Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-08-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:53 moritz japhb: sync'ed
02:00 echo Hi, I am playing perl6 and find that 24*(1+0.06)**384.0 and 24*(1+0.06)**384 will give different answers. Is the later the wrong way to write? thanks.
02:00 echo I am using rakudo 2012.07
02:01 benabik r: say 24*(1+0.06)**384.0 ; say 24*(1+0.06)**384
02:01 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«125217060205.887␤125217060160.84␤»
02:01 moritz nr: say 24*(1+0.06)**384.0 ; say 24*(1+0.06)**384
02:01 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«125217060205.88733␤125217060205.88733␤»
02:01 p6eval ..rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«125217060205.887␤125217060160.84␤»
02:01 moritz that is... not good
02:02 moritz echo: I fear that's an artifact of how our numbers are stored, and me being too stupid to properly implement arithmetics on them :(
02:02 benabik r: say (1.06)**384.0 ; say (1.06)**384
02:02 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«5217377508.57864␤5217377506.70165␤»
02:03 moritz that's Rat**Int which seems... less than awesome
02:03 moritz r: 1.06.Num ** 384
02:03 p6eval rakudo d71ad1:  ( no output )
02:03 moritz r: say 1.06.Num ** 384
02:03 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«5217377508.57864␤»
02:04 moritz that goes through floating point numbers
02:05 echo I will always write the first one for the moment. Thanks.
02:06 echo It is tricky.
02:08 echo another question. If I find something not normal,Is there any place to verify or find if anyone have found that before?
02:08 moritz https://rt.perl.org/rt3/ has a list of bugs
02:09 moritz but the searchability of the RT queue is less than awesome
02:09 echo I read a lot of your tutorial and really thanks.
02:10 moritz you're welcome
02:22 colomon echo: easiest thing to do is to ask here (about bugs).  :)
02:22 colomon r: say (1.06)**384
02:22 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«5217377506.70165␤»
02:22 colomon n: say (1.06)**384
02:22 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«5217377508.578639␤»
02:23 colomon n: say (1.06.FatRat)**384
02:23 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
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02:23 colomon n: say 1.06.FatRat
02:23 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«1.06␤»
02:23 moritz r: say 1.06.perl
02:23 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«53/50␤»
02:24 moritz nr: say (53**384).chars
02:24 p6eval rakudo d71ad1, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«663␤»
02:25 colomon n: say ((1.06.FatRat)**384).perl
02:25 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«FatRat.new(13241400660091156056334719​70133826022676400230314781380245428545661231​19646532114474156496686592838764941288438612​73631330687331673632294634852991128151336619​31554606556356747103821477954271187820556340​1264431722452303302076085050815665733142294…
02:25 colomon oh
02:25 moritz why does it stringify as NaN then?
02:25 colomon division issues, I'm guessing
02:25 moritz anyway, the problem in Rakudo seems to be an inaccuracy in infix:</>(bigint, bigint)
02:25 moritz r: say 1.06.FatRat ** 384
02:25 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«5217377508.5785367815836747157755889691​1296684033702009137685882134998813049278425115​3381027630671683175754416247218244899517385171​8164900043014588616695557556825109591613572905​7151636896645750392722496766026338071272892232​751692201166059811032002441617787626320865…
02:30 colomon n: say ((1.06.FatRat)**384).numerator.Num
02:30 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
02:30 colomon Ah, that's the problem.
02:33 echo Thanks. If I want to read some source code, which part should I start? perl is my first language, then I learn a little bit haskell.
02:33 moritz rakudo does it a bit smarter than first coercing both ints to Num
02:34 echo to be frank, I do not know what your are talk about.
02:34 echo about FatRat issues
02:35 moritz echo: FatRat is a way to store rational numbers, with arbitrary precision numerator and denominator
02:36 moritz echo: and niecza has trouble printing 1.06.FatRat ** 384, because both numerator and denominator are too large to fit into a floating point value
02:36 moritz whereas rakudo can print it, but has trouble converting the result to a floating point value again
02:36 moritz echo: so, what kind of source code you want to read?
02:37 colomon moritz: you can't coerce that Int to a Num, that's the problem.
02:37 echo If just the numeric part in rakudo?
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02:38 moritz echo: well, that's a bit spread out :-)
02:38 moritz parsing of numbers is in src/Perl6/Grammar.pm
02:38 moritz (number literals, that is)
02:38 moritz the core types are defined in src/core/{Int,Rat,Num,Real,Numeric}.pm
02:39 moritz and bigint stuff happens in nqp
02:39 moritz colomon: yes. But you don't need to for stringification
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02:42 colomon moritz: oh, right, sorry, I read your "bit smarter than first coercing both ints to Num" exactly backwards.
02:43 echo I happen to have a question. several days ago. there is a question in reddit. to get the 10000 digit after the decimal of sqrt(2). It is easy to get arbitrary Int. but it's not easy to get arbitrary precision of float. I just do not have any idea.
02:45 moritz fwiw code that leads to rakudo's wrong results is either in https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/​master/src/ops/nqp_bigint.ops#L307 or https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/​master/src/ops/nqp_bigint.ops#L22
02:45 moritz echo: now what's your question?
02:46 echo get the sqrt(2) but need 10000 digits after the decimal
02:46 colomon right
02:47 moritz echo: do it with integers
02:47 colomon there's no built in way to get that info
02:47 moritz basically you need to calculate   round(2 * 10^20000)
02:47 moritz erm, sqrt(round(2 * 10 **20000))
02:48 moritz and get the last digit
02:48 echo I understand
02:48 echo thanks.
02:48 moritz our sqrt implementation isn't good enough for that, so you need to write your own iterative sqrt solver
02:48 colomon .... that's a lot simpler solution than I was going to suggest
02:48 moritz which isn't hard
02:48 colomon oh, not so much.
02:48 echo I know a little bit of it.
02:49 echo but never think about to change it to an Int problem
02:49 echo Thanks.
02:49 colomon http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/?s=pi+spigot might be a start for a different approach.
02:50 moritz oh right, spigot algorithms for sqrt(2) exist too
02:50 moritz they are even easier than for pi, iirc
02:50 echo thanks.
02:51 colomon I need to get the continued fraction module up and running, that would make it easy.
02:51 echo I am curious about your  background. You are a phd in physics if i am not wrong. How can you know so much about cs?
02:51 moritz echo: it's my hobby :-)
02:52 moritz also my minor subject
02:52 colomon moritz++
02:52 echo I am not a cs student too. but self learning is not easy. maybe i am not smart.
02:53 echo which books are most useful to know something about the core stuff?
02:54 moritz well, since we are now on the subject of programming and discrete math, Knuth is a good recommendation :-)
02:54 moritz The Art of Computer Programming by D. Knuth
02:54 echo they are too big. haha
02:54 benabik But informative.
02:54 echo I mean several volumes
02:56 moritz https://gist.github.com/3243897 # spoiler
02:57 moritz and it's slooooow
02:57 moritz about a second per iteration  or so
02:57 echo wow. thanks.
02:57 moritz oh
02:58 moritz one can start off a bit smarter
02:58 moritz my Int $sqrt = 10 ** 10_000
02:58 moritz starting with a guess in the right ballpark makes it run in 13s on my machine
02:58 moritz instead of, like, forever :-)
03:00 moritz nr: https://gist.github.com/3243897
03:00 p6eval rakudo d71ad1, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«1␤»
03:00 moritz so, that's your answer :-)
03:00 moritz just hope it's correct :-)
03:01 echo thanks.
03:01 moritz I haven't proven that my sqrt implementation converges on the right number
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03:01 TimToady not sure rounding is the correct algorithm either
03:02 moritz it would be much more robust to start with 2 * 10**20_002
03:02 TimToady is the 4th digit of pi 5 or 6?
