Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-06-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:07 sudokode joined #perl6
00:09 [Coke] colomon: lots  of "declared but not used"
00:09 colomon [Coke]: YES
00:10 colomon er, yes
00:10 colomon they seem to only happen the first time Niecza compiles the modules, I think.
00:10 [Coke] ah, only on initial compile?
00:10 [Coke] ah.
00:12 [Coke] error: failed files: "wedding.ly"
00:13 colomon huh?
00:13 [Coke] I compiled wedding.abc -> wedding.ly
00:13 colomon ah.
00:13 [Coke] I then ran wedding.ly through lilypond.
00:14 [Coke] boom.
00:14 colomon and it failed?
00:14 colomon can you post the wedding.ly you got in a gist?
00:17 * colomon just checked, and wedding.abc -> wedding.ly does work in his Lilypond.
00:18 colomon huh.  though there are a lot of error messages cropping up in Lilypond's output window I never noticed before.
00:19 [Coke] feather.perl6.nl/~coke
00:19 [Coke] GNU LilyPond 2.14.2
00:19 * colomon has a sudden horrible feeling that Lilypond might be stupid enough to just display the old wedding.pdf file sitting around if generating a new one doesn't work....
00:22 [Coke] put up an "errors" in the same dir.
00:23 mikemol joined #perl6
00:24 colomon yes, I get the exact same wedding.ly file.
00:24 colomon Arrrgh, so sorry for this, let me see what I can figure out here.
00:25 colomon ooo, I think I see what's wrong with the wedding.ly file
00:26 [Coke] if it's any consolation, my son is aghast that he might have to use a text editor. ;)
00:26 colomon grump, my MBP is running slow tonight, too.
00:26 colomon if you search and replace "" in the .ly file with " it should work fine.
00:26 colomon now to track down the bug.
00:27 * colomon must have broken it when he was working on ABC file export a few weeks back
00:30 tokuhirom joined #perl6
00:32 colomon [Coke]: just pushed a bugfix.
00:34 [Coke] \o/
00:34 [Coke] I'm going to tell Nathaniel how to file bug reports, btw. watch out. :)
00:35 colomon sweet!  would be wonderful to have someone else poking at it.
00:36 _jaldhar joined #perl6
00:37 [Coke] is there a way to specify the output file?
00:40 [Coke] nevermind, don't need it.
00:42 colomon you can do it with pipes... <wedding.abc >wedding.ly
00:42 colomon I suppose I could add a -O option or something like that.
00:46 sorear o/ colomon, [Coke]
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00:48 driador joined #perl6
00:51 colomon sorear, o/
00:52 ocharles joined #perl6
01:03 [Coke] ugh, what a mess the wrapper script was.
01:04 [Coke] but it works, he can now use TextEdit to edit an abc file, drop to terminal, and generate a pdf.
01:06 xinming joined #perl6
01:06 [Coke] colomon: do you want to activate "issues" on ABC's github?
01:07 colomon Wynne:ABC colomon$ cat /Users/colomon/bin/abc2ly
01:07 colomon mono /Users/colomon/tools/niecza/run/Niecza.exe -I/Users/colomon/tools/ABC/lib /
01:07 colomon is the script I use.  :)
01:08 colomon Issues activated, I think.
01:08 colomon (I mean, now they are.)
01:08 [Coke] it's messy because he's not me, and I can't install it.
01:10 [Coke] https://gist.github.com/2985840 - colomon
01:11 colomon interesting.  whenever I want a script that complicated, I always write it in perl.  ;)
01:12 [Coke] I used to be a sysadmin, so I use the bash sometimes.
01:12 [Coke] plus, one less thing to config for him.
01:12 [Coke] bad enough I didn't make it a shiny icon he could click on. :)
01:20 colomon :)
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02:05 colomon .u &
02:05 phenny U+0026 AMPERSAND (&)
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03:35 [Coke] # 06/24/2012 - rakudo++ (22459); niecza (91.12%); pugs (34.5%)
03:35 [Coke] rakudo edging slightly forward.
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05:35 lue joined #perl6
05:35 lue blog post! https://rdstar.wordpress.com/2012/06/​25/thoughts-on-starting-nqp-on-llvm/
05:35 lue also, hello again o/
05:35 sorear LUE!
05:35 GlitchMr joined #perl6
05:36 sorear 's been ages!
05:36 lue hello sorear o/
05:36 * sorear jump-hugs lue
05:36 lue XChat said "Loaded log from Wed Mar 28" O.o
05:39 odoacre joined #perl6
05:41 lue I feel I should mention modules.perl6.org is currently telling me no-one test, documents, or updates their modules.
05:41 lue *tests
05:42 moritz \o
05:42 lue hello moritz o/
05:43 aloha joined #perl6
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05:46 adu oOo
05:46 wtw joined #perl6
05:46 wtw joined #perl6
05:48 lue hello adu o/
05:48 adu lue: hey
05:49 adu who wrote the blog post?
05:50 lue the one I just linked to? Me.
05:51 adu good job!
05:52 adu I've also considered LLVM
05:52 lue thank you.
05:52 adu however, I was considering compiling PBC=>LLVM
05:53 lue That's sounds good, as well as simpler (but then I'd still have to compile CORE.setting to PBC if I'm not mistaken :P)
05:54 adu doesn't that happen already?
05:56 lue Once rakudo is put entirely on NQP, I don't think rakudo will need to compile to PBC anymore (esp. if NQP is ported to another backend)
05:58 lue It's been a while since I've tried compiling rakudo locally, but I'm fairly sure I'm unable to get past the PIR->PBC (or NQP->PIR?) stage for CORE.setting
05:58 adu oh right
05:58 bonsaikitten lue: works quite well for me, rakudo+nqp are really benign packages to build
05:59 adu my house might blow away in a tornado
05:59 adu just fyi
05:59 lue I have an incredibly old PowerBook laptop with 384 MiB RAM :) [oh, and 1GiB swap space]
05:59 bonsaikitten ouch
05:59 bonsaikitten lue: you should upgrade to this decade ;)
05:59 lue adu: is the tornado close?
06:00 adu I don't know about tornado, but I hear wind right now, and my house is creaking, and Friday there was an neighborhood about 5 miles away that was completely destroyed
06:01 lue If you'd like to donate to the fund... :) (just kidding) hopefully soon I will upgrade. (I got this computer for free though, so I'm not complaining too loudly)
06:01 adu lue: do you have other computers?
06:02 adu you should set yourself some alerts/filters for computer shows in your area
06:02 lue adu: That's not good. (I get very nervous about high winds, because we live in a forested area with tall pine trees.)
06:02 adu but I still have power, for now :)
06:03 lue There are certainly other computers, but they all run Windows :) . I currently have a list of parts for a computer I can put together (~$800, or just under $600 sans non-computer parts (monitor etc.))
06:04 adu lue: I've seen pictures of metal roofs penetrated by a blade of hay, wind can be serious
06:05 lue Yes, the power of wind is why I tend to feel paranoid on very windy days.
06:07 adu but this pic makes me feel so much better about natural disasters: http://wheeeeeeee.com/wp-content/uploads/20​11/08/Chair_Earthquake_2-e1314142003301.png
06:09 lue :) Can you imagine the horror if someone was in that chair, *doing things*‽
06:09 adu lol
06:10 adu but I think pbc=>llvm might be useful independant of perl6
06:10 sorear lue: get a job :p  you remember my old machine, right?
06:10 * adu gives lue some cake on a plate
06:11 sorear lue: I just signed on with a tiny perl shop and one of the perks is a brand new macbook air
06:11 lue Not quite (but I imagine it was just as bad).
06:11 sorear 384mb ram, 2003 Pentium4 1 core, etc
06:11 lue Ooh, that's nice!
06:11 adu heh
06:11 adu my last 3 laptops have been macbooks
06:12 adu before that was a PowerPC, and before that was a Quadra
06:13 lue (sorear: At least your old machine had an x86 CPU)
06:13 sorear the only laptop I currently have is a Hitachi thingy from 1991
06:13 shachaf sorear: Oh, you replaced your old machine!
