Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-08-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

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01:49 Carolyn hhhhhhhhh
01:49 Carolyn hola
01:49 Carolyn quien
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03:00 DrEeevil sorear_: re: makefiles, try bootstrap with MAKEOPTS="-j4", it reliably fails
03:00 DrEeevil sorear_: and the bootstrap is "dirty" because it writes to the live filesystem (which some build environments penalize with termination), I workarounded it by copying the installed niecza files into the boot/ directory
03:01 DrEeevil (and patching out that silly autofetcher)
03:01 DrEeevil bonus: I was able to test bootstrapping different versions with different versions, it is quite resilient and just works
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03:05 sevvie Hey everyone. I downloaded Rakudo Star 2012.07, wanting to give rakudo another try. On a Macbook. Everything looked fine until what looks like the first time it calls gcc, at which point it throws two errors: unrecognized command line option '-Wno-long-double', and '-Wenum-compare'.
03:06 sevvie (calls gcc as compared to clang)
03:06 benabik sevvie: Do you have the latest version of Xcode and the command line tools?
03:06 sevvie I do.
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03:07 benabik Hm.
03:07 DrEeevil sevvie: gcc -v claims what version?
03:07 sevvie gcc version 4.2.1 (Based on Apple Inc. build 5658) (LLVM build 2336.11.00)
03:07 * benabik has the same
03:07 * benabik wonders what Parrot version * uses...
03:08 DrEeevil haha
03:08 benabik Uses 4.6.0
03:08 DrEeevil sevvie: that is pretty much ancient stuff no one uses anymore ... and I guess updating is impossible
03:09 benabik DrEeevil: That is the most current Apple toolchain.  :-P
03:09 DrEeevil benabik: I see no contradiction there
03:09 benabik hugme: hug DrEeevil
03:09 * hugme hugs DrEeevil
03:10 DrEeevil o_O
03:10 benabik Hm.  The hints haven't changed since 4.6.0
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03:13 * benabik downloads and tries to build.
03:14 benabik Huh.  It uses clang for me.
03:14 sevvie It uses clang up to a point, for me.
03:14 benabik And generates PILES of warnings.  O.o
03:14 sevvie I gotta run for a bit, but I read backlog.
03:14 benabik sevvie: I'll keep trying and see if I see the same thing.  Might be that Parrot is defaulting to clang but something else is trying to use gcc.
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03:18 * benabik hopes star won't overwrite my existing toolchain...
03:20 benabik Oh good, it creates an install directory...
03:21 * benabik hasn't tried star before.
03:24 benabik Okay, `perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot` has finished without error...
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04:17 sevvie Weird. Wonder why mine doesn't like compiling.
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05:20 masak morning, #perl6
05:20 masak I've decided not to rush macros-d2 into today's release.
05:20 masak if I'd had today completely free for Perl 6 activities, I'd get it merged easily.
05:21 masak but I have to teach today. so, next release.
05:21 masak &
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05:34 moritz good morning
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07:08 tadzik good moritz morning
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07:11 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
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07:31 arnsholt FROGGS: I'm off to work now, but if you wanna discuss the Zavolaj/CStruct stuff I'll be back online in about half an hour
07:31 hoelzro morgen
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07:41 Timbus [Coke], yes (slightly delayed response)
07:42 FROGGS hi arnsholt: dont much to discuss right now I guess, but I let you know
07:42 Timbus [Coke], I've been wondering how to do it. Since my library is socket based (as in, class sockets not IO sockets) it doesn't go well with the normal callback-based event stuff. I think I need to wrap my run() method into a callback and wait for the user to call MuEvent::run
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07:51 Timbus can you pass a method as a reference in perl 6 or do you need to wrap it in a closure like perl 5's  sub {$obj.method()}
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07:56 pmichaud Timbus: one can do   *.method()   or { $obj.method }
07:56 pmichaud the first is equivalent to     -> $obj { $obj.method }
07:56 Timbus ah, yes but i was wondering if you could simply pass the method around, like C#'s delegates i guess
07:57 Timbus without needing to keep the object around (in this case in a closure)
07:58 Timbus my $meth = &$obj.method; $meth(); #equivalent to $obj.method();?
07:59 hoelzro Timbus: iirc, method objects are "unbound"
07:59 Timbus a closure works fine, I'm just wondering if it's the perl 6 'way'
08:02 dalek nqp: dd9cb19 | pmichaud++ | / (2 files):
08:02 dalek nqp: Update NQP release_guide, create "make release" target in Makefile.
08:02 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/dd9cb19336
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08:14 arnsholt FROGGS: I'd be interested in a quick outline of what features you're missing
08:15 arnsholt I do try to do some stuff with Zavolaj, but I end up spending most of my time hacking on Zavolaj itself, so feedback on what people actually -need- is good =)
08:16 moritz ncurses gives you access to some variables (for example for getting the window size) -- is that supported in zavolaj somehow?
08:16 arnsholt Nope =/
08:16 arnsholt It's one of the things I've been pondering
08:17 arnsholt Getting it to work probably wouldn't be too hard, but I'm not entirely sure what the best way to expose it to the user is
08:17 arnsholt Should probably have a chat with jnthn about it
08:17 FROGGS I need to get the right values out of a struct like { Uint8 x; Uint8 y; }, right now I get bot x and y inside the same Int
08:17 FROGGS I cant tell it that the ints are just one byte
08:18 FROGGS So having a struct that is like { Uint8; Uint16; Sint16; char; ... } is even worse to split apart if it gets to you in a single int
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08:19 FROGGS when reading your type_map { int8 => char }, one could think that he actually gets a 1-byte-thingy
08:20 arnsholt Yeah, sized members in structs (and arrays of sized stuff) is in the pipeline
08:21 FROGGS ya, looks like the problem is in CStruct.h around line 204
08:21 FROGGS sorry, CStruct.c
08:21 arnsholt The Uint/Sint distinction is likely to be annoying as well, but I haven't really discussed that with jnthn yet
08:21 FROGGS I dont care at the end if my perl var is actually an int8 or Int or whatever, the numeric value must be right
08:22 arnsholt Actually, the problem is a bit trickier
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08:23 arnsholt get_attribute_ref returns a pointer to the value we're reading, and it's the caller's responsibility to interpret that pointer correctly
08:23 FROGGS one problem that comes to my mind is that you dont really know how much bytes the compiler spent for types when building the lib
08:23 arnsholt Which means that I'll have to update the calling convention of get_attribute_ref, update all implementors of the interface and all callers of it
08:24 FROGGS ya, basically the caller has to know what he will get
08:24 arnsholt I'm sort of in the middle of that
08:24 FROGGS ohh, okay
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08:25 arnsholt Unfortunately I've an article deadline coming up, so it'll probably be a few weeks at least before I get it done
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08:27 FROGGS that not a problem, I dont wanna release the SDL module for perl6 tomorrow ;o)
08:27 arnsholt Well, that's a relief =)
08:27 FROGGS its more some kind of proof of concept right now
08:28 FROGGS to get into perl6 a bit, since I installed it like two days ago
08:28 arnsholt But for now, you'll have to deal with this stuff manually similarly to the version struct
08:28 FROGGS I've got a question about that
08:28 FROGGS why is actually something in $!version?
08:29 arnsholt You mean how we get the info from the C struct via $!version?
08:30 FROGGS ya, is it just because I told it that there is an int value at the first place?
08:30 arnsholt Yeah, pretty much
08:30 FROGGS so its all about the order?
08:30 arnsholt The order of declaration of the has clauses matters, just like in C, really
08:30 FROGGS k
08:31 arnsholt From that we can calculate the allocation strategy for the corresponding C struct and peek into it correctly
08:31 FROGGS hmmm
08:31 arnsholt Pointer members are a bit more complicated, since those will be associated with a Perl 6 object as well as a pointer in C
08:32 FROGGS what if the struct has a member like char[42]? how could I tell it that there's a something of size 42?
08:32 arnsholt For those we have a parallel storage for the Perl object pointers and some logic to make sure the Perl object has the same pointer as the C struct
08:32 arnsholt That's another thing we don't support yet either =/
08:32 arnsholt Only struct { int *array; }
08:33 arnsholt (And it's not entirely obvious how to expose it as Perl)
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08:34 moritz int @array[42]
08:34 moritz once we implement that :-)
08:34 arnsholt Except that syntax is kind of taken already
08:35 FROGGS ya
08:35 arnsholt Since has CArray[int] $!arr means int *arr
08:37 FROGGS I could imagine passing a custom class like char42 as a type, with a common getter that gives you the size in bytes
08:38 arnsholt But for the most part you can hack around the lack of flattened arrays
08:38 arnsholt Just embed 42 ints in a row =)
08:39 FROGGS ohh what the
08:39 FROGGS ya, at least it would work ;o)
08:39 moritz :-)
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08:41 jnthn_ morning o/
08:41 phenny jnthn_: 29 May 11:40Z <daxim> tell jnthn_  rakudo-switched-over-to-qregex =~ s|Ementaler|Emmentaler|
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08:41 dnocaster Anyone know where I could find a link to a transcript (or video) of the State of the Onion 12 (2008) & 13 (2009) talks, if such exist?
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08:49 moritz if google doesn't find them, I guess they don't exist
08:50 dnocaster ty moritz.. did spend an hour looking.. placeholders only
08:51 FROGGS maybe ask the organizers? thats pretty much the last chance you got
08:52 dnocaster what happens if I give a little love shout out to everyone out there (not as a means to an end), but for love's sake.. any takers? Does it irritate anyone? If so, sorry. Peace.
08:53 moritz hugme: hug dnocaster
08:53 * hugme hugs dnocaster
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08:53 kresike hello all you happy perl6 people
08:53 FROGGS hi
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08:55 dnocaster :) Okay.. world feels okay.. bfn and ty
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08:58 FROGGS bfn?
