Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-04-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:31 japhb_ phenny, tell jnthn In the if block at https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4de6f1d16b#L0R1217 , it looks like 'if @name' is a redundant test in the second if.
00:31 phenny japhb_: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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01:48 timotimo o_O
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02:47 raiph phenny tell lichtkind FYI: open source git-backed-wiki written by/for github. Supports Markdown | ReST | etc. More details at https://github.com/features/projects/wikis.
02:47 phenny raiph: 08 Apr 13:18Z <lichtkind> tell raiph the topics of tablets 2 can be made in the same wash :)
02:50 raiph phenny: tell lichtkind FYI: open source git-backed-wiki written by/for github. Supports Markdown | ReST | etc. More details at https://github.com/features/projects/wikis.
02:50 phenny raiph: I'll pass that on when lichtkind is around.
03:05 mucker p6: my $long…list = 5;
03:05 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/JzHA9q6vzb:1␤»
03:05 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "\8230"␤    expecting word character, "?", "!", trait, "=", infix assignment, term postfix or operator␤    at /tmp/6JbKzV1R3B line 1, column 9␤»
03:05 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Confused at /tmp/9Os0KqFOZb line 1:�------> [32mmy $long[33m�[31m…list = 5;[0m��Parse failed��»
03:08 mucker p6: say "∴ foo" if 1;
03:08 p6eval pugs, rakudo 3bd91f, niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«∴ foo␤»
03:11 sorear mucker: you can only use alpanumeric characters in names, with a small number of exceptions
03:11 mucker p6: my $αβ = "5";
03:11 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $αβ is declared but not used at /tmp/fUGmtIuDEb line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m$αβ = "5";[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
03:11 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo 3bd91f:  ( no output )
03:12 mucker by alphanumeric do you mean alphabet in any language and numeric in any language ?
03:12 mucker or just [A-Za-z0-0]
03:13 geekosaur as defined by the Unicode spec
03:14 geekosaur (your Greek example worked, you got a defined-but-not-used warning)
03:14 mucker gr8 .. just wanted to confirm with the blead versions
03:16 mucker is niecza an experiment ? or is it a serious attempt at perl6 on clr ?
03:17 geekosaur "yes" (I think it started as the former and is now the latter but don't quote me)
03:17 sorear that's about where I'd put it too
03:17 sorear if you told me when I started that I'd be working on this thing for two years I'd have laughed
03:17 mucker awesome :) two competing implementations
03:17 geekosaur ...ohai
03:18 sorear ?
03:18 geekosaur three if you count pugs, then there's perlito as well.
03:18 benabik Two and two halves?
03:18 geekosaur that's a major part of the intent of perl6, that there isn't a single implmentation
03:23 * mucker reading the unicode spec (and I thought only lawyers would wade through 1000 pages of jargon)
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03:23 benabik mucker: If we don't hear from you, we'll send out the search dogs.  ;-)
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03:24 sorear Better 1000 pages of jargon than the alternative...
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03:24 sorear most language specs are that long or longer; there's a reason we call people "language lawyers"
03:25 * mucker tried reading common lisp spec in one sitting. had hallucinations the next day.
03:26 sorear You should have read R5RS instead
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03:26 sorear It's the odd one, only around 50 pages
03:27 mucker I Plan on reading the r7. Should be out soon me hopes.
03:28 sorear I hear they abandoned the shortness that made r5 so awesome
03:28 benabik Wasn't R6RS not worthwhile?
03:29 mucker r6 was huuge. they splan on making r7 in the spirit of r5
03:29 mucker But no matter what the spec, every fucking language is a FAIL at building a CPAN.
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03:38 * mucker the horror ! the horror !
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05:05 raiph phenny: tell lichtkind for example, something along the lines of https://github.com/raiph/tablets/wiki
05:05 phenny raiph: I'll pass that on when lichtkind is around.
05:07 moritz \o
05:19 raiph moritz: hi and goodnight
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08:13 tadzik o/
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08:26 mucker \o
08:34 grondilu perl6:  my (Int $a, Int $b);
08:34 p6eval pugs, rakudo 3bd91f:  ( no output )
08:34 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/9PTOqdZrh2 line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m(Int $a, Int $b);[0mâ�¤  $b is declared but not used at /tmp/9PTOqdZrh2 line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m(Int $a, Int $b);[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
08:34 grondilu How can I define a bunch of variables of the same type, without repeating the type?
08:36 mucker use an array ?
08:36 sorear p6: my Int ($a, $b) #OK
08:36 p6eval pugs, rakudo 3bd91f, niecza v15-6-gefda208:  ( no output )
08:36 sorear looks like that is at least valid syntax
08:37 tadzik p6: my Int ($a, $b); $b = "foo";
08:37 p6eval pugs:  ( no output )
08:37 p6eval ..rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$b'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/mQXHoO3AJ9:1␤␤»
08:37 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/r5gr4kRIPR line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy Int [33mâ��[31m($a, $b); $b = "foo";[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
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08:54 grondilu sorear: indeed.  Silly of me not to have tried that.
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09:11 fsergot Hi #perl6 o/
09:14 tadzik hello hello
09:17 sorear o/
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09:56 fsergot nom: say (my $s = "abc");
09:56 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«abc␤»
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12:01 mucker is there a way to to have non-alphnumeric character in a variable name by some escape mechanism like using a \
12:01 mucker before the uni character ?
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12:35 masak_ mucker: I think you can always quote variable names and thus put anything you want in them.
12:35 masak_ (hi, #perl6)
12:35 arnsholt mucker: Don't think so. But identifiers can contain more than [a-zA-Z_0-9]
12:35 masak_ mucker: then there's the apostrophe-dash exception.
12:36 masak_ r: say my $foo'bar-akbar = 42
12:36 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«42␤»
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12:39 arnsholt r: use NativeCall; class Foo is repr('CStruct') { has Mu $.obj; }; say('alive');
12:39 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find NativeCall in any of: lib, /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst2/lib/parrot/4.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, .␤»
12:40 masak_ std: my Int ($a, $b, Str ($c, $d)) #OK
12:40 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
12:41 fglock I think it possible to add random unicode using string interpolation in variable names with the $::("xyz") syntax
12:41 masak_ there's an interesting tension between "wow, declaration syntax and signature syntax are unified. that's pretty neat" and "g'ah, this doesn't apply at all! what were we thinking?"
12:42 masak_ fglock: yeah, that's what I was groping for above.
12:49 arnsholt Well, that was odd
12:50 arnsholt Compiler internals hacking is always interesting =)
13:04 arnsholt jnthn: *prod*?
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13:13 jnthn arnsholt: Did you mean "star:" ?
13:13 phenny jnthn: 00:31Z <japhb_> tell jnthn In the if block at https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4de6f1d16b#L0R1217 , it looks like 'if @name' is a redundant test in the second if.
13:15 arnsholt jnthn: Indeed
13:15 arnsholt But I've come across something else
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13:16 arnsholt Should REPR_name_to_id be available from a REPR?
13:16 jnthn arnsholt: May be challening to call from a dynamic REPR.
13:17 jnthn arnsholt: You have the name available in REPR(obj)->name though, iirc.
13:17 arnsholt It is. I get a run-time error from the linker when the code tries to call it =)
13:17 jnthn Yeah, not surprised
13:18 jnthn That's why certain things are passed in explicitly to dynamic representations.
13:18 arnsholt Right
13:18 jnthn What do you need the ID for, ooc?
13:18 arnsholt Checking for the REPR of a member in the CStruct REPR
13:18 arnsholt To handle CPointer/CArray appropriately
13:19 jnthn You could always compare the name.
13:19 arnsholt Troo
13:20 masak arnsholt: what're you building?
13:20 jnthn Zavolaj improvements, it seems :D
13:20 arnsholt I'd like to be able to embed CPointer/CArray in CStruct
13:21 jnthn Embedding a pointer to a CStruct in a CStruct shouldn't be hard either if you're doing those bits :)
13:21 jnthn .oO( I heard you liked CStrcuts... )
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13:22 arnsholt Oooh, that's an idea as well
13:22 arnsholt Possibly the best place to start, come to think of it
13:22 jnthn They're relatively similar.
13:22 jnthn Pointers are the easiest.
13:23 arnsholt 'k
13:23 jnthn Since you need never keep any "shadow references" around.
13:23 jnthn To be clearer
13:23 jnthn my $x = SomeCStruct.new();
13:23 jnthn my $y = SomeCStruct.new();
13:23 jnthn $x.lemonade = $y;
13:24 jnthn Here we have a choice
13:24 jnthn The memory in this case is managed.
13:24 arnsholt Right
13:24 jnthn That is, if we don't have the GC trace the reference to $y through $x, we'll end up with the underlying struct being freed
13:25 arnsholt Yup
13:25 jnthn But the O(1) marshalling means that what we store inside the CStruct of $x (in the bit of the memory we pass off to C land) has to be the pointer to *inside* of $y
13:25 jnthn So we have to keep $y around too
13:25 arnsholt Definitely
13:25 jnthn Pointers lack this complexity
13:26 jnthn Because they just...point somewhere
13:26 jnthn There's no memory being managed.
13:26 arnsholt So, $y has to go in child_objs, and $y.actual_c_struct into $x's struct layout, no?
13:27 jnthn Right
13:27 jnthn Something like that.
13:27 arnsholt And similarly for CArray and CPointer
13:27 jnthn CArray, certainly
13:27 jnthn CPointer - good question.
