Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-04-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 jnthn Only 2 days of vacation left /o\
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04:46 * sisar was hoping for a good April fool's joke about perl6
04:57 sisar (well, the Wikipedia page was not a disappointment)
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07:43 sorear defines alternating finite automata, lays the necessary groundwork for regexes with & in O(2^2^n) time : http://www.geocities.com/stockmeyer@sbcglobal.net/alt.pdf
07:44 sorear also contains a proof of the PSPACE-completeness of (a problem equivalent to) quantified boolean formulas, which is why I was looking for this
07:45 sorear ... mainly linking this because some months ago I conjectured that regexes with & were not in O(2^2^....^2^n) time for any finite power tower
07:45 sorear nice to know I was wrong... still, I'm not about to implement 2-EXPTIME algorithms in niecza D:
07:54 samlh sorear: sorry for disappearing for ~a month now
07:54 phenny samlh: 28 Feb 19:16Z <sorear> tell samlh I am curious what version of Mono.Cairo.dll you have
07:54 samlh sorear: and i'm likely to disappear again
07:55 sorear Who are you?
07:55 samlh sorear: sorry, a windows user from a while back
07:58 samlh sorear: just wanted to let you know that qx/notepad.exe/ and run("c:/windows/notepad.exe") now work on .net
07:59 sorear sweet
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08:45 fsergot morning #perl6 o/
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09:14 moritz p6: say (1 - 0.5**128) == 1
09:14 p6eval rakudo 8d4f0c, niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«True␤»
09:14 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
09:14 moritz p6: say (1 - 0.5.FatRat**128) == 1
09:14 p6eval niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«False␤»
09:14 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Rat: "&FatRat"␤    at /tmp/pTPkOlmXVC line 1, column 6-25␤»
09:14 p6eval ..rakudo 8d4f0c: OUTPUT«True␤»
09:15 moritz r: say (0.5.FatRat**128).WHAT
09:15 p6eval rakudo 8d4f0c: OUTPUT«FatRat()␤»
09:15 moritz r: say (1 - 0.5.FatRat**128).WHAT
09:15 p6eval rakudo 8d4f0c: OUTPUT«FatRat()␤»
09:15 moritz r: say (1 - 0.5.FatRat**128).perl
09:15 p6eval rakudo 8d4f0c: OUTPUT«FatRat.new(340282366920938463463374607431768211455, 340282366920938463463374607431768211456)␤»
09:15 tadzik r: say (1 - 0.5.FatRat**128).Num.perl
09:15 p6eval rakudo 8d4f0c: OUTPUT«1e0␤»
09:15 moritz oh, infix:<==> converts to Num
09:16 moritz so, missing candidates. Easy to fix.
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09:47 masak good antenoon, #perl6
09:55 masak 0.5.FatRat is another case of method casting. should we always write FatRat(0.5) instead?
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11:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 3218a72 | moritz++ | src/core/Rat.pm:
11:13 dalek rakudo/nom: ==-compare rats directly
11:13 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:13 dalek rakudo/nom: before we would go through Num, which made (1-0.5.FatRat**128) == 1
11:13 dalek rakudo/nom: produce True, falsely
11:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3218a72091
11:15 dalek roast: 9d639e1 | moritz++ | S32-num/fatrat.t:
11:15 dalek roast: check that == for FatRat does not go through Num
11:15 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9d639e19a9
11:19 masak moritz++
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11:24 moritz note that the other comparison operators still suffer from the same problem
11:25 masak worth submitting a rakudobug over, you think?
11:27 masak I held back submitting the above one, because I had the feeling that you were already fixing it ;)
11:28 moritz sure, submit away
11:28 * masak submits rakudobug
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11:38 * masak is looking at PAST and trying to fit the pieces together in his head
11:50 masak hm, mystified by the following: PAST::Val, and a bunch of other well-known PAST node types, don't seem to have a definition anywhere within the perl6/nqp repository.
11:51 masak are PIR and nqp flexible enough that they recognize a namespace even if it hasn't been declared anywhere?
11:51 masak and if so, what handles all the PAST::Val.new and PAST::Val.ACCEPTS calls everywhere?
11:52 moritz masak: I think they are inside the parrot repo
11:52 moritz masak: compilers/pct/src/PAST/{Node,Compiler}.pir
11:56 masak ah. 'course.
11:56 masak moritz++
11:56 masak the ability to re-open any namespace from any PIR file constitutes a very "powerful" feature ;)
11:57 masak but it's no worse than Perl 5, I guess.
11:57 moritz aye
11:58 masak ah, yeah. this is the stuff.
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12:07 masak looks like the contents of compilers/pct/src/PAST/{Node,Compiler}.pir, plus some things from the nqp repo's src/PAST/NQP.pir, make up what would need to be ported to QAST.
12:08 masak it's code describing the node layout, and a bunch of as_post methods to compile PAST nodes to POST.
12:15 masak heh, Java 7 allows the syntax "catch (IOException|SQLException ex) {" to avoid having to repeat the same catch clause with only the exception type differing.
12:15 masak Java 7 also introduces 0b binary literals.
12:22 moritz junctions!
