IRC log for #perl6, 2012-08-26

Time	Nick	Message
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00:44	[Coke]	sorear, masak: yay, I could that on irclog just before boarding. ;) (+%)
00:44	[Coke]	Now the last bug remaining is trying to find the "compreg"
00:45	[Coke]	d Partcl compiler.
00:50		tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
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01:08	sorear	[Coke]: boarding?
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02:17	[Coke]	sorear: yes, I've been talking to you from hotels and airports.
02:17	* [Coke]	is now at his final destination for the day.
02:18		cjbot joined #perl6
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03:26	[Coke]	er, not "I could that", but "I caught that"
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03:31	MikeFair_	sorear: hey ther
03:31	sorear	yo.
03:31	MikeFair_	sorear: Actually I was on #perl6 on the Perl Network
03:31	MikeFair_	sorear: no matter though, all here now :)
03:32	MikeFair_	sorear: So you were saying (and I was doing my best to keep up) :)
03:33	sorear	mm, it that a thing?
03:35	MikeFair_	Guess we're just a bunch of confused souls over there not realizing we belong here?
03:35	sorear	I think most of them joined so that they could tell off other people who join
03:35	sorear	but in doing so they've prevented the channel from expiring
03:36	MikeFair_	Well I just left (and then there were 9)
03:36	MikeFair_	:)
03:39	MikeFair_	There are two ways to interact with the GAC: the Global Assembly Cache Tool (gacutil.exe) and the Assembly Cache Viewer (shfusion.dll).
03:39	MikeFair_	sorear: Does that help?
03:40	sorear	1. it needs to be problematic
03:40	sorear	2. the mono gac layout is such that it cannot be quickly scanned on Linux, unless there's a database somewhere I'm missing
03:40	sorear	s/problematic/programmatic/
03:42	MikeFair_	1. totally agreed, 2. Mono has to load them, how does it do it?
03:42	MikeFair_	sorear: I guess I'm just not seeing why you have to scan? Are we building a bunch of *.pm files?
03:42	sorear	when mono or mcs wants to load an assembly from the gac, it knows the name
03:43	sorear	oh, I thought you were recommending a scan
03:43	sorear	Note
03:43	sorear	You must have administrator privileges to use Gacutil.exe.
03:43	diakopter	/o\
03:43	MikeFair_	sorear: I wonder what shfusion.dll is like...
03:44	sorear	it sounds like it's probably related to shell32.dll
03:44	sorear	anyways, i don't think a gac scan would buy much at all
03:45	MikeFair_	sorear: And one thing I've never known is whether or not the GAC is literally a Cache (like a local copy perhaps that's stored after a JIT has processed it) or is it the actual installation location
03:45	sorear	it is an installation location
03:45	sorear	it does not do line-fill/eviction like most "cache"s
03:46	MikeFair_	that location is known at run-time?
03:47	sorear	huh?
03:47	MikeFair_	sorear: Perhaps I'm missing something, you were saying that you didn't know the name of the assembly when Perl tried to load it
03:48	sorear	MikeFair_: I think at this point I don't understand the problem you are trying to solve
03:48	sorear	Currently the syntax is CLR::("assembly name")::Namespace::Class
03:49	MikeFair_	You were having some crazy ideas on how to redo niecza's name binding mechanism so 'use gtk:from<clr gtk-sharp>' Just Works
03:50	MikeFair_	And I thought, likely mistakenly, finding out what assembly to load was a problem
03:51	sorear	MikeFair_: No, the problem is with niecza's current insane semantics for scoping of nested names
03:51	MikeFair_	I was also saying that the System.Reflection classes could help with creating an auto-binding
03:51	sorear	on the CLR side, the problem is solved
03:52	sorear	sorry
03:52	MikeFair_	ahh ok
03:54	MikeFair_	So if i'm hearing you correctly, niezca currently needs to be told about an assembly because dynamically finding it based on the namespace is problematic due to scoping for nested names?
04:04	sorear	no.
04:05	sorear	it is _by design_ that you need the assembly name
04:05	sorear	assembly names are the mechanism by which the CLR tames type name conflicts
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04:07	MikeFair_	sorear: ok.... and the GAC for being able to install the same named thing multiple times for different versions
04:07	sorear	MikeFair_: the GAC is a weird pariah thing
04:08	sorear	it's mostly there to hold copies of System.dll et al
04:08	sorear	anything third-party should go into your application directory, the CLR looks there for assemblies
04:08	MikeFair_	sorear: I guess, I see it as how they can install .Net 2.0 and .Net 3.0 on the same box and have each directory holds its own version of "System"
04:08	* MikeFair_	nods.
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04:09	MikeFair_	sorear: Why isn't the namespace sufficient for taming type name conflicts?
04:09	sorear	well, where it gets interesting is transitivity
04:09	sorear	say module D comes in two versions, D 1.0 and D 2.0, both of which export a type D.D
04:10	sorear	module, I mean assembly, B, requires D 1.0
04:10	sorear	assembly C requires D 2.0
04:10	MikeFair_	sorear: There's a few pages I was reading the other month on when and how you can nest namespaces, mask type names, etc
04:10	sorear	D versions 1.0 and 2.0 are not compatible
04:10	sorear	assembly A requires both B and C
04:10	sorear	this works
04:11	sorear	it works because of the way the CLR handles class names as subordinate to assembly full names (including version & pubkey)
04:11	sorear	Perl 6 is actually supposed to do something very similar
04:12	MikeFair_	Right and those get embedded in at compile time in CLR land?
04:12	sorear	use Foo:auth<cpan:DCONWAY>:ver<1.0>
04:12	sorear	yes
04:13	MikeFair_	sorear: But in practice I assume everyone just writes use Foo::auth making the construct nearly useless?
04:13	sorear	no.
04:13	MikeFair_	sorear: Are is it been a adopted and accepted as a best practice?
04:13	MikeFair_	s/Are/Or
04:13	MikeFair_	s/is/has/
04:14	sorear	because Foo::auth means nothing unless there is a "use Foo" in scope, and the use statement can define, lexically, an implicit auth/ver
04:14	sorear	well, it hasn't been adopted mostly because it hasn't been implemented yet :D
04:14	MikeFair_	hehe - that could be a problem ;)
04:15	MikeFair_	Well I guess what you're now saying then is that if you replaced "cpan" with "clr" you could do something similar?
04:15	MikeFair_	(Or am I skipping ahead too many steps and ending up in the wrong place)
04:18	sorear	subtly wrong
04:18	sorear	the idea with :auth is that it represents some kind of naming authority
04:19	sorear	a URI which represents someone or something that issues names
04:19	* MikeFair_	nods. "Makes sense"
04:19	sorear	if cpan:TOM and cpan:DICK decide to use the same module name, there won't be a problem because the authorities are different
04:19	sorear	presumably cpan:TOM will not use the same name for unrelated modules, if he's right in the head
04:20	sorear	and cpan: IDs are unique becuase they are centrally allocated
04:20	MikeFair_	right
04:21	sorear	there is an additional name adverb :from which is more appropriate here
04:21	sorear	use Foo means use Foo:from<perl6>:auth():ver()
04:21	MikeFair_	naming conflicts are easy once that gets distributed and there isn't a central naming authority
04:21	MikeFair_	ahhh
04:21	MikeFair_	I think I see where you're going now
04:22	sorear	actually there is one more, :name
04:22	sorear	when you say 'use Foo' you are importing a module Foo and you are creating an alias Foo in the lexical scope
04:23	sorear	usually, you want them to have the same name
04:23	sorear	but the lexical alias has to be a valid Perl 6 identifier, and foreign module names don't always oblige
04:23	MikeFair_	I can see that
04:25	sorear	you might do use SWF:from<clr>:name<System.Windows.Forms>
04:25	MikeFair_	Yeah, that's what I was thinking
04:25	sorear	as for :auth I would ideally do pk:HASHHERE
04:25	MikeFair_	Though I'm not exactly clear on the distinction between from and auth
04:26	sorear	with the usual Perl 6 convention that no auth = any auth is fine, I can't be bothered to check
04:26	moritz	\o
04:26	sorear	o/ moritz
04:27	MikeFair_	auth = author?
04:27	MikeFair_	which conceptually stands for some unique namespace?
04:27	sorear	use Cecil:from<clr>:ver<0.9.4.0>:auth<pk:0738eb9f132ed756>:name<Mono.Cecil>
04:28	sorear	is the most complete syntax
04:28	sorear	auth = authority
04:28	sorear	think like a certificate authority
04:29	sorear	Larry's standard grammar starts with rammar STD:ver<6.0.0.alpha>:auth<http://perl.org>;
04:29	sorear	s/^/g/
04:30	MikeFair_	yeah I was thinking that "auth" might go really well with a domain name or a standards body
04:30	MikeFair_	Something that can provide sanity to the names it hosts
04:31	MikeFair_	Can an assembly have the same version and a different public key?
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04:35	MikeFair_	auth almost seems like it would be the runtime version
04:35	MikeFair_	and pk part of the version
04:36	MikeFair_	well maybe not auth
04:38	MikeFair_	use Cecil:from<clr 2.0>:ver<v:0.9.4.0,pk:0738eb9f132ed756>:auth<publisher_name>:name<Mono.Cecil>
04:41	sorear	you can't put that into ver
04:41	MikeFair_	bbiab
04:41	sorear	ver is fixed-format
04:41	sorear	also, publisher name is not part of the programmatic name of CLR modules
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05:10	MikeFair_	sorear: Well ok then, that settles that :)
05:11	MikeFair_	sorear: auth seems like a great place to put pk :)
05:12	MikeFair_	sorear: It's a bummer about version though, kind of prevents coming up with a better way to track versions in the future :)
05:14	MikeFair_	sorear: Anyway, regardless of that I can't help but remember how excited I was to read Larry's Apocolypses on what Perl6 was to become, I was thinking so many of the same things at the time I read those
05:14	MikeFair_	sorear: a fixed version format seems a trivial price to pay for the rest of all this goodness. :)
05:15	sorear	It's linguistically defined so it falls under the language update mechanism
05:15	sorear	If Perl 6.3 changes the version syntax, you can enable the new syntax with use v6.3;
05:16	sorear	we do a few things differently from the days of the apocalypses. we're much more focused on the present.
05:25	sorear	r: my class A::B {}; { my class A::C {}; say A::B }
05:25	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«A::B()␤»
05:26	sorear	jnthn: low-priority ping
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05:55	MikeFair_	sorear: There's a lot here that I'm wanting to learn
06:01	sorear	MikeFair_: in my last p6eval line or more generally?
06:01	sorear	whee, I have a built Rakudo
06:01	sorear	3m26s :D
06:01	MikeFair_	sorear: that seems fast
06:02	MikeFair_	sorear: more generally
06:02	sorear	MikeFair_: I started Niecza in large part because in Q2 2010, with the computer I was using at the time, Rakudo builds were more of a 10h thing
06:02	MikeFair_	seeing the word class in Perl code without some pointer next to it will take some getting used to ;)
06:03	sorear	"some pointer"?
06:03	MikeFair_	->
06:03	MikeFair_	or ::
06:03	sorear	what's the connection between class and ::/-> in Perl code?