13:28 jnthn I guess if we want to be able to write stuff like
13:28 jnthn my $x = SomeCStruct.new();
13:28 jnthn my $p = pointer-to($x);
13:28 jnthn Then yeah, we need to consider it having a child_obj too
13:29 jnthn I've only really handled CPointer in the case it's retunred from a library and thus we aren't managing the memory of the thing it points to.
13:29 jnthn arnsholt++ # digging in to this fun :)
13:30 arnsholt Yeah, this is a layer or two of abstractions below what I usually do, so it's quite enlightening =)
13:30 arnsholt (Interestingly, this can be tied in with the webby trend of what people want to do for the Oslo hackathon)
13:32 arnsholt Since I'd like to talk to Mongrel2, which works over ZMQ
13:33 jnthn ooh :)
13:34 arnsholt The idea was to abstract away the whole deal of talking HTTP yourself
13:34 arnsholt So that a Perl 6 webapp can focus on logic rather than HTTP and such
13:35 arnsholt But that requires being able to talk to Mongrel2 in the first place
13:35 arnsholt Thus, Zavolaj hacking
13:36 jnthn Happy yak is happy.
13:36 jnthn .oO( I'm naming this yak "Shawn" )
13:37 arnsholt Hmm. Maybe I'll rename my local branch shawn =D
13:38 * masak .oO( And this over here I'll dub "Shorn" )
13:39 felher moritz: ICMP ECHO REQUEST
13:42 tadzik hugme: add sergot to ecosystem
13:42 hugme tadzik: sorry, I don't know anything about project 'ecosystem'
13:42 tadzik hrm
13:43 fsergot What is the ecosystem? :)
13:43 tadzik https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem
13:43 tadzik list of our modules lives here
13:43 * masak popularized the term
13:44 tadzik I like it
13:44 masak the idea being that yes, we find bugs directly in the compilers, but many bug reports actually flow in from the set of community modules.
13:44 jnthn masak things about everything in terms of bug reports :P
13:44 jnthn *thinks
13:44 masak the more we can *harness* that and do things like regularly smoke the ecosystem, the sooner we'll fix those bugs.
13:45 moritz hugme: add sergot to perl6
13:45 * hugme hugs sergot. Welcome to the perl6 github organization
13:45 moritz felher: ICMP ECHO RESPONSE
13:46 masak jnthn: bug reports are merely the digital reification of community love :)
13:46 fsergot \o/ !
13:48 felher moritz: https://gist.github.com/2384508 | if you don't have any objections, you use/apply the Exception.Bool patch. I can push the spectest-patch myself i think, since i have a perl6 commit bit :)
13:50 felher moritz: i did do make spectest after the patch and the only things it breaks are the things that i patched in the spectest-patch
13:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 1fa8fb5 | (Felix Herrmann)++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
13:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Make Exception.Bool return True
13:50 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
13:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1fa8fb5841
13:51 moritz felher: no objections
13:51 felher \o/ :)
13:53 dalek roast: 0eba93a | (Felix Herrmann)++ | S (4 files):
13:53 dalek roast: rewrite tests that rely on Exception to return False on .Bool
13:53 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0eba93afbb
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13:59 masak the part of dalek that finds the lowest common denominator between changed paths shouldn't split things in the middle of a path fragment.
14:00 moritz
14:01 masak Ronja, that you?
14:02 tadzik :)
14:05 moritz it was her, yes
14:06 masak funny, it's what I imagine a young child would say, too.
14:06 masak ".ä!"
14:07 moritz .u �
14:07 phenny U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER (�)
14:07 jnthn If anybody wants to spectest the name-cleanup branch and confirm it looks clean, I may as well merge it. I can do the changes beyond that fairly undisruptively in nom.
14:09 dalek roast: 4d5e023 | jnthn++ | S02-names-vars/variables-and-packages.t:
14:09 dalek roast: Remove test for removed SUPER and fix tests that check you can't declare the pseudo-packages.
14:09 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4d5e02332b
14:09 arnsholt Grumblegrumble
14:10 arnsholt jnthn: NQP and Rakudo are too thorough in making sure the versions match up =)
14:10 mucker probably a silly thing, but can I send eval to a perl6 bot in private ?
14:10 masak yes, you can.
14:10 jnthn mucker: /msg p6eval r: say "yay"
14:11 jnthn arnsholt: ;)
14:11 mucker (:
14:11 jnthn Actually testing the branch will be a pain because we'll get confused with the exceptions fixes that just went in, whihc it doesn't have.
14:11 moritz jnthn: I'll first run a spectest with felher++'s changes, then with name-cleanup
14:11 jnthn I'll just merge it and hope I didn't miss anything :)
14:11 moritz (I planned to merge the branch locally before spectesting
14:13 jnthn moritz: Am running that build/test here
14:14 jnthn moritz: I just reviewed the commits...there really should be nothing platform specific in there.
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14:17 lichtkind moritz: ok gitit failed it broke syntax almost like socialtext, i will go on with html
14:17 phenny lichtkind: 02:50Z <raiph> tell lichtkind FYI: open source git-backed-wiki written by/for github. Supports Markdown | ReST | etc. More details at https://github.com/features/projects/wikis.
14:17 phenny lichtkind: 05:05Z <raiph> tell lichtkind for example, something along the lines of https://github.com/raiph/tablets/wiki
14:18 lichtkind k will test gollum too
14:18 mucker p6: @::("long…list") = 1,2,3; print @::("long…list"); #following fglocks advice ! n works fine
14:19 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«Symbol '@::long…list' not found␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:8229␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2256␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2254␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:828␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/VqeLeBgU7a…
14:19 p6eval ..niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«123»
14:19 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Undeclared variable: ("@long\226\128\166list",MkPad (padToList [("$_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Scalar"), pe_proto = <Scalar:0xf6ed9505>, pe_flags = MkEntryFlags {ef_isContext = True}, pe_store = <ref:0xf6ede2a5>}),("@_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Array"), pe_pro…
14:19 mucker … is unicode for ...
14:20 * mucker also going to install n on my sys
14:20 masak I think it's just NYI in Rakudo.
14:25 masak interesting quip in an interesting thread. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3840145 -- discuss.
14:26 moritz if Eliezer succeeds, then yes :-)
14:26 * jnthn wonders why it works on n.
14:27 jnthn I mean, looks like an undeclared variable to me.
14:27 masak I sure hope that Elezier won't have to do *all* the heavy lifting himself :)
14:27 moritz r: my $a::('!!'); say $a::('!!)
14:27 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot declare a variable by indirect name (use a hash instead?)␤at /tmp/IZAN79oGtz:1␤»
14:28 tadzik p6: my %a = any('a', 'b') => 3; say %a<b>; say %a<a>
14:28 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unmatched key in Hash.LISTSTORE␤  at /tmp/fQcWzhuQiS line 0 (mainline @ 1) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3842 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3843 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza…
14:28 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤␤»
14:28 p6eval ..rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«3␤Any()␤»
14:28 moritz anyway, that can't work in the general case, only when the expression is constant-foldable
14:28 tadzik nah, almost :)
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14:29 moritz because lexpads are immutable at run time
14:29 mucker n: my $a::('!!'); say $a::('!!')
14:29 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1222 (warn @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 230 (Mu.Str @ 10) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Ni…
14:29 mucker n: $a::('!!'); say $a::('!!')
14:29 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
14:29 mucker n: $a::('!!')=5; say $a::('!!')
14:29 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«5␤»
14:30 mucker "Use of uninitialized value in string context␤" what does this error mean ??
14:30 mucker i get this even when I init the value
14:31 mucker n: $my a::('!!')=5; say $a::('!!'); #but only when I use my at the beg
14:31 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Variable $my is not predeclared at /tmp/RFG9yCErdc line 1:�------> [32m<BOL>[33m�[31m$my a::('!!')=5; say $a::('!!'); #but on[0m��Two terms in a row at /tmp/RFG9yCErdc line 1:�------> [32m$my [33m�[31ma::('!!')=5; say …
14:31 mucker n: my a::('!!')=5; say $a::('!!'); #but only when I use my at the beg
14:31 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��GLOBAL::a does not name any package at /tmp/Hh8TnOqoKe line 1:�------> [32mmy a::('!!')[33m�[31m=5; say $a::('!!'); #but only when I use[0m��A type must be provided at /tmp/Hh8TnOqoKe line 1:�------> [32mmy a::('!!')[33…
14:31 mucker n: my $a::('!!')=5; say $a::('!!');
14:31 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1222 (warn @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 230 (Mu.Str @ 10) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Ni…
14:31 moritz it might be related to niecza implemting 'no strict', and assuming that it's a package variable or so
14:32 mucker oh ok.
14:32 mucker sorry for clobbering the screen
14:32 * mucker still a noob with irc
14:33 JimmyZ good evening, #perl6
14:36 masak JimmyZ! \o/ 问候!
14:36 JimmyZ 麦高: 下午好!
14:37 masak 下午好,下午好.
14:38 masak JimmyZ: 你住在哪里?广州?我忘了。
14:38 JimmyZ masak: 我在深圳
14:38 masak 啊,对。
14:38 kranius joined #perl6
14:39 masak 我想起了全省正确 :)
14:55 JimmyZ_ joined #perl6
15:00 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 16 commits to rakudo/nom by jnthn
15:03 jnthn moritz: In a recent patch: ".HOW.WHAT is the same as just .HOW. Simplify"
15:03 jnthn moritz: That's not actaully the case.
15:03 jnthn moritz: In this case you get away with it though.
