Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-03-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:16 TimToady perl6: say (1, 1.000000000001, 1.000000000002 ... *)[10]
00:16 p6eval rakudo a4c78f, niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«1.00000000001␤»
00:16 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "["␤    at /tmp/UtrSMuGBxC line 1, column 46␤»
00:20 sorear .000000000001 is larger than 2**-64
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00:32 TimToady just making sure what I said on p6l was troo
00:33 colomon perl6: say (1, 1.000000000001, 1.000000000002 ... *)[^10]
00:33 p6eval rakudo a4c78f, niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«1 1.000000000001 1.000000000002 1.000000000003 1.000000000004 1.000000000005 1.000000000006 1.000000000007 1.000000000008 1.000000000009␤»
00:33 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "[^"␤    at /tmp/4ddP672TH0 line 1, column 46␤»
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00:52 tadzik masak: pong :)
00:52 tadzik colomon: still around?
00:52 colomon yes
00:52 tadzik had some questions about panda?
00:53 colomon was trying to figure out how the ecosystem works.
00:53 tadzik http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/projects.json now has Math::ContinuedFractions; it's updated hourly
00:53 colomon but it seems to have sorted itself out.
00:53 colomon yes.
00:53 tadzik there's a script on feather which collects everything from the perl6/ecosystem repo and puts it in one big JSON for module manager's sake
00:53 tadzik s/manager's/managers'/
00:53 colomon I just wasn't patient
00:54 tadzik impatience is one of our virtues :)
00:55 japhb (backlogging) colomon, yes, I've seen panda running exceptionally slowly on Rakudo.  My current mini-benchmark is 'panda list', which takes ~23s on my local machine.  Analyzing the profile, I saw most of the aggregate time went to JSON parsing; of that, a lot of time spent in QRegex, but a lot more just doing general list slinging operations -- I concluded (among other things) that Rakudo pays dearly performance-wise for its current lazine
00:55 japhb ss design.
00:55 colomon also, at least on my system, saying   panda search Math     is ludicrously slow.
00:56 tadzik fwiw, JSON is really a piece of cake in all this
00:56 colomon It only takes 6 seconds on niecza, so it doesn't seem like your algorithms are at fault.  :)
00:56 tadzik loading modules, on the other hand...
00:56 tadzik SVG::Plot took 20.5 seconds to generate a pacman chart
00:56 tadzik 20 to load SVG::Plot, 0.5 to generate a chart
00:56 colomon woof
00:56 tadzik yeah
00:57 tadzik so really, I don't even worry about json these days
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00:58 japhb (backlogging still) TimToady, would it help to have an index page on perl6.org for links to examples in various places, including a more useful (to us) index of Perl 6 code on RosettaCode?
01:00 japhb TimToady, FWIW, I was running Forest Fire under both Niecza and Rakudo yesterday, from one of your gists.  Under Rakudo it's interesting but slow.  Under Niecza, a smallish map is updated fast enough to look truly animated.
01:01 TimToady japhb: yes, an index with #perl6 tags would be useful
01:01 TimToady and yes, niecza runs it 20x faster than rakudo currently
01:02 japhb '#perl6 tags'?  Oh, you mean, links that go directly to that fragment ID.
01:02 TimToady yeah
01:02 TimToady kinda bums me that RC doesn't do that autmatically for language pages
01:02 japhb Yeah, that's what I'd meant.  OK, where is the repo for perl6.org?
01:02 japhb That is kinda odd.
01:03 japhb Isn't mikemol (an|the) admin there?
01:03 colomon TimToady: forest fire doesn't seem to work for me?
01:03 TimToady git@github.com:perl6/perl6.org.git
01:04 TimToady colomon: I haven't updated it with a working version yet, if you're talking about the RC version
01:04 colomon ah, yes
01:04 TimToady hang on a sec
01:04 colomon that would tend to cause problems.  :)
01:08 TimToady okay, the version there now should work under either niecza or rakudo
01:11 TimToady japhb: actually, they are #Perl_6 tags
01:12 japhb TimToady, gotcha.  I would have checked.  ;-)
01:13 colomon TimToady: works for me now, danke.
01:13 TimToady colomon: I particularly like the take // next idiom that gets rid of the conditional that used to be in the list comprehension
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01:14 colomon take-rw // next, you mean, right?
