Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-08-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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03:09 DrEeevil http://trac.parrot.org/lan​guages/browser/pheme/trunk <-- looks like a few things broken on the parrot trac, who to bug for it?
03:11 moritz DrEeevil: trac is being phased out, all the interesting things have been migrated to github
03:11 DrEeevil ah, makes sense
03:11 DrEeevil I guess one should update the wiki then
03:12 moritz I guess one should, yes
03:12 DrEeevil btw, are there any parrot languages outside of rakudo that are maintained and in any way useful?
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03:13 moritz winxed is
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03:21 DrEeevil hrm, if only the winxed website worked ...
03:23 benabik There is https://github.com/NotFound/winxed
03:24 DrEeevil thanks benabik
03:24 benabik Although if you have a modern-ish Parrot, it is included.
03:25 benabik And whiteknight has some of the best documentation for it: http://whiteknight.github.co​m/Rosella/winxed/index.html
03:25 benabik (Although I tend to just poke around the source)
03:26 DrEeevil ah indeed
03:27 moritz google and ddg don't link to winxed.org, which probably means it's been down for a while :(
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03:34 DrEeevil oh well. I thought I could have fun packaging some parrot runtime languages, but apparently there's nothing serious there
03:34 * DrEeevil needs another weekend project ;)
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05:18 masak morning, #perl6
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05:45 moritz good morning, masak
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05:48 moritz good morning, *
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05:58 * masak commutes
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06:07 cosimo morning
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06:48 tadzik good morning
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07:29 * AccessDenied hmm
07:29 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
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07:31 kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people
07:35 moritz good am, pm
07:35 moritz good morning kresike, AccessDenied, tadzik, cosimo, *
07:35 kresike hello moritz o/
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07:37 pmichaud moritz++ tadzik++ # Rakudo 2012.08 release
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07:44 pmichaud did I hear somewhere that there was going to be another "This week in Perl 6" series, or am I hallucinating again?
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07:45 moritz dunno. The previous one was on reddit, by raiph++
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07:59 DrEeevil gentoo packages already up to date :)
07:59 DrEeevil gotta love upstreams that release stuff that actually works
08:00 moritz DrEeevil: you mean, with rakudo 2012.08?
08:00 DrEeevil yup
08:00 DrEeevil there were some test failures around parrot 4.2 / 4.3, but since then it's been boring and just working nicely
08:01 moritz boring is good :-)
08:12 DrEeevil yes, I wish more upstreams understood that
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08:15 moritz it seems that rakudo's Makefile uses ./$(PERL6_EXE) for precompiling modules
08:15 moritz and since jnthn++ isn't constantly shouting at us, it must work on windows too
08:15 moritz so that's how I can fix the NQP build
08:15 moritz good to know :-)
08:15 pmichaud I'm fine with using ./$(NQP_EXE) for the NQP build
08:16 pmichaud there are other places in the nqp build that use ./$(NQP_EXE) as well.
08:16 moritz I didn't find those places when skimming it yesterday
08:16 moritz and I though we just always used the PBCs
08:16 pmichaud well, might be only one other place.  I did see one.
08:16 pmichaud ..."used the PBCs"?
08:17 moritz parrot $(STAGE1PBC) whatever
08:17 pmichaud for the bootstrapping build, yes, we tend to use the PBCs.
08:17 pmichaud but at the end we should get a EXE, and then use that to generate the other library components
08:18 pmichaud ...keeping in mind that I've never fully reviewed the build process jnthn++ put into place for nqp :)
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08:19 moritz well, it has one very important property: it works :-)
08:19 moritz testing a local patch now that re-enables building the p5regex stuff
08:19 pmichaud Indeed, which is why I haven't really worried about it too much.
08:26 dalek nqp: 8fac254 | moritz++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
08:26 dalek nqp: [build] fix building of p5regex components on non-windows. Re-include it in the default target
08:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8fac254a08
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08:48 jnthn morning
08:48 brrt \o jnthn
08:48 moritz mrnng, jnthn
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08:49 jnthn pmichaud: The build process (with the 3 stages) is largely yours. :)
08:49 pmichaud well, it doesn't look much like mine :)
08:49 jnthn It's had quite a lot added to it :)
08:50 jnthn But it still has a PIR stage0, which is used to build stage1, which is used to build stage2.
08:50 pmichaud and it seems to unrolled/refactored in a few places that I think I would've factored differently.
08:50 pmichaud still, as moritz++ says, it does have the undeniable feature of *working*, and that's what we care about :)
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08:51 pmichaud clearly I don't find the current code to be an issue, otherwise I'd have refactored it already :)
08:51 jnthn I'm sure it could be better in places; it's when people think they can make it faster that I get scared, since that'd break the bootstrappy-ness :)
08:52 moritz well
08:52 moritz there are steps that could be broken up into substeps
08:52 jnthn (As in, you need to build all the stages in order, and within each stage there are orderings)
08:52 moritz which wouldn't break anything if dependencies were added properly
08:52 pmichaud I've found that breaking into substeps makes the Makefile much harder to understand, not easier.
08:53 pmichaud A lot of people do suggest breaking the steps up, but that just increases the number of rules and dependencies without improving readability or performance.
08:53 jnthn Also, the substeps tend to be concatenate source, compile to PIR, assemble PIR to bytecode
08:53 jnthn All of which are ordered
08:53 pmichaud correct
08:53 pmichaud and none of which are worth preserving as an intermediate step
08:54 jnthn right
08:54 jnthn Anyway, I'd rather we keep at as it is for now.
08:54 jnthn For one because I presently understand very well how it works. :)
08:54 pmichaud I don't think there's any real push for a refactor.  But we do need to fix it so that the p5regex part doesn't break the rakudo build.  :-P
08:54 jnthn Once I'm done with moving NQP over to QAST, my need to understand it so well decreases, so we can refactor. ;-)
08:54 moritz pmichaud: already done
08:54 jnthn It...breaks the Rakudo build?
08:55 pmichaud moritz++
08:55 jnthn Worked for me :S
08:55 pmichaud jnthn: yes, because you're on a Windows platform.
08:55 moritz jnthn: it used $(NQP_EXE) instead of ./$(NQP_EXE)
08:55 jnthn oh...
08:55 moritz jnthn: which broke nqp build on linux
08:55 jnthn Yeah, I can see that. D'oh.
08:55 moritz jnthn: so I've disabled the step for the release
08:55 moritz jnthn: because yesterday I didn't have the wits to fix it
08:55 jnthn At least it wasn't a spaces/tabs issue :)
08:55 pmichaud lol
08:55 moritz after a night's sleep, the fix was obvious
08:56 jnthn :)
08:56 moritz just hope it didn't break it on windows (but it really shouldn't :-)
08:56 jnthn It won't.
08:56 jnthn .\nqp.exe is fine on Windows.
08:56 moritz it's ./nqp.exe
08:56 moritz but we also use ./perl6.exe in rakudo's Makefile.in
08:57 jnthn Yes, but the slashes are re-written.
08:57 moritz oh, ok
08:57 arnsholt Modern Windowses understand both / and \ as directory separators, no?
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08:57 jnthn arnsholt: When it feels like it, yes, When it doesn't feel like it, no. :)
08:57 moritz arnsholt: perl on windows does
08:57 arnsholt *sigh* Always something, isn't there
08:57 arnsholt But rewriting works as well =)
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08:58 jnthn I suspect we can merge the p5rx branch in Rakudo now the release is done.
08:58 moritz yes. And bump NQP_REVISION to one after the release.
08:58 arnsholt Make is pretty insane, speaking of. I've been writing a fair amount of it lately for my projects
08:59 jnthn Yeah. I've various errands and $dayjob bits to do in my one day at home this week, but will set off a build/spectest run of it now.
08:59 moritz arnsholt: news at 11
08:59 moritz :-)
09:02 pmichaud btw, for those who suffered through the heat in Frankfurt this week, today is overcast and the temperature is 18C.  Go figure.
09:02 jnthn Grr
09:03 huf effects of global swarming? :)
09:04 pmichaud I'm afk for a bit
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09:05 arnsholt moritz: Indeed. Crazy powerful too, though, once you wrap your head around it
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: 1431c3e | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: Wire the :P5 adverb up to use P5Regex. Doesnm't support much yet, but makes it accessible from Rakudo. A simple check of it worked.
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1431c3e7a0
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: ca7637a | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/p5rx' into nom
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ca7637a954
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: c2c23a3 | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump to an NQP revision with P5Regex.
09:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c2c23a3a70
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10:52 tadzik Poland! \o/
10:52 jnthn :)
10:53 * jnthn is temporarily in Sweden :)
10:53 jnthn Most immediately felt benefit: internets everywhere, thanks to 3G :)
10:54 tadzik ohyes
10:54 tadzik and cheap
10:54 tadzik not like 5€./h on FRA
10:54 jnthn heh, yeah
10:55 kresike you guys seem to be showing a slight .net addiction :)
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11:02 * JimmyZ never goes to other country ;)
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11:08 * pmichaud finally has a chance to unpack in Frankfu.... hey, wait a minute.
11:08 pmichaud :-(
11:13 sjn Parcel.unpack?
11:15 pmichaud something like that, yes.
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11:47 dalek rakudo/nom: f830ef4 | moritz++ | src/ (2 files):
11:47 dalek rakudo/nom: include the role name in the error for X::Syntax::Augment::Role
11:47 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f830ef4b89
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11:51 dalek doc: b06e890 | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/Augment/ (2 files):
11:51 dalek doc: document two error classes related to "augment"
11:51 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b06e89026c
11:52 FROGGS moritz: is the X:: namespace for exceptions?
11:52 moritz FROGGS: yes
11:52 FROGGS cool, thanks
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11:54 dalek specs: 771d505 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
11:54 dalek specs: [S32::Exception] improve error message for X::Syntax::Augment::Role
11:54 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/771d5050f6
11:55 mhasch o/ #perl6
11:55 moritz \o mhasch
11:55 mhasch I was just wondering...
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11:56 mst got you, you horrible little gremlin
11:56 mhasch If I translated my module Math::Polynomial from perl5 to perl6, what should I call it?
11:56 mst the postgres instance on the dev box had eaten all the swap
11:56 mst pmichaud: mystery solved, I hope, confirmation to follow
11:57 moritz mhasch: maybe Math::Polynomial?
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11:57 moritz mhasch: or are you unhappy with the name?
11:58 mhasch I know there is this mechanism for modules of different authors sharing a name, but it does not strike me as particularly elegant.
11:58 moritz different authors?
11:58 moritz you said it was your own module
11:59 moritz and it is *always* clear if a perl 5 or a Perl 6 module is being loaded
12:00 mhasch Well, I maintain M::P on CPAN, but colomon has a M::P on modules.perl6.org.
12:00 moritz ah, now we're getting somewhere
12:00 moritz that was the part I was missing
12:01 moritz maybe just call it Polynomial?
12:01 colomon I'd be happy to remove mine from the ecosystem as soon as there's an improved version to replace it with.
12:02 mhasch Or we might take it as an opportunity to work together on an even better one :-)
12:02 colomon I'm game.
12:04 colomon mhasch: what's your github id?
12:04 mhasch colomon: You got a deal, then.  I'll probably fork yours on github as soon as i find a tuit round enough.