06:13 adu btw, Quadra=m86k
06:13 * shachaf remembers the horror stories.
06:13 sorear if it were a year older it would be older than me.
06:13 sorear shachaf: not delivered yet.
06:13 sorear shachaf: a few days yet.
06:13 sorear but it's been promised to me in writing
06:14 adu lue: why SFML?
06:14 shachaf Ah.
06:14 sorear quatra = 680*4*0
06:15 bonsaikitten sorear: I don't see the MBA as perk ;)
06:15 lue adu: 1) C++ 2) I hope I had a better reason that just C++ :)
06:15 lue bonsaikitten: me too, being a linuxer, but at least it's free!
06:16 bonsaikitten lue: but ... it's unusable :(
06:16 bonsaikitten lue: can I interest you in free prostate exams? ;)
06:16 adu that's terrible!
06:17 lue (why the SFML tutorials (as well as many graphical programming ones) is curious)
06:17 sorear it runs Unix, that's all I really insist on
06:17 lue Well, I'd personally s/OS X/Linux/ if possible (worked on this laptop :P)
06:18 sorear yeah, I'll try dual-booting
06:18 sorear but I won't whine if it fails
06:19 adu wtf is http://code.google.com/p/wxgo/
06:19 lue My one problem with OS X (which wasn't what spurred me to install Linux though) was that I had a difficult time doing programming things (e.g. XCode)
06:20 lue [Mind you, this was long before I even started using python, IIRC]
06:20 adu lue: XCode was designed to sell tickets to workshops at ADC
06:20 bonsaikitten my biggest problem with macbooks is that their peripherals suck badly
06:20 adu or WWDC
06:21 lue adu: wxgo appears to be a port of wxwidgets to the Go language.
06:21 adu why isn't it.
06:22 sorear ok, everyone: *I* didn't start this OS holy war.  Drop it.
06:22 adu sorear: what? war?
06:22 sorear next time this comes up, I'll tell people I have a brand X laptop
06:22 lue adu: smells like vaporware to me (someone probably started the page and got bored with the idea 2 days later)
06:23 adu sorear: I'm not interested in oswars
06:23 adu sorear: I'm also a mac user, but it doesn't mean I have to like Apple
06:23 Unik joined #perl6
06:23 bonsaikitten sorear: not about OS ;)
06:24 lue I do have to say that OS X is at least Unix and comes with the normal terminal stuff I'm now used to, like emacs (all helpful when writing up papers on the school's Macs, and insisting on using XeLaTeX :P)
06:24 adu my usual procedure involved deleting emacs, installing macports, then installing emacs
06:25 Unik rakudo: class A { has $.aa; method get_aa handles Real { return $.aa; } };
06:25 p6eval rakudo 7d394e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<handles>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Attribute:D $target, $thunk)␤␤»
06:25 sorear I forgot to greek the brand on my company machine and now everyone is talking about OS X
06:26 adu lue: were you also looking into a GUI lib for perl6?
06:26 Unik hi everyone
06:26 Unik was method delegation scrapped from the docs?
06:26 lue adu: through zavolaj, of course (I'd be coding it myself though).
06:26 sorear Unik: which docs?
06:26 Unik or am I doing something wrong? (probably)
06:26 Unik synopses, I suppose
06:27 Unik or is it just NYI?
06:27 sorear S12:1413
06:27 sorear =head1 Delegation is still in the synopses
06:28 sorear (do you know how to handle Sxx:yyyy synopsis links?)
06:28 Unik no, but found it anyway. thanks
06:29 Unik so my example above is flawed somehow?
06:29 sorear this does not follow.
06:29 Unik perl6: class A { has $.aa; method get_aa handles Real { return $.aa; } };
06:29 p6eval rakudo 7d394e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<handles>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Attribute:D $target, $thunk)␤␤»
06:29 p6eval ..niecza v18-9-g95a1946: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Action method trait_mod:handles not yet implemented at /tmp/IgyFskkKv0 line 1:�------> [32m { has $.aa; method get_aa handles Real [33m�[31m{ return $.aa; } };[0m��Unhandled trait 0 for this context at /tmp/IgyFskkKv0 lin…
06:30 sorear it's in the docs but that's not the same as being implemented
06:30 sorear HOWEVER, your example IS flawed
06:30 sorear 'handles' only works on attributes
06:30 lue bye all o/
06:30 sorear r: class { has $.aa handles Real; }
06:30 p6eval rakudo 7d394e:  ( no output )
06:30 sorear that's the correct syntax
06:30 Unik method select_tail handles <wag hang> {...} is straight from S12, no?
06:31 Unik at the bottom of delegation section
06:36 sorear I guess that isn't implemented
06:37 sisar joined #perl6
06:37 Unik that's fine, i nearly lost my mind trying to spot an error in my code
06:39 Unik also, S12 doesn't say if you can use rw methods in this way
06:40 sorear you ought to be able to, I can't think of any interaction
06:45 moritz you can do 'handles' on a method?
06:46 moritz if you call it, does it act on the return value of the method?
06:46 moritz or is it just an alias?
06:50 Unik S12 says it passes calls to return value of the method
06:51 Unik but it's only mentioned once without too much detail
06:59 sisar moritz: link to Synopsis on http://perlgeek.de/blog-en​/perl-5-to-6/16-enums.html is broken
07:00 moritz sisar: thanks
07:03 bbkr joined #perl6
07:03 moritz sisar: fixed
07:03 sisar :)
07:03 bbkr hi from Silicon Valley o/
07:04 sorear hello, bbkr
07:04 moritz \o bbkr
07:04 sorear say hi to TimToady for me :)
07:08 dalek niecza: 07900b5 | sorear++ | lib/CORE.setting:
07:08 dalek niecza: Handle 0-arg [min] and [max], fixes #71
07:08 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/07900b5cac
07:08 masak morning, #perl6
07:09 sisar morning masak
07:09 sorear morning masak.
07:13 pmichaud rn:  say [max] (Any, Any, 2);
07:13 p6eval rakudo 7d394e, niecza v18-9-g95a1946: OUTPUT«2␤»
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07:19 jnthn morning, #perl6
07:19 sisar moritz: link to Synopsis on http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/​perl-5-to-6/17-unicode.html is broken. Btw, nice post !
07:19 diakopter ahoy
07:19 sisar morning jnthn
07:19 sorear good morning diakopter. jnthn.
07:19 pmichaud good morning, briefly
07:19 pmichaud (about to head off to sleep :)
07:26 dalek roast: 4ec2969 | pmichaud++ | S03-metaops/reduce.t:
07:26 dalek roast: Add some tests for argumentless [min] and [max].
07:26 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4ec2969e81
07:28 * masak .oO( and don't call us Briefly ) :P
07:29 masak "Delegation" gets a green for Rakudo in http://perl6.org/compilers/features -- and yet Rakudo doesn't have method delegation. is that correct?
07:30 kresike joined #perl6
07:30 kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people
07:31 jnthn meeting &
07:33 pmichaud masak: I don't think we even have tests for method delegation yet.
07:34 pmichaud and given that it gets only two lines of S12; I'm not sure that pushes it into yellow.  You can of course disagree.  :)
07:55 sorear n: $*moo = 5
07:55 p6eval niecza v18-9-g95a1946: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤  at /tmp/VnLIF8lUMt line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3917 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3918 (module-CORE @ 562) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib…
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 53fc0ae | pmichaud++ | src/core/Bool.pm:
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Restore [^^] and [xor].
08:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/53fc0aedbe
08:13 dalek roast: 65b73e9 | pmichaud++ | S03-metaops/reduce.t:
08:13 dalek roast: [S03]:  Unfudge [^^] tests for rakudo.