03:02 moritz and take the second-to-last digit
03:03 moritz doing that still gives 1
03:03 moritz so, lucky me :-)
03:04 moritz niecza++ # running the thing in oly 3s
03:04 moritz n: https://gist.github.com/3243897
03:04 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«1␤»
03:04 moritz now a wee bit robuster
03:05 moritz now that $smallone is asleep again, I'll try to do the same
03:05 moritz resleep&
03:05 echo I do not know why start point is important?
03:09 echo just for speed?
03:10 diakopter TimToady: you and your rhetorical inquiries.. :P
03:16 echo substr(*-2, 1)->substr(1,*-2)
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03:18 echo why I have to put * in front of -2, instead of perl5's way?
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03:21 colomon echo: Perl 6 tries to get rid of all the "negative numbers do something magical" things like that.
03:22 diakopter instead, * does something magical
03:22 colomon So *-2 is a simple anonymous function, something like sub ($x) { $x - 2 }
03:23 colomon and when functions like substr get a function where they expect to get an Integer, they apply the length of what they are dealing with to the function and use the result as their integer.
03:23 echo understand. It is more uniform. kind of like section in haskell.
03:23 colomon nr: my @a = 0..10; say @a[*-1]
03:23 p6eval rakudo d71ad1, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«10␤»
03:23 colomon nr: my @a = 0..10; say @a[*/2]
03:24 p6eval rakudo d71ad1, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«5␤»
03:24 colomon nr: my @a = 0..10; say @a[*.sqrt]
03:24 p6eval rakudo d71ad1, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«3␤»
03:25 colomon it's one more character to type, but it's more flexible and harder to trigger accidentally.
03:25 echo Yes. but  only if you understand. I think.
03:26 echo Your answer help's a lot.
03:26 TimToady n: say $_[-1]
03:26 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unsupported use of [-1] subscript to access from end of array; in Perl 6 please use [*-1] at /tmp/Ee_E8eyOZB line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> [32msay $_[-1][33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
03:27 TimToady at least you can get a decent error message telling you what to do
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03:27 colomon n: say substr("This is a test", *-2)
03:27 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«st␤»
03:27 colomon n: say substr("This is a test", -2)
03:27 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
03:27 colomon ...sometimes...
03:27 diakopter n: say $_[0-1]
03:27 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
03:29 diakopter r: say $_[0-1]
03:29 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on Any␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:9636␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7028␤  in block  at /tmp/rEWeoWV8NT:1␤␤»
03:30 diakopter r: say [5][0-1]
03:30 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on Array␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:9636␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7028␤  in block  at /tmp/Io2v_sy3oB:1␤␤»
03:31 diakopter n: say [5][0-1]
03:31 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
03:33 echo Is it possible to input multiline sub in the repl.
03:33 echo for the moment, i can only input one line sub in the repl.
03:33 echo thanks.
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03:40 echo my @a = 1..10; say @a[*/2-1] this works too.
03:40 echo my @a = 1..10; say @a[*/2-1] this works too
03:41 echo easy way to get the median
03:47 zhutingting1 joined #perl6
03:48 sorear you need to sort it first
03:48 echo yes. thanks.
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05:12 japhb moritz++ # thank you for syncing the docs
05:13 japhb jnthn, hopefully you will find http://doc.perl6.org/images/type-graph-Numeric.png more to your liking now.  :-)
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05:57 moritz japhb++ # that one is really cool
05:58 zhutingting joined #perl6
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07:07 cosimo built the current rakudo. ready to get back on track, testing my modules at least :-)
07:07 cosimo and good $morning, #perl6
07:08 moritz \o cosimo
07:11 moritz MIME::Base64 is currently broken (on which LWP::Simple depends). Ive submitted a pull request, but snarkyboojum didn't merge it yet
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07:15 moritz and LWP::Simply might need to replace $str.bytes with $str.encode.bytes
07:16 moritz in fact, LWP::Simply should be switched to use Buf for binary data, but IO::Socket.recv can't handle that yet :(
07:24 sorear o/ moritz
07:29 cosimo moritz: saw that
07:30 cosimo lately I was wondering if following the p5 model is the correct thing to do
07:30 cosimo I mean, it would be easier I guess for people to try out something called LWP::Simple
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07:30 cosimo but, is that really using the power of perl6?
07:31 cosimo I've been reading a bit too many Alan Kay's articles lately :-)
07:34 moritz for any non-Perl user, "LWP" is a terrible name
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07:38 diakopter acronyms of acronyms usually are
07:39 diakopter (imho)
07:39 cosimo there is other perl6 http clients out there, right?
07:39 cosimo I remember having seen one or two
07:40 moritz https://github.com/supernovus/perl6-http-client/
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07:41 sorear moritz: so uh.  2 weeks.  I need to work out travel and lodging ASAP.  stress, ton of bricks, go.
07:42 cosimo github is having some problems for me
07:43 cosimo moritz: if that's good, we should probably let LWP::Simple die?
07:44 cosimo meanwhile, make spectest is failing for me on t/spec/S02-types/version.t
07:47 moritz that's an odd test to fail on
07:49 cosimo I'm trying (and failing) to obtain verbose test results
07:50 moritz ./perl6 -Ilib t/spec/S02-types/version.t
07:50 tadzik good morning
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07:53 cosimo moritz: doh
07:55 cosimo moritz: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/204670
07:57 moritz all those greek letters
07:57 moritz cosimo: lemme guess, you don't have ICU installed?
07:58 moritz r: say $*VM<config><has_icu>
07:58 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:59 cosimo moritz: has_icu=0
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08:05 cosimo moritz: what do you say of skipping those tests if has_icu=0 ?
08:05 cosimo I can try to write a patch
08:05 cosimo :)
08:06 moritz it's just adding an # icu  marker to t/spectest.data
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08:19 cosimo moritz: ok
08:23 cosimo am I the only one seeing "Something went wrong" all over the place at github?
08:25 cosimo no files or commit info showing...
08:25 moritz the things I've looked just now seem to work
08:25 cosimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/ for example is broken for me
08:25 tadzik looks good from here
08:26 cosimo ?
08:26 moritz loks fiine here too
08:27 cosimo my browser probably. using Opera 12.50 ;-)
08:28 moritz browserbug!
08:33 cosimo filed too
08:33 cosimo 12.50 is not out yet
08:34 masak good antenoon, #perl6
08:35 GlitchMr You should expect surprises with dev version of browser
08:36 masak moritz: I just found your RFC for the AST docs. (was a little distracted with $family yesterday.)
08:36 masak moritz: it looks good overall.
08:37 masak moritz: "partially processed" -- I'm thinking whether there is a more exact description than that.
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08:37 masak also, it is a good bet that an API will emerge out of the macros work. the trick will be to have it be implementable across implementations.
08:38 cosimo GlitchMr: I use our alphas all the time, even for mail :)
08:39 GlitchMr "On this site, on IRC, and at YAPC::NA 2012 I heard many people comment that Windows users really wanted a binary install option."
08:39 GlitchMr :)
08:40 GlitchMr Well, I've moved to Linux, but it's nice nevertheless :)
08:42 cosimo I'm on Linux too
08:42 sorear i wanted a binary install option when I was on a Linux machine with 384 MB of RAM
08:43 hoelzro that's actually an interesting point
08:43 GlitchMr 384MB?
