Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-03-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:13 pernatiy joined #perl6
00:20 cbk1090 tadzik, Thank you for your advise the other night regarding modules.  I looked at the Acme::Meow module and figured it out.  My example wasn't working due to the missing :: thingy I just had one word for the name of the class.
00:20 cbk1090 tadzik++
00:21 timotimo exceptions and failure are bad, why not Maybe? :)
00:22 cogno joined #perl6
00:28 shinobicl___ hi... how can i know if an object has some attribute?
00:28 shinobicl___ rakudo: my $var = Date.new('2011-11-11'); say $var.^attributes;
00:28 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«$!year $!month $!day $!daycount␤»
00:29 shinobicl___ rakudo: my $var = Date.new('2011-11-11'); say $var.^attributes; my $attrs = $var.^attributes;
00:29 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«$!year $!month $!day $!daycount␤»
00:30 shinobicl___ rakudo: my $var = Date.new('2011-11-11'); say $var.^attributes; my $attrs = $var.^attributes; say "ok" if '$!year' ~~ $attrs;
00:30 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«$!year $!month $!day $!daycount␤»
00:32 shinobicl___ rakudo: my $var = Date.new('2011-11-11'); say $var.^attributes; my $attrs = $var.^attributes; say "ok" if '$!year' eq any($attrs.list);
00:32 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«$!year $!month $!day $!daycount␤ok␤»
00:32 shinobicl___ well.. that wasn't hard :)
00:36 localhost joined #perl6
00:37 shinobicl___ rakudo: class A { has $.dot }; my A $a .= new; say $a.^attributes.list;
00:37 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«$!dot␤»
00:38 shinobicl___ if i declared the attribute with a dot, why is shown as "$!dot"  ?
00:39 geekosaur because $!foo is the actual attribute
00:40 geekosaur $.foo is an accessor for the attribute
00:40 geekosaur (think of it as perl automatically defining an accessor method for you)
00:41 sorear timotimo: ultimately the problem is with the lifting.
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00:42 sorear Maybe's structure as an applicative functor allows "stupid" operations like + to be lifted, but helps not at all with other stuff
00:42 * timotimo has not done enough haskell to know how to understand that :\
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00:52 shinobicl___ geekosaur: then, is there a way to show it as "$.dot"?
00:52 sporous joined #perl6
00:52 shinobicl___ not that i need to, is enough for me to see if it exists.
00:55 shinobicl___ i'm just curious to see if there an alternative to ^attributes.
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01:21 geekosaur shinobicl___, since it's an accessor, it should be in the methids
01:21 geekosaur rakudo: class A { has $.dot }; my A $a .= new; say $a.^methods.list;
01:21 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«dot␤»
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01:22 geekosaur ...but not with the dot, ok.  you probably should not expect to see the $.foo form
01:22 geekosaur since it's kinda a macro
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01:42 shinobicl___ thanks geekosaur
01:42 shinobicl___ good night all! and bye
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02:34 colomon continued fractions experiments now have handled basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division!
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02:48 sorear colomon: are you doing finite or infinite CFs?
02:48 colomon finite so far
02:48 colomon was just looking at HAKMEM to see if they had a decent CF to test
02:48 colomon *infinite CF
02:49 colomon sqrt 2 = 0; 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2... ?
02:50 colomon ah, 1; 2 2 2 2 2
02:50 colomon duh
02:53 sorear e is also pretty cool
02:54 colomon ah, yes
02:54 sorear one of the few non-contrived trancedental numbers with a "nice" representation as a normal CF
02:55 sorear I'm a little bit concerned about the focus on normality though
02:56 colomon eh?
02:56 sorear because discontinuous functions of real numbers are non-computable in all the real number models I've seen
02:56 sorear if you insist that the first term be equal to the floor of the number, then you're requiring discontinuity in the normalizer
02:56 colomon ah
02:57 colomon this is the sqrt(2) * sqrt(2) problem, more or less?
02:57 colomon oooo, should add a first test for that
02:57 sorear I haven't heard of that problem under that name
02:58 colomon well, I just made up the name
02:58 sorear but in general you can construct \sum_{i = 0}^\inf (turing machine M halts in i steps ? 1 : 0) * 2^{-i}
02:59 colomon but the issue (as I understand it) is that you can never actually figure out the first digit of sqrt(2) * sqrt(2)
02:59 colomon the floor, I mean.
02:59 sorear in any real number system that supports infinite sums, finding the first digit of a number is equivalent to the halting problem
02:59 colomon I've actually been pondering work arounds
02:59 sorear the standard workaround is to allow a small amount of inaccuracy
03:00 sorear you print the number to N digits, allowing the printed value to differ from the real value by up to 10^-N
03:00 sorear so maybe 1.99999999, maybe 2.00000000
03:00 sorear if you allow multivalueness, the undecidability goes away
03:01 colomon each step makes the possible interval get smaller, eh?  hmm.
03:02 benabik Multivalueness?
03:02 colomon btw, sqrt(2) + 1/2 works to ten values
03:03 sorear benabik: fuzzy_positive_negative(0, 1e-9) is allowed to return 1 or -1
03:03 sorear benabik: and it does NOT respect logical identity on the reals
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03:07 colomon n: say 1, 2, 2 ... *
03:08 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
03:08 colomon n: say (1, 2, 2 ... *)[^10]
03:08 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2␤»
03:15 colomon n: say (2, 1, 2, 1, -> $a, $b, $c { 1, $b + 2, 1 } ... *)[^20]
03:15 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/_e6T6t_RdL line 1:â�¤------> [32msay (2, 1, 2, 1, -> [33mâ��[31m$a, $b, $c { 1, $b + 2, 1 } ... *)[^20][0mâ�¤  $c is declared but not used at /tmp/_e6T6t_RdL line 1:â�¤------> [32msay (2, 1, 2, 1, -…
03:16 colomon n: say (2, 1, 2, 1, -> $, $b, $ { 1, $b + 2, 1 } ... *)[^20]
03:16 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«2 1 2 1 1 4 1 1 3 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 5 1␤»
03:16 colomon r: say (2, 1, 2, 1, -> $, $b, $ { 1, $b + 2, 1 } ... *)[^20]
03:16 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«2 1 2 1 1 4 1 1 6 1 1 8 1 1 10 1 1 12 1 1 14 1 1 16 1 1 18 1 1 20 1 1 22 1 1 24 1 1 26 1 1 28 1 1 30 1 1 32 1 1 34 1␤»
03:17 colomon n: say (2, (2, 4 ... *).map({ 1, $_, 1 }))[^10]
03:17 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
03:18 colomon ?
03:18 colomon n: say (2, 4 ... *).map({ 1, $_, 1 })[^10]
03:18 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1 2 1 1 4 1 1 6 1 1 8 1 1 10 1 1 12 1 1 14 1 1 16 1 1 18 1 1 20 1␤»
03:18 colomon n: say (2, 4 ... *).map({ 1, $_, 1 }).flat[^10]
03:19 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1 2 1 1 4 1 1 6 1 1␤»
03:19 colomon n: say (2, 4 ... *).map({ 1, $_, 1 }).flat[^20]
03:19 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1 2 1 1 4 1 1 6 1 1 8 1 1 10 1 1 12 1 1 14␤»
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05:11 moritz good morning
05:12 moritz n: multi sub infix:<:::>($a, $b, $c) is assoc<list> { say "from $a to $b in steps of $c" }; 1 ::: 10 ::: 2
05:12 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Rebuild in progress␤»
05:12 japhb phenny, tell masak You mentioned earlier a new stretch goal for Perl 6 implementations.  Here's one that's near and dear to my heart: At least one Perl 6 implementation that is no more than 10x slower than Perl 5 at any task both can reasonably do.  (That last part is to allow for e.g. things that are easy in Perl 6 but an insane pain in Perl 5, or conversely handling some bit of native integration that Perl 6 implementations don't yet sup
05:12 phenny japhb: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
05:12 japhb port.)
05:12 moritz n: multi sub infix:<:::>($a, $b, $c) is assoc<list> { say "from $a to $b in steps of $c" }; 1 ::: 10 ::: 2
05:12 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot call &infix:<:::>; none of these signatures match:␤    Any, Any, Any␤  at /tmp/54eQvURtLz line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 …
05:13 japhb I guess that should be perl5, but I think the intent is clear ....
05:15 shinobicl___ r: my %h; %h<a>=(b => 99); say %h.perl; say %h<a><b>'
05:15 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/STH5y3FgcF:1␤»
05:15 shinobicl___ r: my %h; %h<a>=(b => 99); say %h.perl; say %h<a><b>
05:15 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("a" => "b" => 99).hash␤99␤»
05:16 shinobicl___ is there a faster way to create %h<a><b> ?
05:16 shinobicl___ i mean, shorter, not faster
05:17 moritz r: my %h = a => b => 99; say %h.perl
05:17 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("a" => "b" => 99).hash␤»
05:17 moritz r: my %h = a => b => 99; say %h<a>.perl
05:17 sorear japhb: hey, I just haved to bolt a fast parser to niecza
05:17 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«"b" => 99␤»
05:17 sorear n: my %h; %h<a><b> = 99; say %h.perl
05:17 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«{"a" => {"b" => 99}}.hash␤»
05:17 moritz r: my %h = a => {b => 99}; say %h<a>.perl
05:17 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«{"b" => 99}␤»
05:17 sorear n: my %h; %h{'a';'b'} = 99; say %h.perl
05:17 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«{"a" => {"b" => 99}}.hash␤»
05:18 japhb n: my %h; %h<a><b> = 99; say %h.perl;
05:18 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«{"a" => {"b" => 99}}.hash␤»
05:18 japhb It's just a Rakudo limitation, shinobicl___
05:18 sorear r: my %h; %h<a><b> = 99; say %h.perl
05:18 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Method 'at_key' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in method postcircumfix:<{ }> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1184␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Mq2K58CP32:1␤␤»
05:19 japhb sorear, seriously?  With a faster parser you'd be there?  You're even compiling grammars to be as fast as perl5 regexen?