08:13 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/65b73e94c9
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08:27 sorear sleep&
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08:37 moritz I think the REPL and backtraces don't interact well
08:42 moritz which is the ultimate reason for RT #113776
08:50 kaleem joined #perl6
09:08 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 17 commits to rakudo/ex-hardening by moritz
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09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: b9a332b | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: improve robustness of internal error reporting
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b9a332b3a5
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: b68a884 | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: be more tight about :D in invocant
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b68a88423b
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: 57d251f | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: fix previous commit
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/57d251ff7a
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: 2fdf4bc | moritz++ | / (11 files):
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge branch 'nom' into ex-hardening
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2fdf4bcf25
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: 50774a3 | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: [Backtrace] it is fine to generate empty backtraces
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: this seems to happen only on the REPL. Fixes RT #113776
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/50774a3df4
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: 094e41b | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge branch 'ex-hardening' into nom
09:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/094e41bed0
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09:39 moritz r: <a b c>[Any]
09:39 p6eval rakudo 53fc0a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $pos of type Any in numeric context  in block <anon> at /tmp/Hn3qA2mQFn:1␤␤No such method 'Int' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in method at_pos at src/gen/CORE.setting:5323␤  in method postcircumfix:<[ ]> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1208␤  i…
09:39 moritz r: <a b c>[+Any]
09:39 p6eval rakudo 53fc0a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context  in block <anon> at /tmp/EPChfeI9F8:1␤␤»
09:40 moritz one could argue that those two should do the same
09:40 moritz n: <a b c>[Any]
09:40 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1262 (warn @ 5) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 296 (Any.Numeric @ 8) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.s…
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11:38 colomon Has it been announced where the next YAPC::NA will be?
11:48 daxim colomon, answer from MagNET #yapc:
11:48 daxim <Yaakov> No, there is no announcement.  Bids are being reviewed.
11:48 lue joined #perl6
11:48 colomon daxim++
11:49 * colomon hopes it is someplace he can easily drive to....
11:55 leprevost joined #perl6
11:56 colomon Columbus was actually ideal for me -- an easy drive and I could stay with my brother-in-law.  :)
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12:08 pmichaud (yapc)  TPF extended the deadline this year for yapc submissions
12:08 pmichaud (good morning, Perl6)
12:13 kresike hello pmichaud
12:14 pmichaud hello kresike
12:15 [Coke] pmichaud: you didn't get much sleep.
12:15 kresike you certainly don't sleep much
12:15 [Coke] heh
12:15 kresike :)
12:16 pmichaud I may head back to sleep in a bit; have to take $kid to $school
12:19 _jaldhar joined #perl6
12:28 [Coke] kids are done, here.
12:29 pmichaud well, $school is really summer activities
12:29 kresike no kids here yet, thouugh that will change in about three weeks :)
12:29 kresike though*
12:30 [Coke] ooh, good luck.
12:30 kresike thanks
12:31 * jnthn home
12:32 * masak home
12:32 dalek roast: ea70649 | pmichaud++ | S05-grammar/protoregex.t:
12:32 dalek roast: Add tests for RT #113590 (double angles in protoregex names).
12:32 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ea70649796
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12:54 dalek roast: b61ccd1 | pmichaud++ | S03-smartmatch/any-bool.t:
12:54 dalek roast: Update boolean smartmatch tests for RT #77080.
12:54 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/b61ccd136a
12:55 masak pmichaud: yes, I disagree to the extent that having that box be green (1) tells outsiders "it's done now", and then they are disappoint when it isn't, and also (2) tells us "it's done now", so we don't go looking for more spec to implement.
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12:56 pmichaud masak: I'm fine with switching it to yellow.
12:56 pmichaud It just means that jnthn++ will likely implement method handles to switch it back to green again.  :)
12:56 masak that sounds like a fine deal by me :)
12:56 jnthn :P
12:57 * jnthn had totally forgotten that bit of the spec existed...
12:57 pmichaud it's only 2 lines in S12.  :)
12:57 dalek specs: 26b64e4 | pmichaud++ | S03-operators.pod:
12:57 dalek specs: S03:   C<true> should be C<so>
12:57 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/26b64e42af
12:58 dalek features: f5f9c89 | (Carl Mäsak)++ | features.json:
12:58 dalek features: switch delegation/rakudo to yellow
12:58 dalek features: review: https://github.com/perl6/f​eatures/commit/f5f9c8921c
13:00 pmichaud
13:06 masak fine with it... but sad?
13:07 pmichaud always a little sad to see green->yellow, even if I know it's "correct"
13:07 masak nod
13:07 [Coke] pmichaud: perhaps more cowbell would help.
13:08 [Coke] .u bell
13:08 phenny U+237E BELL SYMBOL (⍾)
13:08 PerlJam Easier would have been to remove the two lines from the spec  ;-)
13:08 PerlJam (good morning btw)
13:09 [Coke] ⍾ - ... Someone needs to make rog-utf8-e
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13:19 Crooky Hai. Are the perl6 developer in any way involved with the perl5 developers?
13:19 Crooky related*
13:19 PerlJam Crooky: kinda not really
13:20 PerlJam Crooky: Many of ther Perl 6 devs are also Perl 5 people in that they use Perl 5 regularly
13:20 pmichaud we're involved at high levels; we usually aren't involved at low-level code levels.
13:20 * [Coke] doesn't think we have anyone actively committing (or even commenting) on both perls.
13:20 Crooky why perl6? And what makes it important?
13:21 masak Crooky: p5 and p6 devs keep in touch and talk a lot at conferences.
13:21 masak Crooky: Perl 6 is a redesign of the Perl ideas embedded in Perl 5. it has some advantages.
13:21 pmichaud and even outside of conferences;  rjbs++ has been a regular here lately :)
13:21 driador joined #perl6
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13:40 brrt joined #perl6
13:46 PerlJam lue++
13:46 dalek roast: 9e82fe0 | pmichaud++ | S02-names-vars/perl.t:
13:46 dalek roast: Test default Mu.perl  (resolves RT #62002).
13:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9e82fe0ad4
13:49 masak wow, there's 195 nicks in here right now.
13:50 frettled That means that the activity is at less than 3% in an hour.  ;)
13:51 masak why does it mean that?
13:52 frettled Only 6 nicks said anything in the past hour.  :)
13:52 frettled 6/195 ≈ 3%
13:53 flussence 7!
13:53 masak ah.
13:53 frettled I'm not making a value judgment, though.
13:53 frettled flussence: darnit, 8?
13:53 frettled A whopping 4%!
13:53 masak hehe.
13:54 frettled Given the technical level of some of the discussions here, I don't think that's bad.  I think it's very good that so many listen or pretend listening.
13:54 masak well, I don't believe lurkers are a sign of a systemic error or anything.
13:54 masak quite the opposite.
13:55 masak sometimes I'm concerned about the argument "I don't dare say anything, because obviously all you people are rocket surgeons from the fifth dimension, and I'm just a lowly coder".
13:56 masak but I don't know what to do about it. it's always been like that here.
13:56 masak it's hard to fix people's confidence :)
13:56 jnthn Rocket...surgery? :P
13:56 masak it ain't exactly brain science, you know.
13:56 kresike masak, your perfect english makes things even worse :P
13:57 PerlJam heh
13:57 masak kresike: nice try, Frenchie boy.
13:58 masak we're not switching the channel over to French.
13:58 PerlJam honestly, many times #perl6 does speak in another language that looks like english but doesn't grok the same
13:58 kresike by the way, after watching a few of jnthn's presentations about rakudo development, it seems a little simpler to me too :)
13:58 masak aye. jnthn++ has that effect on people.
13:58 kresike masak, make that hungarian :)
13:58 PerlJam (I believe I just minted a new use of the work grok in that sentence :)
13:58 masak oh!
13:58 masak my bad.
13:58 masak PerlJam: medial 'grok'? nah, old :P
13:58 PerlJam oh, perhaps I just don't see it often
13:58 PerlJam (ever)
13:59 kresike but don't try learning it, I know by experience it's one of the harder languages ...