06:04	MikeFair_	sorear: i'm just not used to seeing "class" as a keyword, and the various evolutions in Perl5 (and earlier) have used the module stuff
06:05	MikeFair_	sorear: It's totally a misrepresentation on my part, just a keyword that's new to me for perl. That's all I'm really saying. :)
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06:09	Timbus	i think a more visible difference is using . instead of ->
06:11	MikeFair_	Timbus: Yeah that too
06:11	MikeFair_	It's going to be cool
06:11	MikeFair_	Hey question, i've actually been really impressed with what the .Net stuff has done with enumerations
06:13	MikeFair_	Anything special in Perl6 regarding enumerations? I mean a lot of it probably doesn't apply because of how strict .net is, but I thought I'd ask
06:15	benabik	r: enum A <a b c>; say A::a
06:15	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«a␤»
06:16	sorear	n: enum A <a b c>; say A::a # long name
06:16	sorear	n: enum A <a b c>; say a # short name
06:16	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
06:16	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
06:17	sorear	ok, I broke niecza on p6eval
06:17	MikeFair_	:)
06:17	sorear	r: enum A <a b c>; say A::a # long name
06:17	benabik	http://perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Enumerations
06:17	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«a␤»
06:17	sorear	b: enum A <a b c>; say A::a # short name
06:17	p6eval	b 922500: OUTPUT«0␤»
06:17	sorear	r: enum A <a b c>; say A::a #
06:17	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«a␤»
06:17	sorear	ignore b
06:17	sorear	r: enum A <a b c>; say +A::c # knows its index
06:17	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«2␤»
06:18	sorear	r: enum A <a b c>; say A::c.WHAT() # knows its type
06:18	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«A()␤»
06:18	sorear	r: enum A <a b c>; say A::c.perl # long name
06:18	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«A::c␤»
06:18	MikeFair_	ok that's cool
06:19	sorear	r: enum A <a b c>; say +A("c"); say +A(1); # niecza supports using enums as coercers, but niecza is broken right now, let's see if rakudo works too
06:19	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type A in numeric context in block at /tmp/9dazyzIKWV:1␤␤0␤1␤»
06:20	MikeFair_	ok, so there's this one other thing I've been thinking about lately about replacing the base types of int/float/string with infinite enumerables
06:20	MikeFair_	the main reason I've been thinking about it has to do with I/O and internationalization
06:20	sorear	what do you mean? why?
06:20	MikeFair_	So let's take int for a second
06:20	MikeFair_	1 2 3
06:21	sorear	int isn't infinite, anyway
06:21	MikeFair_	Well numeric
06:21	MikeFair_	ok string
06:22	MikeFair_	it's not as easy to explain with string
06:22	sorear	be advised that type names in Perl 6 are case sensitive and 'int' and 'Int' are entirely different things
06:22	sorear	Int is a reference type which points to an integer of arbitrary size
06:22	sorear	int is a CPU-level integer
06:23	MikeFair_	Ok let's talk Int then
06:23	MikeFair_	the idea simply is that the string characters used to represent a number exist inside a character set
06:23	MikeFair_	and in different langauges even use different symbols
06:24	MikeFair_	and to some extent, the same number can be represented in different basis
06:25	MikeFair_	(well they most definitely can it's just not as common to speak about Int outside of base10)
06:25	sorear	I have a bad feeling about this.
06:26	MikeFair_	The think I was considering was if there was an enumerable type to line up with the character set or locale, it could mapped back to the actual "Int"
06:26	sorear	What would be the point?
06:26	MikeFair_	The same number could be expressed by casting it through its enumerable
06:27	MikeFair_	It creates a presentation layer between the machine and the human
06:27	MikeFair_	but it makes it rather transparent to the programmer
06:28	sorear	dear #perl6, I am having trouble coming up with a tactful reply
06:28	MikeFair_	sounds good
06:28	MikeFair_	thanks for listening :)
06:28	sorear	so I'm not going to say anything at all
06:28	* MikeFair_	withdraws his comments. :)
06:29	benabik	I'm not following completely, but skimming it looks like "all we need is another layer of indirection".
06:30	MikeFair_	the idea was that my application could have a locale, which would implicitly select enumerables that knew how to express the concept of that number in a locale specific way
06:31	sorear	enumerables are for things you can enumerate.
06:31	MikeFair_	benabik: It's actually more like, We have this layer of indirection that we do poorly or not at all, and maybe there's a better way to do it
06:31	MikeFair_	sorear: You can enumerate Integers
06:31	sorear	if you want to add a type coercion from Str to Num, say _that_ instead
06:31	huf	is this for code or for formatting numbers in a locale-specific way in output?
06:32	huf	or do you want strange integer literals that change their meaning depending on locale? or ... i'm lost
06:33	MikeFair_	huf: they don't change their meaning, just their representation
06:33	huf	?
06:33	sorear	MikeFair_: did you come from perl6-language@perl.org?
06:33	MikeFair_	huf: it's primarily for input and output with an end user
06:33	MikeFair_	sorear: umm, no, I take it that's not a compliment. ;)
06:33	huf	so this is just serialization
06:34	huf	i thought this was about internal representation or literals...
06:34	MikeFair_	it's something that crossed my mind when reading about enumerables in .Net that are programmaticly defined
06:34	MikeFair_	Like fibonacci
06:35	MikeFair_	Doing locale specific representation and input
06:35	sorear	MikeFair_: I think you are making the mistake of thinking IEnumerable and System.Enum have anything whatsoever to do with each other
06:35	MikeFair_	so yeah it's more about serialization
06:35	MikeFair_	sorear: likely
06:35	MikeFair_	sorear: plus I'm talking about it in Perl6
06:36	MikeFair_	sorear: So yeah, I'm fairly easily convincable that I should be locked up :)
06:36	sorear	This is, I am sorry to say, not a p6-ready idea. We've been shipping compilers for several years now and there will be no modifications to the core language unless you can 1. explain why they are needed in a way convincing to the people whose production code you've just broken 2. implement it in at least one shipping compiler
06:38	MikeFair_	sorear: Totally agreed, I'm not asking for changes, god no, and this _should be_ doable in the existing language
06:38	MikeFair_	sorear: Or not do it
06:38	MikeFair_	sorear: And it shouldn't break any existing code
06:38	sorear	Then I don't think I understand you
06:38	sorear	It seems like you want to rip out Str and replace it with a gigantic enum
06:39	MikeFair_	sorear: More like Str->enum->Int
06:39	MikeFair_	sorear: If code chooses to do that
06:39	sorear	for a purpose having ... something ... to do with locales
06:40	MikeFair_	Yes, to create a distinction between "how we present and receive" a number as separate from the number itself
06:41	sorear	well, in an hour or so the #perl6 core folks from Germany, Poland, Norway, and Sweden will be up and we'll be able to have a proper discussion about locales
06:41	MikeFair_	Another use case is for unit s convestion
06:41	MikeFair_	err conversions
06:41	huf	so instead of (pseudocode) int parse_int(str s), you'd like int parse_int(str s, enum map) where the default map is an infinitely large enum that maps "0" => 0 and so on?
06:42	huf	but you can replace it to "balin" => 0, "dwalin" => 1, .... ?
06:42	MikeFair_	huf: Yeah, and "infinitely large" to me means "some code does the conversion"
06:43	MikeFair_	huf: More like "zero"=>0, "one"=>1
06:43	sorear	MikeFair_: What advantage would this have over just calling the correct codein the first place?
06:44	MikeFair_	And my code could receive "one hundred thousand and sixty" and the number 1,060 could end up in the Int
06:45	sorear	FOUR TWO NINER FOUR NINER SIX SEVEN TWO NINER FIVE
06:45	* sorear	ducks
06:46	MikeFair_	sorear: That would be another enumerable type that could be defined
06:46	MikeFair_	sorear: hehe :)
06:47	sorear	I recognize that this is not a valid form of argument, but INTERCAL has had this feature for decades.
06:47	MikeFair_	sorear: That's interesting.... I didn't know that
06:47	* MikeFair_	feels less insane.
06:51	MikeFair_	Not that any of us would, but we could use a "Roman Numeral" representation
06:51	MikeFair_	Or someone who wanted to have a Roman Numeral calculator
06:51	* sorear	waits for MikeFair_ to find and read a definition of INTERCAL
06:51	sorear	I would prefer something like Lingua::EN::Number.parse("one")
06:52	sorear	it's just a function call, no need to make it fancy
06:52	sorear	also Lingua::EN::Number is just a module, so someone other than me can write it
06:52	MikeFair_	Create the enumeration type to do the conversion, then take any perl calculator program and set the new interface locale which uses that representation for I/O
06:54	MikeFair_	sorear: that sounds similar to what I'm talking about
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06:54	MikeFair_	The idea is that I have no idea what the end user needs to understand the numbers on the screen
06:55	sorear	What do you mean by I/O?
06:55	sorear	What if the calculator program uses a GUI?
06:56	sorear	What if the calculator program outputs to HTTP? Content-Length: MLMVII isn't going to fly.
06:56	MikeFair_	sorear: by I/O I mean the act of taking a character set and converting it to an Int and vice versa
06:56	huf	that sounds like two steps
06:56	huf	reading in bytes, taking a charset and getting a string
06:56	sorear	We don't use character sets here.
06:57	huf	and _then_ figuring out what int that string might represent
06:59	MikeFair_	huf: yes, this is more about the "figuring out what that string meant" and "outputting the meaning of the Int"
06:59	sorear	Anyways we got rid of $" outright so I can't see us _adding_ a globabl variable that controls the stringification of Int
06:59	huf	but that's not I/O...
06:59	MikeFair_	sorear: The environment shell has one
06:59	MikeFair_	huf: My apologies
07:00	MikeFair_	huf: What do you call that?
07:00	sorear	Str/Int type coercions
07:00	MikeFair_	huf: It's such a transparent single thing that rarely gets discussed (at least in the circles I travel in)
07:01	sorear	anyways, I had a hell of a time getting Niecza to run on tadzik's machine
07:01	sorear	because Niecza uses a partially text-based serialization scheme
07:02	sorear	and Polish versions of .NET have a different and incompatible definition of "number" from the US versions, even when you don't use locale calls
07:02	sorear	I am not going to make 'print 12345' in Niecza locale-sensitive, and I am not budging on this
07:03	* MikeFair_	nods.
07:03	sorear	I don't beleive in perpetuating cycles of abuse
07:03	MikeFair_	Me too, my thought is that a lot of the problem is because there's this unexamined assumption of what "print 12345" means
07:04	sorear	I could budge on 'say 1234', since say is explicitly intended for human consumption as opposed to protocols
07:04	MikeFair_	sorear: fair enough, what about on the input side
07:04	sorear	print 12345 means to output the characters "12345
07:05	sorear	print 12345 means to output the characters "12345"; we define it precisely because it needs to be usable in network protocols
07:05	sorear	Perl has no way of telling whether input comes directly from the user or from another program
07:05	MikeFair_	sorear: And those are UTF-8 characters? or Unicode
07:06	sorear	There is no such thing as "UTF-8 characters".
07:06	sorear	UTF-8 is the name of a reversable function mapping sequences of Unicode code points to sequences of bytes
07:07	sorear	If we err on the side of locale sensitivity, code written in the US which does input from other programs will break, often messily, when run in other locales
07:07	MikeFair_	ok, I always just thought of it as an encoding methodology that's different from ASCII and different from Unicode
07:07	sorear	If we err on the side of consistency code will be less usable but it won't break outright
07:07	sorear	Unicode is not an encoding methodology.