08:43 GlitchMr That's... really low
08:43 sorear now I'm on an OSX machine with 8G, and the need is less pressing
08:43 hoelzro I can't install Rakudo Star on my VPS because I run out of RAM =(
08:43 GlitchMr But, I guess I had 10 years machine with 128MB of RAM, so whatever
08:43 GlitchMr years ago*
08:43 sorear GlitchMr: tell that to kid51 and lue both of whom are still on 256
08:44 GlitchMr Heh, I'm making a blog layout now :P
08:44 GlitchMr http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63913412/webdesign.png
08:44 GlitchMr I know that I'm not designer :P
08:45 tadzik ha, Opera
08:45 * tadzik approves
08:45 GlitchMr Yes, it's a nice browser
08:47 GlitchMr Just don't laugh at my site source: http://paste.uk.to/b220dee0 and http://paste.uk.to/abecce20
08:47 GlitchMr Yes, testing
08:47 GlitchMr Everything aside of layout is placeholder
08:48 mucker joined #perl6
08:49 GlitchMr ... actually... I just have noticed placeholderish url() in my CSS :P
08:49 cosimo html5 yea
08:49 GlitchMr I would call it pseudo HTML5
08:49 sorear sleep&
08:50 GlitchMr I mean, all it uses from HTML5 is DOCTYPE
08:50 jnthn morning
08:50 tadzik hello jnthn
08:51 GlitchMr jnthn proposed me to blog about this DuckDuckGo thing, so I'm now making layout for blog :P
08:52 jnthn \o/
08:52 GlitchMr tadzik: I even use Opera Mini at my phone :P.
08:52 jnthn GlitchMr++
08:52 GlitchMr Opera Link is so useful
08:54 jnthn japhb++ # http://doc.perl6.org/images/type-graph-Numeric.png is awesome
08:54 GlitchMr It would be nicer if bookmarks would sync between Opera Mini and Opera Desktop, but whatever. As long... "Quick Select" or whatever it is called in English version works it's fine
08:58 GlitchMr Just wondering, would it be possible to add my blog to planetsix.perl.org when I will push it to server?
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09:03 masak that would most certainly be possible, yes.
09:03 jnthn Should be.
09:03 jnthn I always forget who has the access to do it.
09:03 masak well, if you have an RSS or Atom feed, at least.
09:06 GlitchMr I can make RSS feed...
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09:30 cosimo GlitchMr: bookmarks do sync between desktop and mini
09:31 lauper_cyndi joined #perl6
09:31 lauper_cyndi I just talked to Keanu Reeves yesterday
09:31 lauper_cyndi and he made this funny pic on the quickmeme http://i.qkme.me/3q1yr9.jpg
09:31 tadzik heh, I just wanted to paste this as "Look what just appeared on #perl"
09:39 masak it's funny, but untrue. I've been using Perl 6 for the past seven years and a half years. it's not impossible to implement.
09:39 masak s/ years//
09:40 jnthn But it's bloody hard!
09:40 jnthn :P
09:44 jnthn .oO( If it was boringly easy, I'd probably not be here, though, so... :) )
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09:53 felher moritz: would you be so kind as to take a brief look and maybe even apply https://gist.github.com/3240741 ? It didn't introduce any spectest failures :)
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10:00 masak felher: looks good -- but allow me to play devil's advocate a little.
10:01 felher masak: sure, go ahead :)
10:01 masak felher: what's the use case? what's the worst thing that happens if we don't give Date.new these defaults?
10:02 masak specifically, do you consider Date.new(2014, 5) more readable than Date.new(2014, 5, 1) ?
10:02 masak or less?
10:02 jnthn masak: This is the constructor taht takes named args
10:02 masak oh!
10:03 masak I immediately drop all my complaints.
10:03 felher masak: this is only for the named parameters. So you may write Date.new(year => 1) instead of Date.new(year => 1, motnh =>1, day => 1)
10:03 felher :)
10:03 masak but we should maybe consider the option of making all three nameds obligatory instead of giving them defaults.
10:03 masak though I admit my case for that is smaller than if they were positional.
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10:11 felher I like to be able to say Date.new(year => 2012). If this isn't used as a abbreviation for 2012-01-01 specifically (in wich case i really would write Date.new(2012,1,1)), it tells me that the other two values are either unimportant or will be filled in later.
10:11 felher masak: i understand your point, though :)
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10:44 felher r: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blar" ~~ /^ @array $/;
10:44 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
10:44 felher Hm.. I guess array interpolation into regex is not working yet? :)
10:47 hoelzro felher: I don't think any interpolation is working
10:47 hoelzro wrt rakudo
10:47 hoelzro also, wouldn't it be /^ @array[] /?
10:47 * hoelzro is not sure
10:47 masak I don't think regex interpolation needs the []
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10:48 hoelzro oh, good to know!
10:48 felher hoelzro: thnx :)
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10:53 felher Hm, whatever. I just put a extra testfile in my testsuite, testing array interpolation and assuming it to fail. And as soon as rakudo gets to interpolate @arrays into regex, the test fails and i can substitute the old code with cute new code :)
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10:54 hoelzro felher: try /^ <@array> $/, maybe
10:54 hoelzro I'm pretty sure that works with scalars
10:54 hoelzro r: my $o = 'o'; say 'foo' ~~ / <$o> /
10:54 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«q[o]␤␤»
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10:56 felher r: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blar" ~~ /^ <@array> $/;
10:56 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
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10:57 felher hoelzro: thanks, but it doesn't seem to work :)
10:59 hoelzro felher: well, that might not be interpolation-related
10:59 hoelzro r: my @arry = <o>; say 'foo' ~~ / <@arry> /
10:59 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«q[o]␤␤»
10:59 gfldex @array / is correct, see http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#line_1265
10:59 hoelzro your regex just doesn't match!
10:59 hoelzro gfldex: ah, thank you
11:00 gfldex if you want to match against the array "foo" ~~ @array will do
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11:00 gfldex if you want to match against a list of patterns you may be out of luck
11:01 GlitchMr http://paste.uk.to/6ae1cd74
11:01 felher hoelzro: i guess it is interpolated as a string, currently.
11:01 GlitchMr Bored...
11:01 felher r: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blar blubb" ~~ /^ @array $/;
11:01 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«q[blar blubb]␤␤»
11:01 felher \o/
11:01 felher looks like string interpolation. :) Not the kind of interpolation i want, but you can't say @arrays don't get interpolated into regex ;)
11:02 gfldex felher: it depends whatis in that variable
11:02 gfldex if you got a Regexp object, it will call that subrule
11:02 gfldex that should work for arrays too
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11:03 gfldex there is some funky syntax to turn a string into a regexp object (and as such a subrule) on the fly
11:04 timotimo r: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ @array $/;
11:04 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
11:04 timotimo heh.
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11:05 felher gfldex: good to know, thnx :)
11:05 GlitchMr huh?
11:05 GlitchMr Shouldn't interpolating @array in regexp make alternations dynamically?
11:06 timotimo it would certainly be pretty cool.
11:06 felher timotimo: i guess @array gets interpolated into the regex as a string. And since "@array[]" gets you "blar blubb", it matches only "blar blubb", and not "blubb blar". :)
11:06 timotimo r: my @array = <blar blubb>; my $alt = any(@array); say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ $alt $/;
11:06 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«Can not get non-existent attribute '$!pos' on class 'Cursor'␤  in regex  at /tmp/FSbHUNMFab:1␤  in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9866␤  in block  at /tmp/FSbHUNMFab:1␤␤»
11:06 GlitchMr n: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ @array $/;
11:06 timotimo r: my @array = <blar blubb>; my $alt = any(|@array); say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ $alt $/;
11:06 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
11:06 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«Can not get non-existent attribute '$!pos' on class 'Cursor'␤  in regex  at /tmp/tyXz46lJbE:1␤  in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9866␤  in block  at /tmp/tyXz46lJbE:1␤␤»
11:07 GlitchMr n: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blar blubb" ~~ /^ @array $/;
11:07 felher GlitchMr: it should. I just NYI, i guess :)
11:07 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
11:07 GlitchMr n: my @array = <blar blubb>; say ">>" ~~ /^ @array $/;
11:07 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
11:07 GlitchMr huh?