15:04 jnthn moritz: But the meta-object will usually be an instance.
15:04 * felher spectests that merge ooc.
15:09 dalek rakudo/nom: ac083c5 | jnthn++ | docs/ChangeLog:
15:09 dalek rakudo/nom: Fill out ChangeLog a little more.
15:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ac083c5d28
15:10 jnthn Mostly, the branch started cleaning up name handling
15:10 jnthn Of note, not re-parsing longname in a bunch of places
15:15 lestrrat joined #perl6
15:27 felher jnthn/moritz: i got two fails: "t/spec/S32-exceptions/misc.rakudo ......................... Failed 2/282 subtests", namely "not ok 216 - right exception type (X::Augment::NoSuchType)" and "not ok 67 - right exception type (X::Redeclaration)"
15:41 vlixes joined #perl6
15:44 TimToady n: my \term:<☻> = 42; say ☻
15:44 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:44 TimToady mucker: ^^^
15:46 mucker (:
15:48 jnthn TimToady: In S02:
15:48 jnthn MY          # Symbols in the current lexical scope (aka $?SCOPE)
15:48 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:48 jnthn TimToady: Just to clarify, does this mean if you do MY::<$x> it means anything *visible* from that scope?
15:49 jnthn TimToady: As opposed to anything declared precisely in that scope?
15:49 jnthn On a similar note, what about MY::.keys?
15:50 TimToady std: my $good; say MY::<$good>; my $bad; { say MY::<$bad> }
15:50 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Variable MY::<$bad> is not predeclared at /tmp/Wi8jY37TKR line 1:�------> [32m $good; say MY::<$good>; my $bad; { say [33m�[31mMY::<$bad> }[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:00 42m�»
15:50 jnthn I assume that OUR:: really *is* just $?PACKAGE and no more magical than that?
15:50 TimToady ^^
15:51 jnthn n: my $good; say MY::<$good>; my $bad; { say MY::<$bad> }
15:51 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $good is declared but not used at /tmp/HXuYtn5iOc line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m$good; say MY::<$good>; my $bad; { say M[0mâ�¤  $bad is declared but not used at /tmp/HXuYtn5iOc line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $good; say MY::<$good>; my…
15:51 jnthn n: my $good; say MY::<$good>; my $bad; { say MY::<$bad> } #OK
15:51 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Any()␤Any()␤»
15:51 jnthn n: my $good = 1; say MY::<$good>; my $bad = 2; { say MY::<$bad> } #OK
15:51 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
15:51 jnthn So, it finding 2 is wrong here?
15:51 TimToady interesting divergence from STD there...
15:52 jnthn TimToady: Yeah, I'm just reviewing pseudo.t and the spec before implementing various of the pseudo-packages.
15:52 jnthn TimToady: My question applies to OUTER and CALLER too
15:52 jnthn Well, and UNIT and SETTING :)
15:52 jnthn I know DYNAMIC has to be different and go scanning. As does ::<$x>
15:53 fgomez joined #perl6
15:53 jnthn std: my $good = 1; say MY::<$good>; { say OUTER::<$good> }
15:53 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
15:54 jnthn std: my $bad; { my $good; say MY::<$good>; { say OUTER::<$good>; say OUTER::<$bad>; }
15:54 p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Variable OUTER::<$bad> is not predeclared at /tmp/TsZLX9aMEf line 1:�------> [32m MY::<$good>; { say OUTER::<$good>; say [33m�[31mOUTER::<$bad>; }[0m�Unable to parse block at /tmp/TsZLX9aMEf line 1:�------> [32mmy $bad; [33m�[31m…
15:54 jnthn Guess that's my answer.
15:54 jnthn For OUTER at least.
15:54 TimToady well, we'll have to negoitiate MY with sorear++ I guess
15:54 TimToady *got
15:55 jnthn n: my $x; { my $y; say MY::.keys } # curious
15:55 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $y is declared but not used at /tmp/s2Rfs0SdX7 line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy $x; { my [33mâ��[31m$y; say MY::.keys } # curious[0mâ�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/s2Rfs0SdX7 line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy [33mâ��[31m$x; { my $y; say MY::.…
15:55 jnthn n: my $x; { my $y; say MY::.keys } # curious #OK
15:55 p6eval niecza v15-6-gefda208: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:55 jnthn Hm.
15:55 jnthn I worry if we give it the Niecza meaning then .keys will be *huge* :)
15:56 TimToady nodnod
15:56 jnthn And useless for walking the pads.
15:57 mucker what is the p6 equivalent of *foo{NAME} (p5) ?
15:59 JimmyZ_ joined #perl6
16:01 JimmyZ joined #perl6
16:01 mucker TimToady : is \term an experimental extension in n ??
16:02 jnthn mucker: It's spec, though a relatively recent addition. Rakudo didn't get around to adding it yet.
16:02 jnthn It's not hard.
16:02 jnthn Just nobody got a round tuit.
16:03 mucker It's a neat feature :) no other lang has it me thinks
16:04 TimToady the hard bit is generating a new lexer/parser at that point
16:05 TimToady re *foo{NAME} Perl 6 doesn't have typeglobs, so there's no equivalent
16:15 geistteufel joined #perl6
16:16 TimToady actually, we know how to generate a new language at that point; what we don't know yet is how best to avoid regenerating lexers that are trivially different from the previous when that will turn out to be unnecessary
16:16 TimToady or how to avoid regenerating lexers that are identical to the one we generated last time we compiled this program
16:16 TimToady either of those might speed up a Perl 6 parser greatly
16:17 cognominal geistteufel, hello to the devil
16:18 geistteufel hi from hell :)
16:18 TimToady programming in PHP, are you? :)
16:19 masak or maintaining a major VB.NET code base...
16:20 tadzik guys, guys, there are ladies in the room :/
16:20 TimToady sorry
16:22 masak we don't talk about lexer generation in front of ladies now?
16:22 tadzik don't we?
16:23 masak well, what bit of the conversation above was it that you :/-ed on?
16:23 tadzik but, well, VB.NET? There are limits, y'know
16:23 masak oh, I see now.
16:23 masak yeah, sorry.
16:23 tadzik concrete joke I guess ;)
16:24 * masak .oO( if the joke was concrete, that explains why I got it so slowly... )
16:24 dalek ecosystem: 830a24d | tadzik++ | META.list:
16:24 dalek ecosystem: Add Text::T9
16:24 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/830a24d04b
16:24 TimToady .oO(went over like a concrete balloon...)
16:25 * TimToady wonders how big a concrete balloon would have to be before the volume effects overcome the surface effects...
16:26 TimToady I suppose it depends on how thinly you can pour concrete and still call it concrete
16:26 TimToady "yeah, it's concrete, but it's reinforced with fiberglass and epoxy"
16:27 masak that's legit, in my book.
16:27 masak because you usually do that.
16:28 TimToady well, in the abstract, anyway
16:28 TimToady most concrete is not reinforced that way concretely
16:29 masak :)
16:29 TimToady .oO(masak's new hobby: trying to trick people into autopunishment)
16:30 xdbr joined #perl6
16:30 masak most funny things I've seen in the past few days have turned out to be non-auto puns on closer inspection.
16:31 masak this one, fr'ex: http://twitter.com/sharonGOONer/status/190872900570595328
16:31 TimToady that's why I hedged it with "trying to"  :P
16:33 TimToady well, not unless the *facepsalm* is also a reaction to making a bad pun
16:33 TimToady which I can read it as
16:34 TimToady just because you can argue yourself out of an autopun doesn't make it right :)
16:38 TimToady and anything as far into the realm of pragmatics as *facepalm* will be subject to more than just semantic analysis; it is not enough that you did a facepalm, but that you must be seen doing a facepalm by the reader, with the explicit intent of producing an almost whiplash reaction in the reader
16:40 TimToady and anything in the realm of pragmatics takes its meaning from wherever the hearer can find it in the context
16:40 TimToady but this is highly variable from hearer to hearer
16:41 TimToady swearwords like PHP and VB.NET work the same way
16:41 cognominal joined #perl6
16:42 arnsholt There. The basics of my code seems to be in place
16:44 tadzik my $perl = ':(';
16:44 tadzik Signature.pm is sad
16:44 jnthn heh :)
16:45 jnthn I think I wrote that line, then was like, "lol"
16:45 tadzik .WHY _must_ use this for subs
16:45 * tadzik dives in
16:49 masak TimToady: what was interesting to me wasn't that tadzik++ implied that PHP and VB.NET were swearwords, which is easy to grok, but that he did it by invoking 'dudes, not in front of the ladies', which is an antiquated meme in Sweden.
16:51 TimToady it's antiquated here too
16:51 TimToady for some definition of "here" that may not include the midwest :)
16:51 masak heh.
16:51 * masak imagines a torus-shaped US
16:52 masak I've also noted that the concentration of blonde jokes is slightly higher in Poland.
16:53 TimToady .oO(Missouri, the Doughnut Hole State)
16:53 TimToady or maybe that's Iowa
16:54 JimmyZ_ joined #perl6
16:54 TimToady the usual joke here is that the midwest is "Flyover Country"
16:55 TimToady funny how far the midwest is from the mideast though...
16:55 arnsholt jnthn: What roughly is the purpose of initialize_slots?
16:55 jnthn arnsholt: Context?
