Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-04-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 havenn joined #perl6
00:25 diakopter oh shark
00:26 sorear what?
00:26 diakopter hee; see the backscroll a few lines
00:26 sorear ah
00:27 dalek tablets: 2240d04 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (2 files):
00:27 dalek tablets: backlink metachars and test ops
00:27 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/2240d0452f
00:27 sorear moin, diakopter
00:29 diakopter "you have a face good for irc"
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00:51 sorear diakopter: huh?
00:51 diakopter nm
00:51 sorear did someone say that?
00:56 diakopter ha; no
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02:07 dalek tablets: a7502b7 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
02:07 dalek tablets: complete metachar table and add 2 missind metachars into index
02:07 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/a7502b7963
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04:48 [Coke] hai is also japanese for yes.
04:58 * [Coke] sees a ticket thread in gmail for p5 with Jesse (Luehrs) and James (Keenan). anyone know what popped into my head?
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06:22 sisar how can I do an advanced search of bug reports on RT ?
06:27 jlaire hai is also finnish for shark
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06:38 sisar r: say -8 div 3;
06:38 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-2␤»
06:38 sisar ^ known rakudobug ?
06:38 sisar (expected "-3")
06:45 jlaire r: say (-8) div 3
06:45 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-2␤»
06:47 tadzik oh shark, #perl6
06:47 phenny tadzik: 28 Apr 23:15Z <uvtc> tell tadzik http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-28#i_5512561
06:50 sorear tadzik!
06:51 tadzik sorear!
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06:55 tadzik gfldex++ # nice blog post(s)
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08:24 moritz \o
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09:35 arnsholt moritz: I've killed one of the valgrind warnings now
09:35 arnsholt Still one to go, but probably same kind of issue I think
09:39 arnsholt And as a nice side-effect, the patch refactored the write-barrier functions to the better IMO
09:39 arnsholt 57 insertions and 46 deletions, so not much more code was needed in the end either
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09:48 moritz arnsholt: which repo? nqp?
09:49 arnsholt Haven't pushed yet
09:49 moritz ok
09:49 arnsholt But the actual bug isn't dead yet, even if the valgrind complaints are :/
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09:55 arnsholt And valgrind doesn't give me any more leads to work on. Still behaves differently in valgrind though
09:59 moritz if you push it, I can try some different test files
10:00 arnsholt Yeah, I think I'll push it. Just gonna fix CStruct as well
10:00 arnsholt But looking at the the sqlite DBD, I think this problem with strings is something different
10:01 arnsholt The DBD's fetchrow_array calls sqlite3_column_text, and there're no arrays involved tehre
10:01 arnsholt So I think the problem is elsewhere
10:02 moritz phenny: ask jnthn to please add http://feather3.perl6.nl:5000/dalek?t=freenode,perl6 as a post-commit hook URL in zavolaj
10:02 phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
10:03 moritz arnsholt: fwiw I've now moved on to https://github.com/perl6/DBIish (but the native calling stuff is the same as in MiniDBI)
10:04 arnsholt Okies
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10:04 dalek nqp/dyncall-wb: 2fb45b9 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops:
10:04 dalek nqp/dyncall-wb: Handle non-concrete objects properly in write barriers.
10:04 dalek nqp/dyncall-wb: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2fb45b97ab
10:04 dalek nqp/dyncall-wb: bcf4b25 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/6model/reprs/CArray.c:
10:04 dalek nqp/dyncall-wb: [CArray] Handle non-concrete objects correctly in bond_pos_boxed.
10:04 dalek nqp/dyncall-wb: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bcf4b25328
10:04 arnsholt That should fixes the write-barrier weirdness
10:05 moritz and I guess s/bond/bind/ :-)
10:05 arnsholt But this other problem, along with your malformed utf issue seems to suggest something's a bit off in string handling
10:05 arnsholt Durr, yeah
10:05 arnsholt Too late to rewrite history now
10:06 moritz well, you can alwys win. History is written by the winners :-)
10:09 dalek panda: e106529 | tadzik++ | TODO:
10:09 dalek panda: Add TODO
10:09 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/e106529b70
10:09 dalek panda: dccd200 | tadzik++ | bin/ufobuilder:
10:09 dalek panda: Remove ufobuilder
10:09 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/dccd2006ee
10:09 dalek panda: e815355 | tadzik++ | bin/masstest:
10:09 dalek panda: [masstest] Use a new template, improve this and that
10:09 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/e815355173
10:10 tadzik oh, works
10:10 tadzik moritz++ # commit url
10:10 tadzik it was still linking to appflux.something
10:11 moritz it's all in misc/dalek-push.txt in the mu repo
10:14 moritz arnsholt: I still get "invalid read of size 1" in the DBIish sqlite tests
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10:16 jnthn Good...hmm...afternoon, it seems.
10:16 phenny jnthn: 10:02Z <moritz> ask jnthn to please add http://feather3.perl6.nl:5000/dalek?t=freenode,perl6 as a post-commit hook URL in zavolaj
10:17 jnthn moritz: Should I remove http://host04.appflux.net:5000/dalek?t=freenode,perl6 ?
10:17 moritz jnthn: yes, that's outdated
10:18 jnthn done and done.
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10:19 dalek DBIish: caf7ba9 | moritz++ | t/99-common.pl6:
10:19 dalek DBIish: update introspection for tests
10:19 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/caf7ba9e65
10:19 moritz jnthn++
10:19 jnthn arnsholt: Note that STRING *s are GC-able and need the writing object to get the write-barrier treatment. Dunno if that helps.
10:21 dalek DBIish: 6ee56c4 | moritz++ | lib/DBDish/SQLite.pm6:
10:21 dalek DBIish: [SQLite] fix typo
10:21 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/6ee56c497e
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10:34 arnsholt moritz: Yeah, I get that one too. But the stack trace is so garbled I'm not sure what's going on
10:34 arnsholt jnthn: No idea, TBH
10:35 arnsholt But the function that has varying behaviour depending on valgrind or not is (OpaquePointer, int) -> Str
10:36 masak oh shark, #perl6
10:36 phenny masak: 28 Apr 23:03Z <uvtc> tell masak Thanks for the link to the slides to your November talk.
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10:38 moritz lolsharkmasak!
10:44 dalek DBIish: 7632716 | moritz++ | t/99-common.pl6:
10:44 dalek DBIish: [t] be more careful about finishing statement handles
10:44 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/7632716e25
10:44 dalek DBIish: 1d4930b | moritz++ | t/99-common.pl6:
10:44 dalek DBIish: [t] avoid trailing zeros in numbers for now
10:44 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/1d4930b863
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10:49 Jdoneright my $actio = {say 'hi'};         #what can this mean in Perl 6?
10:50 moritz r: my $action = { say 'hi' }; say $action.WHAT
10:50 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
10:51 moritz r: my $action = { say 'hi' }; $action()
10:51 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«hi␤»
10:51 moritz Jdoneright: does that answer your question?
10:52 Jdoneright ^__^'' yes!
10:52 Woodi so 'sub' seems little deprecated with that ?
10:53 jnthn Woodi: Note that a block is transparent to return.
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10:56 moritz blocks are meant for small pieces of cdoe, routines for larger organizational units
10:56 tadzik my &foo = { say "hai" }; say "oh"; foo()
10:56 tadzik r: my &foo = { say "hai" }; say "oh"; foo()
10:56 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«oh␤hai␤»
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11:00 moritz tadzik: did you mean my &foo = { say 'shark' }; ?
11:02 masak :P
11:02 * masak .oO( I preferred pandas and butterflies. with this new shark meme, is #perl6 finally losing its innocense? ) :P
11:03 tadzik :P
11:03 masak Jdoneright: welcome back! haven't seen you in a year or so.
11:06 Jdoneright thanks! did'nt mean to get remembered though ))
11:07 Jdoneright Just some J evangelism
11:07 masak your nick *is* some J evangelism :P
11:08 masak anyway, I like return customers. let me know how we can help either corrupt you with more Perl 6, or corrupt Perl 6 with more J. ;)
11:08 Jdoneright =^__^=
11:10 dalek DBIish: c4a9e93 | moritz++ | lib/DBDish/SQLite.pm6:
11:10 dalek DBIish: [SQLite] finish statement handle in .do
11:10 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/c4a9e93e68
11:10 dalek DBIish: 3100834 | moritz++ | t/20-CSV-common.t.not.ready:
11:10 dalek DBIish: remove outdated test file
11:10 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/31008343cf
11:10 dalek DBIish: e0ca68b | moritz++ | t/99-common.pl6:
11:10 dalek DBIish: [t] start to compare numbers numerically
11:10 dalek DBIish: review: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/commit/e0ca68b428
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11:35 gfldex is there a skeleton for perl6 modules somewhere on the intarwebs?