12:23 tadzik :)
12:23 arnsholt Very limited junctions though =)
12:25 gfldex java junction: http://wiki.openttd.org/images/d/d0/3way_basic3.png
12:25 gfldex per6 junction: http://wiki.openttd.org/images/c/c0/QuadBranchMergeJunction.png
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12:26 moritz https://www.perl-community.de/bat/poard/thread/17283 # German perl forum
12:28 tadzik eek
12:29 gfldex the aprils fool so far is from a german blog that never had a comment function
12:29 gfldex he added one with very advanced captcha
12:29 gfldex http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=b189f277
12:29 gfldex it's worth to hit shift-reload a few times
12:31 gfldex *the best
12:39 * masak laughs at this
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13:41 masak p6: enum Month <_ January February March April>; say Month("April")
13:41 p6eval niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«April␤»
13:41 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&enum"␤    at /tmp/B2FCGdwNJJ line 1, column 1-44␤»
13:41 p6eval ..rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:6244␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/1NdbbJ5bjT:1␤␤»
13:41 masak hm. is this rakudobug known?
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13:46 [Coke] I also am experience feather networking issues this past week or so.
13:48 leont FYI: http://bioperl.org/pipermail/bioperl-l/2012-April/036407.html
13:49 tadzik seems legit
13:50 leont I'm not sure what to think about it though
13:50 tadzik he could have posted it on a better date :)
13:50 tadzik and, TPF is not on gsoc anyway :/
13:50 leont But Open Biology Foundation is ;-)
13:51 tadzik oh, nice :)
13:51 masak "implement Bioperl in Perl 6" sounds like a larger task than a GSoC task.
13:51 leont s/Biology/Bioinformatics/
13:51 leont masak: exactly
13:51 masak mind you, one might get off to a good start.
13:51 leont I mean, I'm sure perl6 is learnable in that amount of time, but I do assume that takes time too
13:52 masak I'd advise this person to get into contact with #perl6 ASAP.
13:52 leont I'm not sure how much useful stuff one would get done
13:52 leont Yeah, and #bioperl too…
13:52 masak indeed, learning Perl 6 is not instantaneous. though it's quicker to learn with today's documentation than with last year's.
13:53 tadzik well, is it?
13:53 masak learning to write *idiomatic* Perl 6, which one would perhaps expect from a project like this, takes more than a summer :)
13:53 masak ...but then again, "good start" and all that.
13:53 masak with TDD and refactoring, most projects can be lifted from the limitations of an initial design and faltering first steps of implementation.
13:54 leont Well, it's important to get foundations right for a project like this before people depend on it
13:54 leont BioPerl is scary Perl 5 from the mid-late 90s
14:00 leont Also, BioPerl as a whole is more than 2000 modules. You can't reimplement that with a dozen GSOC students. It would be fairly minimal in that regard.
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14:11 masak right.
14:11 masak also, there's a bit of prior art, as far as I know.
14:12 masak pyrimidine hangs out here quite a bit. I seem to recall he wrote some bioperl6 code already.
14:12 masak probably thought about the design a bit, too.
14:18 arnsholt IIRC pyrimidine has a fair bit of bioperl6 code already
14:21 leont From a quick look, that code is mostly perl5 translated literally to perl6
14:21 Juerd [Coke]: Past week, really? We know about network issues the past 2 days.
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15:16 tadzik yay, LWP::Simple now installs on nom
15:20 masak this should make lichtkind happy.
15:20 moritz phenny: tell lichtkind that LWP::Simple now works again on newest rakudo
15:20 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when lichtkind is around.
15:20 tadzik (is panda-installable too)
15:24 * masak makes ready to get on a train
15:28 [Coke] Juerd: perhaps I am projecting.
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16:13 lichtkind cheers
16:13 phenny lichtkind: 15:20Z <moritz> tell lichtkind that LWP::Simple now works again on newest rakudo
16:14 lichtkind phenny: tell moritz thanks
16:14 phenny lichtkind: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
16:20 moritz .
16:20 phenny moritz: 16:14Z <lichtkind> tell moritz thanks
16:22 moritz it's a real nuisance to write out all the comparison ops for rats
16:23 moritz they all go like this: multi infix:<op>(Rational:D $a, Rational:D $b) { $a.numerator * $b.denominator op $b.numerator * $a.denominator }
16:23 moritz then another (Rational:D, Int:D) and a (Int:D, Rational:D) variant
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16:23 moritz and I have to write those for <, <=, >, >=, <=>
16:24 moritz I guess that could be done with macros
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16:31 lichtkind moritz: its a module i have to install? kwp doesnt seems to be incore
16:31 lichtkind lwp
16:31 lichtkind but i recompile rakudo anyway :)
16:31 moritz lichtkind: yes, needs to be installed. panda can help you.
16:34 masak hello-on-a-train, #perl6!
16:34 tadzik hello masak
16:34 * masak , with totally undiminished enthusiasm for IRC-ing in a moving vehicle
16:35 masak moritz: I was thinking "macros" also, when I read your complaint above. I think the interesting question, though, is: can it be done with *AST* macros?
16:36 masak and if not, which primitives are we lacking that would allow that?
16:36 moritz we'd need to be able to add holes into identifiers
16:36 moritz but a textual macro would work in that simple case
16:38 masak sure it would. I'm just looking for ways to extend the niche of AST macros at the expense of textual macros.
16:38 lichtkind can you tell me about that failong subtest about loading?
16:42 lichtkind i think i will also ask so question about postcircumfix and alike, while this is easy there are other cat i not quite understand
16:43 moritz ENOCONTEXT
16:43 moritz which failing subtest about loading?
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16:47 lichtkind i ran make test on raudo
16:48 lichtkind and got t/02-embed/01-load.t ............... Failed 1/1 subtests
16:48 Araq what's perl6's way of providing genSym?
16:48 lichtkind what is gensym?
16:49 Araq a way to introduce a unique symbol for hygenic macros
16:53 lichtkind and by symbol you mean a operator?