07:08	sorear	Some people use Unicode when they mean UTF-16, but they're wrong.
07:09	MikeFair_	Ok, I know that when I'm dealing with character data, if I get the encoding wrong things break
07:09	sorear	Perl 6 strings are character data, not byte data, so nothing can break there
07:10	sorear	Perl 6 also has a Buf type for byte data
07:10	MikeFair_	What is the internal representation of characters? I mean will it take japanese characters?
07:10	sorear	File handles have an associated encodings which allow them to be dwimmy
07:10	sorear	Unspecified and undetectable.
07:10	sorear	It is required to handle all 0x10FFFE Unicode characters.
07:11	MikeFair_	sorear: So if Unicode isn't an "encoding methodology" but there are things such as Unicode characters, what do you consider Unicode?
07:12	shachaf	If a picture isn't an "encoding methodology" but you can still save it in a file, what do you consider a picture?
07:12	sorear	Unicode is a map between 21-bit code points like 0x3080 and abstract characters like
07:13	sorear	む
07:13	MikeFair_	ok, yeah, I consider "bitmap" an encoding methodology for a picture
07:13	MikeFair_	you can't put a picture in a file
07:14	sorear	A character encoding, in general, is an algorithm which transforms sequences of 21-bit code points into (longer) sequences of 8-bit byte
07:14	MikeFair_	you can only put a representation in a file
07:14	sorear	You're changing definitions in the middle of the conversation. Stop it.
07:14	* MikeFair_	nods.
07:14	MikeFair_	Yes, clearly I don't have it as clearly delineated as you do yet
07:15	sorear	00:07 < MikeFair_> ok, I always just thought of it as an encoding methodology that's different from ASCII and different from Unicode
07:15	sorear	00:07 < sorear> Unicode is not an encoding methodology.
07:15	MikeFair_	right
07:15	sorear	no. I screwed up there.
07:15	sorear	I should have said first "You mean 'character encoding'"
07:16	moritz	Unicode is mostly a character repertoire
07:16	sorear	yay moritz.
07:16	moritz	plus some associated semantics
07:17	sorear	moritz: if I understand the gist correctly, MikeFair_ wants to do something to the effect of { temp $*OUT.number-formatter = &Lingua::EN::Number::format; Some::Other::Module::prints_to_stdout; }
07:18	sorear	moritz: as someone who maybe has actual experience with l10n and numerics, what do you make of this?
07:19	moritz	I don't really have that
07:19	moritz	the way to do it is to subclass $*OUT.WHAT and add custom print/say methods though, I'd guess
07:20		SamuraiJack joined #perl6
07:22	MikeFair_	moritz: one of the assumptions is that the methods to do it the right way have to be assignable at runtime
07:23	moritz	MikeFair_: erm, what?
07:23	moritz	methods have to be assignable at runtime?
07:23	moritz	you can just create the class at compile time, and chose at runtime which one you use
07:24	moritz	bog-standard OO polymorphism
07:24	sorear	MikeFair_: if you haven't already done so, I recommend you look up what INTERCAL is
07:25	MikeFair_	sorear: I did. I think I understand that you're saying this sounds like a really "trumped up" idea and is something to be made fun of
07:25	MikeFair_	sorear: Obviously I haven't read everything about it yet
07:27	MikeFair_	moritz: I guess I just considered the routines to convert Str <-> Int weren't "interruptable"
07:29	MikeFair_	The main thing I noticed is that programs do "non-US" based thinking and interaction really badly and even the l10n stuff we have is mostly second class and "difficult"
07:30	MikeFair_	and yes, I've had to write some, and my conclusion is that "we haven't figured this part out yet"
07:31	MikeFair_	The enumerables thing was just a clue that I thought gave me some insight. One of the problems is that the string "12345" and the Int 12,345 are too closely coupled
07:32	moritz	MikeFair_: I think the real problem with that l10n is that most code isn't clear about which conversions are user-visible, and which aren't
07:32	moritz	and l10n must only change user-visible conversions
07:33	MikeFair_	moritz: Well even our code goes into the compiler as strings. It's "user visible" to the developer
07:35	moritz	I didn't mean the developer with "user"
07:35	MikeFair_	moritz: I was dawning on me that the concept "12,345" stored in an 'Int' could a bazillion different representations
07:35	MikeFair_	s/I/It
07:37	MikeFair_	especially if you start taking into account what the units are as a second part of the 'Int' (like meters, widgets, dollars)
07:38	MikeFair_	That's where the enumerated types started showing up.... Maybe they should be full blown classes
07:40	MikeFair_	Regardless, you guys have been great at giving me feedback on this here
07:42	MikeFair_	It's not a totally baked suggestion yet, and like sorear showed me, I don't have my terminology sorted out yet
07:43	dalek	std: d93fffe \| larry++ \| / (5 files):
07:43	dalek	std: checkpoint STD_P5 mods in case of a bus
07:43	dalek	std:
07:43	dalek	std: currently parsing 831 lines of viv
07:43	dalek	std: review: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/d93fffe32b
07:44	TimToady	the basic principle is that we don't like accidentally generic code, but you can have intentionally generic code if you declare it so
07:44	TimToady	most L18n turns out to be accidentally generic
07:44		SamuraiJack joined #perl6
07:45	TimToady	so we tend to dislike locales intensely
07:45	* TimToady	goes to see the parade &
07:46	MikeFair_	TimToady: That's interesting... My experience was that it was maddeningly abstract because everything had to be done explicitly
07:47	MikeFair_	TimToady: I can appreciate not wanting anything to happen by accident.
07:49	MikeFair_	TimToady: I haven't quite decided if I like locales yet or not. I clearly appreciate the problem they are attempting to solve and think it's a decent first attempt approach at it.
07:50	MikeFair_	sorear: And for what it's worth, I'm not about to ask you to rewrite anything. It's my itch to scratch if I feel so strongly about it right. :)
07:51	MikeFair_	Thanks guys, good night! :)
08:00	MikeFair_	sorear: So I couldn't resist following up on Intercal before I went to bed. :)
08:01	MikeFair_	sorear: It's pretty hilarious, and I clearly described almost every single one of its idiosyncrocies
08:01	MikeFair_	sorear: That's funny
08:04	MikeFair_	gnight
08:04	sorear	gnight
08:16	masak	I can see the use for localization. much of the time even s/use/requirement/.
08:16	masak	(morning, #perl6)
08:17	masak	but I also think I agree about overgeneralizing it being a bad idea.
08:17	masak	i18n libs probably become one of those things where you use <10% of the provided functionality, and the rest is dead weight.
08:18	sorear	good morning masak.
08:18		Psyche^ joined #perl6
08:18	sorear	in sweden yet?
08:19	masak	sorear: morning. yes, been in Sweden since late wednesday evening. :)
08:20	masak	sorear: how was the flight back? was the jetlag going west easier to take than the one going east?
08:22	sorear	I don't think I particularly experienced it either way
08:23	sorear	I went to sleep quite early Fri night, but I think that was a function of not sleeping ~at all Thu night
08:23	masak	oh, good to hear.
08:23	masak	sometimes jet lag can be quite bad, but it seems you didn't have any of that, then.
08:26	sorear	Probably the best way to put it is that jet lag was the least of my problems
08:27	* shachaf	always finds GMT+2 -> GMT-8 much easier than GMT-8 -> GMT+2
08:28	sorear	also, when I arrived in GMT+2 I landed in an extremely regimented environment
08:28	sorear	Liz and Wendy basically planned out all of our waking hours in advance
08:31	masak	shachaf: it seems to vary from person to person. I find going west slightly bothersome, because I really need sleep when I get there.
08:32	moritz	just limit your travel speed to what you can do by foot (or horse or ship or bycicle)
08:33	* sorear	wonders if you can get jet lag on foot deep in the Arctic
08:35	sorear	jnthn or anyone else who is interested: I am toying with some ideas for changing lexical package handling in Niecza and I'd like feedback
08:42	* masak	is interested
08:42	moritz	http://www.pm.org/ has a new design
08:43	moritz	I am also interested, but I don't think I can provide the feedback level that sorear++ seeks
08:43	masak	oh, I don't think so either. still, I'm willing to listen. maybe I can be the teddy bear outside the sysadmin's office ;)
08:44	FROGGS_	ya, just listen and nod ;o)
08:44	* masak	nods
08:45	FROGGS	I'm interested too btw, but since I started hacking perl6 just a few days ago I won't be of any help
08:46	sorear	well we have a couple of obvious use cases that simply don't work
08:47	sorear	because lexicality of package names is limited to the first level only
08:48	sorear	if you do 'class Foo::Quux {}; { my class Foo::Bar {}; #`( code here ) }' the outer Foo::Quux cannot be seen because Foo is shadowed by the inner lexical package
08:48	sorear	so far it seems like a DIHWIDT but it really causes problems with lexical imports
08:48	sorear	use Test; use Test::More; # this doesn't look quite so contrived now does it?
08:49	sorear	niecza & rakudo have no way to create a true lexical Test::More, so they bind the second import to 'More' in the Test:: package
08:49	sorear	but Test:: isn't private to the compilation unit
08:50	sorear	you've just polluted the Test module's namespace
08:50	sorear	and anything else in your program that does 'use Test' will see Test::More because of the shared package hash
08:51	sorear	so basically what I want to do is to allow lexical names like Test::More
08:51	sorear	possibly in a preparsed format
08:51	masak	rn: class Foo::Quux { our $x = "OH HAI"; }; { my class Foo::Bar {}; say $Foo::Quux::x }
08:51	sorear	this would require a bit of smarts in the MY:: name resolver, but it seems doable
08:52	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
08:52	p6eval	..rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
08:52	masak	sorear: "cannot be seen..."? it seems to work at least in Rakudo.
08:52	masak	as I would very much expect it to.
08:53	sorear	masak: rakudo is breaking the other way, then
08:53	masak	could you demonstrate "breaking the other way" on p6eval?
08:53	sorear	class Foo::Quux { our $x = "OH HAI"; }; { my class Foo::Bar { our $x = "In FooBar"; }; }; say $Foo::Bar::x
08:53	sorear	rclass Foo::Quux { our $x = "OH HAI"; }; { my class Foo::Bar { our $x = "In FooBar"; }; }; say $Foo::Bar::x
08:53	sorear	r: class Foo::Quux { our $x = "OH HAI"; }; { my class Foo::Bar { our $x = "In FooBar"; }; }; say $Foo::Bar::x
08:53	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«In FooBar␤»
08:53	masak	hm.
08:54	masak	yeah, that seems odd.
08:55	sorear	I think STD did something similar to what I'm proposing
08:55	sorear	I thought it was insane in 2010 but now I'm coming around
08:56	* moritz	doesn't see the breakage
08:56	moritz	there's just one $Foo::Bar::x
08:57	moritz	and you assign twice to it, so of course it prints the second value
08:57	sorear	No, I only assign once to it
08:57	masak	moritz: it's visible outside the lexical scope of Foo::Bar
08:58	sorear	Foo::Bar is a my package, it ought not to be visible from outside the blcok
08:58	moritz	masak: sure, because you said "our"
08:58	moritz	ok, so the real question is "what does 'our' mean"?
