Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-04-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:49 dalek perl6-bench: b6321da | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: Add some more metadata (language, compiler, and VM) for each compiler entry
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/b6321daba4
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: 6546c15 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: Display metadata for each compiler in summary table; mild refactoring of table display logic
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/6546c15599
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: b3c3bad | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: Rakudo can compile NQP too.  Well, mostly.
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/b3c3badd66
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: d5629e5 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | README:
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: Update README with current tested compilers list
00:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/d5629e5ae8
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01:28 colomon n: class Animal does NonExistentRole { };
01:28 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unable to parse class definition at /tmp/MgSoDbpbRI line 1:�------> [32mclass Animal [33m�[31mdoes NonExistentRole { };[0m��Parse failed��»
01:29 colomon n: class Animal does NonExistentRole { ... };
01:29 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unable to parse class definition at /tmp/2FQfgQNXV_ line 1:�------> [32mclass Animal [33m�[31mdoes NonExistentRole { ... };[0m��Parse failed��»
01:30 colomon n: class Animal does Numeric { ... }
01:30 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Package was stubbed but not defined at /tmp/spVDlLCj_L line 1:�------> [32mclass[33m�[31m Animal does Numeric { ... }[0m��Unhandled exception: Check failed��  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1366 (die @…
01:30 colomon n: class Animal does Numeric { method a() { };  }
01:30 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5:  ( no output )
01:30 colomon std: class Animal does NonExistentRole { ... };
01:30 p6eval std fab64fc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Invalid role name at /tmp/xE4NnOf6BH line 1:�------> [32mclass Animal does [33m�[31mNonExistentRole { ... };[0m�    expecting typename�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 40m�»
01:34 colomon n: class AClass; class BClass does AClass { }
01:34 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Cannot compose a type of category class (AClass) at /tmp/Zu5oxlL9BZ line 1 (EOF):�------> [32mass AClass; class BClass does AClass { }[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m��Unhandled exception: Check failed��  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/li…
01:38 dalek roast: 2b9944e | (Solomon Foster)++ | S14-roles/basic.t:
01:38 dalek roast: Change the second of the duplicate failed class definitions to a different name, because Niecza remembered the first failed attempt, and on the second try complained about that instead of generating the errors the tests were looking for.
01:38 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2b9944e40b
01:38 dalek roast: b2c8ad2 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S04-declarations/state.t:
01:38 dalek roast: Additional fudging for Niecza.
01:38 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b2c8ad2728
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01:50 [Coke] sorear, colomon: IMO, if you're going to change the behavior later, I don't see the point in closing the ticket now.
01:52 cognominal joined #perl6
01:54 TimToady I think LTA is a bug, but I'm known to be insane that way...
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03:00 dalek perl6-bench: 8c1f315 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | nqp/rc-forest-fire:
03:00 dalek perl6-bench: NQP rc-forest-fire much closer now; compiles and runs, but forest fires don't spread properly
03:00 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/8c1f315172
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03:27 raiph .
03:28 raiph r: say [+] (1, { (* + 1) * 2 } ... *)[^5] # am i on the right track?
03:28 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu *%_)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:648␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2329␤  in sub <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:10624␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/SR6Fvan1kW:1␤␤»…
03:28 sorear 。
03:28 raiph p6: say [+] (1, { (* + 1) * 2 } ... *)[^5] # am i on the right track?
03:28 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like WhateverCode as a number␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 261 (Any.Numeric @ 5) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.se…
03:28 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** unknown parse error␤    at /tmp/eFrtI7aVkv line 1, column 35␤»
03:28 p6eval ..rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \$v, Mu *%_)␤␤  in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:648␤  in sub infix:<+> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2329␤  in sub <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:10624␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/cggVmb_H2t:1␤␤»…
03:28 sorear no, that's not how you use Whatever stars.
03:28 sorear Ditch the braces.
03:29 raiph kthx
03:30 raiph p6: say [+] (1, (* + 1) * 2 ... *)[^5] # am i on the right track?
03:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** unknown parse error␤    at /tmp/k4YDLrEToE line 1, column 31␤»
03:30 p6eval ..rakudo b64c1e, niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«83␤»
03:31 raiph now time to backlog # excited
03:31 sorear raiph: why?
03:32 raiph http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-23#i_5481981
03:39 raiph d'oh. but, i'm still fairly happy. at least i instinctively reached for the sequence (?) syntax
03:40 raiph the [+] was overthinko + nochecko
03:43 raiph i'm still slightly surprised by { * ...... } being wrong, and ( * ...... ) being ok, but i'm sure i'll figger that out in a mo when i read docs
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03:51 geekosaur * already creates a closure, using braces makes a closure containing a closure
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04:49 dalek perl6-bench: d67ab8c | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | nqp/rc-forest-fire:
04:49 dalek perl6-bench: Fix NQP rc-forest-fire fire spreading bug
04:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/d67ab8c49c
04:49 dalek perl6-bench: 6cdbd06 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
04:49 dalek perl6-bench: Only display enabled compilers in summary table
04:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/6cdbd0690b
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05:45 moritz phenny: tells arnsholt in https://gist.github.com/2476861 the return value of sqlite3_open indicates success, but the connection handle remains a null pointer. http://sqlite.org/c3ref/open.html has the documentation. Any idea what could be wrong?
05:45 moritz phenny: tell arnsholt oh, and sqlite creates the file, so I guess the problem is really passing the db handle back to the caller
05:45 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when arnsholt is around.
05:46 moritz phenny: tell arnsholt in https://gist.github.com/2476861 the return value of sqlite3_open indicates success, but the connection handle remains a null pointer. http://sqlite.org/c3ref/open.html has the documentation. Any idea what could be wrong?
05:46 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when arnsholt is around.
05:46 moritz spelling helps :-)
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06:26 frettled good morning or something
06:26 sorear good frettled, #perl6
06:28 moritz good *, *
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06:49 dalek perl6-bench: 879091e | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: Fix paste-o
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/879091eeae
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: 9ab5d37 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bench:
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: Turn off perlito6.js/d8 until compiler hang is fixed
06:49 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/9ab5d37152
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07:38 jaffa4 hi
07:39 sorear hi jaffa4
07:40 jaffa4 sorearL I would like to capture repeated capture in a array in a grammar. Is that possible in niecza?
07:40 sorear automatic.
07:41 jaffa4 sorear: I have tried this @<bracket1>=['(' <.ws>]*  in I cannot see the matched (....
07:41 sorear repeated captures ALWAYS go into arrays
07:41 jaffa4 when I print $<bracket1>.list.elems... I get 0.
07:42 sorear niecza: say "( ( ( " ~~ / @<bracket1>=['(' <.ws>]* /
07:42 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(6) text(( ( ( ) pos([].list) named({"bracket1" => #<match from(0) to(6) text(( ( ( ) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>}.hash)>␤»
07:42 sorear Your problem is that you put the quantifier inside the match
07:42 sorear You don't *have* a repeated capture there
07:44 jaffa4 niecza: say "( ( ( " ~~ / @<bracket1>=[['(' <.ws>]*] /
07:44 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(6) text(( ( ( ) pos([].list) named({"bracket1" => #<match from(0) to(6) text(( ( ( ) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>}.hash)>␤»
07:44 sorear niecza: say "( ( ( " ~~ / [@<bracket1>=['(' <.ws>]]* /
07:44 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(6) text(( ( ( ) pos([].list) named({"bracket1" => (#<match from(0) to(2) text(( ) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(4) text(( ) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(4) to(6) text(( ) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>).lis…
07:45 jaffa4 finally
07:45 jaffa4 that was not obvious, you know
07:45 sorear not my fault
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07:46 sorear I think the syntax you tried should be outlawed, nobody can understand it so nobody should be allowed to write it
07:46 sorear but it's not my call
07:47 * sorear leaves before he gets any grumpier
07:47 jaffa4 Why would you get grumpy?
07:49 jaffa4 sorear: in overall, the language is going to be ok , I guess
07:51 sorear from my perspective, you seem to be making a habit of expecting niecza to read your mind and complaining when it doesn't
07:51 frettled That little piece of code made my eyes water.
07:51 sorear I don't have very much free time currently and I can't make major improvements to anything
07:51 jaffa4 not niecza, DWIM?
07:51 sorear I'm starting to regret being in #perl6 at all
07:51 jaffa4 perl 6
07:51 jaffa4 not niecza, perl 6.
07:51 moritz jaffa4: you seem to have a talent for phrasing things negatively and only pointing out errors (which, often enough, are your own). That's a good reason for people to get grumpy
07:52 jaffa4 my own? This last example was not logical
07:52 moritz jaffa4: I'm not talking about the last example, I'm talking about your communcation in here in general
07:54 jaffa4 Give examples, in most cases, people misunderstand me.
07:54 moritz jaffa4: yes. And communication is always two-ways. If people misunderstand you all the time, that might be related to *your* way of communicating, not just ours
07:55 jaffa4 in most cases such as yours, people misunderstand me.
07:55 jaffa4 not always.
07:55 jaffa4 It depends on who I am communicating with
07:55 moritz and what do you learn from that?
07:55 jaffa4 bad luck
07:56 moritz that's the wrong conclusion
07:56 moritz you could investigate different ways to phrase things
07:56 moritz for example
07:56 moritz you could start to talk not only about negative things
07:57 moritz showcase some neat examples that work, for example
07:57 jaffa4 let me quote myself: in overall, the language is going to be ok , I guess
07:57 moritz and that's not positive
07:57 moritz that's just barely not negative
07:58 moritz jaffa4: do you see where I'm getting to?
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08:02 |newbie| moritz, sorear : you know what projection is in psychology
08:02 moritz |newbie|: I do
08:03 jaffa4 when you think somebody says something, in reality, you think that internally...
08:04 moritz jaffa4: I have a proposal. Go through a few pages of http://irclog.perlgeek.de/search.pl?channel=perl6&amp;nick=jaffa4&amp;q= and see count the number of lines that are negative (ie about problems with something), neutral or positive (actively praising or appreciating something). Tell us the counts. Then I tell you if I have been projecting
08:05 moritz and with "negative" I also mean negated questions
08:06 jaffa4 moritz: I come here to solve some of the problems I have spent too much time.. I use this channel for problem solving.. Of course , you will count a high "negative" remark.
08:07 moritz jaffa4: and yet other people manage to do just that without getting such a negative connotation
08:07 * arnsholt scrollbacks a bit
08:07 phenny arnsholt: 05:45Z <moritz> tell arnsholt oh, and sqlite creates the file, so I guess the problem is really passing the db handle back to the caller
08:07 phenny arnsholt: 05:46Z <moritz> tell arnsholt in https://gist.github.com/2476861 the return value of sqlite3_open indicates success, but the connection handle remains a null pointer. http://sqlite.org/c3ref/open.html has the documentation. Any idea what could be wrong?
