Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-08-22

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00:48 raiph p5p6 vs p6p5 # you've already got blogs and tweets getting this wrong. i urge you to immediately consider changing the name, letting everyone know the new name, and editing existing blogs asap.
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01:09 raiph strawman suggestion: 5u6
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01:22 pmichaud raiph: what aspects of "5u6" do you find make it better than "p6p5"?
01:26 [Coke] or we could do it both ways. <shrug>
01:27 [Coke] (we could put a tweetfeed on perl6.org somewhere, also.)
01:32 pmichaud yes, I figure doing it both ways works out fine.  I will say that the choice
01:32 pmichaud oops
01:33 pmichaud I will say that the choice of "#p5p6" versus "#p6p5" was discussed and a consensus reached before choosing one.  I suspect mdk just got it backwards (as I do sometimes), which makes me feel like we should just adopt both forms :)
01:33 pmichaud after all, tmtowtdi :)
01:34 pmichaud also, on another topic, the big "5" on the yapceu t-shirts appeared on *all* of the conference t-shirts, not just the conference staff yellow ones.  :)
01:34 [Coke] if I ever get the pieces together for the twitefeed in here, I'll do it both ways.
01:35 pmichaud (it had been suggested that only the conference staff tees had 5's on them)
01:35 [Coke] looks like we'll have rakudo on vms soon. rurban++
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01:37 pmichaud I'll have the p6-versions of the t-shirts up on cafepress soon; I wanted to first check with some tpf officials about the onion on the shirt
01:38 [Coke] there may be issues, aye.
01:38 pmichaud well, apparently there aren't.  :-)
01:38 [Coke] the raptor is probably safer.
01:38 [Coke] ah. ok.
01:38 pmichaud at least for this particular design, they didn't have any issue with it
01:38 pmichaud (indeed, most of them asked where they could get one :)
01:38 [Coke] the amount of overage you're charging on the shirts might impact the decision.
01:38 colomon pmichaud++
01:39 [Coke] but IANA... somtehing.
01:39 pmichaud I'm thinking I won't do any overage.
01:39 pmichaud I just like the shirt and like to see people wearing it :)
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01:42 pmichaud also, iirc the raptor is intended to indicate p5, which would be a little incongruous on a p6-themed shirt :)
01:43 pmichaud but I could see one replacing the beer mug with a raptor and having an overprinted 5+6 on the reverse :)
01:43 pmichaud that might be a fun design to put together as well
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02:43 [Coke] 5+6? This perl goes to 11.
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03:13 DrEeevil sorear: niecza makefiles, not parallel-make safe :(
03:16 raiph pmichaud: the 5s only on supervisors tees comment came from me; i misinterpreted what i read and didn
03:19 raiph pmichaud: 5s only on supervisors tees comment was me. i misinterpreted the photo caption. /o\
03:20 raiph p5p6/p6p5 pros
03:21 raiph 1. that's what was agreed
03:21 raiph 2. that's what is now published
03:22 raiph 3. that's what is already set up
03:22 raiph 4. simple (especially if u allow both versions)
03:23 raiph 5. sorta puts emphasis on p6 (p6p5)
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03:24 raiph 6. logical order (p5p6)
03:24 raiph cons
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03:30 raiph 1. IF (a big if) this sticks as something associated with Perl reunification, it'll naturally end up branding that process, and (the following bit is subjective, very obviously) p5p6 doesn't appeal to me
03:32 raiph 2. If you don't double up with both p6p5 and p5p6, well, confusion will ensue, and the last thing Perl 6 needs to be associated with is confusion about p5 versus p6
03:33 raiph (or if not confusion, at least an easy target for ridicule)
03:35 raiph (sorry about my language being so assertive; what i mean is that confusion may ensue; may be an easy target etc.)
03:40 raiph 3. again, if you don't double up, p6p5 sends a not-so-subtle metamessage that it's really about p6, first and foremost. (of course, that might be exactly what you intended)
03:42 raiph 4. if you do double up, well, that also seems off to me -- "why didn't you pick a better name?"
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03:43 raiph pros of the strawman suggestion of 5u6
03:46 raiph 1. IF the p6p5 effort becomes known about in the broader Perl community, having a good name would matter, and i think a name like 5u6 would be better
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03:54 raiph 2. I can see Camelia's brother with a 5 on his right wing instead of the P (and leaning to his right and so on). so 5u6 or 5*6 or somesuch would work nicely. i realize this might horrify Larry -- if so, forget I said anything about Camelia ;)
03:54 raiph 3. the u in 5u6 can stand for something. i was thinking union (between p5 + p6), unique (what's unique about both p5 + p6), unicode (an important Perl strength), universal (the Perls are for general purpose programming).
03:56 raiph (getting out there, i imagine Camelia's brother's name is CamelIB, a philosophical camel that's a butterfly in another dimension...)
03:58 raiph 4. thinking tweets, i thought it might be better to do #perl #5u6 than #p6p5 #p5p6
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04:02 raiph out of pros/cons mode. could be 5x6, 5X6, 5n6, 5*6, 5&6, 5+6, etc.
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04:18 raiph .