08:58	masak	moritz: something inside a 'my' package is visible outside of that 'my' package's scope.
08:58	sorear	r: class Foo::Quux {}; { my class Foo::Bar { method hi() { "OH HAI" }; }; }; say Foo::Bar.hi
08:58	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
08:58	sorear	# look moritz no our in sight
08:59	sorear	I used to think this is OK, but MikeFair_ made me take a step back
08:59	masak	moritz: it'd be like the hash keys of a lexical hash variable could be declared "our" and then made visible outside of the hash's lexical scope.
08:59	moritz	masak: that's totally analogous to { our $x = 3; } ; our $x; say $x
08:59	moritz	masak: there you have a lexical block, and you can still see an our-variable from the outside
08:59	sorear	r: my class Foo::Quux {}; { my class Foo::Bar { method hi() { "OH HAI" }; }; }; say Foo::Bar.hi
08:59	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
09:00	masak	moritz: no, it's not analogous. because the package that $x is declared in there is an 'our' package.
09:00	moritz	sorear: so the problem is that namespaces with :: only work as 'our'?
09:00	sorear	Yes
09:01	* masak	finds that while he may not be very informed on these issues, he certainly is opinionated ;)
09:01	sorear	It's clearly working as designed
09:01	moritz	ok, crazy idea
09:02	moritz	what if we just stored 'Foo::Bar' in a lexical scope?
09:02	moritz	if it's my class Foo::Bar { }
09:02	moritz	instead of going through the Foo/Bar hierarchy
09:02	sorear	moritz: that's what I just proposed, only more concisely. moritz++
09:03	moritz	that means I'm not totally off track then :-)
09:04	sorear	the single biggest flaw I see is that it breaks the Foo::Bar - Foo.WHO<Bar> equivalence
09:04	sorear	which ISTR jnthn being fond of
09:05	moritz	I haven't really thought it through
09:05	moritz	what about our-classes?
09:05	moritz	if we have
09:05	moritz	our class A::B { our class C::D { } }
09:05	moritz	and
09:06	moritz	our class A { our class B::C { } }
09:06	moritz	etc.
09:06	masak	I'm for the above idea too. in fact, I thought it worked like that already.
09:06	moritz	can we make sure that lookup of A::B::C::D doesn't have to go through ridiculously many possible combinations?
09:07	sorear	moritz: I was imagining that lexicality only applies to prefixes, and greedily takes the longest
09:07	sorear	I'll go look at what STD is doing
09:08	* moritz	tries to process that
09:08	moritz	std: A::B
09:08	p6eval	std d93fffe: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤ 'A::B' used at line 1â�¤Check failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 40mâ�¤Â»
09:08	moritz	std: my class A::B { our class C::D { } }; C::D
09:08	p6eval	std d93fffe: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤ 'C::D' used at line 1â�¤Check failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 41mâ�¤Â»
09:08	moritz	std: my class A::B { our class C::D { } }; A::B::C::D
09:08	p6eval	std d93fffe: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
09:08	sorear	is A::B::C::D in %*CURLEX? No. Is A::B::C? No. Is A::B? Yes! (alias installed by our class). Let's look for C::D under the A::B class alias
09:09	masak	right.
09:09	moritz	and if not, you still have to go looking A, right?
09:09	masak	so it's not "ridiculously many possible combinations", it's a linear thing.
09:09	moritz	and then in A, look for B::C::D, recursively
09:09	moritz	oh no
09:09	masak	hm, troo.
09:09	moritz	now I understand
09:10	moritz	I think what sorear++ meant was that this is only done for the first level
09:10	moritz	so no recursion
09:10	sorear	right
09:10	sorear	because the package entries point to packages, not lexpads
09:10	sorear	recursion wouldn't make sense, typologically
09:11	masak	oh good.
09:11	masak	I don't understand why that is, but I'm releaved that it is :)
09:12	moritz	masak: a use case for macros \o/ http://blog.racket-lang.org/20[…]d-merge-sort.html
09:13	masak	moritz: nice.
09:13	moritz	that could be kind of a "man-or-boy" test for a macro implementation :-)
09:13	masak	moritz: I think with what's in nom now, we can do that. let me try during the day :0
09:13	masak	:)
09:14	masak	moritz++
09:14	* felher	wants to see that using perl6 macros :)
09:14	sorear	o/ felher
09:15	felher	o/ sorear
09:17	moritz	I don't want to discourage you, but I wonder how recursive macros can work when there's a big bug in the hygiene
09:17	masak	heh :)
09:17	masak	it's big bug, but I expect to find and fix that one quickly.
09:17	masak	I'm more concerned about the other, more subtle bug that I know about.
09:17	sorear	What big bug?
09:18	masak	sorear: seems unquotes get the macro's lexical scope, not the mainline's.
09:18	masak	r: macro foo($x) { my $v = "inside"; quasi { {{{$v}}}() } }; my $v = "outside"; say foo sub { $v }
09:18	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not get non-existent attribute '$!past' on class 'AST'␤»
09:18	masak	:/
09:19	masak	ok, that's not the failure mode I wanted to demonstrate....
09:20	moritz	http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]2-08-25#i_5930171
09:20	masak	r: macro call($a) { my $x = "how very"; quasi { say $x; {{{$a}}}() } }; my $x = "lexical"; call { say $x }
09:20	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«how very␤how very␤»
09:20	masak	r: macro foo($x) { my $v = "inside"; quasi { {{{$v}}}() } }; my $v = "outside"; say foo { say $v }
09:20	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not get non-existent attribute '$!past' on class 'AST'␤»
09:21	masak	r: macro foo($x) { my $v = "inside"; quasi { say $v; {{{$v}}}() } }; my $v = "outside"; say foo { say $v }
09:21	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not get non-existent attribute '$!past' on class 'AST'␤»
09:21	masak	hm... what's different between 'call' and 'foo'?
09:21	masak	oh!
09:21	masak	r: macro foo($x) { my $v = "inside"; quasi { say $v; {{{$x}}}() } }; my $v = "outside"; foo { say $v }
09:21	p6eval	rakudo 196572: OUTPUT«inside␤inside␤»
09:21	masak	there we go.
09:22	masak	ah, and the LTA error message is because there's not AST typecheck on unquote trees.
09:22	* masak	makes a note to add that ASAP
09:23	ChoHag	Well that's a bit shit. Emacs thinks the contents of a heredoc is just more code and tries to indent it.
09:24	ChoHag	(Not perl 6, just randing)
09:24	ChoHag	(ranting)
09:25	sorear	to be fair multiline contextual constructs like regex blocks and heredocs and pod blocks are pretty hard on editors in general
09:25	masak	they're pretty hard on parsers, too :)
09:25	sorear	I think it would be nice if we had single-line versions of the abovew
09:26	ChoHag	Single-line multi line heredocs?
09:26	sorear	ChoHag: you can make a block comment editor-friendly by prefixing each line with #
09:27	sorear	what if there was something you could use to prefix each line of a heredoc?
09:27	ChoHag	Ah.
09:27	sorear	masak: a code-aware editor is a parser that has to be able to parse malformed documents starting from the middle of the file :D
09:27	masak	something like that.
09:28	masak	seems to me a savvy editor would save intermediate parse states in order not to have to parse the whole document each time.
09:28	sorear	editing STD.pm6 gets very annoying when vim's highlighter decides to start in the middle of a regex and then messes up the entire screen
09:28	sorear	well, you can do that, but then any edit requires a huge amount of reparsing
09:30	ChoHag	If when parsing you save the state of the parse every n-hundred bytes, then a change at byte 706 doesn't have to parse the first 700 bytes.
09:30	ChoHag	And the rest can be ignored until it's visible.
09:30	ChoHag	Or something like that.
09:32		broquaint joined #perl6
09:33	sorear	wait.
09:34	sorear	n: say qq:to[OUTER];␤ hello { qq:to[INNER] } world␤ insidestuff␤ INNER␤ more stuff␤ OUTER␤
09:34	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
09:34	sorear	evalbot control restart
09:36		p6eval joined #perl6
09:37	sorear	moritz, why do I get rsync error: unexplained error (code 255) at io.c(605) [sender=3.0.9] when p6eval restarts?
09:37	sorear	n: say qq:to[OUTER];␤ hello { qq:to[INNER] } world␤ insidestuff␤ INNER␤ more stuff␤ OUTER␤
09:37	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Here document used before body defined␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1402 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Op.pm6 line 331 (HereStub.zyg @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Op.pm6 line 23 (Op.ctxzyg @ 4) ␤ …
09:39	sorear	perl 6: might be the first language to support NESTED HERE DOCUMENTS
09:40	dalek	evalbot: 3bb2f7e \| sorear++ \| evalbot.pl:
09:40	dalek	evalbot: p6eval only sees the costs of installable mode, so force inplace mode for niecza
09:40	dalek	evalbot: review: https://github.com/perl6/evalb[…]commit/3bb2f7ec54
09:41	moritz	sorear: I have no clue
09:41	sorear	I found the problem
09:42	sorear	I ran 'git pull' in the evalbot dir and it pulled changes to rsync handling
09:42	sorear	which had been in the github repo but not live since Aug 2 or so
09:45		p6eval joined #perl6
09:45	sorear	moritz: what is "ulimit -u 80" intended to accomplish?
09:47	sorear	looks like on feather3 "ulimit -u" is supported by bash but not by dash
09:48	masak	hm, I can't really use dies_ok with macros I know are going to fail during application...
09:48	masak	(because application is at compile time)
09:48	masak	I think I will need to use an eval() there.
09:49	sorear	you need to use ... eval_dies_ok!
09:49	masak	ah!
09:49	sorear	and put the macro inside the eval block, hmm
09:49	mst	http://p3rl.org/Test::Fatal
09:49	mst	^^ this API replaces all the Test::Exception rubbish nicely
09:49	mst	simpler, more orthogonal, more pleasant to work with
09:50	masak	mst: I've seen that one before. it's nice.
09:50	masak	agree about "more orthogonal".
09:50	mst	the only reason Test::Exception is useful is that it can do various bits of caller() and etc. hackery and my argument would be that that's more a "working around 5core limitations" thing than a feature
09:50		JimmyZ joined #perl6
09:51	masak	it might be too late to do a full switchover for S24 :/
09:51	mst	what's S24 ?
09:51	masak	the testing synopsis.
09:51	masak	I'm guessing it specifies eval_dies_ok et al.
09:52	masak	if people think it's a good idea to make Perl 6's Test.pm API more like Test::Fatal, I'm willing to work on that a bit.
09:52	masak	essentially try it out in a branch and prepare a patch that switches us over.
09:52	mst	I would suggest that, instead, you add the exception { ... } construct
09:52	mst	and then wait and see which you find it easier to explain to people how to write tests using
09:52	masak	nod.
09:53	masak	I like that idea.
09:53	mst	since it occurs to me that the converse of my previous statement could be valid as well
09:53	moritz	there's no reason not provide both for a while
09:53	masak	right.