13:59 masak PerlJam: you know it originally means "to drink", right? :P
13:59 PerlJam aye
13:59 masak kresike: that's what they all say.
13:59 * [Coke] is not sure he's share water with any of you weirdos.
13:59 tyatpi joined #perl6
13:59 [Coke] *he'd
13:59 masak kresike: do you know the tongue-twister with the sailing boat? the one with lots of "hajo" in it?
13:59 PerlJam kresike: Perl 6 is not one of the harder languages  ;)
13:59 jnthn [Coke]: To drink, or to swim in? :)
14:00 masak [Coke]: *lol*
14:00 kresike masak, Ok, go ahead then, maybe I'll have something I can help you with :)
14:00 PerlJam [Coke]: as long as the water isn't yellow and has been boiled, you're probably safe
14:00 kresike masak, you mean: vitorlás hajó
14:00 masak jnthn: [Coke]++ is referring to the work of fiction that introduced "grok". http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-Strang​e-Land-Robert-Heinlein/dp/0441790348/
14:00 jnthn oh!
14:01 jnthn I'm so uncultured :)
14:01 masak kresike: yes, but there's a whole sentence with just repeated haj? all the way.
14:01 masak jnthn: no, you're just behind on your Heinlein ;)
14:01 kresike PerlJam, compared to hungarian, it's a breeze :)
14:02 kresike masak, I don't think I know the right answer to that :(
14:02 PerlJam masak: I specifically read that book because of the word "grok" many years ago
14:02 PerlJam haj? == buffalo?
14:02 PerlJam ;)
14:02 masak PerlJam: I think I knew about the word, but read the book for other reasons.
14:03 masak PerlJam: it's way out of date in some ways (even though it was a bit ahead of its time back then), but it's still an eerie read.
14:03 sisar joined #perl6
14:13 dalek nqp: 5a8707b | pmichaud++ | src/HLL/Compiler.pm:
14:13 dalek nqp: Add -V/--verbose-config option to HLL::Compiler (RT #62462).
14:13 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/5a8707b02d
14:15 fgomez joined #perl6
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: 185f8fc | pmichaud++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump NQP_REVISION to get -V option (RT #62462).
14:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/185f8fc1a9
14:33 JimmyZ joined #perl6
14:36 adu joined #perl6
14:50 sisar rn: say any(2,3)>>+<<all(1, 2);
14:50 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«all(any(3, 4), any(4, 5))␤»
14:50 p6eval ..rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«any(all(3, 4), all(4, 5))␤»
14:50 sisar honestly, i don't know what I was expecting ^
14:51 harmil -3 was the correct answer
14:51 pmichaud well, since neither any(2,3) nor all(1,2) are lists, they end up acting just like scalars (or lists with one element)
14:51 pmichaud rn: say any(2,3) + all(1,2)
14:51 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«all(any(3, 4), any(4, 5))␤»
14:51 p6eval ..rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«any(all(3, 4), all(4, 5))␤»
14:52 harmil Which seems like the correct lazy behavior...
14:53 pmichaud rn: say all(1,2) + any(2,3)
14:53 p6eval rakudo 094e41, niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«all(any(3, 4), any(4, 5))␤»
14:53 pmichaud rn: say any(2,3) + all(1,2)
14:53 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«all(any(3, 4), any(4, 5))␤»
14:53 p6eval ..rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«any(all(3, 4), all(4, 5))␤»
14:53 * pmichaud senses a rakudobug.
14:53 masak how so?
14:54 jnthn I think the current auto-threader just threads on the first junction it finds.
14:54 masak oh!
14:54 masak that's wrong, yes.
14:54 jnthn S09 has some funny wording on doing something else.
14:54 * masak submits rakudobug
14:54 jnthn It's already in RT.
14:54 masak S09 says "disjunctions outermost, yes".
14:54 jnthn Yeah.
14:54 masak ok.
14:54 * masak unsubmits it
14:54 jnthn The junction auto-threader is also slow.
14:54 jnthn It's still the "make something work enough" cut from the very early nom days.
14:55 masak jnthn: it's not so funny (as in weird), if you consider how && an || nest in terms of precedence.
14:55 masak and&
14:55 jnthn masak: Yeah, I know the reason.
14:55 masak and*
14:55 pmichaud leftmost 'all' or 'none', followed by leftmost 'one' or 'any'
14:55 masak nod.
14:55 jnthn It's just an edge case Rakudo doesn't implement yet.
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14:58 sisar rn: say (any(2,3))++; #Rakudo leaks internal(?) error
14:58 p6eval rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«No such method 'STORE' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in sub AUTOTHREAD_METHOD at src/gen/CORE.setting:1829␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2296␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1341␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/Anddle7G7z:1␤␤»
14:58 p6eval ..niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: cannot increment a value of type Junction␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 272 (Mu.succ @ 9) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/q8xcTWtSBc line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ …
14:58 pmichaud doesn't look internal to me
14:59 sisar but yeha, LTA erroe
14:59 sisar but yeah, LTA error
14:59 pmichaud rn:  say 2++
14:59 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤  at /tmp/obkhqvBI4v line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3917 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3918 (module-CORE @ 562) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
14:59 p6eval ..rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2770␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/7l3RmlxCH_:1␤␤»
14:59 moritz well
14:59 moritz the proper thing would be to fail the dispatch to postfix:<++>
14:59 pmichaud moritz: why?
14:59 moritz after all postfix:<++> has an rw argument
15:00 moritz and rw-ness should fail at binding time
15:00 moritz erm
15:00 pmichaud r:  my $a = 2;  my $b = 3;   any($a, $b)++;  say $a; say $b;
15:00 p6eval rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«No such method 'STORE' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in sub AUTOTHREAD_METHOD at src/gen/CORE.setting:1829␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2296␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1341␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/dht_TpIRbU:1␤␤»
15:00 moritz binding a non-container to an rw-paremeter should fail at binding time
15:00 * jnthn thinks moritz is right here
15:00 pmichaud okay, if we cannot have junctions of containers, then yes.
15:01 jnthn I think the junction construction is decontainerizing.
15:01 masak could "fail at binding time" mean we can detect it at compile time at some point in the future?
15:01 pmichaud r:  my $a = 2;  my $b = 3;   any(\$a, \$b)++;  say $a; say $b;
15:01 p6eval rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«No such method 'succ' for invocant of type 'Capture'␤  in sub AUTOTHREAD_METHOD at src/gen/CORE.setting:1829␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2296␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1341␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/pfVcYA13t5:1␤␤»
15:01 masak r: say "OH HAI"; 5++
15:01 p6eval rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2770␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/mocoU1kHOU:1␤␤»
15:02 jnthn That last one is probably catchable at compile time in le optimizer.
15:02 pmichaud l'optimizer :-)
15:02 jnthn d'oh :P
15:03 pmichaud so, does that mean that is rw parameters never autothread, ooc?
15:03 pmichaud that feels.... wrongish.
15:03 jnthn pmichaud: I think they can auto-thread.
15:03 jnthn pmichaud: But we statically know 5 is not rw :)
15:04 pmichaud I'm talking about the   (2,3)++ case
15:04 pmichaud er,   any(2,3)++
15:04 jnthn Ah
15:04 jnthn I think ti'd auto-thread
15:04 jnthn Probably already does
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15:05 jnthn Then fails to bind.
15:05 pmichaud actually, I think the problem is that it *is* binding
15:05 jnthn Oh.
15:05 pmichaud thus we get to the STORE issue
15:05 jnthn Oh, it is auto-threading
15:05 jnthn But then the "is rw" doesn't cause a bind failure yet.
15:05 jnthn I think we had some reason for delaying adding that...I forget what it was.
15:05 jnthn It's probably not a reason any more. Guess there's a way to find out... :)
15:06 sisar I'm sorry, i don't know enough about this issue to file a bug report (or if there is even an issue or not), maybe masak++ can do it...
15:06 * sisar -> dinner
15:07 masak I'm not sure yet if it is a bug either.