11:37 masak 'module MyModule;' <-- presto, skeleton
11:38 gfldex i was more thinking about a directory structre with all the files you need
11:38 jnthn Hmm...I thought there was a good blog post on that somewhere...
11:38 jnthn yes
11:38 jnthn http://wiki.perl6.org/Create%20and%20Distribute%20Modules
11:38 jnthn Linked from modules.perl6.org \o/
11:39 * gfldex cleans his glasses
11:40 jnthn Wasn't saying "you shoulda looked", just happy I came accross it in the first place I thought to look :)
11:40 geekosaur joined #perl6
11:40 gfldex i don't got you like that
11:40 gfldex i was looking at modules.perl6.org
11:41 gfldex but could not see :o
11:41 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
11:41 araujo hello
11:41 araujo :)
11:42 jnthn o/ araujo
11:43 araujo hello jnthn , how that goes?
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11:43 grondilu p6: proto foo { {*} };
11:43 p6eval pugs:  ( no output )
11:43 p6eval ..rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤{*} may only appear in proto at line 1, near " };"␤»
11:43 p6eval ..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  &foo is declared but not used at /tmp/eIUTsRdytW line 1:â�¤------> [32mproto foo [33mâ��[31m{ {*} };[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
11:44 jnthn araujo: Pretty good today. :)
11:44 jnthn p6: proto foo { * }
11:44 p6eval pugs, rakudo 2a962e:  ( no output )
11:44 p6eval ..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  &foo is declared but not used at /tmp/NiI0_i10xu line 1:â�¤------> [32mproto foo [33mâ��[31m{ * }[0mâ�¤â�¤Â»
11:44 grondilu r: proto foo { {*}; 42 };
11:44 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤{*} may only appear in proto at line 1, near "; 42 };"␤»
11:44 jnthn Hmm.
11:44 jnthn That one should prolly work.
11:44 jnthn Guess just a NYI.
11:45 arnsholt jnthn: I think the dyncall stuff reuses some freed memory or something
11:45 jnthn arnsholt: "the dyncall stuff"? :)
11:45 jnthn arnsholt: As in, libdyncall?
11:45 arnsholt Er no, sorry. The nqp_dyncall.ops stuff
11:45 jnthn Ah.
11:46 jnthn Yeah, often ends up being buffer overruns. Or at least, a couple I found were that.
11:47 jnthn arnsholt: What are the symptoms of the current issue?
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11:47 arnsholt It's moritz++ who uncovered it
11:48 arnsholt Some data is inserted into sqlite, and getting it back works when run under valgrind, but not without it
11:48 arnsholt Although, what if it's the inserting that doesn't work...
11:48 * arnsholt goes to check that
11:49 arnsholt Indeed. Looks like it's the inserting that fails
11:52 jnthn Does Valgrind not complain?
11:52 jnthn e.g. it both works under valgrind and and doesn't get complained about?
11:53 moritz there are "Invalid read of size 1" messages, with mostly useless backtraces
11:54 jnthn Can I see one of them? :)
11:55 arnsholt Sec
11:55 arnsholt https://gist.github.com/2549841
11:55 jnthn My suspicion though is that it "works" because somewhere we're reading past the end of a buffer.
11:55 jnthn And the value that happens to be there when it's read under valgrind is such that it doesn't cause a crash.
11:55 arnsholt There's a bajillion things from Parrot's GC stuff, but that's the salient one
11:56 moritz memory debuggers and virtual machines often don't mix too well
11:56 arnsholt moritz: I'm assuming the -1 sent in to sqlite3_bind_text means "the string is NULL terminated"?
11:56 moritz arnsholt: indeed, when I manually insert stuff into sqlite, and then read it back via my rakudo-based script, it works fine
11:56 moritz arnsholt: correct
11:57 jnthn Hm, so it's something that we're passing off to sqlite that in turn causes it to do bad things.
11:58 arnsholt Yeah. Parrot_str_to_encoded_cstring makes NULL-terminated strings, right?
11:58 jnthn Which encoding?
11:58 jnthn utf8?
11:58 jnthn Should do, though.
11:58 moritz sqlite3 expects UTF-8
11:59 jnthn k
11:59 jnthn But it is crashing in sqlite3_step...
11:59 arnsholt The argument in the Perl code is a plain Str, so that should give UTF-8, no?
12:00 jnthn arnsholt: Well, the call to encode it to a UTF8 C string certainly should work out.
12:00 jnthn Is sqlite3_step about reading?
12:00 jnthn That is, the insert took place and the crash is when trying to read it back?
12:00 moritz it's about executing the statement and/or advancing to the next row
12:00 jnthn ah, so it crashes when executing the insert?
12:01 arnsholt It doesn't crash. It just inserts bad data
12:01 arnsholt Or no data, rather
12:01 moritz afaict it dies with "Malformed UTF-8 string" while reading back the result
12:02 jnthn Where is the data passed?
12:02 moritz on the p6 level, it's
12:02 moritz my $sth = $dbh.prepare('INSERT INTO t (y, z) VALUES (?, ?)');
12:02 moritz $sth.execute($a, $b) # in a loop
12:03 jnthn No, at sqlite level
12:03 jnthn sqlite3_step doesn't take the query
12:03 moritz at the C level, that runs sqlite3_prepare_v2
12:03 jnthn OK, is there any chance that we're seeing:
12:03 moritz followed by sqlite3_bind
12:03 jnthn 1) sqlite3_prepare_v2 is called, passing in the query as a string
12:03 moritz for each param
12:04 jnthn 2) That string we passed in is freed
12:04 jnthn 3) We call the follow-up functions, and they're operating on freed memory
12:04 jnthn ?
12:04 moritz that sounds possible
12:04 jnthn Whereas sqlite expects that string to last for the whole sequence, and doesn't copy it?
12:05 moritz what we do on the p6 level is    for @params.kv -> $k, $v { sqlite3_bind($handle, $k, $v + 1) }
12:05 arnsholt Yes, that's it!
12:05 jnthn arnsholt: In NativeCall.pm6, find the line:
12:05 jnthn nqp::bindkey($result, 'free_str', nqp::unbox_i(1));
12:05 jnthn And change that 1 to a 0.
12:06 arnsholt Or, it sounds very plausible, at least
12:06 jnthn See if that helps.
12:06 moritz so shouldn't the string inside $v be still insdie @params?
12:06 moritz *inside
12:06 moritz or is there a new string being created somewhere?
12:06 jnthn New
12:07 jnthn Parrot_str_to_encoded_cstring makes a fresh string.
12:07 jnthn With the correct encoding.
12:07 moritz oh.
12:08 arnsholt Yup. Not freeing the string fixes it
12:08 jnthn arnsholt: For clarification of what's going on inside, see handling of "char **free_strs = NULL;" in op nqp_native_call.
12:08 arnsholt Yeah, I've skimmed that bit of code. Just didn't think hard enough about it to make the connection
12:09 jnthn I made it in the nqp op so it's configurable whether it frees it or expects the library to at some point.
12:09 jnthn But didn't do a trait to expose that.
12:09 jnthn But it probably can be just like the "which encoding to use" trait.
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12:10 arnsholt Yeah, that makes sense
12:10 jnthn But...I worry a bit still
12:10 jnthn When will that string be freed?
12:10 moritz so, $x is managed_by_caller ?
12:10 jnthn moritz: For what you want, "is managed_by_callee" is more accurate.
12:11 jnthn moritz: The default is to free a marshalled string right after the call.
12:11 arnsholt is cmanaged?
12:11 jnthn Which for a bunch of cases is right.
12:11 jnthn But not this one.
12:11 moritz jnthn: ah, right
12:11 jnthn Will sqlite actually free it at some point?
12:11 moritz I don't think so
12:11 jnthn Ugh.
12:11 jnthn Then we'll fix the problem, but leak memory.
12:12 moritz oh, wait
12:12 moritz http://sqlite.org/c3ref/bind_blob.html says "If the fifth argument is the special value SQLITE_STATIC, then SQLite assumes that the information is in static, unmanaged space and does not need to be freed."
12:12 moritz one can read that as "usually we do free the memory for you", but I'm not quite sure that's the case
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12:13 jnthn Hmm...if it's freeing *and* we're freeing then it's gonna be a double free.
12:15 moritz maybe http://sqlite.org/c3ref/clear_bindings.html does?
12:16 jnthn Not convinced...it'd probably say something about freeing.