12:04 colomon send me your id and I'll just make you a contributor to the current repo
12:05 * colomon is also incredibly short on tuits today -- need to be ready to teach two traditional music workshops by noon, have the house clean enough for company by 4, and get some $work done as well.
12:05 mhasch I am mhasch on github
12:08 dalek rakudo/nom: 7e1a6b8 | moritz++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
12:08 dalek rakudo/nom: make X::Temporal a role
12:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7e1a6b85b5
12:08 dalek specs: 331a251 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
12:08 dalek specs: [S32::Exception] make X::Temporal a role
12:08 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/331a251bbe
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12:15 pmichaud hmmm, packing for .no has been a lot easier than packing for .de.  I guess that's because I have a net loss of 5 t-shirts :)
12:15 pmichaud mst: (build problems)  win, glad you found the solution
12:15 moritz wow. I usually have a net gain of 2..5 t-shirts per conference :-)
12:16 pmichaud yes, but I brought eight yapc-perl6 shirts and gave away seven :)
12:16 jnthn (those t-shirts)++
12:16 frettled pics? :)
12:17 jnthn Mine is currently in the wash so I can wear it at the hackathon in .no :)
12:17 mhasch pmichaud: did you post your design somewhere for us to print
12:17 pmichaud I forgot to take pics
12:17 pmichaud I'm going to post the design shortly
12:17 jnthn I hope that it will be acceptable hackathon wear. :P
12:17 moritz jnthn: :-)
12:17 pmichaud mhasch: did you want with or without yapc::europe text?  I've been thinking of just posting the design w/o the text
12:18 pmichaud jnthn: I'm sure it will be acceptable hackathon wear.  I should've given you my shirt to wash so I could wear one also :)
12:18 mst pmichaud: also, the ./perl6 --setting=NULL --optimize=3 --target=pir --stagestats stage
12:18 mhasch With the yapc text will be just fine, to go with my official yapc one.
12:18 mst pmichaud: took about 1.6Gb according to top M
12:18 pmichaud mst: that's about right
12:18 mst pmichaud: the rest seemed pretty gentle
12:18 moritz huh, I thought it was more like 1.2 or 1.3G these days
12:18 mst pmichaud: I mention this as a datapoint towards the "make compilation work inside 1Gb" goal you mentioned having
12:18 pmichaud moritz: he's still using the 2012.07 star release, I think
12:19 moritz oh.
12:19 mst I am
12:19 mst that's what jnthn told me to use
12:19 pmichaud the 2012.08 release (coming in the next 4 days) should use around 1.2Gb or less
12:19 mst sweet
12:19 moritz mst: it's allright. Somhow my brain has managed to label that as "distant past" :-)
12:20 pmichaud and when I make my cursor changes, we should be much closer to 1.0Gb
12:20 frettled jnthn: I should think it is acceptable.  Regrettably, I won't see you there, but I'm sure sjn++ will ensure pics are taken.
12:20 jnthn I've probably got some other things that I can do to pull us below that mark in the next one also.
12:20 pmichaud frettled: I have the pics of shirts before they were given away.
12:20 frettled pmichaud: oooh!
12:20 pmichaud and I'm sure there are lots of pics of p6 shirts somewhere
12:21 dalek Perlito: 3f74ed5 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (3 files):
12:21 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - fix a problem parsing empty statements in modules ("use" bug)
12:21 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/3f74ed5172
12:22 mhasch Was the * variant of the shirt also your making, pmichaud?
12:23 pmichaud mhasch: yes.  I felt TimToady++ deserved a special shirt.
12:26 pmichaud shirt photo #1: http://pmichaud.com/sandbox/img_4213.jpg
12:27 frettled Butterfly onion beer/milkshake, I'm not sure I can solve the riddle.
12:27 pmichaud it helps to see the original yapceu shirts
12:27 pmichaud here are the original shirts that the conference provided:  http://blogs.perl.org/users/yapceurope_2​012/2012/08/the-conference-t-shirts.html
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12:29 pmichaud note how all of the conference-provided shirts say "Perl 5" on them.  So these shirts were intended to be a counter to that :)
12:29 mhasch jnthn: somehow the $howmany stitches person failed to show up on the conference, so we will never know what garments she would have you adorned with.
12:31 dalek rakudo/nom: 3188aee | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
12:31 dalek rakudo/nom: improve X::Temporal::Truncation: report invocant, not just the class
12:31 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3188aee381
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12:32 Carolyn hola
12:32 moritz hello Carolyn
12:33 frettled pmichaud: hum, cathedral onion gin&tonic?
12:33 Carolyn hola
12:33 frettled pmichaud: very nice tees, those P6 ones.
12:33 frettled and they got better with context :D
12:33 frettled pmichaud: does TimToady's spell P* or something like that?
12:33 mhasch Frankfurt town hall, onion, empty ebbelwoi glass
12:33 Carolyn +_-
12:34 frettled mhasch: aha!
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12:34 mhasch vs. amelia rendered in low resolution, onion, filled glass
12:35 pmichaud actually, "filled glass" is "beer mug", since Perl 6 wouldn't exist without beer.
12:36 pmichaud many Perl 6 contributors simply convert beer into code
12:36 mhasch Indeed.
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12:36 jnthn .oO( good job beer is a renewable resource )
12:37 dalek doc: 4839ea0 | moritz++ | lib/X/Temporal (2 files):
12:37 dalek doc: start to document Temporal errors
12:37 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4839ea091b
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12:38 pmichaud yeah, the frankfurt town hall outline reminded me of a low-resolution mountainscape.
12:38 pmichaud so I did a low-resolution camelia.  I'm very happy with how that turned out :)
12:40 mhasch It was brilliant :-)
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12:42 mhasch To me the low-res pic conveyed the message that our pet project is not quite finished yet, but one can see a good draft version.
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12:46 dalek roast: bff406d | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
12:46 dalek roast: update some exception tests
12:46 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/bff406d570
12:46 moritz hey, I have another idea: composable t-shirt design
12:46 moritz those three boxes are perfect for providing a number of logos
12:47 pmichaud indeed, they are :)
12:47 moritz (camelia, onion, moose, beer, *, ...)
12:47 moritz now offer an online shop where you can click together which three you want in which order
12:47 pmichaud I'll host a set of already-created icons, at least.
12:47 pmichaud we can then make more :)
12:48 frettled \o/ pmichaud++
12:48 mhasch We could render a big number with individual pixels as icon boxes
12:48 frettled SVG FTW
12:49 pmichaud I'm afk for a bit
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13:00 __sri how come there are no book quotes and funny TimToady comments in the rakudo source?
13:00 * __sri is disappointed :(
13:01 mhasch __sri: patches welcome
13:01 fgomez joined #perl6
13:01 moritz I find those in the mojo sources a bit distracting
13:01 __sri :o
13:07 * moritz commutes &
13:08 gongyiliao joined #perl6
13:08 kresike bye
13:11 [Coke] __sri: read pugs source instead.
13:12 [Coke] lots of tolkein in there.
13:16 __sri \o/
13:18 skids joined #perl6
13:20 __sri i kinda like reading the rakudo source, but it's so sterile
13:22 __sri method names like slurp and spurt feel almost out of place
13:22 FROGGS joined #perl6
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13:23 [Coke] new version of http://search.cpan.org/~dcon​way/Perl6-Perldoc-0.000008/ released recently.
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13:35 FROGGS arnsholt: the changes you currently make for NativeCall (sized ints for example), is it somewhere accessable on github?
13:36 FROGGS I'ld like to fiddle around a bit, maybe we can collaborate
13:38 arnsholt Lemme check
13:39 arnsholt The branch is here: https://github.com/perl6/n​qp/tree/dyncall-sized-num
13:39 FROGGS ahh, was looking in the zavolaj project
13:39 FROGGS thanks
13:41 gongyiliao joined #perl6
13:47 arnsholt Yeah, that's a bit confusing at first
13:47 arnsholt Most of the code is actually in NQP
13:47 arnsholt Zavolaj is just exposing the functionality in a better way
13:50 dalek perl6-roast-data: f9d8271 | coke++ | / (3 files):
13:50 dalek perl6-roast-data: today
13:50 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/f9d82715f1
13:51 [Coke] looks like those rakudo issues are not transitory.
13:52 * moritz clones the repo
13:52 [Coke] there were 23002 passes a few days ago, but 22578 today.
13:53 [Coke] no real new failures to account for 400+ tests... were some files commented out of t/spectest.data, maybe? wonder if I'm getting a build issue...
13:54 moritz [Coke]: S32-exceptions/misc.rakudo seems to have aborted early
13:54 moritz [Coke]: I might have forgotten to push some changes to it
13:54 jnthn misc.t has over 400 tests in it
13:54 jnthn If it aborts really early, it alone can account for the loss
13:55 moritz S32-exceptions/misc.rakudo passed 14 unplanned test(s)
13:55 [Coke] it says "passed 14 unplanned tests" in the summary, though.
13:55 [Coke] odd.
13:55 moritz that means it ran 14 tests, and aborted then
13:55 moritz because it doesn't declare a plan upfront
13:55 [Coke] that's an unhelpful phrasing.
13:56 moritz it is.
13:56 [Coke] double checked my rakudo test checkout, no changes in there blocking a pull --rebase, so that's ok on my end, I think.
13:57 moritz [Coke]: when is the rakudo test run? (which time of day)
14:00 [Coke] noon EST
14:00 [Coke] well, pugs at noon, then niecza, then rakudo.
14:02 moritz if it's really the exceptions tests, I am confident that it comes out as a flat line again as soon as I stop hacking up the error messages again
14:02 moritz (which means, when I'm done documenting them :-)
14:03 moritz as long as I'm doing it, sometimes rakudo and the tests go out of sync
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14:22 [Coke] ok. Just wanted to make sure I raised the flag, sounds like you have it under control.
14:37 raiph joined #perl6
14:37 spider-mario p6: if 0 but role {method Bool {.defined}} -> $x {say $x}
14:37 p6eval rakudo 3188ae, niecza v19-37-g0567c61:  ( no output )
14:37 spider-mario my Rakudo says Nil
14:37 spider-mario oh, I getit.
14:37 spider-mario sorry.
14:38 spider-mario that’s because
14:38 spider-mario > if False {say 'Hello'}
14:38 spider-mario Nil
14:38 moritz ==> Bootstrapping Panda
14:38 moritz Unable to parse object, couldn't find final '}'
14:39 PerlJam spider-mario: are you trying to start some obfuscated perl 6?
14:40 moritz anybody else has problems bootstrapping panda?
14:40 [Coke] tadzik: did you end up with a mu/net hybrid that works?