11:07 timotimo heh, whoops
11:07 timotimo that gist (?) of Match is pretty useless ;)
11:08 GlitchMr Well, it seems to work in Niecza
11:08 GlitchMr But why it still isn't implemented?
11:09 GlitchMr http://paste.uk.to/3e88451e
11:09 gfldex star: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ @array $/;
11:09 GlitchMr I'm crazy enough to use Jekyll
11:09 p6eval star 2012.07: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
11:09 GlitchMr It shouldn't match ever
11:09 timotimo n: say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ blubb|blar $/;
11:09 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(5) text(blubb) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
11:10 timotimo that's very different from the one where you matched @array
11:10 timotimo it seems Match() is nieczas way of saying "no match"
11:10 GlitchMr timotimo: are you sure you wanted /[^ blubb]|[blah $]/
11:10 timotimo i'm very much not
11:10 timotimo but that would explain the match
11:10 timotimo n: say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ (blubb|blar) $/;
11:10 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
11:10 timotimo ah, in that case, it would even be correct
11:11 timotimo n: my @array = <blar blubb>; say "blubb blar" ~~ /^ @array /;
11:11 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(5) text(blubb) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
11:12 gfldex is there any reason why you stick that stuff into a regexp?
11:14 GlitchMr Just wondering, if my array would look like (/./, /../) would it match one or two charcters when inserted to regexp?
11:14 felher gfldex: not for those little examples :) but for someting like "regex date { (\d\d?) '.'? \h* (@month-names) , to match someting like "7. Decemeber". :)
11:15 gfldex i would do that with a subrule
11:15 gfldex because i doubt the month-names change at runtime
11:16 GlitchMr ('a', 'b') should be converted into ['a'|'b'] dynamically
11:16 GlitchMr Simple as that
11:17 GlitchMr If I do / @array+ / it should do what I mean
11:17 GlitchMr And + only on last element isn't what I mean
11:18 felher gfldex: if you need @month-names somewhere else in your program, you already got it. There is no need for writing them down again.
11:18 felher Yeah, according to spec /@array/ is the same as /[@array[0] | @array[1] | ... ]/
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12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: 1f662c9 | (Felix Herrmann)++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: change constructor of Date to use default values for year/month/day
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1f662c9aa6
12:13 felher moritz++ :)
12:13 moritz felher++ for the patch
12:13 JimmyZ_ rn: for (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) -> $x, $y? = 0 { say "$x $y";}
12:13 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«1 2␤3 4␤»
12:14 p6eval ..rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«1 2␤3 4␤5 0␤»
12:14 moritz r: say Date.new(2012)
12:14 p6eval rakudo d71ad1: OUTPUT«Default constructor only takes named arguments␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:609␤  in block  at /tmp/xz3q5yj59f:1␤␤»
12:16 dalek doc: a90f472 | moritz++ | lib/Date.pod:
12:16 dalek doc: [Date] fix/update constructor signature
12:16 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a90f47293b
12:24 moritz http://continuousdelivery.com/2012/08/why​-software-development-methodologies-suck/
12:26 arnsholt r: sub foo { nqp::isnull([]) }
12:26 p6eval rakudo d71ad1:  ( no output )
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12:29 moritz ok, bad news: I can't attend YAPC::EU
12:29 moritz and I have two of the four accepted Perl 6 talks :(
12:29 dalek nqp: 553ee86 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/ (2 files):
12:29 dalek nqp: Expose nativecall write-barriering through an nqp::op.
12:29 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/553ee862f3
12:29 moritz does anybody want to do one of my talks for me? (or both :-)
12:29 moritz I have one on exceptions (40 minutes) and one on documentation (20 minutes)
12:30 moritz http://act.yapc.eu/ye2012/talk/4055
12:30 moritz http://act.yapc.eu/ye2012/talk/4202
12:35 dalek zavolaj: 3bf6712 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | / (3 files):
12:35 dalek zavolaj: Expose refresh op through function, tests for refresh().
12:35 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/3bf67129e4
12:36 masak moritz: aww :(
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12:39 moritz "aww" indeed
12:39 tadzik sad :(
12:39 jnthn :(
12:39 jnthn moritz: Woulda been really nice to see you again. Hopefully some other time... :)
12:40 masak moritz: if jnthn takes one of your talks, I'll volunteer to take the other. unless pmichaud wants the other.
12:40 moritz or tadzik maybe?
12:40 masak or tadzik.
12:40 tadzik but I'm scared of talks! :)
12:40 masak anyway, I volunteer to one of them.
12:40 masak ok, tadzik clearly wants one.
12:41 moritz masak: nothing against you, but you already have two talks accepted, no?
12:41 masak aye. consider me a last resort.
12:41 GlitchMr http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63913412/commenting.png
12:41 GlitchMr Seems to work...
12:41 moritz tadzik: which one do you want? :-)
12:41 masak GlitchMr: nice!
12:41 GlitchMr I'm testing comments box :)
12:42 GlitchMr This is very simple blog layout, but as long it works
12:42 moritz jnthn, pmichaud: what about you? want to take over a talk from me?
12:43 moritz starting simple is good
12:44 GlitchMr The only CSS3 thing there is box-shadow
12:44 * masak <3 the Perl 6 community
12:44 GlitchMr But that's really small thing :)
12:44 tadzik GlitchMr: is that written in Perl 6?
12:44 GlitchMr No, it isn't
12:45 GlitchMr I plan to use glitchmr.github.com for that
12:45 GlitchMr So, it uses Jekyll...
12:45 tadzik cool
12:45 tadzik moritz: why, a shorter one :)
12:45 GlitchMr I just want something that works...
12:45 GlitchMr mowyw would work too, but whatever :)
12:45 tadzik if there's no one better to take it
12:45 tadzik I didn't even contribute to the docs yet
12:46 moritz docs is shorter :-)
12:46 moritz let's wait until pmichaud shows up
12:47 moritz tadzik: take is a cue to start contributing to docs :-)
12:47 masak GlitchMr: my blogging platform is based on Jekyll. (that's why it's called "psyde", like "Perl Six Mr Hyde", get it?)
12:47 masak GlitchMr: but I'm not yet ready to package it and recommend it to others.
12:48 GlitchMr I like design of your site, masak
12:48 masak thank you.
12:48 GlitchMr Especially typography
12:49 masak I stole fairly liberally from http://tomayko.com/ , to be honest.
12:49 GlitchMr Actually, I should use less gray in my layouts, but whatever :P
12:50 GlitchMr It's still more colorful than my pastebin (paste.uk.to?)
12:51 GlitchMr I have feeling that this title won't be possible to search on Google or DuckDuckGo, but I don't care about SEO :P
12:56 moritz https://twitter.com/_Tomalak/st​atus/231305055742070784/photo/1
12:58 moritz and http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/11/this-is-w​hat-happens-when-you-let-developers-create-ui.html
12:58 moritz in the latter I like it that there's another button for "Pro Mode" :-)
12:58 GlitchMr This is obviously the webpage done correct way: http://glitchmr.pl/~smith/
12:58 GlitchMr (well, actually it's old thing, but whatever :P)
13:00 moritz Su-Shee's twitter feed is a regular source of delight for me :-)
13:00 GlitchMr ... finally that "Bulk Rename Utility" picture loaded...