16:53 Araq by symbol I mean symbol
16:54 Araq identifier
16:54 lichtkind we have hygenic macros
16:55 Araq good
16:55 Araq how do they work?
16:55 lichtkind http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/macros-what-are-they-really
16:55 lichtkind a short overview
17:03 masak that blog post doesn't really address gensymming, though.
17:04 lichtkind yes but it explains that macros produce an ast
17:04 masak Araq: the short and slightly unsatisfactory answer is that careful separation of lexical scopes replaces gensymming in Perl 6.
17:04 lichtkind and this gets weaved into the  program ast by compiler
17:04 masak at least by our current best understanding.
17:05 masak lichtkind: right, but there are lots of subtleties, starting with the fact that an AST must have a "context" much like a closure does.
17:06 masak Araq: at the end of http://masak.org/carl/gpw-2012-macros/talk.pdf there is an elucidation about how the lexical scopes conspire to make gensymming unnecessary.
17:07 masak unfortunately, there is no audio track with the PDF :) please ask more if things are not clear.
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17:19 moritz olvvvvvv
17:19 moritz -
17:20 masak o/ Ronja :)
17:20 moritz I wonder why the wikipedia page on hygienic macros doesn't mention careful scoping as a solution
17:20 moritz \o
17:20 masak that struck me as odd too.
17:20 masak maybe it won't work :P
17:21 masak or maybe Wikipedia has, I dunno, some sort of omission.
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17:23 moritz if it works, it seems indeed to be the cleanest solution
17:25 masak aye.
17:25 masak when I get to the point where it works in Rakudo, I might add the alternative to the list in the article ;)
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17:39 Araq what is the alternative, masak?
17:44 masak well, let's make an example to make things concrete.
17:44 Araq careful scoping is no substitute for gensym
17:45 masak macro foo($x) { quasi { my $a = 1; say $a; say {{{$x}}} } }; my $a = 2; foo($a)
17:45 masak there are two variables called '$a' -- the one in the quasi block, and the one in the mainline.
17:46 masak generally, we'd need to gensym the one in the quasi block so that it won't collide with the one in the mainline.
17:46 masak but not in Perl 6.
17:47 Araq yeah but what if the macro wants to inject a new variable that is destructed at scope end (C++ like RAII)?
17:47 masak we generally handle destruction at scope end with a LEAVE phaser.
17:48 masak though it's still a little unclear to me which block the LEAVE phaser latches on to -- the quasi block, or the block in the mainline.
17:49 masak seems to me we would want it to latch on to the block in the mainline at least sometimes. this would imply that phasers in quasi blocks are "deferred" until macro application time, just like type declarations etc.
17:52 masak as to variable injection in general (with or without RAII), see the discuission on the COMPILING:: namespace in S06.
17:53 Araq link?
17:53 masak COMPILING:: grants you a kind of "un-hygiene", even for declarations if you want.
17:53 masak http://perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#Macros
17:54 masak it's just that hygiene is switched on by default, because we think it's a nice default :)
17:55 lichtkind tadzik: while isntalling panda i got use of uninitialized value of type Command in string context
17:55 tadzik lichtkind: yeah, I know. I have no idea where that comes from :)
17:55 masak and gosh, I sure hope that careful scoping *is* a substitute for gensymming. :) but maybe we were talking past each other, because there certainly are ways in which it wouldn't be in other languages. in Perl 6, it is.
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17:56 lichtkind tadzik: also the failing test in the fetcher?
17:56 tadzik lichtkind: if you look closely, there's no failing test
17:56 tadzik just a git error message that I don't know how to silence
17:58 Araq *shrug* I like gensym and dirty macros and scope injection
17:59 Teratogen dirty macros?
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18:00 Araq un-hygienic macros
18:00 lichtkind tadzik: allright but i have to restart to isntall modules?
18:01 masak Teratogen: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro for details.
18:01 masak Teratogen: the distinction doesn't really exist in C, though ;)
18:01 Araq brb
18:02 masak (I'm not aware of any gensymming in C. all C macros that I recall have been unhygienic.)
18:03 lichtkind tadzik: yes your right bit now i got: src/gen/Metamodel.pm
18:03 lichtkind i mean Incorrect pre-compiled version of src/gen/Metamodel.pm loaded
18:04 tadzik (in a cross-platform way, that is)
18:04 tadzik lichtkind: oh, right
18:04 tadzik lichtkind: find ~/.perl6 -name '*.pir' -delete
18:05 tadzik there's something seriously wrong about module precompilation in rakudo
18:09 masak there is? please go on.
18:10 moritz it leads to weird errors and segfaults when loading some of the modules
18:12 masak yes, but what is it that's wrong?
18:13 masak and what RT ticket is this and how come I missed it? :)
18:14 lichtkind tadzik: thanks a lot it works now soemthing without error
18:14 lichtkind lord and behold i might even write a perl 6 module :)
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18:16 masak it's 'lo and behold' -- the 'lo' is an old shortening of 'look' ;)
18:17 lichtkind moritz: there is still failing tests it escape.t
18:17 moritz well, lichtkind has an idiosyncratic interpretation of every language I know :-)
18:17 moritz lichtkind: which module?
18:18 lichtkind LWP::Simple
18:18 lichtkind the one we talked about
18:18 moritz lichtkind: what revision are you on?
18:19 lichtkind moritz: you mena rakudo version?
18:19 moritz lichtkind: no, LWP::Simple
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18:20 lichtkind moritz: i think panda fetches the newest out of git?
18:20 masak making it, um, anaphora, I think.