08:08 moritz arnsholt: read those two messages in reverse order, I accidentally .reverse()d them :-)
08:08 arnsholt Right. They make more sense that way =D
08:08 arnsholt I'll have a look at it in a bit. Sounds odd
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08:13 moritz general question: S19 says that single-letter options and their arguments need to delimited by whitespace
08:13 moritz ie -Ilib needs to become -I lib
08:14 moritz somehow that has never seemed to take off. Should we remove that clause?
08:14 moritz I'm asking because colomon++ has submitted a bug about -Ilib being ignored in rakudo, and I'd like to know whether to make it work
08:15 moritz and the topic has come up during the Oslo hackathon too
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08:17 sorear fwiw, I am a S19 skeptic on many of these points
08:17 sorear the Perl 6 interpreter will be invoked by people who are not Perl 6 programmers
08:18 sorear so it needs to respect POLS from the POV of a generic Unix user
08:18 moritz agreed
08:18 frettled yup
08:18 sorear getopt_long and XtInitialize is already one option parser too many
08:19 frettled Also, for (annoying) backwards compatibility with Perl 5, perhaps there should be a -E, which essentially does the same as -e.
08:20 frettled (I'm a little pissed off at the Perl 5 guys for inventing that particular crud)
08:20 moritz +0
08:20 sorear -0
08:20 moritz I'd say we wait a year or two and see if -E usage takes off in the p5 world
08:21 sorear n: say (-0).perl
08:21 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«0␤»
08:21 sorear n: say (-0e0).perl
08:21 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«0e0␤»
08:21 frettled It already has «taken off».
08:21 * frettled knows several people who regularly use -E instead of -e, because they do «modern» perl on the command line.
08:21 frettled Of course, that's anecdata.
08:22 moritz yes, I use it too. But it doesn't seem to be prevalent in online discussions about perl
08:22 * mikec hadn't heard of it
08:23 sorear mikec, I do not beleive I have welcomed you yet, welcome
08:23 mikec hey
08:24 mikec i've been lurking for a while
08:25 frettled moritz: I think it will take some years before it becomes prevalent.  But AFAIK, use has picked up quite a bit.
08:26 moritz frettled: maybe the better test is to see if people will complain about the lack of -E in Perl 6 compilers
08:27 moritz so far I haven't got any such complaints
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08:31 frettled We haven't had many complaints regarding the utter uselessness of -h either, until Marcus noticed this weekend and I half-jokingly said that it was so because he hadn't fixed it yet – so he went and fixed it.
08:31 frettled I don't think we're quite there that we can take any lack of input from the userbase as indication that there is something amiss.
08:31 frettled s/there is something amiss/there is NOT something amiss/
08:31 imarcusthis I miss -I
08:32 imarcusthis I don't quite understand what -E would do in perl6
08:32 moritz imarcusthis: many people miss -I, which is why I want to fix it
08:32 tadzik good morning
08:32 moritz -E would just be the same as -e
08:33 moritz frettled: regarding -E, I'd propose to just wait and see. If it absence annoys people, eventually they will complain
08:33 moritz good tadzik, morning
08:33 tadzik -E should just alias s() to say() :P
08:33 moritz ah, and then have fun with s/// vs. s() :-)
08:34 frettled tadzik: heh
08:34 * sorear -> sleep
08:34 frettled moritz: I have no problem with that :)
08:43 moritz OH
08:44 moritz currently nqp parses -Ilib as -I -l -i -b
08:44 moritz though I wonder what all those options do :/
08:44 moritz ah, they don't do anything
08:44 moritz it's just that the check that options are declared fails to work for grouped options
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08:53 tadzik it probably expects either -I=lib or --Ilib
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08:54 moritz no, -I is simply NYI
08:55 moritz but there was a bug which made nqp and rakudo silently accept (and ignore) it anyway
08:57 moritz I have a local patch which makes it die instead
08:58 moritz but I guess we really, really want to allow grouping of options that take arguments, and we really want -I to be implemented too
09:01 dalek nqp: 58e7359 | moritz++ | src/HLL/CommandLine.pm:
09:01 dalek nqp: for grouped command line options, check if each is allowed
09:01 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/58e735918c
09:02 moritz but we need that part of the patch anyway
09:02 frettled yup
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09:08 moritz ok, thinking loud about how to implement -Ilib
09:08 frettled I think it's nice to have a space there.
09:09 moritz well, that's the first step
09:09 tadzik okay. If there's a single dash but multiple letters, then it probably wants to be -I=lib
09:09 tadzik same as -MLWP::Simple
09:10 tadzik that may not play nicely with -ne and so
09:11 tadzik maybe it's always the matter of upper/lowercase, or maybe I'm thinking too much about "pass this one test, then we'll think"
09:12 moritz well, with the current spec neither -MLWP::Simpler nor -ne is allowed
09:12 tadzik so neither is -Ilib, I suppose
09:12 moritz but what I'm thinking about this very moment is where to store the command line options
09:12 moritz tadzik: correct
09:12 tadzik and if people clearly want that, and we clearly want that, then it's probably time to change the spec
09:12 moritz but I want to allow at least -I lib for now
09:13 moritz correct
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09:14 frettled tadzik: short-form + = is against the principle of least surprise, too
09:16 tadzik aye
09:16 * tadzik classifies
09:18 frettled But have a look at e.g. ls, which has a fairly decent man page.
09:19 frettled I think it violates consistency a bit by permitting -T15, -T 15 and --tabsize=15
09:19 frettled Then again, it is sort of intuitive, although you have ls -1
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09:44 tadzik the pattern I see here, is that one letter lowercase options do not take arguments, and so can be chained like -pe
09:44 frettled tadzik: except when they do take arguments, and cannot be chained
09:44 moritz like -e
09:44 tadzik the uppercase ones do, hence things like -Ilib or -MModule
09:44 frettled The example with "-T" was not coincidental.
09:44 tadzik right
09:45 frettled But for "ls", the pattern you see is correct.
09:45 frettled (IIRC)
09:45 tadzik hrm
09:45 frettled sed is more perl-like
09:46 tadzik well, we do know whether something takes an argument or not, so this stuff can be figured out
09:46 frettled The way I see it, the least surprising behavior would be to be careful about which single-char options take an argument, and ensure that there is internal consistency.
09:47 tadzik so something that does take anargument is followed by an optional whitespace and this argument
09:47 frettled yup
09:47 frettled And since, as you point out, we know whether or not, that is nearly trivial to handle.
09:47 tadzik should be doable, yes
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09:49 tadzik so we're only left with the spec and the principle of least suprise, as you pointed out
09:49 masak good practically-noon, #perl6.
09:49 frettled So to sum it up: single-letter options can be clustered any way you like – -chnp, -cpnh – as long as they do not take arguments.
09:49 tadzik good still-morning-for-me, masak
09:49 tadzik yes
09:50 frettled If they take arguments, they are permitted to do so with optional whitespace after the option.
09:50 tadzik if they do, they must go at the very end, so they don't violate the "followed by \s* and the argument"
09:51 tadzik we could have a Perl 6 grammar for that
09:52 tadzik in Rakudo's Main.pm we also do, but it serves a bit different purpose
09:52 frettled tadzik: yup
09:53 tadzik so, when do we hack? :)
09:53 masak in http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Search_a_list#Perl_6 , why do we implement &find, when there's already .first ?
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09:53 masak why not at least define &find in terms of .first?
09:53 tadzik if no one does, I'm willing to start a branch today after my classes
09:54 moritz tadzik: fwiw I'm currently doing a patch that allows  -I lib, consistent with the other command line options we have so far
09:54 frettled masak: that code could need some golfing
09:54 tadzik moritz++, great
09:55 dalek tablets: 55ac819 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
09:55 dalek tablets: bold menus are less flimsy and better to click on
09:55 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/55ac819c2e
09:55 dalek tablets: 1d2c1bd | (Herbert Breunung)++ | README.md:
09:55 dalek tablets: more items on: how to help
09:55 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/1d2c1bd4d6
09:55 frettled Plus: «Works with: Rakudo Star version 2010.08»
09:55 jaffa4 IS it you who is writing the perl 6 section for rosettacode?
09:55 moritz fwiw find returns the index, .first doesn't
09:56 masak right, but you can do .first on .pairs
09:56 tadzik maybe it should return a pair
09:56 tadzik but that's probably not per spec
09:56 moritz you could write find as  sub find(Mu $needle, *@haystack) { @haystack.keys.first: { @haystack[$_] ~~ $needle } }
09:57 masak jaffa4: RosettaCode is a wiki. many people contribute programs there, including Perl 6 programs. TimToady has written a fair bunch of them.
09:57 masak moritz: ooh, yes. that's quite nice.
09:57 masak moritz: kinda like "half a Schwarzian transform" ;)
09:57 frettled jaffa4: as masak says, so for all intents of purposes, you are also one of those who write Perl 6 for rosettacode, if you want.
09:57 tadzik :)
09:58 moritz masak: may half of the Schwartz be with you :-)
10:02 lichtkind hes fallen to the dark side
10:03 masak ;)
10:03 * masak backlogs over the jaffa4-moritz discussion
10:03 dalek tablets: 6fc6aa2 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-g-glossary.txt:
10:03 dalek tablets: added dummies for the terms codepoint and graphemes(unicode experts needed)
10:03 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/6fc6aa2785
10:03 dalek tablets: 6743897 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
10:03 dalek tablets: minor format fixes + glossary links
10:03 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/6743897bee
10:03 dalek tablets: a0aa498 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
10:03 dalek tablets: repair entry of $*KERNEL + usual minor fixes
10:03 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/a0aa498026
10:04 machine1 joined #perl6
10:05 masak fwiw, I think everything jaffa4 says comes out grumpy/negative because jaffa4 has different communication prerequisites than most of us.
10:05 masak jaffa4 cares about Perl 6. it's not always evident from his messages that he means well.
10:06 masak most other people know to throw in a "thank you" or a "I'm sorry" or a "that's not how I see it" to grease the wheels of communication. jaffa4, for reasons that have never become evident, doesn't.
10:07 masak that puts more of the burden of making communication flow productively on those that he talks to on the channel.
10:08 masak it still remains to be seen whether we can find ways to cope with that and plug jaffa4 into the community machinery in such a way that he doesn't introduce sand in the wheels.
10:09 masak I for one would like to live in a world where we can have jaffa4 interacting on the channel, *and* sorear and moritz doesn't burn out from it.
10:12 * flussence scrollbacks
10:12 flussence oh. I was wondering when that'd happen...
10:14 lichtkind that does find do?