12:20 arnsholt I think SQLITE_STATIC is just a magic value used to indicate noop
12:21 arnsholt Memory is not freed, and if you want it to be freed, you need to pass a destructor callback
12:25 arnsholt In our case, that means we just want to pass a pointer to free, but I'm not sure what the easiest way to do that is
12:30 * masak cheers on the efforts to get DBIish things to work on Rakudo
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12:38 moritz how about we introduce a Pool object
12:38 moritz and then we do   $param is managed-by($pool);
12:38 jnthn Hm.
12:38 moritz and once we know we don't need that memory anymore, we call $pool.free
12:39 arnsholt Hm, indeed
12:39 jnthn Or we have an explicit CStr that we just have to be sure we hold on to a reference to for long enough.
12:40 arnsholt Yeah, or that
12:40 jnthn So you CStr.new($the_perl6_str, $which-encoding)
12:40 jnthn And it marshalls it right away.
12:40 jnthn And frees the marshalling of it once that CStr gets GC'd.
12:40 jnthn So you just have to store it somewhere for the duration of your querying.
12:41 jnthn Feels rather lighter than introducing pools. :)
12:41 arnsholt Yeah, I think that's a good way
12:43 arnsholt So then we'll need a new REPR, and refactor the current code dealing with strings, no?
12:44 jnthn arnsholt: Yeah, I just wonder how to make it non-ugly from a Perl 6 point of view.
12:45 jnthn As in, I don't want to make the common case any more complicated than it is today.
12:46 jnthn I wonder if we can do it such that we actually have a role mixed into a normal Str, which has an attribute that is something with the CStr REPR.
12:46 arnsholt Yeah, that's the thing. Perhaps Zavolaj could marshal Strs into CStrs on the fly?
12:46 jnthn Well, no, that misses solving the problem :)
12:46 jnthn We need to sometimes let the caller explicitly say "I want to keep this CStr around"
12:46 jnthn e.g. they need to control things a bit more
12:47 arnsholt Well, yeah. But in that case you could crete the CStr yourself
12:47 jnthn Yeah...
12:47 arnsholt s/crete/create
12:47 jnthn I'm more thinking about the signature.
12:47 jnthn sub foo(Str $s) is native(...) { * }
12:47 jnthn vs
12:47 arnsholt Good point. Forgot about that
12:47 jnthn sub foo(CStr $s) is native(...) { * }
12:47 jnthn Feels icky.
12:48 arnsholt Yeah. They're the same function, so there shouldn't be more than one entry point
12:48 jnthn Well, also teaching people when to write which one.
12:48 jnthn I think I'd prefer...
12:48 arnsholt Not to mention that, yeah
12:48 jnthn You declare it with Str always.
12:48 jnthn We provide a function like:
12:49 arnsholt Having the parameter always be Str feels best, yeah
12:49 jnthn my $resource-handle = get-string-handle($some_str);
12:49 jnthn no, not that...
12:49 jnthn manually-manage-str($some_str);
12:50 jnthn It mixes a role into Str
12:50 jnthn Which in turn has an attribute of some type with CStr REPR.
12:50 jnthn This REPR just points off to the marshalled C string.
12:51 jnthn And we always use that same marshalling in every single call done with this string.
12:51 arnsholt Yeah, that sounds good. Are Strs constant?
12:51 jnthn And it doesn't get cleared up until $some_str is freed
12:51 jnthn Yes, Str is immutable.
12:51 arnsholt Excellent
12:51 jnthn Which is important for this to actually work. :)
12:51 arnsholt Kinda, yeah =)
12:52 jnthn Then we just have to document when to use manually-manage-str (and I'm open to better names)
12:52 arnsholt Yet another example that immutable strings are important =)
12:52 jnthn Yeah.
12:52 arnsholt So far my best suggestion for a name is manually-manage
12:53 jnthn Hm
12:53 jnthn That does have the advantage that if we find we need a similar mechanism in the future, we just make it a multi.
12:53 arnsholt Yup
12:53 jnthn e.g. for now we just have a candidate that is like multi manually-manage(Str $s) { ... }
12:53 jnthn May as well multi it from the start
12:53 jnthn +1
12:54 arnsholt Troo. And we'll need to specify the encoding as well
12:54 jnthn Could pass as a named.
12:54 jnthn Or
12:54 arnsholt Yeah, that's what I was thinking
12:54 jnthn Well, no, that's orthogonal to management.
12:55 jnthn We already *have* a way to specify encoding.
12:55 arnsholt True. If it hasn't been specified we can just default to UTF-8
12:55 jnthn And it's not like manually-manage has to actually marshall immediately
12:56 arnsholt Good point. Defer all the work
12:56 jnthn All the work!
12:56 jnthn Yes, NativeCall.pm6:22
12:56 jnthn That says default is utf8 today if unspecified.
12:57 arnsholt Oh, we have .? right
12:57 arnsholt I'll have to steal that =)
13:01 brrt joined #perl6
13:02 dalek tablets: ae91215 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/report.pl:
13:02 dalek tablets: adding script for a internal status report, helps me to save much time but  reall i dide this soemtimes manually
13:02 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/ae9121561f
13:02 geekosaur joined #perl6
13:06 allbery_b joined #perl6
13:06 lichtkind joined #perl6
13:28 sergot joined #perl6
13:28 sergot hi o/
13:30 masak sergocie! \o/
13:31 masak O Rekin! Jak się dzisiaj czujesz? :P
13:33 tokuhirom joined #perl6
13:34 moritz so, what's the plan now?
13:34 moritz a function that mixes a role into a string
13:34 Chillance joined #perl6
13:34 moritz which makes it keep a reference to the marshalled string?
13:35 arnsholt Yeah, pretty much
13:36 arnsholt Right now I'm trying to figure out how to do it all =)
13:38 moritz my mental image is:
13:38 moritz a role ManagedCString { has $!marshalled }
13:38 moritz and when you marshall a string, and that string .^does(ManagedCString), it sets $!marshalled to the newly marshalled thing
13:39 moritz so that the GC doesn't get
13:39 jnthn Basically that, yeah.
13:39 jnthn Then you just have to keep the string around long enough.
13:39 jnthn So long as your program references it, the marshalled version will stay around.
13:47 gfldex jnthn: another note about RT112666, if I stick Role and trait into a module it stops working alltogether
13:49 sergot masak: Rekin? :) Dobrze się czuję. A Ty? :)
13:50 jnthn gfldex: I assume you added "is export" to the trait?
13:50 gfldex yes
13:50 jnthn ok
13:52 dalek roast: 5e75fe9 | ronaldxs++ | fudge:
13:52 dalek roast: The ~~ smart match requires Perl 5.10 and rakudo is supposed to be OK with Perl 5.8. Don't see why =~ isn't enough.
13:52 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5e75fe9c26
13:52 dalek roast: 2e5a21c | (It's secret to everybody)++ | fudge:
13:52 dalek roast: Merge pull request #19 from ronaldxs/patch-1
13:52 dalek roast:
13:52 dalek roast: The ~~ smart match requires Perl 5.10
13:52 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/2e5a21c61a
13:52 masak sergot: Tadzik zaczął mówić o rekinów. Zobacz zaległości.
13:54 gfldex jnthn: it on github for easy access https://github.com/gfldex/perl6-signal
13:58 kaare_ joined #perl6
13:59 sisar joined #perl6
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14:02 sisar moritz, http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-29#i_5513397 and the following 3-4 lines
14:03 moritz sisar: what's the bug?
14:03 moritz -8 = -2 + (-2) * 3
14:03 sisar expected is -3 not -2
14:03 sisar n: -8 div 3;
14:03 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5:  ( no output )
14:04 sisar say -8 div 3 ;
14:04 sisar arrgh
14:04 moritz n: say -8 div 3
14:04 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«-3␤»
14:04 sisar n: say -8 div 3 ;
14:04 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«-3␤»
14:04 moritz oh, I'm confusing div and mod
14:04 moritz p6: say (-8) div 3
14:04 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "div"␤    expecting operator, ":" or ","␤    at /tmp/wMavy8_09r line 1, column 10␤»
14:04 p6eval ..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«-3␤»
14:04 p6eval ..rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-2␤»
14:04 masak huh!
14:05 masak I think Rakudo is right here.
14:05 masak it's truncate-towards-0, not round-down semantics.
14:05 masak p6: say 8 div 3
14:05 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "div"␤    expecting operator, ":" or ","␤    at /tmp/tDrs2OIBKO line 1, column 7␤»
14:05 p6eval ..rakudo 2a962e, niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:05 * masak submits nieczabug
14:05 sisar masak: no. the spec says "In general, div should give the same result as:   $x div $y == floor($x/$y) "
14:06 sisar masak, wait
14:06 masak oh!
14:06 sisar verdict ?