14:41 am0c joined #perl6
14:42 moritz that's newest rakudo
14:45 dalek doc: c145248 | moritz++ | lib/X/ControlFlow (2 files):
14:45 dalek doc: X::ControlFlow{,::Return}
14:45 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c14524866d
14:51 sirrobert so, I don't think I can demo this here, but I found a small oddity in eval.  Here are the two code snippets that would demonstrate it
14:52 sirrobert say { a => {a => 1} b => {b => 2}, };
14:52 sirrobert say eval slurp 'file.txt';
14:52 sirrobert if 'file.txt' contains the (badly formed) hash from the first line, the two 'says' do different things
14:52 sirrobert the output is different
14:53 sirrobert so put in file.txt:  { a => {a => 1} b => {b => 2}, }
14:53 moritz r: say { a => {a => 1} b => {b => 2}, };
14:53 p6eval rakudo 3188ae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "a => {a =>"␤»
14:53 moritz sirrobert: I get the same parse error both times
14:53 sirrobert I was creating test fixtures and noticed this because some files that have "expected return values" had a badly formed hash (missing , after the first pair)
14:53 raiph p6rd next
14:54 moritz p6rd: next
14:54 p6rd niecza 2012-08-27, parrot 2012-09-18, rakudo 2012-09-20
14:54 moritz raiph: needs that colon
14:54 sirrobert here, let me put up a gist ...
14:55 raiph moritz: ah. thanks.
14:56 raiph moritz: i guess p6rd reports the compiler release dates, so not R*, right?
14:56 moritz raiph: that's correct, since the R* release dates aren't so fixed
14:58 sirrobert moritz: https://gist.github.com/3451664
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14:59 sirrobert moritz:  refresh the gist for a new comment that may be helpful
15:02 moritz sirrobert: ah, I see the difference. The newline.
15:02 sirrobert yeah.  The thing I noticed first was that the eval output gave me a hash... but with only one element
15:02 sirrobert one sub-hash
15:02 sirrobert which seemed super weird =)
15:02 moritz sirrobert: that's because ; is optional at }\n
15:03 moritz sirrobert: so it's actually a block of two statements
15:03 moritz sirrobert: and in the case of the eval, it's in sink context, and executed immediately
15:03 sirrobert so it creates a kv pair...
15:03 sirrobert then creates another kv pair
15:03 moritz sirrobert: whereas in the case of  say { ... }, it doesn't execute the block
15:03 sirrobert then the outer block does an implicit return
15:03 sirrobert ok
15:04 sirrobert is there anything to be done there, or is it more of a Perl 6 Circus Freak
15:04 sirrobert ?
15:05 moritz well, you could find another pair of bracketing characters in ASCII that we could use for hashs vs. blocks :-)
15:05 sirrobert heh
15:05 sirrobert Let's use ...     {{{{~~{{  }}~~}}}}
15:05 sirrobert heh
15:06 sirrobert I once maintained a project (whug) that had different semantics for :::, ::::, and :::::
15:06 sirrobert (in a data file)
15:06 sirrobert what a nightmare.
15:09 arnsholt Mmmmm. Tasty
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15:12 [Coke] r: say {{{{~~{{  }}~~}}}}
15:12 p6eval rakudo 3188ae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "~~{{  }}~~"␤»
15:15 masak morning, #perl6.
15:15 dalek star: d403141 | moritz++ | / (3 files):
15:15 dalek star: bump some versions
15:15 dalek star:
15:15 dalek star: also reduce memory numbers in README a bit
15:15 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/d4031414bf
15:16 moritz \o masak
15:23 raiph does an R* release always use the current monthly compiler release? e.g. will the compiler in the upcoming R* have the P5 regex adverb wired up to the P5Regex stuff jnthn just did?
15:23 moritz raiph: that one was merged after the release
15:24 moritz raiph: and so far we've always used the latest compiler for a R* release, but it might change in future
15:24 jnthn raiph: No, I deliberately merged it after the release
15:24 jnthn So it'll be in the R* in September.
15:24 raiph ok. makes sense. thanks.
15:24 jnthn It's really not ready for the prime time yet
15:24 jnthn It's a starting point from where I hope by the next September release we can have something fairly complete/compliant.
15:25 [Coke] jnthn: I'm hurt that you'd go after traditionally pugs-only spec tests. ;)
15:29 jnthn [Coke]: That hadn't occurred to me. :)
15:31 japhb moritz, still having panda issues?
15:31 moritz japhb: yes
15:31 japhb What platform?
15:31 moritz japhb: linux
15:31 japhb Latest Rakudo and Panda?
15:32 moritz [Coke]: actually one of the previous Rakudo incarnations (alpha or Bejing, I'm not quite sure which) had fairly many passing p5regex tests
15:32 pmichaud alpha
15:32 pmichaud and yes, lack of p5 regexes is a regression from alpha
15:33 * japhb wonders when Rakudo will achieve being fully a superset of all non-deprecated features
15:33 japhb (of previous incarnations)
15:34 japhb moritz, Are you using latest git Rakudo and Panda?
15:34 moritz japhb: yes
15:34 * japhb is trying to find out what exactly he needs to recreate, since compiling is so slow here ...
15:34 pmichaud japhb: I don't know; and that's a bit less interesting to me than the question of "what features are we missing that people really need"
15:35 dalek doc: 7c7b472 | moritz++ | lib/X/Method/NotFound.pod:
15:35 dalek doc: X::Method::NotFound
15:35 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7c7b472ed4
15:35 japhb pmichaud, My apologies if that came out as a complaint, it wasn't.  It really was just idle curiosity.  :-)
15:35 pmichaud i.e., I'd rather put tuits into things that I know people need now, rather than restoring a feature that we once had but isn't really needed
15:35 japhb sure, sure.
15:35 pmichaud I didn't take it as a complaint, no -- just wanted to clarify my view of priority :)
15:35 japhb heh
15:36 japhb OK, moritz, will compile a fresh Rakudo and see what I can see
15:36 moritz it looks like a parse error from JSON
15:38 japhb Hmm, nothing new to pull for panda, so the projects.json.bootstrap didn't change since the last time I was in there ...
15:38 japhb moritz, are you doing bootstrap.pl or rebootstrap.pl?
15:39 moritz japhb: bootstrap.pl
15:39 japhb Did you get a backtrace?
15:40 moritz I did, just a sec
15:41 moritz https://gist.github.com/3452108
15:42 japhb Well harumph.
15:43 japhb So it's not bootstrap.pl that's failing, it's panda, and relatively early on, too.
15:43 * japhb mentally chews that cud
15:44 pmichaud did macros make it into the 2012.08 release?
15:44 moritz no
15:44 moritz at least not unquotes
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15:45 dalek star: c3ff618 | pmichaud++ | skel/docs/announce/2012.08:
15:45 dalek star: Add a draft announcement for R* 2012.08.
15:45 dalek star: review: https://github.com/rakudo/star/commit/c3ff618225
15:45 alester joined #perl6
15:45 japhb Wait, that can't be right ... panda:83 is the if %*ENV<PANDA_DEFAULT_OPTS> { block
15:46 moritz unless it fetches a different panda from somewhere
15:47 japhb moritz, where would it come from?  I mean, bootstrap.pl doesn't pull anything from anywhere ... in fact, it goes through some effort to be offline-only
15:47 moritz fwiw there's no projects.json in ~/.panda/
15:48 japhb moritz, yeah, last line of bootstrap.pl nukes the temporary one installed there, so that the next (user-executed) run of panda will refetch from the net
15:49 japhb In your panda checkout, what do you get for `git describe --always --dirty`  ?
15:49 moritz 506a8f7
15:50 japhb WTH?
15:50 moritz what's wrong with that?
15:50 japhb And you ran the bootstrap as 'cd working-dir; ./bootstrap.pl' ?
15:51 moritz cd ~/p6/panda; perl6 bootstrap.pl
15:51 japhb Nothing's wrong with that.  The 'WTH?' was that I was figuring that something had to be out of sync in order to get an insane line number in the backtrace.  :-(
15:54 cognominal joined #perl6
15:55 raiph i intend to do some sort of p6 news post on a regular basis. i'd like some feedback on this. (more)
15:57 japhb moritz, The thing that is confusing me is that even though we appear have the same checkout of panda, the only place a method new is called in bin/panda is at line 97.  The line '83' in the backtrace is not even close.
15:57 japhb raiph: My feedback: YES, PLEASE.
15:58 raiph heh. sorry, distracted in RL for a moment. more in a mo
15:58 japhb japhb, And later in the trace, from-json gets called online 62 of Ecosystem.pm, not 59 (the latter line is just a closing brace).
15:59 moritz japhb: I also have ~/.perl6/bin/panda which calls .new on line 73
15:59 japhb So either the backtracer and/or annotations are really off, or ...?
15:59 FROGGS raiph: I will read it
16:00 raiph as a strawmanish thing, i did a reddit post last week. i got several things wrong. it didn't go down well.
16:00 moritz japhb: I have no clue
16:00 japhb moritz, That's still not 83.  Do you have more than just those two 'panda' programs around anywhere?
16:00 raiph (http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/ygplc/per​l6_highlights_week_ending_20120818_dedicated/)
16:00 moritz japhb: I've recently fiddled a bit with exception classes, but those should not touch the backtrace printer
16:01 * pmichaud reads the reddit post
16:01 moritz locate tells me I also have a panda in /opt/rakudo-star-2012.07/bin/panda
16:01 japhb moritz, right, all I saw you commit were changes to the exceptions themselves (and converting one class to a role?)
16:02 japhb moritz, where's the .new in that panda?
16:02 * japhb wonders if perl6 perversely tries finding the script in the path before trying ./<script>
16:03 japhb er, PATH I mean
16:03 pmichaud raiph: what parts "didn't go down well" for you?
16:04 moritz japhb: the .new call is lines 70..75
16:04 FROGGS raiph: I like it, its way more better than just checking the commits for all these repos
16:04 japhb Hmmm, so not even that one matches
16:05 japhb Yay, current rakudo finally compiled; now running a ./rebootstrap.pl
16:05 raiph well, first, compare the voting w/ other p6 posts. 76% liked it. p6 reunification post. 100% liked it.
16:06 japhb Oooooh, blew up for me too, but very different last line. (bin/panda:101) and Ecosystem.pm line (:62)
16:06 japhb Something changed in QRegex that broke the local copy of JSON::Tiny in ext/ in the panda tree?
16:06 raiph saying "dedicated to piers" led several people to think piers had passed away. (i won't use those words again!)
16:06 japhb (That's to the question of why it broke now, when it didn't break a few days ago)
16:07 moritz the only recently-ish regex commit I can find is   Fix double-quoted strings used in regexes; they now interpolate their conten
16:08 moritz (in rakudo)
16:08 japhb As to the question of backtrace lines ... in the two differences, my numbers make sense according to the checked-out files, and yours seem off for some reason.  :-/
16:08 japhb Humm, lemme check JSON::Tiny
16:09 pmichaud raiph: yeah, the "dedicated to piers" part was just a misword; but that's bound to happen from time to time.
16:09 raiph and there were a few other things. i can fix the ones i know about and then iterate. so that's ok. my concerns/questions are...
16:09 moritz japhb: now I get more sensible error messages too
16:09 moritz erm, line numbers
16:09 moritz after deleting /opt/rakudo-star-2012.07/
16:09 odoacre joined #perl6
16:09 japhb That's ... strange.
16:09 moritz which totally isn't in $PATH
16:10 japhb Very, very strange.
16:10 moritz indeed
16:10 * pmichaud awaits raiph's concerns/questions
16:12 Circlepuller joined #perl6
16:12 japhb moritz, Hmmm, " is used bare n a couple places in JSON::Tiny::Grammar, and a couple other places backslashed.  Maybe meaning of unbackslashed quote within character class accidentally changed?