15:09 * [Coke] is sad at www.youtube.com/user/yapcna/videos?query=pmichaud
15:09 pmichaud I'm pretty sure the post-autothreading calls should fail the binding
15:10 jnthn Yes
15:10 jnthn But it's not anything to do with auto-threading really
15:10 jnthn r: sub foo($x is rw) { }; foo(5)
15:10 p6eval rakudo 094e41:  ( no output )
15:10 jnthn That's the real issue.
15:10 pmichaud [Coke]: oh, yay, at least the videos are starting to appear
15:10 pmichaud r:  5++
15:10 p6eval rakudo 094e41: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2770␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/BQ_3JlegfF:1␤␤»
15:10 pmichaud oh, I get it.  okay.
15:11 pmichaud well, not completely, but okay.  I don't understand why  5++  and any(2,3)++ give different errors
15:11 PerlJam [Coke]: sad that the videos aren't all tagged properly?  I'm pretty sure I saw pmichaud's list talk on there the other day.
15:12 pmichaud PerlJam: those are unofficial videos
15:12 [Coke] ah. s/pm/m// !
15:12 pmichaud Coke is looking at the yapcna official channel
15:13 Khisanth joined #perl6
15:13 kresike bye all
15:13 mucker joined #perl6
15:14 [Coke] there is one patrick video, but this one is only 49s. :)
15:14 PerlJam ah
15:14 pmichaud mithaldu's videos were "unauthorized" -- see the end of http://blogs.perl.org/users/mithaldu/2012/0​6/how-the-yapcna-videos-got-on-youtube.html
15:14 * PerlJam just searched for "YAPC 2012" and doesn't care if they are "official" or not :)
15:15 daxim official and complete is http://youtube.com/yapcna
15:15 pmichaud well, I don't really care about officialness either; but I'm pretty sure mithaldu won't be posting more, so that means we have to wait for the official yapc::na ones to come out, and since none of my talks are out yet, I am sad (as Coke++ is)
15:16 daxim http://youtu.be/SuY8FOIb7I0  # Introducing Camelia
15:16 Dzinosky joined #perl6
15:16 pmichaud daxim: official, yes; complete, I hope not.
15:17 pmichaud as in, I hope what they have up there now isn't "complete"  :)
15:19 daxim completer than just the last day, what mithaldu got
15:20 pmichaud okay, I managed to close 11 RT tickets in the past six hours; time for a break :)
15:20 jnthn whoa
15:20 jnthn pmichaud++
15:22 frettled pmichaud++ good going, man!
15:22 pmichaud that even includes about 3 hours of sleep :)
15:24 masak pmichaud++
15:25 moritz pmichaud++
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15:39 rjbs pmichaud++ # and if you just need a break from p6, we have some tickets you could close in p5 for a break :)
15:41 [Coke] I am happy to see leurs (sp?) and keenan slogging through that queue.
15:43 moritz le urs?
15:44 [Coke] with bees in his mouth.
15:45 [Coke] hurm. that may be slightly too esoteric. ;)
15:45 [Coke] Jesse Luehrs.
15:45 [Coke] ++
15:45 sirhc joined #perl6
15:51 moritz oops, seems I've broken the layout on http://perl6.org/community/
15:51 lue joined #perl6
15:52 masak you broke the community! o.O
15:53 masak anyway, moritz++ for improving things in general.
15:53 dalek perl6.org: 375a7e5 | moritz++ | source/community/index.html:
15:53 dalek perl6.org: [community] unbreak markup
15:53 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/p​erl6.org/commit/375a7e5e31
15:54 moritz in general, but not in particular :-)
15:55 masak you'd probably get more ++es if I knew the particulars :)
15:56 * masak .oO( unbreak markup. say you'll love me again... )
15:57 [Coke] *groan*
15:57 masak requested: a lightning talk about pop love songs as memetic viruses thriving on people's neurochemical pathways.
15:58 * masak .oO( this song is *exactly* what happened to me: yes, yes, he walked out the door! )
16:02 brrt left #perl6
16:04 moritz nr: my $x = 2; $x = ($x + 2 / $x) / 2 for 1..10; say $x
16:04 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«1.4142135623730949␤»
16:04 p6eval ..rakudo 185f8f: OUTPUT«1.41421356237309␤»
16:04 moritz nr: my $x = 2; $x = ($x + 2 / $x) / 2 for 1..10; say $x.WHAT
16:04 p6eval rakudo 185f8f, niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
16:04 moritz nr: my $x = 2; $x = ($x + 2 / $x) / 2 for 1..5; say $x.WHAT
16:04 p6eval rakudo 185f8f, niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
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16:09 masak that looks right to me.
16:10 moritz aye
16:11 dalek doc: cfa8f0e | moritz++ | lib/Rat.pod:
16:11 dalek doc: [Rat] explain overflow of denominator and fallback to Num
16:11 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cfa8f0e53b
16:16 sorear good * #perl6
16:24 vlixes joined #perl6
16:25 moritz \o sorear
16:29 dalek doc: f6edbb6 | moritz++ | lib/Rat.pod:
16:29 dalek doc: [Rat] some more trivia
16:29 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f6edbb62c0
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16:39 dalek doc: 25a4b5f | moritz++ | lib/Rational.pod:
16:39 dalek doc: Rational
16:39 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/25a4b5f6b6
16:45 dalek doc: 6d2c1d8 | moritz++ | lib/Rational.pod:
16:45 dalek doc: [Rational] method signatures; method new
16:45 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6d2c1d8097
16:53 [Coke] moritz: mind a docpatch for perl6/doc that updates the README to explain why all the docs look empty in github?
16:54 [Coke] (I think this points to a larger confusing issue for POD tools that find six.pod files in the wild.)
16:55 moritz [Coke]: I don't mind, no
16:55 dalek doc: 7bf22c9 | moritz++ | README:
16:55 dalek doc: [README] add help wanted section
16:55 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7bf22c918d
16:56 moritz hm, maybe we should switch to .pod6 as extension
17:12 kaleem joined #perl6
17:21 [Coke] I would suggest it, but imagine it would be shot down.
17:50 moukeddar_ joined #perl6
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17:54 masak nah. knock yourselves out with extensions. :)
17:54 lue joined #perl6
17:56 PerlJam moritz: nah, the suffix should be .p6d
17:56 PerlJam </bikeshedding>  :)
17:57 timotimo i'm for pōd instead
17:58 timotimo it looks like a combination of pod and p6d, because the upper line of the 6 is still there
17:58 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:59 PerlJam timotimo: clearly your suggestion is best.
17:59 timotimo i know, but thanks :]
18:00 masak so much agreement
18:00 [Coke] .рбд
18:00 geekosaur rabid pods?
18:06 masak general question to the room: in writing up the blog post for p6cc2011/t5, I'm desperately trying to remember the URL of a PDF paper from the 1980s about counting unrooted 4-trees using functional programming. does anyone remember sending this URL to me in the first place? (through privmsg, IIRC)
18:11 snearch joined #perl6
18:17 masak nvm, moritz++ dug it up from our privmsgs.
18:17 masak it's here, for people who can't wait for the t5 post: http://www.cs.wright.edu/~tkprasad/​courses/cs776/paraffins-turner.pdf
18:20 * PerlJam resists a pun with K&R C
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18:49 masak it seems a cute language, really. "a collection of equations by means of which the user attaches names to various objects in KRC's universe of discourse". sounds like Haskell :)
18:49 * masak only now noticed that the definition of KRC is basically recursive
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19:00 sisar hm, this is the error i get when trying to install LWP::Simple using panda: https://gist.github.com/2990527 . Looks like Panda failed to recognize that MIME::Base64 is a dependency.
19:01 * tadzik looks
19:01 tadzik oh, I see
19:01 tadzik grep -i base ~/.panda/state will probably tell you, that it's installed, while it isn't really
19:01 tadzik so your ~/.panda and ~/.perl6 are probably out of sync
19:02 sisar tadzik: right. What should I do ?
