Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-07-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 benabik joined #perl6
00:03 thou does method DESTROY() work in nom? seems it's not getting called for me, and i just noticed that none of the modules in rakuod-star use it....
00:03 flussence nope
00:03 thou okay
00:03 flussence and I don't know a good way to emulate it either :(
00:04 flussence the general consensus seems to be that it's unimplementable in rakudo with the way current GC works
00:04 benabik There's been experiments in Parrot about running finalizers during GC runs, but it's not as simple as appears on first glance.
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00:16 thou thanks, it seems i should have picked up on this before, but ... that's how it is. :-)
00:21 thou hi, anyone have a moment to clear up my confusion about BUILD vs. new:  https://friendpaste.com/53MKnWboUIKj7JwCqIi6Ym
00:22 thou i think i'm calling self.bless() wrong, or ... something.
00:28 thou hmmm, i add a submethod BUILD(:$!stdscr) {} and it works
00:28 thou i thought that would be generated for me, even if method new() is defined explicitly
00:29 benabik I think you're generally supposed to define BUILD, not new.
00:39 thou benabik: thanks; i think generally, but afaik there's no way to do something like this without it:  https://friendpaste.com/53MKnWboUIKj7JwCqIi4tx    or am i missing the obvious?
00:40 benabik thou: I think the default new has a slurpy hash and passes all the args to BUILD.  So you can IIRC, basically remove the code from new to BUILD.
00:44 thou i thought for sure i'd tried that and gotten an error. but ... yes, you're right, it does work!
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01:03 thou ah, and found another typo, so now i've got it working with UTF-8.
01:04 thou pretty sloppy code at the moment, but it works :-)
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01:50 [Coke] p6: my %h = (1=>2, 3=>4); for keys %h { say $_ ; say $_.WHAT}
01:50 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c, niecza v19-13-g442e075: OUTPUT«1␤Str()␤3␤Str()␤»
01:52 [Coke] pugs: my %h = (1=>2, 3=>4); for keys %h { say $_ ; say $_.WHAT}
01:52 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«3␤Str␤1␤Str␤»
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03:08 thou https://github.com/softmoth/Term-Curses
03:12 benabik Term?  Curses!
03:28 [Coke] p: say 9160/22933
03:28 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«0.399424410238520908734138577595604587276␤»
03:28 [Coke] aaaaargh
03:29 benabik ?
03:29 [Coke] not quite 40%
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03:31 benabik Hm.  Looks like about 14 short.
03:31 [Coke] p: say 22933*.4-9160
03:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«13.2␤»
03:31 [Coke] good eye.
03:31 benabik I pulled up a calculator and started upping the number...
03:32 benabik Your way was smarter.  :-D
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03:50 * [Coke] finds one more file with 14 tests. yay.
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03:51 [Coke] p: say 9170/22933 # crap!
03:51 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«0.39986046308812628​09052457157807526272184␤»
03:51 patspam joined #perl6
03:51 * [Coke] must have miscounted.
04:13 [Coke] pugs: 9174/22933
04:13 p6eval pugs:  ( no output )
04:13 [Coke] pugs: 9174/22933.say
04:13 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«22933␤»
04:13 [Coke] pugs: say 9174/22933
04:13 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«0.40003488422796842​97736885710548118431954␤»
04:13 [Coke] there we go. as long as rakudo doesn't pass any more tests before noon eastern, I'm probably good. ;)
04:14 dalek roast: ec8593e | coke++ | integration/advent2009-day14.t:
04:14 dalek roast: Compare the type, not the stringified type.
04:14 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ec8593efa4
04:14 dalek roast: abc9cbd | coke++ | / (15 files):
04:14 dalek roast: pugs fudge
04:14 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/abc9cbd0b8
04:14 dalek Pugs.hs: 851241f | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
04:14 dalek Pugs.hs: run fudged tests
04:14 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/851241f9ce
04:15 * [Coke] is really scraping the barrel here on fudging vs. actually writing haskell.
04:16 [Coke] http://feather.perl6.nl/~coke/unrun - all the tests that pugs isn't running. the ones showing more than about 5 passes are all tricky to fudge.
04:40 [Coke] . o O (zzz)
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06:14 kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people
06:17 kresike `
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06:55 moritz \o
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07:02 moritz short backlog is short
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07:36 daxim rare interview with christopher tolkien:  http://sedulia.blogs.com/sedulias_tra​nslations/2012/07/was-first-felt.html
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08:01 diakopter hm
08:05 diakopter too much coffee today
08:09 masak bonan matenon, #perl6
08:09 kresike hello masak o/
08:10 masak hello, S-ro kresike.
08:10 masak phenny: eo en "S-ro kresike"?
08:10 phenny masak: "Mr. kresike" (eo to en, translate.google.com)
08:10 masak \o/
08:11 masak phenny: eo en "gesinjoroj!"?
08:11 phenny masak: "ladies and gentlemen !" (eo to en, translate.google.com)
08:11 kresike :)
08:11 masak \o/
08:11 kresike eo means esperanto, right ?
08:11 masak jes.
08:12 kresike masak, ooc, how many languages do you speak ?
08:12 masak I'm back from one week of teaching it, so I'm a bit, hm, soaked in it right now.
08:12 kresike human languages I mean ...
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08:13 masak kresike: Swedish, English, Esperanto fluently. French and German listening is rather good, but speaking is crap. I've studied but mostly forgotten Russian. I can talk to Italians and Spaniards thanks to Esperanto, but the communication is not perfect, of course. I can survive in China with my Mandarin.
08:14 masak oh, and I took one year of Latin, though I wouldn't say I speak it, nor write it. I can sometimes decipher Latin phrases.
08:15 kresike that's one hell of a list :)
08:15 masak most of us here are into languages :)
08:15 kresike yes, I noticed
08:16 masak I've listened to enough Norwegian to understand it fairly well. it's easier than the local Swedish dialect here. :) Danish is still hard, but possible.
08:16 * moritz should brush up his bokmål
08:16 masak many languages in Eastern Europe, including Polish, has that "uncanny valley" thing going with Russian, which in me triggers a constant fascination with them. I don't speak them, but I always try to learn new things about them.
08:16 masak I think my favorite among those is Slovenian.
08:17 masak at some point, I know I will tackle Estonian, Greek, Sanskrit, and Tibetan. I haven't yet, though.
08:17 GlitchMr Heh, that's long list
08:17 kresike masak, I thought you're belgian ... albeit some say there is no such thing :)
08:18 masak I was born in and still live in .se
08:18 kresike hmmm, my mistake
08:18 brrt .... who was the dude that was belgian
08:19 brrt the super-european guy
08:19 * masak .oO( does "super-european" mean "clamoring for a bigger Europe"? ) :P
08:20 GlitchMr I only know two languages
08:20 moritz .oO( Russian, rude Russian and very rude Russian )
08:21 GlitchMr I wonder how many people only know one language...
08:21 diakopter o/
08:21 moritz GlitchMr: too many
08:21 daxim sons, I am very disapoint… if you don't brush up your russian for yapc2013
08:22 masak :)
08:22 daxim пиво - beer
08:23 daxim Я очень рад, ведь я, наконец, возвращаюсь домой  -  ♪ Trololo ♫
08:23 bonsaikitten brrt: "super-european" ? what a nice way to put it
08:23 GlitchMr But, I think I know many programming languages... but I still cannot understand C++...
08:23 bonsaikitten I consider myself depatriated
08:23 diakopter masak: I thought you submitted a talk for yapc::eu - I don't see your name on the list of 56 accepted talks
08:23 bonsaikitten GlitchMr: no worries, most C++ coders can't either
08:23 GlitchMr It's... a mess
08:24 kresike GlitchMr, there's always perl* :)
08:25 GlitchMr I know :)
08:25 GlitchMr Perl is actually nice and readable* language
08:25 GlitchMr * if you write it properly
08:25 daxim the * is a fool's cap bell
08:25 * daxim jingles
08:26 GlitchMr PERL is unreadable, but Perl is readable
08:26 brrt bonsaikitten: you're welcome :-)
08:27 diakopter masak: I don't see any Perl 6 names on there actually, except fglock, but his talk is about p5 perlito
08:27 * brrt personally thinks european integration is by itself a very noble goal
08:27 brrt the implementation of which is messy
08:28 bonsaikitten brrt: no one wants integration...
08:28 moritz integration is harder than derivation
08:28 moritz bonsaikitten: but people want the benefits from integration
08:28 bonsaikitten moritz: only by a constant factor ;)
08:28 bonsaikitten moritz: yes, everyone wants benefits, but no one wants to pay for it
08:28 brrt moritz: much harder
08:29 brrt ... maybe my words are wrong
08:30 diakopter I was thinking of going to yapc::eu this year, but with no Perl 6 talks...
08:30 masak diakopter: I submitted four talks. I hope a proper subset of them get accepted.
08:31 masak diakopter: they have a "rolling schedule" of accepting talks, methinks.
08:31 daxim Acme::Inline::PERL     # on backpan
08:31 moritz diakopter: I submitted two, jnthn two, pmichaud one (afaict)
08:31 masak so they may simply not have gotten to it yet.
08:31 brrt whut no perl6 talks?
08:31 daxim masak has one
08:31 moritz brrt: not one approved yet
08:31 brrt ah that is too bad
08:31 diakopter masak: oh.
08:32 brrt i was planning on going but i have yet to find a cheap-and-fast way to travel to frankfurt
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08:34 BinGOs pigeon
08:34 moritz trebuchet
08:34 daxim if it's your first yapc, you can apply for funding through send-a-newbie
08:34 brrt it is my first in fact :-)
08:35 brrt well, i have google funds in principle
08:35 brrt but most of these will go to tuition
08:35 tadzik my last trip to yapc, which is my first one, was covered by gsoc funds as well
08:35 daxim what's google funds, specifically?
