceptions
18:32 Cactapus I already downloaded 'Using Pearl 6' but I don't have my usb cable with me to throw the portable version onto my reader =\
18:32 tadzik oh, I did create a .mobi version once, if you're interested
18:33 havenn joined #perl6
18:33 Cactapus The .mobi is already up there
18:33 Cactapus On github
18:33 tadzik ok, cool
18:34 tadzik it has a plenty of downloads too, I can see
18:34 sorear you could... use a PC pdf reader?
18:35 tadzik I can imagine how one owning  proper reader would not like to read anything from a PC screen
18:35 Cactapus Yeah, I could; but the thought of reading off a screen with my contacts is making me lean to finishing up some work then going outside and enjoying the weather instead heh
18:35 Cactapus contacts in*
18:36 Cactapus I'll just download it when I get home for future commutes
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18:37 flussence .oO( if it's the future, why is my desktop screen the same dpi it was 15 years ago? )
18:38 Cactapus Because of the current technological limits on the size of light emitting technology?
18:39 Cactapus Well more like economical and practical
18:39 Cactapus economic*
18:40 flussence I guess. Maybe now that DACs are falling out of use on video cards they'll start moving forward again...
18:40 Cactapus Speaking of impractical things with a niche market, I caught myself fanasizing about having a laptop marketed towards coders who want to work outside
18:41 Cactapus It would have a fairly minimal specs, with almost no graphics power, but decent RAM and a good number of small, efficient cores for multithreading
18:42 Cactapus The screen would be e ink and have a horrible refresh rate
18:42 Cactapus But the battery would last weeks of constant use
18:42 Su-Shee yeah that's totally the way to go for web developers, gui developers etc.. ;)
18:42 benabik e ink sounds like it would be horrible for typing.  type-type-type, wait... type-type, wait...
18:43 Cactapus You don't touch type?
18:43 benabik A screen from Pixel Qi would work.
18:43 flussence benabik: I've used desktops that run like that, so at least I'll have some practice :)
18:43 benabik I do touch type...  I watch what appears on the screen instead of my fingers.
18:43 Cactapus True
18:43 sorear "horrible refresh rate" usually means >1ms
18:43 Cactapus Would take some getting used to, but I can get by with looking at my fingers
18:44 Cactapus This refresh rate would be more like 500ms lol
18:44 tadzik yeah
18:44 Cactapus When I said horrible, I meant it
18:44 sorear I'm ircing on a VPS 3000mi away with remote echo ssh
18:45 benabik That's why I mentioned Pixel Qi.  It's pretty low power and effective in sun and indoors.
18:45 Cactapus Sounds like an exercise in frustration
18:46 Cactapus Yeah, it's the Qi looks interesting; good call
18:46 Cactapus the*
18:46 sorear Cactapus: it's less frustrating than putting up with being disconnected every few hours by Cox
18:47 sorear which has recently run an ad campaign claiming to be the best in the USA - if true, I'm leaving the country ASAP
18:48 Cactapus sorear: That's funny, taking an ad campain to be the truth :P
18:48 tadzik hah
18:48 sorear *if* true
18:48 Cactapus Caught the 'if', just wanted to make my joke
18:49 tadzik that still sounds a bit like "if I had meteor storms in Poland I'll move someplace else", given my experiences with ISPs vs their ads :)
18:50 Cactapus So does anyone have experience owning something from Pixel Qi?
18:50 sorear Not I.