09:01 arnsholt Bye for now, I guess
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09:02 FROGGS ya, google told that too after my mobile broadband went to work again.... thanks anyway
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09:04 FROGGS its weird somehow sitting in the train and everybody around is talking in german (comming right back from yapc)
09:05 sorear DrEeevil: I see no reason to support building debian packages of niecza, since they will be useless for non-root users due to how stupid the module compilation cache is
09:06 sorear DrEeevil: niecza wants to be installed in a directory named "run" with a user-writable directory "../obj"
09:07 sorear DrEeevil: someday (possibly next week after I get Bailador running unmodified) I'll make it use $HOME/.niecza/module-cache or something like that
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09:17 dalek rakudo/nom: c7f6492 | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
09:17 dalek rakudo/nom: improve X::Numeric::Real error messge
09:17 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c7f6492914
09:17 dalek doc: ea92fc5 | moritz++ | lib/X/Numeric/Real.pod:
09:17 dalek doc: X::Numeric::Real
09:17 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ea92fc5af0
09:22 dalek doc: e5e4199 | moritz++ | lib/X/Phaser/PrePost.pod:
09:22 dalek doc: X::Phaser::PrePost
09:22 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e5e4199365
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09:24 dalek specs: 2774606 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
09:24 dalek specs: [S32::Exception] better error message for X::Numeric::Real
09:24 dalek specs:
09:24 dalek specs: also fix a typo
09:24 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/277460624d
09:28 dalek doc: 6347804 | moritz++ | lib/X/Package/Stubbed.pod:
09:28 dalek doc: X::Package::Stubbed
09:28 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/63478040fa
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10:06 dalek niecza: 6b0956d | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
10:06 dalek niecza: First horrible implementation of use lib
10:06 dalek niecza:
10:06 dalek niecza: It doesn't scope right and it also doesn't work with the precompiler so it
10:06 dalek niecza: cannot be used in modules.  Also it propagates into modules, which may or may
10:06 dalek niecza: not be a feature.
10:06 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/6b0956d6a6
10:11 * moritz has started to read http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236v1.pdf and likes it so far
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10:19 dalek nqp: b1a3a46 | jonathan++ | / (4 files):
10:19 dalek nqp: Copy P6Regex to get a P5Regex. Start making a few of the basic changes needed, looking to STD_P5 for inspiration.
10:19 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b1a3a4611b
10:19 dalek nqp: c5d768b | jonathan++ | t/p5regex/ (2 files):
10:19 dalek nqp: Add test harness for p5regex support and copy over rx_basic, which is simple enough to be valid p5 and p6. Passes.
10:19 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c5d768b85c
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10:22 jnthn r: 'ab' ~~ /a :: b/
10:22 p6eval rakudo c7f649: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤:: not yet implemented at line 2, near " b/"␤»
10:27 moritz jnthn: I hope you are aware that there are many :P5 regex tests in roast?
10:27 moritz (and in perl 5, of course :-)
10:28 jnthn moritz: yes, but going around that build cycle will be tedious, so I'm going to build a small suite based on some of the ones in spectest in nqp.
10:29 moritz sure
10:30 moritz just want to make sure you don't conjure them out of thin air, which would take way more time
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10:58 dalek niecza: 92255f0 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
10:58 dalek niecza: Add callframe(N) call form
10:58 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/92255f0f64
10:58 dalek niecza: 79d1139 | sorear++ | src/NieczaPathSearch.pm6:
10:58 dalek niecza: Actually print the search path when lookup fails
10:58 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/79d113931c
10:59 sorear rn: rx/<- [!*'()\-._~A..Za..z0..9]>+/
10:59 p6eval rakudo c7f649:  ( no output )
10:59 p6eval ..niecza v19-31-g94c69fe: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/NEr7LuE7ol line 1:â�¤------> [32mrx/<[33mâ��[31m- [!*'()\-._~A..Za..z0..9]>+/[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ast in type Anyâ�¤ …
10:59 sorear std: rx/<- [!*'()\-._~A..Za..z0..9]>+/
10:59 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
11:02 sorear rn: <- []>
11:02 p6eval rakudo c7f649, niecza v19-34-g79d1139:  ( no output )
11:03 sorear rn: rx/<- []>/
11:03 p6eval niecza v19-34-g79d1139: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/YB7zpUDVd3 line 1:â�¤------> [32mrx/<[33mâ��[31m- []>/[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method ast in type Anyâ�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza…
11:03 p6eval ..rakudo c7f649: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while compiling block : Error while compiling op call: Error while compiling block : Error while compiling block : StopIteration␤»
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11:05 sorear rn: "(y)" ~~ / '(' ~ ')' 'x' /
11:05 p6eval rakudo c7f649, niecza v19-34-g79d1139:  ( no output )
11:10 dalek nqp: 2d8b6e8 | jonathan++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
11:10 dalek nqp: Start getting various of the p5metachar bits in place, and eliminate a few bits that will be unrequired.
11:10 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2d8b6e8ecb
11:10 dalek nqp: d6e3ed6 | jonathan++ | t/p5regex/01-p5regex.t:
11:10 dalek nqp: Look in the correct places for tests.
11:10 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d6e3ed6d8a
11:10 dalek nqp: 47a7bb4 | jonathan++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
11:10 dalek nqp: Get p5quantifier largely in place and working.
11:10 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/47a7bb4d22
11:10 dalek nqp: e2b7dbe | jonathan++ | t/p5regex/ (2 files):
11:10 dalek nqp: Add some quantifier tests.
11:10 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e2b7dbe8c2
11:16 jnthn a {*} /
11:16 jnthn rx: / a {*} /
11:16 jnthn r: / a {*} /
11:16 p6eval rakudo c7f649:  ( no output )
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11:22 dalek niecza: 1666bb5 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
11:22 dalek niecza: Fix broken parsing of signs in character classes
11:22 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/1666bb507a
11:23 dalek nqp: 71ec9af | jonathan++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
11:23 dalek nqp: Remove a few pieces we won't need in P5regex.
11:23 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/71ec9af3fb
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12:06 * JimmyZ wonders what's the goal of P5Regex,
12:06 phenny JimmyZ: 19 Aug 15:16Z <sorear> tell JimmyZ Seems problematic insofar as mono 2.x lacks an interpreter and is extremely architecture-dependent in AOT mode (might even be ARM only)
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12:07 moritz JimmyZ: m:P5/.../
12:08 JimmyZ I thought for the new rakudo roadmap about perl 5
12:09 moritz JimmyZ: don't you see the relation?
12:09 moritz it allows people to write some kind of p5 code (here, regexes) in perl 6
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: befe7ca | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: make message of X::Inheritance::Unsupported less confusing
12:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/befe7ca360
12:10 JimmyZ I saw m:P5/.../
12:13 colomon nr: say 'ccdd' ~~ /<-[ab]+[cd]>+/
12:13 p6eval rakudo c7f649: OUTPUT«「ccdd」␤␤»
12:13 p6eval ..niecza v19-35-g1666bb5: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
12:14 colomon sorear: your latest patch broke that one, I think.
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13:12 sorear colomon: working as designed (!?).  STD.pm6 parses unary - as looser than everything else
13:12 colomon sorear: so the test and rakudo are both wrong?
13:12 sorear phenny: tell TimToady see colomon 06:12 and 05:13 PDT, I think we are looking at a stdbug
13:12 phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
13:13 sorear colomon: possibly.  if it's breaking real-world code I'll do $something_else
13:13 sorear until TimToady_ gets back to us
13:13 moritz you mean it's actually parsed as <- ( [ab]+[cd] )>  (with invented syntax)?
13:14 sorear yes
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13:19 sorear n: say 'ccdd' ~~ /<(-[ab])+[cd]>+/
13:19 p6eval niecza v19-35-g1666bb5: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unrecognized regex metacharacter - (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/T1ztWYc8dW line 1:â�¤------> [32msay 'ccdd' ~~ /<(-[33mâ��[31m[ab])+[cd]>+/[0mâ�¤â�¤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find final '/' at /tmp/T1ztWYc8dW…
13:19 sorear n: say 'ccdd' ~~ /< (-[ab])+[cd]>+/
13:19 p6eval niecza v19-35-g1666bb5: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
13:21 dalek niecza: c5422a5 | sorear++ | src/ (2 files):
13:21 dalek niecza: Revert "Fix broken parsing of signs in character classes"
13:21 dalek niecza:
13:21 dalek niecza: May be a STDbug, breaks colomon's code.
13:21 dalek niecza: This reverts commit 1666bb507ada5d922a5cc8aa3d964d0e4a39a825.
13:21 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c5422a51d7
13:21 dalek niecza: 0567c61 | sorear++ | src/STD.pm6:
13:21 dalek niecza: quickfix for space after sign
13:21 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/0567c617ab
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13:22 colomon sorear: oh, sorry, that wasn't a real-world bug of mine, that's from roast.  I still run spectest every time I see you've pushed a patch.  :)
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13:22 sorear colomon++
13:23 sorear roast is sufficiently real world for me
13:23 * moritz chuckles
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13:40 dalek rakudo/p5rx: 1431c3e | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
13:40 dalek rakudo/p5rx: Wire the :P5 adverb up to use P5Regex. Doesnm't support much yet, but makes it accessible from Rakudo. A simple check of it worked.
13:40 dalek rakudo/p5rx: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1431c3e7a0
13:40 jnthn Will merge after the release.
13:40 jnthn And of course, still plenty of work to do in the NQP repo on the P5Regex grammar/actions.
13:45 ptl joined #perl6
13:45 nemesys 'nine' around somewhere on freenode?
13:45 sorear no clue
13:46 sorear does it have to be freenode?
13:46 sorear he's in irc.perl.org:#parrot _right now_
13:46 nemesys found him, thx
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13:56 moritz r: enum A <Ax Ay>; class B is A { }
13:56 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A does not support inheritance, so B cannot inherit from it␤at /tmp/zR1qDUyM1m:1␤»
13:59 dalek doc: b4b1564 | moritz++ | lib/X/Inheritance/Unsupported.pod:
13:59 dalek doc: X::Inheritance::Unsupported
13:59 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b4b1564bb6
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14:00 moritz r: has sub foo() { }
14:00 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use 'has' with sub declaration␤at /tmp/8GTfQzuI4p:1␤»
14:03 JimmyZ moritz: s/«//
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14:03 [Coke] r: has pi;
14:03 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed has␤at /tmp/5QMsYy9J9M:1␤»
14:05 dalek doc: 5abd340 | moritz++ | lib/X/Declaration/Scope.pod:
14:05 dalek doc: X::Declaration::Scope
14:05 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5abd34027f
14:05 dalek doc: b20ac1f | moritz++ | lib/X/Inheritance/Unsupported.pod:
14:05 dalek doc: typo, JimmyZ++
14:05 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b20ac1f9ca
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14:28 sirrobert is there a method like $attribute.get_value that works for private attributes?
14:29 jnthn all attributes are private
14:29 jnthn Thus $attribute.get_value will work for has $!x, yes
14:29 sirrobert hmm ok... well, how can I get this to work:
14:30 sirrobert r: class A { has $!id; method gist () { my $str; for self.^attributes -> $attr { $str ~= $attr.name.substr(2)~': '~$attr.get_value(self); }; return $str; } }; my $a = A.new(id => "foo"); say $a;
14:30 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in method gist at /tmp/J_AekoPFzO:1␤␤id: ␤»
14:30 sirrobert the return of get_value() there is always null for $!foo and correct for $.foo
14:30 diakopter jnthn!