09:53	mst	in that it may be that it's the workarounds ib T::Exception
09:53	masak	mst++ # suggestion
09:53	mst	that make Test::Fatal superior
09:53	mst	also, one could build the lives_ok etc. -atop- the exception { construct
09:53	mst	once they become trivial sugar
09:53	mst	I mean
09:54	mst	lives_ok = f ($block, $words) { is(!exception($block), $words); };
09:54	mst	for example
09:54	dalek	roast: 7e37729 \| masak++ \| S06-macros/macros-d2.t:
09:54	dalek	roast: [S06-macros/macros-d2.t] new test file
09:54	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7e37729213
09:54	mst	then they're hardly going to be a maint bruden
09:55	mst	masak: while I'm here I'd like to help ensure that #perl6 avoids as many perl5 mistakes as possible
09:55	dalek	rakudo/nom: d21d35d \| masak++ \| t/spectest.data:
09:55	dalek	rakudo/nom: [spectest.data] added macros-d2.t
09:55	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/d21d35d04d
09:55	moritz	note that either you'd need to write isa_ok exception({block}), X::Foo # with parens
09:55	masak	reviews on the above file are very welcome.
09:55	mst	masak: that way you can make all new mistakes that I can learn something from :D
09:56	moritz	or we'd have make exception a prefix operator
09:56	masak	"Perl 5 and Perl 6: two very good sets of complementary mistakes"
09:56	moritz	(because we have no function prototypes in p6)
09:57	moritz	masak: reviewing
09:57	moritz	masak: first of all, can haz better tets file name puleze?
09:57	moritz	d2 makes sense from your perspective, but not from anybody elses
09:57	masak	moritz: good point. I can do that.
09:58	moritz	after reading "macro podolsky" I went like "and where is rosen"?
09:58	moritz	and then I scrolled down
09:58	moritz	masak++
09:59	masak	:)
09:59	moritz	masak: the last test is wrong
09:59	moritz	masak: 'cause eval_dies_ok evals in the context of eval_dies_ok, not in the context of your sub
10:00	moritz	s/sub/code/
10:00	moritz	so it doesn't see macro bohm
10:00	moritz	(which is why the test succeeds, even though the feature you are trying to test doesn't work
10:01	masak	moritz: er.
10:01	masak	moritz: oh!
10:01	masak	moritz: you're saying eval_dies_ok's context is inside of Test.pm?
10:01	moritz	masak: correct
10:01	masak	because it's a string, so it doesn't have closure semantics....
10:01	masak	shoulda seen that, yes.
10:01	moritz	I'd love to change that, it's a very common mistake
10:02	moritz	but &eval doesn't have an option for evalling in a different context
10:03	sorear	masak: what was the bug with einstein?
10:03	sorear	02:49 < sorear> and put the macro inside the eval block, hmm
10:03	moritz	(&eval is probably the wrong abstractioin level to add that though. We should have a &compile function that compiles the code but doesn't run it yet, and that one can have such strings and wires attached like compiling in a different context)
10:04	masak	sorear: einstein works in rakudo.
10:05	masak	sorear: podolsky doesn't currently, even though it should be equivalent.
10:05	masak	&
10:05	moritz	[1] 8244
10:06	moritz	now you can just type 'fg 1' to summon masak++ again :-)
10:07	ChoHag	Free ++ with every &?
10:07	sorear	OH
10:08		drejk joined #perl6
10:08		spider-mario joined #perl6
10:09	sorear	r: macro foo() { quasi { 2 }; }; say foo
10:09	p6eval	rakudo d21d35: OUTPUT«2␤»
10:09	sorear	r: macro foo() { my $q = quasi { 0 }; $q = quasi { 1 + {{{$q}}} } for ^5; $q }; say foo
10:09	p6eval	rakudo d21d35: OUTPUT«1␤»
10:10	sorear	nm
10:10	sorear	&
10:11	moritz	r: macro upto($a, $b) { return quasi { $a } unless $b; return upto(quasi { 1 + {{{$a}}} }, $b - 1 }; say upto(0, 5)
10:11	p6eval	rakudo d21d35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "}; say upt"␤»
10:11	moritz	r: macro upto($a, $b) { return quasi { $a } unless $b; return upto(quasi { 1 + {{{$a}}} }, $b - 1) }; say upto(0, 5)
10:11	p6eval	rakudo d21d35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v, Mu *%_)␤␤»
10:18	ChoHag	Does perl 6 have a DBI-like (specifically, postgres) module?
10:19	arnsholt	jnthn: Any particular reason NativeHOW.nativesize expects an argument besides the invocant, since it just returns the size?
10:20	FROGGS	ChoHag: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/
10:20	FROGGS	since its on modules.perl6.org I can guess its in rakudo*?
10:22	ChoHag	Cheers
10:29	moritz	FROGGS: the reasoning isn't valid, but it's still in R*
10:30	moritz	and yes, it supports postgresql. With prepared statements and placeholders
10:30	moritz	.
10:47	arnsholt	Mmmm. Debug printf output in my compiler ^_^
10:48		MayDaniel joined #perl6
10:53	moritz	are you debugging output from printf? or using printf to debug?
10:55	arnsholt	The latter, thankfully =)
10:55	arnsholt	Making sure I get the right numbers in my metamodel hackery (actually storing and using sizes for native types)
11:28	FROGGS	arnsholt: I can pass my callback sub just like: thing_that_takes_a_cb( &subname )
11:28	FROGGS	right?
11:28	arnsholt	Yup
11:29	FROGGS	passing a anonymous sub and passing a $subref doesnt work right now?
11:30	arnsholt	Dunno, TBH
11:30	arnsholt	Did you try?
11:31	FROGGS	I did, no warnings, but the callback doesnt get called
11:31	arnsholt	Huh. That's a bit odd, I guess
11:33	arnsholt	I'll try to look into it
11:34	FROGGS	cool, great, thanks
11:35		tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
11:35	FROGGS	passung Mu as the arg will end up as a NULL in C?
11:35	FROGGS	passing
11:36	arnsholt	I think so
11:36	arnsholt	But most often you'll want to pass the type object
11:37	FROGGS	I mean, it works as expected (callback get unregistered) but I want to make sure
11:37	FROGGS	type object?
11:38	FROGGS	like the type identifier of a subroutine reference?
11:38	FROGGS	is it "Code"?
11:40		whiteknight joined #perl6
11:40	FROGGS	k, passing Code works too... its like it is some sort of bitch, no complains, just takes everything
11:46		thelazydeveloper joined #perl6
11:57	arnsholt	FROGGS: The type object is part of the meta-object protocol
11:58	dalek	roast: 8e15845 \| masak++ \| S06-macros/macros-d2.t:
11:58	dalek	roast: [macros-d2.t] fix mis-context
11:58	dalek	roast:
11:58	dalek	roast: moritz++ for pointing this out: strings aren't passed as
11:58	dalek	roast: closures, and eval_dies_ok evaluates things in Test.pm's
11:58	dalek	roast: lexical context. moving the macro into the string fixes
11:58	dalek	roast: it.
11:58	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8e158459ed
11:58	arnsholt	When you say "my $x = Something.new" or "my Something $x .= new" what happens is that a method is invoked on the Something metaobject
11:59	arnsholt	And the type object of a class is used as a typed undef value, which makes sense for NULL values
12:00	dalek	roast: 0710d57 \| masak++ \| S06-macros/ (4 files):
12:00	dalek	roast: [S06-macros] gave test files more descriptive names
12:00	dalek	roast:
12:00	dalek	roast: moritz++ for suggestion. now they are not tied to the
12:00	dalek	roast: grant milestones, but to what functionality they
12:00	dalek	roast: exercise... just like the rest of the test suite.
12:00	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0710d57620
12:02	dalek	rakudo/nom: f7ec305 \| masak++ \| t/spectest.data:
12:02	dalek	rakudo/nom: [spectest.data] chased macro test files rename
12:02	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/f7ec305a7b
12:23		tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
12:29		tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
13:02	* arnsholt	is starting to really like tmux
13:10		cognominal joined #perl6
13:13	* JimmyZ	is using byobu, which is tmux-based
13:14	masak	ah; nice name for a screen-like application :)
13:16	arnsholt	Hmm. Looks interesting
13:17	arnsholt	Although, I already have much of what it prints out in my xmobar status line
13:18		birdwindupbird joined #perl6
13:18	FROGGS	arnsholt: is there a way to declare default argument values using NativeCall? like: our sub my_sub( int $a, int $b = -1) is native ...
13:18	FROGGS	when trying it and calling this sub with only one arg I get a coredump
13:18	arnsholt	Don't think that'll work
13:19	arnsholt	What you'll probably want to do if you want that functionality is create a wrapper Perl 6 function that calls the dyncall function
13:19	FROGGS	is it on the wishlist already? :P
13:19	arnsholt	Nope, hadn't really considered that one
13:19	FROGGS	arnsholt: I did that too (wrapper func), but it crashes as well
13:19	arnsholt	That's odd...
13:19	FROGGS	ya
13:19	FROGGS	the subs have different names btw, its no multi stuff
13:20	arnsholt	What happens if you just call the C function directly?
13:20	FROGGS	when I call it with all args, it does what it should (plays music actually)
13:21	arnsholt	That's odd
13:21	arnsholt	Could you gist the relevant bits, perhaps?
13:21	FROGGS	that crashes: https://github.com/PerlGameDev[…]/Channels.pm6#L10
13:22	FROGGS	its not much though
13:23	arnsholt	Huh. Odd
13:26	arnsholt	Not sure what's going on
13:26	arnsholt	Could you try running it through gdb?
13:26	arnsholt	See where it segfaults
13:29	FROGGS	I will, gtg for a walk now, will report to you then
13:30	arnsholt	Excellent
13:33		MayDaniel joined #perl6
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13:49	masak	nwc10++ # nicest "how do I unsubscribe?" reply I've ever read, on p6c
13:50	masak	I also found myself thinking "whatever this guy has a PhD in, I bet it isn't mailing lists" :) people have different backgrounds.
13:55		daxim joined #perl6
14:12		marmay joined #perl6
14:13	frettled	masak: yep. And looking in message headers isn't necessarily trivial in a modern GUI-based email client, they mostly hide it somewhere for experts.
14:15		simcop2387 joined #perl6
14:17	masak	I'm not sure I'd think to look there, actually.
14:18	frettled	One of the points of the list-headers is to make it easy for email clients to identify mailinglists _and_ to unsubscribe. Look at how well that's panning out. :(
14:21	* masak	likes this quote from the distant past: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]5-06-28#i_-584545
14:22	pmichaud	good afternoon, #perl6
14:23	ChoHag	How do you call up the pod of an installed module?
14:23	geekosaur	as for the list headers, they are indeed for clients. don't think I've seen a clientother than gmail that offers unsubscribe etc. to the actual user
14:24		xinming joined #perl6
14:24	masak	good morning, pmichaud.
14:25	ChoHag	Reality isn't all it's cracked up to be.
14:25	ChoHag	It can barely be said to exist, for one thing.
14:25	pmichaud	...morning?
14:25	pmichaud	hmmmm
14:25	masak	pmichaud: UGT, Universal Greeting Time.
14:25	pmichaud	wfm
14:25	pmichaud	it's morning in #perl6, the dawn of a new era
14:25	pmichaud	or something like that.
14:38	arnsholt	jnthn is at the MOP hacakthon thingy these days, right?
14:53	pmichaud	arnsholt: yes.
14:53		Circlepuller joined #perl6
14:56	spider-mario	I now provide arch linux builds of rakudo star. :)
14:56	spider-mario	a pacman repository.