16:56 arnsholt Durr, sorry. In CStruct.[ch]
16:57 arnsholt CStructREPRData has an int array called initialize_slots, whose purpose I'm not quite able to figure out
16:57 jnthn /* Slots holding flattened objects that need another REPR to initialize
16:57 jnthn * them; terminated with -1. */
16:57 jnthn INTVAL *initialize_slots;
16:57 jnthn That one
16:58 arnsholt Yah
16:58 jnthn arnsholt: See the initiailize REPR function
16:58 jnthn arnsholt: initialize is basically "set up this memory like it needs to be if we're making a fresh object"
16:59 thou joined #perl6
16:59 jnthn arnsholt: It's the way that we end up with integer slots defualting to 0, num slots defaulting to NaN, etc.
16:59 jnthn arnsholt: In P6opaque if you inline something like a bigint that needs some fancier initialization, it takes care of doing that.
16:59 arnsholt Right, right.
16:59 jnthn arnsholt: Basically, it's just delegation to flattened in REPRs.
16:59 jnthn It only applies to things you flatten in. But you are working with reference types.
17:00 arnsholt Cool. So I'll probably need another similar array to set up the child objects
17:00 jnthn No
17:00 jnthn Oh
17:00 jnthn Yeah.
17:00 jnthn :)
17:00 jnthn Sorry, misunderstood at first :)
17:00 jnthn Note that I already prepared some of the way though
17:01 jnthn /* GC-marked objects that our C structure points into. */
17:01 jnthn PMC **child_objs;
17:01 arnsholt Yeah, my code allocates that memory now
17:01 jnthn But that is currenlty unused.
17:01 jnthn oh, cool :)
17:03 isBEKaml joined #perl6
17:04 masak isBEKaml! \o/
17:04 isBEKaml hola, masak! Hi, #perl6! :)
17:05 masak good, we're all here. today's agenda: taking over the world.
17:05 moritz start by reading http://halfhalf.posterous.com/dont-work-be-hated-love-someone :-)
17:06 isBEKaml masak: did something just happen? :D
17:08 isBEKaml moritz: oh, I was just reading a blog post from adzerk this afternoon, similar things said (the title was a bit of a bait, though)
17:09 arnsholt jnthn: Is where a given child should be placed what you intended to use the CSTRUCT_ATTR_* #defines for?
17:10 jnthn arnsholt: yeah
17:10 jnthn Well, if by "where it should be placed" you mean "where the shadow copy goes"
17:10 jnthn arnsholt: IN_STRUCT just means it's a value we return directly.
17:11 masak moritz: nice one. I got my current job from play -- ultimately from getting to know jnthn++ here on #perl6.
17:11 masak isBEKaml: you must have missed many meetings, sir. we've been trying to take over the world for years :P
17:12 isBEKaml masak: Yes, I hope I'm not too late to the party!
17:13 isBEKaml moritz: Yes, that was a good read (resonated with me as much as Job's SHSF talk).
17:14 geistteufel TimToady: well, I'm just playing with my nickname. I'm a perl5 developer
17:14 geistteufel I let PHP behind several years behind
17:14 isBEKaml moritz: erm, SHSF -- Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish.
17:16 masak isBEKaml: you're not too late to the party. just find a passion and go with the flow.
17:16 TimToady I'd categorize perl5 programming as more like purgatory... :)
17:16 GlitchMr joined #perl6
17:17 isBEKaml TimToady: If I understand the word purgatory, that's weird coming from you. :)
17:17 masak not really.
17:17 masak TimToady has been biased towards Perl 6 for several years now. :)
17:18 TimToady purgatory: seems real nice when you first come from hell...
17:18 arnsholt jnthn: Quite, quite. And "return directly" is the flatteing we have ATM, right?
17:18 isBEKaml masak: I know, maybe I'm just surprised he used that word. :)
17:18 jnthn arnsholt: Yeah.
17:19 masak isBEKaml: "people, please! there are atheists around!" :P
17:19 isBEKaml *lol*
17:19 arnsholt That reminds me, I need to finish the last half of Paradiso =)
17:19 arnsholt Maybe I'll get around to that roughly around the same time as Perl 6.0.0
17:20 arnsholt That'd be an excellent conincidence ^_^
17:20 TimToady we're trying to finish the last half of Paradisio too, as it were
17:20 TimToady or maybe it's the third 80% by now
17:21 cognominal masak:  and ignostic (note the initial) too because atheism is a very intolerant sect
17:21 cognominal *initial i
17:22 * cognominal is probably a gnostic ignostic. The two sides don't come from the same part of thebrain.
17:22 TimToady well, a lot of folks are antignostic: they don't wanna know :)
17:23 masak cognominal: ignosticism, not to be confused with apatheism :P
17:23 cognominal :)
17:23 isBEKaml masak: There's something about #perl6 that keeps bringing all that fun back... :)
17:23 masak isBEKaml: I know!
17:23 TimToady I care!
17:24 cognominal the feat is doing it without coming immediately to insults.
17:24 TimToady ah, the French, always worried about insults...
17:24 TimToady in what other language can you insult someone by saying "I insult you!"
17:24 fgomez joined #perl6
17:25 isBEKaml smooth insults? o_O
17:25 masak oh, I just realize that that old joke is an autopun: "Is it ignorance or apathy? I don't know, and I don't care."
17:25 masak realized*
17:26 masak it's something as unusual as a *tandem* autopun!
17:26 * arnsholt idly wonders why there's an i in ignorance
17:26 TimToady it's more ignoble that way
17:26 masak arnsholt: er, it negates "gnosis"?
17:26 masak as in "not knowing".
17:26 TimToady probably derives linguistically from the in- negator
17:27 isBEKaml masak: shouldn't that be agnorance? I don't care about "gnosis"!
17:27 arnsholt Well, yeah. But the greek negative prefix is a(n)
17:27 cognominal masak:  "er", as german inchative?
17:27 TimToady inconceivable!
17:27 isBEKaml ergnorance!
17:27 masak isBEKaml: shouldn't be "irrogance"? I don't know about "rogance"!
17:28 arnsholt But yeah, probably what TimToady suggests. Greek root with Latin negation
17:28 masak er, shouldn't that be "ipathy"? I don't know about "pathy"!
17:28 isBEKaml masak: Bah! It's all greek and latin to me!
17:28 benabik Reminds me of a T-shirt: "Polyamory is wrong! It's either multiamory or or polyphilia. But mixing Greek and Latin roots? Wrong!"
17:28 masak hah!
17:28 masak well, "hexadecimal" is just as wrong.
17:28 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
17:29 isBEKaml so is saying "runny nose" and "smelly feet"!
17:29 isBEKaml back to engreesh, forget g and l.
17:30 TimToady and don't be "hypersensitive"
17:30 masak language is fundamentally broken. it's causes side effects in people's brains. not FP at all.
17:30 masak ideally, we should do language in a monad.
17:30 arnsholt Oxford Latin Dictionary to the rescue. It is indeed in-gnotus, from Greek agnostos
17:31 benabik OED++
17:31 isBEKaml OLD++
17:31 arnsholt benabik: I need to get that shirt! =D
17:31 TimToady actually, I have no problem with mixing roots; we borrow productive language bits, not fossils, and there's no rule that says the new language cannot mix and match
17:31 benabik isBEKaml: Maybe it should be Oxford++
17:32 moritz Oxfnord :-)
17:32 arnsholt TimToady: Yeah. This is where my prescriptivist and descriptivist brains start to disagree =)
17:32 TimToady OED is hyperlikeable
17:32 TimToady not to mention superlikeable
17:33 isBEKaml or supralikeable
17:33 arnsholt Hehe
17:34 masak moritz: Oxfnord -- that's why I keep forgetting it exists!
17:34 tadzik r: my $a = method (Str $a) { ... }; say $a.perl
17:34 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«method <anon>(Mu , Str $a, Mu %_!) { ... }␤»
17:35 awwaiid joined #perl6
17:35 jnthn tadzik: huh, the $_! is wrong
17:35 tadzik the first and the last parameter are surely correct, yet not really friendly
17:35 jnthn tadzik: Should be *%_
17:35 tadzik yeah, should be... exactly
17:35 moritz and Mu :
17:35 jnthn Right.
17:35 isBEKaml jnthn: I vaguely recall you saying that back when nom was in the works. That's still in?
17:35 TimToady this fossilish view of language works elsewhere too; I predict that other languages will borrow the syntax of Perl 6's meta-operators without borrowing the idea of meta-operators
17:36 tadzik I wonder if Pod::To::Text should just use Method.perl for pretty-printing them for docs
17:36 tadzik that seems like the most obvious way, but I suppose the output can be shorter and more clear
17:36 moritz tadzik: in time, that will include the source code :/
17:36 isBEKaml And, I don't see why we need the Mu before Str in the signature..
17:36 tadzik oh, then it's a no-go anyway
17:36 tadzik isBEKaml: the invocant
17:36 moritz isBEKaml: that's the invocant marker gone wrong
17:37 isBEKaml ah
17:38 tadzik I wonder if I should skip the invocant when printing the method in --doc
17:38 tadzik or maybe just look into it and add a 'Class method' or 'Instance method' marker to it
17:47 tadzik https://gist.github.com/2386191 -- this deliberately skips the invocant marker for the sake of readability and no confusion. Thoughts?
17:48 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: 51a3250 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/6model/reprs/CStruct.c:
17:48 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: Start letting CStruct have CArray members.
17:48 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/51a3250d24
17:48 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: 6700db0 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | .gitignore:
17:48 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: Ignore OS X bundles.