08:36 daxim ah, gsoc
08:36 dakkar joined #perl6
08:36 daxim tadzik, I meant to ask you how many people are participating in that farm game(?) competition.  I forgot all the details
08:37 masak curious.
08:37 masak we were just gearing up to PR the competition into existence :)
08:37 masak famr currently doesn't run on latest nom, according to tadzik :/
08:37 masak farm*
08:38 masak I will investigate during the day.
08:38 diakopter I count 21.6 hours of accepted talks
08:38 brrt surpisingly, bahn costs more if you take a slower train
08:38 masak diakopter: that doesn't say much since there may be N tracks.
08:39 kresike brrt, they probably charge the time you sat in their chair :)
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08:41 brrt it seems that way
08:41 tadzik fortunately it doesn't work for planes
08:41 tadzik I saved like 50% on flight costs for being fine with taking 4 flights instead of 2
08:41 tadzik I get twice the take-off excitement for half the price!
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08:44 brrt flying is nice, just so... wasteful
08:45 masak I can't imagine it'll last.
08:45 masak we live in a previous window of history.
08:45 masak precious*
08:45 masak the window of cheap international flight.
08:46 tadzik wasteful, money-wise?
08:46 moritz time and resource wise
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08:46 tadzik true
08:46 sorear I hope to see transatlantic rail travel within my lifetime
08:46 tadzik shame it's actually cheaper than trains
08:46 sorear that will be less wasteful
08:47 masak tadzik: there is only a finite amount of compressed organic carbon remains in the ground. we're burning it up faster every year. it'll run out in our lifetimes, more likely in a few decades. where "run out" is a gradual, difficult thing rather than a sudden shock, of course.
08:48 sorear hmm, I need to get back to Mattijsen
08:49 masak the two centuries around 1950 will be remembered in history as a crazy Bell curve of oil consumption.
08:49 masak sorear: you definitely do.
08:49 masak sorear: over here, she's known as "Liz", by the way :)
08:49 tadzik masak: yeah, I know
08:49 masak s/Bell/bell/
08:50 tadzik that's why it surprises me how trains manage to be so awfully expensive in comparison
08:51 moritz tadzik: maintenance of the railroad network
08:51 tadzik ah, that could be, yes
08:51 sorear masak: compressed organic matter is not the only way to run an airplane.
08:51 masak so if we made better tracks, it would all be cheaper?
08:52 brrt whats better?
08:52 masak sorear: indeed. solar airplanes are coming along.
08:52 sorear solar is problematic from a power/weight ratio
08:52 brrt you are going to have to lay down very long iron bars on a solid ground for many , many miles no matter how you do it
08:52 brrt hydrogen airplanes, that could work :-)
08:52 masak but with all the investing that goes into alternative power sources, I'm wondering if the totality of it isn't still "too little, too late" from a global energy needs perspective.
08:52 sorear I was thinking more in terms of synthetic fueled jet engines
08:53 sorear masak: the next few decades are going to be an interesting time
08:53 masak there are some alternative-energy deployment efforts that we should ideally start *right now*, even though technologies will improve before we're done deploying.
08:53 masak sorear: yeah :/
08:53 masak in the Chinese curse sense.
08:54 sorear once we get a bit further into the Hubbart downslope, deployment of non-oil energy sources is going to go way up
08:54 masak indubitably.
08:54 sorear and there will be a market shock far beyond my ability to predict the consequences of
08:54 masak aye.
08:54 masak almost seems what markets do is get shocked :P
08:55 bonsaikitten brrt: hydrogen is surprisingly bad
08:55 brrt ... yes, i've heard, now that i think  of it is pretty stupid
08:55 bonsaikitten generating methane or heavier hydrocarbons has higher energy density andbetter storage
08:55 brrt what about ethanol?
08:55 bonsaikitten e.g. hydrogen leaks, so you lose ~30% in transport
08:55 bonsaikitten the containers need to be heavy and pressurized
08:55 masak nuclear could possibly be made very clean and very safe.
08:55 masak it has a bad rep though, at least in these parts.
08:55 bonsaikitten masak: if there were no greed and corruption maybe
08:55 sorear hydrogen has problems, I'm not denying that
08:56 Timbus gen 4 nuclear reactors are just great
08:56 sorear ethanol has differentproblems
08:56 masak Timbus: url?
08:56 sorear masak: A nuclear reactor on a plane strikes me as very stupid
08:56 Timbus i uh,
08:56 * Timbus points at wikipedia i guess
08:56 Timbus sorry
08:56 sorear masak: weight constraints will force you to skimp on shielding, and what happens if the plane crashes?
08:57 masak Timbus: no problem.
08:57 lumi_ Re formatting slangs, there's Common Lisp's format
08:57 sorear masak: now, we can't just run wires up to the plane, which leaves two choices: 1. wireless power 2. synthetic ethanol/hydrogen/whatever is fashionable in 20 years
08:57 masak sorear: I wasn't talking about planes in particular, just the energy demand problem.
08:57 masak lumi_: url?
08:58 sorear note that beaming the 100MW or so a plane needs up to the plane as focused microwaves is not a walk in the park either
09:00 lumi_ masak:  http://www.lispworks.com/docume​ntation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
09:01 masak sorear: I've always wondered about that. Tesla liked the idea. it seems rife with problems to me. I wouldn't like to be a bird in-between, for one.
09:01 * masak looks
09:01 masak lumi_: um, it's just *another* string format. which is interesting, but doesn't solve the problem at hand.
09:02 sorear masak: I had a friend once who was a US Navy radar operator.  They do in fact kill birds.
09:02 masak sorear: aye.
09:02 sorear (I asked)
09:02 masak sorear: I have a friend who told me about a crisply toasted seagull that had to be pried off the radar.
09:03 diakopter fried then pried. then pied.
09:03 sorear hmm, wikipedia page for the A380 does _not_ list total engine power consumption
09:03 sorear I was able to find the energy content of a full A380 tank though (10.5 TJ)
09:04 sorear but the cruise range is listed in km, not s
09:04 sorear *sigh*
09:04 lumi_ masak: http://okmij.org/ftp/typed-formatting/index.html then?
09:06 sorear mjultiplying the 'maximum operating speed' by the 'total engine thrust' gets 336 MW
09:06 sorear which is a very questionable calculation, but meh
09:06 Timbus http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?​i=A380+Range+%2F+A380+cruise+speed
09:07 masak lumi_: yeah, that's more like it :)
09:07 Timbus :3
09:07 sorear Timbus: very questionable also, since the range includes takeoff fuel consumptin
09:08 lumi_ masak: I think that could look much nicer in modern Haskell, with overloaded strings, so it won't require 'lit's
09:09 sorear lifting 560,000 kg of aluminum to cruising altitude (which incidentally is also not listed) requires energy
09:10 sorear given g = 10, h = 1e4 -> 56 GJ
09:12 sorear Timbus' calculation gets 179 GW, which is close enough to mine to feel better about both
09:12 sorear 179 MW I mean
09:14 Timbus we're gunna need a bigger solar panel...
09:14 kresike or an antigrav field generator :)
09:15 * masak was gonna say "there is no free lunch", but the truth is probably that we humans are tapping the universe in very awkward ways still
09:15 sorear alternate proposal
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09:15 sergot hi o/
09:16 masak sergocie! \o/
09:16 sergot masaku \o/
09:16 sergot ! :)
09:16 sorear use a very large linear motor with on-site power generation to boost a magnetically levitated train onto a suborbital elliptical path to the destination
09:16 sorear no transatlantic tracks needed
09:18 kresike masak, we (humans) need to learn physics.
09:18 sorear masak: the funny thing is that people talk about using energy when energy cannot be consumed.
09:19 sorear I do not beleive there is any fundamental limit on the entropy requirement of moving objects
09:19 sorear (which isn't necessarily saying much, the only fundamental entropy bound I know of is the one on irreversable computation)
09:20 masak sorear: everyday use of physics terminology is just rife with similar mis-applications of concepts. that's what you get when non-experts get to use very specific language.
09:20 brrt sorear: entropy is the limit on free energy, which can be consumed
09:20 brrt which you know of course, its just
09:20 masak I'm actually more peeved by the whole new-age use of "energy", and the fact that I bought into it even a little for a few years.
09:20 brrt its not so silly a discussion if you put 'free' in front of every 'energy' :-)
09:23 sorear if you put an identical linear motor on the other end run as a generator, and both were 100% efficient, and there were no air in the way, the entire process would occur with no usage of free energy.
09:25 sorear one interesting thing about high-speed rail is that it actually uses more fuel than planes, because there's so much more air.
09:25 sorear I want to see development of evacuated subways
09:27 * jnthn imagines evacuating them, keeping them that way, and dealing with the resulting safety issues isn't particularly cheap.
09:27 sorear yeah :|
09:28 sorear life in the present is so full of annoying tradeoffs.
09:28 brrt or, we just keep where we are for the most part
09:28 brrt and communicate by sending electrons / photons
09:29 jnthn Or just be patient and wait for the next super-continent to form. Then there won't be this inter-continental travel problem. :P
09:29 sorear NEUTRINOS
09:30 masak sorear: heh, "life in the present". our top priority should be to get out of this gravity well and populate another heavenly body.
09:31 brrt liveable versions of which, are ample
09:31 sorear masak: Much as I support the goal of space colonization it won't solve the problem of there only being so many seconds in a kilosecond.
09:31 sorear "although it may increase the number of seconds in a day"
09:31 * masak .oO( 1000 )
09:32 sorear brrt: I know!  Isn't it amazing!
09:32 masak sorear: the problem of never being bored is not such a bad one, relatively speaking.