14:57	spider-mario	[rakudo]
14:57	spider-mario	Server = http://spidermario.free.fr/archlinux/$repo/$arch
14:59	masak	\o/
15:01	ChoHag	Are there docs anywhere describing a simple perl6 tcp server?
15:02	ChoHag	Also, has anything like an http daemon been written, or even something more freaky like rest or soap?
15:05	JimmyZ	ChoHag: https://github.com/tadzik/Bailador
15:06	ChoHag	That looks even better.
15:06	pmichaud	ChoHag: : https://github.com/mberends/http-server-simple/
15:07	pmichaud	I'm afk for a while -- bbl
15:07	JimmyZ	ChoHag: and https://github.com/tadzik/zblog
15:10		GlitchMr joined #perl6
15:13		perl5 joined #perl6
15:14	masak	perl5: hi. I saw you on the back of lots of YAPC::Europe t-shirts. :)
15:24		ponbiki joined #perl6
15:28	jnthn	ohhai o/
15:30	arnsholt	jnthn: \o/
15:32	arnsholt	I'm having some trouble extracting the nativesize stuff in the P6{int,num} REPRs
15:34	masak	jnthn! \o/
15:34	jnthn	arnsholt: I could tell you how, but I'm gonna change the answer pretty shortly...
15:35	arnsholt	Aha. Might as well wait for the new answer then =)
15:35	jnthn	dammit, libuv builds fine as a .lib but I can't get it to build as a .dll
15:40	ingy	greetings. seeking 2 things. 1) the current perl6 grammar. 2) A succinct idiom comparison between perl5 and perl6.
15:42	masak	ingy: (1) https://github.com/perl6/std/blob/master/STD.pm6
15:43	diakopter	(2) that would be lovely to me as well
15:43	masak	I've seen such documents, but it's been a while.
15:51	ingy	thanks!
15:51		flussence joined #perl6
16:04	arnsholt	jnthn: FROGGS gets what looks like a decontainerize of something that isn't a container in https://github.com/PerlGameDev[…]/Channels.pm6#L10 (in play_channel)
16:04	arnsholt	Backtrace at http://nopaste.info/2f9f16692a.html
16:04		marmay_ joined #perl6
16:05	arnsholt	Doesn't look like it's the literal -1 that's it. Any thoughts on what it might be?
16:05		tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
16:06	arnsholt	FROGGS: Oh. What happens if you remove the type decorations of the args in play_channel?
16:06	FROGGS	how should I pass the args then?
16:07	FROGGS	is there a $_ or @_?
16:07	FROGGS	or is it like (shift, shift, shift)?
16:08	arnsholt	Oh, you can leave the argument list, but try making it play_channel( $channel, $sample, $loops )
16:08	FROGGS	ahh, misread
16:08	FROGGS	will try
16:08	FROGGS	its working
16:09	FROGGS	I need to recheck that I did no mistake
16:11	arnsholt	Excellent!
16:11		saran joined #perl6
16:11	arnsholt	Looks like native typed args don't end up in containers
16:11	FROGGS	ya, it fails again if I add the "int" to the first arg
16:11		saran left #perl6
16:11	arnsholt	Which then explodes when we try to decontainerize
16:16		Circlepuller_ joined #perl6
16:17		saran joined #perl6
16:19		snearch joined #perl6
16:24		Circlepuller joined #perl6
16:31		saran_ joined #perl6
16:31	arnsholt	FROGGS: I think I've figured out what the problem is. I'll prod you when it's fixed
16:32	pmichaud	back again
16:34	pmichaud	reading backscroll and email
16:39	FROGGS	arnsholt++
16:39	FROGGS	thank you ;o)
16:40	arnsholt	Well, I didn't fix it yet =)
16:40	FROGGS	ya, but guessing the problem is the hardest part most times
17:11		am0c joined #perl6
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17:38	arnsholt	jnthn: What's the best way to get access to smo_id (in sixmodelobject.c) from nqp_dyncall.ops?
17:40	dalek	doc: a5c90a5 \| moritz++ \| / (2 files):
17:40	dalek	doc: X::Mixin::NotComposable
17:40	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a5c90a5be7
17:43	tadzik	0901 sorear \| anyways, I had a hell of a time getting Niecza to run on
17:43	tadzik	\| tadzik's machine
17:43	dalek	specs: c80acf9 \| moritz++ \| S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
17:43	dalek	specs: [S32::Exception] rename an exception class, for consistency
17:43	dalek	specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/c80acf9413
17:44	tadzik	...when were you... oh, I remember the case now
17:44	tadzik	good evening #perl6
17:44	moritz	\o tadzik
17:45	arnsholt	Nm. Found it
17:46	dalek	doc: 5f9c9f4 \| moritz++ \| lib/X/NoDispatcher.pod:
17:46	dalek	doc: X::NoDispatcher
17:46	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5f9c9f4491
17:48	dalek	doc: 278a4cd \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Declaration/Scope/Multi.pod:
17:48	dalek	doc: X::Declaration::Scope::Multi
17:48	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/278a4cd561
17:52	dalek	doc: 0edd594 \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Syntax/Variable/Twigil.pod:
17:52	dalek	doc: X::Syntax::Variable::Twigil
17:52	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0edd594344
17:54	dalek	doc: 4bb78ba \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Syntax/Self/WithoutObject.pod:
17:54	dalek	doc: X::Syntax::Self::WithoutObject
17:54	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4bb78baed0
17:56	masak	good morning, tadzik.
17:56	masak	rn: constant o = 42; \o
17:56	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: ( no output )
17:56	masak	rn: constant o = 42; say \o
17:56	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«\(42)␤»
17:56	p6eval	..rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«42␤»
18:04	colomon	rn: constant o = 42; say o
18:04	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«42␤»
18:07	benabik	rn: constant o = 42; say \o/ 1
18:07	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:07	p6eval	..niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Capture as a number␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 293 (Any.Numeric @ 6) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/veIlHDuYsG line 1 (mainline @ 4…
18:07	benabik	Amusing.
18:09	moritz	nr: say Capture ~~ Cool
18:09	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«False␤»
18:10	dalek	rakudo/nom: bd23ad4 \| moritz++ \| src/core/ (2 files):
18:10	dalek	rakudo/nom: rename an exception class
18:10	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/bd23ad4609
18:10	dalek	roast: d4fa5e8 \| moritz++ \| S32-exceptions/misc.t:
18:10	dalek	roast: follow exception class rename
18:10	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d4fa5e8773
18:24	moritz	nr: sub f(::T) { class A is T { } }
18:24	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤GLOBAL::T does not name any package at /tmp/EYl_nY1i4o line 1:â�¤------> sub f(::Tâ��) { class A is T { } }â�¤â�¤A type must be provided at /tmp/EYl_nY1i4o line 1:â�¤------> sub f(::Tâ��) { class A is Tâ€¦
18:24	p6eval	..rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot type check against type variable T␤at /tmp/aUJgGyqScX:1␤»
18:30	masak	how is '\o/' parsed above in benabik's evaluation?
18:30	benabik	masak: It seems to be parsed as \o / 1, given that neicza complained about capture to number.
18:34	dalek	tablets: 4eff6da \| (Herbert Breunung)++ \| docs/ (3 files):
18:34	dalek	tablets: removing noneexisting book
18:34	dalek	tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/table[…]commit/4eff6da5e3
18:34	masak	r: constant o = 42; say o/
18:34	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/Q8b9OJmTkQ:1␤»
18:34	masak	r: constant o = 42; say \o/
18:34	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/ATzNEqDZUn:1␤»
18:34	benabik	masak: I used \o/ 1
18:34	masak	oh! :)
18:34	benabik	:-D
18:34	masak	mystery solved :)
18:34	masak	sneaky ;)
18:36		xinming joined #perl6
18:47	dalek	doc: 19f2c5a \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Syntax/P5.pod:
18:47	dalek	doc: X::Syntax::P5
18:47	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/19f2c5ad97
18:49		larks joined #perl6
18:51		popl joined #perl6
18:51	* masak	.oO( Perl 6 is so different, Perl 5 is represented in it as an exception type ) :P
18:52	moritz	the Pod:: classes need documentation
18:53	moritz	any takers?
18:53	moritz	masak: oh, and the Macro class needs documentation
18:53	moritz	r: macro a { }; say &a.WHAT
18:53	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«Macro()␤»
18:53	masak	noted.
18:53	moritz	\o/
18:54	* moritz	imagines the memo percolating to the different masak clones
18:54	masak	"A macro is a Routine whose invocation typically happens during parsing."
18:54	masak	or s/m/M/ perhaps.
18:56	moritz	r: say Macro.^mro
18:56	p6eval	rakudo f7ec30: OUTPUT«Macro() Routine() Block() Code() Any() Mu()␤»
18:56	moritz	why doesn't it inherit from Sub?
18:57	masak	why should it?
18:57	masak	why doesn't Method inherit from Sub?
18:57	moritz	because it's very sub-like
18:57	masak	so is Method.
18:57	moritz	nonono
18:57	masak	sure it is.
18:57	moritz	methods are scoped differently by default
18:57	moritz	and are usually called in a different way
18:57	masak	so are macros.
18:58	moritz	called, yes. Scoped?
18:58	moritz	I hope not :-)
18:58	masak	methods are scoped the same too. they are registered differently.
18:58	masak	methods adhere to lexical scoping just as much as macros and subs do.
18:59	masak	but please, tell me what would be different in practice if I made Macro a subclass of Sub. that should be the determiner of this.
18:59	masak	not some fuzzy philosophical similarity.
19:00	masak	see, src/core/Sub.pm is empty :)
19:01	sorear	good * #perl6
19:01	moritz	you're right, it's probably not important
19:01	moritz	just different from what I expected
19:01	moritz	good morning sorear
19:02	masak	moritz: I will remember your surprise and take it in consideration in case any empirical difference manifests itself.
19:02	masak	good morning, sorear.
19:03	dalek	doc: 9795da9 \| moritz++ \| lib/Macro.pod:
19:03	dalek	doc: stub documentation for Macro
19:03	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9795da999e
19:06		larks joined #perl6
19:06	masak	moritz++
19:08		ObseLeTe joined #perl6
19:10		gongyiliao joined #perl6
19:10	masak	gongyiliao: hi.
19:10	gongyiliao	hi
19:11	masak	rn: say "Welcome to #perl{ 1 + 2 + 3 }"
19:11	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Welcome to #perl6␤»
19:12		birdwindupbird joined #perl6
19:13	moritz	rn: say "Welcome to #perl{ [+] ^4 }"
19:13	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Welcome to #perl6␤»
19:13	sorear	haven't I seen that name before?
19:15	sorear	ah, only in the sense that gongyiliao has joined #perl6 53 times since my records begin
19:16	masak	oh :)
19:18	* sorear	was momentarily confused by "nwc10"
19:18	sorear	silly internetwork name differences
19:21	FROGGS	is there a pod2html or something that can handle several =for pod blocks?
19:23	moritz	there's Pod::To::HTML
19:23	FROGGS	ohh, cool
19:24	moritz	that's what we use to generate the HTML on doc.perl6.org
19:24	sirrobert	is there a special var that knows the name of the file currently being worked on?