14:31 sirrobert (if $.foo is defined in the class, I mean)
14:31 jnthn o/ diakopter
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14:32 jnthn sirrobert: Remember that the default constructor doesn't initialize private attributes.
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14:32 sirrobert ohh...
14:32 jnthn So the problem is that yo're never putting anything in $!id
14:32 sirrobert I don't think I knew that =) thanks
14:33 diakopter that has surprised me both times I learned it
14:33 jnthn I suspect if you fix that, the introspection works fine :)
14:33 sirrobert cool, I appreciate it.
14:34 diakopter it just seems to me if the caller has the power to *create* an object, what's wrong with letting it initialize its private data
14:35 diakopter "because the attributes are private" holds no water with me
14:35 PerlJam why not?
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14:36 PerlJam The fact that they are private means that they are an implementation detail that is anot and should not be part of the user-visible interface
14:36 PerlJam s/anot/not/
14:36 diakopter sure, after the object is created
14:36 PerlJam no, there is not temporal component here.
14:37 jnthn it's a refactoring thing
14:37 jnthn It's good if all the things that relate to a "has $!foo" are contained within the class
14:38 jnthn Thus you can do as you wish with it without having to care about the class consumers, provided you retain expected behavior.
14:38 moritz also if the user supplies an object at construction time, there's not much sense it making it private
14:39 [Coke] I suspect actual private attributes are going to be a big mindset change for some fivers.
14:39 moritz because the user already has access to the object. Why not make it available through an accessor?
14:39 diakopter and non-fivers like me
14:39 [Coke] diakopter: what language are you used to that lets you poke at private attributes from outside the class
14:39 sirrobert what language did you come from most recently, diakopter?
14:39 [Coke] ?
14:39 [Coke] heh.
14:40 moritz javascript? :-)
14:40 sirrobert (also, does Perl 6 have a concept of "protected")
14:40 GlitchMr Perl 5
14:40 diakopter any language where you can explicitly set a private member in a constructor
14:40 dalek nqp: 3c6c7ea | jonathan++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
14:40 dalek nqp: First cut of Perl 5 style character classes.
14:40 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3c6c7ea287
14:40 dalek nqp: 3413cee | jonathan++ | t/p5regex/ (2 files):
14:40 dalek nqp: Run some basic tests for Perl 5 character classes.
14:40 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/3413cee6e2
14:40 * sirrobert hearts javascript.
14:41 GlitchMr Python
14:41 GlitchMr PHP
14:41 GlitchMr Java
14:41 diakopter C#
14:41 jnthn diakopter: You can explicitly set it in the BUILD submethod.
14:42 jnthn It's just that the default things won't do that.
14:42 GlitchMr GetField() in C# ;)
14:42 sirrobert jnthn++
14:42 nuba sirrobert: you can also U+2764 unicode, then you get ❤
14:42 diakopter ok. in that case, it's confusing that the default things will do that on non-private stuff
14:42 GlitchMr In Java you can use Reflection
14:42 sirrobert nuba: thanks =)
14:42 GlitchMr In PHP you can convert object to array and access internals
14:43 sirrobert not sure how to enter that in my terminal (or irssi)... gooooogling
14:43 GlitchMr $class = new SimpleClass; $classvars = (array)$class; echo $classvars["\0SimpleClass\0answer"];
14:43 GlitchMr Yes, null
14:43 JimmyZ PHP has a Reflection class ;)
14:43 moritz fwiw you can use introspection in p6 too to get private attributes
14:43 diakopter [Coke]: that's kindof rude. I'm sorry for not using your terminology properly
14:44 sirrobert
14:44 sirrobert ha
14:44 GlitchMr php > var_dump($class->{"\0SimpleClass\0answer"});
14:44 nuba screen's copy and paste works too: ❤
14:44 GlitchMr PHP Fatal error:  Cannot access property started with '\0' in php shell code on line 1
14:44 GlitchMr \0 is hax
14:44 GlitchMr But well, that's PHP, so this is expected
14:45 sirrobert nuba: yeah, but my computer's broken... it doesn't let my copy/paste between power cycles ;)
14:45 [Coke] diakopter: I have no idea what you're apologizing for.
14:45 GlitchMr Also, Ruby with .send
14:45 [Coke] ... or if you're suggesting I should.
14:45 GlitchMr Or simply extending class ;)
14:45 sirrobert [Coke]:  I think he's responding to the tone he inferred from your question about his prior language (and the subsequent 'heh.')
14:47 diakopter sirrobert: I wrote a lot of Perl 5 [that generates C] last week, a ton of NQP the several weeks before that, a bunch of C the weeks before that, a bunch of Java at $dayjob before that, a ton of JavaScript before that, a decent amount of C# before that, and I don't remember more than 6 months ago.  A lot of Perl 5 I seem to recall
14:47 sirrobert diakopter: cool =)
14:47 clintongormley left #perl6
14:47 moritz diversity++
14:47 sirrobert it's great to have a well-rounded background
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14:48 masak morning, #perl6
14:48 colomon \o
14:49 sirrobert hi masak
14:49 jnthn o/ masak
14:49 diakopter it was a rhetorical question meant to demean, not one actually seeking information
14:49 PerlJam diakopter: I didn't take it that way.  I thought he was seeking a point of commonality.
14:49 diakopter because it strongly implied that no language lets you do that by the definition of private
14:50 jnthn What're the Perl 5 translations of what Perl 5 calls \b and \B?
14:50 jnthn er, s:1st/5/6/
14:50 diakopter (and therefore I wouldn't be able to answer the question, because there wouldn't be a language I was coming from that met that criterion)
14:50 masak jnthn: <|w> and... something?
14:50 moritz jnthn: \b   comes out as >>|<<   :-)
14:50 moritz ie left or right word boundary
14:50 jnthn aha
14:51 masak moritz: yes, but <|w> means that too.
14:51 moritz correct
14:51 jnthn thanks
14:51 moritz I forgot that, even though I think I implemented it :-)
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14:51 moritz r: say '...foo' ~~ /<|w>./
14:51 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«「f」␤␤»
14:52 [Coke] diakopter: it was not a rhetorical question. it was an actual question because I assumed you were coming from perl5. the heh was because someone else asked the exact same question when I did.
14:52 diakopter I didn't see the heh :)
14:52 jnthn masak, moritz: thanks
14:52 GlitchMr Just wondering. Can I write this more cleanly?
14:52 GlitchMr ([+] @val) / @val
14:53 moritz yes
14:53 diakopter [Coke]: ok, I guess I didn't know there were non-private privates in Perl 5... are there?
14:53 moritz mean(@val), if you define &mean first
14:53 moritz diakopter: if you do inside-out objects, yes :-)
14:53 moritz but perl 5 does not supply a default constructor
14:54 moritz so if you can initialize private attributes via a ->new() call is left to the class
14:54 diakopter like every other language
14:54 GlitchMr I guess that mean() isn't builtin or method
14:54 [Coke] diakopter: there's really nothing private in perl5 if you have the source. as opposed to, say, Java.
14:54 moritz GlitchMr: that's why I wrote "if you define &mean first"
14:55 diakopter [Coke]: I thought that was my point when I wrote above that you implying there was no valid answer to the question
14:55 sirrobert r: say {a=><a b c>}<a>.WHAT;
14:55 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
14:55 diakopter (that Perl 5 doesn't have privates)
14:55 sirrobert Why would I want a Parcel instead of an Array ?
14:55 sirrobert (in general)
14:56 moritz sirrobert: parcels are cheaper
14:56 diakopter ok, I'm sorry for feeling attacked; I'll get over it.
14:57 sirrobert moritz: ok
14:57 PerlJam diakopter: If you feel like you're being attacked on #perl6 ... YOU'RE WRONG!   ;-)
14:58 sirrobert moritz:  in JSON::Tiny, does it seem reasonable to you to render Parcels as JSON arrays?
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14:58 moritz sirrobert: yes
14:58 sirrobert moritz want me to implement and do a pull request or add an issue?
14:59 diakopter PerlJam: you're right; I shouldn't be touchy. :(
14:59 moritz sirrobert: might be a one-word fix, lemme try
14:59 masak from docs/release_guide.pod: "Rakudo will generally issue its own development release two days after the Parrot release." -- Parrot released one day late this month. does that mean Rakudo release is tomorrow?
15:00 jnthn masak: shouldn't
15:00 moritz I'd say we stick to Thursday, unless our release manager sees a good reason to dealay
15:00 jnthn masak: I think tadzik++ will cut tonight or so
15:00 moritz especially since we don't depend on the new parrot (I think)
15:00 PerlJam diakopter: A way to look at it is that humans have public parts (arms, legs, etc.) that you can decorate at "construction" time, but you really, really shouldn't initialize the contents of the human's stomach without cutting them open first (or using the stomach's public interface: the mouth)
15:01 sirrobert moritz: thanks.  Also, is there a reasonable rendering of a Pair?  I thought maybe a single {a:1} object.
15:01 sirrobert moritz:  (those are the two literals I keep bumping into)
15:01 tadzik I'm here
15:01 tadzik I'll make the release today evenings probably
15:01 diakopter PerlJam: yeah, I just don't see why the mouth can't be a constructor
15:02 * tadzik has had a nice Frankfurt on Foot trip today
15:02 moritz sirrobert: not sure about Pair. Since there's no exact equivalence, I'm inclined to leave it out
15:02 sirrobert moritz: fair enough
15:02 moritz could just as well be { "key": "a", "value": 3 }
15:03 sirrobert hmmm nod
15:04 sirrobert is there any concept of perl5-style "references" in p6?
15:04 moritz sirrobert: fix for Parcel pushed
15:04 sirrobert moritz++: thanks
15:05 moritz sirrobert: https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2011/1​2/16/where-have-all-the-references-gone/
15:05 sirrobert heh
15:05 moritz I try to make an art form out of answering FAQs with blog posts :-)
15:06 sirrobert I don't know art... but I know what I like =)
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15:06 sirrobert actually I do know art ;)
15:07 moritz thinking more about the question, it seems that scalar containers most closely resemble pointers/references
15:07 sirrobert yeah, that's what I was gleaning...