04:18 raiph the tweet issue is actually what first had me thinking #p6p5 was a problem. first, it would be an ugly hack to say both (#p6p5 #p5p6). second, u get a fundamentally different effect if u tweet #perl #5u6 or whatever than any of #p6p5, #p5p6, #p6p5 #p5p6
04:20 raiph conversely, if you are consciously choosing to fly under the radar, #p6p5 is a good choice
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04:31 diakopter raiph: do you think use of the hashtag will go beyond a few uses?
04:36 raiph not sure. do u know if it was intended mostly just for those who met?
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04:46 raiph diakopter: i think, if the hashtag on twitter remains #p6p5, it will get much less twitter exposure than if it's #perl #5u6 or somesuch
04:46 diakopter no; I don't know
04:48 diakopter I think whichever tag a major blog post/announcement uses will get exposure as it's retweeted, so it doesn't matter much which one is chosen.  I think it'll be great when such a mass-retweeting does occur. MOARPERLPLZ
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05:04 raiph diakopter: agreed about rooting for mass exposure for a renewed 5+6 push
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05:13 moritz \o
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05:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 2193a86 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
05:50 dalek rakudo/nom: pass attribute name to X::Attribute::{No,}Package
05:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2193a86dde
05:50 dalek doc: e843601 | moritz++ | lib/X/Attribute/ (2 files):
05:50 dalek doc: X::Attribute::NoPackage, fiddle with X::Attribute::Package
05:50 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e843601c60
05:51 moritz nr: class A { my method x() { } };
05:51 p6eval rakudo 555a3e, niecza v19-31-g94c69fe:  ( no output )
05:51 moritz nr: class A { my method x() { } }; A.x
05:51 p6eval rakudo 555a3e, niecza v19-31-g94c69fe:  ( no output )
05:51 moritz is the 'my' simply ignored?
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06:00 dalek doc: 4275b25 | moritz++ | lib/X/A (3 files):
06:00 dalek doc: document three more error classes
06:00 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4275b253ae
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06:22 pmichaud current draft of my p6doc talk:  http://pmichaud.com/2012/pres/yapceu-p6doc
06:23 pmichaud comments welcomed
06:30 pmichaud I'm afk for a bit.
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06:42 moritz pmichaud: s:g/'Pod::Parser'/Pod::To/
06:42 moritz (slide 31)
06:43 moritz otherwise very nice, pmichaud++
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06:52 masak good morning, #perl6
06:53 moritz \o masak
06:58 masak pmichaud++ # nice slides; looking forward to the talk
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07:15 hoelzro o/
07:15 masak /o
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07:29 masak commute &
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07:39 felher pmichaud++ # i'm on slide.
07:39 felher Ah, and by the way, the talk looks nice too ;)
07:39 felher *'im on one slide
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07:57 dalek doc: 9b99b23 | moritz++ | lib/X/TypeCheck (4 files):
07:57 dalek doc: document TypeCheck error classes
07:57 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9b99b23b4b
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07:59 kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people
08:07 tadzik oh hai
08:07 phenny tadzik: 21 Aug 23:31Z <japhb> tell tadzik I just pushed a lot of stuff to panda; I suggest pulling and ./reboostrap.pl, and then enjoy my last few days of hacking.  :-)
08:07 phenny tadzik: 21 Aug 23:33Z <japhb> tell tadzik if you want to use the saved meta features on panda *itself* and its local-bootstrap, you should ./reboostrap.pl *twice*, because only after the first bootstrap will panda be saving all that info.
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08:15 tadzik japhb: okay, I'll take a look when I get to some Place of Power :)
08:16 tadzik japhb: argh, bootstrap broken on windows
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08:28 dalek rakudo/nom: c5f8b87 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
08:28 dalek rakudo/nom: include placeholder name in X::Signature::Placeholder
08:28 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c5f8b874fe
08:30 flexibeast Hey all. i've been searching through various synopses / documentation, and i can't seem to find what e.g. '*$x' means? ('$*x' i get, it's the case of the sigils reversed i'm not understanding.)
08:31 moritz flexibeast: *$x in which context?
08:31 TimToady that only works in a signature
08:31 moritz flexibeast: in a signature?
08:31 TimToady it means pull one variadic arg from the slurpy list
08:31 moritz TimToady: might be part of a regex too
08:31 flexibeast Yes, in sigs (from memory).
08:31 dalek doc: 79c17a1 | moritz++ | lib/X/ (4 files):
08:31 dalek doc: document more error types
08:31 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/79c17a1bb1
08:32 flexibeast TimToady: Ah okay, thanks. :-)
08:32 * TimToady is sitting in masak++'s macros talk
08:32 moritz http://doc.perl6.org/type/Signature might be of interest
08:33 moritz documenting all those error classes would be much faster if I didn't decide that about a third of them could be improved in the process
08:33 TimToady as long as it's done by Christmas...
08:34 flexibeast moritz: Groovy, thanks. :-)
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08:34 nwc10 gah. I've been indoctrinated
08:35 nwc10 I can't see $foo++; without thinking "no, pre-increment is better"
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08:37 moritz meh, why does 'git status' not automatically launch a pager, when all other git commands do?
08:38 shachaf git config --global pager.status true
08:39 hoelzro why do some people prefer pre-increment?
08:39 moritz easier to understand, faster
08:39 shachaf In C++ there are cases where it's slightly more efficient.