01:14 TimToady in this case, yes, but I was speaking one step more generically
01:14 colomon TimToady++
01:16 * colomon is trying to understand this code
01:29 sorear I am now replying to Jon Lang to say "Interval arithmetic _by default on all Nums_ is highly unlikely to ever happen"
01:29 sorear someone speak up if I'm being blatantly wrong here.
01:30 colomon +1
01:30 colomon If he wants it, he's free to implement it himself as a library.
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01:44 sorear I've decided to try being the voice of "that will never happen" on p6l
01:44 sorear maybe I can inject a little sanity
01:45 colomon It strikes me as a thankless job.  sorear++
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01:54 TimToady well, there are far too many people who *only* naysay, but sorear++ has done enough yeaysaying to have earned the right to naysay from time to time :)
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04:23 moritz \o
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04:24 moritz there is one sane-ish proposal hidden deep in that thread "How to make a new operator"
04:24 moritz that is, make sequence detection work with Rats and Ints, but not with Nums
04:25 moritz I'm not sure what to think of it
04:25 moritz thing is, Num *can* represent a huge number of commonly used values accurately
04:25 moritz and can do arithmetic without the dreaded/stigmatized floating point errors
04:28 moritz so I kinda think we played our part in preventing floating point errors by making Rat the default for numbers like 0.1
04:29 moritz and it's overly pessimistic to pessimize the sequence operator to barf on Nums
04:41 sorear hmm, I am trying to evaluate if David Green's messages would benefit from a reply
04:42 sorear the only intelligible reply I can make to the second one is "I like the name, it reminds me of pattern matching in the functional programming sense, which it kind of is"
04:42 sorear the first one I can only say ARGH HAVEN'T WE GONE OVER THIS A MILLION TIMES to
04:43 sorear also, infinite regress.  What's 1 + 1e-50 > 1 ?
04:44 sorear if that's an error, then what should happen with abs($x - 1) < 0.2 if $x happnens to be exactly 1.2e0?
04:50 moritz sorear: hey, I know the perfect reply for it
04:51 moritz n: multi infix:<==>($a, $b, :$prec) { abs($a-$b) < $prec }; say 1 == 2 :prec(5);
04:51 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«True␤»
04:54 moritz p6: say pi.WHAT
04:54 p6eval rakudo a4c78f, niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
04:54 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Rat␤»
04:55 * moritz replies
05:31 sorear moritz: "before taken into consideration before" - I think you forgot to finish writing a paragraph
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06:33 cogno perl6: say rx|a| || rx|b|
06:33 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/LO9SXq1ps8:1␤»
06:33 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«<Regex>␤»
06:33 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1226 (warn @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 234 (Mu.Str @ 10) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting…
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09:27 fsergot hi #perl6 o/
09:27 tadzik hi fsergot
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09:38 mikemol japhb: Yes, I'm an admin on Rosetta Code. Owner and chief admin, if you prefer.
09:39 mikemol japhb: Also, if you link to "Pagename#Perl%206", that should take the visitor directly to the anchor named "Perl 6", which should be at the top of any perl 6 code on RC.
09:44 masak morning, #perl6
09:44 * masak grumbles about DST
09:45 dalek perl6.org: f4744f1 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | source/community/rosetta_code.html:
09:45 dalek perl6.org: Add first ideas for Rosetta Code community page; will need discussion and expansion before being linked into rest of site.
09:45 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/f4744f145f
09:47 japhb mikemol, The above commit is the beginnings of a Rosetta Code launch page for perl6.org.  It's clearly not very filled in, but hopefully the concept is clear.  Once we fill it in more completely, hopefully it can be linked in and become visible to passerby.  :-)
09:48 moritz japhb: please don't use underscores in URLs
09:48 moritz either no joiner (just like rosettacode.org), or use a - instead
09:48 japhb Ah, sorry, got used to looking at all the wiki links on RC itself ...
09:48 fsergot hi masak o/
09:49 mikemol Yeah. MW is stupid about _ and " ". -.-
09:49 japhb moritz, would you like me to rename and push, or are you already doing so?
09:51 japhb I don't have the energy to do it tonight (I'm already up way later than I'd intended), but the CSS links on the site should be made relative, so that it is easier to see styled pages locally ....
09:53 * japhb doing the rename ...