19:03 arnsholt masak: If KRC is Kent Recursive Calculator, it's Haskell's grandmother IIRC
19:03 tadzik sisar: you can manually install MIME::Base64
19:03 arnsholt KRC begat Miranda begat Haskell
19:03 sisar tadzik: ok
19:03 tadzik or just purge/manually update your state file, to be sure it works in the future
19:03 brrt joined #perl6
19:04 arnsholt (Ref. Wadler's Why Calculating is Better than Scheming)
19:09 sisar adding a "plan x;" to a .t file is compulsory or recommended ?
19:09 tadzik phenny: en pl "compulsory"?
19:09 phenny tadzik: "obowiązkowy" (en to pl, translate.google.com)
19:10 tadzik recommended
19:10 tadzik you can also add 'done;' at the very end
19:11 sisar why is it recommended ? why is 'done;' recommended ?
19:11 tadzik having either of those is good to have, for if you don't have one, TAP harness cannot know whether the tests are finished, or simply the script has crashed
19:12 geekosaur (1) documentation, and so test frameworks can tell how many tests you are supposed to have; (2)... that
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19:33 dalek nqp/toqast: 4c86f84 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Node.nqp:
19:33 dalek nqp/toqast: $!name can't be str if we put it here, it turns out. May be better to move it into various other nodes where it can be, since it's just Regex with specialer needs.
19:33 dalek nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4c86f847f4
19:33 dalek nqp/toqast: 20a37a9 | jnthn++ | src/Q (3 files):
19:33 dalek nqp/toqast: Various fixes so we can use native types on QAST::Regex attributes.
19:33 dalek nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/20a37a90fd
19:42 masak arnsholt: ooh! that makes a lot of sense, then.
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19:52 dalek rakudo/toqast: 841e783 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/ (2 files):
19:52 dalek rakudo/toqast: Translate method calls to QAST. Again, a few complicated ones left over (please don't 'help' by changing the leftovers!)
19:52 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/841e7839fb
19:57 masak "(please don't 'help' by changing the leftovers!)" -- I picture a frustrated chef somewhere.
19:57 tadzik :P
19:58 masak "Madre mia, they again switch the leftovers... for chicken feathers! Why, why?"
19:58 jnthn Yeah, one of them will result in a bloody hard to find bug if dealt with wrongly...
20:24 eiro tadzik, jnthn i don't find your pass id: did you sent it to me ?
20:25 eiro hello all
20:25 eiro BooK, also :)
20:25 masak hi eiro
20:26 eiro masak, hi. i'm working on the perl6 introduction (what is rakudo, rakudo-star, parrot, ...)
20:26 eiro any slides to steal ?
20:28 tadzik eiro: no, I did not; TBH, I fell a little bit uneasy about it :/
20:28 tadzik eiro: is it too late already?
20:28 jnthn .oO( Do they validate the numbers we give them... )
20:29 eiro tadzik, your choice :)
20:29 eiro tadzik, no but i prefer to ask :)
20:29 jnthn eiro: http://jnthn.net/articles.shtml is my slides page
20:29 eiro jnthn, i don't think so: feel free to give a fake :)
20:29 eiro jnthn, thx
20:30 tadzik eiro: if I wanted to buy a local SIM to use the internet, how do the prices look like?
20:30 eiro i really don't know about those kind of things :(
20:30 tadzik BooK?
20:31 eiro tadzik, i ask on the fpw list right now
20:31 pochi joined #perl6
20:31 tadzik okay, thanks
20:36 sisar joined #perl6
20:37 eiro tadzik, jnthn masak i hope you'll be there to back me up at the perl6 intro: i'll let a long time for free questions
20:37 tadzik eiro: as long as the language barrier won't stop us :)
20:38 masak language barrier?
20:38 masak phenny: en fr "language barrier?"?
20:38 phenny masak: "barrière de la langue ?" (en to fr, translate.google.com)
20:39 masak phenny: "barri?re de la langue?"?
20:39 phenny masak: "barrels ? re de la langue ?" (es to en, translate.google.com)
20:39 sisar masak: the type hierarchy/tree diagram you have on http://strangelyconsistent.​org/blog/june-24-2011-types, is partial. Is the complete diagram of type hierarchy available somewhere?
20:39 masak phenny: fr "barri?re de la langue?"?
20:39 phenny masak: "Barri ? re the language ?" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
20:39 masak oh!
20:39 masak phenny: fr "barrière de la langue?"?
20:39 phenny masak: "language barrier ?" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
20:39 masak sisar: no. feel free to create one.
20:40 eiro tadzik, i'll translate if needed. the thing is i don't know what kind of question can be asked
20:40 sisar masak: ok. I thought the spec would(should?) have one.
20:40 tadzik eiro: we'll do the best we can
20:41 masak by the way, I again want to advertise my plans for July to re-visit http://strangelyconsistent.org/bl​og/june-30-2011-text-adventure-ii and re-build it from scratch in 31 simple steps, with tests.
20:41 masak tadzik, eiro: I'm not worried, at all.
20:41 masak some of us know school French. and there are plenty of anglophones in the room.
20:42 masak (for those who don't know, an anglophone is a special phone where you call for translation help. France is full of them)
20:42 sisar masak: i think thats the only part of your blog series I havne't gone through ! I mean the last two post, the ones with the game.
20:42 masak turns out the game was far too big for two posts.
20:42 masak (and hence took far too long to get out the door, too)
20:43 masak but I must say I'm proud of the image in http://strangelyconsistent.org/bl​og/june-29-2011-text-adventure-i
20:43 masak I wish I didn't have to make such images using Inkscape. I'd like a DSL for them.
20:45 eiro masak, "is learning perl6 worth now" ? are you ready for that ?
20:45 PerlJam masak: dot is kinda close
20:46 PerlJam masak: but ... you could always make a DSL yourself (and blog about it! :-)
20:46 dalek rakudo/toqast: 27f9453 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/ (2 files):
20:46 dalek rakudo/toqast: Translate a bunch of calls to QAST.
20:46 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/27f9453d34
20:47 masak PerlJam: I already have plans. there's a gist if you're interested.
20:48 masak PerlJam: the idea has infected many things; my blog; some $work stuff. I expect to do it this summer.
20:48 masak eiro: could you please be more specific? is this a talk I'm supposed to make? do I need slides?
20:49 eiro masak, no: i mean:
20:49 PerlJam masak: I'm certainly curious, but I wouldn't say "interested" because I don't want to add to my list-of-things-undone
20:50 eiro one of the first talk is "intro to perl6". I have a slot of 45mn to introduce all the strange keywords, the history of perl6, what the community expect from it and what the users can expert right now
20:50 eiro the truth is: i'm really not sure about my answers
20:51 masak PerlJam: oh, I'm not dragging you into anything. but it certainly would be fun to drag the idea through your expertise and see what sticks.
20:51 * masak digs up the gist
20:51 sisar https://gist.github.com/2991123 ... how the hell did Rakudo reach line no. 5 ?! There are only three lines in the code !
20:51 eiro it would be very easy to me if i know you're around and handle those kind of questions
20:52 sisar r: {
20:52 p6eval rakudo 185f8f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤»
20:52 masak PerlJam: https://gist.github.com/1751911
20:52 sorear sisar: rakudo used to complain about exceptions in the setting around like 1 bln
20:52 arnsholt sisar: Rakudo has been known to have problems counting lines
20:52 eiro i mean: the running joke "perl6 is the langage of Duke Nukem Forever running on HURD", someone will tell us that... i know it
20:53 masak eiro: I'll certainly be ready for such questions.
20:53 eiro or: perl5 is fine, why perl6 ?
20:53 eiro masak, ok :)
20:53 masak eiro: I remember when jnthn and I came to YACP::Russia in Moscow, and I got all those questions.
20:53 sisar sorear, arnsholt: oh, ok.
20:53 tadzik . o O ( "Oh, I haven't noticed you uploading DNF to our ecosystem" )
20:53 masak eiro: I feel I'm pretty good at handling them.