18:20 masak (because both "lo" and "behold" eĉpress the same idea)
18:20 masak express*
18:22 moritz lichtkind: I just cloned URI newly from git, and didn't get any test failurs
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18:26 sorear good * #perl6
18:26 moritz good *, sorear
18:26 lichtkind moritz: how did you install ?
18:26 moritz lichtkind: I didn't install it. I cloned it from git, and ran 'make test'
18:27 moritz previously I installed the prerequisites and removed all .pir files from ~/.perl6/lib
18:28 masak sorear! \o/
18:28 masak sorear: how's C<handles> going?
18:29 lichtkind moritz: whats the secret of that pir removing?
18:29 lichtkind i almost ran outa tuit for today
18:29 Teratogen when Araq said "dirty macros" I immediately thought "macro porn!"
18:29 lichtkind Teratogen: cs wise it is
18:31 moritz lichtkind: precompiling breaks stuff in weird ways :(
18:31 moritz at least right now
18:33 sorear masak! \o/
18:33 sorear masak: I looked at Rakudo's implementation, that's about all I've done so far
18:33 * sorear would kind of like to get niecza back over 100% this week... but that's probably not realistic.
18:34 Teratogen when Araq said "dirty macros" I immediately thought "macro porn!=jyukih
18:34 Araq "macro porn"? omg
18:34 Teratogen \,m. `17,6vg888bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbc6666666666666bbc6f456RFDRT6/?
18:34 masak sorear: ok.
18:35 Teratogen SORRY ABOUT THAT
18:35 Teratogen err
18:35 Teratogen sorry about that
18:35 Teratogen ferret on keyboard
18:35 Teratogen little varmint
18:35 masak Teratogen: I'm going to have to ask you to calm down. :/
18:35 sorear Teratogen++ # novel excuse
18:36 Teratogen it was my pet ferret Archimedes, masak!@
18:36 Teratogen he likes to get up on the keyboard and just kind of sit on it
18:36 benabik Teratogen: The many lines of apology is more irritating than the one line of random text.
18:36 Teratogen mashing keys as he does
18:36 sorear masak: Yesterday Teratogen was saying that when ey gets bored, ey makes noise on #perl6 to entertain emself
18:36 Teratogen sorear, hush
18:36 masak sorear: aye, I saw that.
18:36 tadzik masak: (precompilation) if we know what's wrong, it probably wouldn't be already :)
18:36 tadzik masak: but I know this since GPW. Loading precompiled SVG::Plot (for example) segfaults
18:37 masak Teratogen: we love to see you make progress as someone who contributes positively to the channel. right now you're not showing signs of that.
18:37 masak tadzik: I wasn't really aware until now.
18:37 Teratogen I'll try to do better masak
18:38 masak tadzik: it sounds familiar, but I haven't tried to precompile modules in a while, and so I haven't been affected.
18:38 * masak hugs Teratogen
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18:41 lichtkind moritz: ok i lay the problem down for now just want to finish grammar categories and special var
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18:54 brrt in rakudo, is there a branch that does implement declared array dimensions?
18:55 moritz no
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19:03 tadzik did you tackle the freenode riddle today?
19:03 masak heh. I thought I needed a dynamic variable in a module, but it turned out I just needed a lexical variable in that module. I wonder what made me confused in that particular way.
19:04 masak seems to me now that dynamic variables are mostly useful in situations that resemble traversal, or recursion.
19:06 * masak de-trains
19:09 moritz masak: agreed about recursion and dynamic vars
19:11 moritz or what STD.pm6 and rakudo's Grammar.pm use is to do some tiny bits of configuration on the calling location for stuff that goes deep into the call stack and that isn't worth passing around as objects all the time
19:18 lichtkind masak: whos idea was it to lowercase pod?
19:19 tadzik Damian's
19:19 tadzik I think
19:19 lichtkind and you know the reason?
19:19 lichtkind damian is still around?
19:20 sorear damian is impossible to get rid of!
19:20 lichtkind here it is a good thing :)
19:20 Araq implicit parameters seem a better solution than dynamic vars
19:21 sorear Araq !
19:21 tadzik I believe they serve different purposes
19:21 sorear Hi ! Haven't seen you fo a while
19:21 Araq well thanks, hi
19:22 lichtkind tadzik: only reason for me was it just looks better ebcasue special var have to stick out more and if pod do it too there is tto much uppercase and since is got even more part  of the lang it should be lowercase like rest of keywords
19:35 dalek joined #perl6
19:35 tadzik damn, feather is completely unusable these days
19:36 Util joined #perl6
19:38 sorear Juerd: is your company still being ddos'ed?
19:40 spider-mario woah, macros in rakudo?
19:42 spider-mario perl6: macro hello($name) {quasi {say "Hello { {{{$name}}} }!"}}; hello "Perl"
19:42 p6eval niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1226 (warn @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 234 (Mu.Str @ 10) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/…
19:42 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Undeclared variable: ("$name",MkPad (padToList [("$_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Scalar"), pe_proto = <Scalar:0x7f46576b5b59>, pe_flags = MkEntryFlags {ef_isContext = True}, pe_store = <ref:0x7f46576b5091>}),("@_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Array"), pe_proto = <Ar…
19:42 p6eval ..rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«Hello AST<3843861497533412442>!␤»
19:42 spider-mario so, $name is an AST
19:43 spider-mario that makes sense
19:43 MayDaniel joined #perl6
19:43 sorear o/ spider-mario
19:44 Araq perl6: macro hello($name) {quasi {hello "Hello { {{{$name}}} }!"}}; hello "Perl"
19:44 p6eval niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1226 (warn @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 234 (Mu.Str @ 10) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/…
19:44 p6eval ..rakudo 3218a7:  ( no output )
19:44 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«pugs: *** Cannot bind to non-existing variable: "$name"␤    at /tmp/xHkOsrr4f1 line 1, column 1␤»
19:45 spider-mario macros can’t call macros yet?