19:25	sirrobert	(and: hi p6 =)
19:28	sorear	rn: say $*FILE
19:28	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable name not found␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:9757␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7125␤ in block at /tmp/28zi11Lu1v:1␤␤»
19:28	p6eval	..niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
19:28	sorear	rn: say $?FILE
19:28	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«/tmp/vPw47tI1pw␤»
19:28	p6eval	..niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«/tmp/t0BITImhAC␤»
19:28	sirrobert	huh
19:28	sirrobert	I haven't seen $? before
19:28	sorear	rn: say callframe(0).file
19:28	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«/tmp/snl5S79OLb␤»
19:28	p6eval	..rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«/tmp/0Se6AQrLK4␤»
19:29	sirrobert	if $* means global, what does $? mean?
19:29	sorear	$? is for constants
19:29	sorear	lexically scoped compile time values
19:29	sirrobert	ahh... cool
19:29	sorear	in a way it's closely related to $*
19:29	felher	sirrobert: you may want to take a look at: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Twigils
19:29	FROGGS	so you are talking about __FILE__?
19:29	moritz	nr: say $?FILE
19:29	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«/tmp/FWp6A5Lqde␤»
19:29	p6eval	..rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«/tmp/vC7WDrAdxp␤»
19:29	sorear	because with recursive descent parsing, lexical scopes in the program correspond to dynamic scopes in the compiler
19:30	sorear	$? support is spotty
19:30	sirrobert	sorear\|felher: thanks--reading
19:30	sirrobert	sorear: hm ok
19:30	sorear	niecza has &?BLOCK, &?ROUTINE, $?FILE, $?LINE, $?POSITION, $?ORIG, and I think that's it
19:30	moritz	http://doc.perl6.org/language/variables#Twigils # needs much more work
19:31	sorear	rakudo I think has about the same number, it adds $?CLASS and friends but lacks $?LINE?
19:31	sorear	nr: say $?LINE
19:31	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«1␤»
19:31	sorear	nr: 1␤1␤say $?LINE
19:31	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Two terms in a row (previous line missing its semicolon?) at /tmp/Ug7FX83imF line 2:â�¤------> <BOL>â��1â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
19:31	p6eval	..rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/HoGtJg5BT4:1␤»
19:31	sorear	nr: 1;␤1;␤say $?LINE
19:31	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«3␤»
19:31	sorear	mmh
19:31	sorear	nr: say &?BLOCK
19:31	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
19:31	p6eval	..niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«routine mainline() { ... }␤»
19:31	sorear	nr: say &?MOO
19:31	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
19:31	p6eval	..niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
19:32	sorear	ok, there's one niecza has
19:33	MikeFair_	howdy #perl6
19:33	moritz	nr: say Nil ~~ Cool
19:33	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad, niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«True␤»
19:33	sirrobert	hi
19:33	MikeFair_	gmorning
19:33	masak	MikeFair_: morning!
19:34	felher	moritz: maybe i can do a bit of work on twigils in p6doc on wednesday. Today/Mon/Tue are filled up with work ($job).
19:34	felher	o/ MikeFair_
19:35	moritz	felher: that would be great
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: c7e1713 \| moritz++ \| src/ (3 files):
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: Iterable should not inherit from Cool
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable:
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: while that might be cool for core classes, it is not in the general case
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/c7e1713eb1
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: c6fac5b \| moritz++ \| src/core/Nil.pm:
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: Nil is Cool
19:35	dalek	rakudo/uncool-iterable: review: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]commit/c6fac5b63f
19:37	sirrobert	r: dir
19:37	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: ( no output )
19:37	sirrobert	r: dir.WHAT
19:37	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: ( no output )
19:37	felher	r: dir.perl.say
19:37	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«Array.new(IO::Path.new(basename => "star", directory => "."), IO::Path.new(basename => "src", directory => "."), IO::Path.new(basename => ".bashrc", directory => "."), IO::Path.new(basename => "nom-inst1", directory => "."), IO::Path.new(basename => "toqast", direc…
19:37	sirrobert	r: for dir -> $f { say $f}
19:37	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block␤at /tmp/Evirw6da_2:1␤»
19:37	sirrobert	why is that a missing block?
19:38	moritz	r: for dir() -> $f { say $f }
19:38	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«IO::Path<star>␤IO::Path<src>␤IO::Path<.bashrc>␤IO::Path<nom-inst1>␤IO::Path<toqast>␤IO::Path<test3.pl>␤IO::Path<.profile>␤IO::Path<t>␤IO::Path<nom-inst2>␤IO::Path<nom-inst>␤IO::Path<toqast-inst>␤IO::Path<toqast-inst2>␤IO::Path<examples>␤IO::Path<Makefile>␤IO::Path<…
19:38	sirrobert	hm
19:38	moritz	sirrobert: because the block is taken as an argument to the dir function
19:38	sirrobert	ohh
19:38	moritz	n: for dir -> $f { say $f }
19:38	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤â�¤Missing block at /tmp/GET_0Y3r4G line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> for dir -> $f { say $f }â��<EOL>â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
19:38	moritz	std: for dir -> $f { say $f }
19:38	p6eval	std d93fffe: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Function 'dir' needs parens to avoid gobbling block at /tmp/eX_uOAhYR_ line 1:â�¤------> for dirâ�� -> $f { say $f }â�¤Missing block (apparently gobbled by 'dir') at /tmp/eX_uOAhYR_ line 1:â�¤------> for dir -> $f { say â€¦
19:38	moritz	std has a better message
19:38	sirrobert	yeah
19:39	sirrobert	hey... you know what would be cool
19:39	sirrobert	a separate project housed only error messages. When an error got thrown out, it has something like a code
19:39	sirrobert	a separate github repo houses messages to make them helpful?
19:39	sirrobert	then is fed in during compile?
19:40	sirrobert	I would happily contribute better error messages when I came across weird stuff, but don't have time to dig into the guts
19:40	moritz	sirrobert: the problem is not the message itself
19:40	moritz	sirrobert: the hard part is detecting the error condition in the first place
19:40	sirrobert	well, in this case
19:41	sirrobert	but having a lexicon of errors could be helpful in general =)
19:41	moritz	https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]core/Exception.pm isn't too bad to hack on
19:41	moritz	sirrobert: well, doc.perl6.org has a nearly complete list
19:41	sirrobert	moritz: fair enough =)
19:42		tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
19:43	* jnthn	back from nom
19:44	moritz	wb jnthn
19:45	moritz	std: rxs//
19:45	p6eval	std d93fffe: OUTPUTÂ«===[0mSORRY!===[0mâ�¤Bogus term at /tmp/5MniyHlIb6 line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> rxs//â��<EOL>â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤ 'rxs' used at line 1â�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 42mâ�¤Â»
19:45	jnthn	Method and Sub inherit from Routine.
19:45	jnthn	That's what factors out their commonalities.
19:45	jnthn	It's fine. :)
19:45	moritz	jnthn: yes, that much isn't debated at all
19:46	dalek	doc: 3afc269 \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Syntax/Regex/Adverb.pod:
19:46	dalek	doc: X::Syntax::Regex::Adverb
19:46	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3afc269c1c
19:46	moritz	jnthn: the question was really whether Macro should inherit from Sub, or directly from Routine
19:46	jnthn	Routine. :)
19:46	jnthn	imho ;)
19:46		kst joined #perl6
19:46	jnthn	I'd not really want a macro to ~~ Sub
19:46	jnthn	That feels excessively surprising.
19:49	dalek	doc: d1d8a9d \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Syntax/Reserved.pod:
19:49	dalek	doc: X::Syntax::Reserved
19:49	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d1d8a9d00a
19:51	dalek	nqp: a886a77 \| (Arne Skjærholt)++ \| src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops:
19:51	dalek	nqp: Properly handle non-Sixmodel objects in dyncall ops.
19:51	dalek	nqp:
19:51	dalek	nqp: Two issues:
19:51	dalek	nqp: - decontainerize in nqp_dyncall.ops was out of sync with decontainerize in
19:51	dalek	nqp: sixmodelobject.c (didn't consider possibility of non-SMO arguments)
19:51	dalek	nqp: - unmarshalling code (to int/float types) need to dispatch to VTABLE_get_* in
19:51	dalek	nqp: case of non-SMO arguments.
19:51	dalek	nqp:
19:51	dalek	nqp: FROGGS++ for uncovering the problem.
19:51	dalek	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a886a77147
19:52	jnthn	nemesys: Hmm...I'm curious why the second bit was needed.
19:52	jnthn	grr
19:52	jnthn	arnsholt: ^^
19:53	arnsholt	The VTABLE stuff?
19:53	arnsholt	If it isn't SMO, REPR(value)->box_funcs->get_foo(...) kinda isn't there, no?
19:54	dalek	doc: 87275f7 \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Constructor/Positional.pod:
19:54	dalek	doc: X::Constructor::Positional
19:54	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/87275f7d7b
19:54	jnthn	arnsholt: Right. I meant...where on earth is the non-6model object coming from?
19:55	arnsholt	Native types it seems
19:56	moritz	erm, what?
19:56	moritz	you mean, sub f(int) is native(...) ?
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: d47cd3f \| (Arne Skjærholt)++ \| t/02-simple-args. (2 files):
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: Add test for wrapper sub with native parameter types.
19:58	dalek	zavolaj:
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: Closes issue #12 in conjunction with NQP commit a886a77
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavol[…]commit/d47cd3f855
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: 3d6ee45 \| (Arne Skjærholt)++ \| lib/NativeCall.pm6:
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:jnthn/zavolaj
19:58	sorear	JNTHN!
19:58	dalek	zavolaj: review: https://github.com/jnthn/zavol[…]commit/3d6ee457af
19:58	jnthn	SOREAR!
19:58	moritz	if those box into parrot PMCs, then they need more care on the callee side, I guess
19:58	arnsholt	jnthn, moritz: See the new test in zavolaj d47cd3f up there
20:00	dalek	doc: b84221e \| moritz++ \| lib/X/Syntax/Obsolete.pod:
20:00	dalek	doc: X::Syntax::Obsolete
20:00	dalek	doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b84221e64e
20:00	arnsholt	A wrapper around a native function, where the wrapper has native types on its args and passes them through to the function apparently passes the natives through
20:01	sirrobert	this is cool, but syntactically, why does it work?
20:01	sirrobert	r: my $a = {a => 1}; my $b = {b => 2}; my %h = $a, $b; say %h;
20:01	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "b" => 2).hash␤»
20:01	sorear	jnthn: I hear you're in Norway now. Anyways, I'd like you to read http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]2-08-26#i_5931019
20:01	sirrobert	why is ($h1,$h2) a hash?
20:01	sirrobert	s/$/%/
20:02	sorear	jnthn: 8:46 to 9:11
20:02	moritz	sirrobert: it seems that hash assignment flattens out hashes regardless of the sigil
20:02	sorear	sirrobert: it's not, it's a parcel
20:02	moritz	sirrobert: which looks like a bug to me
20:02	sirrobert	hm
20:02		sftp joined #perl6
20:02	moritz	n: my $a = {a => 1}; my $b = {b => 2}; my %h = $a, $b; say %h.perl
20:02	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unmatched key in Hash.LISTSTORE␤ at /tmp/jAmTUPUiEk line 1 (mainline @ 16) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4138 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4139 (module-CORE @ 571) ␤ at /home/p6eval/nie…
20:02	sirrobert	r: say ({a => 1}, {b=>2}).WHAT
20:02	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
20:03	sirrobert	r: %h = ({a => 1}, {b=>2}); say %h.WHAT; say %h;
20:03	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable %h is not declared␤at /tmp/1r2mmum6ga:1␤»
20:03	sirrobert	r: my %h = ({a => 1}, {b=>2}); say %h.WHAT; say %h;
20:03	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«Hash()␤("a" => 1, "b" => 2).hash␤»
20:03	moritz	sorear: is that error the same as "odd numer of elements in hash assignment"?