10:15 masak lichtkind: see the rosetta code URL. &find is not a Perl 6 builtin, it's a subroutine defined in the code at that URL.
10:16 masak if you already found the subroutine, and you're wondering how it works, let me know.
10:20 lichtkind masak: cute i overlooked this array function its not enough documented i think
10:21 moritz which one?
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10:22 masak lichtkind: .first is in S32, right next to .grep
10:22 masak it makes a lot of sense in a lazy-lists world.
10:23 lichtkind masak: i understood the example in this way that there is a list method find beside the IO method find
10:25 * moritz wonders if lichtkind read and understood what masak wrote earlier
10:26 arnsholt moritz: I don't have sqlite3 installed on my work machine (d'oh!), but I think I see a problem
10:26 arnsholt It's sqlite3_open(char *, sqlite3 **), but you declare it as (char *, sqlite3 *), essentially
10:26 lichtkind moritz: oritz yes i mean find seems to be a sort of grep but this is still something different than explained in S32
10:27 arnsholt But I think I should read the docs a bit more before I make a final verdict
10:27 moritz arnsholt: erm, I thought that Opaque*Pointer* was a pointer already, so sqlite3*
10:28 moritz and wrapping a CArray around it makes it sqlite3**
10:28 arnsholt Oh, right. I'm a marroon
10:29 arnsholt But the issue might be related to the additional indirection sqlite wants. Not sure
10:29 moritz hm, what additional info?
10:29 masak lichtkind: there is no List method .find
10:30 masak lichtkind: also, there is no IO method .find
10:30 arnsholt moritz: OH! I know!
10:30 arnsholt (I think)
10:31 bacek joined #perl6
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10:31 arnsholt When you pass the array off to C, the underlying data get twiddled, but since it's a Perl-managed array (supposedly) we don't catch that
10:32 arnsholt We just return the object you stored there in the first place =)
10:32 arnsholt So, yeah. This is a use-case we don't handle yet
10:32 arnsholt Shouldn't be too hard to fix though
10:32 moritz that would be awesome
10:32 moritz though a TransparentPointer that return the pointee as an OpaquePointer would also work for me :-)
10:33 lichtkind masak: thy is find in S32 then under "IO::FileSystems" ?
10:34 lichtkind why
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10:56 lichtkind i was taling about find not first, ok it was just a sub
10:56 lichtkind but its still in 32 as io
10:57 GlitchMr joined #perl6
10:57 lichtkind and "Returns Path objects. Path.Encoding is set to $?ENC unless the $Encoding parameter is passed in (see Path for further discussion of encoding)." can be interpreted in several ways
11:07 lumi_ Is it expected that some spectests fail on rakudo without icu? Is icu a prerequisite for rakudo?
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11:09 masak lichtkind: yeah. consider that part of S32 just empty talk. it's still in there because no-one has removed it yet.
11:09 geekosaur I don't know if rakudo strictly requires icu but I'm pretty sure the spec requires a level of unicode functionality that needs icu or equivalent
11:09 lumi_ geekosaur: I don't think it's unicode functionality that's failing
11:10 lumi_ http://smolder.parrot.org/app/projects/report_details/27772 - these are the failures
11:13 geekosaur that seems to fit under the first part of what I said.
11:13 lichtkind masak: and i im right $?ENC died too
11:14 dalek specs: b5e3bef | (Herbert Breunung)++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
11:14 dalek specs: officially burry find function
11:14 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/b5e3bef0ae
11:16 lumi_ geekosaur: Looking at the failure, I think it's because Test::Util is using :i in a regex
11:17 lumi_ I've installed icu to get better smolders from now on, but I thought I'd bring this up in case this isn't intended
11:18 masak lichtkind: no, $?ENC still seems to be the default for things like .encode
11:19 masak lichtkind: and I seem to recall that TimToady doesn't want UTF-8 to be assumed too much -- just the default default
11:22 colomon moritz: note that -I lib doesn't work either, but at least it produces an error message!  -Ilib just silently fails.
11:25 moritz colomon: yes, https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/58e735918c fixes that (but we don't require that commit yet)
11:25 moritz colomon: "fixes" in the sense of "dying loudly in both cases"
11:27 colomon definitely would be an improvement.
11:29 colomon mind you, I think there should be a way to specify that on the command line without using environment variables.
11:29 moritz agreed
11:29 moritz I'm working on that, but it turns out to be less trivial
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11:43 grondilu p6: .say for map &sprintf.assuming("%x"), ^16;
11:44 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
11:44 p6eval ..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:44 p6eval ..rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in method munch at src/gen/CORE.setting:5092␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4766␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.…
11:45 grondilu this used to work fine :(
11:45 moritz when? and in which compiler?
11:45 moritz I'm a bit surprised it ever worked
11:45 grondilu I don't know exactly.  Something like this was in my Digest module.
11:45 moritz because sprintf has a signature of ($format, *@args)
11:45 grondilu so?
11:45 grondilu "%x" is a format, isn'it?
11:46 moritz yes, but what remains after the .assuming is applied is a signature of (*@args)
11:46 moritz and .map is sensitive to the arity of the block it operates on
11:46 grondilu I don't give a block I give a function
11:46 masak so .map slurps all of the ^16
11:46 masak I don't see the problem either.
11:47 moritz well, it's the same as  sprintf("%x', ^16)
11:47 moritz which should complain about excess arguments
11:47 masak r: my &f = &sprintf.assuming("%x"); .say for map &f, ^16
11:47 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in method munch at src/gen/CORE.setting:5092␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4766␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.…
11:47 moritz grondilu: s/block/callable/ then
11:47 grondilu hang on
11:47 moritz r: sprintf('%x', ^16)
11:47 p6eval rakudo b64c1e:  ( no output )
11:47 moritz r: say sprintf('%x', ^16)
11:47 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:48 masak huh.
11:48 moritz it seems to just ignore all the other arguments
11:48 masak r: say sprintf('%x', |^16)
11:48 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«Method 'FLATTENABLE_LIST' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/3pr8Q1r7SW:1␤␤»
11:48 moritz the format tells it to print only one number
11:48 moritz so that's all it does
11:48 masak right.
11:48 masak there really should be a check there.
11:48 moritz r: say sprintf('%x', |(^16).list)
11:48 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:48 masak for too-many as well as too-few.
11:49 moritz masak: yes, but we can't do that with our current factorinig
11:49 moritz *factoring
11:49 masak I suspected that.
11:49 moritz it requires a complete rewrite of sprintf
11:49 masak aye.
11:49 dalek star: bcb1dfb | bbkr++ | / (2 files):
11:49 dalek star: Added JSON::RPC client and server. All tests successful on 2012.04 Rakudo release.
11:49 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/bcb1dfb87d
11:49 dalek star: 56c614d | moritz++ | / (2 files):
11:49 dalek star: Merge pull request #2 from bbkr/master
11:49 dalek star:
11:49 dalek star: Added JSON::RPC client and server.
11:49 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/56c614d647
11:49 grondilu but doesn't 'assuming' return a callable that could be given as first argument for map??
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11:50 moritz grondilu: assuming just returns a callable with one argument curried
11:50 moritz now this should work:
11:50 moritz r: sub a($a, $b) { sprintf $a, $b }; .say for map &a.assuming('%x'), ^16
11:50 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in method munch at src/gen/CORE.setting:5092␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4766␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.…
11:50 grondilu ah
11:51 grondilu There IS something wrong, isn't there?
11:51 moritz r:  .say for map -> *@a { @a } , ^16
11:51 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«This type cannot unbox to a native integer␤  in method munch at src/gen/CORE.setting:5092␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4766␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4678␤  in method gimme at src/gen/CORE.…
11:51 moritz grondilu: yes, there's something wrong
11:51 arnsholt moritz: On further thought, I think it's fairly easy to recompute the Perl 6 objects in an array, but I'm not entirely sure how to best expose it to Perl 6
11:51 moritz grondilu: and I believe I know what
11:51 * masak submits rakudobug
11:52 moritz it's getting Inf as the parameter count
11:52 moritz and tries to unbox that as an integer
11:52 arnsholt Or maybe we'll just want to do it every time a pointer is passed off to C. I think I'll have a word with jnthn about it
11:52 moritz arnsholt: maybe just do it as an .UPDATE method until we have a better idea
11:53 grondilu Are you going to add this in the test suite to avoid degradation in future?
11:53 grondilu Because really: it used to work.
11:53 moritz yes, but it relied on a bug
11:53 moritz I know how why it used to work
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11:54 moritz "how and why"
11:54 grondilu ok
11:54 moritz but when we fix this bug, it won't work the way you want it to work
11:54 grondilu :(
11:54 grondilu why not??
11:55 moritz because the arity of the callable that you pass to .map decides how many arguments maps passes to the callable
11:55 moritz and your takes as many arguments as it wants
11:55 moritz but let me propose
11:55 moritz r: .say for map *.fmt('%x'), ^16
11:55 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤a␤b␤c␤d␤e␤f␤»
11:56 grondilu oh that's nice
11:56 moritz that works, will continue to work, and is even shorter :-)
11:56 grondilu thanks!
11:56 grondilu I totally forgot about the fmt method
11:57 * grondilu happily edits his Digest module :)
11:58 grondilu hum.  hang on
11:59 masak moritz: is it really .arity that's Inf, and not .count? :)
11:59 grondilu If it's a matter of arity, why 'sub a($a, $b) { sprintf $a, $b }; .say for map &a.assuming('%x'), ^16' does not work?
12:00 moritz masak: it's .count
12:00 moritz grondilu: because .assuming doesn't create the correct signature
12:01 moritz grondilu: it creates a wrapper with signature (*@pos, *%named), and that leads to wrong introspection
12:01 grondilu ok
12:02 masak b: sub x( *@a ) { "hep!" }; .say for map &x, ^16
12:03 p6eval b 922500:  ( no output )
12:03 masak alpha: sub x( *@a ) { "hep!" }; .say for map &x, ^16
12:03 moritz there's no more alpha on p6eval
12:03 masak ah, ok.
12:06 masak maybe just as well.
12:06 masak I finally realize that I'm no longer an alpha user. :)
12:06 masak I was, perhaps longer than most, after ng landed.
12:07 arnsholt masak: jnthn is off doing dayjobby things for most of today, no?
12:07 masak but now I'm a stubborn Beijing holdout instead. and perhaps even those days are over, now that infosophy++ has ported over .changed et al.
12:07 masak arnsholt: yes, he's teaching at a client today. which means offline.
12:07 arnsholt That's what I thought. I'll drop him a not via phenny then
12:08 frettled arnsholt: not a knot?
12:09 * masak .oO( note to language designers: in English, the words "not" and "note" are too close to each other. not good. )
12:09 frettled It can make a not out of something of note.