08:39 TimToady P5 optimizes $foo++ to ++$foo when the value is not used
08:39 moritz should we allow that in P6 too?
08:40 TimToady if the value is not used, there is not difference
08:40 TimToady *no
08:40 nwc10 but if it can't know (ie return value of subroutine) it can't, I thought? :-)
08:40 nwc10 er s/:-)//
08:40 nwc10 naughty fingers
08:40 moritz TimToady: only for the built-in prefix:<++> and postfix:<++>
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08:41 TimToady nwc10: the presumption is that if you put a value at the end of a sub, you want to return it
08:41 TimToady in that case the user would need to say 'sink $x++' or some such
08:42 TimToady or we probably just catch --> Sink in the declaration
08:42 moritz .oO( I ordered a kitchen but it just returns a Sink )
08:43 dalek doc: d57507b | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/ (2 files):
08:43 dalek doc: two more error classes
08:43 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d57507bb40
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09:04 hoelzro I can add a type constraint based on a role to a subroutine signature, right?
09:04 hoelzro ex. sub foo($value does Role) { ... }
09:05 moritz hoelzro: sub foo(Role $value) { }
09:05 moritz just like any other type constraints
09:07 hoelzro I see
09:07 hoelzro thanks
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09:12 hoelzro (whoever's been updating doc.perl6.org since last I looked)++
09:14 moritz what we really need is some kind of design for it
09:14 moritz and a bit of navigation etc.
09:17 hoelzro in time =)
09:17 hoelzro having the docs is nice
09:21 tadzik seen japhb
09:21 aloha japhb was last seen in #perl6 9 hours 47 mins ago saying "phenny, tell tadzik, if you want to use the saved meta features on panda *itself* and its local-bootstrap, you should ./reboostrap.pl *twice*, because only after the first bootstrap will panda be saving all that info.".
09:23 jnthn ohhai o/
09:23 moritz ohaio, jnthn
09:24 hoelzro o/ jnthn
09:24 hoelzro ohio!
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09:28 hoelzro so Parameter.ACCEPTS checks object identity?
09:28 hoelzro I would kind of expect it to check the parameter's type constraint against the given value
09:29 hoelzro oh, I needed to scroll further down =P
09:30 moritz note that it's not that easy
09:30 moritz sub f($x, $y where { $_ > $x * 2 } ) { }
09:30 moritz you can't check the second parameter in isolation
09:30 moritz you can only check whole signatures, in general
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09:34 smash masak++ # macros talk
09:36 TimToady r: sub f($x, $y where $y > $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1 2
09:36 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/bH_nDZBA10:1␤»
09:36 TimToady n: sub f($x, $y where $y > $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1 2
09:36 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Two terms in a row at /tmp/0tRui2r81s line 1:�------> [32mwhere $y > $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1 [33m�[31m2[0m��Parse failed��»
09:36 TimToady n: sub f($x, $y where $y > $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1, 2  # duh
09:36 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Constraint type check failed for parameter '$y' in 'f'␤  at /tmp/qq8zGjdMAd line 0 (f @ 1) ␤  at /tmp/qq8zGjdMAd line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4133 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.s…
09:36 hoelzro moritz: interesting point
09:36 TimToady n: sub f($x, $y where $y > $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1, 3
09:36 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«1 3␤»
09:36 TimToady r: sub f($x, $y where $y > $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1, 3
09:37 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«1 3␤»
09:37 TimToady don't really need another closure there
09:38 TimToady removing an unnecessary layer of closure might be a useful optimization
09:38 moritz I just don't use the where-clauses often enough to be sure about the precedence levels and what works
09:39 TimToady you can't use anything comma or looser, since comma means next parameter
09:39 TimToady other than that, it's just a thunk
09:40 TimToady same deal with default value
09:41 TimToady r: sub f($x, $y = 1 + $x * 2) { say "$x $y" }; f 1
09:41 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«1 3␤»
09:46 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Random_n​umber_generator_%28device%29#Perl_6
09:47 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Trabb_P​ardo%E2%80%93Knuth_algorithm#Perl_6
09:48 hoelzro r: sub foo(Str $value) {} say &foo.signature.params[0] ~~ 'hello'
09:48 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/kdcSH9OW6g:1␤»
09:48 hoelzro confused? how is that confusing?
09:48 hoelzro =(
09:48 tadzik semicolon
09:48 tadzik r: sub foo(Str $value) {}; say &foo.signature.params[0] ~~ 'hello'
09:48 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«False␤»
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09:49 tadzik r: sub foo(Str $value) {}; say 'hello' ~~ &foo.signature.params[0]
09:49 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«False␤»
09:49 hoelzro tadzik: ah, thanks
09:49 hoelzro anyway...
09:49 arnsholt "Confused" is perhaps a LTA error message there
09:49 tadzik that's correct
09:49 hoelzro does that look right?