09:54 dalek perl6.org: 035bdbc | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | source/community/rosetta (2 files):
09:54 dalek perl6.org: Rename rosetta_code.html -> rosettacode.html, as per moritz++
09:54 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/035bdbc659
10:01 japhb The update bot has pushed it: http://perl6.org/community/rosettacode.html
10:03 japhb Comments appreciated!  Before I spend too much energy filling it in, I want to be sure consensus is that I'm on the right track.  Or alternately, that someone goes in and fixes it while I sleep.
10:03 japhb Which I should do.  :-)
10:04 japhb Will backlog.  &
10:04 mikemol I can give feedback on RC's structure, but not much else.
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10:07 moritz japhb++ # I like it
10:07 moritz japhb: fwiw please use http://perl6.org/community/rosettacode as the URL, the .html is merely an implementation detail
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10:19 tadzik phenny: tell sorear is it normal that I have to run 'make' on niecza twice? See https://gist.github.com/2192705
10:19 phenny tadzik: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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10:41 colomon tadzik: do you have make set up to be parallel by default?
10:45 tadzik yes, I think that's the problem
10:48 colomon I suppose that means the Makefile issue is a missing dependency?
10:49 tadzik I think so
10:57 colomon tadzik: I've got what I think might be a solution, but looking at the Makefile I suspect it's not how sorear++ would do it.  Guess we should wait for him to wake up.
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11:20 masak japhb++ # http://perl6.org/community/rosettacode
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11:21 masak BruceZu: hi.
11:28 dalek perl6.org: ce406f7 | moritz++ | README:
11:28 dalek perl6.org: [README] update my IRC nick
11:28 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/ce406f7927
11:28 dalek perl6.org: 47ca947 | moritz++ | README:
11:28 dalek perl6.org: [README] link to URLs without .html extension
11:28 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/47ca94741c
12:12 felher japhb++ # nice new page :)
12:31 gfldex masak: is Web.pm supposed to build under cygwin?
12:35 masak gfldex: as far as I know, yes.
12:35 masak gfldex: but it's not under active development, so it may simply have bit-rotted.
12:35 gfldex ===SORRY!===
12:35 gfldex Dynamic variable %*VM not found
12:35 gfldex looks a little rottish to me :)
12:37 tadzik gfldex: try https://github.com/tadzik/web maybe
12:37 tadzik I did some effort to make it compile and run a while ago
12:37 * gfldex tries
12:38 gfldex tadzik: same result
12:40 tadzik okay, no idea then
12:40 tadzik phenny: pl en "bezoki jeleń"?
12:40 phenny tadzik: "eyeless deer" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
12:40 masak r: say %*VM
12:40 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Failure.new(exception => X::AdHoc.new(payload => "Dynamic variable \%*VM not found"))␤»
12:41 masak moritz: is it meant to .perl the Failure like that, rather than throw its exception?
12:47 gfldex is there any other module that does get('http://your.url/here') ?
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12:50 tadzik bailador does
12:51 tadzik https://github.com/tadzik/bailador
12:51 tadzik see a pastebin app for example: https://github.com/tadzik/Bailador/blob/master/examples/pastebin.pl
12:51 * gfldex starts to dance a little
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12:59 masak :)
12:59 REPLeffect joined #perl6
13:00 tadzik phenny: en es "gfldex starts to dance a little"?
13:00 phenny tadzik: "gfldex comienza a bailar un poco" (en to es, translate.google.com)
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13:00 felher Could someone take a quick look at http://paste.pocoo.org/show/570964/ before i mess up the spec? :)
13:06 colomon I might say "stringifies its arguments by calling .gist on them".
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13:08 GlitchMr perl6: qr/ a /
13:08 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Regex not terminated at /tmp/Kl0VNYHwzi line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> [32mqr/ a /[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤      'qr' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
13:08 p6eval ..rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix / instead at line 1, near ""␤»
13:08 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting "\\", variable name or "/"␤    at /tmp/x0lGrHDcs8 line 2, column 1␤»
13:08 GlitchMr Oh right... rx...
13:09 felher colomon: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/570969/ ?
13:10 colomon felher
13:10 GlitchMr But hint would be nice :P.