12:10 arnsholt phenny: tell jnthn moritz++ has uncovered an interesting use-case I hand't thought of. Sometimes we'll create a complex structure, send it off to C to be twiddled and do something with the resulting structure
12:10 phenny arnsholt: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
12:11 arnsholt phenny: tell jnthn Except now we won't pick up on that change, since the array is already populated. We need to write barrier, either implicitly after every call, or explicitly from user code, I think
12:11 phenny arnsholt: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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12:17 lichtkind masak: i wrote unicode not utf-8
12:18 masak lichtkind: ok. I commented on $*ENC, not Unicode/UTF-8.
12:19 masak "Unicode", despite some signs to the contrary, is not an encoding. :)
12:19 lichtkind masak: so there is  an $*ENC
12:19 lichtkind i know
12:20 masak I would say there is an $*ENC, yes.
12:20 masak but I'm curious why you think it's gone, or going.
12:20 lichtkind masak: because its not in the tablets :)
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12:21 masak that seems an odd reason to me.
12:21 dalek tablets: 0ef08c6 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
12:21 dalek tablets: repair zip entry
12:21 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/0ef08c6b67
12:26 lichtkind masak: i looked really hard when i made the category, is there a %?ENC ?
12:26 moritz grep can tell you in a second
12:26 moritz or ack :-)
12:26 masak yes. %?ENC exists.
12:26 masak in fact, before I replied earlier, I used ack just to make sure.
12:27 lichtkind its not in http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S28.html
12:27 masak ok. it probably should be.
12:27 daxim a fine blaag entry, tadzik
12:27 masak lichtkind: are you philosophically opposed to using `grep` or `ack` on the spec dir?
12:28 lichtkind i did it today several times
12:28 lichtkind meaning grep
12:29 lichtkind my point was more in adding it to s28
12:29 masak go right ahead.
12:30 masak forgiveness > permission
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12:33 lichtkind ath what btw is $?NC
12:33 lichtkind ath what btw is $?NF
12:33 lichtkind i see it nowhere explained just in signatures
12:34 masak S28-special-names.pod
12:34 masak 266:$?NF -- unicode normalisation form
12:35 masak lichtkind: seems you can get most of your answers here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_equivalence#Normalization
12:35 masak let me know if there is something else you'd like me to Google for you. ;)
12:36 * masak is just kidding -- he uses Duck Duck Go, of course
12:36 moritz .oO( let me ddg that for you :-) )
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12:40 lichtkind sounds like dig
12:40 lichtkind digg
12:40 lichtkind *
12:40 lichtkind there seemes to be no $*ENC only $?ENC
12:41 lichtkind masak: i acked that myself :)
12:43 masak aye.
12:44 [Coke] can you digg it?
12:44 masak I sometimes confuse %-twigil and ?-twigil variables. they're different, but both are related to configuration of different kinds.
12:44 masak the er, *-twigil.
12:45 masak the ?-twigil variables like %?ENC are meant to be read-only at runtime.
12:45 dalek tablets: 4998d08 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
12:45 dalek tablets: adding $?NF and $?ENC
12:45 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/4998d08247
12:47 uniejo joined #perl6
12:47 [Coke] oh, from backscroll a long time ago: please let's not duplicate perl 5's version number/objects/mess.
12:47 brrt joined #perl6
12:48 masak please be more specific.
12:48 moritz what should we do instead? :-)
12:48 lichtkind masak: so in $?NF is a routine?
12:49 masak lichtkind: I don't think so -- what makes you think that?
12:49 masak if it contained a routine, it would probably have the & sigil.
12:49 lichtkind masak: that this normalisation is an algorithm
12:49 masak lichtkind: yes, but 'NF' stands for 'normalization *form*', which is not an algorithm.
12:49 moritz $?NF is probably the name of a normalization form
12:50 lichtkind moritz: are you sure?
12:50 masak that would be my guess too.
12:50 masak maybe contained in a nice little enumeration or something.
12:50 moritz C, D, KC, KD
12:50 moritz see also: perldoc Unicode::Normalize
12:50 lichtkind i ask tim :)
12:54 colomon n: say (3/2).perl
12:54 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«<3/2>␤»
12:54 colomon r: say (3/2).perl
12:54 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«3/2␤»
12:54 masak r: say <3/2>.perl
12:54 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«"3/2"␤»
12:55 masak r: say <3/2>
12:55 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«3/2␤»
12:55 masak r: say 3/2
12:55 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«1.5␤»
12:55 masak huh! :)
12:55 masak why should these last two be different?
12:55 masak oh wait -- because full <> magic isn't implemented yet, I guess.
12:55 moritz because smart < > isn't implemen... right
12:56 colomon r: say <3/2>.WHAT
12:56 p6eval rakudo b64c1e: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
12:56 colomon n: say <3/2>.WHAT
12:56 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
12:58 masak n: sub foo(Rat $r) { say "OH HAI" }; foo <3/2>
12:58 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:�  $r is declared but not used at /tmp/GrzdqIgRvC line 1:�------> [32msub foo(Rat [33m�[31m$r) { say "OH HAI" }; foo <3/2>[0m��OH HAI�»
12:58 masak n: sub foo(Rat $) { say "OH HAI" }; foo <3/2>
12:58 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
12:58 moritz n: say <3/2>.what
12:58 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method what in class Rat␤  at /tmp/gsxhJqpzyw line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3840 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3841 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤  at /home/p…
12:58 moritz n: say <3/2>.WHAT
12:58 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
12:58 moritz n: say <3/2>
12:58 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«1.5␤»
12:58 moritz I'm pretty sure that's supposed to say 3/2 instead
12:59 moritz preservation of string forms etc.
12:59 masak n: .say for <the judges were 5/2 in favor>
12:59 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«the␤judges␤were␤5/2␤in␤favor␤»
12:59 masak n: say <5/2>
12:59 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«2.5␤»
12:59 masak huh!
13:00 moritz logic, it's not.
13:00 moritz n: say <a 5/2>[1].WHAT
13:00 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«RatStr()␤»
13:01 colomon doesn't the .... oh
13:01 colomon huh
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13:02 tadzik daxim: thank you, kind sir
13:03 dalek tablets: 7ae5661 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
13:03 dalek tablets: linking logical ops to glossary
13:03 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/7ae56612e3
13:04 moritz the problem is really the spec saying 0.5.perl needs to return <1/2>
13:04 masak that doesn't feel round-trippy to me.
13:04 moritz if niecza returned a RatStr for <1/2>, .perl wouldn't round-trip
13:04 masak <1/2> is not exactly equal to 0.5
13:05 moritz well, it is in niecza
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13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: 11c0ab8 | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: be more robust when .count is Inf
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: but does not cover all cases yet
13:22 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/11c0ab8869
13:22 dalek roast: caf19ee | moritz++ | S02-types/mixed_multi_dimensional.t:
13:22 dalek roast: rakudo unfudges
13:22 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/caf19ee1d8
13:23 skids joined #perl6
13:49 masak http://twitter.com/AshBerlin/status/194774960533798913 -- I think this counts as an autopun.
13:50 masak maybe.
13:55 mucker o/ #perl
13:56 colomon \o
13:56 arnsholt \o\
13:57 moritz /o/
13:57 arnsholt \o/
13:57 frettled /o\
13:58 masak (though this is #perl6) :P
13:58 moritz |o|
13:59 mucker wer'e still perl though :)
13:59 colomon tie fighter!
13:59 frettled <o>
13:59 masak oh, sure. some would even argue that we're *more* Perl than Perl 5, because of the higher version number.
13:59 * masak hides
14:00 frettled Yes, our version number (rakudo) is at 2012.something!
14:01 moritz speaking of that version number
14:01 mucker fglock: there ?
14:01 moritz when should we do our rakudo+nqp point releases to base the star release on?
14:01 fglock mucker: hi
14:01 phenny fglock: 23 Apr 23:48Z <japhb> tell fglock See https://gist.github.com/2474657 -- even if it will be some time before perlito6.js can compile rc-forest-fire, it would be nice to stop it from endlessly looping the same error messages.  :-)
14:02 mucker fglock : in src5/lib/Perlito5/Expression.pm and other files, the keyword .. token is used with a diff syntax. How is it possible ??
14:02 PerlJam moritz: now?  :)
14:04 fglock "token" is a subroutine that implements a recursive descent parser, it is implemented at Perlito5::Grammar::Regex; it is only used internally by the compiler
14:05 fglock it is not a keyword, it just looks like one
14:08 mucker it doesn't look like a sub declaration . is it a preprocessor or something ?? https://github.com/themucker/Perlito/blob/master/src5/lib/Perlito5/Grammar/Regex.pm
14:11 zhangkaizhao joined #perl6
14:12 PerlJam mucker: are you asking how "token token" can exist on line 21?
14:12 mucker yup
14:12 fglock it is an implementation of a perl 6 grammar; in perlito5 it is used internally to specify some parts of the syntax
14:12 JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:12 * colomon just added the ability to write multiple notes on a stem (ie explicit chords) to ABC.  :)
14:12 fglock "token token" is possible because the compiler is bootstrapped
14:13 fglock it knows how to compile "token" because it already know how to compile token...
14:14 masak colomon++
14:14 masak fglock: there's always something ticklish about describing metacircular loops.
14:14 colomon masak: turns out my strange music performance needs are leading to the need for lots of ABC improvements.  :)
14:14 masak like it's playing around very close to the concept of infinity.
14:14 masak colomon: scratching ones own itches FTW.
14:14 mucker fglock: Perlito 5 has a translation backend to Perl5. So I am guessing that's where token gets translated to perl5
14:16 fglock if you look at the definition of token token, you will see the place where it generates perl5 code: my $source = ... perl code ...
14:16 fglock this is then compiled to AST, and re-emitted (as perl5 or js)
14:16 fglock it is really a "macro"
14:17 fglock "token" is recompiled as a named subroutine
14:17 fglock named method, actually
14:18 fglock this is just a convenience, the compiler could be written without this
14:18 masak masak's first law about macros: everyone wants everything to be a macro. :)
14:19 fglock yes, macros are fun
14:19 masak they are!
14:20 jaffa4 I had a strange problem
14:20 jaffa4 look: if %priorities{@values[*-1][0]}<%priorities{$next_op}
14:20 moritz use spaces around infix operators
14:20 moritz it's advice i give to anybody who listens
14:21 mucker fglock: o_0 ... must dig deeper :)
14:21 moritz and even to those who don't listen
14:21 jaffa4 I suspected so
14:22 jaffa4 So what did the parser think instead?
14:22 mucker fglock: one last question, who compiles, /Perlito5/Grammar/Regex.pm ? Or is it already bootstrapped and we need not worry about that
14:23 masak jaffa4: it thought that the < was the start of a literal hash key.