09:49 tadzik r: sub foo(Str $value) {}; say &foo.signature.params[0].WHAT
09:49 p6eval rakudo c5f8b8: OUTPUT«Parameter()␤»
09:49 tadzik that's not a string :)
09:49 arnsholt You want params[0].type
09:49 hoelzro ah ha
09:51 TimToady n: sub foo(Str $value) {} say &foo.signature.params[0] ~~ 'hello'
09:51 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/zGvEELowI_ line 1:â�¤------> [32msub foo(Str $value) {}[33mâ��[31m say &foo.signature.params[0] ~~ 'hello'[0mâ�¤Other potential difficulties:â�¤  $valu…
09:51 TimToady niecza is more informative on that subject
09:51 moritz aye, rakudo needs to adopt STD's whole error tracking thing
09:51 arnsholt Indeed. Due to its grammar being more STD-like, I assume
09:51 TimToady nodnod
09:52 TimToady nodnodnod even
09:54 dalek doc: 7c9ae89 | moritz++ | lib/Parameter.pod:
09:54 dalek doc: [Parameter] explain how to obtain an Parameter object; link to Signature
09:54 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7c9ae895f2
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09:55 pmichaud fixing up Rakudo's grammar for better error handling is on my hit list
09:59 moritz your hit list is just long :-)
09:59 moritz as is mine
09:59 jnthn as is mine
10:00 moritz and, like, everybody elses
10:00 jnthn Debugger is somewhat knocked off mine now though :)
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10:09 moritz http://www.haskell.org/haskellwik​i/Image:Monad-tutorials-chart.png
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10:23 dalek rakudo/nom: 1054d13 | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
10:23 dalek rakudo/nom: awesomify error message for X::Role::Initialization
10:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1054d13cc0
10:32 dalek doc: 19996f3 | moritz++ | lib/X/Role/Initialization.pod:
10:32 dalek doc: document X::Role::Iinitialization
10:32 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/19996f3f22
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10:39 snarkyboojum hi guys - is there a suitable switch to take advantage of compiling Perl 6 on a machine with many cores? --jobs rings a faint bell...
10:40 snarkyboojum compiling Rakudo rather :)
10:40 TimToady make -j 4
10:40 TimToady or whatever
10:41 snarkyboojum TimToady: cheers :) will give it a whirl
10:41 TimToady I think there's some way to run spectests in parallel too
10:42 snarkyboojum I should search back through the irc logs eh :) this will get me started though
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10:48 colomon TEST_JOBS=4 works to make the spectest run in parallel, at least in niecza.
10:49 snarkyboojum noice - should try that.. I'm testing a 'make' of rakudo on a quite beastly beast - trying to optimise - finishes in about 3m15s
10:50 TimToady all systems are go for lunch &
10:52 snarkyboojum colomon: stupid question - but you're talking about an env var right?
10:52 colomon snarkyboojum: yes
10:53 snarkyboojum colomon: will give it a go - output of time make spectest forthcoming :)
10:53 colomon on OS X, the command line I use is just TEST_JOBS=4 make spectest
10:53 colomon that temporarily sets the env var and runs make spectest.
10:53 snarkyboojum nice… I've just manually exported it
10:53 snarkyboojum seems to be going fast!
10:54 snarkyboojum apart from IO-Socket-INET.t :S
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11:00 snarkyboojum colomon: finishes spectest in about 1m40s :)
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11:07 snarkyboojum colomon: tho it fails some tests
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11:24 colomon woof, that's fast!
11:24 snarkyboojum colomon: what are some compute intensive perl 6 benchmarky type things? there was a fractal generator from memory?
11:24 colomon snarkyboojum: yes,
11:25 colomon https://github.com/colomon/mandelbrot
11:25 snarkyboojum colomon: ta
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11:27 moritz note that rakudo's README documents the TEST_JOBS thingy
11:28 snarkyboojum colomon: what would be a good compute stress test with mandlebot.pl?
11:28 snarkyboojum moritz: thanks - I'm a lazy bum :)
11:29 colomon snarkyboojum: just say something like perl6 mandelbrot-color.pl 1001
11:29 snarkyboojum moritz: I can't find TEST_JOBS in the rakudo README though
11:29 moritz wooops
11:29 snarkyboojum oh document(s)
11:29 colomon er, perl6 mandelbrot-color.pl 1001 >fractal.ppm
11:29 colomon if that goes too fast, increase the number.  :)
11:32 snarkyboojum colomon: will this just use a single cpu?
11:32 colomon snarkyboojum: yes
11:32 snarkyboojum colomon: bugger :)
11:32 colomon the niecza gtk-mandelbrot version is in parallel
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11:32 colomon but rakudo doesn't have parallel processing yet, so far as I know
11:33 snarkyboojum colomon: ok.. might get mono installed and niecza going
11:33 colomon how many cores do you have?
11:33 snarkyboojum colomon: we need a gpu version :P
11:33 snarkyboojum colomon: 16 hyperthreaded cores
11:33 snarkyboojum colomon: with 60+GB RAM
11:33 colomon !!!!!!
11:34 * colomon wonders if he could justify buying one of those for work....
11:34 snarkyboojum colomon: but I don't see any performance increase between 16 and 32 test jobs.. so it seems spectest doesn't use HT
11:34 snarkyboojum colomon: costs me $2.50/hr ;)
11:35 moritz snarkyboojum: it just uses whatever the OS uses for processes
11:35 snarkyboojum colomon: or not (as this is "testing" for work :))
11:35 snarkyboojum moritz: makes sense
11:35 colomon .... $20 for a working day.  $100 a month....that's actually not that insane.  It's a server somewhere?