16:12 japhb *bare in a
16:12 raiph i had called it a summary of #perl6, cuz, for the most part, that's what i can know. if i call it "this week in Perl 6" or whatever, well, that feels different
16:13 moritz japhb: the moritz/json repo has some small diffs to the one bundled with panda
16:13 moritz mostly related to whitespace handling
16:13 japhb moritz, resync required?
16:13 raiph i had done it as a reddit post. perhaps i should be posting elsewhere, and posting a link to reddit.
16:13 dalek panda: 8459527 | moritz++ | ext/JSON__Tiny/lib/JSON/Tiny (2 files):
16:13 dalek panda: [ext/JSON] sync from upstream
16:13 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/8459527287
16:13 [Coke] only other perl6 stuff I'm aware of is the mailing lists (dead), the bug trackers (summarized in changelogs), twitter, and planet perl6 blog aggregator
16:13 * japhb pulls
16:14 moritz now I get much further
16:14 moritz maybe it even works
16:14 pmichaud I think "summary of #perl6" is fine.  It's an accurate description, and any other Perl 6 news from outside #perl6 is likely to make it here so it'd get appropriate mention.
16:14 [Coke] raiph: if you post it in a blog, we can add it to planet perl6.
16:14 moritz pmichaud: did any <.ws> changes make it into the rakudo or nqp release?
16:14 FROGGS raiph: no one will blame you if you forget to post about something in your summary
16:14 pmichaud raiph: if you don't have a blog already in mind, I might suggest blogs.perl.org
16:14 raiph i had posted things as "small" as someone adding a slideshow; i think that overly dilutes the likes of jnthn's debugger.
16:14 thou joined #perl6
16:15 [Coke] summaries suck to do, IME. I did them for parrot for a while and it was just overwhelming at the time.
16:15 moritz raiph: maybe group by "importance" rather than by day
16:15 pmichaud moritz: they did not.  I had expected to have the :sigspace stuff in the 2012.08 release... but then the spec changed.
16:15 [Coke] raiph++
16:15 japhb moritz, Oh yeah, working better here too.
16:15 japhb moritz, Why were those changes required?
16:15 moritz raiph: larger scale changes (like the debugger) first, smaller ones later
16:15 moritz japhb: I have no idea
16:16 moritz japhb: I did them in preparation of nqp + rakudo branches that haven't landed yet
16:16 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
16:16 pmichaud going by day is easier for the author, however.  I'd suggest a "major items" section at the top, and then "by day" for everything else.
16:16 moritz well, I'm fine the current mode, just reponding to raiph++'s concerns
16:17 FROGGS raiph: ya, like having topics? compiler, grammar, modules, dunno
16:17 moritz (oh and I'm with ++ staying on IRC, and not using ++ in the summary; that seemed to have put off some folks too)
16:17 pmichaud I agree there as well.
16:18 pmichaud raiph:  any other concerns?  or can I start with a summary of my reactions?  ;-)
16:20 raiph part of the reason i'm doing them is because i've been reading all the #perl6 logs for nearly a year now (after following #perl6 loosely for years, and mailing lists before that)
16:20 japhb moritz, OK, I just completed a full './rebootstrap.pl', so panda itself + a few installed projects.
16:20 raiph so i may as well summarize what i've read
16:20 moritz japhb: bootstrap worked here too
16:20 pmichaud raiph: okay, so here are my thoughts
16:20 moritz but now
16:20 moritz $ panda install Pod::To::HTML
16:20 moritz Segmentation fault
16:20 raiph pmichaud: one last thing.
16:21 * pmichaud waits.
16:21 tadzik [Coke]: yes, it was working
16:21 tadzik see my spam last night :)
16:22 japhb moritz, I'm glad the bootstrap is working again, but I'm concerned that 1) The presence of R* broke line number annotations somehow, and 2) those JSON::Tiny fixes were needed for it not to explode.  Oh, and now 3) that you're getting a segfault.  :-(
16:22 raiph i think i need to be clear on a target audience. obvious ones being those currently doing p6 things vs those not. i could even do two summaries.
16:22 raiph ok. done for a mo. ;)
16:22 pmichaud okay, here are my reactions, in no particular order
16:22 pmichaud 1.  upon reading the reddit summary, my first thought is  "\o/"
16:22 pmichaud I think it's really cool and useful.
16:22 pmichaud I'd like to see more of them.
16:22 * japhb is ./rebootstrap.pl'ing for a second time just to make sure nothing broke with that, before trying installing another module (I already have Pod::To::HTML installed)
16:23 pmichaud 2.  Reddit isn't at all my favorite forum, though.  I'd like to see it as a blog that can be aggregated into Planet Perl 6, ironman, and the like.
16:23 pmichaud I suggest blogs.perl.org as a possibility; other blog sites are of course an option as well.
16:24 tadzik japhb: what's cooking?
16:24 tadzik we still have the bootstrap fail on windowd
16:24 moritz nom!
16:24 * moritz now cleans out his entire install dir
16:24 moritz and rebuilds  a parrot, nqp and rakudo from scratch
16:25 pmichaud 3.  I really like the format of the summary -- it's easy to follow.  I would add a "major news" section at the top to highlight anything you think deserve mention over-and-above its normal place in the chronology
16:25 japhb tadzik, Something in latest Rakudo broke the JSON::Tiny snapshot that was in panda; moritz++ merged in upstream changes, and that worked again.  But now moritz is seeing a segfault that so far I am not.
16:25 tadzik argh :(
16:26 moritz do we have a debug mode for panda?
16:26 pmichaud 4.  Everyone I know that has done summaries before cites the amount of work required and ultimate burnout.  I'm extremely happy to have you do summaries and hope you will continue them, but at some point we might want to address burnout in a manner similar to how we handle releases and advent posts.
16:27 japhb tadzik, however we've seen that something appears very fishy on moritz's system (resulting in weird backtrace line number errors), so it may just be something weird on his box (which I assume is why he's blowing his stuff away and starting again with scratch builds)
16:27 pmichaud i.e., when you start to tire, and as the patterns have been established, perhaps we can have people commit to doing specific weeks of the summary
16:27 japhb moritz, debug mode in what sense?
16:27 pmichaud the format you've developed here seems to be conducive to that approach, too -- it's just a bullet list of things that happened with some extra small commentary when appropriate.
16:28 raiph . o O ( wonders how folk do that italicized "listening" thing )
16:28 pmichaud overall, I find the post to be useful and hope you (and perhaps #perl6) can find a way to make sure it's continued.
16:29 pmichaud anyway, those are my thoughts.  raiph++ raiph++
16:29 japhb tadzik, Do you have a backtrace of the bootstrap fail on Windows?  I'm happy to apply some 1950's debugging (look at the error and the source and think REALLY HARD)
16:29 tadzik moritz: what would you expect of such mode?
16:29 tadzik japhb: yes, lemee find it
16:30 japhb raiph, I want to second everything pmichaud said, with the one quibble in #2 that after you post it to a blog, go ahead and link that blog on reddit (as someone mentioned earlier)
16:30 pmichaud japhb++   # I meant to say "and link to reddit" but forgot.
16:30 japhb raiph, are you talking about the /me command in IRC as in '/me is listening'?
16:31 * raiph feels gratitude
16:31 tadzik japhb: https://gist.github.com/3452578
16:31 raiph japhb: thanks
16:31 tadzik that's from 22.08
16:31 japhb raiph, no problem!
16:32 japhb tadzik, Heh, I bet the real error is in line #4 of that error message.  Now to find the brain fail in the source ...
16:33 japhb raiph, In a nod to IRC, I suppose, several IM systems recognize that as well.  :-)
16:33 tadzik I wonder if that's something DESTDIR-y
16:33 tadzik anyway, my proposal is as so
16:33 tadzik I'm going to move all we have in panda/master to panda/devel, modulo backporting the JSON update
16:33 japhb tadzik, was that reboostrap or just bootstrap that failed?
16:34 raiph thanks for feedback. my comments on pmichaud's 4 points.
16:34 tadzik japhb: just bootstrap I think
16:34 tadzik then we never touch master unless any("it's broken", "we've proven devel branch to work on windows at least 11 times")
16:35 japhb LOL
16:35 tadzik does that sound sane?
16:37 japhb I don't have a problem with that as long as someone actually steps up to doing the testing on Windows in a somewhat decent timeframe; I don't want to lose all interest in working on panda (which is fun and I think useful) because my changes rot in devel for too long.
16:37 tadzik sure thing
16:37 tadzik I'll try again to setup a working env on windows next week
16:37 japhb Excellent.
16:38 raiph pmichaud: 1. ("\o/"). i was going to critique your response but i think that might be misunderstood, so let me move on to point 2...
16:39 am0c joined #perl6
16:40 japhb tadzik, I think I found the problem.
16:40 raiph 2. i'll switch to a blog. preferably blogs.perl.org.
16:40 tadzik [Coke]: https://github.com/tadzik/Net--IRC contains a drop of my yesterdays' hacking
16:40 tadzik japhb: oh, whaft's that?
16:40 raiph and link to it in reddit as japhb suggested
16:41 japhb Line 22 of bootstrap.pl.  I forgot to check for a destdir in Windows format.
16:41 fgomez joined #perl6
16:41 moritz japhb, tadzik: I just want much more diagnostic output in debug mode
16:42 raiph 3. i'll do a major news (summary summary) at the top. then start each item with a tag or two (per FROGGS)
16:42 * japhb is testing that his local fix doesn't break linux
16:44 * tadzik is back
16:44 tadzik I accidentally stepped on the power switch. 1 hour of sleep strikes again
16:45 tadzik japhb: oh, that may be it, yes
16:45 japhb My feeling of nervousness when writing P6 regexen is slowly giving way to a feeling of happiness.  :-)
16:46 tadzik hehe :)
16:47 [Coke] tadzik: that repo fails "make test"
16:47 tadzik wow, there are tests? P>
16:47 tadzik :P
16:47 tadzik I had no idea
16:47 [Coke] oh! there are no tests in your repo. that would cause a failure, I bet. ;)
16:47 tadzik no, there are no tests there
16:48 tadzik panda considers that a success :)
16:48 tadzik [Coke]: side effect which I observed on that MuEvent integration is that connecting to freenode tends to freeze for a couple of minutes
16:48 tadzik not sure on what's the cause
16:48 raiph 4. i'm very aware of the issue of burnout. i've got ideas of how to reduce that. (more)
16:49 tadzik but it usually helps if you ncat localhost 1337 to it and poke it with some random data
16:49 dalek panda: 43b3ca8 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bootstrap.pl:
16:49 dalek panda: Attempted fix for Windows bootstrap problem
16:49 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/43b3ca83cc
16:49 tadzik hm, that looks a bit magical :)
16:50 japhb tadzik, successfully rebootstrapped once with the fix, and the next run seems to be going fine, so pushed it for your perusal
16:50 tadzik sure
16:50 japhb tadzik, How else do you say "rooted at the top of a filesystem" in Windows?