14:23 masak jaffa4: like in %hash<foo>
14:23 moritz jaffa4: we've discussed exactly that before, see http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-11#i_5427618 and http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-11#i_5427623
14:23 moritz <moritz> jaffa4: for example a < directly after a term can be parsed as a hash subscript. Unless you put a space before it
14:24 jaffa4 great
14:25 jaffa4 practice makes perfect.
14:25 masak jaffa4++ # :D
14:25 masak moritz++ # for patience and a good memory
14:25 PerlJam moritz++ especially for patience.
14:26 PerlJam There's not enough of that in the world.
14:27 moritz and sometimes there's too much of that in the world.
14:27 * masak feels stressed out just thinking about all the lack of patience in the world
14:27 eiro hello.world()
14:28 eiro masak, any idea about the plan of the perl6 swedish team to join fpw ?
14:28 fglock P::G::Regex is a perl5 file, with a few "token" declarations - so it can be compiled with perlito5 itself; that's what happen when you run: node perlito5.js -I./src5/lib -Cjs src5/util/perlito5.pl > perlito5-new.js
14:28 masak eiro! \o/
14:29 masak eiro: as far as I know, jnthn+masak are set to join fpw. we both had our talks accepted, and at least I have confirmed my talk.
14:29 fglock eiro: o/
14:29 eiro (we're talking about gold right now)
14:29 * masak .oO( au )
14:29 eiro fglock, \o/
14:30 masak from an API standpoint, I wouldn't call a noun "hello" and a verb "world", by the way :P
14:31 fglock mucker: "token" is there for historical reasons; perlito5 was initially bootstrapped using perl6 (perlito6), and it was then rewritten in perl5; but "token" was nice to have arround
14:31 fglock around
14:31 eiro fglock, i don't remember about you joining fpw: can this happen ?
14:31 mucker fglock: understood
14:31 fglock eiro: I don't know, it depends on $job (I don't think it will happen)
14:31 eiro masak, sure... but perl6 is so weird it will have a sense. maybe it can be a perl6 idiom.... the perl6 vernoun
14:33 eiro fglock, any other perlito contributor to make us dream ?
14:35 eiro masak, can you tell me about your travel? are you ok to share the room with jnthn ? any chance to make tadzik join us ?
14:36 masak as to that, you'll have to ask tadzik ;)
14:36 masak (who is not (yet?) part of the Perl 6 Swedish team)
14:37 masak eiro: I'm ok with sharing a room with jnthn. I don't know much about our travel so far. I'm fine with settling details soonish, though.
14:39 eiro masak, ~ 350€ for both of you is reasonnable ? (it's just an approx)
14:40 masak that sounds about right.
14:40 eiro ok... i write it for the moment
14:40 masak especially if we book ahead.
14:40 fglock eiro: I'll ask around
14:41 flussence golf time! http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/spsln/making_my_code_more_efficient/
14:41 eiro fglock, please do it quickly. the sonner we know, the better your stay will be
14:43 masak flussence: [\+], done. :)
14:43 flussence \o/
14:44 masak it's humbling to remember that we were once all beginners, and would write code like the original poster did.
14:45 PerlJam I'm pretty sure I *never* wrote code like that.
14:46 * masak was just waiting for someone to say that :)
14:46 masak PerlJam: well, but generalizing, I think we've all momentarily forgotten that the computer is there to automate tasks for us.
14:46 PerlJam or, more accurately, I started to write it and then quickly became frustrated at the tedium and then started searching for a better way.
14:46 PerlJam But that would have been in BASIC about 30 years ago.
14:47 moritz I asked myself that very question. Yes, I did write rather repetitive code
14:47 masak nowadays it seems much of the trick to programming is applying just the right amounts of automation to a problem.
14:47 PerlJam masak: aye, I'll agree with that.
14:47 moritz but no, not quite as bad as the reddit OP
14:48 PerlJam masak: also, the right amount of "engineering" too.
14:48 brrt i've written code like that, in basic as a matter of fact
14:49 brrt never really got far that way
14:49 jaffa4 r: say "0" ~~ 0
14:49 p6eval rakudo 11c0ab: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:49 PerlJam I've got a coworker who can not seem  to help himself when it comes to solving problems.  He immediately jumps to the generalization and expands the scope to include "normalizing" the design even when it's not warranted
14:50 masak PerlJam: nowadays, such repetition and avoidance of the conveniences of loops is one of the things I find hardest about reviewing code from absolute beginners. the other is not abstracting magic values enough, and spreading them all through the code.
14:50 TimToady .oO(he should be a language designer... :)
14:51 PerlJam masak: I wonder if, one day, we'll look at the code we write today in much the same way as we look at the OP's code?  Just yesterday I was looking at a nested loop I wrote in Perl 6 and thought, "why the hell did I do that instead of use the xx and X operators?"
14:51 PerlJam (then I promptly rewrote the looping to use those ops :)
14:51 masak PerlJam: yes, I think that's inevitable.
14:52 TimToady the new tools are shinier, and sometimes better
14:52 jaffa4 xx and X are, they lazily evaluated?
14:52 flussence I really like those metaops, it's like SQL without the COBOL.
14:52 TimToady but sometimes you actually want a hammer
14:52 masak jaffa4: yes.
14:52 PerlJam It's all about what conceptual tools we have in our toolbox I guess.  If you don't have the idea of "loops", you write them out long-hand.
14:52 PerlJam If you don't have the idea of the X op, then you write out a loop
14:53 JimmyZ http://cpanratings.perl.org/user/psaperl
14:53 masak PerlJam: I had a mini-realization during the Oslo hackathon, that that's how current modern languages will eventually grow old. there's just no way we can accurately predict our needs 50 or 100 years down the road. eventually the syntax can't keep up with all the new demands.
14:54 JimmyZ I'm sad
14:54 PerlJam masak: it's a good thing Perl 6 can adapt ;)
14:54 jaffa4 How can Perl adapt?
14:55 PerlJam jaffa4: it's meta-enough that it can rewire itself.
14:55 masak PerlJam: yes, that seems to be one of the goals. we're not there yet in terms of implementations, though.
14:56 PerlJam we'll get there eventually.
14:56 TimToady we can see both sides of that mountain, and have already tunnelled most of the way through
14:57 moritz the problem is that much of the syntax rewritability in Perl 6 is new
14:57 moritz and it might need a few generations to become really good
14:57 PerlJam oddly I was thinking it was kind of like driving towards mountains in the desert southwest US.    You've driven for hours and the mountain doesn't look any closer, but it is.  And if you keep driving, you'll get there at some point.
14:58 TimToady well, that's one problem; we don't really know what syntax we want for the slang tweaking
14:58 TimToady the other problem is, of course, performance of the parser
14:58 masak PerlJam: sounds like a scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
14:59 mikec hey, i've been trying the latest MiniDBI::Pg. all the tests pass (woo!) but in my own code, i get a segfault after executing fetchrow some number of times
15:00 masak PerlJam: this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJoM7V54T-c
15:01 mikec is there something i can try/help with?
15:01 moritz mikec: can you please use MiniDBI as of a7cfbbe8f7c3236f496738faf57e629871fead99 and see if it segfaults with that version too?
15:01 PerlJam masak: heh
15:02 moritz mikec: that's the last commit before I switched MiniDBD::Pg to prepared statements
15:02 mikec moritz: sure
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15:06 masak PerlJam: I've also heard the argument that strong AI will develop like that. that it will be developed in a long stretch which looks like no progress at all, and then suddenly already developed components will self-reinforce and lead to a sudden result.
15:06 PerlJam and skynet will be written in perl 6
15:07 moritz you mean it isn't already? :-)
15:07 masak will have been being written in perl 6
15:07 PerlJam We could ask Damian ... he does that time-travel thing all the time.
15:07 TimToady only if we get the parser reading Perl 6 as fast as a human does...oh wait, it already does that
15:07 * flussence reads some of the p5p thread from JimmyZ's link and backs away slowly
15:07 flussence (are they always that crazy?)
15:09 TimToady no, sometimes they're crazier...</rimshot>
15:09 PerlJam that would be funny if it weren't true.
15:10 TimToady some things can be funny and true too
15:10 masak rjbs++ # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2012/02/msg183053.html
15:10 PerlJam that one would be sadly funny then.  The laughter would be of despair.
15:11 masak will the Perl 6 community have such email threads too, if/when Perl 6 takes off enough?
15:11 TimToady absolutely
15:11 masak yeah. I don't see why not.
15:11 moritz it almost makes me wish for Perl 6 to stay small. Almost.
15:12 TimToady but hopefully also with the sane people keeping the peace as well
15:12 masak "It's not what you do, it's what you do after", eh? :)
15:12 masak that's why I ++'ed rjbs.
15:12 PerlJam You can't only ever get just the pleasant parts of an ecosystem
15:12 PerlJam But you can look for signs where not to step
15:13 TimToady .oO(The best of all possible worlds is not the best of all possible worlds, but one of those in the middle.)
15:14 masak that's how I feel when I play Go.
15:14 mikec moritz: still segfaults. this is a fresh rakudo install so i could have done something wrong, but the tests seem ok
15:14 masak if I ever use a tactic too extremely, it becomes a weakness that the opponent will use against me.
15:15 alvis`` joined #perl6
15:16 moritz mikec: unlikely; if you did something wrong, you'd get an error while loading the modules
15:17 moritz mikec: can you give me a backtrace please?
15:18 spaceships joined #perl6
15:19 alvis joined #perl6
15:22 araujo joined #perl6
15:28 mikec moritz: sure, what kind of backtrace?
15:29 * TimToady doesn't mix up "not" and "note" nearly as often as he mixes up "not" and "now".
15:29 TimToady ...which does now make me very happy...
15:30 masak :P
15:40 frettled TimToady: how about know, now?
15:40 TimToady that to.
15:41 flussence joined #perl6
15:42 thou joined #perl6
15:42 PerlJam hot not brown cot ?
15:42 * masak wonders if he makes any such mistakes in Esperanto, which has a 1-to-1 letter/sound correspondence
15:43 masak seems I make other kinds of errors instead.