17:48 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6700db086a
17:48 moritz tadzik: +1
17:49 tadzik +1 from my mentor; settled then :)
17:49 arnsholt jnthn: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/51a3250d24c460ff99f8a2a2fa6d72b940c76aa1 # First commit in branch cstruct-work
17:49 benabik method outside of a class is a warning, not an error?
17:49 tadzik warning
17:50 moritz and only if it's named
17:50 tadzik you can my $a = method(); and then A.^add_method
17:50 moritz r: my $x = method () { };
17:50 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f:  ( no output )
17:50 arnsholt Oh, right. dalek++ prints all the commits here as well. I forgot =)
17:50 moritz r: my $x = method foo() { };
17:50 p6eval rakudo 3bd91f: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline␤»
17:51 jnthn arnsholt: "The initialize_slots member in the REPRData needs to be more complex" - not sure it does...
17:51 jnthn arnsholt: At least, not for the CArray case stuff you're doing
17:51 TimToady it's interesting to see 下午 "down noon" for afternoon, when I just learned yesterday that 昃 means both "afternoon" and "decline".  Are these both references to the sun starting down from the zenith?
17:51 jnthn arnsholt: Since that isn't "flattened in"
17:52 TimToady I suppose I should ask that when it isn't in the middle of the night in China
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: 73ce76a | tadzik++ | lib/Pod/To/Text.pm:
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: [Pod::To::Text] Print subs and methods prettier
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom:
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: This delibarately skips invocant and optional named params in method
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: signature for the sake of readability and the least amount of confusion.
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom:
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: We're not using simply Sub.perl and Method.perl since they may contain
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: the source code one day, and we almost certainly don't need that.
17:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/73ce76a49a
17:53 tadzik this is cool. I can now write "#= get a list of words from @words matching $input" and it formats nicely
17:53 moritz \o/
17:53 arnsholt jnthn: Right. In that case, initialize() needs to be more clever, since right now it passes the sub-initializer a pointer directly into the cstruct blob
17:54 arnsholt I just couldn't think of a way to do that without a bit more information
17:57 jnthn arnsholt: But a pointer to an array is a reference type, so there's no need to call a sub-initializer.
17:57 jnthn arnsholt: It just starts life NULL.
17:57 jnthn arnsholt: And if it's requested, we know the type object.
17:58 arnsholt Oh, right. Good point =)
18:06 masak TimToady: no, there's just a general space/time synesthesia meme in China, saying that time moves downwards, like in a schedule app.
18:07 masak TimToady: there is interesting research proving that such a synesthesia exists for exactly those groups that have such metaphors in their language.
18:07 masak s/proving/strongly indicating/
18:09 sorear good * #perl6
18:10 sorear jnthn: It succeeds in n because n doesn't enforce use strict for runtime lookups - it goes to GLOBAL
18:10 TimToady though 昃 breaks down into "sun" and "slant", and we can say "the slanting sun"
18:12 TimToady and I do believe in "Metaphors We Live By", I kinda doubt your synesthesia thesis in this particular case, since time flows uphill for 上午  :)
18:12 TimToady *and while
18:12 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: 3bde5a3 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/6model/reprs/CStruct.c:
18:12 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: Remove some TODOs since they weren't actually necessary. jnthn++
18:12 dalek nqp/cstruct-work: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3bde5a38df
18:12 sorear masak: My impression of Eliezer is that he is far more concerned with stopping other people from getting there first than actually doing anything himself
18:13 masak TimToady: nono, that's to be read as "above noon".
18:13 masak sorear: really? I hadn't gotten that impression so far. :/
18:14 moritz jnthn: fwiw I got the same spectest results as felher. One is probably due to a test stupidity, the other one might be a regression that an error previously thrown with a dedicated type is now just a string
18:14 jnthn moritz: I knew there was something with misc so I ignored it, but I may well have caused a regression.
18:14 moritz jnthn: no, it's an actual regression
18:14 moritz ./perl6 -e 'use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class NoSuchClass { }'
18:14 moritz ===SORRY!===
18:14 moritz get_pmc_keyed_str() not implemented in class 'LongName'
18:15 jnthn Oh
18:15 moritz jnthn: I fixed the failure in misc.t that we had for a few weeks
18:15 jnthn yeah, I pass soemthing that was a string before that is now an object
18:15 moritz d0568017e25387bfe78831eb9e2f5b54e507c391 from yesterday
18:15 sorear .go SIAI scary idea
18:15 sorear huh, I thought phenny had that feature.
18:16 moritz jnthn: if you fix that one, I'm +1 to merging, and will handle the other test failure in misc.t
18:16 moritz though the wrong other test that fails hides a real error
18:16 moritz class A { }; subset A of Any;
18:16 moritz doesn't die, but should
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18:18 eoh joined #perl6
18:18 sorear masak: not 100%, but relevant: http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/10/singularity-institutes-scary-idea-and.html
18:23 jnthn moritz: Will take care of it.
18:24 cognominal jnthn, have you looked at  https://gist.github.com/2343861?
18:25 jnthn no
18:25 jnthn (looking)
18:26 lichtkind jnthn: do you have any clue why slightest change even innocent like my $var = 3; in rakudo made it uncompileable?
18:26 jnthn cognominal: Interesting to see. Unfortunately I suspect it'll slow parsing down a lot if we apply it right now.
18:26 cognominal That's could be a good comment
18:26 jnthn cognominal: But we want that stuff written in NQP in the end.
18:27 cognominal my point is not that it could replace existing code today but that it should compile.
18:27 jnthn cognominal: Well, the QAST work and the NQP::Optimizer that'll come after it should help :)
18:29 jnthn moritz: fixed locally
18:29 moritz jnthn: \o/
18:29 moritz jnthn: I'm working on improved tests too
18:29 jnthn cognominal: OK, I don't know why the NQP compiler would be unhappy at first glance.
18:29 lichtkind joined #perl6
18:30 jnthn ooh, dinner time...I should find something to eat :)
18:30 * jnthn has some work towards pseudopackage stuff locally...hopefully land some of those later tonight :)
18:30 dalek roast: c9e3611 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
18:30 dalek roast: more robust name clash tests
18:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c9e3611358
18:36 geistteufel I wonder perl6 is now in development since several years, and seems completly a new language. this language will be ready for production someday ? in years ? month ? is they a cpan for perl6 or perl6 include already so much stuff that cpan is not really a need actually ?
18:37 masak geistteufel: it's a gradual thing.
18:37 moritz geistteufel: "ready for production" greatly depends on the production. It's already useful for some kinds of production environment
18:38 masak geistteufel: I'm using Perl 6 for things that I would consider to be "in production". it's ready for some things, not for others.
18:38 moritz geistteufel: and we're slowly evoliving a module system. module.perl6.org give a short overview
18:38 geistteufel I see, but they is not yet interpretor with good speed, right ?
18:38 masak geistteufel: the progress is not defined so much by "we need to put this feature in place" but by "we need to make things smaller, faster, and more polished".
18:39 masak geistteufel: try Niecza, it's got surprisingly good runtime speed. try Rakudo, it's got surprisingly good startup time :)
18:39 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
18:41 geistteufel actually we can use it with command line tools only. Or solve stuff with math. But not really open for the web. They is a Plack equivalent, CGI ? FCGI ?
18:41 sorear the main thing is that all known Perl 6 implementations have agonizingly slow parsers
18:41 sorear We have a rudimentary Plack equivalent
18:42 geistteufel and connection to db, like MySQL, PostgreSQL, MongoDB?
18:43 sorear rudiments of those too
18:43 masak yeah. we have stuff, but it's not always up-to-date, or very powerful.
18:44 masak really what we need is more hands to use stuff, and fix things up rather than get frustrated about their current shoddiness :)
18:44 sorear I think a lot of the library stuff hasn't matured because nobody wants to build on such slow interpreters... but this is probably a self-serving delusion, since my research focus is speeding up the parsers ;)
18:44 masak some of it is bitrot.
18:44 masak bitrot has a slightly demotivational effect on ecosystem people. :)
18:44 * sorear wonders if masak is interested in the Goertzel link
18:45 geistteufel I have take a look of the coding. It's really impressive.
18:46 geistteufel The good point with perl5 is that they is 1 interpreter, so every energy is focus on this one.
18:46 masak sorear: I am. haven't read it yet. will react to it when I have.
18:46 geistteufel have multiple interpreter spare the effort, so it is slower to get something fast
18:46 benabik geistteufel: The downside is that perl5 is defined by the interpreter, so future versions have to be bug-compatable.
18:46 tadzik 9 women can't birth a child in a month
18:47 moritz geistteufel: that's a common fallacy
18:47 moritz geistteufel: you can only try a single design with a single compiler
18:47 benabik (Or perhaps bug-compatable isn't quite it.  "Implementation quirk" compatible, perhaps.)
18:47 geistteufel but if an interpreter can do stuff, and not the over, it will be like having multiple browser. IE / Mozilla / Opera / Chrome ... a really complain of implementation of the language for developer ?
18:48 moritz that's why we have a test suite, and bugreports for missing features
18:48 TimToady every implementation has blind spots, and if there is only one implementation, these blinds spots get set in concrete
18:48 TimToady to mix a metaphor or two
18:48 geistteufel ok so any interpreter will have to follow the last implementation?
18:48 moritz no
18:48 moritz there's a spec
18:48 geistteufel if all interpreter do the same stuff the same way, what are the point to have many one ?
18:49 tadzik what's the point of clang if there's gcc?