16:50 [Coke] tadzik: I installed that version, ran my stupid bot, and now it doesn't connect at all, it seems. program exits without staying in the N::B::I loop
16:50 tadzik I have no eye deer
16:50 tadzik I've spent 2 hours trying to compile rakudo on windows and ended up with unbootable machine
16:50 tadzik don't ask _me_ :P
16:51 raiph pmichaud: (and others) for this week i started a gist: https://gist.github.com/3408683
16:51 japhb I mean, I suppose this might break if someone was trying to install to a UNC path.  Sheesh.  I suppose we need to check for a leading double backslash as well.  :-(
16:51 tadzik [Coke]: hmm, is that possible that Freenodebot.pl is loading some ::Ping module which I forgot to commit?
16:51 raiph i've been updating that as i go along. a couple things could help me.
16:52 tadzik [Coke]: yes I did, maybe that causes the exit somhow
16:52 tadzik stupid me
16:52 raiph 1. if someone thinks an item should be considered for the summary, type an irc line with "[tag]" at the start.
16:53 [Coke] raiph: looks like mj41's charts are just the top 2 compilers.
16:53 japhb raiph: Is that 'tag' literal or metasyntactic?
16:53 raiph 2. if someone thinks the draft summary in the gist needs to change, add a comment to the gist.
16:53 benabik If it's metasyntactic, we'll end up with a lot of lines tagged Coke.  ;-)
16:54 japhb benabik, nicely put
16:54 tadzik haha
16:54 raiph japhb: meta
16:54 benabik People will think we have a corporate sponsor.
16:54 tadzik :D
16:54 japhb heh
16:54 yangyong joined #perl6
16:54 tadzik and let's hope they mean the drink...
16:55 pmichaud I'd guess literal, and perhaps "[summary]" is worthy.
16:55 japhb tadzik, the drink in original formula.
16:55 pmichaud alternatively, we could pick an uncommon term that would be easy to search for in the irc logs
16:55 [Coke] tadzik: http://feather.perl6.nl/~coke/cj.txt - that worked with the original N:I:B
16:55 pmichaud (since perlgeek.de's search doesn't like non-word searches)
16:56 raiph benabik: i'm going to be reading or at least skimming the log, so Coke won't be the biggest topic...
16:56 japhb tadzik, did you want me to add the check for UNC path in destdir?
16:56 tadzik [Coke]: ...but the code's commented out
16:56 raiph and i'm only going to pay attention to [tag] at the start of a line
16:56 tadzik japhb: I don't know what UNC is :)
16:56 tadzik I'm happy with whatever unbreaks windows bootstrap
16:57 japhb tadzik, It's how Windows boxen refer to unmounted network drives.
16:57 japhb \\server\share\file_path
16:57 [Coke] tadzik: yes, but now it doesn't even connect and do the Help thing.
16:57 tadzik even if it was to be skipping DESTDIR handling completely for now; let's gets stuff back to working state again, I'll try to make it right when I have a windows env
16:57 tadzik [Coke]: does it hang or eit?
16:57 pmichaud raiph: might I suggest having a github repo for all of the summaries, rather than gists?
16:58 [Coke] it just says Connecting to irc.freenode.net on port 6667
16:58 tadzik if the former, does it hang during the MOTD stage when you debug => True?
16:58 [Coke] and then exits.
16:58 tadzik oh
16:58 raiph [Coke]: top 3 -> 2. thanks
16:58 [Coke] 0 exit status
16:58 pmichaud raiph: then we can just hand out commitbits.  Or the repo could even be in the perl6 github account.
16:58 tadzik [Coke]: I'll recheck stuff when I get access to all("my regular box", "the internet")
16:58 raiph pmichaud: you might, did, and i will do.
16:58 raiph or you will do and add me?
16:59 tadzik [Coke]: ooooh, yes
16:59 [Coke] tadzik: thanks, sir.
16:59 tadzik I know, I broke .run() :P
16:59 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
16:59 pmichaud raiph: do you want to limit commitbits or spread them out liberally?
16:59 tadzik I made it setup MuEvent events, but it doesn't actually run anything
16:59 [Coke] tadzik: oooh, what?
16:59 tadzik so you have a chance to setup other things
16:59 pmichaud normally we just set repos to "anyone with a perl6 commitbit can commit..."
16:59 tadzik it'd work if you add MuEvent::run() at the very end
16:59 [Coke] tadzik: ah. should I use Muevent's run, then?
17:00 tadzik [Coke]: both
17:00 tadzik sorry for that :P
17:00 tadzik I was just trying to make it work at all, so it now looks illogical
17:00 tadzik Spock would not be pleased
17:00 tadzik [Coke]: the commited Freenodebot.pl does it the "right" way; $bot.run() and then MuEvent::run()
17:00 raiph pmichaud: i'd say liberal
17:01 pmichaud raiph: yeah, me too.  any idea what to call the repo?
17:01 tadzik the trick is that I made $bot.run() not actually run anything :)
17:01 sftp joined #perl6
17:01 tadzik I'll fix it later
17:02 japhb tadzik, I've got an idea for "less magical", give me a sec to try it.
17:02 pmichaud perl6/summary, perhaps?
17:02 pmichaud perl6/reports ?
17:02 raiph is a # allowed in the name? (presumably not)
17:02 pmichaud probably not
17:03 tadzik no, I think not
17:03 pmichaud if we do perl6/reports, we might have reports from more than just #perl6 channel summaries
17:03 [Coke] Definitely seeing the delay in getting into the channel..
17:03 tadzik yeah
17:03 tadzik does it help if you poke it?
17:03 tadzik oh, that only works in freenodebot
17:04 tadzik it listens on a socket on 1337 so you can talk on the channel
17:04 pmichaud I think I like perl6/reports for now.  Perhaps it can be a repo for some of Coke++'s compiler comparisons, or other reports/statistics that we decide to start accumulating.
17:04 tadzik and for some reason when you start doing that during the delay it usually gets through it
17:04 raiph how about summaries (plural)
17:04 raiph reports works too
17:05 pmichaud I prefer reports; you get to make the final decision.  :-)
17:05 raiph reports is it
17:06 raiph (i've been wanting to fit [Coke]++'s reports in somehow)
17:06 [Coke] tadzik: thank you thank you. I now have a timed event running, and the irc bot responding to things also.
17:07 tadzik nice!
17:07 tadzik awesome
17:07 pmichaud https://github.com/perl6/reports
17:07 tadzik I wonder what causes those weird delays
17:07 pmichaud perl6 team has push+pull rights to the repo
17:07 pmichaud raiph++
17:08 tadzik is that a freenode timeout of some sort, when it notices that we don't respond fast enough?
17:08 pmichaud tadzik++ Coke++  # bot bot
17:09 pmichaud I'm afk for a moment
17:10 * [Coke] stares at https://github.com/TiMBuS/Net--IRC/bl​ob/master/lib/Net/IRC/Modules/unsmith
17:10 SamuraiJack__ joined #perl6
17:14 [Coke] tadzik: sorry to bug ya: any idea how to send a message out of the blue without responding to anything?
17:15 [Coke] Net::IRC::Event.new().msg("eek", "#botttest");
17:16 [Coke] (that's as close as I've gotten yet.) Still digging.
17:19 sirrobert is there a succinct way to get a random element from a list?
17:19 pmichaud @list.pick
17:19 sirrobert ah, nice
17:19 pmichaud also   @list.pick(3)   # grab 3 elements at random from @list, w/o replacement
17:20 sirrobert huh, very cool
17:20 moritz http://doc.perl6.org/type/List#pick
17:20 pmichaud took me a minute to come up with the url :-)
17:20 pmichaud we need a bot that can take   "doc List.pick"  and convert it to the url.  :-)
17:21 sirrobert I keep forgetting to look in List for stuff
17:21 sirrobert pmichaud++
17:21 tadzik [Coke]: ah, yes
17:21 moritz http://doc.perl6.org/pick also works
17:21 pmichaud I tried http://doc.perl6.org/List.pick and it didn't work for me yet.  :-/
17:21 raiph tadzik: "weird delays" bufferbloat? http://www.chizang.net/alex/blog/2012​/07/24/bufferbloat-for-the-impatient/
17:21 moritz it's just one click more away
17:21 tadzik [Coke]: I added some copypasta in my fork, so you can do $bot.sendmsg()
17:21 tadzik see the Freenodebot.pl in my repo
17:21 pmichaud The requested URL /List.pick was not found on this server.
17:22 pmichaud anyway, fixable later.
17:22 pmichaud too many other things on my stack to work on it now :)
17:22 pmichaud should I file an issue ticket for it?
17:22 moritz yes please
17:22 dalek panda: 20030ec | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | bootstrap.pl:
17:22 dalek panda: More Win32 bootstrap compatibility work: now with UNC support and less repetition
17:22 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/20030ec099
17:23 japhb OK, tadzik: I think that's the one to either find is working on Win32, or move to devel.
17:23 japhb jnthn, ping
17:25 [Coke] tadzik++ again!
17:27 tadzik :)
17:28 moritz today's autopun: https://twitter.com/mhorsfal​l/status/236980390173224960
17:28 moritz well, it's borderline
17:28 moritz probably not a real autopun
17:28 [Coke] tadzik: you are missing the Ping module, it seems.
17:29 tadzik yes
17:29 tadzik I'll push it soonish
17:30 [Coke] hurm. No such method 'sendmsg' for invocant of type 'Net::IRC::Bot'
17:32 cognominal joined #perl6
17:32 pmichaud https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/5
17:34 benabik i<3Bex
17:34 benabik Oooooops
17:34 * benabik changes his computer passwords...
17:34 tadzik :>
17:36 tadzik [Coke]: Ping.pm pushed
17:37 moritz tadzik: have you already looked at sub pod-gist in perl6/doc's htmlify.pl?
17:37 moritz *nudge*
17:37 tadzik oh, noes, did not
17:37 tadzik will do
17:37 tadzik [Coke]: huh, indeed, I broke this sendmsg() somehow. Does it work for you?
17:39 [Coke] no, I got the error I mentioned. will repull and try again.
17:39 tadzik I'll fix it and push
17:40 tadzik and maybe give run() some sane name
17:40 tadzikbot joined #perl6
17:40 tadzikbot Oh, I can talk again!
17:40 tadzik :ping
17:40 tadzikbot tadzik: pong
17:40 tadzik good boy
17:41 tadzik [Coke]: pushed
17:41 tadzik there are a couple of things in the API that I don't quite like
17:41 tadzik maybe I could write a port of a8bot to Perl 6
17:47 sirrobert r: sprintf('%s', 'foo');
17:47 p6eval rakudo 3188ae:  ( no output )
17:47 sirrobert r: sprintf ('%s', 'foo');
17:47 p6eval rakudo 3188ae: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤  in sub sprintf at src/gen/CORE.setting:2106␤  in block  at /tmp/gSomnINKaG:1␤␤»
17:47 dalek panda: 45e2dd9 | tadzik++ | rebootstrap.pl:
17:47 dalek panda: Add a friendly message to rebootstrap.pl
17:47 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/45e2dd9f4b
17:49 crab2313 joined #perl6
17:52 tadzik moritz: ooh, it's awesome :)
17:53 [Coke] tadzik++
17:53 tadzik moritz: it doesn't like Tables though
17:54 moritz tadzik: ah yes, that's missing
17:54 tadzik I don't get part of it though
17:54 tadzik line #51 in htmlify
17:54 tadzik why would $c have an indent methnod?