18:52 doy http://blog.fsck.com/2010/07/pixel-qi.html
18:56 Cactapus Hmm $200 for the 10.1" screen. I was looking to pickup a netbook to code on, and this would be perfect
18:56 Cactapus Now I just need to read reviews of netbooks to find something that suits my needs
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19:02 sorear o/ fglock
19:03 fglock sorear: o/
19:04 shinobicl The HP Mini is not the most cheap netbook but the keyboard is very comfortable
19:05 shinobicl the most comfortable of all the netbooks i've used
19:08 ksi joined #perl6
19:09 doy i'm a big fan of my samsung nb30 (which supposedly works great with the pixel qi screen), but i don't think they make them anymore
19:15 snearch joined #perl6
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19:18 Cactapus I'm looking for something with a good keyboard, battery life; netbooks all come with practically the same proccessors nowadays don't this? How easy are ram and disk drives to replace on netbooks? Never owned one
19:19 flussence I've got an old Asus, it just uses a standard 2.5" SATA drive. RAM is probably standard too but I haven't messed with it
19:20 Cactapus I was thinking of throwing on a low capacity SSD on it, since I won't use it for anything but coding and the net
19:21 Cactapus I think a hybrid drive would be pointless, since it would be slightly slower than a solo SSD and give me more capacity than I would need
19:22 flussence this one gets about 4h with an SSD, but it's one of the original Atoms with the crap power-hungry chipset. I guess the tech's improved a lot since then...
19:22 Cactapus Yikes, I hope so
19:23 flussence (I think the numbers were something like 2W for the CPU, 10 for the northbridge chip...)
19:24 Cactapus I'm not familiar with the ballpark for atom size CPU power draws, nor the capacity of their batteries
19:29 havenn joined #perl6
19:30 benabik The Makezine Pixel Qi forum is saying 13-14 hours with the Samsung N210/N220.  Wish I had a spare few hundred dollars to put one together.
19:34 Cactapus Been saving up for a laptop replacement, and I don't see the need for a full sized laptop so I'm in a position to spend well on a quality netbook.
19:35 Cactapus 13 hours is impressive
19:35 doy i get ~16 hours on my thinkpad x220
19:35 doy it's a bit more expensive than a netbook though
19:35 doy (:
19:36 benabik A bit bigger too, which helps with battery life.
19:36 Su-Shee doy: seriously 16 hours? I'm sold.
19:37 doy Su-Shee: if you don't run x, turn off the wifi, dim the screen, and don't use the processor too much, it gets around 20
19:37 havenn joined #perl6
19:37 doy i'm a pretty huge fan
19:38 Su-Shee doy: I sleep 8 of 24 hours. I really really don't need more than 16 hours :)
19:38 doy (:
19:38 Cactapus How's the screen look outdoors?
19:39 Cactapus ~1300 for a laptop with a decent sized SSD, proccessor and a battery like that is pretty reasonable
19:39 Su-Shee doy: x220 - what kind of graphic's chip?
19:39 doy haven't actually tried using it outdoors yet, but it's a fairly nice lcd that gets pretty bright
19:39 doy so i imagine it'd be at least usable
19:40 doy 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 2nd Generation Core Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 09)
19:40 Su-Shee I don't care for the price, I buy a new notebook because they're getting too old and slow and not upgradable anymore every 5 years or so...
19:41 Cactapus Don't care about the price, or don't care for the price?
19:41 Su-Shee about probably. ;)
19:46 Cactapus Hmm it gives you the option of 2 different AC adaptors, don't think I've seen a battery that can be charged at different watt ratings before
19:46 Cactapus Guess it charges faster at 90 than 65
19:47 * japhb sees Basic Computer Games in the backlog ...
19:47 Cactapus (says both are for North, or Latin American outlets)
19:47 japhb Man it's cool to see those scanned in -- I actually have both BCG and MBCG on my shelf.  :-)
19:47 doy yeah
19:48 doy it's really not incredibly worth it, it charges plenty fast at 65
19:49 havenn joined #perl6
19:50 Cactapus The difference in price is $0 so I'd say it could be worth it =P Also I've never used mobile broadband before, I'm guessing you need a subscription to the service from a provider?