20:53 eiro \o/ glad to read that :)
20:54 jnthn Nobody has ever actually asked me a question involving HURD and Duke Nukem at a Perl conference yet, fwiw. :)
20:54 PerlJam eiro: "Why is it called Perl 6 if it's a different language?"  :)
20:55 masak the more I see Perl 6 emerging, the more I feel it was worth the wait.
20:57 sisar r: use v6;␤␤{
20:57 p6eval rakudo 185f8f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 4, near ""␤»
20:57 PerlJam btw, people occasionally come to #perl asking about #perl6.  This seems to be happening more often lately.
20:57 sisar huh, here it is line 4, but i locally get line 5
20:57 PerlJam Maybe that was the YAPC effect?
20:57 jnthn r: use v6;␤␤{␤
20:57 p6eval rakudo 185f8f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 5, near ""␤»
20:58 jnthn It looks on the last line for it :)
20:58 driador joined #perl6
20:58 sisar jnthn: hmm
20:58 PerlJam r: {
20:58 p6eval rakudo 185f8f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤»
20:59 tyatpi joined #perl6
20:59 pmichaud (YAPC effect) -- I've seen a number of blog posts from yapc::na attendees saying "hmmm, I need to take a / another look at Perl 6"  :-)
20:59 tadzik that's awesome :)
21:00 pmichaud I'm really hoping the yapcna youtube channel gets my lightning talk up soon :)
21:00 PerlJam pmichaud: What was your lightning talk about?
21:00 pmichaud I wonder if I can send a message saying "I'll make a donation to TPF if you do my lightning talk next :-)"
21:00 pmichaud PerlJam: rakudo speed improvement since 2011.01
21:01 PerlJam oh, that's right, you showed the timing here
21:02 * PerlJam enjoyed mdk's Perl and CPAN
21:02 masak pmichaud: ooh! please market it hard as "The YAPC effect", too! :D
21:03 masak "dude, did you hear about the YAPC effect? apparently YAPC makes people want to check out Perl 6!"
21:03 tadzik dude, did you hear about YAPC effect effect? Apparently YAPC effect makes people want to check out Perl 6!
21:03 PerlJam tadzik++
21:03 tadzik dude, did you hear about YAPC effect effect effect? AppaMaximum recursion depth exceeded
21:04 PerlJam masak: "YAPC effect" gives new meaning to "butterfly effect"  :)
21:05 masak PerlJam: only if checking out Perl 6 generates more YAPCs somehow and leads to a positive feedback gain, ending with a grey-goo situation.
21:06 sisar so i'm still trying to understand OOP both in general and in Perl6. I wrote this: https://gist.github.com/2991221, but it fails. Can someone explain? Also notice the wrong line no. in Rakudo's error.
21:06 * PerlJam waits for TEDx YAPC
21:06 jnthn More YAPCs wouldn't be a bad thing. :)
21:06 * jnthn waits for YAPC::Antarctic
21:06 jnthn That'd be so cool!
21:06 masak jnthn: only you would like it :)
21:06 tadzik http://www.myfacewhen.net/u​ploads/3890-oh-you-dog.jpg oh you
21:06 PerlJam sisar: you need to make your attrs rw if you want to change their values
21:07 jnthn masak: Oh come on...I can't be the ONLY person here who likes cold weather!
21:07 tadzik we didn't want to tell you
21:08 tadzik that reminds me of this old joke
21:08 masak :P
21:08 PerlJam (though that error message could give you some more hints as to the problem)
21:08 * PerlJam afk
21:08 pmichaud jnthn: I like cold weather... remember how I was enjoying Oslo in April?
21:08 sisar PerlJam: I thought 'attributes' are something like private variables. But I don't have any private variables there.
21:08 tadzik Boss to employee: "Do you like warm vodka?" "No" "How about sweaty women?" "No" "Great, then you get your vacation in december"
21:08 masak jnthn: you do know that all they eat at YAPC::Antarctic is variations on frozen fish?
21:09 jnthn Eww.
21:09 jnthn How sill-y.
21:09 masak :P
21:09 masak phenny: sv en "sill"?
21:09 phenny masak: "herring" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
21:09 tadzik :)
21:09 pmichaud cold would be nice.  38.8 degC here right now.
21:10 masak tadzik: there's something about that joke that feels like it could be improved. :)
21:10 tadzik masak: what is it?
21:10 masak tadzik: it doesn't quite have that shift-in-perspective at the end that a joke of that category has.
21:10 pmichaud oops, now 38.9 degC  :-)
21:10 tadzik hmm
21:10 masak I mean, it's surprising, but somehow not enough, or not in quite the right way.
21:10 jnthn tadzik: Vacation in December works. Go to where it's too darn hot the rest of the year. :)
21:11 jnthn Like Texas :P
21:11 masak I took a vacation in December last year :)
21:11 tadzik iirc there's 20 degrees celsius in Egypt in January
21:11 masak went before the tourist season too, so we had the beach mostly to ourselves.
21:11 tadzik both air and water temp
21:12 tadzik masak: maybe it loses something it translation, but it's still not the best of jokes I know
21:12 sisar um, can someone have a look at my gist a few line back. PerlJam told me somthing but he went afk before I could ask him something.
21:13 tadzik sisar: if you want to modify the attributes they need to be "is rw"'d
21:14 sisar tadzik:I thought 'attributes' are something like private variables. But I don't have any private variables there.
21:14 pmichaud 'attributes' are anything declared with 'has'
21:14 pmichaud an attribute declared with a dot gets a public accessor method
21:14 masak tadzik: it reminded me of this old joke. https://gist.github.com/2991296
21:14 bruges joined #perl6
21:14 pmichaud an attribute declared "is rw" gets a public accessor method that can modify the attribute
21:14 masak pmichaud: well, except that you can go 'has method', IIRC :)
21:16 tadzik masak: haha, nice one :)
21:16 sisar pmichaud: "$.d is rw" makes it public... that means other parts of the program can modify $d ?
21:17 pmichaud sisar: "$.d" makes it 'public', in the sense of being visible.
21:17 * sisar realizes he needs to understand OOP in general :|
21:17 pmichaud sisar:  "is rw" makes it publicly modifiable, in the sense of being assignable
21:18 masak sisar++ # curious in ways that help
21:18 pmichaud has $!d;   # $!d can only be accessed from within the methods of the class
21:19 pmichaud has $.d;   # creates $!d, but also creates a method 'd' that allows outsiders to obtain the value of $!d
21:19 pmichaud has $.d is rw;   # creates $!d, and also creates a method 'd' that allows outsiders to modify the value of $!d
21:19 tadzik maybe there's some material for the blog post, "OOP as Perl 6 encourages it"
21:20 pmichaud oops, gotta run for a bit
21:20 pmichaud afk
21:22 sisar tadzik: +100 to that. I would really appreciate it if someone wrote that. Unfortunately, masak++'s http://strangelyconsistent.o​rg/blog/june-27-2011-classes is very superficial.
21:22 sisar And http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Perl_6​_Programming/Classes_And_Attributes is kinda confusing, well atleast for me.
21:23 tadzik sisar: maybe that should just go into the Perl 6 Book
21:25 sisar tadzik: yeah I forgot to mention the Perl6 book, its Classes chapter is not newbie friendly. Given that it is not aimed towards newbies, that is acceptable.
21:27 masak still, we should maybe aim to make it more newbie friendly.
21:28 sisar masak: +1
21:30 kurahaupo joined #perl6
21:35 jnthn I guess there's a difference between being a Perl 6 newbie and an OOP newbie too
21:38 sisar oh, and the completely wrong line number in the gist. Should I file a bug report ? (After golfin it.)
21:39 jnthn Yeah
21:39 sisar will do
21:40 masak \o/
21:40 masak sisar: before I forget: it's nice to have you on board.
21:40 sisar :)
21:45 lue hello #perl6 o/
21:45 jnthn o/ lue
21:45 dalek nqp/toqast: 702c1b7 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
21:45 dalek nqp/toqast: Add a QAST::CompUnit, which will be involved in SC handling and a few other things we have one of per compilation unit.