18:49 moritz geistteufel: doing something isn't the same as doing it well
18:49 TimToady there are many ways to do the same thing
18:49 geistteufel That"s the modo of perl language :)
18:50 cognominal grosso motto
18:50 sorear *motto
18:50 geistteufel that's funny. It's really a new way to do. Write spec, let over people to implement the spec. It is more open
18:51 moritz well, it's not quite so unidirectional as you make it sound
18:51 TimToady that's more of a waterfall descriptiong than a whirlpool description
18:52 TimToady nobody is smart enough to spec Perl 6 in advance
18:52 geistteufel TimToady: I'm not english native (like you should have notice), so it's hard for me to understand the metaphore
18:52 geistteufel I see.
18:52 TimToady so there has to be feedback from implementations back to spec too
18:53 TimToady and there is a lot of useful information going side-to-side between the different implementations too
18:54 geekosaur multiple implementations is key to this as well:  it helps distinguish "hard in this implementation" from "hard in general"
18:54 geistteufel ok. I see.
18:54 moritz oh, and we are at the point where the implementation can exchange code
18:55 TimToady especially the bits written in Perl 6 :)
18:55 moritz because both are partially written in Perl 6
18:55 geistteufel So interpreter say "perl6 - spec 20120425 compatible" or something like that
18:55 TimToady none of them are yet spec compatible, or even test-suite compatible
18:55 geistteufel and so they is compiler; can we compile our perl6 code ?
18:56 geistteufel I create a pm, and it build a pmc or something ?
18:56 TimToady so far we just say "works in niecza 2012-04-14" and such
18:57 TimToady but we'll converge on the test suite eventually
18:57 geistteufel some of them implement already some part of the spec, over one over part. if we need feature of part impleted in 2 separate compiler, we are bloody annoying ?
18:57 moritz the compiler writers know that the spec writer are annoying :-)
18:58 TimToady especially that snotty guy that wrote the STD parser :)
18:58 sorear tadzik++ "9 women cannot birth a child in a month"
18:59 geistteufel I'm just curious, having multiple compiler, multiple implentation, sound like 'HTML & CSS' interpreter. And It's sometime hell to solve stuff for all interpreter version. That is why I wonder how can that work for perl6.
18:59 sorear geistteufel: "waterfall" means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model
18:59 masak sorear: Brooks takes that further. he says there are O(N**2) costs in making a team bigger.
18:59 geistteufel sorear: we can't parallelize everything :)
18:59 cognominal TimToady, is your secret projet is to get a language capable to translate the bible in any language?
18:59 tadzik sorear: oh, "birth" was gramatically correct in this context?
18:59 cognominal *project
19:00 masak tadzik: maybe "gestate" covers it better. but I'm no native speaker either :)
19:00 sorear tadzik: I think so?  I'm not fretting it
19:00 tadzik ok then. I wasn't sure :)
19:01 TimToady cognominal: no, my not-so-secret project is to translate theological concepts into the society of hackers
19:01 sorear geistteufel: "whirlpool" is a metaphorical contrast to a waterfall, where water moves in every direction, not just one
19:02 geistteufel I get it; the waterfall model (I use this at work) is not always nice to apply, and it take time to release something concistant.
19:02 cognominal TimToady, that's ambitious indeed.
19:03 TimToady geistteufel: there's only one person smart enough to design things in advance, and He's theological... :)
19:04 tadzik eek
19:04 TimToady so all we can do is approximate that with time travel
19:04 geistteufel so the language progress with experience.
19:04 dalek ecosystem: 3b739ab | tadzik++ | META.list:
19:04 dalek ecosystem: Add Grammar::Debugger
19:04 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/3b739abe09
19:04 TimToady geistteufel: yes
19:05 cognominal geistteufel, whirlpool is about feedback
19:05 TimToady fortunately, the future is unevenly distrubuted, so we can steal ideas from the future to help the other parts catch up :)
19:05 cognominal the pi factor in waterfall projects is due to lack of appropriate feedback.
19:06 u2012 joined #perl6
19:06 geistteufel I have to read a book on it
19:06 TimToady it's difficult to come up with a good strange attactor in real life because of inertia
19:06 geistteufel and try it a little, just play around
19:06 geistteufel the issue is to find something interesting I can build with it.
19:07 TimToady but to get good feedback at all scales requires that our "particles" stay light-on-their-feet so they can turn quickly
19:07 fsergot joined #perl6
19:07 geistteufel I love create API, working with REST or Plack. And I don't know if I can create this kind of stuff with perl6
19:07 TimToady you can, eventually :)
19:07 moritz you can now
19:08 masak right now, the answer is, "you can, but it might not be 100% smooth"
19:08 moritz though maybe not as easily as with p5 right now
19:08 TimToady but we have to help redistribute that future to you :)
19:08 geistteufel with rakudo ?
19:08 moritz yes
19:08 masak for example.
19:09 geistteufel the guy of rakudo working hard to implement fully the spec, or to speedup their interpreter right now ?
19:09 tadzik huh. Does Grammar::Tracer work for you?
19:09 TimToady geistteufel: it's not either/or, but both/and
19:09 NamelessTee joined #perl6
19:09 geistteufel I thing if they is a really fast interpreter, they will be a lot more active developer on the language
19:10 masak geistteufel: a few months back, startup time got significantly faster in Rakudo. and yes, that does make a huge difference, just as you say.
19:10 moritz masak: where "a few" is "less than two"
19:11 uvtc joined #perl6
19:11 geistteufel they is something like Test::Simple for perl6 ?
19:11 TimToady but Perl 6 has the opposite problem from Perl 5.  Perl 5 is a big glob of premature optimizations, while Perl 6 is a big glob of postmature optimizations."
19:11 moritz use Test;
19:12 masak but it's more like Test::More :)
19:13 uvtc Is there a shortcut for referring to a particular message on this channel in the irclog?
19:13 geistteufel yeah I have to read a book, I think it is like learning a new language. with perl5 based. The hard stuff is to switch back afterwhile :)
19:13 moritz uvtc: the timestamp on the left is a link to that particular line
19:13 TimToady uvtc, look at the timestamp in the log
19:14 uvtc Right, but I mean, instead of copying/pasting that link into #perl6, I thought there might be a special syntax that gets recognized. The way S02 gets recognized.
19:14 uvtc For example.
19:14 moritz uvtc: nope
19:14 uvtc moritz, k, thanks.
19:16 moritz hm, it's possible
19:16 moritz we could make an irclog:<id here> syntax
19:17 moritz and since it's the irclog that renders it, it can look up channel and day too
19:17 tadzik is there anything known to be broken with nom grammars? Like, regressions against b?
19:17 uvtc moritz, All you'd need is some ⍟'s.
19:17 uvtc ;)
19:17 moritz but that would only be useful if there was an easy way to get at the ID
19:17 tadzik Text::CSV is broken, Config::INI too, and I just figured that Text::CSV grammar behaves correctly on niecza
19:17 masak geistteufel: I regularly switch between Perl 5 and Perl 6. sometimes I slip, but it's fairly benign.
19:17 moritz tadzik: yes
19:18 tadzik moritz: what are those?
19:18 masak geistteufel: I did a Perl 5 course last week. kept writing `perl -e 'say ...'` :)
19:18 TimToady -E works better there
19:18 moritz tadzik: match object construction is sometimes incomplete... lemme find the ticket
19:18 masak TimToady: exactly.
19:18 TimToady Exactly.
19:18 tadzik moritz: in this case it's overcomplete :)
19:18 masak :P
19:18 u2012 joined #perl6
19:19 moritz tadzik: could be the same underlying issue
19:19 jnthn Most of the issues boil down to the mark_commit fix that's needed
19:19 tadzik https://gist.github.com/2387188
19:19 masak TimToady: sometimes I think your brain runs on puns and autopuns...
19:20 masak tadzik: that looks like old '**' syntax, for one thing.
19:20 masak doesn't Niecza implement the new syntax?
19:20 tadzik niecza warns about that, yes. What's the new one?
19:21 tadzik just '%'? Just '%' doesn't work at all
19:21 masak tadzik: quantifier and '%'
19:21 tadzik oh
19:21 masak that's why the new syntax is better. see also, ingy ;)
19:21 tadzik okay, but Rakudo still fails here :)
19:22 moritz tadzik: https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=107254
19:22 tadzik moritz: thanks
19:22 masak oh, it's that one :/
19:22 masak yeah, that one's basically blocking on pmichaud-shaped tuits, I think.
19:24 tadzik masak: https://github.com/masak/csv/pull/1
19:24 jnthn pmichaud shaped tuits or jnthn to drink enough... :)
19:24 jnthn Hopefully the pmichaud shaped tuits will show up at the upcoming hackathon though :)
19:24 tadzik if not, we'll just get you drunk ;P
19:24 jnthn The same fix will unblock a bunch of qbootstrap issues
19:25 jnthn tadzik: Is *Oslo*? :)
19:25 tadzik is there something about Oslo I need to know?
19:25 jnthn tadzik: *mumble*beer price*mumble*
19:25 jnthn s/Is/In/
19:26 tadzik aww
19:26 lichtkind am i late for exorcism?
19:27 geekosaur (jnthn-plus?)
19:27 TimToady no, just for the seance, but that's okay
19:27 TimToady we need someone late at the seance
19:28 uvtc lichtkind, re. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-14#i_5442414 , can you tell where gitit failed?