15:08 moritz binding another scalar container to them is like assignment to a pointer
15:08 sirrobert or sort of like macros to things
15:08 sirrobert (for a very non-technical use of "macro")
15:08 moritz and assigning a value into the container is like assigning to the pointee
15:08 sirrobert ahh, yeah
15:08 sirrobert that makes sense of my experience of it
15:09 sirrobert (and is a C bad-touch)
15:09 moritz but that doesn't put much room for the 'bind a value directly into a container' thing that youc an do in p6
15:09 sirrobert yeah
15:09 moritz and that you can call a method on the container, and it actually works ont he contained value
15:09 sirrobert I like that
15:11 [Coke] ugh, doing regexes in java is so painful. :(
15:12 * tadzik hugs [Coke]
15:12 moritz have you \\\ed today? :-)
15:12 [Coke] I was not implying there was no valid answer to the question.
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15:12 jnthn At least C# provides an @"..." construct so you can write regexes sanely.
15:13 geekosaur mmm, leaning toothpicks
15:13 [Coke] I find the interface to s/// bizarre.
15:15 moritz I didn't mean to answer any question, just that languages without regex literals generally require a ridculous amount of backslashes
15:15 * [Coke] need a perl6-on-JVM interface for the regexes only.
15:15 [Coke] huh. timezone shift somewhere, as feather is now running my cron job taht I didn't expect for another 45m.
15:16 [Coke] ... or is that job leftover from a day ago? hurm...
15:16 sirrobert so, I updated JSON::Tiny but now my script says:  Missing or wrong version of dependency '/home/sirrobert/.perl6/_git/rakudo-​star-2012.07/install/lib/parrot/4.6.​0/languages/perl6/lib/JSON/Tiny.pm'
15:17 sirrobert I updated with panda install JSON::Tiny
15:17 sirrobert (which worked fine)
15:17 sirrobert I didn't specify a version anywhere...
15:19 FROGGS is it okay that its a .pm and not a .pm6 ?
15:19 [Coke] yes.
15:19 sirrobert I believe so
15:19 jnthn std: m/a{2}/
15:19 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of {2} as general quantifier; in Perl 6 please use X**2 at /tmp/y1rqYtkVTN line 1:�------> [32mm/a{2}[33m�[31m/[0m�Check failed�FAILED 00:00 41m�»
15:19 sirrobert I have use v6; and am using the perl6 interpreter
15:20 jnthn std: m:p5/a{2}/
15:20 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unrecognized adverb :p5(1) at /tmp/99oRWdfxKz line 1:�------> [32mm[33m�[31m:p5/a{2}/[0m�Unsupported use of {2} as general quantifier; in Perl 6 please use X**2 at /tmp/99oRWdfxKz line 1:�------> [32mm:p5/a{2}[33m�[31m/[0m�Check…
15:20 jnthn std: m:P5/a{2}/
15:20 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 47m␤»
15:20 jnthn std: m:P5/a]/
15:20 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 47m␤»
15:21 [Coke] weird. I had a lot of old tests running for rakudo that were hung. results from the last few days might be screwy.
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15:25 jnthn std: m:P5/a]b/
15:25 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 47m␤»
15:27 geekosaur I don't think std knows more than very basic parsing for m:p5 regexes?
15:27 masak ?eval "a]b" =~ /a]b/
15:27 masak $ perl -Mstrict -wE 'say "a]b" =~ /a]b/'
15:27 masak 1
15:32 jnthn geekosaur: Yeah, but it gets that right and looking at the grammar I can't see how on earth it does so
15:32 jnthn eval "a]b" =~ /a]b/
15:32 buubot_backup jnthn: 1
15:32 jnthn eval "a)b" =~ /a)b/
15:32 buubot_backup jnthn: ERROR: Unmatched ) in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/a) <-- HERE b/ at (eval 20) line 1.
15:32 jnthn aha
15:32 jnthn good
15:33 masak phew :)
15:33 * masak .oO( all magical characters are magical, but some are more magical than others )
15:33 jnthn ;)
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15:35 jnthn eval "adc" =~ /a[^]b]c/
15:35 buubot_backup jnthn: 1
15:35 jnthn wtbh!
15:36 diakopter heh
15:36 jnthn eval "adc" =~ /a[^b]]c/
15:36 buubot_backup jnthn: No output.
15:36 jnthn eval "]" =~ /a[]]c/
15:36 buubot_backup jnthn: No output.
15:36 jnthn eval "]" =~ /a[]]/
15:36 buubot_backup jnthn: No output.
15:36 jnthn eval "a]" =~ /a[]]/
15:36 buubot_backup jnthn: 1
15:37 jnthn eval "a]" =~ /a[b]]/
15:37 buubot_backup jnthn: No output.
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15:37 jnthn eval "ab" =~ /a[]b/
15:37 buubot_backup jnthn: ERROR: Unmatched [ in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/a[ <-- HERE ]b/ at (eval 20) line 1.
15:37 masak :D
15:37 masak eval "ab" =~ /a[]b]/
15:37 buubot_backup masak: 1
15:38 * masak toys with concepts like "far too DWIM" and "overdwimmery"
15:41 sirrobert I just rebuilt rakudo star and when I run panda (or make) I get "Missing or wrong version of dependency 'src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm'"
15:41 sirrobert any tips on resolution?
15:42 sirrobert ufo seems to work
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15:43 masak sirrobert: did you make install?
15:43 jnthn masak: far too fun to parse :P
15:43 sirrobert I did, but I just realized I didn't wipe out the modules dir
15:43 sirrobert doing that now
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15:44 sirrobert ok, that seems to have fixed it
15:45 sirrobert I had some modules that required ... something else =)
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16:12 FROGGS masak: I'm here btw too (if you dont wanna email)
16:14 masak FROGGS: oh hai :)
16:14 FROGGS hi
16:14 * masak sees FROGGS' latest email
16:15 masak FROGGS: ah, I suspected you wanted to do lots of sub declarations.
16:15 masak FROGGS: first off, that's unhygienic.
16:15 FROGGS why that?
16:15 masak because you want to influence how the mainline context looks, not the macro context.
16:16 masak note that I'm using "unhygienic" in a very detached sense.
16:16 pmichaud masak! \o/
16:16 masak I don't mean that it's wrong.
16:16 masak clearly, it's what you want to do here.
16:16 masak second, you can't just put unquotes anywhere. they have to be in term position.
16:16 masak so "I believe and hope" are adequate descriptions of the wishful thinking involved.
16:17 masak (this may change if TimToady gets his proposal through with a more general unquote model)
16:17 FROGGS ya I'm actually not sure how to do it right
16:18 FROGGS but I still don't get the idea about your first sentence
16:18 masak the one about hygiene?
16:19 FROGGS one reason for using macros to me is doing things simpler and faster
16:19 FROGGS and that is what I wanna achieve
16:19 masak yes.
16:19 masak your use case is totally legit.
16:19 masak mind if I throw it up as a gist so we can all discuss it?
16:20 moritz r: constant name = 'foo'; sub ::(name) () { say 42 }; foo()
16:20 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&foo' called (line 1)␤»
16:20 moritz r: constant name = 'foo'; sub ::(name) () { say 42 }; say ::MY.keys
16:20 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«0␤»
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16:21 cognominal joined #perl6
16:21 masak r: constant name = 'foo'; sub ::(name) () { say 42 }; eval 'foo'
16:21 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&foo' called (line 1)␤»
16:21 masak moritz: I think an RT ticket went in that said that the sub gets the wrong name or something.
16:22 moritz r: constant name = 'foo'; sub ::(name) () { say 42 }; say ::(name)()
16:22 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«Symbol 'foo' not found␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:9761␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2304␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2302␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:843␤  in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:824␤  in …
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16:26 FROGGS did I missed something during reconnect?
16:26 masak <masak> mind if I throw it up as a gist so we can all discuss it?
16:26 moritz FROGGS: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today can tell, in general
16:26 masak (your use case)
16:26 FROGGS great
16:27 FROGGS k, I've got the gist
16:27 masak https://gist.github.com/3438222
16:27 FROGGS ya
16:27 masak it would be nice to make this work.
16:27 masak with AST macros, I mean.
16:27 masak I don't think it's too much to ask.
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16:27 FROGGS so, when do I have to use these { {{{ }}} } things?
16:28 masak when you're building program code dynamically.
16:28 FROGGS If the content of that var should be put in, right?
16:28 masak right.
16:28 FROGGS cool
16:28 moritz but it won't work that way
16:28 masak but you seem to be assuming the content of those variables are strings.
16:28 FROGGS hmm?
16:28 masak they're not. not on my shift, anyway.
16:28 masak they're ASTs.
16:29 FROGGS okay
16:29 moritz FROGGS: the problem is the sub name
16:29 moritz you can't put any expression in the place of a sub name
16:29 moritz just like you can't write
16:29 FROGGS you mean the part at line 13? $method?
16:29 masak FROGGS: you seem to be consistently using { {{{ }}} }. it should be just {{{ }}}
16:29 moritz sub  "foo" ~ $bar () { }
16:29 * masak fixes in the gist
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16:30 moritz so, for now we don't have a mechanism for replacing arbitrary parts of syntax with {{{ }}}
16:30 FROGGS hmmm
16:31 FROGGS I'm just trying to do what I usually would do in C
16:31 masak right.
16:31 moritz the difference is that in C you create a string that represents the program code
16:31 moritz with AST macros you don't go through the string layer
16:32 moritz (which makes them much safer to compose)
16:32 masak pugs: macro _code($name) { "sub $name \{ say 'OH HAI' }" }; _code('foo'); foo
16:32 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
16:32 masak FROGGS: Pugs has string macros :)
16:33 FROGGS okay
16:33 FROGGS hmmm, not ideal if it wont work at the end ;o)
16:33 masak FROGGS: believe me, I do take your use case seriously.
16:34 FROGGS ya, I believe you
16:34 masak but I'd like for it to work (1) with ASTs, and (2) with the unhygiene being explicitly specified.
16:34 FROGGS k
16:35 masak those are just my preferences, of course. :) I happen to like hygienic AST macros.
16:35 masak if anyone wants to work on unhygienic AST macros or textual macros, that's fine by me.
16:35 FROGGS you need to show me exactly what you mean at some point
16:36 masak as someone on the conf pointed out, the combination of D2-level macros and the nqp:: namespace for AST introspection is potentially very interesting.
16:36 masak I was hoping to explore that a bit this weekend.
16:38 FROGGS brb
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16:42 dalek nqp: 6902f1d | jonathan++ | / (3 files):
16:42 dalek nqp: Handle funkiness in Perl 5 character class parsing, and add some tests to cover it.
16:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6902f1d3f4
16:42 dalek nqp: 8eb6810 | jonathan++ | src/QRegex/P5Regex/ (2 files):
16:42 dalek nqp: Get various backslash sequences in place.
16:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8eb6810a02
16:42 dalek nqp: 564768b | jonathan++ | t/p5regex/ (2 files):
16:42 dalek nqp: Various meta-chars tests.
16:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/564768bf1e
16:42 dalek nqp: 2b0173e | jonathan++ | t/p5regex/rx_metachars:
16:42 dalek nqp: Tests for \w, \W, \d and \D.
16:42 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2b0173e03b
16:43 Pleiades` joined #perl6
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16:47 jnthn airport &
16:48 sirrobert I don't quite get the syntax for overloading the <> operator via a role...
16:48 sirrobert multi method postfix:'<>' (Str $str) { ... }
16:48 sirrobert that seemed to have a parse error
16:49 masak std: multi method postfix:<< <> >>(Str $str) { ... }
16:49 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  'method' declaration outside of class at /tmp/PfQ5DIk2qE line 1:â�¤------> [32mmulti method postfix:<< <> >>(Str $str) [33mâ��[31m{ ... }[0mâ�¤  $str is declared but not used at /tmp/PfQ5DIk2qE line 1:â�¤------> [32mmulti method postfix:<< <> >…
16:49 sirrobert ah
16:49 masak std: class A { multi method postfix:<< <> >>(Str $str) { ... } }
16:49 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $str is declared but not used at /tmp/MwqTgE0Aax line 1:â�¤------> [32ms A { multi method postfix:<< <> >>(Str [33mâ��[31m$str) { ... } }[0mâ�¤ok 00:00 43mâ�¤Â»
16:49 masak std: class A { multi method postfix:<< <> >>(Str $str) { $str } }
16:49 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
16:49 masak \o/
16:49 sirrobert heh thanks
16:50 FROGGS back
16:50 moritz you probably want method postcirumfix:«< >»() though
16:50 moritz there is no postfix <>
16:51 sirrobert so I saw =)
16:51 sirrobert postcircumfix
16:51 sirrobert I just realized that heh
16:53 masak though you also probably might not want to override postcirumfix:«< >»()
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16:53 masak as it is syntactic sugar for postcirumfix:<{ }>()
16:53 sirrobert why?
16:54 sirrobert ohh
16:54 sirrobert yeah, it actually wouldn't let me do <> without {}
16:54 sirrobert so I just did {} and <> worked
16:55 masak \o/
16:55 masak actually, you most probably want .at_key
16:56 timotimo so postfix:<> would actually be like $pretty_object<> or something?
16:56 moritz yes
16:56 moritz r: sub postfix:<>($a) { say $a }; 42<>
16:56 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of <>;  in Perl 6 please use lines() to read input, ('') to represent a null string or () to represent an empty list␤at /tmp/8rTvvfwAt1:1␤»
16:56 timotimo heh.
16:57 sirrobert I hit that earlier =)
16:57 moritz also it would probably stil lose against the empty postcircumfix
16:57 moritz hm, not sure actually
16:57 timotimo r: sub postfix:{}($a) { say "$a bracey brace" }; 42{}
16:57 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
16:57 timotimo whoops?
16:58 moritz r: sub postfix:<{}>($a) { say "$a bracey brace" }; 42{}
16:58 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«42 bracey brace␤»
16:58 timotimo interesting. how did i trigger a loop there?
16:58 moritz timotimo: it created a zero-width match, which was then quantified in the grammar
16:58 timotimo aaaah
16:58 moritz timotimo: so it matched the empty postfix all over again
16:58 timotimo of course.
16:59 moritz wouldn't that be a cute way to write a debugger?
16:59 moritz write an empty-string postfix
16:59 moritz that automatigacally gets inserted everywhere :-)
16:59 timotimo heh heh
16:59 * masak submits rakudobug
16:59 sirrobert wow, that would be great
16:59 masak shouldn't be allowed to write empty postfixes, methinks
16:59 timotimo why not on a semicolon?
16:59 sirrobert heh
16:59 sirrobert timotimo: recursion problem?
17:00 timotimo only if you use semicolons in your implementation of the ; operator :3
17:00 sirrobert heh
17:01 timotimo i bet there's tricks to circumvent semicolons if one is super careful
17:01 sirrobert I've only found one case in javascript where semicolons are needed
17:01 sirrobert (outside of for loops, that is)
17:07 timotimo perl6 should have incircumfix.
17:07 timotimo as in  "foo" ><( "yoink" )°> "bar", the fish incircumfix operator
17:08 masak that's just a regular infix, like infix:<?? !!>
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17:09 timotimo ?? !! isn't a regular infix, though. or is it?
17:09 timotimo the last time i checked it was special-cased in the grammar
17:11 timotimo r: sub infix:['><>( )°>']($a, $b, $c) { say "behind fish: $a"; say "in fish: $b"; say "in front of fish: $c"; }; "foo" ><( "bar" )°> "baz";
17:11 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 3␤  in sub infix:<> at /tmp/iwJoJQiM0Z:1␤  in block  at /tmp/iwJoJQiM0Z:1␤␤»
17:11 timotimo whoops, typo'd
17:11 timotimo r: sub infix:['><( )°>']($a, $b, $c) { say "behind fish: $a"; say "in fish: $b"; say "in front of fish: $c"; }; "foo" ><( "bar" )°> "baz";
17:11 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 3␤  in sub infix:<> at /tmp/PyjImSWlB0:1␤  in block  at /tmp/PyjImSWlB0:1␤␤»
17:11 benabik It would need to have an is parsed, I think.
17:11 timotimo does that already work?
17:12 benabik I dunno.
17:13 timotimo r: sub infix:['>( )°∃']($a, $b, $c) { say "behind fish: $a"; say "in fish: $b"; say "in front of fish: $c"; }; "foo" >( "bar" )°∃ "baz";
17:13 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix  instead␤at /tmp/LwB3kVLcQB:1␤»
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17:15 moritz rakudo doesn't understand infix:[...]
17:15 masak timotimo: I don't remember infix:<?? !!> being that special-cased.
17:15 moritz just infix:«...» and <...>
17:17 timotimo oh, OK
17:17 timotimo r: sub infix:«>( )°∃»($a, $b, $c) { say "behind fish: $a"; say "in fish: $b"; say "in front of fish: $c"; }; "foo" >( "bar" )°∃ "baz";
17:17 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/4Z7khZ6cIj:1␤»
17:20 timotimo r: sub infix:<^-) (-^>($a, $b, $c) { say "$a | $b | $c" }; 100 ^-) "foo" (-^ 200;
17:20 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix - instead␤at /tmp/qHIdzDkkR0:1␤»
17:20 timotimo not *really* sure where i went wrong there :|
17:20 * masak neither
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17:24 dalek ecosystem: 9831204 | (Sir Robert Burbridge)++ | META.list:
17:24 dalek ecosystem: added Masquerade
17:24 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/9831204911
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17:25 masak o/~ "Masquerade! Paper faces on parade... Masquerade! Hide your face, so the world will never find you!" o/~
17:25 sirrobert heh
17:25 benabik ?? !! does seem to have a custom token in Rakudo's grammar.
17:25 benabik https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/b​lob/nom/src/Perl6/Grammar.pm#L2667
17:26 masak sirrobert: interesting module. sirrobert++
17:26 sirrobert benabik: well, it's custom, but not uniqely accounted for as a type
17:26 sirrobert masak: thanks =)
17:27 benabik sirrobert: Right, it's infix, but it parses differently than other infix
17:27 benabik To create a new similar operator you'd also need a custom parse rule.
17:27 benabik Which is NYI
17:27 timotimo thank you for digging it out. it's exactly what i meant
17:28 sirrobert don't you need a custom parse rule for all of them?
17:28 sirrobert they're just simple for the others...
17:28 sirrobert (not that I'm an expert on how to read the tokenization code)
17:29 benabik I'm not sure the technical details of how Rakudo does it, but it basically creates a token for any infix:<foo> sub.
17:30 sirrobert inside the infix token definition is a grammatical interpreter
17:30 sirrobert the others have it too, they just only need <sym> to grab an already-defined symbol
17:31 sirrobert of course, I don't get the <O(...)> bit, so what do I know =)
17:31 * sirrobert is speaking boldly from ignorance
17:31 ptl joined #perl6
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17:32 masak the <O(...)> bit is just a method call, no?
17:32 sirrobert I believe ;)
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17:36 moritz yes
17:36 moritz and it "just" parses an expression with precedence not looser than the argument to pass to it
17:36 masak then it can't be that tricky. :) method calls can usually be understood.
17:37 moritz s/to/you/
17:37 moritz *how* it does that is a different matter, not so easy to understand, IMHO
17:39 masak aye.
17:40 * masak discovers a wonderfully strangely consistent line in "Into the Woods": "better take the moment present as a present for the moment"
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17:41 timotimo (°∃ is a great string for a prefix operator that does nothing except pass the argument to say. it's the parrot operator :D
17:43 moritz I'm skimming through STD's method EXPR
17:43 moritz and the key seems to be not to read &reduce on the first pass :-)
17:43 moritz the loop starting at line 4644 is where it starts to get interesting
17:44 moritz the actual parsing starts with   my @t = $here.$termish
17:44 moritz which basically calls the <termish> rule
17:44 moritz which parses   <prefix>*<term> [<postfix> | <postcircumfix>]* or so
17:45 moritz then it twiddles the prefixes and postfixes according to their relative precedence
17:46 cognominal joined #perl6
17:46 moritz and then loop after that parses infixish
17:46 moritz which is infix or meta operators that can act as infixes
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17:48 moritz TimToady_: what's an example for $infix<fake> ?
17:48 tadzik oh hai
17:48 moritz lol it's tadzik!
17:48 tadzik lol! \o/
17:48 tadzik I'm holding a knife and I'm going to cut a release
17:48 moritz wield your sledgescalpel!
17:49 tadzik and then maybe enjoy the one last glass of apfelwine
17:49 tadzik or maybe last \d+ glass
17:54 moritz http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/blo​bdiff/fd7895cf8ded27bc2c1cddf7c72c17d6​bdc95df0..24f4b7da:/pod/perlfunc.pod
17:58 tadzik do we want to target the new Parrot release?
17:58 tadzik we're on 4.4.0
17:58 moritz if there's no reason to bump the parrot version, we don't bump the parrot version
17:58 tadzik ok, that's mu understanding as well
17:59 moritz that makes it easier for packagers to do their thing
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18:10 tadzik oh noes, nqp doesn't build :(
18:10 tadzik can anyone check on a fresh working tree? I get Missing or wrong version of dependency 'src/stage2/QRegex.nqp'
18:11 * moritz tries
18:14 Woodi joined #perl6
18:16 tadzik same after git clean -fdx :\
18:17 ptl joined #perl6
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18:19 moritz built fine here
18:19 tadzik huh
18:19 tadzik after realclean and friends, on HEAD?