19:45 spider-mario or is it just recursion that’s not handled?
19:45 dalek rakudo/nom: 984dc7c | moritz++ | src/core/Rat.pm:
19:45 dalek rakudo/nom: comperator ops for rats and rats and ints
19:45 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/984dc7caa5
19:46 spider-mario perl6: macro test1 {quasi {say "test1"}}; macro test2 {test1}; test2
19:46 p6eval niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Action method quasiquibble not yet implemented at /tmp/DgvqYWCRV2 line 1:�------> [32mmacro test1 {quasi {say "test1"}[33m�[31m}; macro test2 {test1}; test2[0m��Action method quote:quasi not yet implemented at /tmp/DgvqY…
19:46 p6eval ..rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find sub &say␤»
19:46 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«test1␤*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting bare or pointy block construct, ":" or identifier␤    Macro did not return an AST, a Str or a Code!␤    at /tmp/c9bzkAvbPm line 2, column 1␤»
19:46 spider-mario Could not find sub &say
19:46 spider-mario ???
19:46 tadzik spider-mario: I don't think quasi is there yet
19:46 spider-mario oh
19:47 spider-mario quasi did work on a more complex example
19:47 spider-mario perl6: macro test1 {quasi {say "test1"}}; macro test2 {quasi {test1}}; test2
19:47 moritz t/spec/S06-macros/macros-d1.t has the macro tests that rakudo currently passes
19:47 p6eval pugs, rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«test1␤»
19:47 p6eval ..niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Action method quasiquibble not yet implemented at /tmp/3BgyLngsBN line 1:�------> [32mmacro test1 {quasi {say "test1"}[33m�[31m}; macro test2 {quasi {test1}}; test2[0m��Action method quote:quasi not yet implemented at /t…
19:47 moritz anything that's not in there is likely to fail
19:47 moritz spider-mario: if you start your queries with 'rakudo:' instead of 'perl6:
19:47 spider-mario yes, sorry
19:48 moritz ... instead of 'perl6:' you can avoid a lot of extra output
19:48 spider-mario I always forget then realize
19:48 moritz :-)
19:48 moritz r: macro a() { quasy { say "foo" } }; a
19:48 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find sub &quasy␤»
19:48 moritz r: macro a() { quasi { say "foo" } }; a
19:48 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«foo␤»
19:48 spider-mario but appearently, pugs is able to run the code too
19:49 spider-mario oh, I get it
19:49 moritz r: macro a() { quasi($x) { say "foo"; $x } }; a say 'foo'
19:49 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $x is not declared␤at /tmp/kBBUtSXrGj:1␤»
19:49 spider-mario say was executed at build time
19:49 spider-mario which explains why it was not found
19:49 moritz but it should be available at compile time
19:49 moritz r: BEGIN say 'foo'
19:49 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«foo␤»
19:49 spider-mario oh, indeed
19:49 spider-mario macro test {say "hello"}; test
19:49 spider-mario oops
19:50 spider-mario r: macro test {say "hello"}; test
19:50 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«hello␤===SORRY!===␤Macro did not return AST at line 1, near ""␤»
19:50 spider-mario r: macro test {say "hello"; quasi {}}; test
19:50 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«hello␤»
19:50 spider-mario hm…
19:50 spider-mario r: macro test1 {say "hello"; quasi {}}; macro test2 {test1}; test2
19:50 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«hello␤===SORRY!===␤Macro did not return AST at line 1, near ""␤»
19:51 spider-mario r: macro test1 {say "hello"; quasi {}}; macro test2 {test1()}; test2
19:51 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«hello␤===SORRY!===␤Macro did not return AST at line 1, near ""␤»
19:51 moritz r: macro a() { quasi { 1 +1 } }; say a
19:51 p6eval rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«2␤»
19:51 spider-mario what am I missing?
19:52 spider-mario pugs: macro test1 {say "hello"; quasi {}}; macro test2 {test1}; test2
19:52 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«hello␤»
19:52 spider-mario pugs gets it right
19:52 spider-mario and surprisingly quickly :D
19:52 timotimo huh, i can do "next" in a function that has no loop in it, if it's called from some place that has a loop?
19:55 timotimo i could just try instead of asking, actually
19:55 hugme joined #perl6
19:55 tadzik :)
19:56 timotimo that's pretty neat
19:56 timotimo i suppose the same mechanism makes "take" work in any function called transitively from inside a gather block
19:57 timotimo interestingly, next without a loop around it is not a problem to rakudo
19:57 timotimo p6: next
19:57 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot use this control structure outside a 'loop' structure␤    at /tmp/YLNP69ye1w line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
19:57 p6eval ..niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Illegal control operator: next␤  at /tmp/Bl9JeABqqZ line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3840 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza…
19:57 p6eval ..rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«next without loop construct␤  in block <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:303␤  in block <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:366␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/JaHkEfxacA:1␤␤»
19:58 timotimo p6: sub skip_some($a) { next if $a %% 2 }; skip_some(0); skip_some(1); skip_some(2); say "oh my";
19:58 p6eval niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Illegal control operator: next␤  at /tmp/2HqxGCY3RP line 1 (skip_some @ 4) ␤  at /tmp/2HqxGCY3RP line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3840…
19:58 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "%% 2"␤    expecting operator or "}"␤    at /tmp/crhaRZEgMA line 1, column 32␤»
19:58 p6eval ..rakudo 3218a7: OUTPUT«next without loop construct␤  in block <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:303␤  in block <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:366␤  in sub skip_some at /tmp/B8gGQv2uBg:1␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/B8gGQv2uBg:1␤␤»
19:59 timotimo p6: sub skip_some($a) { next if $a %% 2 }; for ^9 { skip_some($_); say "oh my, $_"; }
19:59 p6eval rakudo 3218a7, niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«oh my, 1␤oh my, 3␤oh my, 5␤oh my, 7␤»
19:59 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "%% 2"␤    expecting operator or "}"␤    at /tmp/kQrh4NTe2E line 1, column 32␤»
19:59 timotimo mhm, mhm.