09:32 brrt :-)
09:32 brrt its just sad
09:32 brrt we have such a beautiful living planet
09:32 brrt and for our own hunger
09:32 brrt we burn it
09:34 sorear I rather think that the biosphere will surive global warming
09:34 masak oh, sure.
09:35 masak but "survive" != "it'll be fun".
09:35 masak for humans, specifically.
09:36 sorear it already hasn't been, at least if you assume that things like the Ethiopian droughts and crop failures of the 90s were related
09:37 sorear we are in the middle of a mass extinction now, they're never fun
09:37 masak *nod*
09:38 brrt global warming is not really the issue
09:38 brrt hunger will be
09:38 masak overpopulation.
09:38 masak unequal distribution of resources.
09:39 sorear I am not convinced overpopulation will necessarily be a problem in the medium-long term
09:40 brrt overpopulation combined with the ability to literally use all resources you can think of
09:40 brrt that is dangerous
09:40 sorear there is a lot of uncertainty in demographic projections.
09:41 sorear what will happen to India's birthrate once their per capita GDP reaches European levels?
09:42 sorear at least global warming theory only requires the physical sciences
09:42 sorear and even that's hard enough
09:42 masak if you educate women, birth rate drops. that's generalizing, of course, but it seems to hold up.
09:43 sorear and then there are questions about the questions
09:44 sorear _will_ India's per capita real GDP eventually reach European levels, or is the general upward trend we're seeing now entirely an artefact of cheap oil?
09:46 brrt whats european levels to start
09:46 brrt the differences between european countries are pretty sizable
09:47 sorear the level where birthrates start to go below 2
09:47 sorear here's another one for you.
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09:48 sorear there have, AFAIK, been no fundamentally new antibiotics discovered in the last N years, where N is suprisingly large
09:48 sorear will evolution of multidrug-resistant bacteria cap human populations at a level low enough for food to be a complete non-issue?
09:48 brrt no
09:48 brrt because even though infections are an important cause of death
09:49 brrt the amount of 'young people' dying from infections is low
09:49 sorear *now*
09:49 brrt hygiene is much more important
09:50 sorear the Spanish flu had the highest mortality rate for people in their twenties, even accounting for the differences in infection rates
09:50 sorear ok, that's not a bacterium
09:50 masak I'm concerned about multidrup-resistant bacteria, too. that one is a losing battle for humans.
09:50 sorear hygiene will help.  will it be enough?
09:50 brrt no, and in the immunologicial specificities of the flu infection, its not even that weird
09:51 brrt i believe death rates will be higher
09:52 masak I hear people in southern Europe are buying antibiotics and eating them almost for preventive purposes. educating about proper antibiotics usage might help, or at least delay the inevitable.
09:53 jnthn Whoa.
09:53 masak everytime I see a new antibacterial cleaning fluid in commercials, I get a little angry. this happens every few years.
09:53 * jnthn tends to only take such things if he really needs them
09:53 masak that's the proper usage, yes.
09:53 jnthn And when I do I'm like, "damn, I hate having to take these"
09:53 masak listen to the word. it *kills life* in your body.
09:53 jnthn Normally because they're incompatible with things I like. :)
09:54 masak if you take them regularly, your body will only contain the outlaws that have evolved to take that kind of beating.
09:54 masak Darwin called, and he's peeved too.
09:54 brrt you need antibiotics when you have some sort of internal infection, otherwise, you don't
09:54 masak right.
09:55 brrt a bigger problem that southern-european-pill-poppers is probably bio-industrial farmers with the same behavior
09:55 moritz and even then you only need it in some cases
09:56 brrt abcesses, bladder infections
09:56 brrt most respitory infections are viral so they can't be helped
09:58 sorear "we can fix that one by just eliminating meat production"
09:59 brrt we can fix most things by eliminitaing meat production
09:59 masak I sigh and weep for the GM industry. GM grains and stuff is actually not such a bad idea in theory, but the players on the market are ruthless and essentially ready to kill to establish themselves.
09:59 brrt most problems of overpopulation
10:01 moritz there are other ways to fix overpopulation problems...
10:01 brrt as friendly as not eating meat?
10:01 moritz no, not as friendly.
10:03 masak overpopulation will "fix" itself. we probably want to have some say in the solutions chosen, though.
10:06 gfldex i vote for space exploration
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10:49 teee Could Panda(Perl6) run on Win32? I could'nt install any module with it...
10:50 tadzik do you get any particular error?
10:51 tadzik panda is reported to work on windowses, but none of the main developers work on windows I think
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12:16 brrt r: pir::load_language("nqp");
12:16 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«"load_language" couldn't find a compiler module for the language 'nqp'␤  in block <anon> at /tmp/IS17AgIUzL:1␤␤»
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12:23 arnsholt jnthn: ping?
12:28 [Coke] see au?
12:28 [Coke] aloha: seen au
12:28 aloha [Coke]: au was last seen in #perl6 1 days ago joining the channel.
12:28 [Coke] ooh, sneaky!
12:32 * [Coke] pastes au's sig from the pugs readme into google translate, clicks "play", and hears his wife's maiden name. (Coke then realizes that he's translated Audrey into *polish*, and asked for /that/ pronounciation, which is probably not what he intended.)
12:35 masak otori tan.
12:37 daxim detect fail.  text says correctly feng, audio says otori
12:38 masak I'm not surprised.
12:38 masak (au had a post once about how some Japanese Perlers rendered her name as 'otori-tan', which reminded her about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-tan )
12:38 [Coke] polish Feng sounded like english "Fink" to me.
12:39 [Coke] just reading http://pugs.blogs.com/audrey/2009/04/post.html, aye.
12:39 jnthn arnsholt: pong
12:40 au o/
12:40 phenny au: 06 Jul 17:13Z <[Coke]> tell au - come back to pugs, we miss you. ;)
12:40 au I guess the first step is to port everything to mtl-2.*, otherwise it won't even build on this rMBP ;)
12:40 au (+latest haskell platform)
12:42 lue joined #perl6
12:42 arnsholt jnthn: Pointers to PMCs can change over time, right?
12:43 dalek Pugs.hs: 8dd7fa4 | au++ | pugs-DrIFT/pugs-DrIFT.cabal:
12:43 dalek Pugs.hs: * Get pugs-DrIFT on mtl>=2.
12:43 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/8dd7fa4aa0
12:43 daxim [Coke], any junior jobs?  I could perhaps delegate to some haskell beginners at the local lambdaheads group
12:44 masak au! \o/
12:44 au 👽/
12:44 [Coke] daxim: A good place to start is perhaps: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues?dir​ection=desc&amp;sort=created&amp;state=open
12:44 masak .u 👽
12:44 phenny U+1F47D (No name found)
12:44 jnthn arnsholt: No, the GC doesn't move objects.
12:44 arnsholt Oh, excellent
12:45 masak oh, EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIEN :)
12:45 au :D
12:45 * masak hugs au :)
12:45 jnthn arnsholt: It can't, it's conservative.
12:46 * [Coke] successfully adds Complex.Complex() to pugs. yay.
12:46 * au pugs a pugged pugs :)
12:47 arnsholt jnthn: Right, that's one of those things I know means something related to GCs, but I'm not sure what =)
12:47 dalek Pugs.hs: 3b5a25d | au++ | pugs-compat/pugs-compat.cabal:
12:47 dalek Pugs.hs: * Bring pugs-compat to mtl>=2
12:47 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/3b5a25d6cf
12:50 * [Coke] is not used to having to rebase with another pugs committer! o/
12:50 * [Coke] makes sure his new thing still works with au's commits.
12:51 arnsholt Anyways, I think I'll try to use a hash table to store pairs of sub PMCs and callback data, so that we don't leak memory all over the place
12:51 masak [Coke]++ # rebasing
12:51 dalek Pugs.hs: 82ede96 | au++ | / (4 files):
12:51 dalek Pugs.hs: * Upgrade everything to mtl2.
12:51 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/82ede96cb8
12:52 [Coke] ... ok I'll just wait a minute. ;)
12:52 au I'll let you know when done ;)
12:52 [Coke] au: pugs will, as of today, be really close to the 40% mark of rakudo in terms of passing spectests.
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12:53 arnsholt And since I'm not sure if Parrot's hash tables want to store bare C-land data I might end up implementing my own hash tables, in which case using the PMC pointer adresses as keys might be convenient
12:53 jnthn arnsholt: Mostly it means that it doesn't always know where all of the pointers to things are, or what things are or aren't pointers. But that's OK - you only have to find one pointer to at least all of the living things :)
12:53 [Coke] I suspect with someone who knows the code base, that could go up pretty quickly.
12:53 jnthn arnsholt: Well, another way is to use the Pointer PMC
12:53 jnthn arnsholt: Then you can use the Parrot-y hash tables.
12:53 [Coke] au++ - most of that 40% is just me fudging tests.
12:53 jnthn arnsholt: A Pointer PMC lets you hang any data you want off it.
12:53 arnsholt Parroty hash tables would be nice
12:54 arnsholt The less stuff I have to implement the better
12:54 jnthn Yes, I'd rather we don't have our own hash table implementation too :)
12:56 [Coke] ah, crap. my Complex addition doesn't work anyway, as it's breaking some other use of Complex elsewhere.
12:56 * [Coke] backs it out and opens a ticket. :P
12:57 PacoAir joined #perl6
12:58 * au decides to switch to the experimental "cabal install -j" branch
12:58 atrodo joined #perl6
13:00 * [Coke] notes that you don't have to worry about me on Pugs.hs master.
13:00 * [Coke] wants you to commit more, not less. ;)
13:01 [Coke] https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/17 in case au, masak, or moritz get bored. First step in getting us a few hundred more tests.