14:06 * masak unsubmits the nieczabug and submits rakudobug
14:06 sisar masak++
14:06 moritz r: say ((-8 * 2**65) div (3 * 2**65) / 2 ** 65
14:06 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 2␤»
14:06 moritz r: say ((-8 * 2**65) div (3 * 2**65)) / 2 ** 65
14:06 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-5.42101086242752e-20␤»
14:07 sisar masak, how do i an advaced search on RT ?
14:08 moritz sisar: I think the first step is to log in
14:08 arnsholt jnthn: https://gist.github.com/2550626#file_gistfile1.txt # What I'm basing my string stuff around. Look ok so far?
14:08 sisar moritz, next ?
14:09 moritz sisar: then we you do a simple search, you can click on 'Advanced'
14:09 cognominal___ joined #perl6
14:09 moritz sisar: and then you need magic :/
14:09 arnsholt moritz: Feel free to have a look at that gist as well =)
14:09 * sisar tries
14:09 masak oh come on, it's not that hard.
14:09 moritz you can click on the 'edit search' link
14:10 masak here's my general method for finding things in RT.
14:10 arnsholt I'm not too happy with the name CStrRole, so suggestions welcome
14:10 jnthn arnsholt: looking
14:10 moritz arnsholt: new CStr($x); looks suspicious
14:10 masak search for a keyword. enter the 'edit search' page. ignore the amazing collection of GUI controls.
14:10 masak select queue: perl6. click 'add and search'.
14:11 moritz std: role CStr { }; new CStr(my $x)
14:11 jnthn This ain't C++ :P
14:11 p6eval std fab64fc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at /tmp/wqslNkPF2C line 1:�------> [32mrole CStr { }; new CStr[33m�[31m(my $x)[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 40m�»
14:11 masak sort things according to reverse temporal order by clicking the appropriate table heading twice.
14:11 jnthn Maybe name it ManuallyManagedNativeStr or something
14:11 jnthn PUtting "Role" in the name of the role is kinda weird.
14:11 arnsholt Oh, I derped. CStr.new of course
14:11 jnthn It doesn't matter if the name is a bit long.
14:11 jnthn As people will never type it by hand anyway.
14:12 moritz and CStr is repr($something_custom) ?
14:12 arnsholt Yeah, class CStr is repr('CStr')
14:13 tadzik masak: you're lovely with your Polish :)
14:14 moritz p6: my $x = 2**65; say (-8 * $x div 3 * $x) div $x
14:14 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«-98382635059784275286␤»
14:14 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "div"␤    expecting operator or ")"␤    at /tmp/NJqoGMWonm line 1, column 29␤»
14:14 p6eval ..rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-98382635059784275285␤»
14:14 moritz erm.
14:14 moritz is that correct?
14:14 masak tadzik: today I might've been completely off. it looked good, though.
14:14 tadzik I assume you meant "backlog" as "zaległości"?
14:14 masak yeah... sounds like I was off, then.
14:15 masak phenny: "zaległości"?
14:15 phenny masak: "up" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
14:15 tadzik hmm
14:15 masak heh.
14:15 arnsholt jnthn: Having a horrible long name will encourage people to use manually-managed as well, in case that ends up doing more magic =)
14:15 tadzik it's like something that was due last week, but you still didn't do it
14:15 tadzik like my SE assignment
14:15 tadzik if you have things like this, then you have "zaległości"
14:15 masak ah, like the "backlog" of Scrum.
14:16 masak yeah. in retrospect, it was presumptious of me to think that GT would find the right word for "backlog".
14:16 masak phenny: en pl "chat log"?
14:16 phenny masak: "czat zalogować" (en to pl, translate.google.com)
14:16 masak hah. "czat".
14:16 tadzik I would expect it to find one, but OTOH, I can't find one myself
14:17 jferrero joined #perl6
14:17 tadzik czat is not really a Polish word
14:17 tadzik phenny: "zapis rozmowy"?
14:17 phenny tadzik: "a conversation" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
14:17 masak it's a sound loan.
14:17 tadzik aye
14:17 tadzik also, we don't really have a word for a backlog
14:17 masak neither does Swedish. I'd just say "logg", I believe.
14:17 tadzik there's a meaning of "protokół" which means a log of something
14:18 tadzik also, fsergot clearly has zaległości with #perl6 memes
14:18 tadzik if you know what I mean, and I think you do now :)
14:18 masak clearly. :)
14:18 tadzik as in, he's not up to date with them
14:18 masak nodnod
14:19 masak he has "things do to".
14:19 masak phenny: eo en "farendaĵoj"?
14:19 phenny masak: "farendaĵoj" (eo to en, translate.google.com)
14:19 masak dåligt.
14:20 masak eo far + end + aĵ + oj = do + must + thing + (pl) = "things to do"
14:22 moritz whiteknight: fwiw your patch isn't complete enough
14:23 moritz whiteknight: PERL6LIB=lib ./perl6 --ll-exception t/spec/integration/error-reporting.rakudo |&less
14:23 moritz whiteknight: seems the ModuleLoader must be patched too
14:25 geekosaur joined #perl6
14:29 isBEKaml joined #perl6
14:29 isBEKaml Sharkey, #perl6!
14:30 masak :D
14:30 moritz isn't there a Unicode character for shark?
14:30 masak probably nowadays.
14:30 isBEKaml .u shark
14:30 phenny isBEKaml: Sorry, no results for 'shark'.
14:30 UncleFester6 joined #perl6
14:30 masak r: say "Ultimate {$_}itude" given "shark"
14:31 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«Ultimate sharkitude␤»
14:31 gfldex http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/9c76/index.htm
14:31 moritz but phenny knows only the first 0xFFFF chars
14:31 moritz oh 鱶
14:32 isBEKaml .u 'a shark'
14:32 phenny isBEKaml: U+0027 U+0061 U+0020 U+0073 U+0068 U+0061 U+0072 U+006B U+0027 U+0020
14:32 isBEKaml huh... :D
14:32 moritz .u 鱶
14:32 phenny U+9C76 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9C76 (鱶)
14:33 UncleFester6 perl6: my $x = qqx[ nonesuch ]; print "before\nduring: $x\nafter\n";
14:33 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&qqx"␤    at /tmp/FDrsqwED6I line 1, column 4-24␤»
14:33 p6eval ..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.InvalidOperationException: File name has not been set␤  at System.Diagnostics.Process.Start_common (System.Diagnostics.ProcessStartInfo startInfo, System.Diagnostics.Process process) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤  at Syste…
14:33 p6eval ..rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«qx, qqx is disallowed in safe mode␤  in sub restricted at src/SAFE.setting:2␤  in sub QX at src/SAFE.setting:9␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Bu9HPkYYyw:1␤␤»
14:34 UncleFester6 When I try that qqx command on my system it captures STDERR.  Is it supposed to?
14:34 moritz UncleFester6: it doesn't on my machine
14:34 moritz erm, wait
14:35 moritz my test was flawed
14:35 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
14:35 moritz it does
14:35 moritz i guess it shouldn't
14:35 moritz even though that behavior can be useful at time :-)
14:35 moritz *at times
14:36 UncleFester6 OK - thanks - I'll file the bug.  I have been looking at Rakudo Star.
14:36 masak UncleFester6++
14:36 moritz UncleFester6++
14:37 isBEKaml UncleFester6: do it fast. before masakbot does! :)
14:37 UncleFester6 many of the packaged module tests fail for me on 32 bit Ubuntu.  Is there a make spectest for modules yet or planned?
14:37 arnsholt Right. Managed to compile an NQP with my repr in it
14:38 moritz UncleFester6: I'm not aware of specific plans
14:38 moritz UncleFester6: though tadzik is working on a script which smoke-tests modules independently of rakudo star
14:39 UncleFester6 I'll take it up with tadzik maybe some time - thx.
14:40 UncleFester6 tadzik++
14:40 sisar r: say sin(pi);
14:40 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-3.52688866664137e-10␤»
14:40 sisar r: say sin(pi/2);
14:40 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:41 arnsholt But the Rakudo compile exploded. Fun
14:43 masak r: sub sic($x) { sin($x) + i * cos($x) }; say $_.&sic for 0, pi/8 ... 2 * pi
14:43 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«0+1i␤0.38268343240582+0.923879532494416i␤0.707106781248895+0.7071067811242i␤0.9238795325619+0.382683432242899i␤1-1.76344433332068e-10i␤0.923879532426932-0.382683432568741i␤0.707106780999506-0.707106781373589i␤0.382683432079978-0.923879532629384i␤-3.52688866664137e-…
14:44 sisar joined #perl6
14:45 buubot_backup joined #perl6
14:45 sisar masak, sin(pi) not being zero, known bug ? #again, can't find on RT :/
14:46 moritz sisar: not bug, just normal floating point inaccuracies
14:46 sisar even, niecza gets it wrong
14:46 sisar n: say sin(pi);
14:46 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«1.2246063538223773E-16␤»
14:46 moritz r: use Test; is_approx sin(pi), 0, 'sin(pi) is cloase to 0'
14:46 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«ok 1 - sin(pi) is cloase to 0␤»
14:46 moritz sisar: we don't do symbolic calculations, I'm afraid
14:46 sisar moritz: hmm, but then how does sin(pi/2) is accurately 1 ?