13:10 colomon felher++
13:10 felher colomon++ for the review :)
13:12 dalek specs: e338a6f | (Felix Herrmann)++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
13:12 dalek specs: [S32/IO] change say to use .gist instead of .Str
13:12 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/e338a6f414
13:12 gfldex i tried LWP::simple now and that doesn't work either
13:12 gfldex use LWP::simple;
13:12 gfldex Method 'at_key' not found for invocant of class 'Any'
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13:12 gfldex that error message could do with a little more line numbering
13:12 gfldex luckily i got some icecream so i don't bother to much
13:13 tadzik iirc a broken URI is a reason for broken LWP::Simple
13:13 tadzik https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/wiki/State-of-modules-on-nom should contain some pointers
13:14 gfldex oh well
13:14 gfldex i think i will retreat to wget then :)
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13:43 masak I just noticed that the methods <created modified accessed changed> never got ported to nom. probably due to lack of spectests.
13:43 masak psyde++ for picking that up.
13:44 tadzik they were never specced, afair
13:44 masak right. too bad, because they read really well in code.
13:44 tadzik aye
13:44 masak I'd like to reintroduce them, along with the also-unspec'd .copy and .move
13:44 tadzik iirc it was me who implemented them :)
13:44 masak where can I read more about constants such as pir::const::STAT_ISDIR?
13:45 masak that seems to be the piece missing for implementing them.
13:45 masak Beijing's implementation is in the form of `multi method created() { ::Instant.from-posix($.stat.createtime) }`
13:46 masak but nom's IO doesn't have a $.stat attribute (probably wise).
13:46 masak so we have to get the stat info through pir::stat__Isi
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13:57 masak blog post! \o/ http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/counting-t4-configurations
13:58 masak it's not *the* t4 blog post, but rather a pre-t4 post.
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14:10 masak walk &
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15:00 awwaiid masak, "[The elephant] looked small in comparison." ... genious quote. Wonderful way to explain how an exploration of the mind can be so engaging and powerful.
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15:16 masak awwaiid: thanks. :) it's so typical of me to be spending parts of my beach paradise vacation inside my notebook.
15:32 masak ooh: http://www.git-legit.org/
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16:12 GlitchMr ?^$value # now I'm confused...
16:13 GlitchMr perl6: print $^1
16:13 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/RM3KcichZG:1␤»
16:13 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "^"␤    expecting "::"␤    at /tmp/n5ZsGE_7_q line 1, column 8␤»
16:13 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/Uf3tRgP24B line 1:â�¤------> [32mprint [33mâ��[31m$^1[0mâ�¤â�¤Use of uninitialized value in string contextâ�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1222 (warn @ 3) â�¤  a…
16:13 GlitchMr perl6: print ?^1
16:13 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«False»
16:13 p6eval ..rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«True»
16:13 p6eval ..pugs:  ( no output )
16:13 GlitchMr True... what?
16:13 GlitchMr It's just for consistency, right?
16:14 masak what is for consitency? what is your question?
16:14 GlitchMr "?^" operator
16:14 masak no operator is there "just" for some reason.
16:14 benabik r: say ^1
16:14 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«0..^1␤»
16:14 benabik I think ?^1 is just ?(^1)
16:15 GlitchMr According to S03, it's boolean not...
16:15 benabik I could be wrong, I'll admit.
16:15 * masak submits rakudobug
16:15 GlitchMr ... I don't mean upto operator...
16:15 masak benabik: there is a prefix:<?^> operator.
16:16 masak but it might be missing in Rakudo.
16:16 sorear good * #perlt6
16:16 phenny sorear: 10:19Z <tadzik> tell sorear is it normal that I have to run 'make' on niecza twice? See https://gist.github.com/2192705
16:16 sorear good * #perl6
16:16 masak sorear! \o/
16:16 sorear colomon: hi.
16:16 benabik prefix:<?^> == prefix:<!>
16:16 benabik ?
16:16 sorear colomon: what I would do is to add a .NOTPARALLEL: at the end ;)
16:17 sorear colomon: what's your idea?
16:17 GlitchMr I couldn't find ?^ in tests...
16:17 sorear p6: say !(True | False)
16:17 p6eval rakudo a4c78f, niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«False␤»
16:17 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
16:17 sorear p6: say ?^(True | False)
16:17 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«any(Bool::False, Bool::True)␤»
16:17 p6eval ..rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«False␤»
16:17 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
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16:18 GlitchMr But that's weird... Perl 5 had medium-precedence and low-precedence logical  operators. Perl 6 adds high-precedence logical operators...
16:19 masak GlitchMr: the unique thing about the ops starting with ? is that they coerce to Bool.