13:00 GlitchMr You know, I would prefer command line interface
13:01 GlitchMr You know, Perl
13:01 GlitchMr Or even... PHP
13:02 moritz rename 's/\.txt$/.log/' *
13:02 moritz yes, perl is handy :-)
13:02 GlitchMr You know, foreach(new RecursiveIteratorIterator(new RecursiveDirectoryIterator($dir))) { }
13:03 GlitchMr But seriously... RecursiveIteratorIterator O_o?
13:03 jnthn yo dawg...
13:04 GlitchMr as $file
13:04 GlitchMr Forgot about this, but whatever
13:04 GlitchMr Without RecursiveIteratorIterator it works... except it's not recursive
13:06 masak I read a quotation today: "It isn't that they can't see the solution. It is that they can't see the problem." -- G. K. Chesterton, The Scandal of Father Brown (1935)
13:06 GlitchMr I once attempted to make recursive PHP tokenizer
13:06 masak made me think about PHP.
13:06 GlitchMr Result: https://github.com/Dirbaio/ABXD/blob/m​aster/tools/lib/recursivetokenizer.php
13:07 GlitchMr This is my attempt to statistically parse PHP files in order to generate tools which for example generate translations
13:08 GlitchMr But... somehow it works
13:13 moritz r: say Iterable.^mro
13:13 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«Iterable() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
13:13 moritz r: say Iterator.^mro
13:13 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«Iterator() Iterable() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
13:14 moritz pmichaud: I find it dubious that Iterable inherits from Cool. That might work out well for core types, but might cause problems for non-core types that want to be iterable
13:14 jnthn I think Iterable is meant to be a role
13:14 jnthn Eventually
13:16 moritz and Iterator too?
13:16 jnthn No, Iterator is probably a class.
13:16 moritz I think roles fit better for both of them
13:19 moritz r: say Range.^mro
13:19 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«Range() Iterable() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
13:20 moritz I thought Range was also its own iterator? shouldn't it inherit from Iterator then?
13:20 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
13:20 moritz r: say Hash.^mro
13:20 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«Hash() EnumMap() Iterable() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
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13:41 arnsholt jnthn: BTW, I've been thinking of starting on some proper documentation for Zavolaj. You have any thoughts on what the proper way to do that would be?
13:44 * masak .oO( show, don't tell )
13:45 arnsholt Troo
13:45 arnsholt But also thinking of purely practical matters, like where the docs live
13:45 moritz pod6 in NativeCall.pm6
13:45 masak +1
13:46 arnsholt I could go with inline POD, but a lot of the things we want to document are actually not implemented in Zavolaj, but NQP
13:46 moritz a user doesn't care where it's implemented
13:46 arnsholt Although, I guess that's not necessarily a problem
13:47 moritz a user cares for the API she uses
13:47 JimmyZ pod6 in NQP
13:47 arnsholt No. Docs in NQP are definitely not an option
13:48 arnsholt moritz: Definitely
13:49 JimmyZ docs dir in Zavolaj ?
13:49 masak arnsholt: here's the thing: your job is to pretend really hard to be a user thirsting for information, and then putting the information where the user is likely to go, and have it be of the nature that the user is likely to need.
13:49 arnsholt pod6 in NativeCall.pm6 it is =)
13:50 arnsholt Or possibly NativeCall.pod6
13:50 arnsholt Since I suspect the docs may end up being at least as long as the code
13:50 masak "f you have extra docs (in addition to the Pod docs in your module(s)), create a doc directory for them." -- http://wiki.perl6.org/Create%​20and%20Distribute%20Modules
13:50 masak If*
13:50 moritz that's all fine, but do we support installing docs from a doc dir?
13:50 masak arnsholt: the docs being at least as long as the code doesn't stop most CPAN modules from putting the docs right in the .pm file.
13:51 moritz perl6/doc has all the docs in .pod files in lib/
13:55 arnsholt Hmm. I think the conclusion is: stop thinking, start writing
13:55 arnsholt As always, when it comes to me and writing stuff, I guess ^_^
13:56 masak cult of done.
13:57 PerlJam arnsholt++ (does karma encourage you to start writing?  ;)
13:58 PerlJam arnsholt: fwiw, I'd probably go with NativeCall.pod6
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14:00 TBA hi all, quick p6 question
14:00 masak shoot
14:00 arnsholt PerlJam: Karma isn't an important motivator for me, but thanks for the thought =)
14:00 TBA i can do this: my $a = sub { "abc" }, and pass $a to a method as a parameter
14:00 masak TBA: aye.
14:00 TBA how do I refer to one inside a class, i.e.
14:01 TBA class X { method Y { "abc"; } };
14:01 TBA and pass X.Y() as a parameter?
14:01 moritz X.^find_method('Y')
14:01 TBA that wouldn't pass to the instance though right?
14:02 moritz it is not done often for methods, because then you have to supply invocant yourself
14:02 masak r: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" }; method bar($method) { say "calling method $method.name()..."; $method() } }; A.new.bar( A.^find_method('foo') )
14:02 moritz (invocant = the object on which the method is called)
14:02 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«calling method foo...␤Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤  in method foo at /tmp/3oQxpnOjit:1␤  in method bar at /tmp/3oQxpnOjit:1␤  in block  at /tmp/3oQxpnOjit:1␤␤»
14:02 masak r: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" }; method bar($method) { say "calling method $method.name()..."; self.$method() } }; A.new.bar( A.^find_method('foo') )
14:02 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«calling method foo...␤OH HAI␤»
14:02 masak \o/
14:03 PerlJam Apparently the invocant is very important  :)
14:03 moritz if you want to supply your own invcant, you can also pass  { $obj.Y }  to the sub
14:03 TBA hm, neat, but no easier way? my specific use case is to pass a method to HTTP::Server::Simple::PSGI's app parameter, but a method of a class instance
14:03 TBA i.e.
14:03 TBA my $app = App.new; given HTTP::Server::Simple::PSGI.new(81) {         .host = '0.0.0.0';         .app();         .run; }
14:03 TBA or do I just need to write a sub that dispatches to the method in the instance and pass that in?
14:04 moritz that's the easiest way
14:04 moritz though a block will do
14:04 TBA the sub bit I get, how would I do it as a block?
14:04 moritz as a sub:  sub () { $obj.app }    as a block:  { $obj.app }
14:05 moritz erm, wait
14:05 masak TBA: "a method of a class instance"? instances don't have methods, classes do.
14:05 moritz somehow your question doesn't really fit the example you posted
14:05 masak indeed.
14:05 moritz given $obj { ... } sets $_ = $obj
14:06 moritz so   .app()   calls $_.app, which is now  $obj.app
14:06 moritz it's not passing a code object to anything at all
14:07 masak yes, the use case doesn't require any trickery with method objects.
14:08 masak it Just Works.
14:09 dalek doc: e9f2f73 | moritz++ | lib/Itera (2 files):
14:09 dalek doc: Iterator, Iterable  (very incomplete)
14:09 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e9f2f73e2d
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14:12 TBA ok let me try again :)
14:12 arnsholt masak: Cult of done was pretty good. Thanks
14:13 TBA here's what I had:
14:14 TBA my $app = sub { return [200, ["Content-Type" => "text/plain"], "This is plain text"]; }; given HTTP::Server::Simple::PSGI.new(81) { .host = "0.0.0.0"; .app($app); .run; }
14:15 masak arnsholt: yeah, I like it.
14:15 TBA what I'd like to do is make the "my $app = sub" bit part of a class, e.g.