19:50 doy yeah
19:52 doy (and the difference in size/weight between the 65W and 90W power supply is non-negligible, which is something to keep in mind)
19:52 Cactapus This is true, I hate bulky adaptors
19:53 Cactapus Is there anything horribly wrong with the default wifi adaptor? I can't imagine a reason to want to pay more for something that offers the same features and functionality
19:55 Su-Shee probably the range/frequency wether you can use it internationally?
19:57 doy yeah, i have no idea
20:05 Cactapus Hmm quite the investment, but having a quiality laptop with that much battery life... tempting
20:06 libertyprime joined #perl6
20:11 * masak comes into focus
20:14 masak frettled: haven't thought as far ahead as the hackathon yet... but since I won't have to give a talk, I'll probably be less procrastinational and more available than usual. :)
20:14 fgomez joined #perl6
20:14 masak I second moritz++' predilection to be available for whatever the group decides on.
20:16 masak Cactapus: also, hi. welcome.
20:17 frettled masak++, moritz++ - very good :)
20:17 masak is a "Cactapus" a really thorny octopus, or a many-limbed cactus? :)
20:17 flussence a hedgehog that goes meow
20:18 Cactapus The former; imagine a green, thick-limbed octupus with thorns instead of suckers
20:20 masak and yet, we won't hesitate to hug you.
20:20 masak that's how crazy we are here.
20:21 Cactapus Well, a warm welcome is always appreciated; so long as a path to the nearest exit remains unobstructed
20:21 masak we even believe in multiple exits.
20:22 geekosaur there is more than one way to escape it?
20:22 masak sub fac($n) { return 1 if $n < 2; return $n * fac $n - 1 } # two exits
20:23 Cactapus Instead of releasing a cloud of ink, like it's ocean dwelling cousin, the cactapus fills the air with a sense of existential dread when provoked. This often confuses the would-be pursuer long enough for a hasty escape
20:23 masak convenient.
20:23 Cactapus It's an evolved response to stress
20:24 masak but what if we're immune to existential dread? like, have you ever sustained years of hearing "so, when is Perl 6 gonna be released?" :)
20:25 gfldex then one could become a Cactapus-hunter
20:25 masak oh no don't hurt our new cactapus
20:25 gfldex that's rather unlikely tho
20:25 lichtkind joined #perl6
20:26 masak lichtkind! \o/
20:27 tadzik oh, a Teeworlds player
20:28 masak Teeworlds players are never alone. :)
20:30 Cactapus Well one could always hunt me and try to find a buyer, but how would you ever be able to negotiate a deal where both parties end up satisfied when you know that it's impossible to understand another human being on a fundemental, absolute, level?
20:30 Cactapus Easier just to drink your troubles away and forget the idea.
20:30 thou joined #perl6
20:30 masak I think this is the beginning of a long Cactapus-#perl6 friendship :)
20:31 gfldex we have yet to face a human immune to existential dread
20:31 masak Cactapus: somehow you remind me of lue, an irregular regular here :)
20:31 nn joined #perl6
20:31 gfldex imagine you just woke up in a hotel room while you think to be at home
20:31 masak nn: oh hai
20:31 flussence perl6: module A { sub I is export { say 1 }; }; module C { use A :EXPORT; }; module B { use C; }; B::I(); # one-line version of the problem I had earlier: how can I get from A to B? The less hacks the better :)
20:31 sjn \o/
20:32 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤'use' with arguments NYI at /tmp/UuduR5wUiZ line 1:â�¤------> [32mt { say 1 }; }; module C { use A :EXPORT[33mâ��[31m; }; module B { use C; }; B::I(); # one-[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Unable to locate module C in @pathâ�¤  at /h…
20:32 p6eval ..rakudo 704a21: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤arglist case of use not yet implemented. Sorry. ␤at /tmp/aAx2ncIuHg:1␤»
20:32 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«pugs: *** No such subroutine: "&require_A"␤    at /tmp/Z0AD37YBXY line 1, column 1␤»
20:32 masak oh, a disguised sjn ;)
20:32 gfldex the brief moment when you realise the bathroom door is in the wrong spot is a bit like existential dread
20:32 masak gfldex: no, that's "disorientation" :)
20:32 gfldex that's the point
20:32 gfldex how can you hunt anything while being disorientated?