15:43 sftp joined #perl6
15:44 PerlJam self-knowledge is half the battle
15:44 dagelf joined #perl6
15:44 TimToady flussence: xx and X are lazy, but only on one side (though for different reasons)
15:47 TimToady well, technically, X is lazy on both sides, but if you put an infinite list on the right you'll never find the second value on the left
15:47 masak good thing actual infinities don't exist. :P
15:48 TimToady perl6: .say for 1..* X* 1..*
15:48 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«(timeout)1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤11␤12␤13␤14␤15␤16␤17␤18␤19␤20␤21␤22␤23␤24␤25␤26␤27␤28␤29␤30␤31␤32␤33␤34␤35␤36␤37␤38␤39␤40␤41␤42␤43␤44␤45␤46␤47␤48␤49␤50␤51␤52␤53␤54␤55␤56␤57␤58␤59␤60␤61␤62␤63␤64␤65␤66␤67␤68␤69␤70␤71␤72␤73␤74␤75␤76␤77␤78␤79␤8
15:48 p6eval ..rakudo 11c0ab: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
15:48 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "1"␤    expecting operator␤    at /tmp/HKYo4Wy2xB line 1, column 18␤»
15:48 masak PerlJam: I read that as "self-knowledge is half the bottle", and thought you were advocating a booze-based spelling strategy. :)
15:49 TimToady ooh, rakudobug!
15:49 * masak submits it
15:49 TimToady it's evaluating the RHS eagerly
15:49 masak aye.
15:50 * PerlJam predicts that there will be many (more) bugs of the "insufficient laziness" variety.
15:50 masak TimToady: what's the category for X again? infix_prefix?
15:51 TimToady list_infix
15:51 TimToady though the spec is perhaps misleading when it says "Only the leftmost list may usefully be an infinite list."
15:51 TimToady $prefix X~ @infinitelist is potentially useful
15:52 masak aye.
15:52 goraki joined #perl6
15:52 colomon +1
15:53 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:56 PerlJam Have you guys seen http://shelr.tv/ ?
15:58 * masak decommutes
16:00 alvis joined #perl6
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16:01 dalek specs: ba1bf15 | larry++ | S03-operators.pod:
16:01 dalek specs: sometimes X like an infinite list on the right
16:01 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/ba1bf150aa
16:19 jerome_ joined #perl6
16:26 moritz mikec: C-level
16:46 xinming joined #perl6
16:46 Chillance joined #perl6
16:53 PacoAir joined #perl6
16:56 colomon TimToady: I think I'd replace "In this last case it's okay to have an infinite list on the right." with "In this last case it's sensible to have an infinite list on the right."  It's always okay to have an infinite list on the right, it's just not particularly useful most of the time.
16:59 REPLeffect joined #perl6
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17:11 * colomon is wishing acciaccatura where not the correct technical term, because it's a pain to spell
17:12 sorear good * #perl6
17:15 colomon \o
17:15 moritz sorear, colomon o/
17:16 colomon moritz!
17:16 moritz the very same :-)
17:19 colomon sorear: FIRST and LAST don't work yet, right?  I just found a handy use case for them in the ABC code.  ;)
17:20 sorear Right
17:21 * TimToady keeps wishing for a way to specify a subscript before the array subscripted, and wonders if 42.@foo can sanely be made to do that (assuming we de-spec the current speckage of .@foo)
17:21 colomon TimToady: !!!!  why?
17:22 TimToady to keep left-to-right flow, and to allow *.@foo
17:22 TimToady currently we must write { @foo[$_] } for that
17:22 TimToady which is a bit clunky
17:22 sorear I am not opposed
17:23 colomon for what it's worth, that makes me frown.
17:23 TimToady and an array is essentially a function
17:23 colomon (the proposed fix, that is, not the problem.)
17:23 sorear to the concept, anyway
17:24 wolfman2000 joined #perl6
17:24 TimToady more interested in the reversal than the succinctness
17:24 sorear I'm pretty sure I've seen lan guages use @foo.42, which makes me think 42.@foo would be confusing
17:25 sorear I think J did indexing as 42{@foo, but probably best not to copy that syntax
17:25 s1n joined #perl6
17:26 TimToady well, maybe not directly confusing, but @foo.@bar might be confusing in a DIHWIDT way
17:26 colomon sorear: new to me niecza error:
17:26 colomon Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method from in class
17:26 colomon P6+{term:sym<∅>},{infix:sym<∈>},{infix:sym<(elem)>},{infix:sym<∉>},{infix:sym<∋>},{infix:sym<(cont)>},{infix:sym<∌>},{infix:sym<∪>},{infix:sym<(|)>},{infix:sym<∩>},{infix:sym<(&)>},{infix:sym<(-)>},{infix:sym<(^)>},{infix:sym<⊆>},{infix:sym<(<=)>},{infix:sym<⊈>},{infix:sym<⊂>},{infix:sym<(<)>},{infix:sym<⊄>},{infix:sym<⊇>},{infix:sym<(>=)>},{infix:sym<⊉>},{infix:sym<⊃>},{infix:sym<(>)>},{infix:sym<⊅>},{i
17:26 colomon m<⊍>},{infix:sym<(.)>},{infix:sym<⊎>},{infix:sym<(+)>}
17:27 * sorear blinks
17:27 sorear location?
17:27 moritz there's a class that all those operators and terms mixed in?
17:27 TimToady 42 from @foo   # maybe he's playing with this kind of thing
17:27 colomon at /Users/colomon/tools/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 3075 (P6.infix:lambda @ 29)
17:27 colomon at /Users/colomon/tools/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 0 (STD.infix @ 3)
17:27 colomon at /Users/colomon/tools/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 3157 (P6.infixish @ 42)
17:27 colomon at /Users/colomon/tools/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 4582 (ANON @ 7)
17:27 colomon (etc)
17:28 colomon I think this is the code in question:
17:28 colomon $lilypond ~= "\\grace \{" ~
17:28 colomon if $element.value.notes == 1 {
17:28 sorear oh, no wonder I never noticed that bug
17:28 colomon obviously an error
17:28 sorear infix:lambda is not called ever when parsing correct code
17:28 colomon sorear: clearly you need to write more incorrect code.  ;)
17:29 * colomon is always glad to be of service that way...
17:30 zhangkaizhao joined #perl6
17:30 sorear colomon: can you hold on to the testcase for a couple hours?
17:31 colomon sorear: I will duplicate it for future reference for you, but I kind of need to fix my bug ASAP.
17:31 * colomon needs to have this score ready for rehearsal at 7 tonight.
17:36 * colomon now has grace notes working!
17:36 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:37 moritz \o/
17:38 jaldhar joined #perl6
17:39 * masak home
17:40 machine1 joined #perl6
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17:48 dalek rakudo/nom: b1d764d | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
17:48 dalek rakudo/nom: update ChangeLog
17:48 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b1d764dad9
17:49 moritz ok, here's the big question: should the rakudo point release get its own release number and name?
17:50 PerlJam well, it's going to have it's own number  :)
17:50 PerlJam but, I don't have a problem with eliding the name
17:51 moritz ... release #51.5 ("Brazos Valley 1.5")
17:51 benabik .5 ?
17:51 moritz we already had a release in 2012.04
17:52 moritz we just want to release something with the results of that awesome hackathon
17:52 benabik Ah.
17:52 moritz to be able to base an R* release on it
17:52 pyrimidine \o/ # Brazos Valley
17:52 PerlJam Call it "Brazos Valley Star" :)
17:52 [Coke] don't want to wait a month to cut the next *?
17:52 moritz PerlJam: that will confuse everybody, since it's not the star release :-)
17:53 pyrimidine I happened to go to college there, way back when
17:53 PerlJam or "Brazos Valley Oslo"
17:53 moritz [Coke]: no, don't wanna wait, we already skipped the March star release
17:53 moritz PerlJam: :-)
17:54 * PerlJam wonders when we'll start synchronizing the R* releases to linux dist releases.
17:54 moritz PerlJam: of which linux distro? :-)
17:54 pochi joined #perl6
17:55 PerlJam indeed :)
17:55 dalek perl6-bench: f6f5ec2 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | TODO:
17:55 dalek perl6-bench: Add a first cut TODO file
17:55 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-bench/commit/f6f5ec203b
17:55 PerlJam moritz: actually, the real questions is ... how do we sponsor hackathons more often and prior to releases?
17:56 [Coke] ask karen @ TPF for a sixathon hackathon grant?
17:56 moritz grant is not enough, we also need an organizer
17:56 PerlJam yep
17:57 moritz the next big meeting will probably be YAPC::EU in Frankfurt
17:57 * [Coke] would volunteer Albany.pm except we don't exist. ;)
17:57 [Coke] who is going to YAPC::NA this year?
17:57 [Coke] aloha, going to YAPC::NA 2012?
17:57 [Coke] aloha, seen me?
17:57 aloha [Coke]: me was last seen in #parrot 247 days 16 hours ago saying "how many messages do I have?".
18:01 PerlJam [Coke]: are you going to YAPC::NA this year?
18:03 dalek rakudo/nom: e126aa9 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2012.04.1:
18:03 dalek rakudo/nom: add early release announcement for a 2012.04.1 point release
18:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e126aa92dd
18:03 sisar joined #perl6
18:05 moritz feedback welcome
18:10 imarcusthis joined #perl6
18:12 dalek rakudo/nom: a83a4ba | moritz++ | docs/announce/2012.04.1:
18:12 dalek rakudo/nom: [announce] say thanks to Oslo.pm
18:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a83a4badc9
18:17 jnthn evening, #perl6
18:17 phenny jnthn: 12:10Z <arnsholt> tell jnthn moritz++ has uncovered an interesting use-case I hand't thought of. Sometimes we'll create a complex structure, send it off to C to be twiddled and do something with the resulting structure
18:17 phenny jnthn: 12:11Z <arnsholt> tell jnthn Except now we won't pick up on that change, since the array is already populated. We need to write barrier, either implicitly after every call, or explicitly from user code, I think
18:17 moritz \o jnthn
18:18 * jnthn is exhausted
18:20 jnthn phenny: tell arnsholt is it more complex that checking the underlying pointer of the child object matches the one in the real struct, and just updating the child object before returning it if so?
18:20 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when arnsholt is around.
18:21 jnthn phenny: tell arnsholt s/that/than/
18:21 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when arnsholt is around.
18:21 jnthn phenny: also, s/if so/if not/
18:21 jnthn ...yeah, exhausted indeed :)
18:25 fglock reading about google drive - perl in the browser could use the API to simulate a hard disk
18:25 fglock may be good for perl training some day
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18:40 arnsholt jnthn: I acually think we can get away with just setting the child_obj pointer to NULLwhen updated
18:40 phenny arnsholt: 18:20Z <jnthn> tell arnsholt is it more complex that checking the underlying pointer of the child object matches the one in the real struct, and just updating the child object before returning it if so?
18:40 phenny arnsholt: 18:21Z <jnthn> tell arnsholt s/that/than/
18:41 jnthn arnsholt: How do we know when it's updated?