19:59 timotimo my rakudo doesn't complain if i just type "next", but i suppose there's a subtle difference between its repl and p6eval that causes this?
20:00 tadzik supposedly
20:00 tadzik REPL is probably just a loop, so next is likely to just work :)
20:00 timotimo oh, haha :D
20:00 timotimo that makes sense
20:01 timotimo yup, typing last makes the repl quit
20:01 timotimo that's amusing :)
20:02 tadzik :)
20:02 tadzik I like the feeling when something happens to work exactly the way you imagined it would
20:02 timotimo i've got that surprisingly often with perl6 so far
20:04 spider-mario I can confirm that
20:05 spider-mario hopelessly writing some code, running it
20:05 spider-mario and “what, it actually works?”
20:05 timotimo still, the amount of different "stuff" that one has to know to be good at perl6 (probably the same for perl5) is huge when compared to python, which is what i spent most of my time with in the last years
20:06 Araq hu? bugs in the REPL are intuitive?
20:06 timotimo python has much less syntax, most things that would have syntax in perl6 would have a function in python instead
20:06 spider-mario I guess being fluent at Perl 6 can take you further
20:07 timotimo i feel the same way, spider-mario, that's why i want to learn :)
20:08 timotimo Araq: it's intuitive that if the repl is just simply a repl, that the control exceptions you'd cause with "next" or "last" would cause the rep-loop to react
20:09 timotimo i guess fixing that is a simple matter of adding a CONTROL block in the rep-loop to complain about control exceptions coming from the eval statement without being handled
20:11 lichtkind is there a .add method?
20:12 Araq timotimo: I got that, just sayin'; it *is* a bug, albeit a minor
20:12 tadzik lichtkind: add what to what?
20:12 timotimo sure
20:14 dalek ecosystem: b0b2813 | (Pawel Pabian)++ | META.list:
20:14 dalek ecosystem: Added GeoIP database support (currently Mac OS X only).
20:14 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/b0b2813968
20:15 tadzik oh, interesting
20:17 tadzik bbkr: does simple "foo.so" not work on OSX?
20:17 tadzik or foo.dynlib
20:18 * tadzik wonders if there could be a macro for this
20:18 lichtkind tadzik: i mean alias to +
20:18 tadzik hmm
20:18 tadzik r: say 5.&infix:<+>(7)
20:18 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«12␤»
20:18 tadzik \o/
20:19 bbkr tadzik: the point is that NativeCall cannot fallback to .dylib, it always wants .bundle, so I have to hardcode it until https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/issues/7 is resolved
20:20 tadzik I see
20:20 bbkr tadzik: after that i will remove also hardcoded path and it should work on any OS
20:20 tadzik I have a feeling there's a need for a mechanism which will make it easier to resolve things like this in modules
20:23 d4l3k_ joined #perl6
20:24 tadzik possibly something along "use Alien; sub foo is native(Alien::lib<foolib>)
20:24 tadzik and it will resolve things automagically. Could be doable
20:27 bbkr Native Call does it. is native("libGeoIP") works if I recompile library to .bundle on OS X and works also on Linux with .so files.
20:29 spider-mario perl6: my $name-with-hyphens = 42; say $name-with-hyphens
20:29 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&with"␤    at /tmp/DYunYTKIoZ line 1, column 1-27␤»
20:29 p6eval ..rakudo 984dc7, niecza v16-17-g648c49b: OUTPUT«42␤»
20:29 tadzik oh, I see
20:30 bbkr so NativeCall is only "one issue away" from being truly multiplatform :)
20:30 tadzik I'm afraid the issue lives in nqp
20:31 tadzik or even in a dyncall library
20:33 bbkr I'm not experienced enough to debug this one on my own. If jnthn will reject issue on NativeCall repo I will report in NQP :)
20:34 tadzik I'm quite sure it's dyncall which lacks this
20:34 Araq what's NQP?
20:34 tadzik 3rdparty/dyncall/buildsys/bsdmake/osx.bsdmake
20:34 tadzik 29:DLL_SUFFIX= .dylib
20:34 timotimo not quite perl, it's the language in which a lot of rakudo is written
20:34 benabik Araq: Not Quite Perl, the subset of Perl 6 that Rakudo is implemented in.
20:34 tadzik Araq: Not Quite Perl, a subset of Perl 6 in which the core Rakudo is implemented
20:35 tadzik oh wait, that's unrelated
20:35 tadzik (dynlib)
20:35 Araq a static subset of perl6?
20:35 benabik Araq: It's not static, the object system is just simpler.
20:36 Araq so it's quite unlike PyPy's implementation language?
20:37 tadzik bbkr: does dlopen("foo") Just Work for .bundle in OSX?