05:19 shinobicl___ oh, ok
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05:20 japhb s/as fast as/nearly as fast as/
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06:02 sorear japhb: I haven't done comparative benchmarking for regexen; I suspect it will be slower there, especially for very simple regexes
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06:02 moritz most p6 regex engines are optimized for the grammar use case, not for regexes
06:02 sorear exactly
06:03 sorear generally speaking I find that basic niecza features (hashes, arithmetic) tend to peak at about 5-20x slower than perl5 after an optimization focus
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06:04 sorear arrays are slower than you'd think because of laziness and perl 6's difficult-to-implement-well autoviv model
06:04 moritz do you do compile time multi dispatch and such fun yet?
06:04 sorear junctions, otoh, really suprised me with how fast they are
06:04 sorear no
06:06 sorear I kind of reneged on the optimization thing; niecza puts a lot of effort on being fast in the worst case
06:06 sorear my least favorite features of Perl 6 are the ones that have to pay for whether you use them or not, like gather/take
06:07 sorear s/that <()> have/you/
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06:23 moritz std: / <( <( /
06:23 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
06:27 sorear maybe ought to warn, but certainly not fail
06:27 sorear it's a dead store, $from = $/.pos ; $from = $/.pos ;
06:28 sorear I think we allow [ ab <( c | d <( ef ]
06:28 moritz n: / <( /
06:28 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89:  ( no output )
06:29 sorear n: say ~( $_ ~~ / ab <( c | d <( ef /) for <abc def>
06:29 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«c␤ef␤»
06:32 moritz <( seems easy enough to do
06:32 moritz not sure about )>
06:33 moritz it seems it requires additional storage (a $!to in addition to $!pos)
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06:58 sorear iirc in niecza <( and )> are implemented by pushing psuedo-captures
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09:22 masak morning, #perl6
09:22 phenny masak: 05:12Z <japhb> tell masak You mentioned earlier a new stretch goal for Perl 6 implementations.  Here's one that's near and dear to my heart: At least one Perl 6 implementation that is no more than 10x slower than Perl 5 at any task both can reasonably do.  (That last part is to allow for e.g. things that are easy in Perl 6 but an insane pain in Perl 5, or conversely handling some bit of native integration that Perl 6 implementations don't yet sup
09:22 * masak backlogs to get the rest :)
09:23 masak geekosaur: $.foo is not a macro :)
09:23 moritz \o masak
09:23 tadzik hello #perl6
09:23 masak tadzik: sup, tadziku.
09:25 preflex_ joined #perl6
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09:28 tadzik not bad, dayjobbing atm. How about you?
09:31 masak also dayjobbing :)
09:32 masak and also not bad.
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10:25 * [Coke] yawns
10:26 masak good [morning], Coke.
10:27 tadzik hello [Coke]
10:27 tadzik [Coke] yawns? Coke is supposed to be caffeinated...
10:32 [Coke] sick.jetlagged
10:33 moritz :(
10:33 moritz [Coke]: get well soon!
10:40 kaleem joined #perl6
10:40 masak that explains why you're up at this hour.
10:45 * [Coke] is in leeds. been up for 4-5 hours
10:51 * moritz recommends reading the commit messages on https://github.com/diiq/Tainted-Oyster/commits/master?page=4 in chronologic order
10:59 arnsholt That's... odd =)
10:59 au quite Poe-tic, though.
11:00 masak I read the first few. can't determine whether I find them amusing or disturbing.
11:02 tadzik oh joy :)
11:02 masak no, I've decided I like it. :)
11:02 masak the project description is "I feel an indescribable ecstasy and delirium in melting; (what salutes of cannon and small arms!)"
11:04 masak reminds me of the book dedication in "Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson": (loosely, from memory) "this book is dedicated to: a little snow in summer -- and Mazda, the car for people who can hear"
11:08 felher What would i use instead of NULL in Perl6, if i have a typed variable (my Str $x)?
11:08 felher $x = Str?
11:09 felher (to tell it is undefined)
11:10 masak take a step back. what problem are you trying to solve?
11:11 felher Tell that some container doesn't point to a value. Like NULL in C/C++, null in Java.
11:12 masak take more steps back. what programming task was it that led you to the thought of undefined/NULL/null values?
11:13 felher Some kind of linked list, to mark its end. (And i didn't want to create a special end-class/object)
11:13 masak ah.
11:13 masak then yes, a type object like Str will do just fine.
11:14 felher \o/ :)
11:14 felher masak: thnx :)
11:14 masak 'undef' in Perl 5 corresponds to type objects in Perl 6.
11:14 masak one for each type.
11:17 masak if you're in a situation where you don't know how the container is typed, and you want to assign that container's type object to it, you can assign nil.
11:17 Vespakoen left #perl6
11:17 masak p6: my Str $s = "OH HAI"; $s = Nil; say $s
11:17 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$s'; expected 'Str' but got 'Nil'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/2EWyRnXHAg:1␤␤»
11:17 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Nil"␤    at /tmp/KGM8yvs_gn line 1, column 23-31␤»
11:17 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
11:18 * masak submits rakudobug
11:19 au p6: my Str $x; VAR($x).WHAT
11:19 felher masak++ #bug-report-bot <- this should be 53 time, right? :)
11:19 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&VAR' called (line 1)␤»
11:19 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared name:â�¤ 'VAR' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 33) â�¤  at /home/p6e…
11:19 p6eval ..pugs:  ( no output )
11:19 au p6: my Str $x; $x.VAR.WHAT.say
11:19 p6eval rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Scalar()␤»
11:19 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Str␤»
11:24 masak japhb: yes. stretch goal. we need it. we need to declare a goal, and then work towards it, with statistics and real-world use cases and stuff.
11:24 masak something ridiculously quantifiable.
11:30 felher perl6: my Str sub a() { return "xxx" }; a().WHAT.say
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11:30 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot unbox a String from an object of repr P6opaque␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (Str.say @ 1) ␤  at /tmp/ZjiQsJstBO line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home…
11:30 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Str␤»
11:30 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
11:30 pmurias fglock: hi
11:31 pmurias fglock: i'm trying to add support for multiple heredocs in one line
11:31 felher perl6: my Str sub a() { return 777 }; a().WHAT.say
11:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Int␤»
11:31 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
11:31 pmurias fglock: but the assigment for the first placeholder seems to have no effect
11:31 pmurias fglock: do we clone the ast somewhere?
11:32 felher Specifying return value of a function is NYI?
11:33 havenn joined #perl6
11:33 masak I'm not sure that's how you'd do it.
11:34 pmurias perl6: $a=55;say $a ~~ Int;
11:34 masak maybe it is, and my memory is fuzzy.
11:34 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "="␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "$a" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/HIE36lVzlP line 1, column 3␤»
11:34 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $a is not declared␤at /tmp/lHUzzdOpBB:1␤»
11:34 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/pjH_GMAupu line 1:�------> [32m<BOL>[33m�[31m$a=55;say $a ~~ Int;[0m��Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/pjH_GMAupu line 1:�------> [32m$a=55;say [33m�[31m$a ~~ Int;[0m��Unha…
11:34 pmurias perl6: my $a=55;say $a ~~ Int;
11:34 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:34 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«True␤»
11:36 felher masak: i think it is (S06-routines.pod:265)
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11:45 felher But what i really wanted to ask is: Will there be/is there a way to specify "this routine doesn't return anything", like 'void'?
11:50 pmurias std: sub foo($a -->) {...}
11:51 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤No type found after --> at /tmp/IXwS9NQJuP line 1:â�¤------> [32msub foo($a -->[33mâ��[31m) {...}[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤  constraintâ�¤     nameâ�¤   param_sepâ�¤      traitâ�¤  type_constraintâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:01 110mâ�¤Â»
11:57 benabik Is it possible to not return anything?  At best I think you can return Nil.
12:05 masak all functions return something, even if it's implicit.
12:06 masak if you want to make sure it doesn't return anything informative, it seems your best bet is to make it return Nil.
12:06 felher I know that they at least return their last expression.
12:07 felher But wouldn't it be nice to be able to specify something like that?
12:09 benabik r: sub foo() {}; foo().perl.say
12:09 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
12:10 felher I see your point in returning Nil. But i don't think it is the same as if the signature of a sub already tells that it won't return anything.
12:11 flussence p6: sub foo(--> Nil) { }
12:11 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "-->"␤    expecting formal parameter or ")"␤    at /tmp/UjLPPZH8Kq line 1, column 9␤»
12:11 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d:  ( no output )
12:11 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  &foo is declared but not used at /tmp/KASsvr9B9d line 1:â�¤------> [32msub foo[33mâ��[31m(--> Nil) { }[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
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12:12 flussence r: sub foo(--> Nil) { return 'something' }; say foo.perl
12:12 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«"something"␤»
12:12 flussence hm, that's not right.