17:55 moritz I assume that if it's not a Pod::Block, it's a Str
17:55 tadzik or Table there's Array
17:56 moritz that was the part I was missing
17:56 tadzik .Str.indent makes it okay
17:56 moritz +1 to that then
17:56 tadzik well, okay-ish
17:57 tadzik https://gist.github.com/3453518
17:57 tadzik it loses some table column aligning
17:57 tadzik maybe let's turn it into .perl of Array[Str]
17:58 moritz if $c ~~  Array { $c>>.Str.perl }  ?
17:59 tadzik plus indentation, and yes, should be good
18:00 tadzik yeah, looks good
18:00 tadzik https://gist.github.com/3453570
18:00 tadzik nicely done, moritz++
18:01 moritz nr: my ($a, $b) = < a b >; say "/type/$a#$b"
18:01 p6eval rakudo 3188ae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/eRN4VCfR7r:1␤»
18:01 p6eval ..niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«/type/a#b␤»
18:01 moritz that one is annoying
18:02 moritz nr: my ($a, $b) = < a b >; say "/type/$a#{$b}"
18:02 p6eval rakudo 3188ae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/2MlXuw8R35:1␤»
18:02 p6eval ..niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«/type/a#b␤»
18:02 moritz nr: my ($a, $b) = < a b >; say "/type/{$a}#$b"
18:02 p6eval rakudo 3188ae, niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«/type/a#b␤»
18:02 pmichaud I suppose I should fetch some dinner... bbl
18:03 cognominal joined #perl6
18:13 dalek rakudo/nom: 5ceefd9 | tadzik++ | src/core/Pod.pm:
18:13 dalek rakudo/nom: Improve Pod::Block stringification, moritz++
18:13 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5ceefd94e1
18:15 moritz doc.perl6.org is now 6M images and 7M HTML
18:15 tadzik wow
18:16 moritz much of that is duplicated though
18:16 dalek doc: 44661e7 | moritz++ | htmlify.pl:
18:16 dalek doc: [htmlify] write files in Class.method format
18:16 dalek doc:
18:16 dalek doc: Closes #5.
18:16 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/44661e74a3
18:16 moritz you can reach List.pick as /pick /List.pick /routine/pick and /type/List#pick
18:20 [Coke] 14:20 < cjbot> @guhoqik tweeted 'Perl 6 Essentials (Paperback): Perl 6  Essentials is a sneak-preview of Perl 6, the widely-anticipated  rewrite of... http://t.co/wdzfeXCg'
18:21 [Coke] \o/
18:24 tadzik woo'
18:24 tadzik is that like, Perl6-running?
18:24 [Coke] I don't know what that means.
18:25 larks joined #perl6
18:26 larks joined #perl6
18:29 diakopter [Coke]: I'm confused.
18:29 diakopter why tweet that
18:30 diakopter it was published 9 years ago
18:30 [Coke] diakopter: the point was not that someone tweeted that particular tweet, but that my cjbot (running on rakudo) was able to find that out and tell IRC.
18:30 diakopter ohhh
18:30 diakopter I haven't seen cjbot
18:31 [Coke] yah, he's not baked yet.
18:31 [Coke] tadzik++ just got me all the pieces I need. the glue works, now I need to smarten him up slightly.
18:31 tadzik [Coke]: that was what I meant; if the bot is Perl6-driven
18:31 jevin joined #perl6
18:33 tadzik I'm particularly curious how you made https://github.com/TiMBuS/Net--IRC/blob​/master/lib/Net/IRC/Modules/Twitter.pm work :)
18:33 [Coke] tadzik: by ignoring it completely. I didn't realize it existed.
18:33 tadzik :)
18:34 [Coke] I'm doing a LWP::Simple pull against the API.
18:34 tadzik awesome
18:42 * [Coke] looks at tadzik's URL. .. yah, wow, that would have been hard.
18:55 birdwindupbird joined #perl6
19:00 cjbot joined #perl6
19:00 * [Coke] crosses his fingers.
19:01 [Coke] feel free to boot him if we think this is too noisy.
19:01 cjbot @prinrusalv tweeted 'Perl 6 Now: The Core Ideas Illustrated With Perl 5 (Expert's Voice in Open Source) (Paperback): This book is a g... http://t.co/mJFKOF2R'
19:01 cjbot @guhoqik tweeted 'Perl 6 Essentials (Paperback): Perl 6 Essentials is a sneak-preview of Perl 6, the widely-anticipated rewrite of... http://t.co/wdzfeXCg'
19:02 [Coke] ... and that's up to the last tweet. hopefully any new ones will correctly fill in, no more than one every thirty seconds.
19:02 benabik Speaks up anytime someone on Twitter mentions "Perl 6"?
19:03 [Coke] or one of a few hash tags.
19:06 [Coke] https://github.com/coke/cjbot
19:08 [Coke] benabik: criteria (preencoded because I'm the wrong kind of lazy) on line 11
19:08 [Coke] cjbot: help
19:08 cjbot Run by Coke, I relay tweets about Perl 6.
19:08 benabik [Coke]: Saw that.
19:08 benabik Coke++
19:12 FROGGS can somebody help me with classes and namespaces? I wanna have a class within a namespace, but putting this class in a module or package doesnt help. $object.WHAT doent report the namespace...
19:13 moritz FROGGS: is that a problem?
19:14 moritz if you write   class A::B { }, then .WHAT returns A::B
19:14 sirrobert module Foo;  class Foo::Bar;
19:14 moritz if you write package A { class B { } }, then .WHAT reports B
19:14 stopbit joined #perl6
19:14 moritz so you can just pick the notation that suits your needs better
19:15 FROGGS moritz: funny thing, I was sure I tried prepending the namespace and it didnt compile... now it works, thanks!
19:15 FROGGS that was easy ;o)
19:16 sirrobert how can I export an enum?  enum E <A B C>;
19:16 sirrobert rather, the symbols A B C above
19:18 moritz I fear that's NYI
19:18 Moukeddar joined #perl6
19:18 sirrobert ok, no problemo =)
19:18 benabik constant A = E::A #?
19:18 moritz r: module A { enum E is export <a b c>  }; import A; say E;
19:18 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«E()␤»
19:18 moritz r: module A { enum E is export <a b c>  }; import A; say a;
19:18 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&a' called (line 1)␤»
19:18 moritz r: module A { enum E is export <a b c>  }; import A; say E::a;
19:18 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«a␤»
19:19 sirrobert I'll export a set of dummy methods that will act the same, and switch over when available
19:21 masak sirrobert++ # workarounditude
19:22 masak but you probably meant s/functions/methods/
19:22 sirrobert heh =)
19:22 * masak idly wonders if there's something difficult blocking export of enums
19:22 sirrobert s/methods/functions/?
19:22 moritz yes, that way
19:22 masak sirrobert: this is how tired I am currently.
19:22 sirrobert does "functions" mean something in p6 currently?
19:22 masak can't even s/// in the right direction.
19:22 masak sirrobert: sure. subroutines.
19:23 sirrobert masak: heh nod.  my wife got "Band Hero" last night and we rocked out with the kids 'til late =)
19:23 masak r: sub foo { say "OH HAI function" }; foo
19:23 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«OH HAI function␤»
19:23 sirrobert masak:  ah, I usually mean "functions" in the general sense of portable code
19:23 masak r: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI method" } }; A.new.foo
19:23 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«OH HAI method␤»
19:23 bbkr joined #perl6
19:23 masak sirrobert: sure. but you wrote "methods", which is the more specific form.
19:23 snearch joined #perl6
19:23 sirrobert ohhh, yeah
19:24 sirrobert righto =)
19:24 masak if you go deep enough into the internals of Perl 6, functions and methods are the same kind of thing.
19:24 sirrobert hey quick question (tangent)
19:25 sirrobert aside from actual code contribution, what is the most helpful way to contribute to the core development?
19:25 sirrobert money?
19:25 masak r: class A { our method foo { say "I can be lifted out of my context and called on other things" } }; my &bar = &A::foo; bar( A.new )
19:25 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«I can be lifted out of my context and called on other things␤»
19:26 masak sirrobert: we have a bigger lack of tuits than of money, considering.
19:26 sirrobert fair enough
19:26 sirrobert so man hours
19:26 masak sirrobert: we need brains, so that we can plug them into the big Perl 6 project machine.
19:26 moritz sirrobert: feedback
19:26 masak like the Matrix.
19:26 sirrobert masak: heh
19:26 sirrobert moritz: via ?
19:26 moritz #perl6 :-)
19:26 sirrobert heh ok
19:26 moritz sirrobert: you're already doing it
19:27 sirrobert fwiw, we're close to a commercial release of our product with a p6 component.
19:27 sirrobert ~1mo.
19:27 moritz \o/
19:27 sirrobert I've found it pretty easy to develop with so far
19:27 sirrobert (big thanks to all of you =)
19:28 moritz (re money, currently the main benefit would be funding travel to meetups)
19:28 sirrobert ok
19:28 sirrobert I guess more modules in the ecosystem might help indirectly
19:28 sirrobert getting more people using it
19:28 moritz they do
19:29 FROGGS thats why I to get SDL there ;o)
19:29 FROGGS (a working one)
19:29 sirrobert FROGGS:  SDL?
19:29 FROGGS graphics and input output stuff
19:29 FROGGS to make games for example
19:29 sirrobert ahhh
19:29 sirrobert cool
19:31 moritz sirrobert: http://rakudo.org/how-to-help/ fwiw
19:31 masak sirrobert: (re T minus ~1mo to commercial release) wow.
19:31 sirrobert moritz: nice, thanks
19:31 moritz the list on top isn't specific to rakudo
19:31 KohYahHwee left #perl6
19:31 sirrobert masak: it's mostly p6 and lisp
19:31 sirrobert fun stuff
19:33 masak cool.
19:34 sirrobert the cool part is that we're ending up with a smaller codebase
19:34 masak :)
19:34 * masak .oO( because making it larger just doesn't work... ) :P
19:34 sirrobert partially due to conceptual refactoring for elegance, but partially because those two languages in particular are proving to be really smooth in our problem space
19:34 masak yay
19:35 moritz masak: re exporting enums, I don't think it's hard per se... (more)
19:35 moritz masak: but enum elements have a tendency not to throw redecaration errors
19:35 moritz nr: constant a = 42; enum Foo <c b a>; say a
19:36 p6eval niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'a' (see line 1) at /tmp/iM04yOuwvU line 1:â�¤------> [32mconstant a = 42; enum Foo <c b a>[33mâ��[31m; say a[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.sett…
19:36 p6eval ..rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«a␤»
19:36 moritz heh
19:36 moritz I would have expected that to say 42
19:36 moritz anyway, that's difficult to do right with exportation
19:37 moritz because in the current setup, there's an export and an import step
19:37 moritz and the export step doesn't know about the import list yet, so it can't be sensitive to this kind of thing
19:37 [Coke] ugh. I can't leave cjbot running. he's chewing 96% of CPU on feather.
19:37 moritz and at the import step, we have lost the information if it's a "soft" or a "hard" export
19:38 moritz [Coke]: add a few sleeps (and disable them in debug mode)?
19:38 [Coke] moritz: what sleeps, it's using MuEvent.
19:38 moritz oh, hum.
19:38 moritz [Coke]: ignore me
19:38 * [Coke] wonders if disabling debug mode will help.