11:37 snarkyboojum colomon: http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/ - a 'Cluster Compute Eight Extra Large Instance' instance on AWS :D
11:37 snarkyboojum colomon: 2 x Intel Xeon E5-2670
11:38 colomon for what I'd need it for on work, I think they'd kill me on file storage costs.
11:38 colomon gtk-mandelbrot probably not suitable, then, as it's got an actual GUI
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11:39 snarkyboojum colomon: run it on a windows box then :)
11:39 snarkyboojum colomon: file storage costs?
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11:40 colomon I'd be testing my software on a lot of large files.  18 gigs worth.
11:41 colomon as I recall, amazon's file storage is a bit pricey.  and uploading them from scratch each time would kill the performance improvements of using the big box.
11:41 snarkyboojum colomon: ouch - could cost $1.80 for block storage
11:41 colomon that's per day or something, no?
11:41 snarkyboojum colomon: per month
11:41 colomon really?  hmm.....
11:42 moritz if you have a huge blob of seldom-changing data, you could use the new "glacier" thing
11:43 snarkyboojum moritz: indeed - 1c/GB/month :P
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11:54 moritz r: 1.Str::split('foo')
11:54 p6eval rakudo 1054d1: OUTPUT«Cannot dispatch to method split on Str because it is not inherited or done by Int␤  in method dispatch:<::> at src/gen/CORE.setting:830␤  in block  at /tmp/dBdzCoABND:1␤␤»
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11:56 dalek doc: 2dc3ff6 | moritz++ | lib/X/Method/InvalidQualifier.pod:
11:56 dalek doc: X::Method::InvalidQualifier
11:56 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2dc3ff629c
11:59 dalek doc: 92a6deb | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/Number/RadixOutOfRange.pod:
11:59 dalek doc: X::Syntax::Number::RadixOutOfRange
11:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/92a6deb936
12:05 dalek doc: ff5a9cc | moritz++ | lib/X/Export/NameClash.pod:
12:05 dalek doc: document X::Export::NameClash
12:05 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ff5a9cc6cc
12:07 dalek doc: 14f9f8e | moritz++ | lib/X/Sequence/Deduction.pod:
12:07 dalek doc: document X::Sequence::Deduction
12:07 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/14f9f8e464
12:09 moritz r: class A { }; class B does A { }
12:09 p6eval rakudo 1054d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤B cannot compose A because it is not composable␤at /tmp/tCDkDOoTOE:1␤»
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12:17 lumi_ moritz: Which 'it' is that?
12:17 moritz the last mentioned
12:18 moritz lumi_: if you can come up with a clearer (but non-repetitive) error message, I can easily change it
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12:22 lumi_ A is not composable, so B cannot compose it # perhaps?
12:22 lumi_ moritz: Or is "X because Y" mandatory?
12:22 moritz no, not mandatory
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12:23 b_jonas Should S02 have a provision that version control conflict markers like <<<<<<< are a token that causes a syntax error with an approperiate message?
12:25 b_jonas Or would people want to write those for <<...>> strings/indexes?
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12:25 moritz b_jonas: STD.pm6 recognizes it, and it's as much standard for Perl 6 as S02 is
12:25 b_jonas I see.
12:25 moritz b_jonas: it won't hurt to mention it, but the exact semantics are more accurately described in STD.pm6 anyway
12:27 b_jonas The exact semantics for what diagnosis is produced probably does not need to be in S02, but S02 at least needs to mention that it's invalid or else people could insist it's a valid <<...>> literal
12:27 moritz +1
12:28 moritz n: say <<< 1 >>>
12:28 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Bogus term at /tmp/eHwsYd0IMZ line 1 (EOF):�------> [32msay <<< 1 >>>[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m��Parse failed��»
12:28 moritz n: say << 1 >>
12:28 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:30 colomon std: say <<< 1 >>>
12:30 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Bogus term at /tmp/gucLpAH6sX line 1 (EOF):�------> [32msay <<< 1 >>>[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 42m�»
12:30 colomon std: say <<<<<<<<<<< 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>
12:30 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please use +> or ~> at /tmp/Vib1VSCbEP line 1:�------> [32msay <<<<<<<<<<< 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�Bogus term at /tmp/Vib1VSCbEP line 1 (EOF):�------> [32msay <<<<<<<<<<< 1…
12:31 moritz $ ./perl6 -e 'class A { }; class B does A { }'
12:31 moritz ===SORRY!===
12:31 moritz A is not composable, so B cannot compose it
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12:32 dalek rakudo/nom: 7b068ea | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
12:32 dalek rakudo/nom: improve error message for X::Composition::NotComposable, lumi_++
12:32 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7b068ea36a
12:33 moritz r: say Date.today
12:33 p6eval rakudo 1054d1: OUTPUT«2012-08-22␤»
12:33 diakopter "non composable cannot be composed"
12:36 dalek specs: 5e47a16 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
12:36 dalek specs: [S32::Exception] improve an error message, lumi++
12:36 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/5e47a16a17
12:40 b_jonas I think it's always *exactly seven* less than signs, in all version control software
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12:44 smash pmichaud++ # p6doc talk
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13:16 GlitchMr perl6: "a[\x2028]b".perl.print
13:16 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«"a[\x[2028]]b"»
13:16 p6eval ..rakudo 7b068e: OUTPUT«"a[
]b"»
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13:17 GlitchMr perl6: "\xA0".perl.print
13:17 p6eval rakudo 7b068e, niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«" "»
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13:41 GlitchMr perl6: Blob.new(1, 2, 3).perl.print
13:41 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared name:â�¤        'Blob' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1402 (die @ 5) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) â�¤  at /home/p…
13:41 p6eval ..rakudo 7b068e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&Blob' called (line 1)␤»
13:42 GlitchMr I guess that Blob isn't supported yet
13:43 moritz have fun guessing
13:44 tadzik hm. There's no Perl.pm, but could we maybe name tomorrows' release "Perl" after the town of PRS?