12:13 flussence r: sub foo returns Nil { return 'something' }; say foo.perl
12:13 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value␤  in sub foo at /tmp/YmTUo4a8Q8:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/YmTUo4a8Q8:1␤␤»
12:13 flussence there you go
12:14 felher flussence: ah, nice. I thought Nil is something like Mu.
12:14 fglock pmurias: multiple heredocs were supported, I might have broken it (we don't clone the ast)
12:14 * felher really has to read what Nil is again :(
12:15 pmurias fglock: i'll recheck if the hack is nessary then
12:15 benabik r: say Nil.WHAT
12:15 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
12:15 fglock looking here too
12:17 fglock as long as there is something in the @Here_doc stack, there can be several in the same line
12:17 pmurias they are parsed
12:18 pmurias but something wrong happens when they are filled in
12:18 masak felher: Nil is not just "empty list", but "there isn't anything here". it's an undefined ().
12:18 fglock maybe the newline is being missed for some reason
12:18 masak felher: it's like Nil represents the absence not only of elements, but of a list to contain them as well.
12:18 benabik r: ().WHAT.say
12:18 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
12:18 pmurias fglock: look at the commit with the hack
12:18 fglock ok
12:18 benabik r: say () ~~ Nil
12:18 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«False␤»
12:18 pmurias fglock: if you turn placeholder2 into placeholder they break
12:20 pmurias fglock: they placeholder gets filled in but the ast seems to contain it's copy
12:20 flussence masak: and if I understand right, Mu means "nothing here yet" and Any means "this space intentionally left blank"? :)
12:20 felher masak: I see. So Nil and void really express the same thing. :) Awesome :)
12:20 pmurias fglock: with 3 heredocs only the first one is affected
12:21 benabik If you're used to functional programming, P6's Nil is what most FP calls Uni.
12:21 benabik *Unit
12:23 fglock I think I see a fencepost error in the double_quote section, maybe $m->{to} advanced 1 extra char
12:23 fglock testing
12:24 masak flussence: Any, to me, just means "default default", i.e. "this is the undefined value you get when you didn't specify a type".
12:25 masak felher: there are always irreconcilable differences in nuance across languages. but yes, sorta.
12:26 masak flussence: also, Mu, to me, means "outside-of-normal-type-hierarchy trickery going on! probably something involving junctions. here be dragons."
12:27 fglock pmurias: it seems to work, can you check?
12:27 fglock (pushed)
12:31 fglock test 20 pass; now looking at test 19
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12:34 fglock this is hard :P
12:34 fglock now it has an extra newline
12:39 masak flussence: s/involving junctions/involving junctions or metaclasses/
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12:43 pmurias fglock: any ideas why we need placeholder2?
12:46 fglock I don't think we need it anymore, my fix seems to work with or without the hack - not sure why it worked in the first place
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12:52 fglock aha, I think I found the second problem (extra newline)
12:53 pmurias fglock: your fix doesn't seem to make ok 12 appear
12:54 fglock ah, right - looking
12:54 pmurias fglock: the placeholder filling sub is called without the hack, but it's effect seems to disapper
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13:01 moritz http://lwn.net/Articles/485569/ # perl 5 release process, explained by Dave Rolsky. Also briefly mentions Perl 6
13:02 masak oh, right. he solicited feedback on that article here a while ago.
13:03 fglock pmurias: I'll test & commit my fixes, then look at test 12 (passes all until 20 now)
13:05 pmurias fglock: ok
13:06 pmurias fglock: do you pass test 5?
13:07 fglock actually no - I didn't notice
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13:09 masak TimToady: why does sink return () and not Nil?
13:09 moritz masak: the plan is to make Nil more Failure-like
13:09 moritz masak: so returning Nil would make sinking a sink die, or something
13:10 pmurias fglock: i'm fixing that
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13:11 masak I agree with the need to simplify/unify failure types, but I'm not sold on TimToady++'s first attempt at it.
13:12 masak short story, angels don't sing when I read about the proposed changes.
13:14 * moritz feels much the same
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13:18 masak they're big enough to be uprooting/destructive to various things, but I don't see the immediate benefit they would give, other than making Perl 6 typology... stranger and less mainstream.
13:20 benabik Failure is already outside the "mainstream" of language design by design.  I know of no other language that lets you handle exceptions as normal data, but then throws it if you try to use it.
13:22 pmurias benabik: it feels like the extensions of letting you handle the error value as normal data and the segfaulting it you try to ;)
13:23 benabik pmurias: That's not a bad description of it, although it's somewhat "nicer" than a segfault.
13:23 masak benabik: I do not buy the argument that because Perl 6 is 'already outside the "mainstream"', that it should amble further outside it for no particular good reason.
13:24 benabik masak: The feature in question is already outside the norms, so putting it outside the "normal" of Any makes sense.
13:25 masak aye. that part makes some sense to me.
13:25 masak but TimToady's proposal is on a grander scale than that.
13:25 masak here it is, for reference: https://gist.github.com/1828667
13:26 benabik Hm. I would disagree that Failure and Nil are the same thing.  Nil is no information, Failure is "something bad happened"
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13:27 moritz Nil is more like fail('Nothing to see here, move along')
13:28 benabik I suppose.  Then () would be how you spell unit again, I suppose.
13:28 masak there are some things in there that I buy outright. making fail/succeed a semantically matched pair makes me happy. I don't know if wiring things up so that fail still works in subs and succeed still works in whens would be trivial.
13:28 pmurias benabik: Perl6 is supposed to be much "nicer" than C
13:28 masak and then there's the question of what proceed does in a sub :)
13:29 benabik pmurias: Everything is supposed to be nicer than C.  The only thing less nice than C is assembler.  ;-)
13:29 shinobicl hi... another newbie question... What is "the gist"... and what is the .gist method for?
13:30 moritz shinobicl: &say calls .gist. .gist is supposed to return a human-readable summary of an object
13:30 masak benabik: not true. I discovered a language yesterday called ABAP, which is decidedly not nicer than C. it looks like someone wanted really dearly to reinvent COBOL.
13:30 masak shinobicl: "gist" in English means "a summary". github has a paste service (tied to git repositories) called gist.github.com
13:31 benabik masak: Okay, most things are supposed to be nicer than C.  Some things try to be as nice as C.  And some things just fail.
13:31 shinobicl oh, thanks!.. I thought it was an acronym.
13:31 benabik masak: C occupies the "one step above assembler" level in my head.  :-)
13:32 masak according to dictionary.com: [C18: from Anglo-French, as in cest action gist en  this action consists in, literally: lies in, from Old French gésir  to lie, from Latin jacēre,  from jacere  to throw]
13:38 * masak .oO( the die is gist )
13:38 masak phenny: eo en "gisto"?
13:38 phenny masak: "gisto" (eo to en, translate.google.com)
13:39 masak apparently not a common word in the corpora. means "yeast".
13:39 moritz phenny: "hefe"?
13:39 phenny moritz: "yeast" (de to en, translate.google.com)
13:41 masak phenny: "Mia kusenveturilo estas plena de angiloj."?
13:41 phenny masak: "My kusenveturilo is full of eels ." (eo to en, translate.google.com)
13:41 masak almost :)
13:42 moritz phenny: "Mein Luftkissenboot ist voller Aale"?
13:42 phenny moritz: "My hovercraft is full of eels" (de to en, translate.google.com)
13:42 [Coke] moritz++
13:42 masak phenny: "Min svävare är full av ålar."?
13:42 phenny masak: "My hovercraft is full of eels." (sv to en, translate.google.com)
13:42 moritz phenny: "svä"?
13:42 phenny moritz: "sulfur" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
13:42 moritz phenny: "vare"?
13:42 phenny moritz: "either" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
13:42 moritz erm
13:42 [Coke] phenny: "Моят кораб на въздушна възглавница е пълен на змиорки
13:42 [Coke] phenny: "Моят кораб на въздушна възглавница е пълен на змиорки"?
13:42 phenny [Coke]: "My hovercraft is full of eels" (bg to en, translate.google.com)
13:43 arnsholt moritz: From the verb meaning to float. svever would be the norwegian variant
13:43 moritz phenny: "sväv"?
13:43 phenny moritz: "fluidised" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
13:43 moritz phenny: "are"?
13:43 phenny moritz: "are" (en to en, translate.google.com)
13:43 moritz phenny: se en "are"?
13:43 phenny moritz: "are" (en to en, translate.google.com)
13:43 moritz phenny: sv en "are"?
13:43 phenny moritz: "are" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
13:43 arnsholt It's a floater =D
13:43 moritz "Luftkissenboot" is "air cushion boat" :-)
13:43 masak moritz: sv:"att sväva" == en:"to hover"
13:44 arnsholt Yeah, it's luftputebåt in Norwegian too
13:44 arnsholt Apparently it's just the Swedes being weird again ;)
13:44 masak moritz: then it's closer to eo's kusen-vetur-ilo -- cushion-travel-tool.
13:44 moritz that sounds cute :-)
13:45 * moritz likes weird people and languages
13:45 masak phenny: en is "hovercraft"?
13:45 phenny masak: "Láttu" (en to is, translate.google.com)
13:45 masak arnsholt: we have Icelandic on our side!
13:45 masak what do you say now? huh, huh? :P
13:45 arnsholt Icelandic doesn't have voiced plosives. I don't trust 'em ;p
13:46 masak some of my best friends are weird people and use weird languages.
13:46 arnsholt OTOH, I'm no stranger to weird languages =D
13:50 benabik Hm.  OKness feels like an attempt to promote the concept of boolean into the type system.