20:37 tadzik I think it's just dlopen() doing the hard work after all
20:38 lichtkind so damian said no reason
20:40 bbkr tadzik: DLL_SUFFIX lies :) NativeCall wants to fetch .bundle by default
20:40 tadzik bbkr: yeah, that DLL_SUFFIX was for building dyncall itself
20:40 tadzik bbkr: does `man dlopen' on OSX say anything about suffixes?
20:41 tadzik bbkr: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/3rdparty/dyncall/dynload/dynload_darwin.c#L54
20:41 tadzik it seems that it's just doing dlopen(), no magic
20:41 constantined left #perl6
20:43 bbkr dlopen only mentions it can "can load dynamic libraries and bundles", nothing about suffixes
20:46 brrt joined #perl6
20:48 masak moritz: yeah, dynamic vars turn into a kind of couterweight to long parameter lists in recursion/traversal contexts. sort of the same trick as nesting subs and using outer vars, but in time rather than in space ;)
20:53 masak lichtkind: lower-casing pod was part of the whole TheDamian/tadzik/jnthn/pmichaud/masak hallway discussion at YAPC::EU 2011.
20:54 masak lichtkind: IIRC, Damian seemed to think that a variable like $=pod wasn't extraordinary enough to merit uppercase.
20:54 tadzik I was probably against this :P
20:55 tadzik If I wasn't I'd probably implement it right away to please Damian :)
20:55 masak well, you didn't prevent TheDamian from making the change then, or me from committing it later ;)
20:55 tadzik who am I to stand against you ;) Especially you Both
20:55 masak lichtkind: if you look at the commit I linked you to, you'll notice that a few things got lower-cased.
20:56 lichtkind yes i did
20:56 masak tadzik: I'll disregard the implication that I somehow posess Damian-like powers :P
20:56 lichtkind im mostly woth tadzik in this
20:56 lichtkind but i like the way it looks
20:56 lichtkind it just doesnt feel right syntactically
20:56 masak well, both of you have write access to S26, I presume.
20:56 Araq you know, there is this thing called "case insensitivity"
20:56 tadzik masak: why do you think I *still* haven't turned #= into #|? :P
20:56 masak Araq: :D
20:57 masak tadzik: that one *must* be laziness, though, because that's an improvement ;)
20:57 Araq it was a pretty good idea back in the days
20:57 lichtkind what is #= ?
20:57 tadzik masak: I still don't like this :)
20:57 masak lichtkind: buddy, you're in for a treat :)
20:57 Araq but then unfortunately unix did win
20:57 tadzik masak: but I didn't oppose very loud for I have no better idea
20:57 tadzik but again, I think having two kind of special comments is too much
20:57 masak Araq: I suddenly get the feeling you're not joking.
20:58 masak Araq: could be trolling, though.
20:58 Araq and now people think it's a feature that they need to care about details like that ...
20:58 tadzik lichtkind: it's the documenting comment
20:58 tadzik r: say ''
20:58 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«␤»
20:58 tadzik I needed the ␤
20:58 Araq indeed, I'm not joking
20:58 spider-mario r: say
20:58 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«␤»
20:58 * Araq likes case insensitivity
20:58 lichtkind shit
20:58 tadzik r: #= I'm a hoarse! ␤ sub foo {}; say &foo.WHY
20:58 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«Block::Declarator.new(WHEREFORE => sub+{<anon>} foo() { ... }, config => ().hash, content => Array.new("I'm a hoarse!"))␤»
20:58 tadzik r: #= I'm a hoarse! ␤ sub foo {}; say &foo.content
20:58 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«Method 'content' not found for invocant of class 'Sub+{<anon>}'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/bCkcInX1WW:2␤␤»
20:58 masak Araq: I would argue that case sensitivity is a feature, yes.
20:59 tadzik bleh
20:59 tadzik r: #= I'm a hoarse! ␤ sub foo {}; say &foo.WHY.content
20:59 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«I'm a hoarse!␤»
20:59 masak spider-mario: that's a known rakudo regression.
20:59 masak std: say
20:59 p6eval std 5740094: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/u1msSXksw0 line 1:�------> [32msay[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:01 107m�»
20:59 benabik ...  p6 eval maps ␤ to newline?
20:59 spider-mario is it?
20:59 tadzik lichtkind: you can document ALL THE THINGS with this
21:00 spider-mario it’s actually the behavior I’d expect
21:00 masak spider-mario: yes, it is. see the STD output.
21:00 tadzik still. Go lives with just prefix-ish '//'. I think we _could_ live with just one kind of comment
21:00 tadzik and I'd prefer that one to be #=, like $= in $=pod
21:01 tadzik once I'll get a good idea, then actually implement it so you can't touch me and re-spec it agin
21:01 tadzik ahahaahaha!
21:01 Araq MASAK: no, not you, the uppercased one
21:01 Araq ;-)
21:01 tadzik like an evil overlord
21:01 masak tadzik: please please please prepare a spec patch, and we can talk over it.
21:01 tadzik masak: what I mean (or think), is that we probably don't need two kinds of doc-comments
21:02 tadzik but to prove this, I'd have to present a working solution
21:02 masak Araq: feels to me in a very short while you've conflated case-insensitivity of (a) file names, (b) variable names, (c) IRC nicks. this does not help your argument.
21:02 snearch joined #perl6
21:03 masak tadzik: all you need to present is a sufficiently clear S26 patch.