19:38 japhb sirrobert, re: money, I suspect the money -> value function is not smooth. There's a step at "enough to get some more people to hackathon/conference", there's a step at "help a core person justify time on a hard problem", and there's a step at "make Perl 6 a $day_job for some core person".
19:39 masak japhb: nice way to describe it.
19:39 sirrobert japhb: that makes sense.  when there's a critical mass of brains involved, that will smooth out
19:40 * moritz would love to make his living with p6
19:40 japhb DITTO THAT
19:40 sirrobert =)
19:40 * japhb works here in order to justify making that happen at $day_job some day.  :-)
19:42 moritz without a familiy, I'd take higher risks to make that happen (something part-time startup-y)
19:42 japhb ditto that, too.
19:42 sirrobert that's what I did =)
19:43 japhb Family really changes the risk equation
19:43 sirrobert japhb: yeah; they have to be all-in too
19:43 jnthn japhb: pong
19:43 sirrobert japh: thankfully my kids (4) are too young to care =)
19:43 popl joined #perl6
19:43 __sri moritz: a Typesafe for perl6? :)
19:43 japhb sirrobert, wow.  Color me doubly impressed.
19:44 sirrobert mostly it means minimal "personal interests" to make sure to have an ok balance
19:45 japhb jnthn, I was wondering if I could convince you to try pulling a current panda and running reboostrap.pl on your Windows box.  Apparently I broke it a couple days ago, I've put in what I hope is a fix, but have no way to test.
19:45 tadzik [Coke]: woah, awesome! [Coke]++
19:45 * arnsholt is starting to like tmux
19:45 moritz __sri: yes :-)
19:45 * masak read that as "* arnsholt is starting to like tux"
19:45 japhb arnsholt, on its own merits, or compared to screen?
19:46 arnsholt Compared to screen I guess, since it's what it replaced
19:46 jnthn japhb: Yes, though not tonight; I need to pack and get an early night due to 5am airport trip.
19:46 arnsholt Mostly because I now can have vertical splits (yay!) and a configuration file and documentation that isn't utterly inscrutable
19:46 jnthn Well, get up at 5am...
19:46 japhb Ah.  What do you like about tmux that screen did not give you?
19:47 jnthn japhb: Anyway, hackathoning for the coming days, so I'll find time. :) Bother me if I manage to forget :)
19:47 japhb jnthn, Oh, no problem (re: not tonight), and ++jnthn for finding time during hackathon.  ;-)
19:47 tadzik a-ha, MuEvent put to practical use. Awesome!
19:48 arnsholt japhb: Mostly the vertical splits, really
19:48 tadzik I like having WM to do that :)
19:48 adu joined #perl6
19:48 japhb arnsholt, hmmm.  Vertical splits are a tad less useful for me, because the only time I tend to want that is when I'm using my editor--which already does screen splitting.  :-)
19:48 arnsholt (Also the fact that it seems that screen's source code is so scarily spaghettied up that it makes people run away screaming)
19:48 tadzik and I still prefer gvim to vim, for some mysterious reason
19:49 arnsholt Yeah, most of the time vim's vertical splits are enough
19:49 moritz tadzik: me too
19:49 japhb Also, I got really great use out of screen -x on a second monitor to have two monitors looking at different sessions in the same screen
19:49 arnsholt But occasionally I really want vim on one side and a manpage on the other
19:49 tadzik same
19:49 moritz tadzik: mostly because the default color screen and font sizes are friendlier, I suppose
19:49 tadzik or vim here, running env there
19:49 [Coke] tadzik: it was awesome until I noted the near 100% cpu usage and shut him down. :)
19:50 arnsholt Yeah, I've done the screen -x thing a bit, but didn't quite like it
19:50 tadzik [Coke]: oh, haha, I know why :P
19:50 tadzik MuEvent just keeps running
19:50 tadzik and running
19:50 arnsholt I prefer terminal vim for some reason
19:50 tadzik "is it time? No? Ok"
19:50 tadzik "how about now?"
19:50 arnsholt Probably because almost everything I do these days is terminal-mediated anyways
19:51 tadzik [Coke]: an easy workaround is to add an idle event which will do sleep(30) or so
19:51 sirrobert arnsholt: me too
19:51 [Coke] tadzik, moritz: ah! moritz was right! ;)
19:51 arnsholt Oh, and another perk of moving to tmux is that I now have mostly-similar bindings in tmux and vim for window manipulation ^_^
19:51 * japhb often gets fumble-fingered trying to keep straight the hotkeys for changing: window within emacs, session within screen, virtual desktop within GNOME, TTY within Linux, ...
19:52 tadzik good that our sleep() is not a loop :P
19:52 moritz nr: enum A <b c>; say A ~~  Enumeration
19:52 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«False␤»
19:52 p6eval ..niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared name:â�¤        'Enumeration' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1402 (die @ 5) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) â�¤  at …
19:53 arnsholt japhb: Yeah, I fixed that now. Now I just have to keep straight whether I want to navigate withing tmux or within vim instead =)
19:53 arnsholt C-W Left and C-A Left
19:53 moritz nr: enum A <b c>; say A.^mro, A.^roles
19:53 p6eval niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method mro in type ClassHOW␤  at /tmp/klSspzutY5 line 1 (mainline @ 5) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4137 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4138 (module-CORE @ 571) ␤  at /ho…
19:53 p6eval ..rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«No such method 'roles' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::EnumHOW'␤  in block  at /tmp/H7QmozdTj2:1␤␤»
19:53 tadzik I wonder what smart event loops do
19:53 moritz r: enum A <b c>; say A.^mro
19:53 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«A() Int() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
19:54 moritz jnthn: in multi dispatch, how do I define a candidate for enums?
19:54 tadzik I think that crons actually calculate stuff like "oh, next event in 3 hours? Ok, sleep for 3 hours"
19:54 arnsholt tadzik: I think they do something like select(2) to block until something happens
19:54 tadzik hmm
19:54 moritz now that zavolaj has callbacks, you could make bindings to libev or ev
19:54 tadzik so if something happens select() wakes it up
19:55 tadzik and if not, we just sleep for however long we want to
19:55 moritz (maybe)
19:55 arnsholt Apparently there's something called poll(2) as well
19:55 tadzik we have that
19:55 tadzik but only for one socket at a time
19:55 __sri moritz: make it libuv
19:55 tadzik which is a bit, bleh
19:55 sirrobert I think someone said this before, but are heredocs in?
19:55 tadzik nope
19:55 sirrobert ok
19:55 tadzik not in Rakudo at least
19:55 masak Niecza has'em.
19:55 sirrobert ok
19:56 sirrobert it hardly matters since newlines in a "" don't warn or die.
19:56 sirrobert at least, for my uses =)
19:56 __sri https://github.com/joyent/libuv # the holy grail of cross platform event loops
19:56 moritz they are nasty to do, from a parser writer's POV
19:56 sirrobert moritz: makes sense
19:56 moritz __sri: I'm looking at uv.h now to see how easy/hard it would be create bindings
19:57 japhb __sri, does it manage to keep libev's performance?
19:57 __sri i believe all I/O in Rust is based on libuv
19:57 __sri japhb: it uses libev
19:57 __sri but also has a windows IOCP layer
19:57 japhb __sri, I meant, does it lose that performance edge in the process of putting more layers on top?
19:58 __sri nope
19:58 japhb (That's a curiosity -- it wouldn't matter for Rakudo right now, the event lib isn't the performance limitation -- I just wanted to know in general)
19:58 japhb Ah, cool.
19:59 arnsholt Feel free to create Zavolaj issues for things that block bindings for stuff =)
19:59 __sri but it is a lot more
19:59 arnsholt I have some kind of fuzzy of stuff I want to do, but issues from actual people would be great
20:01 moritz from a quick glance it doesn't look nasty
20:01 moritz (from a native call POV)
20:01 __sri japhb: it's basically your entire I/O layer if you want it to be, from non-blocking DNS async I/O emulation for filesystem operations
20:01 __sri *+to
20:01 japhb arnsholt, do you think Zavolaj is far enough along to try OpenGL/GLU/GLUT/etc. bindings?
20:02 * japhb wonders if he really wants to bite off that gigantic project all over again ....
20:02 arnsholt I have no idea, TBH
20:02 arnsholt I mean, we have most (but not all) the pieces required for "normal" C data
20:02 arnsholt Structs of stuff, arrays of stuff, plain data
20:03 moritz fwiw I think you can make pretty much everything work if you are willing to write some C glue code
20:03 japhb It was interesting to do once (for parrot), but the callbacks were painful and wrong, and the missing bits stayed missing until after I lost interest.  :-/
20:03 japhb Hmmm
20:03 moritz for example if you need access to variables, you write a pair of small C functions, one for getting, one for setting the value
20:03 __sri multiple languages already use libuv as their I/O layer, it's a pretty safe bet ;)
20:03 japhb __sri, oh?  Which langs?
20:03 __sri Rust for example
20:03 moritz node
20:04 __sri right
20:04 arnsholt The big things missing, AFAIK, are: sized thingummies in structs and arrays (probably the biggest missing piece), flattened arrays in structs (though that can be hacked around), and global variables
20:04 __sri it's the foundation of node.js
20:04 * arnsholt goes to add issues for those last two
20:04 japhb It does have an active commit history, with what appears to be two active core committers.
20:05 __sri joyent pays an army of people to work on it
20:05 __sri top folks that worked on solaris before
20:05 masak 'night, #perl6
20:05 tadzik arnsholt: last time I was missing something it was openssl/SHA1 returning unsigned long *
20:05 tadzik or maybe I just didn't know how to use that
20:05 japhb __sri, OK, I'm starting to be impressed.  ;-)
20:05 tadzik good knight masak
20:06 cjbot joined #perl6
20:06 japhb good night masak
20:06 sirrobert wave masak
20:06 arnsholt tadzik: Oh, that's another one. But you can hack around it by making it return CArray[Int]
20:06 [Coke] ok. cjbot is back, tadzik++, moritz++
20:07 FROGGS arnsholt: will I be able to pass a subroutine to a c func that takes it as a callback?
20:07 arnsholt (Same hack as moritz++ figured out for handling int* arguments to functions)
20:07 arnsholt FROGGS: YES!
20:07 __sri japhb: microsoft also pays a few people to maintain the IOCP stuff ;)
20:07 arnsholt (I'm a bit proud of that one =)
20:07 FROGGS arnsholt: but it is not done yet, is it?
20:08 arnsholt FROGGS: No docs, ATM, but take a look at the tests in Zavolaj. Called $number-callbacks.{c,t}
20:08 FROGGS wow
20:08 arnsholt Hmm. Thought we merged that one
20:08 arnsholt Lemme check
20:08 __sri microsoft really wanted to get node.js on their azure cloud, and libuv benefits heavily from that
20:08 arnsholt Yup. t/08-callbacks.{t,c}
20:08 japhb __sri, OK, that's another big plus.  One of the things that cemented jQuery for me at all $day_jobs was knowing that Microsoft used it, so I need not care about IE compatibility getting broken and no one noticing.