13:52 geekosaur re $.foo, it's not a macro but it has some vaguely macro-like qualities.  (really more meta than macro I suppose though)
13:52 moritz what macro-like qualities?
13:53 masak it's a form that the parser recognizes and serializes into some target code. nothing more.
13:53 moritz well, that's true for every piece of Perl 6 code :-)
13:54 masak yes!
13:54 masak if what's macro-like about it is "it's sugar for something else", then a lot of things that don't even remotely involve macros are macro-like.
13:54 moritz well, and then we'd need a new word for macros :-)
13:58 fglock pmurias: I've simplified the code, but I've kept your hack - I can't find the problem
14:00 geekosaur that is sort of where I was trying tog owith "more meta than macro" --- but yes, I would in fact claim a lot of P6 is sugar, which to my mind is macro nature.  macros the language feature is just exposing the mechanisms thereof to the user in a hopefully hygienic fashion
14:01 pmurias fglock: Object::Dies claims that the arguments list was accessed by the precedence parser
14:04 moritz geekosaur: then let me tell you that most people around here have a quite different understanding of the nature of macros
14:04 moritz geekosaur: we mostly consider constructs macro-ish that delay evaluating their arguments, for example
14:04 moritz like infix:<&&>, which only evaluates the RHS if the LHS is True
14:07 fglock pmurias: it is probably trying to optimize - maybe trying to join 2 "list<.>" together
14:08 fglock not a big problem, the workaround works fine
14:14 pmurias that's the source of the problem: src5/lib/Perlito5/Expression.pm:291
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14:39 moritz update on the evalbot status:
14:40 moritz I have now set up all the depenencies for running evalbot itself on feather3
14:41 moritz and I've built rakudo, b and niecza on feather1, and I'm now investigating how to best rsync them to feather3
14:41 moritz if you want to help, compile more compilers under the 'p6eval' user on feather1
14:44 flussence would be useful if that rakudo could be used by tryrakudo too, it'd save me having to update that all the time :)
14:46 moritz ah, currently it doesn't work (missing libgmp3-dev)
14:47 fglock moritz: can you install node.js in feather1?
14:47 moritz flussence: but once it works, feel free to use ~p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6
14:48 flussence \o/
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15:37 moritz flussence: works now
15:38 moritz (after installing several shared libraries, after I fixed apt-file, added a gpg key to aptitude and other nice stuff)
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15:41 flussence I'll see if I can get tryrakudo working again once I get out of $dayjob later :)
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16:19 fglock blogged: http://blogs.perl.org/users/flavio_s_glock/2012/03/perl5-in-the-browser-update.html
16:20 moritz fglock: nodejs installed on feather1
16:21 fglock moritz++ thanks!
16:21 moritz fglock++ # perlito hacking
16:27 fglock moritz: I can't find node, where is it installed? I'm logged in at "This is feather1.perl6.nl (ONE)"
16:28 moritz fglock: oh sorry, installation failed, but I didn't notice it in a flurry of warning messages
16:29 moritz fglock: try again please
16:29 fglock yay - works
16:29 moritz \o/
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16:40 moritz r: sub f { @_.join }; say f 1, 2, 3
16:40 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«123␤»
16:42 moritz p6: sub f { @_.join }; say f 1, 2, 3
16:42 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«123␤»
16:48 masak moritz++ # the future is already here
16:48 moritz p6: sub f(*@a) { say @a.elems }; f [1, 2, 3]
16:48 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:48 moritz p6: sub f(*@a) { say @a.elems }; f |[1, 2, 3]
16:48 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«3␤»
16:50 moritz ok, I know why slurpies and sequences don't mix
16:50 moritz slurpies aren't reflected in .count and .signature
16:50 moritz erm, .arity
16:51 masak oh!
16:51 masak only positionals are?
16:51 moritz r: sub a(*@a) { }; say &a.count, ' ', &a.arity
16:51 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«0 0␤»
16:52 masak there you go.
16:52 masak that makes sense.
16:52 moritz last time I tried to fix it, it failed because I had it retur Inf
16:52 moritz which isn't an Int
16:52 moritz which set up some other code in the setting
16:53 masak brrrlgh. can't we rename .count and .arity to .mincount and .maxcount instead? :) I'll never learn which is which!
16:53 moritz +0.1
16:53 moritz .count and .arity are really the wrong approach nearly always
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16:53 masak I probably got it wrong just now. point is, I just have no idea.
16:53 shinobicl r: my %h; %h<a> = 99; my %g; %g<c> = 100; %h<a> = %g<c>; say %h.perl;
16:53 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("a" => 100).hash␤»
16:54 shinobicl rakudo: my %h; %h<a> = 99; my %g; %g<c> = 100; %h<a> = %g<c>; say %h.perl;
16:54 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("a" => 100).hash␤»
16:54 sisar o/
16:54 masak sisar! \o/
16:55 sisar masak, re your fascination with grammars, have you had the chance to study Sanskrit ?
16:55 shinobicl rakudo: my %h; %h<a> = 99; my %g; %g<c> = 100; %h<a> = %g; say %h.perl; say %h<a><c>
16:55 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("a" => {"c" => 100}).hash␤100␤»
16:55 sisar its grammar is amazing too
16:57 masak sisar: no, I haven't gotten there yet. I have a "Teach Yourself" book, and I've talked to people who've studied it.
16:58 masak I want to get there at some point. it does seem amazing.
17:00 * masak decommutes
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17:00 sisar masak, Sanskrit's grammar is very strict and complicated, which scares most people away, but is actually very interesting. Unfortunately, i belong to the scared-away group.
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17:11 sisar what is the state of 'proto' ? is it used anywhere ?
17:11 moritz the module installer? it's superseeded by 'panda'
17:12 moritz nom: given (sub a(|$a) { }).signature.params[0] { say .capture; say .parcel }
17:12 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
17:15 moritz hah, if I fix slurpy sequences, I fail a spectest
17:15 moritz because there's one that uess &prefix:<!> as generator
17:15 moritz ... which has a (|$) prototype
17:15 moritz which is, like, slurpy
17:16 moritz so I pass 2 arguments to prefix:<!>, because the proto lied
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17:24 dalek rakudo/slurpy-sequence: 0604d1b | moritz++ | src/core/ (3 files):
17:24 dalek rakudo/slurpy-sequence: bring back sequences with slurpy generators
17:24 dalek rakudo/slurpy-sequence: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0604d1bf00
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17:50 pmichaud shouldn't need the $is-slurpy thingy in patch 0604d1bf  (re-adding slurpy generators)
17:51 pmichaud $count should be Inf in that case.
17:52 pmichaud for that matter, shouldn't need the "slurpy" method either.  I thought we already had a way to detect that, too.
17:54 pmichaud looks like we don't.  That's likely a nom regression, unless the spec has changed
17:57 pmichaud (regression:  &foo.count should be Inf if it has slurpy args)
18:04 moritz pmichaud: I've tried to change that, but some other code tried to unbox_i the return value from .count
18:04 moritz pmichaud: and I didn't know how to fix that
18:05 pmichaud okay, I can look at it a bit.
18:05 pmichaud b:  sub foo(*@a) { 1 };  say &foo.count;  # checking
18:05 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
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18:07 shinobicl rakudo: my %h; for (1 .. 3) -> $n { for ('A' .. 'C') -> $c { my %tmp; %tmp{$c} = 'X'; %h{$n} = %tmp}  }; say %h.perl;
18:07 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("1" => {"C" => "X"}, "2" => {"C" => "X"}, "3" => {"C" => "X"}).hash␤»
18:08 shinobicl I need to have "1" => { {"A" => "X"}, {"B" => "X"}, {"C" => "X"}} .....
18:08 shinobicl how should i do it?