13:03 masak [Coke]++
13:03 timotimo what's the strength of pugs? it doesn't seem like it's "amount of features"
13:03 dalek Pugs.hs: d95d83a | au++ | Pugs/src/Pugs/Cont.hs:
13:03 dalek Pugs.hs: * mtl2 compat.
13:03 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/d95d83a6db
13:03 dalek Pugs.hs: abcaf74 | au++ | Pugs/Pugs.cabal:
13:03 dalek Pugs.hs: * Allow building without Perl5 embedding.
13:03 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/abcaf74b2f
13:04 au timotimo: "amount of tolkien poetry"
13:04 [Coke] au++
13:04 [Coke] timotimo: first to market
13:04 [Coke] seriously, though, it's pretty fast.
13:05 moritz and it did used to be the one compiler that that supported most features
13:05 [Coke] moritz: AND IT WILL BE AGAIN! MUAHAHAHAHA
13:05 timotimo that's pretty cool in that case :)
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13:06 au [Coke]: think I'm done committing to master for now
13:06 au compiling works; linking still doesn't work, but I suspect it's a clang issue... will work it out during commuting.
13:06 [Coke] au: thanks for the commits!
13:07 au glad to help! clean compilation is now sub-two-minutes
13:07 au should be sub-30-seconds with cabal-install -j
13:07 au that's... quite refreshing :)
13:10 dalek Pugs.hs: a879f45 | au++ | Pugs/Pugs.cabal:
13:10 dalek Pugs.hs: * Bump cabal version.
13:10 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/a879f4583a
13:11 au commute &
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13:27 dalek Pugs.hs: 3a3bb78 | au++ | Pugs/Configure.PL:
13:27 dalek Pugs.hs: * Always prefer system perl with embedding Perl5 on OSX.
13:27 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/3a3bb7830a
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13:33 dalek Pugs.hs: e7ce2ab | au++ | t/fudgeandrun:
13:33 dalek Pugs.hs: * en_US.ISO-8859-1 doesn't exist on OSX, so use "C".
13:33 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/e7ce2ab2ef
13:33 geekosaur ...s/-//
13:35 dalek Pugs.hs: 2ffbe10 | au++ | t/fudgeandrun:
13:35 dalek Pugs.hs: * < geekosaur> ...s/-//
13:35 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/2ffbe102fa
13:36 geekosaur :)
13:38 au geekosaur++
13:39 au t/run_spectests # Tests=14178, 190 wallclock secs
13:39 tadzik woow
13:40 masak o.O
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13:42 au with test_jobs=8... # Tests=14178, 60 wallclo[Dck secs
13:44 masak wait... that was *without* test_jobs=8? o.O
13:44 * masak reels
13:46 tadzik impossibru
13:46 tadzik I have to try that
13:48 kresike bye all
13:48 tadzik bye bye
13:50 [Coke] now, pugs is only passing 2/5ths of the tests... but still. ;)
13:51 [Coke] (2/5 of rakudo, not 2/5 of 14178)
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13:51 [Coke] au++
13:52 masak au++
13:52 tadzik au++ indeed
13:52 [Coke] au - that setting was finicky before - we'll see if it does any harm to the daily run.
13:52 [Coke] (on feather, from inside cron)
13:52 au k
13:53 * [Coke] reads the patch and sees it'll be really hard for that to break feather. ;)
13:53 au indeed :)
13:54 [Coke] au++
13:54 gdonald joined #perl6
13:55 au ghc++ actually # and intel++ too, I guess
13:55 masak ghc++
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14:18 dalek Pugs.hs: 2877e1d | au++ | Pugs/src/Pugs/Prim.hs:
14:18 dalek Pugs.hs: * Implement .Complex for #17
14:18 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/2877e1d365
14:19 [Coke] YAY!
14:19 [Coke] au++ ;)
14:20 [Coke] I encourage you to run t/spec/S32-trig/cos.t and see what else fails. ;)
14:21 [Coke] ah. my naive version left off the other types in the last block, because "I only want it for .Complex". whoops.
14:29 lue joined #perl6
14:34 dalek roast: 3bb074f | coke++ | S03-operators/precedence.t:
14:34 dalek roast: pugs unfudge
14:34 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3bb074f796
14:56 masak Guido will talk about Python 3 in Amsterdam tomorrow. http://uvaguido.eventbrite.com/
14:57 hoelzro I think my skin would start to smolder if I got within 100m of him
14:57 hoelzro interestingly enough, that's not too far from my apartment
14:58 moritz hoelzro: hm, why? I don't love python, but I'd visit such a talk if I got near it by chance
14:59 xinming joined #perl6
14:59 jnthn "Learn how not to be a troll!" :D
14:59 masak moritz: +1
14:59 brrt yeah, moritz beat me to it, as usual
14:59 * jnthn suspects hearing any designer of a widely used langauge speak about it would be interesting.
14:59 hoelzro moritz: because I'm Perl to the core =)
14:59 jnthn Whatever you think of the langauge itself.
15:00 hoelzro I make the smoldering comment jokingly =)
15:00 jnthn :-)
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15:00 brrt i'd love to hear from the guy who made php
15:00 brrt what he thinks
15:01 brrt rasmussen i believe?
15:01 tadzik array_map($array, $callback) vs array_filter($callback, $array)
15:01 brrt stuff like that
15:01 tadzik rasmus-something?
15:01 tadzik yeah
15:01 flussence htmlspecialchars()!
15:01 brrt if anyone has an idea about well, messy software, its that guy
15:01 masak Rasmus Lerdorf
15:02 daxim he doesn't care.  watch the 2012 talk
15:02 brrt srsly
15:02 brrt ? :-o
15:02 daxim worse is better, dontchaknow.
15:02 brrt not to a fault
15:03 brrt worse is better as long as it is 'good enough'
15:03 brrt but the space in which php is 'good enough' is not so large
15:03 brrt and economically speaking, it is shrinking
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15:44 [Coke] au: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/18, which I again stumble over edge cases with.
15:44 * [Coke] rants that the trg tests need OO and "bless" in order to work.
15:44 [Coke] s/trg/trig/
15:46 hoelzro I think I actually have a commit in that repo!
15:46 moritz it has inherited many commits from the old pugs svn repo
15:47 hoelzro apparently mine didn't make it =(
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15:48 moritz hoelzro: probably because the source file you touched was modified, and then didn't survive the filtering into the new repo
15:49 moritz hoelzro: but not all commits that wander are lost: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b4b​8eabb6e6f6747ef37705644abd8e36c9cefee
15:52 hoelzro victory!
15:52 moritz and also 59f6d2c291dcd44ec88ee6ab5d058919e3c65f94 (tests)
15:53 [Coke] hoelzro: fresher commits are, of course, welcome. ;)
15:54 hoelzro hehe
15:54 hoelzro we'll see when I get the time =)
15:54 hoelzro I have a list of things I'd like to do
15:54 hoelzro first I need to finish my bot
15:54 * [Coke] wonders how evil it would be to make pugs's .FatRat just return a Rat for now.
15:54 moritz is pugs' rat fat?
15:55 [Coke] pugs: say sqrt(123.14124124124124124).Rat
15:55 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«11.0969023263810537​827112057129852473735809␤»
15:55 [Coke] rakudo: say sqrt(123.14124124124124124).Rat
15:55 moritz pugs: say sqrt(123.14124124124124124).Rat.perl
15:55 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«11.096903␤»
15:55 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«6247000647757063/562949953421312␤»
15:55 moritz pugs: say (sqrt(123.14124124124124124).Rat  ** 8).perl
15:55 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«231938266977210965638290221296581673​6317420595048961834512373182489853409320490​6739445786974995022751723802776725128217156​19521/1008691358627698667834343426563676513​4100413253239154346994763111486904773503285​916522052161250538404046496765518544896␤»
15:55 moritz looks fat, yes :-)
15:55 [Coke] that's pretty fat. ;)
15:55 dalek Pugs.hs: b1f0f20 | au++ | Pugs/src/Pugs/Prim.hs:
15:55 dalek Pugs.hs: * .Str for #18
15:55 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/b1f0f2062b
15:55 [Coke] ok.
15:55 [Coke] whoa!
15:56 moritz pugs: say 100869135862769866783434342656367651341004​132532391543469947631114869047735032859165​22052161250538404046496765518544896.log(2)
15:56 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No compatible multi variant found: "&log"␤    at /tmp/E_2y74roNw line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
15:56 [Coke] crap, I better open a LOT of tickets today. ;)
15:56 moritz r: say 100869135862769866783434342656367651341004​132532391543469947631114869047735032859165​22052161250538404046496765518544896.log(2)
15:56 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«392␤»
15:57 * [Coke] wonders how often p6eval rebuilds pugs.
15:57 * moritz wonders too
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16:05 masak today's mini-challenge: I have a list of <h2> and <h3> tags. what's the nicest/quickest/cleanest way to get a DOM of correctly nested <ul> and <li> tags representing an index of these?
16:05 moritz masak: I have a deja-vu
16:06 masak I asked a similar question the other day.
16:06 masak but not the same one.
16:06 moritz masak: I asked a similar question the other day
16:06 moritz and we discussed lagging pointers :-)
16:06 masak yes, that was the similar question.
16:06 dalek roast: f3096ce | coke++ | S32-num/stringify.t:
16:06 dalek roast: pugs unfudge
16:06 dalek roast:
16:06 dalek roast: au++
16:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f3096ce84c
16:06 [Coke] masak: is jQuery allowed? ;)
16:06 masak oh! that's what you wanted to do :)
16:07 masak [Coke]: I'm using Perl, but whatever floats your boat.
16:07 masak just thinking of a nice algorithm for this.
16:07 masak yes, maybe lagging variables are the answer :/
16:07 moritz masak: no, I wanted to group successive <li>-eleemnts in a common <ul>...</ul> frame
16:07 masak though thinking about it now, it feels like lagging variables seem like the answer because the question is posed too procedurally.