20:09 __sri japhb: and the best, microsoft has no say in the design, they just make it run with IOCP ;p
20:09 japhb heh
20:10 FROGGS arnsholt: ya I see, thats pretty f... awesome... now I just  need to get all the things working to actually test that ;o)
20:10 arnsholt Thanks. I'm pretty pleased with how that turned out, in the end
20:10 FROGGS ya, you can
20:10 FROGGS the handling is pretty cool actually
20:11 arnsholt It's almost entirely untested (save for the tests I pointed you at) so I wouldn't be surprised if you find bugs
20:11 arnsholt Yeah, libdyncallback turned out to be pretty awesome
20:11 arnsholt The people making that are the impressive ones, really. I just figured out how to plug into their interfaces =)
20:12 FROGGS if I would count the hours I debugged that callback stuff for perl5+libSDL... So I could imagine that not everything will work out of the box
20:12 arnsholt (I took the liberty of changin the title of your bug report BTW, to match the underlying problem)
20:12 moritz FROGGS: was there any kind of library support for callbacks in p5?
20:12 FROGGS plain xs
20:13 stopbit_ joined #perl6
20:13 moritz that sounds... painfull
20:13 FROGGS well, its C, so not _that_ painful
20:13 tadzik arnsholt: I have a feeling that doesn't quite work right
20:13 FROGGS the biggest problem was (and is sometimes) the context
20:13 tadzik https://gist.github.com/3455158
20:14 cjbot @nogoodnickleft tweeted 'My wishlist for #perl6 modules now contains support for writing PDF or djvu (see http://t.co/1Lm90lAQ ) documents. And typesetting :-)'
20:14 tadzik \o/
20:15 [Coke] holy crap it worked. ;)
20:15 tadzik arnsholt: it's supposed to return 20 bytes, but whether I use CArray[int] or CArray[int8], makes no different
20:15 tadzik s/t$/ce/
20:15 arnsholt tadzik: Hmm. Remind me: how many bytes in a SHA-1 hash, and what's the signature of the function
20:15 moritz [Coke]++
20:15 arnsholt Right, then you definitely don't want to loop up to 20
20:16 [Coke] very frustrating getting started, but now that I have a dev area working, and tadzik doing all the heavy lifting, I'm happy. ;)
20:16 arnsholt *sigh* In reality, this is sort of the sized-int thing again
20:17 [Coke] I had a bot written for an irc-like services years ago. planning on porting some of the less noisy features over from there as well.
20:17 [Coke] (https://github.com/coke/tigerlily/​tree/master/extensions/CJ/command)
20:17 tadzik arnsholt: http://www.openssl.org/docs/crypto/sha.html
20:18 arnsholt tadzik: Right. So, CArray[int] corresponds to int* in C. AFAICT, sizeof(int) is 4 on both 32 and 64-bit x86
20:18 tadzik SHA-1 (Secure Hash Algorithm) is a cryptographic hash function with a 160 bit output.
20:18 tadzik ok, how about int8?
20:18 arnsholt So, if you loop up to 5, it should work
20:18 arnsholt int8 will silently do not what you want
20:18 tadzik ok
20:18 tadzik so I have to turn into bytestream somehow
20:18 arnsholt Bah, bollocks
20:19 arnsholt There's another thing
20:19 arnsholt Getting from an array will read a Parrot INTVAL* from it, which I'm gonna bet is 8-byte on 64-bit and 4-byte on 32-bit
20:19 tadzik ergh
20:20 arnsholt Yeah, sized members are kinda important
20:20 moritz in theory Buf would be a good fit for a char[20]
20:20 arnsholt We only really handle the sizes correctly when passed to/returned from functions
20:20 japhb Yeah, I think lack of sized arrays would block OpenGL
20:21 arnsholt It's what I'm working on ATM, if it's any consolation
20:21 japhb arnsholt, oh, no worries.  Gives me a good excuse not to feel guilty about not doing it.  ;-)
20:21 arnsholt tadzik: This is work-aroundable if you're happy having a not-very-portable module for the time being
20:21 arnsholt japhb: I'll remember to nag at you when I merge the branch, then =D
20:22 japhb D'oh!  I had to reveal my true reasoning, didn't I?  :-)
20:22 arnsholt ^_^
20:28 thou joined #perl6
20:30 cjbot joined #perl6
20:33 colomon joined #perl6
20:34 dalek doc: aaf33eb | moritz++ | lib/X/Str/Numeric.pod:
20:34 dalek doc: X::Str::Numeric
20:34 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/aaf33eb8a9
20:37 dalek doc: 9388689 | moritz++ | lib/X/OutOfRange.pod:
20:37 dalek doc: X::OutOfRange
20:37 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/93886890f7
20:54 thou o/
21:04 __sri btw. if anyone wants to work on a libuv binding this is a pretty good read http://nikhilm.github.com/uvbook/index.html
21:07 __sri and of course the perl5 binding ;) https://github.com/typester/p5-UV
21:08 jnthn ooh
21:08 * jnthn may be tempted to do that during the coming hackathon
21:08 __sri \o/
21:08 jnthn (Just read that libuv should build easily on Windows. :))
21:12 dalek zavolaj: 3228da6 | moritz++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
21:12 dalek zavolaj: add export tags
21:12 dalek zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/commit/3228da6dee
21:13 felher when will be the next hackathon?
21:15 jnthn Tomorrow :)
21:27 FROGGS arnsholt, jnthn: I can now play wave-files using NativeCall and when my music stops the callback is called ;o)
21:28 skyface joined #perl6
21:28 FROGGS we took ages to get this to work with perl5 and xs, its just like minutes using p6+NativeCall
21:28 jnthn Geez, the last language I did that in was Visual Basic 5 :D
21:28 jnthn FROGGS++
21:28 dalek doc: d6df57c | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/UnlessElse.pod:
21:28 dalek doc: X::Syntax::UnlessElse
21:28 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d6df57c501
21:28 dalek doc: f3085f0 | moritz++ | lib/X/OutOfRange.pod:
21:28 dalek doc: [X::OutOfRange] add example
21:28 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f3085f04c5
21:29 lblume left #perl6
21:29 jnthn Hm, or was it VB6... :)
21:30 arnsholt FROGGS: Cool!
21:30 FROGGS it is
21:30 arnsholt jnthn: I've opened two issues on Zavolaj, BTW
21:30 FROGGS and it is so simple
21:31 felher jnthn: tomorrow? Good to know ... :)
21:31 jnthn arnsholt: I saw :)
21:31 moritz n: #`
21:31 p6eval niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Opening bracket is required for #` comment at /tmp/hKKZymLJNl line 1 (EOF):�------> [32m#`[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m��Parse failed��»
21:31 arnsholt Both of them are a bit design-y in nature, so any thoughts you might have are much appreaciated
21:31 jnthn felher: Yeah. I gotta get up at 5am for the flight. And my body currently things the usual time to go to sleep is about 2am... I won't be having much sleep tonight :)
21:31 jnthn *thinks
21:31 jnthn arnsholt: I noticed; they're on my mental stack :)
21:32 arnsholt Awesome!
21:32 arnsholt Neither are pressing, so time isn't an issue
21:32 jnthn *nod*
21:32 felher jnthn: yeah, seems so :) Where is the hackathon?
21:32 jnthn Near Stavanger.
21:32 moritz .no
21:32 jnthn .yes
21:32 felher .maybe
21:32 moritz .doubtful
21:32 dalek doc: 350fb56 | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/Comment/Embedded.pod:
21:32 dalek doc: X::Syntax::Comment::Embedded
21:32 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/350fb56ff6
21:33 moritz nr: my @00
21:33 p6eval rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot declare a numeric variable␤at /tmp/M6CRdtPRk4:1␤»
21:33 p6eval ..niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Cannot declare a numeric variable at /tmp/jU0lx2tifZ line 1 (EOF):�------> [32mmy @00[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m��Parse failed��»
21:33 felher jnthn: well, it at least shouldn't be that hot there :)
21:33 jnthn Indeed \o/
21:36 moritz nr: class A { has $.0 }
21:36 p6eval niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Two terms in a row at /tmp/U2TIx5pjHE line 1:�------> [32mclass A { has $[33m�[31m.0 }[0m��Parse failed��»
21:36 p6eval ..rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "has $.0 }"␤»
21:36 moritz that could throw the same error
21:37 jnthn Yeah, the twigil stops it parsing that way
21:37 jnthn p6: $!0
21:37 p6eval niecza v19-37-g0567c61: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m​===[0mâ�¤â�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/7qeJrzfW8o line 1:â�¤------> [32m<BOL>[33mâ��[31m$!0[0mâ�¤â�¤Confused at /tmp/7qeJrzfW8o line 1:â�¤------> [32m<BOL>[33mâ��[31m$!0[0mâ�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
21:37 p6eval ..rakudo 5ceefd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/4qNmHpKseI:1␤»
21:37 jnthn std: $!0
21:37 p6eval std 235f71b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/68yd6AQsld line 1:â�¤------> [32m<BOL>[33mâ��[31m$!0[0mâ�¤Use of uninitialized value $first in string eq at STD.pm line 66735.â�¤Use of uninitialized value $first in string lt at STD.pm line…
21:38 dalek doc: 10c196a | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/Variable/Numeric.pod:
21:38 dalek doc: X::Syntax::Variable::Numeric
21:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/10c196a600
21:38 dalek doc: 71855fd | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/Variable/Match.pod:
21:38 dalek doc: X::Syntax::Variable::Match
21:38 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/71855fd835
21:40 dalek doc: bb3688e | moritz++ | lib/X/Syntax/Signature/InvocantMarker.pod:
21:40 dalek doc: X::Syntax::Signature::InvocantMarker
21:40 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bb3688e940
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21:42 moritz O(20) error classes to go
21:43 FROGGS arnsholt: my code is at https://github.com/PerlGameDev/SDL6/tree/froggs
21:43 FROGGS I've got a problem though
21:44 FROGGS I dont know why line 27 is failing: https://github.com/PerlGameDev/SD​L6/blob/froggs/t/mixer-channels.t
21:44 * felher is a now a Big-O-Notation-Wizard: O(1) error classes to go. ;)
21:45 felher Well, in Big-O-Notation, going from O(20) to O(1) doesn't require much magic :D
21:46 moritz felher: no, just work :-)
21:52 felher moritz: well, what i wanted to say is that O(20) = O(1), but thats just nitpicking and going with the mathematical definition.
21:52 felher in essence, i din't say anything useful :)
21:54 felher And what i really wanted to say is: moritz++ for doing all the p6doc work :)
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22:24 jnthn 'night, #perl6
22:24 diakopter o/
22:27 felher o/ jnthn
22:30 [Coke] cjbot keeps dying with:
22:30 [Coke] ERROR :Closing Link: feather.perl6.nl (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
22:34 felher 'night, #perl6
22:34 [Coke] i assume this is particular to the muevent version of netircbot.
22:35 [Coke] night.
22:36 diakopter maybe he just never tested the case of leaving it uneventful past the freenode irc timeout
22:36 cjbot joined #perl6
22:37 diakopter cjbot: byte me
22:48 diakopter cjbot is quiet
22:48 [Coke] He's a platypus. They don't do much.
22:50 japhb Unless he's wearing a fedora.  Then he's a superspy.
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23:12 FROGGS gnight pals
23:19 skyface joined #perl6
23:20 skyface hi all
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