18:11 pmichaud rakudo: $h{$_} = {{ A => 'X'}, {B => 'X'}, {C => 'X'}} for 1..3;   say %h.perl
18:11 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $h is not declared␤at /tmp/C5zGO6Wlvy:1␤»
18:11 pmichaud rakudo: my %h; %h{$_} = {{ A => 'X'}, {B => 'X'}, {C => 'X'}} for 1..3;   say %h.perl
18:11 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("1" => Block.new(), "2" => Block.new(), "3" => Block.new()).hash␤»
18:11 pmichaud grrrrrrr
18:12 pmichaud rakudo: my %h; %h{$_} = {{ A => 'X';}, {B => 'X';}, {C => 'X';}} for 1..3;   say %h.perl
18:12 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("1" => Block.new(), "2" => Block.new(), "3" => Block.new()).hash␤»
18:13 moritz shinobicl: either you need a list on the second level, or hash keys
18:13 pmichaud rakudo: my %h; %h{$_} = (hash 'A', 'X', 'B', 'X', 'C', 'X') for 1..3;   say %h.perl
18:13 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("1" => {"A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X"}, "2" => {"A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X"}, "3" => {"A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X"}).hash␤»
18:14 pmichaud say (<A B C> X <X>).perl
18:14 pmichaud rakudo: say (<A B C> X <X>).perl
18:14 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«((ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),), (ListIter.new(),)).list␤»
18:14 pmichaud rakudo: say (<A B C> X <X>)
18:14 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«A X B X C X␤»
18:14 pmichaud rakudo: say (<A B C> X <X>).hash.perl
18:15 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X").hash␤»
18:15 moritz rakudo: say (<A B C> X <X>).tree.hash.perl
18:15 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤  in method STORE at src/gen/CORE.setting:5675␤  in method hash at src/gen/CORE.setting:1031␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/VE92WpYAiy:1␤␤»
18:15 moritz rakudo: say (<A B C D> X <X>).tree.hash.perl
18:15 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«("A X" => ["B", "X"], "C X" => ["D", "X"]).hash␤»
18:15 shinobicl niecza: my %h; for (1 .. 3) -> $n { for ('A' .. 'C') -> $c { %h{$n}{$c} = 'X' } }; say %h.perl;
18:15 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«{"1" => {"A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X"}, "2" => {"A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X"}, "3" => {"A" => "X", "B" => "X", "C" => "X"}}.hash␤»
18:15 * moritz loves free-style improvising
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18:20 shinobicl rakudo: my %h; for (1 .. 3) -> $n { for ('A' .. 'C') -> $c { my %tmp; %tmp{$c} = 'X'; %h{$n} = %tmp; say '==>' ~ %h.perl; }; say "|"; };
18:20 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«==>("1" => {"A" => "X"}).hash␤==>("1" => {"B" => "X"}).hash␤==>("1" => {"C" => "X"}).hash␤|␤==>("1" => {"C" => "X"}, "2" => {"A" => "X"}).hash␤==>("1" => {"C" => "X"}, "2" => {"B" => "X"}).hash␤==>("1" => {"C" => "X"}, "2" => {"C" => "X"}).hash␤|␤==>("1" => {"C" =>…
18:32 flussence r: say (1..3 X=> [$({$_=>'X'} for <A B C>)]).perl
18:33 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«(1 => ({"A" => "X"}, {"B" => "X"}, {"C" => "X"}).list.item, 2 => ({"A" => "X"}, {"B" => "X"}, {"C" => "X"}).list.item, 3 => ({"A" => "X"}, {"B" => "X"}, {"C" => "X"}).list.item).list␤»
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18:45 shinobicl the problem is that i need to create the hash elements inside a loop
18:46 moritz and what's the problem with that?
18:47 shinobicl sorry, i meant inside a loop inside a loop
18:47 shinobicl give me a minute please
18:48 shinobicl http://pastebin.ca/2131164
18:49 pmichaud %h<a><b> doesn't work?
18:49 shinobicl this is the part of the code i'm working on. I have 2 loops,
18:49 pmichaud rakudo:  my %h;  %h<a><b> = 'X';   say %h.perl
18:49 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Method 'at_key' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in method postcircumfix:<{ }> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1184␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/6WtKw2ltlN:1␤␤»
18:49 shinobicl pmichaud: not in rakudo
18:49 pmichaud huh
18:49 pmichaud that's... surprising
18:50 TimToady perl6: nom doesn't do autoviv yet
18:50 PerlJam pmichaud: autovivification bug I'd warrant.
18:50 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "'"␤    expecting "::", dot, ":", "(", term postfix, operator or ","␤    at /tmp/gu7QXOxqxz line 1, column 10␤»
18:50 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&yet' called (line 1)␤Undefined routine '&autoviv' called (line 1)␤Undefined routine '&doesn't' called (line 1)␤Undefined routine '&nom' called (line 1)␤»
18:50 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routines:â�¤     'autoviv' used at line 1â�¤       'doesn't' used at line 1â�¤       'nom' used at line 1â�¤   'yet' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @
18:50 moritz shinobicl: is that inside a class?
18:50 p6eval ..3) ␤  at…
18:50 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a;  @a[0][1] = 'X';  say @a.perl;
18:50 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/a7eU8DzyIK:1␤␤»
18:50 shinobicl yes moritz
18:50 moritz shinobicl: or inside a method?
18:50 pmichaud oh, I can/should fix that.
18:50 shinobicl o
18:50 pmichaud at least for a simple case
18:50 shinobicl its a method inside my "Scheduler" class
18:50 TimToady perl6: my %hash; %hash<a> = 1,2,3; say join ';', %hash<a>; # parcel should flatten in list context
18:51 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
18:51 TimToady but nobody does flatten the parcel
18:51 shinobicl there's the whole Schedule.pm file: http://pastebin.ca/2131165
18:52 moritz shinobicl: I don't understand why you first create a string, and then parse the string to get at the elements
18:52 moritz shinobicl: is your underlying problem that you want to create a hash of arbitrary depth?
18:53 shinobicl moritz: yes
18:53 moritz shinobicl: ah. That's easier to discuss in isolation. Let me come up with an example
18:54 fgomez joined #perl6
18:54 shinobicl i have a "schedule" definition like this: http://pastebin.ca/2131168
18:54 shinobicl ahh... ok then
18:54 TimToady perl6: my %hash; %hash<a> = 1,2,3; say join ';', |%hash<a>;   # the | should not be necessary, methinks
18:54 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1;2;3␤»
18:54 TimToady much like self shouldn't itemize
18:55 shinobicl the schedule propoerties are convertet to strings to "combine" them, and to create all the moments where the task (not yet implemented) should run
18:56 TimToady lunch & # and change position from back-spasm-inducing chair...
18:57 moritz shinobicl: https://gist.github.com/2161803
18:59 moritz of course the call be prettified to   fill my %h, <a b c d e>, 'foo';
19:05 shinobicl that worked perfect... would serve as a workaround for now, thanks moritz++ !
19:05 shinobicl btw,i've never seen //= before
19:19 raiph joined #perl6
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19:21 japhb masak, In my misspent youth I worked at SAP (creator of ABAP).  While it is an UGLY language, the underlying engine/VM is actually quite powerful.  Among other things, it papers over weaknesses in databases to such a degree that there is an internal class taught on "ABAP optimization" that basically boils down to teaching you when not to use the full power available, because your database is having to work like mad to do things that look t
19:21 japhb rivial in ABAP.
19:22 japhb Mind you, ABAP is one of those languages that really shows you how maintaining backwards compatibility deep into the mainframe era is not always a win ....
19:22 fgomez ra
19:23 fgomez ra: 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:23 fgomez how
19:23 fgomez perl6: 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:23 japhb fgomez, either just 'r:' or 'rakudo:'
19:23 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "9"␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/JChNVm4Z73 line 1, column 9␤»
19:23 p6eval ..rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'infix:<...>' will never work with argument types (Mu, Mu, int) (line 1)␤    Expected any of:␤    :(Any $a, Any $b)␤»
19:23 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89:  ( no output )
19:23 fgomez oh ok
19:24 fgomez r: 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:24 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'infix:<...>' will never work with argument types (Mu, Mu, int) (line 1)␤    Expected any of:␤    :(Any $a, Any $b)␤»
19:24 fgomez Hmm
19:24 benabik Interesting.  ... chains?
19:24 doy n: say for 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:24 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/tHX9J57Lk5 line 1:�------> [32msay[33m�[31m for 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100[0m��Unhandled exception: C…
19:24 doy n: .say for 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:24 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤20␤30␤40␤50␤60␤70␤80␤90␤100␤»
19:25 fgomez r: .say for 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:25 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'infix:<...>' will never work with argument types (Mu, Mu, int) (line 1)␤    Expected any of:␤    :(Any $a, Any $b)␤»
19:25 japhb masak, what in your mind would be needed to turn my suggested stretch goal into something you'd be satisfied with?  I wanted it general enough that once agreement on the principle can be reached, people can simultaneously work towards the goal, and begin defining the benchmark suite that would help put it on solid ground.
19:25 MayDaniel joined #perl6
19:38 ksi joined #perl6
19:46 fgomez joined #perl6
19:46 TimToady b: .say for 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:46 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<...>'. Available candidates are:␤:(@lhs, @rhs)␤:(@lhs, Any $limit)␤:(Any $lhs, @rhs)␤:(Any $lhs, Any $rhs)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/0P_3cAizAo␤»
19:47 TimToady b: .say for 1,2,3...10,20,30...100
19:47 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:<...>'. Available candidates are:␤:(@lhs, @rhs)␤:(@lhs, Any $limit)␤:(Any $lhs, @rhs)␤:(Any $lhs, Any $rhs)␤␤  in main program body at line 22:/tmp/lk8CnUKJse␤»
19:48 fgomez joined #perl6
19:52 PerlJam Hmm. I couldn've sworn that worked in rakudo at one time.
19:52 PerlJam s/n//
19:54 dalek rakudo/slurpy-sequence: 048f1b7 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2012.03:
19:54 dalek rakudo/slurpy-sequence: add first draft of 2012.03 release announcement
19:54 dalek rakudo/slurpy-sequence: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/048f1b7fd4
19:55 moritz oops, wrong branch
19:55 pmichaud TimToady: why would %hash<a> be considered a list and not an item?
19:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 4c7f568 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2012.03:
19:55 dalek rakudo/nom: add first draft of 2012.03 release announcement
19:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4c7f568762
19:55 colomon PerlJam: I'm pretty sure it never has
19:56 PerlJam moritz: you're doing the release this month?
19:56 moritz PerlJam: no, masak++ does
19:56 PerlJam ah
19:56 moritz PerlJam: but I'm doing some release prep anyway
19:56 moritz so that he has less work to do
19:57 PerlJam colomon: Really?  I remember  that specific example as one of the things that made me start thinking ... was really neat.