20:33 masak I dunno, I usually go to the store and buy pre-hunted.
20:34 Cactapus Is lue as dashingly good-looking as I? If so then I can see the resemblance to this hypothetical person.
20:34 Cactapus And yes, that moment where you realize you have to play detective for the next few hours is often quite worrying
20:41 masak I haven't met lue in person, but I picture him more-than-average dashing, in a cape and a cowboy hat, riding a humpback whale into the sunset.
20:42 masak he's the one among us who makes sure the rest of us are up-to-date on Dr Who and Death Stars.
20:44 Cactapus Sounds pretty par-for-course on IRC to be honest
20:45 Cactapus Interesting imagrey though
20:45 masak we're not a par-for-course channel.
20:46 Cactapus How so? In that stuff actually gets done here =P?
20:46 masak partly that.
20:46 masak but *cough* jnthn is on vacation right now *cough*
20:46 masak evalbot rebuild army of highly trained ninja bots
20:47 lichtkind masak: hai
20:47 masak heh, teasing p6eval stopped working? :)
20:47 masak evalbot rebuild nom
20:47 p6eval OK (started asynchronously)
20:47 dalek Rebuild of nom complete.
20:47 masak seemingly.
20:48 lichtkind masak: i now really do work daily on tablets
20:48 benabik Someone tightened the rebuild regex recently.
20:48 masak spoilsports. :)
20:48 benabik It's still odd that two different bots give the status of the rebuild.
20:48 benabik ...  Also, it rebuilt nom really quickly
20:48 masak yeah, that's eerie.
20:49 masak benabik: if it was just an empty pull and a null make, it could actually be correct.
20:49 Cactapus They're conspiring
20:49 benabik masak: True.
20:49 NamelessTee joined #perl6
20:49 masak phenny: en zh "are you bots conspiring against us humans?"?
20:49 phenny masak: "你是机器人对我们人类的阴谋吗?" (en to zh, translate.google.com)
20:51 masak Cactapus: so, have you written any Perl 6 yet?
20:52 Cactapus Yeah, actually I built a perl6 to C++ interpreter in the 2 hours I've been here
20:52 masak from scratch, or the one that already exists? :)
20:52 Cactapus Na,NaNa, I'm slowly working through some comp theory exercises; life of a lowly undergrad
20:52 masak ooh CS undergrad!
20:54 Cactapus Yep, good times
20:54 tadzik not bad indeed :)
20:54 colomon I was going to say "I remember those days," but on reflection, I'm not sure I do.  That was a long time ago for me...
20:55 Cactapus You can remember the gist of those times
20:56 Cactapus Also for the record, the reason I'm interested in bioperl is because I'm in bioinformatics
20:56 benabik Gist didn't exist in those times for me.  :-D
20:56 Cactapus I couldn't decide between biochem and comp sci, so I did the reasonable thing and took both
20:56 masak Cactapus: I'm an almost-graduated bioinformatician.
20:57 Cactapus Awesome, undragrad, or grad school?
20:57 Cactapus undergrad*
20:57 masak undergrad. I'm something like three exams away from my degree.
20:58 Cactapus I'm just finishing up my second year come april
20:58 masak nice.
20:58 Cactapus You got grad school plans, or work/other lined up?
20:59 Cactapus I don't think I'm set on staying in acadamia past this degree tbh
21:00 masak I already got sucked away into a career. so there is some doubt whether I'll actually get to those last few exams.
21:00 masak not working with anything bioinformatics-y, fwiw. but still very nice $dayjob.
21:02 Cactapus Can't negotiate with your boss to keep things slow until you get your degree? Would be a shame to miss out after all that effort. Any advice on getting sucked up in a career out of undergrad?