18:41 moritz r: sub f { 2, :foo<bar> }; say f().perl
18:41 p6eval rakudo e126aa: OUTPUT«(2, "foo" => "bar")␤»
18:42 ajs joined #perl6
18:42 moritz r: sub f { return 2, :foo<bar> }; say f().perl
18:42 p6eval rakudo e126aa: OUTPUT«(2, "foo" => Mu)␤»
18:42 ajs Sorry, got boused
18:42 ajs bounced
18:42 moritz ok, works without &return
18:42 Guest19086 hmm... interesting.
18:43 jnthn arnsholt: As in, what if C land diddles with the struct later?
18:43 ajs_noreally r: say try { die("a") }
18:43 p6eval rakudo e126aa: OUTPUT«a␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/jERwR_AVXh:1␤␤»
18:43 moritz it should really return Nil, but currently it returns the exception
18:43 ajs_noreally Ah, OK. I was wondering why this returned Nil:
18:44 ajs_noreally r: say try { die("a"); CATCH { return "b" } }
18:44 p6eval rakudo e126aa: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
18:44 jnthn ...which wsa OKer when the Exception was false in boolean context, I guess :)
18:44 arnsholt C fiddling with it later is a good point
18:44 moritz r: return 'b'
18:44 p6eval rakudo e126aa: OUTPUT«Attempt to return outside of any Routine␤  in block <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:340␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/1CxUi9c7lA:1␤␤»
18:45 moritz that's what it should do
18:45 jnthn uh
18:45 moritz because you're not inside a routine
18:45 jnthn I suspect it does
18:45 jnthn but then the try catches that exception
18:45 jnthn maybe
18:45 jnthn :)
18:45 arnsholt Vut after return it would indeed be a simple matter of checking the pointers for equality
18:45 jnthn arnsholt: Vat if the update comes later, e.g. callback style?
18:45 arnsholt AFAICT at least
18:46 arnsholt Yeah, that one's harder
18:46 moritz jnthn: iirc CATCH shouldn't have anything to do with return
18:46 arnsholt (With apologies for spelling. On phone)
18:46 jnthn moritz: Agree, but the exception thrown when you attempt to return outside of any routine is a normal exception.
18:47 moritz jnthn: oh, right
18:47 jnthn I don't think it's doing the right thing overall, mind.
18:47 jnthn But that's probably why it's doing something odd.
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18:51 ajs_noreally Yeah, that's just me mis-using return... I tried some permutations (assigning to $!, succeed, etc)
18:51 * jnthn -> dinner
18:52 ajs_noreally But if try isn't supposed to have a return value, that solves my problem (perhaps not in the way I wanted ;-)
18:52 ajs_noreally It would have been nice to be able to say "my $foo = try { something_dangerous() };
18:53 ajs_noreally Rather than "my $foo; try { $foo = something_dangerous() }"
18:53 tadzik eiro: I'm fine with sharing rooms :)
18:54 tadzik eiro: that said, I can't tell (yet) if I'll be at FPW
18:54 tadzik I'd love to, but I can't yet guarantee that I won't have my exams then
18:55 ajs_noreally I suppose it's easy enough to define it myself...
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18:57 colomon huh.  Apparently putting a chord in a 2nd ending makes the ABC parser loop forever.  :(
18:59 ajs_noreally r: sub attempt(&block) { my $ret; try { $ret = &block() }; return $ret; }; my $foo = attempt { die("a") }; say $foo; my $bar = attempt { "b" }; say $bar;
18:59 p6eval rakudo e126aa: OUTPUT«Any()␤b␤»
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18:59 ajs_noreally That works
19:13 colomon n: say "[K:G] [G3/2 D3/2]B,/2 B,3/2[B/2 G/2]" ~~ / '[' <alpha> ':' $<value>=[.*?] ']' /;
19:13 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(5) text([K:G]) pos([].list) named({"alpha" => #<match from(1) to(2) text(K) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, "value" => #<match from(3) to(4) text(G) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>}.hash)>␤»
19:15 sorear I'm back for a moment
19:16 s1n joined #perl6
19:17 colomon sorear: the above bit just went completely wrong in the ABC grammar -- did something like .* instead of .*?
19:19 sorear colomon: perhaps because of automatic end anchoring?
19:21 colomon I don't think that can be it... hmmm.
19:21 * colomon is adding tests directed at this issue.
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19:24 lichtkind is .slice an alias to lol() ?
19:24 sorear no, .slice is an obsolete name for .lol
19:25 sorear actually it might be .tree now, I can't keep up
19:25 lichtkind :)
19:25 lichtkind so i should remove .slice?
19:25 sorear Probably
19:26 masak yes, .lol used to be spelled .slice
19:27 dalek tablets: 5079632 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
19:27 dalek tablets: replacing slice in snippets
19:27 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/5079632618
19:28 sergot joined #perl6
19:28 sergot Hello o/ ! :)
19:28 moritz sorear: if you have a list (or parcel) of parcels, .lol returns a LoL. .tree returns a list with itemized arrays or lists init
19:28 moritz sorear: at least that's my current understanding :-)
19:28 moritz \o sergot
19:29 sergot I'm back at home. I slept the whole day :)
19:29 tadzik :)
19:29 tadzik I'm not suprised
19:29 sergot And... I feel better. :)
19:29 moritz \o/
19:29 masak sergot! \o/
19:29 tadzik I'm not used to waking up at 3:30 either
19:30 tadzik good to hear that :)
19:30 sergot \o/ masak !
19:30 sergot :)
19:30 masak sergot: I just want to say -- it was great to meet you. glad you came along to Oslo!
19:30 moritz agreed
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19:31 sergot masak: it was nice to meet you too. Unfortunately I couldn't say it in Oslo, didn't know that You go home at Sunday.
19:31 sergot Thank You for everything guys. :)
19:32 dalek specs: 621ba5e | (Herbert Breunung)++ | S (3 files):
19:32 dalek specs: s/.slice/.lol/
19:32 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/621ba5e098
19:32 moritz r: say (1, (2, 3), (4, 5)).lol.perl
19:32 colomon sorear: (or anyone...) suggestions on how to build a regex which says "any character but ]"?
19:32 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«LoL.new(1, $(2, 3), $(4, 5))␤»
19:32 colomon <-[\]]> ?
19:32 moritz r: say (1, (2, 3), (4, 5)).tree.perl
19:32 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«(1, [2, 3], [4, 5]).list␤»
19:32 PerlJam colomon: seems reasonable
19:33 colomon n: say "[K:G] [G3/2 D3/2]B,/2 B,3/2[B/2 G/2]" ~~ / '[' <alpha> ':' $<value>=[<-[\]]>*?] ']' /;
19:33 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(5) text([K:G]) pos([].list) named({"alpha" => #<match from(1) to(2) text(K) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, "value" => #<match from(3) to(4) text(G) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>}.hash)>␤»
19:33 colomon n: say ~("[K:G] [G3/2 D3/2]B,/2 B,3/2[B/2 G/2]" ~~ / '[' <alpha> ':' $<value>=[<-[\]]>*?] ']' /;)
19:33 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«[K:G]␤»
19:33 lichtkind LoL is a type object?
19:34 masak sergot: yeah, we missed saying good bye. good thing there's IRC, where everyone is in the same room all the time ;)
19:35 sergot masak: right! :)
19:35 tadzik even when they're not :)
19:35 sergot ;]
19:35 sergot So.. I'll blog about Hackathon today! Hope it's not too late. :P
19:36 tadzik blog posts everyday! \o/
19:36 imarcusthis joined #perl6
19:36 [Coke] PerlJam: it is plausible, but not a lock.
19:36 [Coke] (going to yapc)
19:37 * colomon won't know for another two weeks, probably
19:37 sergot tadzik: i'll have enough time to do this after ... school. :P
19:37 sergot I'll end school at 11th May.
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19:38 sergot at? :)
19:38 moritz on
19:38 sergot moritz++ thanks :)
19:38 dalek specs: d3ec849 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod~:
19:38 dalek specs: dang i have to remove another temp file
19:38 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/d3ec849849
19:40 tadzik sergot: I just meant that there's a new Oslo hackathon blog post everyday :)
19:41 sergot tadzik: oh, sorry. misunderstanding. :)
19:42 sergot To co ma byc w Niemczech, to YAPSI, tak?
19:42 sergot Czy jak to sie nazywalo? :)
19:42 sergot sorry. no there
19:42 sergot not*
19:42 tadzik haha
19:43 dalek roast: 47bf8e1 | moritz++ | S05-modifier/ignorecase.t:
19:43 dalek roast: test that :i affects interpolated literals too
19:43 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/47bf8e1fe8
19:43 sergot :D
19:44 masak phenny: "To co ma byc w Niemczech, to YAPSI, tak? Czy jak to sie nazywalo? :)"?
19:44 phenny masak: "What is to be in Germany, it YAPSI , right? Or, as it was called ? :)" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
19:44 * masak loves it when people confuse those two :)
19:44 sergot I was talking about YAPC, not YAPSI :P
19:44 sergot :D
19:46 vlixes joined #perl6
19:46 * colomon really, really wishes the grammar debugging tools worked in Niecza.
19:48 xinming_ joined #perl6
19:49 moritz rakudo: sub foo($x? is rw) { $x = "OH HAI" };
19:49 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use 'is rw' on an optional parameter␤»
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19:59 masak r: my ($a is rw) = 5; say $a; $a = 42; say $a
19:59 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«5␤42␤»
20:00 colomon Aha!  My problem was caused by putting spaces inside my chords.
20:00 masak r: my ($a is readonly) = 5; say $a; $a = 42; say $a
20:00 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«5␤42␤»
20:00 masak colomon: space chords!
20:00 colomon masak: better than space pipers!
20:01 masak lichtkind: what kind of git setup are you using that has you committing temp files into the spec?
20:01 masak lichtkind: also, can we help?
20:02 * masak .oO( there's this nice little thing called the staging area... )
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20:04 colomon masak: http://www.amazon.com/Space-Piper-Rare-Air/dp/B000005COD
20:05 lichtkind masak:  it was in the subdir , i didnt see that i add an ~ file
20:05 moritz the solution is pretty easy
20:05 moritz don't use 'git add' with a subdir
20:06 moritz and also tell your editor not to write backup files next to the original file
20:06 moritz that's just very bad habits
20:06 masak what moritz said.
20:07 doy also: a global .gitignore that includes *~
20:07 masak I thought merge commits looked bad in the commit history, but they come a pretty distant second to accidental pushing of temp file commits.
20:07 masak lichtkind: do you know about 'git commit --amend'?
20:07 lichtkind moritz:  my editor dies that just when you told him i used gedit as a sidekick
20:07 lichtkind masak: whatsthat?
20:08 masak lichtkind: it's in the manual. enjoy.
20:08 lichtkind moritz: does that ... :)
20:08 * colomon thinks he has ABC stable enough to finish the Wedding March
20:09 masak lichtkind: another good habit is to 'git add <stuff>' followed by 'git status' to see what you just did.