19:57 PerlJam moritz++ you always seem to do release prep
19:57 colomon PerlJam: that example has been in the specs for a long time....  :)
19:57 PerlJam maybe so
19:58 PerlJam n: .say for 1,2,3...9,10,20,30...100
19:58 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤20␤30␤40␤50␤60␤70␤80␤90␤100␤»
19:58 PerlJam Works in niecza :)
20:01 fgomez guess you could
20:01 pmichaud autoviv isn't listed in feature comparison, I guess
20:02 fgomez r:1,2,3...9,list(10,20,30...90),list(100,200,300...900)
20:02 moritz it should be, probably
20:02 fgomez r: say 1,2,3...9,list(10,20,30...90),list(100,200,300...900)
20:02 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900␤»
20:03 fgomez is @(...) the same as list(...) ?
20:03 moritz I think it's the same as .list
20:04 TimToady pmichaud: parcels bound into a slurpy are supposed to flatten
20:04 fgomez and what's the difference between .list and list()?
20:04 moritz fgomez: I have no idea
20:04 pmichaud TimToady: that confuses me
20:04 fgomez Haha
20:05 moritz p6: say join '|', <a b c>, <d e f>
20:05 p6eval pugs, rakudo 1a468d, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«a|b|c|d|e|f␤»
20:05 pmichaud if I have:  my @a;   @a[0] = (1,2,3); ---- doesn't the 1,2,3 get itemized?
20:05 pmichaud r: my @a; @a[0] = (1,2,3);  say @a.perl;
20:05 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Array.new((1, 2, 3))␤»
20:06 TimToady (1,2,3) sure looks like a parcel to me
20:06 dalek features: aa40c49 | moritz++ | features.json:
20:06 dalek features: autovivification
20:06 dalek features: review: https://github.com/perl6/features/commit/aa40c49e39
20:06 TimToady r: my @a; @a[0] = (1,2,3);  say @a[0].WHAT
20:06 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
20:06 pmichaud oh.  Are Parcels visible now?
20:06 pmichaud is that a change from last summer?
20:06 TimToady no
20:07 pmichaud b:  my @a;  @a[0] = (1,2,3);  say @a[0].WHAT
20:07 p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«Seq()␤»
20:07 TimToady well, maybe on that level it's different
20:07 pmichaud that's what confuses me.
20:07 pmichaud I'm very surprised that @a[0] ended up being "Parcel"
20:08 pmichaud that feels very much like a spec change to me, or else I'm horribly misremembering stuff.
20:09 benabik r: my @a; @a[0] = 1; say @a[0].WHAT
20:09 p6eval rakudo 1a468d: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
20:09 benabik You gave it a parcel, it gave one back.  Not too surprising to me.
20:09 pmichaud benabik: Parcels are normally more invisible than that.
20:10 pmichaud traditionally it was rare to find one without having to do something special to get it
20:10 pmichaud s/are normally/were normally/
20:11 pmichaud I'm building an older version of nom to see if it's been that way for a while
20:12 TimToady these days functions try to return values that are non-commital on the issue of flattening, and array/hash subscripts are just a funny kind of function
20:12 pmichaud the model I had been working from treated every element of a hash/array as an item, though.
20:13 pmichaud so if that's no longer the case, then I have to do a major rethink of my model
20:13 TimToady it's an item as in an object, but not an item as in $ prevents flattening
20:13 TimToady the whole business of binding to a \term is going the same direction
20:14 pmichaud right, so that's a change from what we had last summer then
20:14 TimToady it used to be \$term, but then join ';', $term did something unexpected
20:14 TimToady so now it's term, to not commit to non-flattening like $ does
20:14 TimToady and recently we're trying to make self behave the same way
20:14 TimToady like any function that returns a list to be interpolated
20:15 pmichaud okay, this may make some serious changes to nom's container and flattening model then
20:15 moritz /o\ another list refactor :/
20:15 pmichaud very likely.
20:15 mdupont joined #perl6
20:16 pmichaud depending on the degree to which people have been updating things in my absence.
20:16 pmichaud (updating == to match these newer interpretations)
20:17 pmichaud nom's internal model has been that arrays and hashes are basically aggregations of scalar (non-flattening) containers
20:18 pmichaud if that's not really the case, then the flattening logic has to be re-thunk
20:19 PerlJam It's kind of still true
20:19 pmichaud PerlJam: not if @a[0] can flatten.
20:19 TimToady I seem to recall saying more than a year ago that flattening has to be an attribute of arguments, not of the objects themselves
20:20 pmichaud over time, you've said a lot of things regarding flattening :) :) :)
20:20 libertyprime joined #perl6
20:20 PerlJam pmichaud: well, arrays and hashes are aggregations of non-commital containers (wrt flattening)
20:21 pmichaud PerlJam: that's significantly different from what nom has been implementing
20:21 PerlJam pmichaud: so ... did you ever finish that grant?  ;)
20:21 pmichaud and this isn't new to nom -- the notion that arrays are aggregates of scalars goes all the way back to the original rakudo star release
20:21 pmichaud (in 2010)
20:24 masak ah, #perl6.
20:25 masak so I heard you like Rakudo releases.
20:25 pmichaud PerlJam: no, I didn't finish the grant yet -- and it looks like it's a good thing I didn't.  :)
20:28 pmichaud not also that nom doesn't treat flattening as an attribute of the objects -- it's an attribute of containers
20:28 pmichaud not the objects the containers contain
20:28 pmichaud thus  $a is non-flattening, @a is flattening, even if they're bound to the same object
20:29 masak this conforms to my mental model.
20:29 pmichaud s/not also/note also/
20:29 masak is it about to change? :/
20:29 pmichaud may have already changed and we've been thinking of it wrong, if I'm understanding TimToady++ correctly
20:30 masak I mean, about to change in either or both of my two favorite implementations.
20:30 pmichaud well, rakudo wants to conform to the spec :)
20:30 noteventime joined #perl6
20:30 pmichaud so if this is a mismatch, then rakudo will need to change
20:31 masak huh, then I'll need a new mental rule for when things flatten.
20:31 pmichaud well, yeah, that's what I'm trying to develop for myself as well
20:31 masak the current is "when they have a @ sigil or when you cast with @() or when you do .list"
20:33 pmichaud apparently   @a[0]   and %h{'a'}  should flatten as well
20:33 TimToady none of which are true when you way return 1,2,3 from a function
20:33 pmichaud return 1,2,3  isn't an issue because there aren't any containers involved
20:33 pmichaud (in my mental model)
20:33 TimToady it's a parcel
20:34 masak o moricie, you even wrote a release announcement.
20:34 masak apparently, the name of this month's release is "TODO".
20:34 pmichaud s/containers/scalar containers/   # then
20:34 TimToady I don't expect it to be fixed this month
20:34 masak I've been having many good beers with TODO.pm... :)
20:35 pmichaud TimToady: sure, but I still have to get in my head what the correct model is, especially for diving back into list-ish sorts of things
20:35 masak moritz: what's the closest thing to Erlangen.pm ?
20:36 masak dang, we already had Erlangen back in 2010 :)
20:36 pmichaud as moritz intimated above -- this is one of those things that tends to spread throughout a lot of the list code
20:37 pmichaud and in this case, into the binder code as well it would seem.
20:38 masak anyone have a better suggestion than Argentina.pm ? :P
20:38 tadzik how about Warsaw.pm? :)
20:39 pmichaud have we had many south-american names yet?
20:39 pmichaud if not, Argentina.pm (or something in that area) works very much for me
20:40 masak tadzik: Warsaw.pm sounds neat. what'd they do that's better than refreshing one of our core devs? :)
20:40 tadzik not much, I guess :)
20:41 pmichaud core dev refreshment is very important, though.
20:41 masak pmichaud: no names from the South American continent in Rakudo releases to date.
20:41 pmichaud imagine jnthn++'s productivity level if beer were not available in sufficient quantities
20:41 masak tadzik: come back when Warsaw.pm has held a Perl 6 hackathon or something. sheesh. :P
20:42 pmichaud oslo hackathon activity:  decide on a release name to commemorate the hackathon (since Oslo.pm has already been used :)
20:42 * masak .oO( Bergen.pm )
20:43 masak (which doesn't exist) :)
20:43 PerlJam Is is okay if we start PM groups just so we have some good names for Rakudo releases?
20:43 masak ok, starting the release process. people, don't commit to master unless you're helping me with the release.
20:43 PerlJam :)
20:43 pmichaud No.
20:44 PerlJam masak++
20:44 masak PerlJam: one of these months, we'll run out of .pm groups :)
20:44 masak we'll run out of good reasons long before, of course.
20:44 pernatiy joined #perl6
20:45 pmichaud anyway, I can explore to find out what happens when arrays/hashes aren't aggregations of scalar (non-flattening) containers, but I suspect we'll have some real surprises.
20:46 PerlJam I know it's kind of boring to just have "release #57" or whatever, but why exactly are we naming and numbering releases?  Is anyone going talk about the "ThousandOaks.pm release"?  Probably only the person that did the release and briefly some people from ThousandOaks.pm.
20:46 PerlJam Perhaps we should just give releases numbers only, then for _significant_ releases, give them a name.
20:46 pmichaud the numbering makes it easier to know how many there have been
20:47 pmichaud I'd prefer not to have to debate about what constitutes a "significant" release. (more)
20:47 pmichaud I'd rather relax the "contributes to Perl 6" restriction and start picking .pm names we like
20:47 masak PerlJam: you may have missed us using the code names, but it actually happens quite a lot. with some releases more than others.
20:48 pmichaud indeed, we do refer to "Beijing" from time to time :)
20:48 masak yeah, I was gonna say.