16:08 masak moritz: well, that's basically a subproblem of my problem. or could be, at least.
16:09 masak hm, probably I should just isolate each <h3> and the contents under it. then solve nestedly for <h2>...
16:09 moritz masak: https://github.com/perl6/doc​/blob/master/htmlify.pl#L103 is what I wrote for extracting pod subsections
16:09 moritz another very similar thing
16:09 moritz and https://github.com/perl6/doc​/blob/master/htmlify.pl#L80 to call it
16:11 masak moritz: Haskell has a "chunks-grep", but with another name.
16:11 masak maybe they called it "group" or something.
16:12 _ilbot joined #perl6
16:12 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
16:14 masak er, I meant the other way with <h2> and <h3> above... :)
16:14 moritz I just assumed you meant the right thing :-)
16:17 [Coke] masak: can we assume that the h2's and h3's are siblings?
16:18 [Coke] ah, not necessary.
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16:21 dalek rakudo/toqast: 5c96d7d | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
16:21 dalek rakudo/toqast: Fix CATCH blocks that also did smart-matching. This also unbusts Test::Util, which wins back quite a lot of tests too.
16:21 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5c96d7da7e
16:21 masak [Coke]: you can assume that they've been extracted and that you're only seeing a stream of <h2> and <h3>
16:30 [Coke] masak: http://feather.perl6.nl/~coke/foo.html
16:31 [Coke] that pulls out the h2, h3, and then loops over them, making a list of the ordered h2 elements (just saving the inner html), and an object of h2s -> child h3s.
16:31 [Coke] which could then be converted to a ul/li (but isn't)
16:33 masak [Coke]: cool.
16:33 masak clearly leverages the DOM a bit, too.
16:33 masak probably better than thinking of it as just text.
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16:36 [Coke] well, the only dom going on there is just $("h2,h3"), and it sounds like you've done that
16:40 daxim joined #perl6
16:41 masak [Coke]: no, I actually iterated on the lines of the HTML. I knew what generated it, so I could assume headings were all on one line.
16:43 nodmonkey joined #perl6
16:44 masak &
16:46 flussence when in doubt, cheat :)  http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/curr​ent-work/multipage/sections.html#outlines
16:49 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
16:50 moritz [Coke]: could you please invoke your planetsix-superpowers and add http://perl6maven.com/atom to the feed?
16:50 prettyrobots joined #perl6
16:50 moritz [Coke]: that's by szabgab++
16:55 [Coke] done.
16:55 moritz [Coke]++
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16:57 daxim what kind of lame power is heart^Wadding feeds, anyway?
16:59 moritz daxim: Wielder Of 300 Visitors Per Post power, or so
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17:09 dalek nqp/toqast: b4a78bf | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
17:09 dalek nqp/toqast: Fix various bits of bustage in loop construct code-gen.
17:09 dalek nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b4a78bfdfa
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: 49cd752 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: Fix xor and ^^.
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/49cd7521d1
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: 2a2a1d0 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: Thinko.
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2a2a1d023f
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: e88fe15 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: Somewhat fix %_ and @_.
17:09 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e88fe15fbe
17:10 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
17:19 [Coke] hurm. one of the pugs tests hung during the daily smoke.
17:21 [Coke] bah. another one, looks like they're going to 100% CPU, and then just sitting there.
17:24 sorear good * #perl6
17:25 moritz \o sorear
17:25 fgomez joined #perl6
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17:33 jnthn o/ sorear
17:33 colomon \p\o
17:33 masak sorear! \o/
17:34 moritz lol I blo^Wranted: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl​-6/2012-stop-the-rewrites.html
17:35 geekosaur indeed
17:36 * geekosaur does wonder if that's a misapplication of a "don't do rewrites like crap managers do dilbert-esque reorgs"
17:36 jnthn Really? People are *still* whining about the nom do-over? :/
17:37 diakopter "but you should've gotten it right the first time"
17:37 [Coke] just like HTML did!
17:37 moritz indeed we should have. And we should all be riding supersonic, organic Unicorn ponies for transport.
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: 1036e02 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Grammar.pm:
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: Catch remaining PAST -> QAST in Grammar.
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1036e02727
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: cd31481 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: Fix our $*x
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cd31481e7f
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: fe13b09 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/World.pm:
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: Update module loading load dependency handling.
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fe13b09d6b
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: efeba05 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: Fix try in the case where there's no CATCH block already in there.
17:38 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/efeba05ad2
17:42 jnthn It's also worth point out that bs was delivered with zero spectest regressions. qbootstrap and altnfa were delivered with no spectest regressions OR module space regressions. The post-nom Rakudo is living up quite well to being a good base to evolve things without huge ongoing upheavel.
17:42 jnthn *pointing
17:44 [Coke] there's no point in worrying about nom at this point. we can worry about it if we have to do a nom-like rewrite later and how to plan for that.
17:46 masak I'm not whining about the nom do-over. but it *did* have regressions, even though it was meant to be a rather easier transition than alpha->ng. I'm less interested in talking about blame than in making sure it doesn't happen again.
17:46 * masak now reads moritz' post
17:46 moritz jnthn: I'll add a note or two
17:47 flussence as an end user I find parrot's flakiness causes me more headaches than the alpha→nom→etc.
17:48 masak ah. simple, straightforward post about something I already agree with. moritz++
17:48 jnthn flussence: heh, same as a developer :P
17:49 jnthn Parrot doesn't do bad in terms of not falling in a heap these days though.
17:49 flussence nom *did* break some of my code, but that was because I was playing around with nativecall at the time :)
17:49 masak I also think rewrites are necessary. and maybe regressions are necessary too. regressions will be less and less tolerated as Perl 6 matures, in the sense that having them will seriously turn production users off in a bad way.
17:49 masak which means that we should rewrite all we can while we can :)
17:50 flussence .oO( hasn't mozilla rewritten its JS VM at least 4 times in recent memory? )
17:50 sjohnson i believe so
17:51 [Coke] flussence: but how much of that caused user rewrites?
17:51 seldon Javascript users are historically used to incompatibilities, though.
17:52 GlitchMr JavaScript incompatibilities?
17:52 GlitchMr I through that DOM is main problem
17:53 jnthn flussence: Well, NativeCall also changed quite a bit too :)
17:53 diakopter there are plenty of JS engine quirks
17:54 GlitchMr I know that there are problem with edge case in .split() function. Anything else?
17:54 GlitchMr are edge cases*
17:54 flussence jnthn: that was well worth rewriting everything, considering how much nicer my code is afterwards :)
17:54 diakopter GC differences
17:54 jnthn flussence: :)
17:56 vmspb joined #perl6
17:56 * [Coke] gets a lot of perl5/6 hate on another chat server.
17:57 GlitchMr But most of those edge cases are like (?!(a)) so whatever
17:57 seldon GlitchMr: == and != changed their meanings between 1.2 and 1.3. Also changed there: var arr = new Array(10); -- in 1.2, array with arr[0] = 10, from 1.3 on an array with 10 elements. Don't ask me for a comprehensive list; I'm not a webdesigner.
17:58 GlitchMr 1.2 and 1.3 are very old JS versions
17:58 GlitchMr Nobody uses Netspace 4 anymore
17:58 GlitchMr Netscape*
17:59 GlitchMr Also, in very old JS versions if (a = b) {} was actually if (a == b) {}, but well...
17:59 moritz jnthn: btw it's not quite true that bs didn't cause fallout
18:01 GlitchMr Also, I'm not aware of "changing meanings"
18:01 GlitchMr I know that they have put === operator, but have they changed meaning of == operator?
18:01 diakopter in JQuery there are several workarounds for various browsers to release memory in different cases. Also, there is detection/workaround of a Chrome over-optimization of recursive functions
18:01 seldon == behaved like === originally. Your browser might have varied, though.
18:02 seldon wild west days.
18:02 jnthn moritz: I said no spectestregressions. :)
18:02 moritz jnthn: ah, right
18:02 jnthn moritz: I distinguished it from altnfa/qbootstrap which additionally had no module space regressions.
18:02 jnthn moritz: I wish we'd had Emmentaller for bs.
18:03 jnthn I'm certainly glad we'll have it for toqast :)
18:03 masak I wish we'd had Emmentaler for alpha :)
18:03 moritz well, both ng and nom implemented pretty drastic spec hanges too
18:03 moritz *changes
18:04 GlitchMr "In JavaScript 1.2, == and != operators (equality operators) performed this strict equality comparison. But, to comply with ECMA, in JavaScript 1.3, the equality operators have changed, and two new strict equality operators have been added. These new operators are not part of the current ECMA specification, but will be included in the next version."
18:04 GlitchMr Oh, I see
18:04 dalek rakudo/toqast: d4b53db | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
18:04 dalek rakudo/toqast: Unbust feeds compilation.
18:04 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d4b53db5df
18:04 dalek rakudo/toqast: d40a3bd | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
18:04 dalek rakudo/toqast: Use correct variant of die op.
18:04 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d40a3bdd1f
18:04 thou hi, does anyone have a solution to the problem commented in the BEGIN block here: https://github.com/softmoth/Term-Curs​es/blob/master/lib/Term/Curses/Raw.pm   for example, maybe a way at compile time to try { } "is native('various-lib-names')" until finding one that works?
18:04 dalek nqp/toqast: 1700236 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
18:04 dalek nqp/toqast: Fix die_s signature.
18:04 dalek nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1700236f2e
18:05 GlitchMr But did it matter? If == was matching before, it would match with === too
18:05 * [Coke] wonders who here would work on perl6 full time if they could.
18:05 seldon GlitchMr: Be aware that IE6 died only recently. Javascripters had to deal with ancient stuff for very long.