19:28 brrt joined #perl6
19:29 masak tadzik: https://github.com/masak/csv/commit/9b731b3b1fa290937a66611e4e37d976e3163e2e
19:29 uvtc lichtkind, s/can you tell/can you tell me/
19:30 cognominal https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=107254 seems releated to my pet bug https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=111288
19:30 dalek rakudo/nom: 03edce1 | moritz++ | docs/running.pod:
19:30 dalek rakudo/nom: document --doc
19:30 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/03edce17cb
19:33 * masak fondly remembers Ciechan Maciejowe... :)
19:33 lichtkind uvtc: yes i could not create with it a simple appendix a entry, my example was to create a bold triangle meta op within a marker that tells you to place here your operator which has the same syntax like a html tag , there seems to be no way to get this,  i though how to use other brackets but i need all 3 kinds for various meanings
19:33 imarcusthis joined #perl6
19:34 moritz I find src/core/IO/ArgFiles.pm quite confusing
19:35 jnthn .oO( it makes me say arg! )
19:36 jnthn moritz: In what way is it confusing?
19:36 * jnthn has just glanced through it now
19:36 masak sometimes I wish we'd called .IO ".File"
19:36 masak $path.File
19:36 moritz jnthn: it keeps state in $!args, $!io and $!io.opened
19:39 uvtc lichtkind, sent you a private msg so as not to clog up this channel
19:42 moritz jnthn: how can I distinguish an exhausted IO::ArgFiles object from an empty one, ie one that is supposed to read only from $*IN?
19:43 jnthn moritz: Hmmm. It just does: $!filename = $!args ?? $!args.shift !! '-';
19:43 jnthn So, once it's eaten up all the args...it can't.
19:44 jnthn Is it meant to read from STDIN after exhausting the list of files?
19:44 moritz no
19:44 jnthn 'cus that's what it looks like it's doing today...
19:44 moritz it doesn't
19:44 jnthn $.args not containing a Positional could be done way
19:44 jnthn Though maybe that's a bit evil
19:45 moritz anyway, that's why I find it confusing
19:48 ggoebel joined #perl6
19:55 masak sorear: "provably safe" is ridiculous, for the reasons TimToady touch upon in http://www.wall.org/~larry/pm.html
19:55 masak sorear: I can imagine a "hard takeoff", but, hm, http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=346
19:57 masak these days, my priors tell me we're more likely to have a disastrous global "event" caused by an energy crisis than we're to have it caused by awesome AI emerging out of a lab somewhere.
19:58 timotimo either energy crisis or any other resource. metals, say
19:59 timotimo kind of sad to think this might happen in my lifetime :|
19:59 timotimo noone's getting a break
19:59 masak "might" feels kinda weak here.
19:59 timotimo either you're old now and you've had a war in your life or you're young and you'll have energy crisis or any other resource shortage ruining a part of your life
20:00 moritz "(Also, if the Singularity ever does arrive, I expect it to be plagued by frequent outages and terrible customer service.)"
20:00 masak Scott++
20:00 sorear I'm sypathetic to the Hubbardian model of no hard runnings-out
20:01 sorear we won't go from copper to no copper overnight - as nice mines are exhausted, the price will rise until it becomes economical to mine landfills, at which point it will be unpleasantly high but stationary
20:01 cognominal today we would need 1000 "human energy slaves" for each human being if we were to consume as much energy as today without machines to transform whatever in energy.
20:02 sorear cognominal: I couldn't parse that.
20:02 cognominal transitively probably more because one need infrastructure to care for these "slaves".
20:02 masak sorear: yes, but while increases are often steady and smooth, decreases seldom are.
20:02 ggoebel joined #perl6
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: e60c80c | moritz++ | src/core/IO/ArgFiles.pm:
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: implement ArgFiles.slurp
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e60c80c5fc
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: 9d489dd | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: rename ArgFiles to IO::ArgFiles
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9d489dd22c
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: d9753c1 | moritz++ | src/core/IO (2 files):
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: implement zero-arg slurp
20:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d9753c1c3c
20:03 masak sorear: for rough declines, see http://cluborlov.blogspot.se/2010/11/peak-oil-is-history.html
20:04 cognominal sorear: to produce the energy you use (thru manufactured objects and you daily life like transportation), you would need 1000 human on bicyles with dynamos, working 12 hours a day.
20:04 masak key idea "Planet Earth Can't Import Oil".
20:04 sorear I think that the human future, if there is one, will qualitatively resemble the distant past - equilibrium state with carrying capacity
20:05 * moritz wonders if "Brave New World" is considered post-singularity, from a philosophical point of view
20:05 cognominal there is still slavey today but not that kind of slavery.
20:05 timotimo if only human civilization growth had been controlled so much sooner :|
20:05 masak sorear: it has to. exponential growths aren't sustainable.
20:06 sorear cognominal: that's just stupid.  Every step you go up the food pyramid loses 90%.  Do away with the slaves and just burn their food in a power-plant boiler.  Better yet, avoid the 99% losses from croppery and build solar.
20:06 masak I find it interesting that previous generations worried about a nuclear threat. this generation worries about exponential curves hitting various roofs. population, global warming, oil consumption...
20:07 sorear cognominal: once you've eliminated the factor of 1000+ inefficiency of using humans as an energy source, it doesn't seem so bad
20:08 cognominal photovoltaic is build in China with coal so it has a big carbon footprint and it cannot provide enery when we need it and we don't know how to store energy except in hydroelectric barrage (pumping up in low cost hours).
20:08 sorear In the natural world, when a species is introduced into a new environment, it grows exponentially until it hits a roof, then stabilizes
20:09 timotimo sorear: i think the problem with humans is the kind of connectedness. with civilizations growing in developed countries, they are more likely to exploit third world countries even more than they already do
20:09 cognominal s/barrage/dam/
20:10 cognominal timoto: so true
20:12 masak sorear: yeah. there's some overdue "stabilization" up ahead, that's the main point. :/
20:12 sorear there's pain ahead, but I don't see the need for nihilistic despair.
20:13 masak in that vein, anyone who hasn't seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY probably should.
20:13 timotimo so we're heading towards a stabilization - do we have any idea how it'll pan out, given that we are kind of overstaying our welcome, so to speak?
20:13 masak sorear: no, despair won't help at all, and I'm not suggesting that. preparing helps, but the uncertainties makes it a bit vague what to do.
20:14 cognominal some cynic peiple contend that the recent slow down due to fincancial bubbles exploding has been beneficial because it has had a big impact on the energy comsumption.with the slowing of the global economy.
20:14 masak timotimo: let's just say there will be no more Apple stores.
20:14 masak cognominal: I doubt the effect has been that noticeable.
20:15 cognominal unemployed people don't drive cars to work.
20:15 sorear masak: I have a student in a class of mine who rants about how the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and tsunami was a plot by environmentalists to forestall overpopulation.  It's a bit depressing
20:15 masak I doubt the energy consumption has gone down by more than, say, 15%.
20:15 masak cognominal: it's industries that consume the most energy, compared to individuals.
20:15 cognominal masak, probablt less than that, but noticable though
20:16 masak sorear: I hear that and think "only in the US..."
20:16 timotimo sorear: we have the power to make earthquakes? or does he mean the earthquake was used - via mismanagement - to get as much damage as possible done?
20:18 Araq joined #perl6
20:18 sorear masak: he's on visa from Kuwait; I don't know how much US culture has poisoned him
20:19 masak huh.
20:19 masak anyway, that's nuts.
20:20 moritz there are known cases where geothermal drilling has caused earthquakes, but on a much smaller scale
20:21 * moritz wonders if availability of TV and birth rates are correlated
20:21 masak so it's claimed.
20:21 * masak has no plans to get a TV :)
20:22 moritz if so, there's a much more effective (and equally cruel :) way to prevent overpopulation
20:22 timotimo wait, in what direction would they corellate?
20:22 timotimo corelate*
20:23 masak more TV, lower birth rates.
20:23 sorear meh, we all know affluence lowers birth rates
20:23 masak allegedly because they both occupy the "something fun to do in the evening" niche.
20:24 jnthn What on earth could be on TV that's so interesting?!
20:24 sorear (I know several people who argue that rising world standards of living will cause US population to tank before it reaches the stabilization point)
20:24 cognominal lower birth rates but dumb kids not informed about contraception
20:24 * masak plans to even out the no TV with some affluence :)
20:24 masak cognominal: you get your contraception information through the tube in France?
20:25 masak we got it at school, as I recall. no TV required.
20:25 geistteufel is it normal that "make spectest" in rakudo doesn't pass all tests ?
20:25 lichtkind geistteufel: in nomeni patri et fili et spiritus sancti ... :)
20:25 masak geistteufel: it's worth mentioning here.
20:26 masak geistteufel: which test files?
20:26 geistteufel I copy the test result
20:26 geistteufel in pastbin
20:26 masak thank you.
20:26 masak (phew) :)
20:27 masak lichtkind: he's an *un*holy ghost, judging by the nick... ;)
20:27 geistteufel http://pastebin.com/HedmJBTy
20:28 * masak looks
20:28 masak ah, lots of "dubious" ones.
20:28 jnthn geistteufel: Windows?
20:28 geistteufel I working a lot in test since the last hackaton at Paris, last week. :)
20:28 masak Linux?
20:28 geistteufel MacOS Lion
20:28 masak ah.
20:28 jnthn Oh, interesting.
20:28 simcop2387 joined #perl6
20:28 geekosaur also notice breeding lots of kids because (1) high neonatal death rates (2) more help around the farm
20:29 masak they all seem to be of that kind.
20:29 jnthn Those tests are all the ones that use Test::Util.
20:29 masak geekosaur: right, both of which are obsoleted by rising affluence.