16:20 GlitchMr I guess that concept of Perl 6 is "more of everything"...
16:20 masak as long as the additions carry their own weight, sure.
16:21 masak answering your original question, the ?^ ?& ?| operators are there partly for consistency with the ones starting with + and ~
16:21 GlitchMr Perl 6 grammar is full of various ambiguities, but I guess that "longest token matching" helps with those...
16:22 masak be careful with the term "ambiguity", which is something one *really* doesn't want in a grammar.
16:25 GlitchMr But I like certain parts of grammar
16:25 GlitchMr | '<<<<<<<' :: <?before [.*? \v '=======']: .*? \v '>>>>>>>' > <.sorry: 'Found a version control conflict marker'> \V* \v
16:25 GlitchMr :P
16:25 masak yeah, we were inspired there by clang ;)
16:25 GlitchMr Nice to see that Perl 6 blocks running programs with version control conflict markers...
16:25 masak clang++
16:26 * masak wonders if Rakudo does that yet...
16:26 GlitchMr Is it one of those "helpful messages" (well, I guess it's more helpful than just normal "Syntax error")
16:27 GlitchMr Or worse... pass...
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16:29 benabik masak: Rakudo seems to think it's a list.
16:30 GlitchMr Heh, I would like to see something like B::Deparse for Perl 6, but I guess that custom grammars would make utility like this nearly impossible...
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16:30 masak benabik: how unfortunate.
16:30 masak eggzeck: o/
16:30 moritz nom: say %*foo
16:30 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Failure.new(exception => X::AdHoc.new(payload => "Dynamic variable \%*foo not found"))␤»
16:30 eggzeck masak: o/
16:30 GlitchMr ... but... perhaps normal grammar debugger which would mark boundaries between tokens...
16:31 moritz masak: that's a an unthrown Failure, and you see its .gist, which happens to be the same as its .perl
16:33 masak moritz: ah. somehow I expected that .gist'ing a Failure would trigger its exception.
16:34 masak eggzeck: new around here? welcome!
16:35 moritz masak: that's doable too
16:36 eggzeck masak: Yes I am, thank you for the welcome! :-)
16:37 masak moritz: I'm not saying my expectation is correct -- just that that's what it is. IIUC the thing with Failures is that they should triggered basically as soon as they're "used", and .gist is using.
16:38 masak moritz: from a higher level, I'd rather see the actual error message than the Failure .gist, nice as the latter one is.
16:38 jnthn o/
16:39 moritz r: sub f { fail 'foo }; f() + f()
16:39 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2␤»
16:39 moritz r: sub f { fail 'foo' }; f() + f()
16:39 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu %_!)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:644␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2284␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/vXxhVZn3ZH:1␤␤»
16:39 moritz \o jnthn
16:39 moritz r: sub f { fail 'foo' }; f() ~ f()
16:39 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«foo␤  in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:8086␤  in method Stringy at src/gen/CORE.setting:673␤  in sub infix:<~> at src/gen/CORE.setting:960␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Pqb2jHJ5Kk:1␤␤»
16:39 sorear GlitchMr: are you deliberately making inflammatory comments?
16:40 sorear Is anyone here knowledgable on universal hashing?
16:41 sorear moritz: hi
16:41 moritz o/ sorear
16:41 GlitchMr OK, I had to look for "inflammatory" in dictionary...
16:42 GlitchMr Perhaps, I don't know...
16:42 sorear moritz: your last mail to p6l - I think you forgot to finish typing the second paragraph
16:42 sorear it ends with a sentence fragment
16:42 moritz sorear: oh, that happens to me, I should reread it
16:42 moritz sorear: thanks
16:44 Chillance joined #perl6
16:45 moritz sorear: replied
16:58 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:12 GlitchMr42 joined #perl6
17:21 japhb moritz, masak, felher: Thank you, glad you like the new page.  :-)
17:22 japhb moritz, Understood regarding no trailing .html in site links.
17:22 masak keep up the good work!
17:22 japhb Thank you, I think I will.  :-)
17:23 japhb Any nominations for "Community Favorites"?
17:23 japhb The left column is going to get rather long, so we should have a few more in the right column.
17:23 havenn joined #perl6
17:24 masak maybe http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Last_Fridays_of_year#Perl_6 ?