21:45 dalek nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/702c1b7382
21:46 tadzik hey lue
21:48 masak rn: say "Hello, {"Life Universe Everything".words>>.substr(0,1).join.lc}!"
21:48 p6eval rakudo 185f8f, niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Hello, lue!␤»
21:48 lue :)
21:49 masak rn: say "Hello, {"Life, the Universe, and Everything".words>>.substr[0, 2, 4](0,1).join.lc}!"
21:49 p6eval niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No value for parameter '$start' in 'Cool.substr'␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (Cool.substr @ 1) ␤  at /tmp/EBwnWWmiJe line 1 (ANON @ 2) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3051 (hyperunary @ 66) ␤  at /h…
21:49 p6eval ..rakudo 185f8f: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected between 2 and 3␤  in method substr at src/gen/CORE.setting:3500␤  in method dispatch:<hyper> at src/gen/CORE.setting:872␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/n5xH9pdE_m:1␤␤»
21:49 masak oops. my bad.
21:49 masak rn: say "Hello, {"Life, the Universe, and Everything".words[0, 2, 4]>>.substr(0,1).join.lc}!"
21:49 p6eval rakudo 185f8f, niecza v18-10-g07900b5: OUTPUT«Hello, lue!␤»
21:55 Entonian joined #perl6
21:58 harmil I don't want to be pushy, but what can I do to get https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/71 merged?
21:59 masak harmil++ # reminder
22:00 ggoebel joined #perl6
22:00 jnthn I'm a bit uneasy about the we-know-it-won't-be-called DESTROY going in. The buffering bits look fine...have they been added or are they already in the spec, ooc?
22:01 * masak was gonna say the same about DESTROY
22:01 masak I'm a bit confused, also. the two commits look identical in what they change.
22:01 masak anyone else seeing this?
22:01 harmil masak: that's because of how I manage my repo
22:02 harmil It's a no-ff merge from my topic
22:02 harmil Once you pull it and do a git log —oneline —graph —decorate it will look sane
22:02 masak ok.
22:02 harmil About the specness of my changes
22:03 masak harmil: I believe a merge is fine. we don't have a policy against merge commits in Rakudo.
22:03 harmil no, it's not in the spec exactly that way. As someone pointed out, the spec for IO is still in need of some updating for the modern world. All I did in the meanwhile was to mock up what Parrot does with buffering
22:04 harmil However, flush is definitely in the spec as I did it (coincidentally)
22:04 jnthn harmil: That's fine...sometimes the implementations should lead the spec, and IO is one of those. Was just curious. :)
22:05 kurahaupo left #perl6
22:05 jnthn I'm a bit distracted right now, and about to go get some rest, but I can merge it in the morning (minus the DESTROY)
22:05 harmil If you feel like reverting the DESTROY addition before merging it in, I'm fine with that
22:05 jnthn OK
22:06 harmil Though, keep in mind that that means that any IO that sets full buffering without explicitly flushing before exit will throw away all of its work.
22:07 harmil Then again, that's the reality whether we have an impotent DESTROY method or not, right now.
22:08 tadzik do we pass the spectests after these changes?
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22:12 * pmichaud looks at pull request 71
22:12 jnthn Uh-oh :D
22:13 lichtkind joined #perl6
22:14 pmichaud I'd remove the Bool::True from method flush()
22:15 jnthn pmichaud: Why?
22:15 jnthn pmichaud: $!PIO is a Parrot object
22:16 lichtkind cabecon++
22:16 masak right. indecent exposure, no wait, that's not the right expression.
22:16 jnthn pmichaud: If we don't explicitly return something we risk leaking a Parrot thingy into Perl 6 space.
22:16 jnthn masak: We...haven't tended to call the problem that. :P
22:16 pmichaud jnthn: at least p6booleanize the return from the Parrot thingy
22:16 pmichaud but always returning True is... wrong.
22:17 masak ah, yes.
22:17 masak that's better.
22:17 pmichaud $!PIO.flush ought to be returning whether the flush succeeded or no.
22:17 jnthn Hm, unless it throws...in which case we need to catch it and turn it into a fail
22:18 pmichaud looking.
22:19 pmichaud It does throw.
22:19 pmichaud anyway, I'd prefer to see a p6booleanize of the return from $!PIO.flush().  We should at least acknowledge that flush can return something other than True.
22:19 pmichaud (whether it actually does or not.)
22:20 pmichaud we still don't have a good guideline for use of _ versus - in method names :-/
22:22 jnthn Time for some sleep, 'night o/
22:23 tadzik e.
22:23 tadzik o/
22:23 lichtkind \o
22:23 pmichaud harmil: I wonder if there's a better name than 'buffer_type'
22:27 masak the underscore indicates that it's low-level, no?
22:27 pmichaud masak: looking
22:28 pmichaud masak: yeah, that seems to fit.  In which case this should be buffer-type and not buffer_type
22:29 masak aye.
22:29 pmichaud I also wonder if buffertypes/adverbs should be arguments to open()
22:30 am0c joined #perl6
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22:43 masak 'night, #perl6
22:43 skids joined #perl6
22:45 pmichaud I'd like us (#perl6) to have a discussion about how to handle some of the more exploratory parts of the spec while still retaining a commitment to some sense of stability for users.
22:47 flussence_ joined #perl6
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23:16 harmil re: Bool::True  — I was just emulating other calls in IO
23:17 harmil I don't think flush returns non-true. I think it's either True or an exception, but I could be wrong (speaking of Parrot, here)
23:19 harmil pmichaud: yes, the buffer_type call is a direct Parrot mock-up. If you have a better name, it would be perfectly acceptable to re-name it (though I'm getting closer and closer to wanting an IO::Parrot from which Rakudo derives its IO and which non-Rakudo implementations replace with an exception-generating stub)…. just a thought
23:21 harmil Yeah, now that I actually say that, I can't think of a good reason it shouldn't be the case. It's kind of like having the POSIX library in Perl 5. You don't usually want POSIX::write semantics, but if you do, they're there...
23:21 harmil Would anyone be averse to an IO::Parrot?
23:22 pmichaud I think an IO::Parrot is an excellent idea.
23:23 pmichaud I have less concern about stability/deprecation for something that exists as IO::Parrot
23:23 pmichaud s/less/much less/
23:23 harmil yeah, that makes sense
23:24 harmil I have a hard time getting my head around the long-term implications of adding interfaces in the core. I know I should be cognizant of it, but that's not terribly easy for me.
23:24 pmichaud re: Bool::True -- yes, I looked at some of the other calls in IO and they're much the same (for better or worse).  So the pull request is at least consistent with the rest of IO in that respect.
23:24 pmichaud we all have a hard time with the longer-term implications. :-)
23:27 pmichaud I think I prefer buffer-mode or buffering-mode to buffer_type
23:27 Chillance joined #perl6
23:28 pmichaud Indeed, setvbuf talks about "mode" instead of "type", as does Perl 5's documentation on setvbuf
23:28 pmichaud "type" tends to be an overused noun; kind of like "user" and "data".
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23:44 diakopter phenny: ask moritz I'd love to see a histogram of weekly #perl6 activity (the number of messages in a given time slice (1hr? 15min?), averaged over the past N weeks, for the whole week).  Does your irclog db support such a thing?
23:44 phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
23:46 rhr joined #perl6
23:53 cxreg so, is there any effort so far to publish a set of common grammars for re-use?  like, for example, SQL
23:53 cxreg does that make sense?
23:56 tadzik sounds sensemaking to me
23:56 tadzik I think the best way would be to publish it as a module
23:56 tadzik as we have URI for example
23:56 cxreg yeah, i was just looking at that one
23:56 cxreg but rather than bundle it with code
23:56 cxreg just publish the grammars
23:57 cxreg (code too, but separately)
23:57 tadzik grammars are code :)

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