14:15 masak arnsholt: http://strangelyconsistent​.org/blog/the-cult-of-done
14:15 TBA class A { method run ($env) { return [200, [ "Content-Type" => "text/plain" ], "This is plain text"]; } }
14:15 TBA then
14:15 TBA my $app = App.new; given HTTP::Server::Simple::PSGI.new(81) { .host = "0.0.0.0"; .app(???); .run; }
14:16 TBA im just confused about what I put in the .app() bit
14:17 masak TBA: I still have the feeling that you're trying to fit a square piece into a round hole somehow.
14:17 masak but I can't quite put my finger on it.
14:17 TBA er, well, thats quite possible...
14:18 [Coke] are you trying to pass in the new PSGI object? $_ then.
14:18 moritz what does the documentation say?
14:19 TBA no, I'm trying to pass in a method inside an object to .app when constructing the PSGI object
14:19 masak TBA: just post the object on which the method can be called!
14:19 masak TBA: then call the method in the callee.
14:19 masak why dislodge the method and pass only it?
14:20 TBA your probably right
14:20 TBA but that would require changing PSGI module?
14:20 masak if you have something callable *inside of a class*, it's probably because it needs its surrounding object environment, no?
14:20 TBA yes, but I was hoping t.... oooohh wait
14:20 TBA i was hoping to pass the invocant too
14:20 TBA but i've just realised how stupid i'm being :)
14:21 masak if you want to pass the invocant, then a sub is your best bet.
14:21 masak like moritz++ said.
14:21 moritz or you just pass the object
14:21 moritz then you also have the invocant :-)
14:21 moritz but you need to know which method to call
14:21 TBA I think I should probably just construct the PSGI inside the App class...
14:22 TBA i'm confusing myself now, long day! i'm not even sure what I want anymore....
14:23 TBA I don't think I even need (or want) the App class, I can just use a sub like I was in the first place!
14:23 TBA will have a think about this over the weekend, I might be back first thing monday though :p
14:23 TBA thanks all :)
14:23 masak np
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14:49 masak "If you declare that you support a platform, you don't just TODO failing tests for it when introducing a mostly unrelated feature. If you do, the support for the platform is second class [...]" -- moritz++ on parrot-dev
14:52 pmichaud moritz++ # parrot-dev post
14:52 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:52 colomon o
14:52 masak pmichaud! \o/
14:52 * colomon is apparently too tired to lift an arm
14:52 masak colomon: that's the first *non*-wave I've seen on the channel!
14:52 colomon \o/
14:52 pmichaud colomon: either that, or you're just disarmed by my presence :-)
14:52 masak colomon++ # novelty
14:52 masak pmichaud++ # punitude
14:53 pmichaud moritz: I'll take over a talk.
14:54 * pmichaud skims backscroll, sees his name
14:54 masak \o/
14:54 pmichaud I'll happily take either talk.
14:54 * pmichaud reads backscroll for detail
14:55 masak moritz: will you still be able to write proceedings for your talks? or were you not planning to do that?
14:56 pmichaud I'm somewhat assuming that "taking the talk" also involves "write the proceedings" if needed :)
14:56 masak me too; just thought I'd raise the matter.
14:57 jnthn morning, pmichaud
15:00 pmichaud I'll also happily defer to anyone else that wants to take a talk.  I'm attending YAPC::EU regardless, although I do so love to have an opportunity to present.  :)
15:00 pmichaud ...and I'm very sad that moritz++ apparently won't make it.  :-(
15:01 pmichaud at this point I don't want Range to inherit from Iterator; the latest incarnation of flattening behavior seems to make a strong distinction between Iterable and Iterator
15:01 pmichaud the point about Iterable needing to be !~ Cool is an extremely good one.
15:04 pmichaud of the two talks, I feel like I'd prefer the docs talks.
15:04 pmichaud *talk
15:04 jnthn If I'm gonna take one, I'd be more suited to the exceptions one.
15:05 * jnthn should check what's in it though
15:05 pmichaud yeah, I can do either talk; but I'm slightly more passionate about the docs one :)
15:06 * jnthn is better at more technical talks :)
15:07 pmichaud jnthn: yes, and given that you had to work on exceptions for the qast conversion, I suspect you're more tuned to it than I am at the moment.
15:07 * masak briefly considers writing both his talks but letting tadzik deliver one of them...
15:09 jnthn pmichaud: "had to" captures my feelings on it quite well :P
15:09 jnthn (I like what moritz++ has done, and the Perl 6 exception model. But the mapping of it down to the VM is little fun to hack on...)
15:10 jnthn Thankfully the talk seems quite clearly about the things I like. :)
15:14 pmichaud (in fact, p6doc was a talk I considered proposing, but didn't because I knew that moritz++ would be proposing the talk :)
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15:37 [Coke] Anyone have a *bsd setup available for continuous integration for rakudo/parrot? could we perhaps setup another vm on feather running a *bsd?
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16:25 PerlJam http://xkcd.com/1090/
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16:30 masak *lol*
16:31 au that was remarkably context-free.
16:33 GlitchMr I once have made language where every program is valid grammatically
16:33 * geekosaur *headdesk* at context-free "grammar"s
16:34 PerlJam be free from the tyranny of context!
16:34 PerlJam (use Perl ;)
16:34 UncleFester6 r: my $x = Buf.new(10, 13); my $y = Buf.new(65, 10, 13); if $x ne $y {say "ok"}; say $y[1 .. 2].perl; if $x eq $y[1 .. 2] { say "ok" }
16:34 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«ok␤(10, 13)␤Cannot use a Buf as a string, but you called the Str method on it␤  in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:6789␤  in method Stringy at src/gen/CORE.setting:726␤  in sub infix:<eq> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1038␤  in block  at /tmp/OOHiXZ_I31:1␤␤»…
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16:35 UncleFester6 with the eq at the end - am I asking for a feature or can I complain about a bug?
16:35 PerlJam Hmm.
16:37 pmurias jnthn: what would be the best way to make the js backend pluggable into the normal rakudo? (so I won't have to maintain/merge over the fork)
16:37 pmurias jnthn: by pluggable I mean having it in a seperate repo but making it possible to "combine" it with rakudo somehow
16:38 pmurias the backend is mostly isolate in one file for now
16:39 masak UncleFester6: yeah, I don't think Bufs should be comparable with 'eq' or 'ne'. too confusing.
16:39 masak they're really more lists in that regard.
16:40 UncleFester6 masak: Does not agree with S34 see http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/​Containers.html#Buf_Operators
16:40 UncleFester6 s/S34/S32
16:40 GlitchMr perl6: sub infix:[]($a, $b) { say 'GRAMMAR!' #`(I know that it's invalid according to STD, but who cares? ) }; 'GRAMMAR' '!!!'
16:40 p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $a is declared but not used at /tmp/AO8ZwnAMAy line 1:â�¤------> [32msub infix:[]([33mâ��[31m$a, $b) { say 'GRAMMAR!' #`(I know that [0mâ�¤  $b is declared but not used at /tmp/AO8ZwnAMAy line 1:â�¤------> [32msub infix:[]($a, [33mâ��…
16:40 p6eval ..rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«GRAMMAR!␤»
16:41 GlitchMr std: sub infix:[]($a, $b) { say 'GRAMMAR!' #`(I know that it's invalid according to STD, but who cares? ) }; 'GRAMMAR' '!!!'
16:41 p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Null operator is not allowed at /tmp/HZmAGkXjk6 line 1:�------> [32msub infix:[][33m�[31m($a, $b) { say 'GRAMMAR!' #`(I know that[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 40m�»
16:41 PerlJam UncleFester6: $y[1..2] isn't a Buf though.