17:25 havenn_ joined #perl6
17:27 patspam joined #perl6
17:29 japhb Masak, yes, I think that qualifies.  :-)
17:30 masak I think TimToady will have further suggestions...
17:33 moritz masak: I'm now spectesting a fix for some of the Failure stuff
17:35 masak yay
17:44 havenn joined #perl6
17:44 cognominal joined #perl6
17:48 japhb What is our current preferred term for the group of languages including both Perls, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc.?
17:48 tadzik dynamic languages?
17:49 japhb tadzik, WFM
17:55 moritz you could also say "scripting languages", but "dynamic" sounds less negative
17:56 dalek perl6.org: 1527e4c | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | source/community/rosettacode.html:
17:56 dalek perl6.org: Add masak++'s suggestion of Last Fridays of Year to 'Community Favorites' list
17:56 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/1527e4c15e
17:56 dalek perl6.org: ced0a2e | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | README:
17:56 dalek perl6.org: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/perl6.org
17:56 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/ced0a2ec00
17:57 japhb moritz, yeah, "scripting languages" was what I was trying to avoid.
17:58 japhb OK, I'm off to try to find a new desk for my eldest.
17:58 japhb &
18:15 noteventime joined #perl6
18:16 sorear I think dynamic/scripting is a bit too broad
18:16 sorear Perl, Ruby, JavaScript, and Python are all very closely related
18:16 sorear witness C'Dent
18:19 spider-mario joined #perl6
18:39 GlitchMr perl6: print ([1,2,3;4,5,6]).perl
18:39 p6eval rakudo a4c78f, niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«[4, 5, 6]»
18:39 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "["␤    expecting expression or ")"␤    at /tmp/yW0cVYIUvR line 1, column 8␤»
18:39 Psyche^ joined #perl6
18:39 colomon sorear: my idea was on the technically wrong but probably (I think) mostly effective side -- change .fetch-stamp: FETCH_URL to be .fetch-stamp boot/obj/Run.CORE.ser: FETCH_URL
18:39 colomon sorear: I'd not heard of NOTPARALLEL before.  :)
18:47 havenn_ joined #perl6
19:02 * [Coke] catches up.
19:05 GlitchMr perl6: print (/|foo|bar|baz/).perl
19:05 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«regex _block1011(Mu , Mu %_!) { ... }»
19:05 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«regex ANON(Any \self) { ... }»
19:05 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«{regex}»
19:06 GlitchMr perl6: print ~/what/
19:06 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Regex()<instance>»
19:06 p6eval ..rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«_block1011»
19:06 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HANDLE>' tra…
19:06 GlitchMr oh wait... I forgot to use qr
19:06 GlitchMr *rx
19:06 spider-mario joined #perl6
19:12 fsergot joined #perl6
19:12 patspam joined #perl6
19:19 nwc10 joined #perl6
19:20 nwc10 so it seems that as fast as the masakbot reports bugs, the Pmbot fixes them.
19:22 nwc10 I suspect that reality is not as pleasing as this, but thanks for maintaining the illusion whilst you can.
19:22 nwc10 (but don't burn out)
19:23 masak there are also jnthnbot, and moritzbot, and sorearbot.
19:24 masak all with their special skills and features.
19:24 nwc10 "drinks beer"
19:24 mj41 joined #perl6
19:26 nwc10 although, really, I think it's more "makes you think that he's only drinking beer, when actually he's coding hard"
19:28 sorear not I.