14:47 moritz r: printf '%.15f', sin(pi/2)
14:47 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«1.000000000000000»
14:47 moritz r: say sin(pi/2) == 1
14:47 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«True␤»
14:47 moritz sisar: luck
14:47 sisar huh !
14:47 masak sisar: what moritz said.
14:47 dalek tablets: 076b928 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
14:47 dalek tablets: backlinks for regex modifier and quoting adverbs, updated entry words of A
14:47 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/076b9282c2
14:47 masak sisar: 1.2e-16 is "sufficiently zero".
14:47 moritz r: say sin(2 * pi)
14:47 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«7.05377733328273e-10␤»
14:48 masak sisar: if this surprises or disappoints you, I may send you some useful links.
14:48 arnsholt jnthn: Is there a simple way to get an NQP script to load the dyncall ops?
14:48 moritz r: say log(abs sin($n * pi)) for ^10
14:48 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $n is not declared␤at /tmp/JkVVfeWyx2:1␤»
14:48 moritz r: say log(abs sin($_ * pi)) for ^10
14:48 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-Inf␤-21.7654348452065␤-21.0722876646465␤-20.6668221368208␤-20.3791404840866␤-20.155997184603␤-19.9736749562609␤-19.8195245162722␤-19.6859933035267␤-19.5682104077762␤»
14:48 sisar had, sin(pi/2) been something like 0.999, i would have been happy with the output of sin(pi)
14:48 masak why?
14:49 masak sometimes you're lucky with floating-point roundings, sometimes you aren't.
14:49 moritz r: say log(abs sin($_ * pi)).Int for 1..10
14:49 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«-21␤-21␤-20␤-20␤-20␤-19␤-19␤-19␤-19␤-19␤»
14:49 sisar masak, yeah, the luck factor...
14:49 masak sisar: you shouldn't ever compare exactly two floating-point numbers anyway.
14:49 masak if you do, the floating point gods will smite you.
14:50 allbery_b joined #perl6
14:50 isBEKaml masak: goldberg?
14:50 isBEKaml :D
14:50 sisar masak, re good links, yes please
14:50 * masak gathers some
14:51 sisar masak++
14:52 masak isBEKaml: right, yes. I just didn't know that was his name.
14:52 masak sisar: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19422-01/819-3693/ncg_goldberg.html
14:52 sisar .oO( if masak had a penny for every ++ he gets ... )
14:52 moritz he might be able to buy a beer or two :-)
14:53 moritz karam masak
14:53 moritz karma masak
14:53 aloha masak has karma of 706.
14:53 sisar just a beer or two?
14:53 isBEKaml moritz: beer is expensive!
14:53 moritz in .se, yes
14:53 masak that's more like 10 beers over here.
14:53 masak oh wait.
14:53 masak pennies.
14:53 masak :/
14:53 sisar karma sisar
14:53 aloha sisar has karma of 6.
14:53 sisar :/
14:53 moritz sisar: you need write more patches :-)
14:54 * sisar did not get a ++ for the div bug
14:54 masak sisar++
14:54 sisar yay !
14:55 sisar my vacations start from 2nd, so maybe i will have more tuits
14:55 * sisar is a teenager, so has *many* distractions !
14:56 * moritz giggles
14:57 masak sounds kinda nice.
14:57 sisar i meant, oh-do-many interests
14:57 sisar *oh-so-many
14:57 masak give them our regards :P
14:57 moritz sisar: when you grow older, there will be many time consuming things that aren't distractions :-)
14:58 sisar moritz: we'll see :p
14:58 sergot joined #perl6
14:59 sisar on second look, maybe that "distraction' part got out wrong !
15:00 sergot ;]
15:00 moritz sisar: I know what you mean, I've been a teenager too :-)
15:00 * masak too
15:00 moritz but once you've got a dayjob, wife and child(ren), things look pretty different
15:00 dalek tablets: 5e6e147 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
15:00 dalek tablets: adding sort / did i really forget this?
15:00 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/5e6e147c84
15:01 moritz lichtkind: sort of :-)
15:02 lichtkind moritz: these jokes will one day you you all, especially masak :)
15:02 sisar so how much IEEE 754 -2008 conformation should I expect in P6 ?
15:02 masak lichtkind: :P
15:02 * masak .oO( what have I done now...? ) :P
15:02 moritz sisar: as much as makes sense
15:03 masak lichtkind: also, `sort &leg, @input` might be a useful intermediary step to showcase.
15:03 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
15:03 masak lichtkind: the first form you have is very p5-y, and the second form is very p6-y. but my suggested form is a bit of both.
15:03 sisar ok. so the 754 standard says that sqrt(-0) should be -0 not, +0 ...
15:03 moritz erm, sort &infix:<leg> ?
15:03 sisar r: say sqrt(-0);
15:03 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:03 masak erm. yes.
15:03 masak so &[leg] would also work.
15:04 lichtkind masak: thats an excellent idea
15:04 masak \o/
15:04 masak you see. I don't just pun and tease :P
15:04 * moritz is disappunted
15:05 * masak is disteased
15:06 masak sisar: also, http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/JAVAhurt.pdf
15:06 masak read those two, and you'll be fine.
15:07 masak sisar: whenever I give a course and it makes sense to say it, I tell people never to write a banking or accounting app with floating-point values for currency. I hope that this makes a little dent in the world.
15:08 sisar masak, thanks. looks really good. maybe reading the IEEE standard directly will make me insae-nish :p
15:09 brrt joined #perl6
15:09 masak I've never tried that.
15:09 masak I just used Java enough to have a feel for how it works.
15:09 sisar masak, "give a course"? You teach?
15:10 sisar masak, Java is fully 754 compliant ?
15:10 masak sisar: I teach. I think I gave about 10 courses in 2011.
15:11 masak sisar: I think Java floating-point numbers aim towards full IEEE 754 compatibility, yes.
15:12 masak sisar: I work for http://edument.se/ -- we develop software, learn cool things about software, and then teach them. :)
15:12 mucker joined #perl6
15:12 masak we're very Perl 6-friendly.
15:13 sisar masak, oh now i remember. I read your "menatl bug report system" on the companies blog. Really loved that
15:13 sisar *mental
15:13 masak thanks.
15:14 jaldhar joined #perl6
15:14 sisar i started to classify my mental bugreports into, amnesia, feature-needed, needs-confirmation, etc... :p
15:15 masak that sounds quite different to what I wrote about, but nevertheless interesting.
15:15 sisar masak, i was just extending the concept for fun :)
15:16 sisar as in, how cool would it be if had a bug report management for my brain !
15:16 masak you make a really good point.
15:16 masak I for one wouldn't mind better brain management to make me effective and stuff.
15:17 sisar exactly !
15:17 masak I hear there are focus-increasing drugs these days.
15:18 sisar i'm gonna try this out sometime, i'll set up a mental bug management system. Will really help with my amnesia !
15:18 * sisar tries to avoid any types of drugs
15:19 masak well, me too. I haven't tried any of that.
15:19 dalek tablets: b33d190 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
15:19 dalek tablets: polish sort entry; masak++
15:19 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/b33d190085
15:19 sisar .oO ( maybe i'll allow other people, like my family to file bugs too ! ;-) )
15:20 * sisar afk
15:20 * masak .oO( "you can't just file 'you're wrong!', you have to give steps to reproduce the mental bug! )
15:21 masak er, s/ \)/" )/
15:21 sisar hehe...
15:21 * sisar really afk
15:38 masak n: my $f1 = 1; my $f2 = 1; for ^20 { ($f1, $f2) = ($f2, $f1 + $f2); say $f2 / $f1 }
15:38 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«2␤1.5␤1.6666666666666667␤1.6␤1.625␤1.6153846153846154␤1.6190476190476191␤1.6176470588235294␤1.6181818181818182␤1.6179775280898876␤1.6180555555555556␤1.6180257510729614␤1.6180371352785146␤1.618032786885246␤1.6180344478216819␤1.6180338134001253␤1.61803405572…
15:39 tadzik UncleFester6: still around?