18:05 GlitchMr I don't mean IE6
18:05 GlitchMr IE6 is fine
18:05 seldon Ha!
18:05 GlitchMr Aside of edgecases
18:05 arnsholt thou: You may be interested in knowing that one of the things on my TODO list is fixing the bundle/dylib mess on OS X
18:06 GlitchMr If you aren't touching DOM, IE6 is fine in JS
18:06 thou arnsholt: ok, cool. maybe i will just ignore that problem for now, then, and assume it works inside NativeCall
18:06 jnthn Now up to 19889 in toqast. And that's on my box with no ICU support.
18:06 moritz jnthn: want me to spectest on an icu-enabled box?
18:06 flussence GlitchMr: string concat is something like O(n²) speed/mem in IE6 :)
18:07 diakopter [Coke]: well, I'd work on a VM for Perl 6 if I had a commit bit and agreed with the general trajectory :)
18:07 diakopter (full time)
18:07 arnsholt thou: For development, I'd probably just ignore it for now, yeah
18:07 GlitchMr On short strings it doesn't matter
18:07 Tene [Coke]: I'd love to work on Perl 6 full time.
18:07 thou arnsholt: i was just hoping to get something i could put on modules.perl6.org
18:07 arnsholt The problem is that ATM, is native('foo') essentially just turns into dlopen('foo') (modulo some magicks)
18:08 jnthn moritz: Go for it. There's still some amount of breakage.
18:08 arnsholt And dlopen will only try for .bundle stuff automatically. To get dylibs you have to be explicit (like you do)
18:08 jnthn moritz: But probably a heck of a lot less than last time you tried :)
18:08 _sri moritz: it's not the rewrites, but being told perl6 is "usable" over and over that's annoying
18:09 flussence GlitchMr: true, but I had to find this out the hard way because one of those strings was inserting a large <table> in .innerHTML (because... DOM)
18:09 moritz _sri: well, others disagree
18:09 GlitchMr DOM is bad API
18:10 flussence that I can agree on
18:10 arnsholt So essentially, we have to trap load errors on OS X and try an alternative before failing outright
18:10 flussence even when it is implemented correctly :)
18:11 * moritz added another paragraph to http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl​-6/2012-stop-the-rewrites.html
18:11 diakopter folks have very different definitions of usable. My bar for 'usable' is quite high, relative to how it's used around here usually.
18:12 GlitchMr As for .innerHTML
18:12 moritz right
18:12 sergot joined #perl6
18:12 GlitchMr It's not standard, it's Microsoft invention
18:12 GlitchMr But it's way more usable than DOM
18:12 moritz and saying outright that stuff is *not* usable is also wrong, because it deters people that might otherwise try it out, and like it
18:12 moritz we need a balance.
18:12 [Coke] we need better marketers and more tuits, clearly.
18:13 _sri moritz: but i think a disclaimer like "you can play with it already, but not use it for production code yet" would go a long way
18:14 moritz _sri: but some people do use it for production code, and are happy with it
18:15 _sri we have very different definitions of production code i suppose
18:15 moritz yes, and that's part of the problem
18:16 GlitchMr Most of features are implemented
18:16 GlitchMr The only real problem is performance
18:17 _sri GlitchMr: strongly disagree
18:17 _sri the I/O system is a mess
18:17 _sri concurrency does not exist
18:17 diakopter as I've said before, I think a good definition of used in production is: used in business activities or large-scale personal activities
18:18 GlitchMr Concurrency is mostly for performance
18:18 moritz and there you have it
18:18 moritz people have totally different requirements
18:20 GlitchMr https://github.com/mj41/Perl-6-GD/ra​w/master/export/Summary%20-%20Compil​ers'%20features%20-%20GoodData.png
18:20 GlitchMr Well, 83% is good enough
18:20 [Coke] it doesn't matter how many features we add, because we haven't got "basic" stuff like threads. It doesn't matter how elegant we are, because perl is crap anyway. Doesn't matter how fast we do it, because we should have been done already.
18:21 diakopter GlitchMr: the remaining features are huge.
18:22 diakopter natively typed variables, compact arrays are enormous requirements for just about everyone who does data processing, I claim
18:24 GlitchMr JavaScript has those natively typed arrays
18:24 diakopter [Coke]: why do the 2nd two statements go with the first one?
18:25 flussence diakopter: all 3 go in a <sarcasm> tag? :)
18:25 _sri looking at ruby, python and javascript, concurrency might be the feature that makes or breaks perl6
18:26 _sri at least from a marketing point of view
18:26 moritz aye, it could make a huge difference
18:26 [Coke] from a makering POV, perl6 is already broken, I think.
18:26 GlitchMr http://paste.uk.to/980163fe
18:26 [Coke] *marketing
18:26 diakopter well, javascript doesn't have multithreading, but the event loop (implemented through threads or otherwise) can be used for some sense of concurrency
18:27 GlitchMr I wonder how hard it would be to implement something like this
18:27 _sri [Coke]: not yet imo
18:27 geekosaur massive uphill battle to fix the image, yes,I'm afraid :(
18:27 GlitchMr Also, setTimeout(function () { }, 0)
18:27 GlitchMr You have concurrency
18:27 _sri [Coke]: people are very forgiving if you deliver something awesome in the end
18:27 [Coke] _sri: YMMV. I get a lot of negative feedback about sixperl from my nerdy friends.
18:27 [Coke] and perl in general.
18:27 diakopter GlitchMr: that's not concurrency. NO javascript engine can utilize more than one CPU core.
18:28 GlitchMr Well, I know
18:28 [Coke] nerdy *acquaintances, that is.
18:28 geekosaur perl in general, I think it gets a lot of crap because it's successful in a world where everyone wants Shiny New Hawtness
18:28 GlitchMr But it's usually better than threading
18:28 [Coke] +# 07/17/2012 - rakudo++ (22934); niecza (89.88%); pugs (40%)
18:28 [Coke] +"niecza",     20615,     0,   737,  1472, 22824, 24361
18:28 [Coke] +"pugs"  ,      9175,     1,  3378,  1693, 14247, 24222
18:28 [Coke] +"rakudo",     22934,     6,   645,  1830, 25415, 24361
18:28 diakopter GlitchMr: actually, I take that back, there are hacks of node/v8 that do strange things to enable parallelism
18:29 [Coke] rakudo still has 6 failures.
18:29 geekosaur in particular I sometimes wonder if there's some specific anti-perl evangelism rampant in the ruby community because that seems to be where a lot of it comes from... and rubyists also seem to engage in anti-evangelism for any project for which a ruby alternative is available
18:29 GlitchMr Also, noed.js can use fork()
18:29 GlitchMr node.js*
18:29 GlitchMr I guess that fork() counts as concurrency
18:30 masak [Coke]: I'm not sure there was a way to develop Perl 6 and not have a marketing failure along the way. the project was very ambitious from day one, and would take years no matter what. people had high expectations, and would be disappointed no matter what.
18:30 diakopter GlitchMr: not if they don't share memory.
18:31 diakopter it was believed/promised to take less than a year
18:31 tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
18:31 PerlJam masak: there was a way to not have a marketing failure, but it may have ended up as a failure-failure
18:31 [Coke] diakopter: who believed and or promised that?
18:32 PerlJam masak: The way was "only talk about Perl 6 to the 'right' people" and not announce it until there was something more concrete.  That would have negatively impacted Perl 5 and Perl 6 though
18:32 diakopter [Coke]: see page 16 of http://blob.perl.org/perlweb/dev/p​erl6/talks/2001/dconway-Perl6.pdf
18:33 PerlJam masak: on the whole, the marketing failure was worth the innovations we got (in p5 and p6) IMHO
18:33 masak PerlJam: the announcement of Perl 6 was public because it was the answer to "we need to do something to make people not walk away".
18:33 diakopter "We expect to have alpha code a year from now, for
18:33 diakopter some definition of 'alpha'."
18:33 diakopter (page 20)
18:33 masak PerlJam: agree about worth it.
18:33 masak diakopter: whatever happened to the code that would've been that alpha code?
18:35 _sri PerlJam: i don't think the separation of the communities was worth it in the end
18:36 PerlJam _sri: I'm not sure how much stock to put into the "separation of communities" ... many of us have feet in both camps.
18:36 colomon Anyone out there have an idea what a ===SORRY!=== No STable at index 8 error means in Rakudo?
18:36 Vlavv_ joined #perl6
18:37 PerlJam _sri: or ... this is when I get to say "you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs"  :-)
18:37 _sri now i'm hungry :S
18:38 sorear colomon: that error is caused by Rakudo's compilation cache manager bugging out.  The workaround is to find and delete precompiled modules
18:40 PerlJam _sri: What if, I drew analogy between Perl5/Perl6 and Catalyst/Mojolicious where you play Larry's part in the second one?
18:40 PerlJam (would it make sense?  Would you accept that it was worth it?)
18:40 diakopter masak: did you read the .pdf?
18:40 diakopter (not accusing, just asking)
18:41 _sri PerlJam: i would say that it was unfortunate things had to develop the way they did
18:41 PerlJam _sri: okay, on that we can agree 100%
18:42 masak diakopter: yes, last time you linked to it.
18:42 diakopter oh; heh
18:42 diakopter ...I'd forgotten...
18:43 masak :/
18:43 masak as to "separation of communities", I definitely self-identify as a sixer. but I feel quite at home with Perl 5, too. I wrote some earlier today.
18:43 diakopter masak: to answer your question, I don't know precisely.. do you know?
18:44 colomon sorear: did that, and it still happens.
18:44 kaare__ joined #perl6
18:46 [Coke] diakopter: huh. I've been working with parrot and perl 6 since 2001 and I never saw that document.
18:47 [Coke] damian is definitely sending an unfortunate (in retrospect) message there.