19:29 nwc10 all beer is actually an illusion? :-)
19:29 dalek rakudo/typed-ex-hash: d34720f | moritz++ | src/core/Failure.pm:
19:29 dalek rakudo/typed-ex-hash: make Failure throw more consistently
19:29 dalek rakudo/typed-ex-hash: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d34720f641
19:29 moritz oops, wrong branch agian
19:29 dalek rakudo/nom: 06b4eca | moritz++ | src/core/Failure.pm:
19:29 dalek rakudo/nom: make Failure throw more consistently
19:29 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/06b4eca92a
19:32 Psyche^ joined #perl6
19:34 moritz .u eject
19:34 phenny U+23CF EJECT SYMBOL (⏏)
19:36 MayDaniel joined #perl6
19:43 moritz nom: say X.WHO.keys
19:43 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«AdHoc Constructor Routine Hash Buf IO Comp OS Syntax Pod NYI OutOfRange Signature Placeholder Attribute Redeclaration Undeclared Phaser Obsolete Parameter Method Bind Value Declaration Anon Augment Package␤»
19:44 moritz nom: my $a = X::Phaser::PrePost.new(); say 'alive';
19:44 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«alive␤»
19:44 moritz nom: my $a = sub { fail X::Phaser::PrePost.new() }.(); say a.WHAT
19:44 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/4u2qCkQHfw:1␤»
19:44 moritz nom: my $a = (sub { fail X::Phaser::PrePost.new() }).(); say a.WHAT
19:44 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&a' called (line 1)␤»
19:44 moritz nom: my $a = (sub { fail X::Phaser::PrePost.new() }).(); say $a.WHAT
19:44 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
19:45 moritz nom: my $a = (sub { fail X::Phaser::PrePost.new() }).(); say $a.payload
19:45 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Precondition failed␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:8091␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2250␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2248␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:822␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/eEnHIuCYHb:1␤␤»…
19:45 moritz nom: my $a = (sub { fail X::Phaser::PrePost.new() }).(); say $a.payload.WHAT
19:45 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Precondition failed␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:8091␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2250␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2248␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:822␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/CcyuVwYlxn:1␤␤»…
19:45 moritz eeks
19:45 masak oops.
19:47 masak 'the jibe operator'. yeah, I could probably live with that.
19:47 masak "it doesn't smartmatch, sire." -- "it doesn't jibe, dude."
19:49 * moritz hasn't even bothered to read that mail.
19:49 moritz should I?
19:50 masak nah.
19:50 colomon worst kind of bikeshedding
19:50 masak let p6l rename our operators if they want. ;)
19:50 masak see if that helps.
19:50 moritz nom: say '3 foo' + 'bar'
19:50 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu %_!)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:644␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2284␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2284␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/P3WwKSsoVM:1␤␤»…
19:50 moritz evalbot rebuild nom
19:50 p6eval OK (started asynchronously)
19:56 dalek Rebuild of nom complete.
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: 008dd40 | moritz++ | src/core/ (3 files):
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: start to fail() with typed exceptions from Str.Numeric
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: somewhere along the way it still stringifies though :(
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/008dd40862
20:01 moritz jnthn: any reason why that Q:PIR block inside &fail (in Failure.pm) isn't just   try die $value; $ex = $!;  ?
20:06 masak r: try die "whee!"; say $!; say "stayin' alive!"
20:06 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«whee!␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Hw9fxnHW92:1␤␤stayin' alive!␤»
20:07 masak r: try die "ah " x 4; say $!; say "stayin' alive!" xx 2
20:07 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«ah ah ah ah ␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/PHYt4PGp2L:1␤␤stayin' alive! stayin' alive!␤»
20:07 masak :P
20:07 masak r: try die "ah " x 4; say $!.payload; say "stayin' alive!" xx 2
20:07 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«ah ah ah ah ␤stayin' alive! stayin' alive!␤»
20:07 * masak is so easily amused
20:11 nwc10 left #perl6
20:26 moritz nom: use fatal; try +'5 foo'; say $!.WHAT
20:26 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«X::AdHoc()␤»
20:26 moritz evalbot rebuild nom
20:26 p6eval NOT OK (maybe a rebuild is already in progress?)
20:29 moritz nom: class A is Exception { }; my $x = fail A.new; say $x.exception.WHAT
20:29 p6eval rakudo a4c78f: OUTPUT«X::AdHoc()␤»
20:32 moritz nom: class A is Exception { }; use fatal; try fail A.new; say $!.WHAT
20:32 p6eval rakudo 008dd4: OUTPUT«A()␤»
20:35 jnthn moritz: May be hysterical raisons.
20:36 jnthn moritz: e.g. from before mls++ patched a bunch of exception handling issues.
20:37 NamelessTee joined #perl6
20:40 sorear masak: I'm starting the thankless task of trying to be the naysayer on p6l.
20:40 moritz sorear: only do it where it makes sense; don't exhaust yourself
20:40 sorear now, I wish there were a good p6l equivalent of /me stares at Damian and yary blankly
20:41 dalek roast: d720afa | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
20:41 dalek roast: test that Str numification error message survives through infix:<+>
20:41 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d720afa0b6
20:43 masak sorear: what moritz said. I'd rather we try our best to make use of the well-meaning but silly people on p6l than alienate them by repeatedly pointing out their obvious irrelevance to them ;)
20:44 moritz I do wonder if, at some point, I should compose a politely formulated "raising the bar" mail
20:44 moritz where I point out that we've raised the bar to change basic stuff
20:45 moritz and that, if you propse changes with far-reaching consequences, we'll only take you seriously if you've prototyped it (which is usually quite possible, if you really care)
20:45 masak it's been pointed out a few times already.