20:48 PerlJam pmichaud: you wouldn't have to debate about significance.  It would be an emergent property  :)
20:48 pmichaud some products have themed names for every release (e.g., stars, birds, felines, etc.).  Our theme just happens to be .pm groups
20:48 masak that's probably the most referred-to release code name to date.
20:49 pmichaud PerlJam: see "stable release" for a counter example :)
20:49 pmichaud and significance is often only observable in retrospect :)
20:49 masak pmichaud: I suggest when we run out of virtuous reasons to pick .pm groups, we instead pick them out of spite :>
20:49 pmichaud masak: that works for me also
20:49 masak mwhaha
20:49 PerlJam Which pm group does Damian frequent or is closest to?
20:50 pmichaud I'd be happy to see Austin.pm and/or DFW.pm listed someday.
20:50 pmichaud DFW.pm does have regular (montly) discussions of Perl 6, even if there are many contributors besides myself
20:50 pmichaud *monthly
20:51 pmichaud *aren't
20:51 PerlJam pmichaud: wait ... does that mean you talk to DFW.pm about perl 6 every month?  :)
20:51 pmichaud well, "DFW.pm" is kind of an umbrella sort of thing at the moment (more)
20:52 pmichaud because the DFW metroplex is so geographically large, it's hard to have regular "DFW.pm meetings"
20:52 dalek nqp: fd67256 | masak++ | VERSION:
20:52 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2012.03
20:52 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fd6725660a
20:52 pmichaud instead, there's a sub-group of us that meet every second Tuesday in one of the suburb cities -- usually there's 6-12 attendees at each meeting
20:52 pmichaud and yes, Perl 6 progress and latest tidbits is always an item of discussion at those meetings
20:53 jaldhar joined #perl6
20:53 moritz fwiw at most Erlangen.pm meetings Perl 6 also comes up, and I tell them a bit about the current state
20:53 pmichaud we've encouraged other DFW suburb areas to form regular meetings and advertise them on the DFW.pm list... but so far nobody has done that that I know of.
20:54 japhb I'd love to see a Sonoma.pm release (that's my local PM), but the "group has done something significant for Perl 6" has always been a blocker to me suggesting it -- since we do talk about Perl 6 most times, but the group seems more in the general mood to discuss and inform than to hackathon.
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: 77dcb04 | masak++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: [tools/build/NQP_REVISION] to latest NQP release
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: ...and it's only minutes old! That's how current we are!
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/77dcb04420
20:55 PerlJam "Evangelizes Perl 6 more than any other PM group"
20:55 tadzik masak: we had a party with a cake on Rakudo Star release, does that count? :P
20:56 PerlJam "Has more Perl 6 discussion than #perl6"
20:56 cbk1090 joined #perl6
20:56 PerlJam "Had a party for Perl 6"
20:56 pmichaud I'm fine with us simply choosing .pm groups based on people who hang out on #perl6/#parrot, too :)
20:56 masak tadzik: were you contributing to Rakudo at the time you ate the cake? :)
20:56 PerlJam japhb: those look like "something significant" to me  ;-)
20:56 pmichaud I'm especially fine with choosing .pm groups based on the fact that they ultimately produce a core dev :) :)
20:57 pmichaud we should have more of those.  :)
20:57 tadzik masak: we were planning to blow the candles with an air coming out of CPU cooler while it was compiling Rakudo :P
20:57 PerlJam tadzik: lol
20:57 masak tadzik: that, sir, is *awesome*.
20:57 pmichaud if the air is hot enough, you could perhaps use it to light the candles
20:57 tadzik http://warszawa.pm.org/
20:57 tadzik possibly
20:58 pmichaud or, disable the fan and light the candles directly from the CPU
20:58 pmichaud afaic, warsaw qualifies for a name based on having a picture of their Perl 6 cake :) :)
20:58 PerlJam the dripping wax will even help the mother board (probably)
21:00 pmichaud anyway, I like the naming-of-each-release.  Even if only a few people end up talking about the named group, that's more than would happen otherwise.  And at least for me, hearing names of other groups at least inspires me to put "SomeGroup.pm" into my browser to see what it looks like :)
21:00 benabik rochester.pm looks sad.  :-(
21:01 pmichaud although, we could start picking .pm groups that seem to have nothing to do with Perl 6, in the hopes of "shaming" them into contributing something :-) :-) :-)
21:01 pmichaud er... "shaming" --> "enticing"  :-)
21:02 masak uploaded nqp-2012.03.tar.gz to https://github.com/perl6/nqp/downloads -- despite this not being in the nqp release guide.
21:02 masak someone++ is welcome to fix the nqp release guide, while I continue releasing Rakudo ;)
21:03 pmichaud "Starting with the Deadbeats.pm release, we will be naming each Rakudo compiler release after a group that ought to be contributing to future releases."
21:06 moritz masak: iirc github offers .zip downloads automatically for each tag
21:06 moritz masak: so that's what the folks who think they need a source package can use; everybody else just uses --gen-nqp
21:08 masak moritz: be that as it may -- jnthn pointed out that I had not done this step last time. this time I remembered doing it.
21:09 moritz fairy nuff
21:09 moritz I suppose you're right
21:10 masak tools/update-tai-utc.pl # This program should next be run in August.
21:10 masak I wanted to write some humorous reaction to that...
21:11 masak ...but I just think it's funny in itself. the program gives advice on when it's to be run next time.
21:11 pmichaud seems like it ought to be able to run itself at that point :)
21:11 moritz sleep 3600 while Date.today < Date.new(2012, 8)
21:12 masak it's a bit like the box with a button that when pushed has an arm come out of the box and push the button to turn it off.
21:13 tadzik haha
21:13 masak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmQ5LsNMXZ4
21:13 masak luddite tech.
21:14 * pmichaud considers building a machine like that out of Legos
21:15 benabik ...  It runs away?
21:15 moritz wow, that's quite an advanced version
21:15 moritz pmichaud: exactly my thought :-)
21:16 moritz and then "hey, I have an Arduino" :-)
21:16 pmichaud http://youtube.com/pmichaud
21:16 pmichaud (the FLL championship videos, not the wheel matching one :)
21:17 benabik pmichaud: Of course, the wheel matching one is the one I started watching.
21:19 masak pmichaud: that is impressive.
21:19 pmichaud yeah, the team did well this year (our first year)
21:28 fsergot joined #perl6
21:30 shinobicl joined #perl6
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: c15aecd | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.03:
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.03] finalized
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: s/TODO/Argentina/. other small fixes.
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c15aecd5a7
21:32 masak feel free to review at your convenience.
21:33 pmichaud March 2012 release, yes?
21:34 pmichaud first sentence says "February"
21:34 masak indeed.
21:34 masak pmichaud++
21:34 masak fixing.
21:34 masak (I initially had the ending paragraph as "an indescribable ecstasy and delirium in melting; (what salutes of cannon and small arms!)", but I looked at it and decided it was probably too spurious for a Rakudo release)
21:34 masak s/an/Have an/
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: 5dab131 | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.03:
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.03] s/February/March/
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: pmichaud++ eagle eyes.
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5dab131b1d
21:39 PerlJam masak: I really like that last paragraph
21:39 masak thanks.
21:39 PerlJam masak++ always making things better :)
21:40 pmichaud I will get autoviv working before the next release.
21:40 pmichaud I didn't realize it wasn't working.
21:42 dalek rakudo/nom: 5dda9a7 | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:42 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/release_guide.doc] current release => past
21:42 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:42 dalek rakudo/nom: Also extended the future a little.
21:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5dda9a7142
21:43 felher masak++
21:44 felher and with that important thing said, im going out for nightly walk
21:45 masak Trashlord: I think we won't have time to cut down/poison/catch everything before the oil runs out.
21:46 masak and then we'll realize that everything, including the economy, ran on oil.
21:47 justdroppingby joined #perl6
21:48 masak PerlJam: for some reason, I was reminded of the quote "Do your work with your whole heart, and you will succeed -- there's so little competition." -- Elbert Hubbard
21:48 masak justdroppingby: hi!
21:48 justdroppingby hello
21:48 masak are you staying for long, or... :P
21:48 Trashlord joined #perl6
21:49 justdroppingby just dropping by ...
21:50 masak somehow I had that feeling.
21:50 tadzik heh, I saw that one coming
21:50 pmichaud justdroppingby: you're in good company.  :-)
21:50 masak perl6: say <just dropping by>.pick(*)
21:50 p6eval rakudo 77dcb0: OUTPUT«by just dropping␤»
21:50 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«just dropping by␤»
21:50 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«bydroppingjust␤»
21:51 masak niecza++
21:51 pmichaud perl6: say <just dropping by>.pick(*)
21:51 p6eval rakudo 77dcb0: OUTPUT«just dropping by␤»
21:51 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«droppingjustby␤»
21:51 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«dropping just by␤»
21:51 masak rakudo++
21:51 pmichaud just checking that our random number generators were still "random"  :)
21:54 justdroppingby perl6: say < dropping just by>.pick(*)
21:54 p6eval rakudo 77dcb0: OUTPUT«by just dropping␤»
21:54 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«droppingjustby␤»
21:54 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«by dropping just␤»
21:54 masak quick, what's the probability that at least one of the three implementations will get the right order? :)
21:54 tadzik 1/2
21:55 masak how'd you arrive at that?