15:39 masak n: my $f1 = 1; my $f2 = 1; my $last_val = 0; for ^20 { ($f1, $f2) = ($f2, $f1 + $f2); last if $last_val == $f2 / $f1; $last_val = $f2 / $f1 }; say $last_val
15:39 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«1.618033985017358␤»
15:39 masak n: my $f1 = 1; my $f2 = 1; my $last_val = 0; loop { ($f1, $f2) = ($f2, $f1 + $f2); last if $last_val == $f2 / $f1; $last_val = $f2 / $f1 }; say $last_val
15:39 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«1.6180339887498949␤»
15:43 UncleFester6 Hi tadzik
15:43 tadzik hello
15:44 tadzik so, want to look at module smoketesting?
15:44 UncleFester6 yes
15:44 tadzik okay. The thing you can do right now is to clone the panda repository and run bin/masstest
15:44 uvtc joined #perl6
15:45 tadzik that should take some time (20 minutes on my machine), and produce an index.html which will look somewhat like this: http://tjs.azalayah.net/new.html
15:45 tadzik oh, I was to re-run it
15:45 UncleFester6 Thanks - will try to look at it in the next few days
15:45 tadzik that will be most appreciated
15:46 tadzik the plan I have for this thing is to produce some JSON data we can process easily, and possibly include on modules.perl6.org
15:47 uvtc Yow. With R* 2012.04,
15:47 uvtc $ perl6 --doc=HTML foo.pl
15:47 uvtc ===SORRY!===
15:47 uvtc Could not find Pod::To::HTML in any of: /home/john/.perl6/lib, /home/john/opt/rakudo-star-2012.04/install/lib/parrot/4.3.0/languages/perl6/lib, .
15:47 uvtc That didn't make it in to R*?
15:47 tadzik apparently
15:47 tadzik try panda install Pod::To::HTML
15:48 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:49 uvtc Yeah, I realize I can install it myself. Seems like it ought to come with R* though.
15:49 plobsing joined #perl6
15:51 uvtc tadzik, thanks.
15:51 tadzik certainly
15:51 * uvtc filed an R* issue for it
15:52 tadzik no need
15:52 dalek star: 545b928 | tadzik++ | / (2 files):
15:52 dalek star: Add Pod::To::HTML
15:52 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/545b928118
15:52 tadzik uvtc++
15:52 uvtc Now we're cookin' with gas!
15:52 uvtc :)
15:56 dalek tablets: cf4967b | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (2 files):
15:56 dalek tablets: preparing links of the topic of contexts to point to according planned glossary entries
15:56 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/cf4967be15
15:56 lichtkind uvtc: hai
15:57 * masak .oO( shark )
15:57 tadzik :)
15:57 uvtc lichtkind, shark and hello
15:58 uvtc (How do I ask the bot here to translate words from one human language to another?)
15:58 moritz phenny: de en "hai"?
15:58 phenny moritz: "shark" (de to en, translate.google.com)
15:58 tadzik shark thar!
15:59 lichtkind uvtc: any comments on recent developement?
15:59 allbery_b joined #perl6
16:00 uvtc Hi lichtkind, Sorry, I haven't been following recent Tablets development very closely. What's new?
16:00 uvtc moritz, thanks.
16:00 uvtc phenny: en de "hai"?
16:00 phenny uvtc: "hai" (en to de, translate.google.com)
16:01 uvtc phenny: en de "shark"?
16:01 phenny uvtc: "Hai" (en to de, translate.google.com)
16:02 masak phenny: en de "orca"?
16:02 phenny masak: "orca" (en to de, translate.google.com)
16:03 lichtkind uvtc: too much to say :)
16:03 masak phenny: en de "killer whale"?
16:03 phenny masak: "Killerwal" (en to de, translate.google.com)
16:03 masak fair enough.
16:04 uvtc lichtkind, Well, I see you're still using my low-contrast colorscheme, so at least masak is happy. :P
16:05 uvtc tadzik, when having panda install Pod::To::HTML, I get one warning:
16:05 uvtc ==> Building Pod::To::HTML
16:05 uvtc use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:670
16:06 masak uvtc: I read the github.com commits. github has a decent color scheme :P
16:07 tadzik uvtc: I don't know where does that come from :P
16:07 sisar uvtc, tadzik++ fixed it recently. Do you have a recent rakudo ?
16:07 whiteknight moritz: Okay, I'll go re-look at it all
16:07 uvtc sisar, R*
16:07 uvtc sisar, 2012.04
16:07 tadzik should be fine
16:07 tadzik http://tjs.azalayah.net/new.html new test results
16:07 tadzik colomon: here are your greens :)
16:08 sisar uvtc: oh. ok. Then i don't know :)
16:08 tadzik may be a Pod::To::HTML thing
16:08 uvtc sisar, thanks.
16:08 moritz tadzik: there's something wrong
16:09 moritz tadzik: URI is all green
16:09 tadzik shouldn't it?
16:09 moritz tadzik: but it says LWP::Simple fails on prerequs
16:09 tadzik oh
16:09 moritz Dependency resolution has failed: stage test failed for URI
16:09 tadzik wrong indeed
16:10 tadzik seems that URI tests are non-deterministic :/
16:10 masak &
16:10 tadzik they indeed suceeded while building URI, and then failed while building LWP::Simple
16:10 tadzik now I did two 'panda install URI' runs in a row, one failed, one passed
16:13 moritz tadzik: what's the test failure?
16:13 tadzik Non-zero wait status: 11
16:13 tadzik Parse errors: No plan found in TAP output
16:14 tadzik I'll run just this one
16:14 lichtkind uvtc: backlings are almost ready many new terms were much more complete, formating of index is consolidating
16:14 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
16:14 tadzik maybe a segfault :/
16:15 tyatpi joined #perl6
16:15 tadzik ok, nailed it. It sometimes, depending on a mood, dies with No object at index 73
16:16 tadzik depeding on a precompilation, actually. As if precompilation was non-deterministic
16:17 tadzik now I've had a fail -> rebuild -> fail -> rebuild -> pass cycle
16:18 rindolf joined #perl6
16:20 rindolf joined #perl6
16:22 uvtc tadzik, I notice that Pod::To::HTML renders I<this> as <strong>this</strong>, and B<this> as <mark>this</mark>. Curious: why did you choose those instead of I<this> --> <em> and B<this> --> <strong>?
16:23 tadzik uvtc: I didn't, ask flussence :)
16:24 tadzik he did most of Pod::To::HTML
16:26 rindolf Can I get help with Perlito5 here?
16:27 moritz rindolf: if you happen to meet fglock, maybe
16:27 rindolf moritz: ah.
16:27 uvtc phenny, tell flussence http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-29#i_5514927 , (maybe enable issue tracker for that repo?)
16:27 phenny uvtc: I'll pass that on when flussence is around.
16:33 UncleFester6 left #perl6
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16:44 uvtc left #perl6
16:49 dalek tablets: f137f81 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/report.pl:
16:49 dalek tablets: report now also includes anchors and links and otehr appendices
16:49 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/f137f81feb
16:49 dalek tablets: 7fd2e73 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
16:49 dalek tablets: appendix B is now completely backlinked (where it makes sense) precedence table might also be linked
16:49 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/7fd2e73fe0
16:52 uvtc joined #perl6
16:53 uvtc I see that I can get a listing of all, say, Str() methods by doing: `Str.^methods`. Is there yet any way to get Pod docs (if they exist) for a given Str methods, for example, something like, `doc(Str.comb)`?
16:56 tadzik you could do Str.^find_method('comb')[0].WHY or such, but unfortunately, CORE is not documented at all for now
16:56 tadzik and I'm not sure if it's possible yet (circularity, bla bla)
16:58 uvtc Hm. So it's possible to use Pod to document individual methods, and conceivable that Str.^find_method('comb')[0].WHY would display that documentation.
16:58 benabik r: Str.comb.WHAT.say
16:58 p6eval rakudo 2a962e: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Str in string context  in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:670␤␤List()␤»
16:58 uvtc but it's NYI.
16:58 uvtc Ok.
16:58 tadzik right
16:59 uvtc Is anyone working on writing perldocs? Like Perl 5-style perldocs that you could run via `perl6 --doc perlstring` or somesuch?
16:59 tadzik I was thinking about starting doing that
17:00 masak \o/
17:00 uvtc tadzik, I think that would be a *very good thing* (tm)
17:00 tyatpi joined #perl6
17:00 tadzik well, so much for a Secret Project :P
17:00 uvtc Indeed. Sorry about that.
17:00 tadzik I'm still thinking about it, but tuitage is low
17:00 tadzik no worries ;)
17:01 tadzik I was planning this before getting $job and all
17:01 uvtc I think it's essential though. And I also suspect that others may consider it their secret project as well. They might even be ... among us.