20:10 * awwaiid likes his 'git rec' alias
20:10 masak and then, after checking, 'git commit'.
20:10 masak awwaiid: wotsit do?
20:12 awwaiid Acts like hg/darcs record, interactively prompting to accept individual diff chunks and then stage/committing (or abandoning) in a single step. http://thelackthereof.org/docs/dotfiles/.gitconfig
20:12 PerlJam awwaiid: isn't that just "git add -p" ?
20:12 awwaiid keeps me from committing things that I didn't mean to commit. doesn't actually help with newly added files though I guess
20:13 awwaiid PerlJam, it is git add -p, plus some stuff that will trash it if you abort
20:13 awwaiid oh, and it does the git commit too
20:14 awwaiid as with many things for the git construction kit, probably just personal taste :)
20:14 PerlJam aye
20:15 masak sounds kinda neat.
20:15 PerlJam git is neat :)
20:15 PerlJam it's the swiss army chainsaw of revision control systems  ;)
20:16 masak it is, isn't it?
20:16 masak there's some funny resonance between Perl and git.
20:16 masak they're "alike", even across technologies.
20:16 PerlJam yep.   It's one of the reason I use git, in fact.
20:16 awwaiid masak, see my above gitconfig to give git rec a whirl, and if you like it let me know :)
20:16 masak which, of course, is why Python people prefer Mercurial :P
20:16 masak awwaiid: will do.
20:16 PerlJam I looked at bzr, hg, and git.   git just fit my brain and felt like it had the perl-nature
20:17 masak git has the Unix nature, too.
20:22 dalek tablets: 8c94989 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (2 files):
20:22 dalek tablets: added useful crosslinks for minmax and s///
20:22 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/8c94989319
20:29 dalek tablets: 32cc840 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
20:29 dalek tablets: put links of special vars in right case
20:29 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/32cc840965
20:34 dalek tablets: 0f9a363 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
20:34 dalek tablets: polish entries for note and warn
20:34 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/0f9a36365b
20:39 colomon "YAPC::NA 2012 is officially sold out!" -- guess I'm not going this year after all
20:45 masak Perl, alive and kicking, and more sold out than ever!
20:46 dalek tablets: 63617b7 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
20:46 dalek tablets: polish entires for "words" "Whatever" and "trans"
20:46 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/63617b7e0b
20:50 leprevost joined #perl6
20:51 masak r: class A {}; class B { has A $.a }; say A.new(:b(B.new)); say A.new(:b(42))
20:51 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«A.new()␤A.new()␤»
20:51 masak hm, no attribute type checking yet.
20:52 sjohnson left #perl6
20:52 doy isn't that backwards
20:53 masak oh, yes.
20:53 masak r: class A {}; class B { has A $.a }; say B.new(:a(A.new)); say B.new(:a(42))
20:53 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«B.new(a => A.new())␤Type check failed in assignment to '$!a'; expected 'A' but got 'Int'␤  in block <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:598␤  in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:582␤  in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:572␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.set…
20:53 masak oh!
20:53 masak jnthn++
20:53 masak :)
21:08 masak r: say &infix:<+>
21:08 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«sub infix:<+>($a?, $b?) { ... }␤»
21:08 masak r: say &[+]
21:08 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«sub infix:<+>($a?, $b?) { ... }␤»
21:08 masak r: multi &[+]($a, $b) { say "OH HAI" }
21:08 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤The () shape syntax in routine declarations is reserved (maybe use :() to declare a longname?)␤at /tmp/5RS8HCRppK:1␤»
21:10 icwiener Hi, is there something like basename yet in Rakudo? When searching for it I only get Perl5 code  and quite some pages which, although shown in the text example of the search hit, do not contain the word basename.
21:12 icwiener (I still have to figure out what the most promising way to find info about language feature is.)
21:12 masak r: say IO.^methods
21:12 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«␤»
21:13 masak icwiener: if it's spec'd, it will be found in S16 or S32.
21:13 benabik I don't see basename in the tables.
21:13 benabik *tablets
21:13 icwiener Oh, "^methods" is nice.
21:14 icwiener I will have a look at S16 and S32 and do it manually if I have to. :)
21:15 lichtkind benabik: what is basename?
21:15 icwiener Thanks so far. :)
21:15 lichtkind benabik: would you add it?
21:16 benabik lichtkind: It may not exist in P6.  Looks like it was a module in P5.
21:19 icwiener File::basename
21:19 donaldh joined #perl6
21:19 icwiener In Perl5
21:19 icwiener Make "Foo" out of "/path/tp/Foo.txt".
21:19 icwiener *Made
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21:27 lichtkind icwiener: thanks but sounds to me as a method for the path object
21:30 icwiener lichtkind: Oh, I agree. :)
21:36 icwiener joined #perl6
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21:45 lichtkind what you would prefer: if linkung to a term and the term glues on top of page or is bit more down but the previous entry is  visible too?
21:46 lichtkind masak: any preference?
21:47 lichtkind icwiener: any opinion?
21:48 icwiener lichtkind: I do not understand the question. Might I have missed something during my reconnect?
21:48 lestrrat joined #perl6
21:49 lichtkind icwiener: i just had the thought it would be nicer when the item you jump to isnt glued to the top border of the page
21:49 lichtkind but it might confuse some if previous entry is visible too
21:50 icwiener lichtkind: You mean on http://perlcabal.org/syn?
21:50 lichtkind icwiener: no on http://tablets.perl6.org/appendix-a-index.html#w
21:51 icwiener I think since it is the browser who does it it is 1) hard to change nicely and 2) confusing if one site  does it differently than other sites.
21:53 masak ok, I wrote a solver for the boy-with-apples problem: https://gist.github.com/2484152
21:53 masak I'm very pleased with the solution.
21:56 lichtkind icwiener: thnk you
21:59 lichtkind happy masak :)
22:08 dalek tablets: 79add42 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
22:08 dalek tablets: added links to index and glossary
22:08 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/79add42df9
22:08 dalek tablets: 0b4206e | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
22:08 dalek tablets: remove depreciated \b and \B and tidy up relatives
22:08 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/0b4206ee6c
22:32 masak 'night, #perl6
22:32 colomon o\
22:34 lichtkind masak: o/
22:47 havenn joined #perl6
22:47 [Coke] moritz: you don't need to have lichtkind change his entire dev setup. all he needs is a global .gitignore
22:47 lichtkind [Coke]: yes as i have it in my other projects :)
22:48 [Coke] lichtkind: you can have a .gitignore that is global, not just per project.
22:48 lichtkind i read this page but could anyone explain me please what this $?NF is for ?
22:49 japhb_ joined #perl6
22:49 lichtkind [Coke]: you mean a .gitignore on ~
22:49 [Coke] lichtkind: aye.
22:49 [Coke] lichtkind: $?NF: is this not sufficient? "coke@feather:~/sandbox/specs$ ack -Q '$?NF'
22:49 [Coke] "
22:50 japhb_ Who owns (or at least knows how to set up) dalek?  I'm considering setting it up at $day_job ....
22:50 [Coke] (grepping through roast?)
22:50 lichtkind [Coke]: i just dunno what it does
22:50 lichtkind [Coke]: done
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23:03 diakopter japhb_: dalek itself just tails a file and outputs text from it. another service sorear wrote listens for post-commit hook posts from github
23:05 japhb_ diakopter, OK, fair enough.  Where do I find all the pieces, so I can try to put them together?  :-)
23:06 diakopter hrm
23:06 pmichaud the last commit to the 2012.04.1 release notes looks funny to me
23:06 diakopter japhb_: well, you won't be able to put them together, unless you're able to add additional post-commit hooks to all those projects on github
23:08 japhb_ diakopter, I'm actually wanting dalek (or a dalek-like bot) to run against our $day_job repos (a gitolite-managed collection of git repos)
23:08 diakopter japhb_: oh. probably best to roll your own. there's enough cruft and specialization in dalek that it wouldn't help you much I think
23:08 japhb_ We were discussing the problem of keeping people aware of changes made in the (dozens) of repos we have, and I went "Wait, I know this one!"
23:09 japhb_ diakopter, awww.
23:10 diakopter japhb_: you'll need a web service that listens for the hook posts from github, then does whatever you want with them.  emails them, builds an rss feed, posts to irc
23:10 japhb_ s/github/gitolite/?
23:10 diakopter oh; I don't know what gitolite is
23:10 pmichaud phenny: tell moritz in commit a83a4b the resulting text reads "The Rakudo developers would like to add the organizers from Oslo.pm".  That doesn't read quite right to me -- what are we wanting to add them to?  ;-)
23:10 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
23:11 diakopter japhb_: I don't know if gitolite would support pushing those notifications like github does
23:12 japhb_ diakopter, It's a git server wrapper that manages ssh keys, creating new repos, setting (and enforcing) ACLs on repos and branches, etc.  Works well at the "small enough to understand, just big enough to keep a set of work repos sanely manageable" level.
23:13 japhb_ It does support post-commit hooks ... I'll see what I can find, thanks diakopter.
23:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 7334a53 | pmichaud++ | docs/ChangeLog:
23:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Typo fix; replace "infix cmp" with "&infix:<cmp>".
23:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7334a53a61
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23:31 [Coke] lichtkind: from those docs: $?NF is unicode normalisation form. Str.codes and .bytes each have an $nf argument that defaults to it.
23:31 [Coke] (and .encode)
23:32 [Coke] (and Containers.decode)
23:33 [Coke] I don't see the valid values documented anywhere, but http://unicode.org/faq/normalization.html makes me think that "NFC", "NFKC", "NFD", and "NFKD" are valid examples.
23:34 [Coke] r: say $?NF
23:34 p6eval rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $?NF is not declared␤at /tmp/v_Cg_jpnby:1␤»
23:40 [Coke] p6: say $?NF
23:40 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Undeclared variable: ("$?NF",MkPad (padToList [("$_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Scalar"), pe_proto = <Scalar:0xf6ee4a61>, pe_flags = MkEntryFlags {ef_isContext = True}, pe_store = <ref:0xf6ee6325>}),("@_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Array"), pe_proto = <Array:0xf6e…
23:40 p6eval ..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
23:40 p6eval ..rakudo a83a4b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $?NF is not declared␤at /tmp/btLTYpgYZ6:1␤»
23:53 dalek tablets: 4fd758a | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/tablet-2-basic-syntax.txt:
23:53 dalek tablets: add documenting comments and linking it
23:53 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/4fd758ab4f
23:53 dalek tablets: 08feb85 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (2 files):
23:53 dalek tablets: links to autogenerated toc headings are lowercase
23:53 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/08feb85475
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