13:46 moritz I wouldn't object
13:46 moritz though you could still call it Frankfurt :-)
13:46 tadzik or Frankfurt.pm, it wasn't taken yet :)
13:49 tadzik huh, seems that I released Riga.pm too :)
13:52 hoelzro you know what would be cool? a Perl 6 grammar -> Vim syntax file converter
13:52 * hoelzro ponders
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13:54 tadzik oh cool. Well volunteered :)
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13:54 * hoelzro puts it on the list
13:58 japhb tadzik, I broke bootstrap on windows?  How the heck did I do that?
13:58 tadzik japhb: I donno
13:58 tadzik I'll forward an email to ya
13:58 japhb I didn't think any transform I did would have affected that.  :-/
13:59 japhb My apologies, I was trying to be very careful about that.  :-(
13:59 tadzik yes, that's why I prefer not to touch bootstrap.pl. Never :)
13:59 tadzik sur, that's ok
13:59 tadzik do you have a windows machine to test that on?
13:59 japhb Nope.
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14:00 tadzik hm, ok
14:00 tadzik I'll ask Gabor if he can bisect it
14:00 japhb Is jnthn around?  He's the only one I know that regularly uses Windows to develop.
14:00 japhb Ah, that's two, good.
14:01 japhb (I also did smaller commits than I usually do, just in case I accidentally caused a problem of *any* kind, so it would be easier to bisect and fix the bad commit.)
14:01 tadzik good
14:02 japhb Well, on the flip side, did you get a chance to play with the changes on a working system?
14:02 * japhb has not backlogged yet this morning, just saw your highlight ...
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14:03 tadzik I rebootstraped a few times, I should have all the changes on
14:04 arnsholt Is FROGGS on GitHub someone here?
14:05 GlitchMr perl6: @("\x80\x40\xFF\x9F".encod​e('ISO-8859-1')).Str.print
14:05 p6eval rakudo 7b068e: OUTPUT«128 64 255 159»
14:05 p6eval ..niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«Buf()<instance>»
14:06 tadzik japhb: I'm still not sure why do we want URLs in 'list'
14:06 tadzik so locally installed modules look different, yeah, but the whole URL just for that?
14:06 GlitchMr But why I complicate stuff when I have .ords
14:06 japhb A couple reasons (for me): local installs, installing one of a few different forks of a project, etc.
14:07 tadzik hm
14:07 japhb tadzik, it's certainly not critical to me any more, since I updated 'info' to give both the project list and installed info as well.
14:07 tadzik ok cool
14:08 japhb Feel free to nuke it out of 'panda list --verbose'
14:09 tadzik talk &
14:09 japhb enjoy!
14:09 * japhb is jealous of all the conference attendees.  :-)
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14:28 kresike bye all
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14:37 moritz japhb: me too
14:38 moritz japhb: did you see my comment on roles and inheritance in the type graphs?
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14:39 TimToady wrt the table of p6 operators, there are 3 deletions (prefix:<=>, @@, p5=>), 5 additions (%%, Zop, Sop, ...^, set/bag operators), and 3 changed spellings (true => so, slice => lol, also => S&)
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14:46 japhb moritz, I have not seen that comment yet.  Link?
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14:53 [Coke] LWP::Simple doesn't pass its tests, trying to install with recent panda, rakudo.
14:53 tadzik yes
14:53 tadzik it's brokens
14:53 tadzik just when I wanted to finish MuEvent::HTTP :)
14:54 moritz japhb: some roles like X::Comp inherit from a class (Exception)
14:54 moritz japhb: now both that role *and* a role that does it (X::Syntax) get arrows the parent class (Exception)
14:55 moritz and a class that does the role gets another arrow
14:55 moritz for example http://doc.perl6.org/image​s/type-graph-X::Syntax.svg X::Syntax confused
14:55 japhb Ah yes, known bug that I kept forgetting to address.
14:55 moritz ok
14:56 moritz I'll open a ticket if you don't fix it soon :-)
14:56 japhb It's a result of the "roles apply their isa list to the class that composes them"
14:56 japhb moritz, probably not a bad idea to open the ticket.  I'm a bit scattered this week, and I don't want to forget it again.
14:56 moritz ok, will do
14:58 japhb I guess I need to keep track of which isa relationships were explicit, and which came in from roles.
14:58 japhb Makes me wonder how the Metamodel does this correctly.  ;-)
14:58 japhb Thanks for entering the ticket.
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15:00 [Coke] arglebargle. I tried again to get panda working inside an installed rakudo, but it's a PITA. I must be doing it wrong.
15:01 [Coke] I moved panda into the installed rakudo, and updated its shebang.