18:19 desertm4x_ joined #perl6
18:19 moritz after git clean -xdf, on nqp/master
18:24 moritz on parrot RELEASE_4_4_0
18:26 tadzik ok, something's seriously wrong on my box. Now it doesn't build with "make: nqp: Command not found"
18:26 moritz does 'git status' indicate any missing files?
18:26 tadzik nope
18:26 tadzik I'll try --gen-parrot
18:27 tadzik that may take some time on this hotel wifi
18:27 moritz if you don't have a replacement machine, I could chime in and do the release
18:28 [Coke] chime or chip?
18:28 tadzik it's somewhere between 32 and 180 kBps
18:28 moritz I don't know, I don't speak English. I could do the release :-)
18:29 [Coke] mmhehehehe.
18:29 tadzik I'll go and send a postcard and see if it gets any better in my absence :)
18:29 * [Coke] tries to get (?:(?i)(?:[+-]?)(?:(?=[.]?[0123456789])(?:[01​23456789]*)(?:(?:[.])(?:[0123456789]{0,}))?)) to work in java.
18:29 moritz is that a generated regex?
18:29 [Coke] from Regexp::Common, aye.
18:30 tadzik . o O ( java.util.org.cpan.regexp.common )
18:32 ptl joined #perl6
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18:33 [Coke] holy rusted metal, it worked as is.
18:42 moritz probably because it doesn't contain a backslash :-)
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18:44 * [Coke] leaves a comment in the source thanking Regexp::Common!
18:46 masak Regexp::Common++
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19:16 masak tadzik: how's le release coming along?
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19:23 leont Want to try out rakudo without having to compile stuff, but Ubuntu ships a fairly old version (2011.07) :-/
19:24 sirrobert What's a good way to comment/ignore a large chunk of code temporarily (large = a few dozen lines)/
19:24 sirrobert ?
19:24 masak leont: the future isn't evenly distributed :/
19:24 cognominal joined #perl6
19:24 masak sirrobert: =comment ?
19:24 benabik What's the p6 block comment?  I seem to recall something like #`{ }
19:24 benabik Ooh, POD comments too.
19:25 sirrobert masak:  ahh, cool
19:25 sirrobert benabik: hmmm didn't know about #'{}
19:25 sirrobert thanks
19:26 leont Am I correct when I say that «is_prime(any(9,10,11))» should equal «any(is_prime(9), is_prime(10), is_prime(11))»?
19:26 sirrobert butterfly tricks:  is there a succinct way to check whether two arrays have the same values, regardless of order?
19:26 benabik It's #`{}  (Backtick, not apostrophe.)  And it appears to let you use any and any number of brackets...  Although I'm reading from spec not from implementation.  :-D
19:27 masak sirrobert: huh, sorry. it's '=begin comment' and then '=end comment', of course.
19:27 sirrobert masak: cool
19:27 masak sirrobert: @a.sort >>===<< @b.sort
19:28 sirrobert whoa
19:28 benabik You should be able to use =for comment if you want to comment out an entire chunk of code separated by newlines from the rest.
19:28 masak leont: yes.
19:29 masak sirrobert: theoretically, @a.Bag === @b.Bag should also work at some point.
19:29 sirrobert where can I read about >>===<< ?
19:30 masak sirrobert: http://doc.perl6.org/language​/operators#infix%20%3D%3D%3D
19:30 sirrobert great, thanks
19:30 masak oh, there's a docbug there.
19:30 * masak fixes
19:32 dalek doc: cfcc2b9 | (Carl Mäsak)++ | lib/operators.pod:
19:32 dalek doc: [operators.pod] fix copy-paste-o
19:32 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cfcc2b9479
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19:34 sirrobert r: {a => 1, b => 2} >>===<< {a=>1, b=>3}
19:34 p6eval rakudo befe7c:  ( no output )
19:34 sirrobert r: say {a => 1, b => 2} >>===<< {a=>1, b=>3}
19:34 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«("a" => Bool::True, "b" => Bool::False).hash␤»
19:34 sirrobert cool
19:34 sirrobert key-by-key
19:35 masak nice.
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19:37 moritz masak++
19:37 moritz # doc fix
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19:38 moritz it just seems that you (or soembody else) pushed an outdated branch again
19:38 * masak should contribute much more, but is too distracted all the time :/
19:38 tadzik *pat pat* I know the feeling
19:38 masak moritz: I edited through the github website.
19:38 moritz masak: then it wasn't you :-)
19:39 masak gee, I hope not.
19:39 masak that would be horribly weird. :P
19:39 tadzik a clone running wild!
19:39 tadzik okay, I'm totally unable to build nqp today :(
19:39 tadzik anyone with a spare tuit to run it today? Sorry for failing
19:39 moritz I can do it
19:40 tadzik awesome, thanks moritz++
19:40 moritz tadzik: if you want to help, you could start to prepare a release announcement
19:40 * masak pats tadzik back :)
19:40 tadzik okay
19:40 moritz that's pretty much independent of the other tasks
19:40 * masak .oO( we should have separate release announcement managers ) :P
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19:42 dalek rakudo/nom: 2d5ec92 | moritz++ | tools/update-tai-utc.pl:
19:42 dalek rakudo/nom: [tools] automatically assume correct path to src/core/tai-utc.pm
19:42 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2d5ec92ad4
19:43 sirrobert r: 1 ~~ any(3,2)
19:43 p6eval rakudo befe7c:  ( no output )
19:43 sirrobert r: say 1 ~~ any(3,2)
19:43 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:43 sirrobert r: say False ~~ any(True, False);
19:43 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:43 sirrobert r: say False ~~ any(True, True);
19:43 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:43 sirrobert ack
19:43 moritz ~~ True   always returns True
19:44 moritz so that you can write
19:44 moritz $something ~~ {code}
19:44 pmichaud std: sub postfix:{}($a) { say 'whatever' };   # checking
19:44 sirrobert ok
19:44 moritz and if that code returns True, the match succeeds
19:44 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Null operator is not allowed at /tmp/ZcZeCltvH7 line 1:â�¤------> [32msub postfix:{}[33mâ��[31m($a) { say 'whatever' };   # checking[0mâ�¤    expecting horizontal whitespaceâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 40mâ�¤Â»
19:44 pmichaud a-ha
19:44 sirrobert how do I find out if anything in a list is false
19:44 sirrobert ?
19:44 sirrobert in particular:
19:44 sirrobert r: ({a => 1, b => 2} >>===<< {a=>1, b=>3}).values
19:44 p6eval rakudo befe7c:  ( no output )
19:44 sirrobert r: say ({a => 1, b => 2} >>===<< {a=>1, b=>3}).values
19:44 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True False␤»
19:45 moritz nr: say so first *.not, (1, 2, 0, 5)
19:45 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:45 moritz erm, wait
19:45 moritz nr: say so grep *.not, (1, 2, 0, 5)
19:45 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
19:45 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:45 moritz nr: say so grep *.not, (1, 2, 4, 5)
19:45 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:45 sirrobert I've never used "so" before ...
19:45 sirrobert hmm
19:45 moritz boolean context
19:45 masak sirrobert: 'so' is like '?'
19:45 masak except it's a listop.
19:45 moritz nr: say not all (1, 2, 4, 5)
19:45 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:45 colomon nr: say  grep *.not, (1, 2, 4, 5)
19:46 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«␤»
19:46 moritz masak: it's actually looser prec than listop
19:46 moritz masak: it's loose unary
19:46 moritz nr: say none(1, 2, 3, 0)
19:46 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«none(1, 2, 3, 0)␤»
19:46 moritz nr: say so none(1, 2, 3, 0)
19:46 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:46 moritz nr: say so none(1, 2, 3, 5)
19:46 p6eval rakudo befe7c, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:46 moritz erm, stays with 'not all'
19:46 sirrobert I don't see an entry for "so" on doc.perl6.org
19:46 pmichaud say ?! any(1, 2, 3, 0)
19:47 pmichaud r: say ?! any(1, 2, 3, 0)
19:47 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:47 moritz sirrobert:
19:47 moritz http://doc.perl6.org/so
19:47 tadzik what's tclc?
19:47 moritz the anchor link might not work yet
19:47 sirrobert huh... I didn't see it in the index
19:47 tadzik I seem to have missed something interestin g;)
19:47 sirrobert oh
19:47 sirrobert ok
19:48 pmichaud r: say ?^ any(1, 2, 3, 0)
19:48 masak tadzik: 'titlecase lowercase'
19:48 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:48 tadzik oh
19:48 moritz sirrobert: I don't add operators to the index yet
19:48 sirrobert ok =)
19:48 [Coke] moritz: http://doc.perl6.org/!!
19:48 ptl joined #perl6
19:48 pmichaud r: say ?^ 0
19:48 ptl joined #perl6
19:48 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:48 pmichaud hrm
19:48 moritz sirrobert: and doc.perl6.org isn't complete yet, but I do my best :-)
19:48 masak tadzik: it's so Unicode-adapted that I don't really understand it. :)
19:48 pmichaud I wonder if ?^ should autothread
19:48 pmichaud we don't have any autothreading booleans
19:49 moritz why would we want autothreading booleans?
19:49 pmichaud so that I can ask "are any of the elements of this list False"  :-)
19:49 moritz pmichaud: you can ask that with  'not all'
19:49 pmichaud and use a junction to do it
19:49 pmichaud r: say not all(1,2,3,4)
19:49 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:50 pmichaud r: say not all(1,2,3,0)
19:50 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:50 sirrobert ok, "so" is what I used to mean by "!!"
19:50 pmichaud yeah, okay, mebbo.
19:50 pmichaud *maybe
19:50 sirrobert "!!" as a prefix, I mean.
19:50 pmichaud still seems like perhaps ?^, ?|, and ?& should perhaps autothread
19:51 moritz the only thing we can't easily ask is "is exactly one of those False?"
19:51 moritz because we don't have a negation of the one() junction
19:51 pmichaud yeah, autothreading over ?^ would enable that, I think.
19:51 sirrobert moritz: huh
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19:52 moritz pmichaud: but it would break the rule that every boolean context collapses the junction
19:52 tadzik heh, tools/contributors.pl lists "niecza" as one of the contributors :)
19:52 moritz tadzik: somebody ++'ed it in a commit message
19:52 tadzik ah, so that's how it works :)
19:53 moritz that, and the github user names
19:54 pmichaud r: say 0 eqv False
19:54 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:54 pmichaud oh well.