18:48 diakopter well, it was published in 2001..
18:48 PerlJam [Coke]: Are you sure you hadn't seeen it but forgotten about it?  (I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me ;)
18:49 [Coke] Disbelief is pretty much where a lot of the detractors I meet are these days. (page 23)
18:49 masak diakopter: all I know is that eventually the Parrot people decided they needed a separate Perl 6 pumpking, pmichaud was brought in (in 2004), PGE was started, and the perl6-on-parrot effort did a full reboot and eventually got the name "Rakudo".
18:49 [Coke] PerlJam: is there anyway I can truthfully answer that I forgot it?
18:49 PerlJam [Coke]: depends on how long you can remember your answer ;)
18:50 [Coke] PerlJam: I am reasonably certain I have never read this document before now.
18:50 diakopter masak: well yeah, but I thought there were several abortive/rewrite starts at VMs/implementations before parrot got situated
18:50 masak diakopter: probably the Parrot git logs go far enough back to give some answers. I believe I did follow them back all the way once in search of the then Perl 6 implementation. but I don't remember much of what I found. it wasn't that much, though.
18:50 PerlJam Feb 2001, Perl 6 was barely more than an idea with some momentum at that point.
18:51 masak when did Parrot get started?
18:51 diakopter The first release of Parrot, 0.0.1, was released in September 2001
18:51 masak oldest Parrot commit is from 29 Aug 2001.
18:52 [Coke] Wed Aug 29 11:36:49 2001
18:52 masak I think it's safe to assume there was no Perl 6 implementation before that.
18:52 [Coke] and that post-dates the initial work simon did.
18:52 PerlJam masak: Does Topaz count as a Perl 6 implementation?  :-)
18:52 masak [Coke]: the, um, Sapphire one?
18:52 masak PerlJam: no.
18:53 masak PerlJam: it explicitly chose not to take the name Perl 6 until it got somewhere.
18:53 masak it didn't get anywhere.
18:53 masak (though it was probably a worthwhile experiment)
18:53 masak 'The Topaz project, a rewrite of Perl 5 internals, was eventually abandoned. I asked Larry why, and he replied that "reimplementing insanity is insane". (Meaning "don't try to extend the Perl 5 internals into Perl 6".)' -- http://strangelyconsistent.org/bl​og/happy-10th-anniversary-perl-6
18:53 [Coke] masak: chip was sapphire, I think.
18:53 masak no, Chip was Topaz.
18:53 masak same blog post.
18:54 PerlJam http://www.perl.com/pub/2000/09/sapphire.html
18:54 [Coke] I mean, I think simon worked on a bit before it got checked in at all
18:54 masak also, <masak> chip left a comment on my blog the other day, to the effect that he called Topaz Topaz precisely so that it shouldn't taint the name 'Perl 6' with bad PR.
18:56 [Coke] yah, dude, we already have that covered. ;)
18:56 masak :P
18:57 masak "Perl 6: making the Perl 5 guys look rather good at marketing."
18:57 PerlJam those were the days when Bryan Warnock was a real person rather than just an expression
18:58 moritz I'm pretty sure mr. Warnock is still a real person :-)
18:58 masak I'm young enough in the community for "Warnock" to have a mythological ring to it.
18:58 masak except when the newsletters were still being written and I read "Warnock applies" and thought it was this really prolific coder who just went around and applied commits whenever someone asked something :P
18:59 PerlJam heh
18:59 masak turns out, no.
18:59 rurban Topaz was a C++ vtable hack.
19:00 rurban To allow vtable calls change at run-time.
19:15 masak I found another bug in last year's game: 'examine flashlight' works even before the flashlight has been revealed in the car.
19:17 * moritz has icreasing problems to keep 6ism out of p5 code
19:18 moritz just wrote ... if $ENV<PROJECT_DEBUG>;
19:24 arnsholt I have troubles with the parens at times too
19:25 arnsholt Haven't tried to do pointies for dereferencing yet though
19:28 jaldhar joined #perl6
19:29 masak why is the summary from Test.pm '# Looks like you failed 1 tests of 93'? why the uncertainty about whether I actually failed tests or not?
19:29 mauke because 100% certainty doesn't exist
19:30 * masak .oO( I'm sure it doesn't! )
19:30 felher *lol*
19:41 moritz quick question, what should a REST API return when a POST request failed to create a resource?
19:42 masak 412 Precondition Failed, perhaps?
19:43 masak but I would guess it depends a bit.
19:43 flussence I usually go with 400, for lack of a more correct thing
19:43 flussence if it's the client's fault, 4xx, server's fault, 5xx
19:43 jnthn If the resource to create was coffee, then there's 418 I'm a teapot
19:44 jaldhar joined #perl6
19:46 moritz flussence: in general, I don't know if it's the client's or server's fault :(
19:52 masak then 450 ;)
19:52 masak or 900.
19:52 jnthn moritz: But is there a "more likely" notion?
19:53 moritz jnthn: more likely client side error
19:53 jnthn moritz: Then I'd go with something in the 4xx.
19:54 jnthn 400 bad request is pretty generic but many of the other options are quite specific.
19:55 moritz jnthn: fwiw my toqast rakudo+nqp build still fails fatally on warnings
19:55 moritz (latest nqp + rakudo)
19:56 hoelzro hi Perl6 folk
19:56 masak hi, hoelzro! \o
19:57 hoelzro o/
19:57 hoelzro I think I found another bug =/
19:57 dalek rakudo/toqast: f0832bc | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
19:57 dalek rakudo/toqast: Smartmatching can use a local, not lexical, for temporary.
19:57 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f0832bcb9a
19:57 dalek rakudo/toqast: fb3a4b0 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
19:57 dalek rakudo/toqast: Fix whatever curry analysis up, so we don't regress in any of the whatever tests now. Also this probably gets meta-ops righter than before.
19:57 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fb3a4b01be
19:57 jnthn moritz: How can I reproduce?
19:57 hoelzro https://gist.github.com/3131624
19:57 hoelzro that program crashes with a fun error message on Rakudo Star 2012.06
19:57 jnthn moritz: warn 'foo'; say 42 # says foo\n42\n
19:58 [Coke]_ joined #perl6
19:58 mathw_ joined #perl6
19:58 moritz jnthn: my parrot is RELEASE_4_5_0-111-g96d2ffd, what's yours?
19:58 telex_ joined #perl6
19:58 patspam_ joined #perl6
19:58 risou_ joined #perl6
19:59 jnthn moritz: -V gives "This is Parrot version 4.5.0-devel"
19:59 moritz $ ./qperl6 -e '+"foo"; say 42'
19:59 moritz 42
19:59 cosimo joined #perl6
19:59 moritz jnthn: git describe --tags in the parrot repo
19:59 moritz $ ./qperl6 -e '+Any; say 42'
19:59 moritz use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric contextNo such method 'message' for invocant of type 'Any'
19:59 jnthn moritz: RELEASE_4_5_0
19:59 moritz then a backtrace, and no 42
19:59 Pleiades` joined #perl6
19:59 moritz jnthn: I'll try that one then
20:00 jnthn moritz: odd, I just tried that qperl6 -e "+Any; say 42" and it comes out with the 42 also.
20:01 crab2313 joined #perl6
20:02 jnthn hoelzro: What's the error?
20:03 rnddim joined #perl6
20:03 moritz star: https://gist.github.com/3131624
20:03 p6eval star 2012.06: OUTPUT«Cannot locate native library 'libsqlite3.so'␤  in method postcircumfix:<( )> at /home/p6eval/star/lib/parrot/4.5.0/la​nguages/perl6/lib/NativeCall.pm6:102␤  in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:811␤  in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:807␤  in method connect at /home…
20:06 hoelzro jnthn: I just commented on my gist with the error message and trace
20:06 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
20:07 jnthn hoelzro: Thanks.
20:08 hoelzro I'm compiling Rakudo Star + Parrot with debugging on to see if that sheds some light on the subject
20:10 masak hoelzro++
20:16 moritz jnthn: still the same with parrot 4.5.0
20:17 jnthn moritz: Very odd.
20:17 jnthn moritz: You're using the qperl6 executable?
20:17 moritz jnthn: yes
20:18 jnthn oh...
20:18 jnthn I think I just reproduced it.
20:18 jnthn oh, but the perl6 executable does the same.
20:19 jnthn It's not just that CORE.setting my branch lags behind the one in master a bit?
20:19 jnthn *in
20:19 moritz oh, that might be
20:19 jnthn moritz: It lags by some way
20:19 jnthn moritz: And merging isn't very convenient for me.
20:21 moritz jnthn: what about cherry-picking a few commits that fix that?
20:23 jnthn moritz: Guess that's possible.
20:23 jnthn moritz: Is it breaking many tests, though?
20:23 brrt joined #perl6
20:23 jnthn Oh, maybe my spectests are quite old too :)
20:24 moritz jnthn: I think so, yes
20:25 moritz jnthn: 'git diff 53fc0ae 50774a3' is the patch I'd like to cherry-pick
20:25 moritz it's actually a mini branch
20:26 jnthn moritz: That should be fine.
20:29 moritz jnthn: I'll spectest with and without and see what the difference is
20:34 hoelzro I'm guessing that this is related to NativeCall
20:35 moritz Files=682, Tests=21973, 854 wallclock secs # toqast with ICU
20:36 moritz and t/spec/S05-modifier/counted-match.rakudo loops, 'cause it misses some setting patches by pmichaud++
20:37 hoelzro is there a way to force the GC to run in Rakudo?
20:38 jnthn moritz: Hmm, the [Coke] number for mater earlier was 22934...is that the right number?
20:39 jnthn moritz: If so that'd seem to suggest the difference is now < 1000 tests.