17:01 allbery_b joined #perl6
17:02 dalek nqp/toqast: 6f1b074 | masak++ | / (3 files):
17:02 dalek nqp/toqast: added bigint conversion op
17:02 dalek nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6f1b074724
17:04 moritz uvtc: fwiw I have started or particpated in multiple such attempts
17:04 moritz uvtc: which all starved, because nobody joined in, and eventually I moved on to different projects
17:04 uvtc moritz, Right. This topic has come up before. (I may have been the one to bring it up one of those times).
17:05 uvtc moritz, were they placed under the github.com/perl6 umbrella?
17:06 masak documentation is tiring, thankless, and a huge undertaking.
17:06 TimToady it's likely that the specs should evolve into those docs
17:06 * TimToady goes back to hiding behind a 鮫
17:06 * masak .oO( Shang Hai )
17:07 tadzik Shang Shark!
17:07 uvtc It's "hai week" on the discovery channel!
17:07 tadzik :)
17:07 TimToady phenny: jp en "hai"?
17:07 phenny TimToady: "two" (vi to en, translate.google.com)
17:07 masak 'vi'?
17:07 TimToady phenny: ja en "hai"?
17:07 phenny TimToady: "hai" (ja to en, translate.google.com)
17:08 TimToady er...
17:08 TimToady phenny: en ja "lung"?
17:08 phenny TimToady: "肺" (en to ja, translate.google.com)
17:08 masak when GT gets confuzzled, it defaults to preserving the original word.
17:09 TimToady hai doesn't just mean "yes" in Japanese
17:09 masak hai.
17:09 TimToady lung, ash at least
17:09 TimToady or actor, or 'put on a sword'
17:09 TimToady or "high"  :)
17:11 TimToady vi is obviously the language they speak in the Virgin Islands...
17:11 masak in Mandarin: ocean, still/yet, to harm, *sigh*, alas, hey, *lol*, (excalamation of regret), child, helium, hydroxylamine, minced meat, tainted food, to astonish, bones of the body.
17:11 TimToady well, with different tones, so that's cheating :)
17:11 masak (fewer if you know the tone) :P
17:14 TimToady funny that "lung" is written as "market meat"
17:15 masak well, that left component may not be meat.
17:15 irfan joined #perl6
17:15 irfan hi
17:15 masak hi, irfan.
17:15 irfan I am runnign Mac OS and would like to use Perl6
17:15 masak TimToady: though it probably is, considering the word.
17:15 masak irfan: great! good luck!
17:15 irfan I also got perl 5.14 installed on my machine
17:15 TimToady that's how Unicode classifies it
17:16 irfan does Perl6 installation will go into the same dir's?
17:16 TimToady but yeah, meat/moon is often ambiguous
17:16 masak yeah, and confused through history.
17:16 jnthn .oO( Everyone knows the moon's made of meat... )
17:16 masak irfan: yes, unless you set environment variables.
17:16 masak or, um, Configure.pl flags, rather.
17:16 tadzik irfan: no, it won't
17:16 irfan what should I do to avoid it
17:16 tadzik oh, wait
17:17 irfan tadzik are you sure?
17:17 tadzik well, now I'm not
17:17 tadzik I'd bet it goes to Parrot dirs, which doesn't go to Perl 5 dirs
17:18 irfan ok, let me try and confirm it back
17:18 tadzik what Perl 6 are you installing?
17:18 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
17:21 irfan getting it from http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/
17:22 tadzik ok, cool
17:22 uvtc masak, Yes, I agree that writing docs is tiring, thankless, and a huge undertaking. They're also time-consuming (to get wording (and speling) right) and difficult because sometimes you write something really great and someone else comes in and changes it in a way that you think botches it up.
17:22 uvtc I suspect a winning combination for docs right now may be this:
17:23 uvtc (A) create a github.com/perl6/perldocs project,
17:23 moritz uvtc: some was in the mu (then pugs) repository
17:23 colomon tadzik: I don't actually see any changes in the modules I have been looking at?
17:23 uvtc moritz, perhaps those could be culled for useful bits and added to perl6/perldocs
17:23 uvtc (B) keep it brief at first (have guidelines in the perl6/perldocs/README.md), mostly blocks of code examples showing commonly-needed functionality, with brief explanations interspersed as-needed
17:24 uvtc (C) get at least a few of them partially written (perlstring, perlarry, perlhash)
17:24 uvtc (D) make sure `perl6 --doc perlstring` can find them.
17:24 uvtc (E) get them included in the next R*
17:24 uvtc (F) parts of the Synopses could gradually find their way into the perldocs
17:24 moritz hugme: add uvtc to star
17:24 hugme moritz: You need to register with freenode first
17:24 uvtc Personally, I'm not crazy about this because the docs wouldn't be in Markdown :), but it seems to me like the way forward for Perl 6 ... unless some prolific doc writer is planning a grand unveiling of heretofore unseen skunk-works docs.
17:24 moritz hugme: add uvtc to star
17:24 * hugme hugs uvtc. Welcome to star!
17:25 moritz uvtc: you should now have commit access to rakudo/star. If not, please tell me
17:25 uvtc What's ... happening to ... me .... feeling of power surging through ... my veins... must be another ... commit bit.
17:25 moritz :-)
17:27 irfan error: pathspec 'nqp/2012.04.1-1-gedd14da' did not match any file(s) known to git.
17:27 irfan while building rakudo getting above error
17:28 uvtc There's people all over writing docs. There's lots of content from blog posts that could be condensed down and used, there's advent calendar articles, blog posts by moritz, masak, szabgab, colomon, others. There's the Tablets which already have some proto-perldoc content in them...
17:31 geekosaur joined #perl6
17:32 moritz irfan: which rakudo are you building, what commands did you run?
17:32 moritz irfan: cd nqp; git fetch;  # might or might not solve the problem
17:34 irfan best one download https://github.com/downloads/rakudo/star/rakudo-star-2012.04.tar.gz
17:35 irfan and run perl Configure.pl with dir of choice
17:35 moritz what does "with dir of choice" mean?
17:35 icwiener joined #perl6
17:36 irfan i.e. perl Configure.pl  --prefix=<DIR> --gen-parrot --gen-nqp
17:36 * moritz tries to reproduce
17:36 irfan this will avoid clash with any existing Perl version running in system
17:41 moritz hm, local copy now builds NAQP, and no such error has occured so far. Curious.
17:41 irfan were u running mac os x
17:42 irfan mine is 10.7.3
17:49 geekosaur joined #perl6
17:53 dalek star: d45be1b | (John Gabriele)++ | skel/README:
17:53 dalek star: Made in clear in the README where the install/ dir is.
17:53 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/d45be1b558
17:55 sorear good * #perl6
17:59 uvtc If I close an issue at github, how do I link to the relevant commit without having to paste in the entire url for it?
17:59 benabik Just give the SHA-1, abbreviated or whole.
18:00 benabik Also, if you refer to the issue in the commit message, it will be linked to automatically.
18:00 uvtc Oh, nice. Thanks, benabik.
18:00 sorear and if you refer to it using the special syntax (closes #NNN), it will be closed automatically
18:01 uvtc benabik, wait, how do I refer to the issue in the commit message? Using #NNN?
18:01 benabik Yes.
18:01 uvtc Great. Thanks again.
18:11 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
18:12 irfan make rakudo-spectest failed
18:13 irfan Files=636, Tests=19464, 1325 wallclock secs ( 4.46 usr  2.54 sys + 1090.72 cusr 108.45 csys = 1206.17 CPU) Result: FAIL
18:13 moritz irfan: can you please paste the summary above that line? (into a nopaste service like gist.github.com)
18:14 irfan Test Summary Report ------------------- t/spec/S02-magicals/args.t                              (Wstat: 256 Tests: 3 Failed: 0)   Non-zero exit status: 1   Parse errors: Bad plan.  You planned 4 tests but ran 3. t/spec/S02-magicals/pid.t                               (Wstat: 256 Tests: 0 Failed: 0)   Non-zero exit status: 1   Parse errors: Bad plan.  You planned 1 tests but ran 0. t/spec/S02-names-vars/perl.rakudo
18:16 masak looks familiar.
18:16 masak I think it might be something to do with the Mac OS X platform.
18:16 moritz and/or locales
18:18 moritz wait no, wrong failing tests for locale issues
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18:40 eviltwin_b joined #perl6
18:40 masak n: .say for "foo(); bar++baz".split(/<|w>/)
18:40 p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Action method assertion:sym<|> not yet implemented at /tmp/zO4NP4bJH7 line 1:â�¤------> [32m.say for "foo(); bar++baz".split(/<|w[33mâ��[31m>/)[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method oplift in class Anyâ�¤  at /home…
18:43 moritz is that the new(ish) word boundary syntax?