21:03 tadzik masak: I'd prefer to be sure that it'll make sense :)
21:03 Araq which argument? I have not even given an argument yet, just an example
21:03 tadzik so far it's mostly "I think this would be the easiest way" discussion
21:04 Araq an argument would be something like "psychology has proven that most if not all people remember the sound of a word, and not its spelling"
21:04 tadzik I'm thinking of having a "look, I got this working and it's the best" ace in my hand
21:05 crappyguy joined #perl6
21:05 masak tadzik: good. I think the spec shouldn't remain in a state where the guy implementing it feels uncomfortable.
21:06 sorear tadzik: I'm pretty sure th having two kinds of doc comments thing was my idea; I stole it from Haddock
21:06 masak and if it all moves in the direction of increased simplicity (which my changes did too, by the way!), all the better.
21:06 * tadzik looks up Haddock
21:06 masak yeah, I remember the discussion starting around Haddock and its up/down doc comments.
21:06 benabik Two kinds of doc comments?
21:07 tadzik yeah, #= and #|
21:07 masak benabik: one sitting before a declaration, the other after it.
21:07 benabik Oh, how odd.
21:07 tadzik Haddock is a food fish.
21:07 tadzik Captain Haddock, a cartoon character in the The Adventures of Tintin series
21:07 tadzik duckduckgo is awesome
21:07 benabik tadzik: Haddock is a documentation system for Haskell
21:07 masak it's also a Haskell documentation standard.
21:07 tadzik yeah, I see
21:08 sorear Once upon a time, S26 had only one #= comment, and S26 had disambiguation rules that rivalled P5's implicit object syntax in confusingness
21:08 tadzik that's correct
21:08 lichtkind ah so its a comment that ends in $=pos?
21:08 masak yeah. that's why I said that my changes were a simplification.
21:08 lichtkind ah so its a comment that ends in $=pod?
21:08 tadzik "you can put #= before, after, or somewhere else and the compiler will be smart"
21:08 tadzik lichtkind: not really. It ends in the object being documented
21:08 tadzik see my example above
21:09 masak I'm assuming tadzik doesn't want to take us back to disambiguation land ;)
21:09 tadzik r: #= I'm a hoarse! ␤ sub foo {}; say &foo.WHY.content
21:09 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«I'm a hoarse!␤»
21:09 tadzik nonono
21:09 tadzik remember, I'll be the one to get that working
21:09 masak that's the beauty of it :)
21:12 brrt joined #perl6
21:12 dalek joined #perl6
21:16 aloha joined #perl6
21:16 masak in other news, I don't like feather much right now.
21:17 tadzik yeah, I considered moving to my other shell
21:21 fgomez joined #perl6
21:22 fsergot good night o/ :)
21:36 lichtkind good night
21:36 masak 'night
21:36 lichtkind i mean fsergot
21:37 lichtkind i go when work is done :)
21:37 Araq fits your nick ;-)
21:38 masak :)
21:38 lichtkind im a machine :)
21:41 * masak .oO( lichtkindbot )
21:42 Araq wenn du um 4 noch hier bist, glaube ich dir
21:42 Araq (if you're around still at 4am, I'll believe you)
21:45 * tadzik considers marrying net::irc::bot to MuEvent
21:48 ponbiki joined #perl6
21:49 lichtkind araq: i slept 7o 8 hours the last 2 nights , now im resting and going early
21:49 lichtkind what is muevent?
21:49 tadzik it's a feelalike of AnyEvent I wrote once
21:50 lichtkind beside we have now a online study group
21:50 masak phenny: fr en "meuvent"?
21:50 phenny masak: "move" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
21:50 tadzik see https://github.com/tadzik/MuEvent/blob/master/example.pl
21:50 tadzik ohh, that makes it a pretty good name
21:52 masak r: macro test1 {say "hello"; quasi {}}; macro test2 {test1}; test2
21:52 p6eval rakudo 984dc7: OUTPUT«hello␤===SORRY!===␤Macro did not return AST at line 1, near ""␤»
21:52 masak huh.
21:53 masak spider-mario: thanks for finding this. I'll add it to the test suite, and find out what the underlying cause might be.
21:55 lichtkind looks like we can switch  $~MAIN in #perl6 to german
21:56 wolfman2000 joined #perl6
21:56 benabik It won't be that less comprehensible for most people.  :-)
21:56 masak gute Nacht, #perl6
21:57 Araq yeah and that's quite surprising
21:58 Araq since you can't code in perl with a german keyboard layout
22:00 lichtkind gut anch mäsak :)
22:00 lichtkind nacht
22:01 lichtkind i really hardly get around the name since masak means trickster in czech
22:02 d4l3k_ joined #perl6
22:02 lichtkind but its a fishy slang word reaching from darling (mazan) into other meanings
22:02 lichtkind *
22:03 Util joined #perl6
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22:08 sorear lichtkind: studying what?
22:09 fgomez joined #perl6
22:12 lichtkind esoteric stuff :)
22:14 lichtkind its a bit wannabe but hey you have to start where you are right :)
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22:46 Juerd I've replaced a network cable that we suspect to be faulty
22:46 Juerd Hopefully this solves the connectivity issues
22:50 d4l3k_ joined #perl6
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22:55 lichtkind is the cat statement_control for things like $a if ...; ?
23:00 sorear no, that's statement_mod_cond
23:00 sorear statement_control is for prefix forms like 'for ... { ... }'
23:01 lichtkind thank you
23:10 lichtkind and statement prefix seems to be same as modifier or not?
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23:52 Juerd Well, that wasn't it, then :(
23:52 Juerd Plugged the cable into another switch port.
23:57 Araq good night guys
23:57 Araq left #perl6
23:58 lichtkind good night

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