15:01 japhb [Coke], I have to run now but will be back in a bit.  If you post a script of your problem, I can try taking a look at it when I'm back.
15:01 moritz japhb: https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/4 the Metamodel simply doesn't have roles that inherit from classes
15:01 [Coke] it claims to install things, but not to the installed rakudo.
15:01 japhb moritz, yes it does.
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15:02 japhb Er, and you pointed out the case I was thinking of in the issue.  ;-)
15:02 [Coke] what do I need to do set my env to in order to use the installed modules?
15:03 japhb PERL6LIB
15:03 japhb (Assuming they didn't just install into ~/.perl6/
15:03 japhb Anyway, really AFK
15:03 japhb &
15:03 [Coke] they DID install into ~/.perl6
15:04 [Coke] PERL6LIB=/home/coke/.perl6/lib perl6  ... use JSON::RPC - not found.
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15:05 [Coke] ARG. JSON::RPC is not a class, it's a ... package?
15:05 [Coke] so, yes, it all works fine, and my test is flawed. bother.
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15:11 [Coke] bbkr: how can I find out more details if a client request results in a transport error?
15:11 [Coke] bbkr: (on JSON::RPC::Client)
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15:19 [Coke] phenny: tell cosimo that I'm blocking on Issue #15 for LWP::Simple.
15:19 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when cosimo is around.
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15:32 [Coke] phenny: ask bbkr how can I find out more details if a client request results in a transport error using JSON::RPC::Client
15:32 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when bbkr is around.
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15:37 bbkr [Coke]: there is no proper HTTP transport layer, the only message you get is http reposnse line (in exception object under .data attribute)
15:37 phenny bbkr: 15:32Z <[Coke]> ask bbkr how can I find out more details if a client request results in a transport error using JSON::RPC::Client
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15:40 [Coke] star: use JSON::RPC::Client
15:40 p6eval star 2012.07:  ( no output )
15:40 bbkr star: use JSON::RPC::Client; my $c = JSON::RPC::Client.new(url => "http://app.getresponse.com/error404.html"); $c.foo(); # this page returns 303 redirect
15:40 p6eval star 2012.07: OUTPUT«Transport error (-32300): "HTTP response is - 301 Moved"␤»
15:41 bbkr 301*
15:41 [Coke] so is there any way to get more info ther?
15:41 bbkr what info do you need?
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15:42 [Coke] moved where?
15:42 GlitchMr Disconnections are getting silly
15:42 GlitchMr Just wondering, what was my quit message
15:44 bbkr [Coke]: you can modify this line https://github.com/bbkr/jsonrpc/blo​b/master/lib/JSON/RPC/Client.pm#L87 to return whole response in exception.data attribute
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15:46 bbkr [Coke]: we still don't have HTTP::Request/Response classes to handle redirects or chunked transfers. the very basic communication added in JSON::RPC::Client does not handle many cases :(
15:47 bbkr [Coke]: which URL you try to connect to? local perl-perl communication or something external?
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15:50 thou o/
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15:57 thou i have a question about new and BUILD. reading S12, it's not clear to me if the following should work or not:
15:57 thou nr: class Foo { has $.foo; }; my $f = Foo.new(:oops<should this fail or warn?>); $f.perl.say;
15:57 p6eval rakudo 7b068e: OUTPUT«Foo.new(foo => Any)␤»
15:57 p6eval ..niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«Foo.new(...)␤»
15:58 thou "All classes inherit a default new constructor from Mu. It expects all arguments to be named parameters initializing attributes of the same name."
15:58 moritz thou: excess named arguments are generally ignored in method calls
15:59 moritz so, no warning or failure expected here
15:59 thou ok. that must be in S06
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16:00 thou for some reason i thought that should error unless there's a slurpy *%foo param
16:00 moritz methods have an implicit *% at the end
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16:10 thou ah
16:10 thou "Interface Consistency", S12. thanks, moritz!
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16:32 thou rn: class Foo { has $.foo; method foo { return $.foo; } }; say "alive";
16:32 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Two definitions of method foo (see line 1) at /tmp/wkfZwQvLCo line 1:â�¤------> [32mclass Foo { has $.foo; method foo [33mâ��[31m{ return $.foo; } }; say "alive";[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niec…
16:32 p6eval ..rakudo 7b068e: OUTPUT«alive␤»
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16:40 sorear good * #perl6
16:40 thou hi, sorear
16:41 pmichaud good evening, #perl6
16:43 sorear DrEeevil: sorry I haven't been available much.  I'd like elaboration on the "dirty bootstrap" and "unsafe makefiles"
16:43 sorear I spent a good chunk of June trying to make the bootstrap not suck so much.  Presumably you have something less ambitious in mind
16:46 GlitchMr I'm not sure, but "===" works like "is" (Python) for mutable types?
16:50 sorear can't speak for Python but it is object equivalence
16:50 sorear n: say [] === [] # two distinct arrays
16:50 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«False␤»
16:51 sorear === tries to model distinguishability.  internally 2 === 2 might be comparing different objects, but they aren't distinguishable because you can't modify one
16:51 sorear n: my $x = 1+1; my $y=$x*1; say $x === $y
16:51 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«True␤»
16:52 sorear n: my $x = 1+1; my $y=$x*1; $x does False; say ?$x, ?$y, $x === $y # might be a problem?