18:47 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
18:54 sorear yes
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19:10 tyatpi joined #perl6
19:10 uvtc Regarding my comments earlier about creating a github.com/perl6/perldocs repo, I think I was on the wrong track. Please disregard them. TimToady is right --- the specs will probably evolve into Perl 6 perldocs.
19:10 rindolf left #perl6
19:12 tadzik colomon: I think Testing is all green now
19:14 brrt joined #perl6
19:21 ggoebel__ joined #perl6
19:23 sorear masak: ping
19:24 moritz runtime/parrot/include/ has lots of generated pasm files
19:24 [Coke] ww.
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19:47 lichtkind alias vor qx is gone ```?
19:47 lichtkind alias vor qx is gone ```?i mean the p5 eval quotes
19:48 moritz backticks are gone, yes
19:50 sorear phenny: de "vor"?
19:50 phenny sorear: "before" (de to en, translate.google.com)
19:51 moritz I think lichtkind just meant 'for'
19:51 huf pronounced nearly the same, so it should do :)
19:52 huf okay... they maybe share one sound out of three :D
19:54 [Coke] more if you speak a germanic language.
19:54 ggoebel__ joined #perl6
19:54 fglock joined #perl6
19:54 huf [Coke]: doesnt german have a different r than english? and isnt the o in the german vor a different other o than the one in for in english?
19:55 xinming joined #perl6
19:58 colomon tadzik: you're right.  hmm.... I know I deleted Math::BigInt from the ecosystem days ago...
19:58 tadzik hmm
19:58 sorear o/ colomon
19:59 colomon \o
19:59 tadzik it
19:59 tadzik 's still in the projects.json I have
19:59 lichtkind mäsak understand me :)
19:59 tadzik ah, I saved the new one as projects.json.1 :/
19:59 * tadzik reruns
20:01 dalek tablets: 6835586 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
20:01 dalek tablets: optimize quoting ops table
20:01 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/68355860f1
20:02 tadzik ah, I can't really rerun it now. I will in an hour or so
20:02 tadzik unless someone wants to do it :)
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20:41 lichtkind ordered things are derive from Seq right?
20:42 moritz Seq is dead.
20:43 lichtkind moritz: nobody told me + its still in spec
20:43 lichtkind moritz: is iterator the new seq?
20:43 lichtkind and why o why seq had to die?
20:45 moritz we used to believe that user would practically never see a Parcel
20:46 moritz and a Parcel assigned to a scalar becomes a Seq
20:46 moritz but, it turns out that no matter how we do things, Parcels always leak out the user
20:46 moritz so it seems simpler to just expose them, and remove the Parcel -> Seq magic
20:47 lichtkind ah and seq will remain as a role or completely go?
20:47 moritz probably go completely
20:47 * jnthn expects the same as moritz
20:48 jnthn I'm glad the Parcel -> Seq magic went away too.
20:48 TimToady Seq was supposed to be a "tuple" type, but tuples will likely end up being readonly shaped arrays rather than Seq
20:49 sorear moritz: yet we still have magic in the same place, for Nil
20:49 moritz sorear: aye
20:50 moritz sorear: I'd rather remove that magic too, and let the undefine() function handler it
20:51 moritz OTOH I see why that magic might be a good idea
20:53 arnsholt jnthn: Is there a simple way to load the dyncall ops from NQP?
20:54 jnthn arnsholt: --vm-libs=nqp_dyncall or some such as a command line fag to nqp
20:54 jnthn *flag
20:54 jnthn arnsholt: Then remember to call the init op (first one in nqp_dyncall.ops)
20:54 sorear moritz: I don't like the way that "$x = $y" is non-transparent to Nil values, and this behavior has bitten me in the past
20:55 sorear Nil cannot be passed through type-oblivious data-rearranging functions
20:55 lichtkind i found never Seq a good name
20:55 lichtkind too short and cryptic
20:56 moritz S04 still talks about "Slice context". Does that still exist? or has it been replaced by LoL context?
20:57 arnsholt jnthn: Cheers. I'm working on adding the CStr repr, and I think I destroyed something, since the Rakudo build suddenly fails =)
20:57 lichtkind so SeqIter will die too?
20:57 jnthn Yes, together with all the non-SeqIter puns
20:58 lichtkind moritz: im currently burring Seq in the spec
20:58 lichtkind push will come soon
20:58 lichtkind jnthn: RangeIter too ?
20:59 ggoebel__ joined #perl6
20:59 jnthn lichtkind: RangeIter is gone, but only because Range itself can serve as a perfectly good iterator.
20:59 jnthn lichtkind: GatherIter, MapIter and ListIter live on.
21:00 TimToady how can Range serve as an iterator if it's immutable?
21:00 jnthn Because iterators are immutable.
21:00 arnsholt Huh. Just looks like it can't resolve the lib. Weird
21:00 arnsholt Something to do for tomorrow I suppose
21:00 arnsholt G'night
21:01 jnthn 'night, arnsholt
21:01 lichtkind jnthn: GatherIter never were in the spec so i dont care :9
21:02 lichtkind TimToady: so rangeiter stays?
21:03 lichtkind phenny: tell masak "look into S02 #Backslash sequences - the is a bell"
21:03 phenny lichtkind: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
21:04 lichtkind TimToady: the snippets containing Seq i will not touch because i dont undertand them the rest will be gone in 10 min
21:14 dalek specs: e8134eb | (Herbert Breunung)++ | S (4 files):
21:14 dalek specs: officially burry Seq, DANGER: some snippets are still in S02 S09 S32/container and numeric
21:14 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/e8134ebd4f
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21:24 dalek tablets: f274a07 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
21:24 dalek tablets: fixing B tables and polish ++ and --
21:24 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/f274a07705
21:24 dalek tablets: 203dfa8 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (3 files):
21:24 dalek tablets: delete Seq, its still insome signatures but spec has to lead the way
21:24 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/203dfa88d2
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22:07 UncleFester6 tadzik: ping
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22:20 masak sorear: pong
22:20 phenny masak: 21:03Z <lichtkind> tell masak "look into S02 #Backslash sequences - the is a bell"
22:20 * masak looks
22:20 masak lichtkind: well, then. that's the answer to your question.
22:21 masak lichtkind: but my point still stands. unless the spec explicitly *undefines* \a, Perl 6 has \a because Perl 5 has \a :)
22:27 sorear masak: release tomorrow!  Did you say you wanted to be involved?
22:27 masak ooh
22:27 masak yeah, let's.
22:27 masak I'll have some time for that tomorrow.
22:44 uvtc joined #perl6
22:44 uvtc masak, hi
22:46 uvtc Oh, it must be quite late where you are. Will try again another time.
22:46 masak I'm here.
22:46 diakopter I don't see you
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22:47 lichtkind uvtc: there is one majo disadvantage for designs like http://tablets.perl6.org/appendix-b-grouped.html#quoting-ops that the lines get 180 chars long
22:47 masak diakopter: in the online experience, we establish a metaphor wherein we borrow real-world concepts into the digial domain.
22:47 uvtc masak, I think I found the remaining Perl 6 docs niche. Filling it here: http://wiki.perl6.org/Mostly%20Harmless%20Docs/Main
22:48 masak ;)
22:48 uvtc See what happens when it's shark week on #perl6?
22:48 masak uvtc++
22:48 * masak .oO( sharks pounce first, ask FAQs later )
22:49 sorear masak: what will you be doing?  how can I help with it?
22:49 uvtc lichtkind, at that point, maybe switch to multi-line table syntax.
22:49 masak sorear: when do you think you'll be available tomorrow?
22:50 lichtkind uvtc: no these look aweful
22:50 masak sorear: I'll probably just get started on following the release guide, and if I hit a snag I'll ask you for assistance.
22:50 lichtkind uvtc: in html all is fine just the sorcecode with the long links is 180 chars
22:51 uvtc lichtkind, I don't recall the issue with multi-line tables. Maybe it's something some css could fix?
22:51 lichtkind uvtc: no they go over full width and give even column with minimal content equal space
22:51 lichtkind uvtc: im not sure if thats fixble
22:52 lichtkind the appearance is fine just the rules of markdown syntax force us for single line tables write everathing in one line too which gets so long
22:53 sorear masak: 1600-1800, 2300-0800, with fuzzy edges and a diner break
22:53 masak gotcha.
22:53 uvtc lichtkind, y'know, I've never tried using the grid table style. Maybe that renders more nicely?
22:53 masak (is that dinner*, or will you go to an actual diner and take a break?)
22:53 uvtc lichtkind, http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/README.html#tables
22:54 sorear hehehehe
22:54 uvtc o/
22:54 sorear o/
22:54 uvtc left #perl6
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23:21 masak 'night, #perl6
23:22 lichtkind good night
23:22 lichtkind o/
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