20:39 moritz hoelzro: pir::gcdebug__vI(1); 1 + 1; pir::gcdebug__vI(0)
20:39 moritz hoelzro: untested
20:40 moritz r: pir::gcdebug__vI(1); 1 + 1; pir::gcdebug__vI(0); say 'alive'
20:40 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context  in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:104␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context  in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:104␤␤==​=SORRY!===␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected IREG, expecting …
20:40 hoelzro also, is there a way to print the PMC location in memory for an object?
20:40 jnthn hoelzro: .WHERE
20:40 moritz r: pir::gc_debug__vI(1); 1 + 1; pir::gc_debug__vI(0); say 'alive'
20:40 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«alive␤»
20:40 moritz with underscore
20:41 hoelzro damn, that doesn't trigger the error
20:51 hoelzro this one is sans DBIish: https://gist.github.com/3131993
20:57 masak lol, I blog'd! \o/ http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/ju​ly-17-2012-getting-things-from-the-car
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21:04 sirrobert how can I access a class property whose name is contained within a variable?  e.g. ...
21:05 sirrobert class A { has $!foo; method speak () { my $bar = 'foo'; say $!$bar; } }
21:05 masak r: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; my $method = "foo"; A.new."$method"()
21:05 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
21:05 masak like that.
21:05 sirrobert from within the class, though
21:05 masak same.
21:06 masak oh, an attribute.
21:06 sirrobert yeah
21:06 masak not a method.
21:06 masak no, not without MOP.
21:06 sirrobert hmm
21:06 sirrobert ok, I can unDRY my code, then =)
21:06 masak r: class A { has $!foo }; say A.^attributes
21:06 p6eval rakudo 1fe39c: OUTPUT«$!foo␤»
21:06 * jnthn wonders "why"
21:06 jnthn :)
21:07 felher masak++ #blogpost / crypt hacking
21:08 masak \o/
21:08 jnthn (It's hard to give a good answer without a little more context.)
21:08 sirrobert jnthn:  the output of a Str() function varies depending on a few considerations.  method Str() { if $!.a eq any(<foo bar baz>) { return "$!{$.a} is fun!"} }
21:09 sirrobert $!foo $!bar and $!baz are all proeprties of the class
21:09 sirrobert (err class properties =)
21:09 sirrobert thanks, masak -- looking at MOP stuffs now
21:09 arnsholt jnthn: I'm pretty close to having callbacks in a state where I can start testing things, if you were curious
21:09 jnthn arnsholt: oooh!
21:09 jnthn arnsholt: Awesome progress.
21:10 arnsholt Annoyingly, the marshalling code is almost but not quite possible to share between invocation and callbacks
21:10 arnsholt But that's life I guess =)
21:11 sirrobert I *love* that hyphens can be used in variable names, btw.
21:12 kst joined #perl6
21:12 masak it's not so bad.
21:13 arnsholt jnthn: BTW, is there a standard way of getting at PARROT_INTERP without getting it passed as an argument?
21:13 masak kst: welcome back :)
21:13 masak long time no see.
21:13 arnsholt I need the interp object to do some operations in the callback handler, so ATM the interp from the call is passed in the userdata, but that feels a bit wrong
21:14 arnsholt Also, smells like it could explode hilariously if we ever get threads and several interpreters in the mix
21:16 jnthn arnsholt: arnsholt What operations, ooc?
21:16 jnthn arnsholt: Agree it's a whole loads of fun if the interp could be running, though, rather than in a "waiting" state...
21:17 arnsholt Lemme check. Can't remember off-hand
21:18 jnthn arnsholt: Parrot has some *very* restricted (signature wise) callback handling that worked at some point and may still function somewhat. It could be interesting to look at for how it handles the interp, but it looks like it stashes it like you are. src/interp/inter_cb.c is the place to look.
21:18 arnsholt jnthn: The marshaling operations (make_*_result) need interp, also setting up and invoking the sub call
21:19 jnthn OK, that's the things I expected.
21:19 arnsholt Cool
21:21 arnsholt As an aside, it's a bit annoying that the generated _ops.c file doesn't get #line annotations
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21:24 moritz iirc there's a configure option to emit those, but it's not very reliable
21:25 arnsholt Ah, right. That explains why it's not standard
21:26 arnsholt Anyways, the proper fix for my annoyance would be to fix the ops code so that compilation doesn't result in five pages of warnings =)
21:27 moritz nqp.ops?
21:28 arnsholt nqp_dyncall.ops in my case
21:29 fgomez joined #perl6
21:32 moritz nqp_dyncall_ops.c:119:8: warning: no previous prototype for ‘get_nc_repr_id’ [-Wmissing-prototypes]
21:32 moritz does that mean that function should either be in a header file, or 'static'?
21:34 arnsholt Yeah, it means I've forgotten to add the header file to nqp_dyncall.ops
21:34 moritz it's not in any header file, it's just defined in the .ops file
21:34 moritz and used nowhere else
21:34 moritz so should be static
21:34 arnsholt Oh
21:35 arnsholt Yeah, probably
21:35 moritz I'll try to remove some of those warnings
21:35 arnsholt I just unstaticed it along with the other get_*_repr_id functions probably
21:35 arnsholt The others were necessary for structs in structs and such
21:35 arnsholt Or you could add it to the appropriate header file, for symmetry
21:36 arnsholt I suspect it'll be necessary for handling callback functions sent from C to Perl
21:36 moritz ok, header file then
21:37 arnsholt Anyways, thanks for the help. It's one of those things that're on my list but other things keep being more interesting =)
21:37 arnsholt moritz++
21:39 moritz so the prototype for make_cstruct_result goes into ../6model/reprs/CStr.h, right?
21:39 arnsholt No, that feels wrong I think
21:40 moritz or should we have a separate nqp_dyncall.h?
21:40 jnthn The latter sounds more like it.
21:40 jnthn We could even more some stuff out of the ops file into a separate .c file if it helps/is cleaner.
21:40 jnthn The Rakudo binder is bundled in like that for example.
21:41 arnsholt make_cstruct_result is prototyped in src/6model/reprs/dyncall_reprs.h
21:41 moritz oh
21:41 jnthn ah, I guess that's OK too
21:41 arnsholt But yeah, what jnthn suggests might be cleaner, actually
21:42 arnsholt Dunno
21:42 dalek nqp: af917c3 | moritz++ | src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops:
21:42 dalek nqp: include a header file to avoid some warnings
21:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/af917c3be1
21:49 sergot good night o/
21:51 masak dobranoc, o sergocie.
21:51 dalek nqp: 1950d07 | moritz++ | src/6model/reprs/NativeCall.h:
21:51 dalek nqp: be more specific about type of NativeCallBody.lib_handle -- avoids a few more compiler warnings
21:51 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1950d07dca
22:01 dalek nqp: fffa108 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
22:01 dalek nqp: avoid more warnings in C code
22:01 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fffa108a11
22:02 moritz I have no idea what to do about the -Wstrict-aliasing stuff
22:03 mauke what are the warnings?
22:04 moritz warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer might break strict-aliasing rules [-Wstrict-aliasing]
22:04 mauke for what code?
22:04 moritz CStructBody     *body      = (CStructBody *) OBJECT_BODY(obj)
22:05 mauke yeah, well ... don't do that then? :-)
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22:06 moritz what should i do instead?
22:07 mauke what are you trying to achieve?
22:07 moritz clear up compiler warnings in src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops
22:07 mauke remove -Wstrict-aliasing
22:07 mauke or compile with 2>/dev/null
22:08 moritz well, removing warnings is non-trivial, since they are inherited from parrot's configure
22:09 arnsholt I'm not sure that particular warning is avoidable
22:09 mauke it is trivially avoidable by redirect stderr to /dev/null
22:10 mauke however, that is not what you're trying to achieve
22:10 mauke if you're sane
22:10 arnsholt Yeah
22:10 arnsholt The goal is clearing up the compile output so that it's not pages and pages of warnings
22:10 mauke wrong
22:10 mauke the goal is working code
22:11 benabik Pages of warnings make it difficult to notice errors.  Optimize for programmer happiness.
22:11 mauke the compiler is telling "hey, your code is shit and I'm going to murder it to death"
22:11 mauke those warnings are errors
22:11 arnsholt Working code is nice too, true. But the proximal goal here is just to make it easier to find errors
22:11 mauke er, *telling you
22:11 mauke this is an error
22:12 arnsholt moritz: If you're looking for LHF, I think there are a bunch of switches with no default that get duplicated several times in the ops section
22:13 benabik joined #perl6
22:14 moritz arnsholt: and what's the correct default? an "internal error" exception?
22:15 orafu joined #perl6
22:15 arnsholt Yeah, probably
22:20 mauke if you can't fix the broken code, -fno-strict-aliasing is a workaround
22:26 dalek nqp: cbc33cd | moritz++ | src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops:
22:26 dalek nqp: avoid more compiler warnings
22:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cbc33cda0f
22:27 moritz arnsholt: I didn't get rid of all those warnings, because dyncall_wb_cs has no access to interp, so I can't throw an exception
22:27 sorear passport application complete
22:30 masak 'night, #perl6
22:30 sorear 'night, masak
22:33 dalek rakudo/toqast: 574a8fa | moritz++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
22:33 dalek rakudo/toqast: Merge branch 'ex-hardening' into toquast
22:33 dalek rakudo/toqast:
22:33 dalek rakudo/toqast: (Actually a cherry pick, not a merge. Makes warnings non-fatal again)
22:33 dalek rakudo/toqast: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/574a8fa0da
22:34 moritz that's another 1.5k tests for me
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23:46 [Coke]_ (warnings) I have access to update parrot's warning code. if it makes sense to add more warnings or eliminate old warnings, lemme know.
23:52 skids joined #perl6
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