16:52 p6eval niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use 'does' operator with an immutable object␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1431 (die @ 5) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1370 (infix:<does> @ 8) ␤  at /tmp/GTyw4gbIJP line 1 (mainline @ 5) ␤  at…
16:52 sorear ah, you hit the guardrail there
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17:08 thou i'd like a code review:  https://github.com/softmoth/uri/co​mpare/master...relative-references
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17:19 PerlJam thou: What's with all of the Mu assignments?
17:20 thou PerlJam: my $u = URI.new('a'); $u.parse('completely/new/URI');  # .parse() wipes out previous URI completely.
17:21 PerlJam ah
17:21 thou that's how it was written already, i didn't change that code
17:21 thou i'm not a big fan of that interface, i guess i'd rather create a new URI.
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17:33 [Coke] phenny: tell bbkr it is something external.
17:34 [Coke] phenny: help?
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17:50 [Coke] I think the right answer here is to get LWP::Simple working, as I don't think this api that returns json is really using jsonrpc.
17:53 thou [Coke]: is that comment related to URI, or did i miss something due to the net split?
17:54 ptl joined #perl6
17:55 [Coke] thou: you missed a conversion from over an hour ago about JSON::RPC::Client
17:55 japhb_ joined #perl6
17:55 thou ah, ok
17:57 sivoais joined #perl6
17:58 [Coke] aloha: seen ronaldxs?
17:59 aloha [Coke]: ronaldxs was last seen in  15574 days 17 hours ago .
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18:01 [Coke] tadzik: ronaldxs has a fork of lwp simple that passes all tests.
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18:09 [Coke] masak: if I "use LWP::Simple;\nuseJSON::Tiny;\n\nmy $ua = LWP::Simple.new\nmy $c..." I get a confused on line one, even though the error is a missing semicolon on line 4.
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18:18 * [Coke] slowly gets his perl6fu together.
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18:24 [Coke] Timbus: have you looked into integrating MuEvent into Net::IRC::Bot?
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18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: 3a5e6c8 | coke++ | p (2 files):
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: today
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/3a5e6c8b7e
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: abc4e97 | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: today
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/abc4e97402
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18:51 [Coke] looks like rakudo is down a few tests today, some oddness in S32-exceptions/misc.rakudo
18:53 [Coke] (which IS odd, because it says it passed more tests than before.)
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19:41 moritz r: class A { }; class B does A { }
19:41 p6eval rakudo 7b068e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A is not composable, so B cannot compose it␤at /tmp/_S6oXr4LVr:1␤»
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19:42 dalek doc: 566a7a1 | moritz++ | lib/X/Composition/NotComposable.pod:
19:42 dalek doc: X::Composition::NotComposable
19:42 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/566a7a1ff4
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20:32 diakopter the yapc crew is conspicuously quiet
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20:33 [Coke] mmm.
20:33 [Coke] I was just thinking that.
20:33 [Coke] probably the crappy network.
20:33 diakopter or something's afoot
20:33 [Coke] thank goodness they all have git so they don't need the net. ;)
20:33 moritz or probably some informal post-conference meetup
20:33 moritz or they are just plain tired
20:34 japhb_ [Coke], I've got a few minutes now, do you still need help with panda problems?  (I still haven't backlogged at all today.)
20:34 moritz many of the 6ers were in Perl before the YAPC, so they already had two intense days of conference behind them
20:37 [Coke] japhb_: no, now I need MuEvent::run and Net::IRC::Bot::run to interact. ;)
20:37 japhb_ heh
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20:43 tadzik I'm here
20:43 tadzik but I may suddenly get asleep at a random moment :)
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20:45 diakopter .u phenny
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20:46 japhb_ tadzik, I like that phrasing -- it's very evocative.  ;-)
20:48 tadzik phenny: en pl "evocative"?
20:48 tadzik oh :)
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20:50 phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for 'phenny'.
20:50 diakopter O_O
20:50 japhb_ phenny is ... very lagged
20:50 tadzik :)
20:50 diakopter yeah but; it wasn't on the channel when I sent that
20:50 phenny tadzik: "sugestywny" (en to pl, translate.google.com)
20:50 tadzik phenny: why, thanks you
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20:54 * felher is now back at "home" and wants to thank all people he met on the yapc for a wonderful time :)
20:55 felher s/on the/at the
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22:05 sirrobert How do I sign a method signature with a role?
22:05 sirrobert sub myfunc (MyRole $foo) { ... }
22:05 diakopter with a flourish?
22:06 sirrobert nope; with a faunish =)
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22:09 sirrobert ah, no special syntax; my original attempt was just awkwardly tried
22:09 japhb_ sirrobert, heh, I was wondering what you were asking, because I was thinking "Looks right to me ..."  :-)
22:10 sirrobert based on some debugging output I'd written +MyRole =)
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22:10 sirrobert (there was some error that said something like, "Class+Role")
22:12 japhb_ sirrobert, you can get Class+Role if you apply the role to a particular object (with e.g. runtime but or does), rather than an entire type (in e.g. your class declaration)
22:12 sirrobert ahh, got it
22:12 sirrobert I was using "but", that must be why I got that
22:14 * mhasch is home from yapc::eu
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