19:54 dalek nqp: 656abc9 | moritz++ | VERSION:
19:54 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2012.08
19:54 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/656abc92e7
19:56 dalek rakudo/nom: fc01818 | tadzik++ | docs/announce/2012.08:
19:56 dalek rakudo/nom: Add a first sketch of a new release guide
19:56 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fc018182fd
19:56 pmichaud ...a new release guide?
19:57 moritz announcement, not guide
19:57 tadzik oh well, it's hot here :)
19:57 tadzik announcement of course
19:57 pmichaud yeah, I was wondering if "announcement" was what was meant.  :)
19:57 pmichaud tadzik++ moritz++
19:57 pmichaud ...did I remember to push my changes for the nqp release guide, ooc?
19:57 moritz you did, yes
19:57 pmichaud okay, good.
19:57 moritz the nqp tarball is already on github
19:58 moritz the test for it is still running on my machine, but I don't expect any fallout from it
19:58 pmichaud I worked on that earlier today but was also involved in other conversations at the time
19:58 tadzik looking through the new anno... relea... announcement will be gladly welcome :)
19:58 * pmichaud looks
19:58 pmichaud any issues with the nqp release guide, ooc?
19:58 moritz it requires a reconfigure before it works :-)
19:59 moritz (my Makefile was too old)
19:59 pmichaud that's because I added the "make release" target.  :)
19:59 moritz I know
19:59 ggoebel joined #perl6
19:59 pmichaud nooooooooo!
19:59 * pmichaud reads the announcement
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: d2472a9 | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: bump NQP revision to 2012.08
19:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d2472a97c4
20:00 moritz pmichaud: what's wrong?
20:00 pmichaud what an absolutely delicious irony/coincidence it is that after the Frankfurt YAPC had "Perl 5" on the t-shirts, the Frankfurt release ends up being #55  :-P
20:00 moritz :-)
20:01 pmichaud looks like we just can't get a "6" here at all no matter what happens.
20:01 moritz pmichaud: should we name it Perl instead?
20:01 moritz after the town of Perl (Mosel)
20:01 pmichaud I doubt there's a Perl.pm group.  But perhaps we should start one :-P
20:01 moritz we autovivified one :-)
20:02 pmichaud I think Frankfurt is appropriate for this month's release.
20:02 pmichaud #56 can be Perl.pm if we want to do that.  Or #65  :-P
20:02 fhelmberger joined #perl6
20:02 moritz should deprecation notices only go into the star announcements, or also into the compiler release announcements?
20:02 moritz heh :-)
20:03 pmichaud I'd like them to go in both places, if it's not too much trouble.
20:03 moritz it's just a copy&paste from docs/deprecations
20:03 pmichaud then both.
20:03 ptl joined #perl6
20:03 ptl joined #perl6
20:03 pmichaud Announcement says "June 2012" for some reason.
20:04 moritz and "July" :-)
20:04 moritz I'll fix both
20:04 moritz along with the deprecations
20:05 pmichaud I'm planning to do this month's star release on sun or mon
20:05 moritz ++pmichaud
20:05 dalek rakudo/nom: eb13935 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2012.08:
20:05 dalek rakudo/nom: [announce] fix month, add deprecations from docs/deprecations
20:05 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/eb1393590d
20:05 pmichaud it might be tue depending on what is happening at mtmh
20:06 pmichaud I already have a long list of tasks from prs and yapceu; I'm hoping I can whittle some of them down during mtmh.
20:06 moritz experience tells that tasks lists only grow at such conferences :-)
20:07 pmichaud indeed... but we do also manage to accomplish some stuff in the process.  :)
20:07 pmichaud like a debugger
20:07 pmichaud and p5-regexes
20:07 pmichaud and new nqp release notes
20:07 moritz everybody happy with rakudo's announcement now?
20:07 moritz aye
20:07 * pmichaud git pull's
20:08 pmichaud "europe" needs a tc.
20:08 moritz which is just a single bit flip in this case :-)
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: cf22052 | moritz++ | VERSION:
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cf22052380
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: 6d97606 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2012.08:
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: [announce] spelling, pmichaud++
20:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6d97606dc7
20:09 sirrobert ok, one more... can I AND a bunch bools stored in a list?  like (False, True, True).&&
20:09 tadzik eb13935 seems to show that we also forgot s/June/July last month :)
20:09 sirrobert AND/OR/ whatever
20:09 masak moritz: isn't it always a single bit flip when upper-casing ASCII?
20:09 moritz masak: it is
20:09 pmichaud ...Larry Wall contributed to this release?  I mean, more so than he usually does, as in a commit or something?
20:09 PerlJam YAPC::EU is the only yearly gathering of Perl hackers in Europe?
20:10 moritz pmichaud: he proposed the format change for Match.gist on IRC
20:10 moritz pmichaud: and we generally count stuff like that as contributions
20:10 pmichaud moritz: works for me
20:10 moritz (ie when soembody was ++'ed in a commit message9
20:11 moritz PerlJam: technically it's the only one advertized as international
20:11 pmichaud I wonder if the announcement should say that the release is code named after Frankfurt.pm, the group that hosted the ...
20:11 leont PerlJam: it's surely the biggest. German Perl Workshop and London Perl Workshop are also fairly big though
20:11 pmichaud instead of "after the city"
20:11 moritz pmichaud: that would be the usual wording, yes
20:11 moritz pmichaud: feel free to change
20:12 moritz EEKS
20:12 moritz make: nqp: Command not found
20:12 moritz now I've got that too :(
20:13 Circlepuller_ joined #perl6
20:13 moritz seems to be in the new step that jnthn added today
20:14 dalek rakudo/nom: 09c46a6 | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2012.08:
20:14 dalek rakudo/nom: More announcement updates;  Frankfurt am Mein -> Frankfurt.pm .
20:14 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/09c46a6bb4
20:14 sirrobert moritz:    [&&] (True, True, False, True)
20:14 sirrobert shows if just one is false
20:14 pmichaud not all of the people attending yapceu are (or consider themselves) Perl hackers
20:14 sirrobert well, 1+
20:15 moritz dammit, I have to update the nqp release and tag
20:15 pmichaud say so one (3, 4, 0, 1).>>not
20:15 pmichaud r: say so one (3, 4, 0, 1).>>not
20:15 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/OkSD4MM5ms:1␤»
20:15 pmichaud r: say so one (3, 4, 0, 1)>>.not
20:15 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:15 pmichaud r: say so one (3, 4, 0, 0)>>.not
20:15 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:16 pmichaud r: say so one (3, 4, 1, 1)>>.not
20:16 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:16 pmichaud we have a winner :-)
20:16 sirrobert ahh, cooool
20:16 moritz that's cheating!
20:16 sirrobert what is >> ?
20:16 moritz postfix hyper
20:16 moritz call the method on each element
20:16 sirrobert ohhhhh super cool
20:17 pmichaud r: say so one !<<(3, 4, 1, 1)
20:17 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«False␤»
20:17 sirrobert ohh >>===<< is doing that on the infix ===
20:17 pmichaud r: say so one !<<(3, 4, 0, 1)
20:17 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«True␤»
20:17 sirrobert infix hyper
20:17 pmichaud Is that "less cheating"?
20:17 sirrobert (cheatery)
20:17 moritz nah, it still modifies the list before making a junction
20:17 sirrobert =)
20:18 pmichaud why is that cheating?  ;-)
20:18 moritz pmichaud: the right answer is "CHEATING IS TECHNIQUE!" :-)
20:18 pmichaud I think it's "cheating" only because I posted it first :-P
20:18 ptl joined #perl6
20:18 ptl joined #perl6
20:19 * pmichaud continues reviewing announcement
20:20 moritz nqp tag 2012.08 deleted
20:20 dalek rakudo/nom: 0ab48ba | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2012.08:
20:20 dalek rakudo/nom: Another update to the yapceu/release name section.
20:20 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0ab48ba072
20:21 moritz the problem is that $(NQP_EXE) doesn't have the leading ./ on linux
20:21 moritz that's no problem on windows where jnthn++ tested it, because . is in %PATH%
20:21 moritz but on linux it invokes whatever nqp binary is in path, if any
20:21 pmichaud moritz: is this in nqp or rakudo?
20:22 moritz pmichaud: nqp
20:22 pmichaud checking.
20:22 moritz the fix I'm currently trying is to build the p5regex thingy with stage0 rather than nqp
20:22 moritz because I can copy&paste the commands inside Makefile.in
20:22 moritz instead of doing something OS-specific, which will surely break on other OSses
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20:25 pmichaud seems to me that p5regex ought to build the same as p6regex
20:25 moritz pmichaud: it doesn't need all the bootstrappy bits
20:25 pmichaud building with stage0 is almost certainly wrong, though.
20:25 dalek nqp: c7bed44 | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
20:25 dalek nqp: unbreak the build on non-windows
20:25 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c7bed44588
20:25 moritz pmichaud: uhm, why?
20:26 pmichaud it'll have the wrong serialization context
20:26 moritz oh crap
20:26 moritz so, it needs to build with stage 1?
20:26 pmichaud should be built with stage2
20:26 pmichaud looking
20:26 pmichaud it should be built with the nqp that is being installed, same as almost anything else
20:27 moritz pmichaud: then I'll leave it to you to fix the Makefile.in
20:28 pmichaud I *did* warn jnthn++ about committing any changes that would break the build for today's Star release.  :-|
20:28 moritz s/Star/Rakudo/
20:28 pmichaud yes, *Rakudo release
20:28 moritz but still
20:28 pmichaud jnthn--  # no karma for you!
20:29 * pmichaud looks at Makefile
20:29 tadzik oh, so that's why it didn't work for me :)
20:29 moritz tadzik: and I know why it didn't break for me
20:29 moritz tadzik: because I ran 'make test', and not 'make
20:29 moritz '
20:29 moritz tadzik: and 'make test' doesn't build the P5regex stuff
20:29 tadzik huh, odd
20:30 tadzik aa, there we go
20:30 Circlepuller joined #perl6
20:30 pmichaud did we need p5regex tests
20:30 pmichaud s/did//
20:30 moritz so the simplest "fix" is not to build the p5regex thing at all
20:30 moritz since we don't use it in current rakudo
20:30 moritz pmichaud: we have them, they just aren't run as part of 'make test' yet
20:30 pmichaud I'm fine with not building p5regex at all for the release.
20:31 pmichaud you're correct that we aren't using it yet.
20:32 dalek nqp: c9db812 | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
20:32 dalek nqp: Revert "unbreak the build on non-windows"
20:32 dalek nqp:
20:32 dalek nqp: This reverts commit c7bed445880938ea914ce0b4e964e3c66261a1f9.
20:32 dalek nqp: It was wrong because building p5regex with stage0
20:32 dalek nqp: involves the wrong serialization context.
20:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c9db8120da
20:32 dalek nqp: fff3eb8 | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
20:32 dalek nqp: stop building the p5 regex bits
20:32 dalek nqp:
20:32 dalek nqp: rakudo does not use them yet, and that step breaks the build on non-windows
20:32 dalek nqp: we will figure out a proper fix after the rakudo release.
20:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fff3eb81c0
20:33 pmichaud moritz++
20:33 * moritz waits for the NQP build to finish
20:34 ptl joined #perl6
20:34 ptl joined #perl6
20:36 sirrobert joined #perl6
20:36 * masak is reminded of how much he enjoys running non-windows
20:36 tadzik :>
20:37 tadzik *cough*panda*cough*
20:37 moritz nqp 2012.08 re-uploaded and re-tagged
20:38 moritz http://moritz.faui2k3.org/​tmp/rakudo-2012.08.tar.gz  # that'll be the release unless we discover more problems with it
20:39 moritz building it now
20:39 moritz on the fastest of my machines
20:39 moritz 'cause, you know, I want to go to bed soon :-)
20:39 bruges joined #perl6
20:44 Woodi joined #perl6
20:47 pmichaud yeah, bed seems like a good idea to me also.
20:49 ptl joined #perl6
20:49 ptl joined #perl6
20:53 masak aye.
21:04 ptl joined #perl6
21:04 ptl joined #perl6
21:06 sirrobert is there a table of special vars like "name of the current file" ?
21:07 tadzik http://doc.perl6.org/language/variables may suit you
21:07 PerlJam sirrobert: there's also S28
21:07 sirrobert thanks, both
21:12 Circlepuller joined #perl6
21:14 moritz I think I blatantly copied S28 for the doc.perl6.org page :-)
21:16 masak blatancy++
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: 9429d1c | moritz++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: update release guide with current release
21:18 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9429d1c7b1
21:18 moritz release cut, feel free to break NQP and nom again :-)
21:18 masak moritz++
21:18 tadzik moritz++ # release saver
21:19 moritz tadzik++ # release starter
21:19 tadzik :)
21:20 ptl joined #perl6
21:20 ptl joined #perl6
21:22 masak tadzik++ moritz++ # release
21:25 moritz did anybody receive the announcement on perl6-compiler?
21:25 moritz my MUA briefly showed me an unread email, and then it vanished
21:25 tadzik moritz: I did
21:25 moritz \o/
21:25 tadzik guess it's time for an obligatory memeface
21:26 moritz tarball uploaded, tags pushed, mail sent, wiki page updated. Time for me to sleep
21:26 tadzik http://ragefac.es/40 :)
21:27 moritz not quite :-)
21:28 moritz ah, mail recieved too
21:28 moritz really sleep&
21:29 masak 'night, moritz. dream of faces entirely without rage.
21:30 PerlJam even better would be happy, smiling faces
21:31 tadzik fun fact: rakudo built faster for me on windows than it does on linux
21:31 tadzik 140 vs 150 seconds on parse stage
21:33 tadzik masak: oh noes
21:33 Woodi joined #perl6
21:33 tadzik we forgot to do a Little Animal Farm Lightning Talk :(
21:35 ptl joined #perl6
21:35 ptl joined #perl6
21:42 masak tadzik: I didn't so much forget it as deprioritize it.
21:42 masak tadzik: maybe people will forgive us for doing it next YAPC::Europe ;)
21:42 masak (and then we have plenty of time to develop actual strategies, too)
21:46 cosimo snarkyboojum: ping, did you see moritz's pull request on MIME::Base64?
21:46 phenny cosimo: 22 Aug 15:19Z <[Coke]> tell cosimo that I'm blocking on Issue #15 for LWP::Simple.
21:47 cosimo [Coke]: I'm just looking at it now
21:48 cosimo ronaldxs is not in here?
21:49 cosimo guys, how do I regenerate a Makefile to build a p6 module nowadays? :-)
21:49 cosimo (sorry for the lame question, but it changes so many times...)
21:49 timotimo i think "ufo"?
21:49 cosimo still ufo then?
21:49 cosimo good
21:49 timotimo or was that absorbed into panda?
21:50 cosimo what about neutro?
21:50 cosimo I believe neutro came after panda
21:50 cosimo you see? :)
21:50 ptl joined #perl6
21:50 ptl joined #perl6
21:51 masak neutro came after proto but before panda.
21:51 masak 'ufo' is for developers to generate Makefiles. 'panda' is for module users to generate Makefiles.
21:52 Tene joined #perl6
21:52 Tene joined #perl6
21:52 cosimo why are there two different Makefiles?
21:54 masak you mean, why is there one on the developer's computer and one on the module user's computer?
21:57 cosimo masak: why two different tools
21:58 masak I dunno. when I wrote 'ufo', 'panda' didn't exist. I needed something to auto-generate Makefiles for my projects. they were never meant to be committed to a git repo or installed or anything.
21:58 masak I just wanted to solve the problem of module build order, nothing more.
21:58 * [Coke] wonders how he got his name on this month's release.
21:59 [Coke] ah, testythings.
21:59 tadzik aw. Net::IRC::Bot on MuEvent seems to be too slow to empty the socket buffer on time
22:00 tadzik or that's my explanation at least :)
22:00 [Coke] tadzik++ for hacking on that!
22:00 tadzik ohhhh, works
22:00 cosimo [Coke]: not sure what I can do to unblock you, but this branch https://github.com/cosimo/perl6-​lwp-simple/tree/ronaldxs-rewrite looks like the next master
22:01 cosimo seriously? already midnight? :-|
22:02 tadzik aw, I can't poll() on stdin :(
22:05 tadzik huh, that's funny
22:05 tadzik r: my $a = $*IN but IO::Socket; $a.poll(1, 0.01)
22:05 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&Socket'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:9761␤  in <anon> at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2304␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:2302␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:843␤  in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:…
22:05 tadzik damnit, safe mode
22:05 cosimo anyone successfully used sqlite with rakudo?
22:05 tadzik yes
22:05 tadzik I wrote a blog-ish engine using it
22:06 cosimo ok, pointers?
22:06 tadzik cosimo: https://github.com/tadzik/zbl​og/blob/master/%C5%BAblog.pl
22:06 ptl joined #perl6
22:06 ptl joined #perl6
22:07 cosimo tadzik: cool, thanks
22:07 cosimo now I need to only port ORlite to Perl 6 :)
22:07 tadzik \o/
22:07 cosimo no, actually Net::OpenSSH too
22:08 tadzik ah, here we go tricky
22:08 cosimo ORlite is quite magic too, but yeah, with OpenSSH all bets are off :)
22:09 colomon How hard can Net::OpenSSH be to port?
22:09 tadzik I wanted to write Net::Twitter-ish thing some time ago
22:09 tadzik turned out that I have to also write Net::Oauth, and then I could't write Crypto::SHA1 :P
22:09 tadzik maybe should've tried pure-perl
22:09 tadzik this way I could maybe learn how SHA1 works
22:10 colomon tadzik++
22:17 masak 'night, #perl6
22:18 tadzik good knight masak
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22:24 tadzik damn you, $*IN
22:24 tadzik r: $*IN.WHAT.say
22:24 p6eval rakudo befe7c: OUTPUT«IO()␤»
22:25 tadzik and what does .poll() say? Method 'poll' not found for invocant of class 'FileHandle'
22:25 tadzik http://ragefac.es/403
22:25 tadzik isn't FIleHandle even a Parrot object? :F
22:26 tadzik ok, it's just me breaking things :)
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22:34 jeffreykegler How would I contribute suggested changes to S05?  Github pull requests?
22:34 jeffreykegler I am talking about clarifying passages, etc.  Nothing major.
22:35 tadzik pull requests are fine, I think
22:40 jeffreykegler tadzik: which repository?
22:40 tadzik jeffreykegler: perl6/specs
22:40 jeffreykegler tadzik: Thanks!!!
22:42 * jnthn got home safely from YAPC :)
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22:47 tadzik hehe, portscanning causes .recv to throw an exception :)
22:47 tadzik That probably kills HTTP::Easy and thus Bailador as well...
22:48 tadzik yes :)
22:50 leont poll is not all that portable (in particular not to Windows). Anything really scalable is even less portable :-|
22:51 ptl joined #perl6
22:52 tadzik that doesn't matter, our poll() sucks horribly anyway :)
22:52 tadzik Parrot only gives as .poll() on one socket at a time
22:52 tadzik which forces MuEvent to be... suboptimal
22:53 fridim_ joined #perl6
22:54 leont Ouch
22:54 tadzik yes
22:55 tadzik https://github.com/tadzik/MuEven​t/blob/master/lib/MuEvent.pm#L65 :)
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23:01 tadzik oh my gosh. Net::IRC::Bot.new returns an Array :F
23:04 tadzik or not. I'm being slowthinking again
23:04 * tadzik spams the channel with his BS, apparently
23:05 diakopter botspeak?
23:05 tadzik exactly
23:08 tadzikbot joined #perl6
23:08 tadzikbot hello, I'm speaking through tadzik's keyboard
23:08 tadzik :ping
23:08 tadzikbot tadzik: pong
23:09 tadzikbot see? I don't block on either .recv() on freenode and neither on tadzik's keyboard import
23:09 tadzikbot tell me I'm a smart bot
23:09 leont You can use nativecall to get around the poll issue, I guess. Parrot's handing of anything related to events just keeps being disappointing, given that event handling was one of the things it was supposed to be good at
23:09 jnthn tadzikbot: You'd be smarter if you could spell input correctly :P
23:10 tadzikbot hey, it's late, even if that's not that hot already
23:10 diakopter :ping
23:10 tadzikbot diakopter: pong
23:10 diakopter :ping
23:10 tadzikbot diakopter: pong
23:10 diakopter :ping
23:10 tadzikbot diakopter: pong
23:10 tadzik so, it has come to this. Net::IRC::Bot on MuEvent :)
23:11 diakopter :pingg
23:11 diakopter :ping
23:11 diakopter : ping
23:12 diakopter :pin g
23:12 tadzikbot diakopter: haha, keep trying to trick me :)
23:12 diakopter :
23:12 diakopter ping
23:12 tadzikbot part of my AI includes a line: "return unless $ev.what.chomp eq ':ping';"
23:13 tadzik :exit
23:13 tadzik ok, I
23:13 ptl joined #perl6
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23:13 tadzik 'll commit this pile of code and get some sleep now :)
23:20 tadzik stuff pushed to https://github.com/tadzik/Net--IRC for anyone's amusement
23:20 diakopter bwahaha.
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