20:29 geekosaur bothof which tend to go away with the level of affluence (and free time) that enables buying/watching a TV
20:29 masak what geekosaur said ;)
20:29 moritz geekosaur: can you please run ./perl6 t/spec/S32-scalar/undef.rakudo and nopaste the output from that too?
20:30 masak s/geekosaur/geistteufel/ ? :)
20:30 geistteufel no
20:30 moritz yes, sorry
20:30 geistteufel I'm not a geekosaur :)
20:31 moritz geistteufel: can you pleae do it anyway? :-)
20:31 masak geistteufel++
20:31 geistteufel yep
20:31 geistteufel sorry :)
20:31 geistteufel ok
20:31 geistteufel I do it
20:31 masak as soon as he's done being offended that you mis-tabbed him :)
20:32 geekosaur :p
20:32 geekosaur should we both be offended?
20:32 geistteufel http://pastebin.com/qZm1WPjc
20:32 masak geekosaur: you should be offended in equal and opposite directions :P
20:33 masak geistteufel: there's your error, right there.
20:33 masak question is why it runs the ICU tests when you don't have ICU installed.
20:34 moritz because it's not marked as # icu
20:34 geistteufel um, what's that ?
20:34 geistteufel unicode
20:34 masak oh!
20:34 geistteufel ok, and should I install something ?
20:34 moritz yes, icu (and its headers)
20:34 moritz and then reconfigure and recompile everything
20:35 moritz though we should really warn about missing ICU much earlier
20:35 geistteufel yep
20:36 masak maybe it's time to make ICU a hard requirement.
20:36 masak wasn't that discussed recently on parrot ML?
20:36 geistteufel I start install it. I need to rebuild perl6 from scratch ?
20:37 jnthn masak: Or just implement NFG :)
20:37 moritz geistteufel: you need to even rebuild parrot
20:37 moritz rm -rf parrot
20:37 moritz perl Configure --gen-parrot && make # should do it
20:37 moritz erm
20:37 moritz sorry
20:37 moritz rm -rf install/
20:37 moritz deleting parrot doesn't help, but doesn't hurt too much either
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 2676549 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Start to sketch out a PseudoStash that will handle many of the pseudo-packages. Not yet wired up, let alone complete.
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2676549540
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 1c862bc | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Start to clean up indirect lookup handling a little. Also fix a bug in the compile time handling of indirect lookups.
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1c862bc2bd
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 68df8f5 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Switch indirect name lookups to use the new root PseudoStash approach. Still much missing in PseudoStash to make that work yet, mind. Also a little more elimination of duplicate logic.
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/68df8f5ae6
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 7f28736 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Unbust a typed exception.
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f28736c09
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 5a31737 | jnthn++ | src/core/PseudoStash.pm:
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Get things like ::('MY::$a') and $::('OUTER::b') working.
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5a31737d07
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: c59411c | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Flesh out pseudo-package handling a bit more. Now all of the interpolated lookup tests that now take a similar code path all pass again (and we should handle a bunch more cases now).
20:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c59411ceee
20:38 geistteufel icu is a hudge program
20:39 geistteufel downloading ...
20:40 mdupont_ joined #perl6
20:41 masak Unicode is a huge standard.
20:41 * masak almost said "Unicode is a huge WOMAN WITH BUNNY EARS"
20:43 huf and then you did
20:44 vlixes left #perl6
20:44 TimToady if meta-saying something is the same as saying it, we're all gonna be in deep trouble
20:44 huf i know, i know, use-mention error
20:44 masak I was almost going to say that.
20:44 TimToady you can almost say that again
20:45 masak that almost goes without saying.
20:45 geekosaur didn't Gödel have something to say about that too?
20:45 huf but perhaps we're all in deep trouble.
20:45 TimToady +1 to NFG anyway
20:46 masak geekosaur: Gödel showed that all you need in order to make "say"/"meta-say" collapse, is integer arithmetic.
20:46 TimToady after which great hilarity ensues
20:46 masak well, something like that but more formally.
20:48 TimToady "you can either be stupid or look stupid--pick two"
20:48 geekosaur except they don't quite collapse.  you can encode omega but you still can't write it (that is in fact the point)
20:55 alvis joined #perl6
20:58 masak right.
20:59 masak the system becomes powerful enough to encompass theorems with a self-reference (albeit through the encoding mechamism), and that makes it either incomplete or inconsistent.
21:00 NamelessTee joined #perl6
21:08 fgomez joined #perl6
21:12 geistteufel I have install icu4c on mac, then add export LDFLAGS='-L/usr/local/Cellar/icu4c/4.8.1.1/lib' CPPFLAGS='-I/usr/local/Cellar/icu4c/4.8.1.1/include'
21:13 geistteufel but still the same issue
21:13 moritz what is icu4c?
21:13 geistteufel I have do "make distclean", Configure, make, make spectest
21:13 geistteufel icu4c is the package for icu
21:14 geistteufel icu4c 4.8.1.1
21:14 moritz geistteufel: did you remove the install/ dir?
21:14 geistteufel http://site.icu-project.org/
21:14 geistteufel make distclean ?
21:14 Araq left #perl6
21:14 moritz distclean doesn't remove the install directory
21:14 masak make realclean, more like.
21:14 masak or the git clean -dfx thing.
21:14 moritz neither
21:15 moritz yes, git clean -xdf would work
21:15 noam joined #perl6
21:15 masak and realclean wouldn't? huh.
21:15 moritz distclean = realclean + deleting Makefile
21:15 geistteufel ok I do both now
21:15 moritz note that the install location can be /usr/local/ too
21:15 geistteufel compiling agaib :)
21:16 geistteufel again
21:16 moritz you don't want any make target to rm -rf /usr/local/
21:16 moritz or /usr/ or / for tha matter :-)
21:16 * moritz -> sleep
21:16 jnthn 'night, moritz
21:16 moritz \o
21:17 geistteufel why Configure compile stuff ?
21:20 masak because it's building parrot and nqp.
21:20 jnthn It's not Configure that does so itself; if you give it the right flags it just triggers the building of the dependencies for you.
21:22 jnthn Wow. Stopping term:sym<name> from re-parsing the name etc. seems to knock a little off the spectest time...
21:24 masak oh, and I believe people here might appreciate http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/identity.php
21:24 cognominal geistteufel, rakudo pulls to other github distribution, one for parrot and one for nqp, that it compiles.
21:25 cognominal parrot is the vm, nqp is used to bootstrap rakudo. Some nqp libraries are used by rakudo too.
21:25 cognominal s/pulls to/pulls from/
21:26 geistteufel ok
21:31 geistteufel well, it still doesn't work
21:31 geistteufel same issue
21:31 geistteufel can't solve the ICU stuff
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: b82d905 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (3 files):
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: Further clean up term:sym<name>, so we don't do any of the reparsing and don't rebuild the LongName object. Since we encounter this rule a fair amount, this seems to improve compilation performance a little.
21:32 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b82d9053e3
21:33 * tadzik surived :)
21:33 vlixes joined #perl6
21:34 lichtkind_ joined #perl6
21:36 NamelessTee joined #perl6
21:39 geistteufel some mac user just disactivate the ICU stuff.
21:39 geistteufel the make test work
21:42 geistteufel I will try to find out later
21:56 lestrrat joined #perl6
22:01 spadger joined #perl6
22:02 spadger left #perl6
22:13 fsergot 'night! o/
22:13 sorear o/
22:13 tadzik 'night
22:15 fgomez joined #perl6
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: 84f4fd4 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: Implement ::<$x> style accesses, and make OUTER::<$x>, CALLER::<$x> and MY::<$x> work.
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/84f4fd40a6
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: 9b4f785 | jnthn++ | src/core/PseudoStash.pm:
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix DYNAMIC, so it now basically works.
22:21 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9b4f785db5
22:25 localhost joined #perl6
22:25 cognominal jnthn,  what the diff between nqp::clone and pir::repr_clone?
22:26 jnthn cognominal: First currently maps to the Parrot clone v-table
22:27 jnthn Latter maps to a 6model primitive.
22:27 jnthn Expect some unification (in favor of the latter) down the line :)
22:27 cognominal thx
22:29 masak 'night, #perl6
22:29 tadzik 'night
22:29 tadzik good knight
22:34 jferrero joined #perl6
22:40 lichtkind uvtc++
22:40 lichtkind he really showed that appendix aA is possible with markup
22:41 lichtkind but maybe its not worth the effort since the effort to write such markup is almost harder than html which some proper defined css styles
22:41 lichtkind masak: hai
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: c384ab7 | jnthn++ | src/core/PseudoStash.pm:
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: First crack at OUR.
22:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c384ab7272
22:55 uvtc joined #perl6
22:57 dalek roast: 5021c60 | jnthn++ | S02-names-vars/names.t:
22:57 dalek roast: Todo a slightly dubious test; unfudge a couple that we now pass.
22:57 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5021c60007
22:57 dalek roast: 2c98b03 | jnthn++ | S0 (2 files):
22:57 dalek roast: A few more OUTER:: unfudges for Rakudo.
22:57 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2c98b03a1e
23:04 dalek roast: 4b79581 | jnthn++ | S02-names/symbolic-deref.t:
23:04 dalek roast: One more unfudge.
23:04 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4b795818a7
23:10 jnthn More tomorrow...night o/
23:14 sorear ooops, missed jnthn
23:45 pochi joined #perl6
23:48 lichtkind it reall looks promising
23:48 lichtkind already the second who want to help with docs

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