16:43 PerlJam r: my $x = Buf.new(10, 13); my $y = Buf.new(65, 10, 13); my $z = Buf.new($y[1..2]);  say "ok" if $x eq $z;
16:43 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«ok␤»
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16:45 UncleFester6 r: my $y = Buf.new(65, 10, 13); say $y[1 .. 2].WHAT
16:45 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
16:46 PerlJam Though that error message was LTA as far as helping you figure out what's going on.  That's the real bug IMHO
16:46 jnthn pmurias: One way is to just have a different frontend.
16:46 jnthn pmurias: You'll note there's a src/main.nqp
16:47 jnthn pmurias: You can have it declare a subclass of Perl6::Compiler that has a js method, and then write it up as a compilation stage.
16:47 jnthn *wire
16:48 jnthn That is to say, make a copy of main.nqp and call it js.nqp or so
16:48 jnthn Somewhere I made a gist where I showed cognominal++ how to do something like this but to get it to spit out the parse tree as JSON instead...
16:50 jnthn pmurias: https://gist.github.com/3079610
16:52 TimToady r: my $x = Buf.new(10, 13); my $y = Buf.new(65, 10, 13); if $x ne $y {say "ok"}; if $x eq $y.subbuf(1,2) { say "ok" }
16:52 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«ok␤ok␤»
16:52 PerlJam subbuf?  nice.
16:54 masak any good reason .[] doesn't do what .subbuf does?
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16:54 sisar o/
16:55 PerlJam any good reason .[] doesn't do what .substr does?   ;)
16:55 masak sisar! \o/
16:55 masak PerlJam: yes. strings are scalars in Perl.
16:55 masak they don't have list nature.
16:55 TimToady because listy things stringify with spaces?
16:57 UncleFester6 Search for subbuf in synopses came up empty.  Where documented?
16:58 UncleFester6 nice feature
16:59 PerlJam UncleFester6: seems like there should be a S32-setting-library/Buf.pod  doesn't it?
16:59 masak I hadn't heard about it before, and I think it looks like a poor man's .[]
16:59 masak what's the use of being able to overload .[] et al. if we don't even do it ourselves in the core library?
17:00 masak s/use/point/
17:01 jnthn r: my $b = Buf.new(65, 66, 67); say $b[1] # you mean like this?
17:01 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«66␤»
17:02 jnthn The point of subbuf is presumably that you want another Buf back, whereas a slice gives you a Parcel.
17:02 masak yeah.
17:02 masak I'm wondering if .[] couldn't give a Buf back, too.
17:03 jnthn Only in the slice case?
17:03 jnthn That may be a little too surprising...
17:03 masak hm.
17:03 TimToady druther have it consistent with array slicing
17:03 masak yeah, maybe that's not possible...
17:06 moritz there's http://doc.perl6.org/type/Buf
17:06 moritz in some places doc.perl6.org is more complete or accurate than the specs
17:07 sorear good * #perl6
17:07 UncleFester6 also http://perlcabal.org/syn/S​32/Containers.html#Methods
17:09 PerlJam does anyone else find the sentence "Decode the Buf into a Str." weird?   I always think of Buf->Str as *encoding* and Str->Buf as *decoding*
17:09 [Coke] perhaps "transform"
17:09 masak PerlJam: no, Str->Buf is encoding, however you happen to think of it :)
17:10 masak PerlJam: the encoding in question is finding integers to represent the characters.
17:10 PerlJam aye.  that's decoding  :)
17:10 masak nope.
17:10 moritz PerlJam: is UTF-8 a string encoding, or a string decoding?
17:11 masak when you choose "encoding" in your browser, you're choosing the particular mapping of characters to integers.
17:11 masak or to bytes, depending how you view the integers.
17:12 PerlJam I tend to think of the numbers as "raw" and encoding them turns them into something with more meaning (a utf8 string).
17:12 cognominal_ the material is already encoded within  a Buf, the Str just makes the encoding explicit.
17:14 huf on the contrary. conceptually, it does away with the encoding
17:14 cognominal_ well I suppose that with compression there is an more explicit step between a Buf and a Str
17:14 huf and suddenly you have a series of codepoints
17:14 TimToady in crypto, the encoding is what you send through enemy lines
17:14 TimToady you decode it on the other end to get the plaintext
17:15 masak PerlJam: I used to think backwards about those terms too.
17:15 TimToady so a Str is plaintext, a Buf can hold an encoding
17:15 masak PerlJam: it's not about which one has more meaning, it's just about different formats.
17:15 cognominal_ what is plain text, it is text with a known encoding?
17:16 cognominal_ you need a set of chars, a mapping and an encoding anyway
17:16 moritz cognominal_: it's text in abstract, without having to care about encodings
17:16 huf yes, ultimately everything is a series of bytes
17:16 huf but this is about APIs
17:17 masak aye.
17:17 cognominal_ set a chars is simplifying things with unicode anyway.
17:17 masak the point of the Str type (and the strict division with Buf) is that we want to hide encodings and just focus on characters.
17:17 pmichaud I think of it more along the lines of "Str is the abstract representation of a string.  Buf is a specific encoding."
17:18 pmichaud thue one encodes a Str to produce a Buf
17:18 pmichaud and decodes a buf to produce a Str
17:18 cognominal_ surprising how slippery this concepts are.
17:18 pmichaud basically, if you're thinking that strings in Perl 6 have an encoding, you're doing it rong :-)
17:19 huf or mucking about deep in the internals :)
17:19 huf i assume they have some encoding there, but that's fairly irrelevant ;)
17:19 moritz aye
17:19 cognominal_ When you got a Str, you have an API to manipulates stuff. With a buffer it sounds just like a stream of bytes.
17:19 moritz well, both have APIs
17:19 PerlJam pmichaud: actually that last statement helps rewire my brain the most.
17:20 cognominal_ moritz, yes but Buffer API is low level.
17:20 moritz correct
17:21 moritz a buffer doesn't know about things like case folding
17:21 huf it's got an "encoding" too, but it's just bytes. at least it isnt apples or bits of pocket lint...
17:21 cognominal_ like says pmichaud, the Str API relieve you from low level details implementation like encoding.
17:22 PerlJam "encoding" is an extrinsic property of the string, not an intrinsic one.
17:22 pmichaud note that Buf doesn't have to be bytes, as some values in a Buf are larger than a byte.
17:22 pmichaud s/are/can be
17:22 UncleFester6 masak: I think that when you select an encoding in your browser you are choosing a mapping of integers (bytes) to characters
17:22 masak aye.
17:22 masak that's a better way of putting it.
17:22 pmichaud r:  say "Buf".succ   # also note
17:23 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«Bug␤»
17:23 masak :P
17:23 PerlJam it's a bufbug
17:23 masak I consistently mistype "Buf" as "Bug", but I'm so used to it now that I catch virtually all of the typos.
17:24 pmichaud I was thinking about bufs a bit yesterday w.r.t.  the io_cleanup branch in Parrot, specially the ".encoding on sockets" part.  Do we think that other platforms are likely to provide encoding on sockets?
17:24 GlitchMr https://robert.duckduckgo.com/?q=perl6+str
17:24 pmichaud that whole notion of encoding on sockets feels a bit weird to me.
17:26 pmichaud anyway, I'm afk for a bit
17:26 UncleFester6 Planning to file two RT's.  If no subbuf documented in a few days then RT for that.  Also LTA error message for [] compare as Str method for Buf not the problem.
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17:46 moritz pmichaud: I'd find it great if we supported both binary operations on sockets and a Str interface
17:47 moritz pmichaud: for example for multi-byte encodings it makes a whole lot of sense to buffer incomplete multi-byte sequences
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18:04 [Coke] hurm. roast-data seems to have not completed properly today, redoing by hand.