21:55 tadzik 3*2*1 permutations, 3 chances to hit
21:55 masak it's 1/6 that a given implementation will get it. so it's 5/6 that it won't get it. that all three won't get it is (5/6)**3
21:55 masak thus, that at least one will get it right is 1-(5/6)**3
21:55 masak p6: say 1-(5/6)**3
21:56 tadzik oh, that's the thing I keep forgetting about :)
21:56 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«0.4212962962962962962962962962962962962963␤»
21:56 p6eval ..rakudo 77dcb0: OUTPUT«0.421296296296296␤»
21:56 p6eval ..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«0.42129629629629628␤»
21:56 masak yeah, you can't just add probabilities.
21:56 tadzik right
21:56 masak that way, you'll hit 1.0 pretty fast :P
21:56 masak and that's just silly.
21:56 pmichaud well, you *can* add probabilities, but you'll probably be wrong for doing so.  :)
21:56 masak you can only really add probabilities that refer to the same event falling out in different ways.
21:57 masak but these refer to three different events.
21:57 justdroppingby is this really a perl6 channel? :)
21:58 masak *lol*
21:58 tadzik haha
21:58 tadzik sometimes I don't believe it either
21:58 tadzik masak: quick, Przypadki!
21:58 masak quick, everyone put on their Perl 6 masks!
21:59 masak tadzik: I'm all out of przypadki... :)
21:59 justdroppingby what is przypadki? googling..
21:59 masak justdroppingby: if you have an on-topic Perl 6 question/comment, don't let our frivolities stop you.
21:59 masak justdroppingby: it's "grammatical cases" in Polish. that was the off-topic topic the other day.
22:00 masak man, this box is fast.
22:00 justdroppingby and probability is on-topic. :)
22:01 tadzik everything is, as long as it's not disturbing the Perl 6 discussion ongoing
22:01 pmichaud afk for me for a while -- bbl
22:01 masak justdroppingby: hey, we were talking probability in the context of Perl 6 implementations giving the right answer :P
22:02 justdroppingby haha
22:02 justdroppingby what is easiest way to start with perl6?
22:03 * masak just sits and watches in awe as `TEST_JOBS=8 time make stresstest` chews through the spectest suite
22:03 tadzik justdroppingby: perl6.org/documentation
22:03 justdroppingby considering I know *very little* perl5
22:03 justdroppingby thank you.
22:04 masak justdroppingby: type 'r: say "OH HAI"' here on the channel -- voila! you've started with Perl 6!
22:04 masak justdroppingby: also, why should we invest time in helping you? you're just gonna leave soon anyway. :P
22:04 justdroppingby masak: what is r?
22:05 justdroppingby sorry for asking silly questions
22:05 masak short for "rakudo".
22:05 masak the compiler I'm in the process of doing a monthly release for right now.
22:06 masak you have r/rakudo, n/niecza, p/pugs, and for all three, p6/perl6.
22:06 justdroppingby I am new to irc as well.
22:06 justdroppingby ok
22:07 masak the individual that replies when you do this, p6eval, is a bot.
22:07 masak r: say "hi!"
22:07 p6eval rakudo 5dda9a: OUTPUT«hi!␤»
22:07 masak the funny NL character means "newline"
22:07 justdroppingby r: say "Hello Perl6 Folks!"
22:07 p6eval rakudo 5dda9a: OUTPUT«Hello Perl6 Folks!␤»
22:07 tadzik hello!
22:08 masak o/
22:08 masak hah! burned through the stresstest suite in 3:43.53!
22:08 masak man, that feels good!
22:08 justdroppingby n: say " Hi tadzik"
22:08 p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT« Hi tadzik␤»
22:09 havenn joined #perl6
22:09 masak so, we have three failures in t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t
22:09 masak anyone able to reproduce this on HEAD?
22:09 masak moritz: is this a known one?
22:10 masak havenn: hi! welcome back!
22:11 masak justdroppingby: we have other nice bots that do other useful things for us.
22:11 masak dalek++ reports commits on the channel.
22:11 havenn masak: hi! how goes perl6 development?
22:11 justdroppingby commits to perl6 repository?
22:11 masak phenny++ helps us with Unicode, delivering messages to people who are AFK or logged out, and translating language.
22:12 masak justdroppingby: we have dozens of repositories. none is called perl6 :)
22:12 tadzik hugme: hug me
22:12 * hugme hugs tadzik
22:12 tadzik that one is the best
22:12 tadzik hugme: hug justdroppingby
22:12 * hugme hugs justdroppingby
22:12 masak havenn: just about to release the best Rakudo monthly, ever.
22:12 justdroppingby I meant related to perl6
22:12 masak right.
22:12 masak hugme hugs people, and also gives them commit bits so they can contribute.
22:12 hugme masak:
22:13 masak and she's noisy sometimes :)
22:14 masak Imma go ahaed and fudge t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t for now. but I don't like that it fails and no-one noticed.
22:14 masak still interested in an independent reproduce from someone.
22:14 flussence .oO( hugme should have an `$output ||= ')';` line added... )
22:15 justdroppingby ok. its late for me. I will download rakudo soon and start playing with it. once I know how to :)
22:16 masak let us know if you figure out how to download rakudo ;)
22:17 _sri joined #perl6
22:18 literal joined #perl6
22:18 mathw joined #perl6
22:20 mj41 joined #perl6
22:21 skids joined #perl6
22:23 fsergot 'night #perl6 \o
22:23 masak 'night, fsergocie.
22:23 dalek roast: 4cfafd6 | masak++ | S19-command-line/dash-e.t:
22:23 dalek roast: [S19-command-line/dash-e.t] fudged for rakudo
22:23 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4cfafd6979
22:23 tadzik masak++ # good :)
22:23 tadzik fsergot: g'night
22:24 jferrero joined #perl6
22:27 dalek rakudo/nom: fb64898 | masak++ | VERSION:
22:27 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
22:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fb648983db
22:31 masak ooh, another nice p6l email thread.
22:31 masak started by the same (Daniel Carrera)++
22:39 masak I'm now at the stage where I'm re-running the test suites from a fresh unpack of the tarball.
22:39 masak getting a failure in the last 'make test' file, t/02-embed/01-load.t
22:39 masak should I be concerned?
22:39 whiteknight joined #perl6
22:39 masak running the stresstest suite to see if there is more fallout. if there isn't I'm inclined to ignore the one failure in t/02-embed/01-load.t
22:42 fgomez joined #perl6
22:42 masak all stresstests successful. full steam ahead.
22:43 masak github tarball uploaded; Rakudo wikipedia page updated; p6c email sent.
22:44 tadzik Steady as she goes, Lt. Sulu
22:44 masak monthly release releng mode completed.
22:44 masak you can now make awesome commits as usual ;)
22:45 pjcj joined #perl6
22:46 * felher builds newest rakudo to try to reproduce masaks broken test.
22:46 masak pjcj: hi! long time no see.
22:46 colomon masak++
22:49 masak so, who's doing the May release? :)
22:51 shinobicl_ joined #perl6
22:53 felher masak: is a to execute './perl6 t/spec/S19-command-line/dash-e.t' sufficient? If so, it doesn't fail here.
22:53 felher gives me three oks
22:53 felher s/a//
22:54 masak felher: that should be sufficient, yes.
22:54 masak maybe my setup is causing the error, then.
22:55 masak felher++ # thanks for checking
22:55 masak felher: what about t/02-embed/01-load.t ? does it pass?
22:56 felher masak: not sure.  './perl6 t/02-embed/01-load.t' doesn't give me a okay. But it doesn't say it failed neither. It just gives me '1..1'
22:57 pjcj masak: I'm usually idling here and you only notice me when my net connection comes back up ;-)
22:57 felher if thats enough for passnig, that it passes :)
22:57 masak pjcj: ah. you've been idling since October 2005, just so you know. :)
22:58 pjcj heh
22:58 masak felher: it should say one OK, too :/
22:58 masak $ ./perl6 -e 'print q[\c[LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DOT ABOVE]]'
22:58 masak ===SORRY!===
22:58 masak Confused
22:58 masak at -e:1
22:58 masak :/
22:58 jnthn joined #perl6
22:58 masak this is why dash-e.t fails here.
22:58 masak could be something ICU-related. I do have ICU installed.
22:59 felher oO? This fails here, too.
22:59 felher i'm getting the same error as you get
22:59 felher But the test works just fine
23:04 masak how can the test work just fine when it's all about the execution not failing?
23:04 masak are you running the same executable both times?
23:06 felher masak: yes
23:06 felher masak: maybe thats the catch:
23:07 felher masak: \c[LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DOT ABOVE] gets substitutet _before_ its given to an argument to perl -e
23:08 felher so its executing "perl -e 'print q[<some-weird-symbol>]'
23:09 shinobicl_ joined #perl6
23:09 masak what would substitute it before? bash?
23:09 masak that doesn't make any sense.
23:10 felher masak: the problem ist that the bash doesn't substitute. But the perl-test does.
23:10 masak oh! you're right, of course.
23:10 masak yes, the substitution happens in the test file.
23:11 felher :)
23:11 felher The first time i was here, in this channel, my perl6 wisdom was cleary zero. But i tell you, it has doubled since then! :)
23:12 masak felher++
23:12 masak yes, now I got it to run.
23:16 felher Hm, i think that should be: "cleary was zero", shouldn't it?
23:17 masak both sound fine to me.
23:17 masak if you discount the s/cleary/clearly/ typo ;)
23:18 felher Oh, yeah, right :)
23:18 * masak heads to bed
23:18 masak 'night, #perl6
23:18 felher o/ sleep well :)

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