21:03 masak well, I'll try to sneak in a bit of coursework -- it's just that I know it'll be non-trivial to make things work out.
21:04 lichtkind hej we have fresh meat :)
21:04 tadzik being a working undergrad I only can give you un-advice ;)
21:04 lichtkind tadzik: sheersa
21:04 tadzik heyo lichtkind
21:04 benabik tadzik: "Don't do what I did"?
21:04 masak the advice, obviously, would be to do the graduation first, and the career later. :)
21:04 masak doing what tadzik does (and what I did, too) -- working while doing studies -- is perfectly fine.
21:05 tadzik benabik: no, I'm quite happy with the situation
21:05 tadzik fwiw I'm working only part-time and I do hope to finish my studies without slips
21:23 Cactapus Oh right, THAT's what my body is bugging me about; a lack of sustenance
21:23 Cactapus Off to get some food before my 3 hours comp orginization lecture B-)
21:23 Cactapus Who's ready to learn about cpu architecture? I am!
21:26 masak come back soon!
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21:47 japhb OK, after going off and looping in the off moments of a couple days doing profile/analyze/micro-optimize, I have a few conclusions: 1. It's not too hard to cut a percent or two out of the time for 'panda list'. 2. After that, it gets WAY harder to find low-hanging fruit just from profile data. 3. Rakudo spends a lot of effort on laziness.  4. Some way to fast-path non-lazy lists (especially smallish ones) would make a massive difference to
21:47 japhb overall runtime.
21:52 japhb BTW, #3 above (effort spent on laziness) comes in a startling variety of forms.
21:55 japhb Oh, and #5: A surprising amount of profile time for some simple multi-methods goes to the proto.  I'm not sure where to look to see where that time actually goes.
21:56 masak optimizing away laziness where it isn't used anyway sounds like something that needs doing, yes.
21:56 lichtkind is the maybe block modifier gone?
22:01 masak the what? 'maybe block modifier'?
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22:08 lichtkind there was a time it existed
22:09 lichtkind i took it from synopses
22:09 lichtkind but didnt found any traces now
22:09 lichtkind so i delete it
22:15 lichtkind already 5th item i loose
22:15 lichtkind so i never get 1000
22:16 icwiener joined #perl6
22:20 masak lichtkind: `git log | grep maybe` gives three hits, neither of which is a block modifier.
22:21 masak but I confess to being intrigued -- let me know if you find that it actually existed in the synopses at some point.
22:23 lichtkind it surely was so but i started in 2005 or so
22:23 benabik I find an old old reference to it in cd15db8 "Perl6::Spec::Concurrency: Update nomenclature."
22:24 lichtkind i dont even know when i wrote this
22:24 benabik "The C<maybe> statement causes a checkpoint to be made for C<defer> for each block in the C<maybe> chain, creating an alternate execution path to be followed when a C<defer> is done."
22:24 masak oh.
22:24 lichtkind benabik: but its no longer in repo?
22:25 benabik lichtkind: I don't think so.
22:25 masak well, consider those bits to have been never more than liquidly spec'd.
22:25 lichtkind thanks, but i already deleted
22:25 masak those were probably part of the Pugs concurrency plans.
22:25 benabik I think so.
22:25 FACEFOX joined #perl6
22:27 benabik Actually, it's still in the spec..
22:27 lichtkind http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_index_tablet
22:27 benabik S17:365
22:28 lichtkind defer i have also in
22:28 lichtkind as long its not implemented i dont worry
22:29 lichtkind i never thought it would be soo much work :)
22:32 masak oh wow, liz helped write S17? cool!
22:32 masak hey, maybe is still in S17! :)
22:32 masak (and defer, too)
22:33 benabik I think it just hasn't been modified since the commit I found.
22:34 benabik `git log -S` is your friend
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22:55 masak ah, yes.
22:55 masak 'night, #perl6
23:01 lichtkind good night
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