20:45 moritz but then again it's probably again just wasted time
20:45 masak possibly.
20:45 moritz masak: happy with the error message in https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=111960 ?
20:46 masak the people who engage in p6l bikesheds/pie-in-the-sky moments do so because they aren't aware Perl 6 has moved on to a more solid phase of matter.
20:46 Transformer joined #perl6
20:46 masak moritz: ah, I was wondering what you were using the ⏏ symbol for. moritz++
20:47 moritz for ejecting people from p6l. Silently :-)
20:49 Transformer left #perl6
20:54 havenn joined #perl6
20:56 masak I had a different "raising the bar" thought earlier today. but it's not fully formed yet.
20:57 masak it's vaguely shaped like creating a prize/stipend/grant for people who take charge of clearing up fuzzy parts of the spec.
21:00 jnthn "Delete stuff! Get paid!"
21:01 moritz I have a commit like this coming up. Except the "Get paid!" part :-)
21:02 masak no, the "delete stuff" we seem to do fairly well ourselves. it's the "spec I/O" and "spec threading" that needs a push.
21:02 masak imagine if we could somehow nudge p6l into helping us there -- constructively, I mean.
21:02 masak these are still parts of the spec that need a bit of bikeshedding.
21:03 moritz one could do fine experimenting with IO classes and roles in rakudo
21:04 moritz one could even do 99% of the prototyping out-of-core to avoid long recompilation phases
21:04 moritz maybe even 100%
21:05 moritz hey, you can write your own sub say, and have it picked up by all of your programs. How cool is that?
21:09 masak I know!
21:10 moritz and you can even add your own lexical IO class
21:10 moritz and so on
21:10 masak I once thought that would be a really cool use case for macros, but... turns out you can do it with just a sub.
21:17 patspam joined #perl6
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: 34c3e35 | moritz++ | src/core/Failure.pm:
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: replace a wad of PIR code with Perl 6; also preserves the argument type of &fail
21:24 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/34c3e35285
21:31 fsergot good night #perl6 o/
21:33 jnthn yay, more Q:PIR banished
21:34 tadzik I like the 'try die'
21:40 dalek roast: 2f179c1 | moritz++ | S04-exceptions/fail.t:
21:40 dalek roast: test that fail() can handle typed exceptions
21:40 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2f179c1212
21:49 patspam_ joined #perl6
21:50 patspam joined #perl6
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: 57a6818 | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (3 files):
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into nom
21:58 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/57a6818729
21:59 derrazo joined #perl6
22:01 masak heh, a merge. :)
22:02 pmichaud yeah, sorry about that.
22:02 pmichaud I forgot to push earlier and then ....
22:02 sorear moritz: How does raising the bar apply to the idea of renaming smartmatching to doorfrozzling?  Its doability is self-evident, as is the fact that it will break no code whatsoever
22:04 jnthn ...somebody suggested renaming it to doorfrozzling?!
22:04 * jnthn knows what a door is but has no idea how to frozzle one...
22:06 * masak decides that "doorfrozzling" is perfect as a coinage for "fruitlessly discussing unimportant language trivia on p6l"
22:08 jnthn .oO( The ideas never enter the house of spec, they just frozzle at the door )
22:10 masak "I'm sorry, but this thread is just so full of doorfrozzle."
22:12 sorear jnthn: no, but they've suggested everything else
22:12 sorear I thought Damian Conway was supposed to be somewhat sane, but he just dashed my hopes by proposing 'jibe' :|
22:14 colomon doorfrozzle.  doorfrozzle. Doorfrozzle!  (tune: Bicycle by Queen)
22:16 masak sorear: I liked 'jibe', but the whole thing sort of presupposes that there's a problem somewhere that needs solving. which I don't really see.
22:16 masak colomon++
22:25 fgomez joined #perl6
22:30 jnthn Dinner time &
22:42 NamelessTee joined #perl6
22:53 masak 'night, #perl6
23:51 tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
23:56 joe_everyman joined #perl6

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