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18:10 [Coke] lots of HP fans here: Anyone remember this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-153​024/How-Harry-Potter-gave-Catie-dying-wish.html ? I worked with Larry at my current job, he just died a few weeks ago. :|
18:12 seldon I would be very careful about believing anything that has "dailymail.co.uk" in the url.
18:12 [Coke] seldon: thank you for the concern, but this is an actual thing.
18:14 moritz [Coke]: :(
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18:15 * masak feels more like a HPMoR fan than a HP fan...
18:15 moritz me too, but before I was a HP fan
18:16 masak I've always liked HP. the books more than the movies. they're not great literature, but they're exciting and entertaining.
18:16 moritz aye
18:16 [Coke] not to mention, also involves 2 different people dying to cancer. Your desire to correct might be a little off base here.
18:16 [Coke] s/to cancer/of cancer/
18:17 masak sorry, I didn't meant to correct. :/
18:17 masak it is a touching article.
18:17 colomon I'm kind of jealous of kids today, so many more great kids' books these days....
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18:23 moritz colomon: otoh kids these days will have a much harder time getting chemicals for their chemistry kits, and all the other thins that are considered too dangerous these days
18:24 PerlJam That just means they need to be more creative!
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19:17 dalek perl6-roast-data: 7334254 | coke++ | / (4 files):
19:17 dalek perl6-roast-data: today
19:17 dalek perl6-roast-data:
19:17 dalek perl6-roast-data: this run done from the command line instead of cron, so
19:17 dalek perl6-roast-data: minor differences in results/output.
19:17 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/733425462c
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20:01 masak rn: say so '_' ~~ /<alpha>/
20:01 p6eval rakudo 1f662c, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:01 sirrobert What are the current options (if any) for shared-memory stuff in p6?
20:01 sirrobert shared between two processes, in particular
20:01 masak rn: say so '_' ~~ /<+alpha-[_]>/
20:01 p6eval rakudo 1f662c, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:02 masak is there a shorter way to say the above regex?
20:02 masak sirrobert: I know Niecza supports threading. I haven't tried it, so I don't know how well shared-memory stuff works.
20:02 masak sirrobert: should be no worse than the underlying VM's support, I guess.
20:02 jnthn Well, that's not between processes though :)
20:02 masak oh!
20:03 masak I missed that bit.
20:03 sirrobert =)
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20:04 jnthn What are you needing to do, ooc?
20:04 masak jnthn++ # de-X/Y-ing
20:04 jnthn We do have some IPC bits (sockets, and I think japhb++ added pipes recently)
20:04 PerlJam r: say so "_" ~~ /<:Letter>/;
20:04 p6eval rakudo 1f662c: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:05 sirrobert So ... let's see how to say it succinctly...
20:05 PerlJam masak: dunno if that's precisely what you wanted
20:05 sorear niecza will NOT support putting objects in shared memory
20:05 sorear the GC wouldn't like that very much
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20:06 sirrobert I've divided our product into two parts/projects.  Information travels this way:
20:06 sorear niecza MAY suport shared byte arrays with mmap and clr interop, or not, because the clr's support for pointers + reflection is dicey
20:06 masak PerlJam: it probably is.
20:06 sorear for some idiotic reason pointers are outside of the clr type system and can't be coerced to Object
20:06 masak PerlJam: what's the difference between <+alpha-[_]> and <Letter>, ooc?
20:06 sorear even though both Int32 and Int64 autobox
20:08 sirrobert jnthn:  were you talking to me or masak about what we are needing to do? =)  (and what does ooc mean?)
20:08 jnthn sirrobert: You :)
20:08 sirrobert ok heh.
20:08 jnthn "out of curiosity"
20:09 diakopter sorear: is this bad? Marshal::PtrToStructure
20:09 PerlJam masak: I'm not entirely sure.   All I know is that <:Letter> matches the unicode property "Letter" and "_" isn't one of those  :)
20:09 sirrobert jnthn:  our product is an analytics engine.  It does some ... heavy lifting and lots of conceptual manipulation.
20:10 sirrobert I'm writing the front-end (server) in perl6, which will be used to map real-world concepts (in the user's mind) to technological concepts (that the back-end knows about).
20:10 sirrobert the back end is lisp, and does a lot of the analysis part.
20:11 sirrobert when the user makes a request in the form of "real-world" ideas, the front end (p6) translates it into some instructions to the back end.  The back-end gives a back a token.
20:11 masak PerlJam: oh, <:Letter>. right.
20:11 sirrobert when the back-end is done calculating stuff, it (async) posts the data back to the front end, passing along the token.
20:12 masak I think I will go with <:Letter> for my program. it conveys intent the best, IMO.
20:12 sirrobert then the front-end completes the user's request with the answer (translated back into user's real-world concepts).
20:12 masak PerlJam++ # <:Letter>
20:12 sirrobert I want a p6-ish way of handling the async bit of this.
20:14 sirrobert In the current design idea, the front-end keeps the request open until the back-end sends the results.
20:14 sirrobert but the results will get posted into a different process (probably?).  I guess I could have a single process handling everything...
20:14 jnthn How are requests being passed to the frontend in the first place ooc?
20:14 moritz what is a "request" in this sense?
20:15 sirrobert JSON
20:15 sirrobert it's a JSON specification of a particular kind of analysis on particular data.
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20:17 sirrobert =)
20:18 jnthn sirrobert: How is the request arriving, though?
20:18 sirrobert something like REST
20:19 sirrobert sending the data to a port via http
20:19 jnthn Using Perl 6 HTTP server module?
20:19 sirrobert mmm maybe
20:19 sirrobert sure
20:19 sirrobert (we're still in the design phase for this part =)
20:20 jnthn tadzik++'s https://github.com/tadzik/MuEvent may be worth a look
20:20 sirrobert looking now
20:21 sirrobert hmm thanks
20:21 jnthn Also, I dunno how you're invoking the lisp code
20:21 jnthn (or what the options are there)
20:21 sirrobert clojure in a separate process running some kind of server
20:22 sirrobert also REST
20:23 jnthn Hm, so essentially you're doing filtering of HTTP request/response :)
20:23 sirrobert for this part, yes =)
20:23 PerlJam sirrobert: why does it have to be async? Will the front-end be a GUI or something?
20:23 sirrobert PerlJam: it *can* be, but might not.
20:23 sirrobert some of the analysis is fast, some is slow
20:24 sirrobert allows for canceling things if needed, and other features
20:28 [Coke] rakudo failure: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-dat​a/blob/master/rakudo_summary.out#L2075
20:28 [Coke] (hurm. easier to paste this:
20:28 [Coke] S02-types/bool.t aborted 1 test(s)
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20:40 dalek doc: 97dabe1 | moritz++ | README:
20:40 dalek doc: [README] add vision; update outdated answer
20:40 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/97dabe181b
20:41 masak moritz++ # well-scoped vision
20:43 moritz lexically scoped :-)
20:44 masak :P
20:44 jnthn .oO( I hope we don't block on achieving it... )
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21:04 moritz actually it was a discussion with tadzik++ that made me think about and write down the vision
21:06 * masak .oO( tadzik++ is 20/20 )
21:17 dalek doc: 681795c | jnthn++ | lib/objects.pod:
21:17 dalek doc: Try fleshing out the classes section a little.
21:17 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/681795c964
21:22 jnthn moritz: Is documenting Metamodel:: bits in doc reasonable?
21:22 * jnthn may do that a bit in the coming $time-period :)
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22:32 masak good ♞, #perl6.
22:32 tadzik good knight masak
22:32 * masak .oO( dobry rycerz )
22:33 tadzik (:
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