20:03	arnsholt	moritz: I dunno. If Rakudo possibly passes around bare Parrot PMCs I think the dyncall stuff is the right place to handle the possibility
20:03	sorear	moritz: yes
20:04	sorear	moritz: except you can get it with even numbers too
20:04	sorear	n: my %h = (a => 2), 'b';
20:04	p6eval	niecza v19-44-g55e895a: OUTPUTÂ«Potential difficulties:â�¤ %h is declared but not used at /tmp/tZi5QKRtaz line 1:â�¤------> my â��%h = (a => 2), 'b';â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Unmatched key in Hash.LISTSTOREâ�¤ at /tmp/tZi5QKRtaz line 1 (mainline @ 2) â�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lâ€¦
20:04	sirrobert	huh...
20:04	moritz	sorear: so it specifically handles hashes iin hash assignment?
20:04	sirrobert	r: my %h = {a=>1, b => 3}; %h ,= {c=>3}; say %h;
20:04	p6eval	rakudo bd23ad: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "b" => 3, "c" => 3).hash␤»
20:04	sirrobert	that's pretty cool.
20:05	sorear	moritz: yes
20:05	moritz	sorear: is that specced? (I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just curious :-)
20:05	sorear	I know I've seen real-world code that does 'my %h = $h'
20:06	sorear	niecza might be wrong in allowing Hashes to be freely admixed into lists of pairs, keys, and values
20:06	* sorear	looks for relevant spec
20:07	sorear	The relevant spec is S02:4711, which does NOT allow passing Hash objects to Hash.LISTSTORE
20:09		cognominal joined #perl6
20:09		cognominal joined #perl6
20:11	moritz	let's wait for a word from TimToady though. It might be an omission, since in p5 a hash would simply flatten out
20:14	* felher	should teach his address bar to recognize things like S02:4711
20:19	sirrobert	I love it when you get to that magic moment when your subs and modules and such turn into a perfect DSL.
20:21	masak	sirrobert: that's why I tend to start most designs by pretending I have the perfect DSL already :) kinda top-down.
20:21	sirrobert	masak: me too... super smooth =)
20:21	sirrobert	it tends to be multi-pass for me
20:22	sirrobert	usually 3 or 4
20:22	sorear	sirrobert: The Forth community has a wonderful additude to this. Every sub you define is defining an incremental new language
20:22	sirrobert	huh
20:22	sirrobert	never heard of "The Forth"
20:22	sorear	The (Forth community)
20:23	sirrobert	ohhh
20:23	sirrobert	heh
20:23	jnthn	sorear: Yeah, there are some issues in Rakudo around that area.
20:23	sorear	Forth is a languagey thing from many years ago
20:23	sirrobert	I think I've heard of but, but know nothing about it
20:24		bruges joined #perl6
20:26	sorear	Forth's niche is a local optimum very low on the expressiveness/implementation complexity curve
20:27	sorear	you can use it for fair-sized apps, it has a REPL, and it can be implemented in about 1-4k of machine code
20:27	dalek	Heuristic branch merge: pushed 30 commits to nqp/toqast by jnthn
20:27	benabik	Forth is used in RedPower.
20:27	benabik	(Mod that adds a 6502 processor to minecraft)
20:27	sorear	these days it gets most use in embedded systems, for the last reason
20:28	masak	they totally should've called the language "The Forth", though. :D
20:28	colomon	Forth++
20:28	colomon	\
20:28	sorear	it may be a language, but it's the kind of language that has builtins for accessing a block storage device
20:28	benabik	May the Forth be with you?
20:29	sorear	42 LOAD
20:33	masak	when I last studied the Forth culture, I got the same kind of vibes from it of "we hold the ultimate truth to how computing should be done" that I sometimes get from Lisp or Smalltalk people.
20:33	masak	not putting any value judgement in that. that's how it felt.
20:34	sorear	to put it bluntly, when a language loses its core niche, most of the people who remains are True Beleivers.
20:34	pmichaud	good evening, #perl6
20:35	sorear	good evening pmichaud
20:36	colomon	masak: actually, I think there are really interesting parallels between Forth and Lisp.
20:37	sirrobert	masak: Forth is Force with a lisp?
20:38	sorear	Forth is a fourth-generation language on a limited OS that had 5-character command names
20:38	sorear	same reason we have SCHEME instead of the originally intended SCHEMER.
20:38	sorear	.oO( if Scheme were created today, it would obviously have been named Schemr)
20:40	masak	:P
20:40	masak	and it would've had rounded corners and would only hire rock stars and ninjas.
20:44	benabik	roundrects everywhere
20:50		REPLeffect joined #perl6
20:54	jnthn	Do we need multi-jointed lexical packages?
20:54	jnthn	What happens if we kill them?
20:59	ChoHag	If you were working on a project for fun, and you weren't really sure what it was, what would you call it?
20:59	pmichaud	ChoHag: pick a fun name
20:59	ChoHag	I ask here because it will feature perl 6 for a significant part of it.
21:00	ChoHag	But what's fun about a name?
21:01	sirrobert	ChoHag: pick a commonplace thing in the same conceptual broad swath as the project.
21:01	ChoHag	Hmm.
21:01	ChoHag	It's a swathe of quite significant proportions.
21:01	sirrobert	ChoHag: e.g. if you're working on something to do brownian motion, dfo "
21:01	sirrobert	do "riverbed"
21:01	sirrobert	or something
21:02	ChoHag	hmm
21:02	sirrobert	what's the project (in like... 10 words or less)?
21:03	ChoHag	Code that writes itself.
21:03	ChoHag	Not in the quine sense.
21:03	ChoHag	9.
21:04	sirrobert	back
21:04	sirrobert	how about something like "meta"
21:05	sirrobert	oh, here you go
21:05	ChoHag	I dunno.
21:05	ChoHag	Isn't that a bit ... meta?
21:05	sirrobert	Ouroboris
21:05	FROGGS	or "cloud", everything is a cloud nowadays
21:05	masak	jnthn: I wouldn't mind, I think.
21:05	ChoHag	This has emphatically nothing to do with clouds.
21:06	sirrobert	Ouroboros, I guess
21:06	sirrobert	(s/i/o)
21:06	ChoHag	That might be a good choice.
21:06	ChoHag	Maybe Youroboros.
21:06	sirrobert	or if you want something with more popular recognition,
21:06	sirrobert	Escher
21:06	ChoHag	Because it's not really mine.
21:06	sirrobert	anyway, you get the idea
21:07	ChoHag	Yeah that'll do.
21:07	ChoHag	I'm not a big one for names.
21:07	sirrobert	it's a different skill, for sure.
21:07	ChoHag	My little girl's only 14 months and I've called her the cat's name on numerous occasions.
21:07	sirrobert	heh
21:08	FROGGS	I always swap the names of my two sons :/
21:08	sirrobert	When my son was 5 last year, he said to his mom: Hey ... <short pause> ... you, with the glasses.
21:08	FROGGS	hehe
21:08	ChoHag	That wouldn't work in our house.
21:08	sirrobert	it didn't work in ours either
21:08	sirrobert	(we both wear them)
21:09	ChoHag	My dad and brother have the same name too, and sound the same on the phone.
21:09	ChoHag	That was always fun.
21:09	FROGGS	your dad, your brother and you have the same name?
21:10	FROGGS	thats basically not the idea of names
21:10	ChoHag	My dad and brother have the same name in addition to most of my (previous) household wearing glasses.
21:10	ChoHag	Sorry I thought this was #perl.
21:10	ChoHag	Weird language being the order of the day, month and indeed year.
21:11	FROGGS	gnight
21:12	ChoHag	What's @INC changed to and how do I make it include . (or lib)?
21:12	ChoHag	(In rakudo)
21:12	sirrobert	use lib?
21:13	ChoHag	Are you asking me?
21:13	ChoHag	I'm asking you.
21:13	sirrobert	I'm asking you if that didn't work
21:13	FROGGS	use lib 'lib';
21:13	FROGGS	I use it
21:14	ChoHag	Apparently it does.
21:15	ChoHag	Too often questions have the answer 'the same as perl 5'.
21:18	felher	Yeah, and if you want it for a quick test/check/whatever, you may use:
21:18	felher	export PERL6LIB=yourPathHere
21:18	felher	And then start your program :)
21:21		fgomez joined #perl6
21:22	sorear	ChoHag: pass -I. to the compiler
21:22	sorear	"use lib" is deeply problematic
21:22	sorear	jnthn: What do you mean by multi-joined lexical packages?
21:22	ChoHag	deeply?
21:24		grondilu joined #perl6
21:25	sorear	yes, deeply.
21:26	sorear	it's kind of like very.
21:26	grondilu	There has been no news for a while on rakudo.org. What's up?
21:27	sorear	I just went to Rakudo.org and it has a post from last month concerning the release
21:27	sirrobert	where do I find the Test module?
21:27	sorear	All Perl 6 compilers come with a Test module preinstalled
21:27	jnthn	sorear: my class Foo::Bar { }
21:28	sirrobert	sorear: yeah, but where do I find it in the/a github repo?
21:28	sirrobert	sorear: I want to look at the code
21:28	sorear	sirrobert: each compiler has a different (but mostly compatible) Test module
21:29	pmichaud	sirrobert: https://github.com/rakudo/raku[…]b/nom/lib/Test.pm
21:29	sirrobert	pmichaud: ahh, thanks
21:30	sorear	sirrobert: https://github.com/sorear/niec[…]ster/lib/Test.pm6
21:30	pmichaud	time for sleep here -- be back tomorrow for some real hacking :)
21:30	sirrobert	wave
21:30	sirrobert	sorear: thanks
21:31	sorear	sirrobert: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.[…]/Test/lib/Test.pm
21:32	sorear	https://github.com/fglock/Perl[…]/Perlito6/Test.pm
21:32	sorear	https://github.com/fglock/Perl[…]/Perlito5/Test.pm
21:33	sorear	are there any productiony implementations I'm missing here?
21:37	sirrobert	dunno, but pmichaud had a dwimmier parser =)
21:38	ChoHag	Is there any automagic done on the import list of a module?
21:38	ChoHag	I can see _that_ you write an import sub, but can't find examples of any that take arguments.
21:39	ChoHag	And just parsing @_ myself seems so perl 5 .. ago.
21:40	sirrobert	ChoHag: sorry, dunno =)
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21:42	jnthn	ChoHag: If you mean what I think you do, see lib.pm6 in Rakudo
21:43	sirrobert	ok, clean tests
21:43	ChoHag	I don't think that was.
21:43	sirrobert	heading home; later all
21:43	sorear	wait, it that defining GLOBAL::<&EXPORT> ?
21:43	ChoHag	I want to know what to do about the foo bar in 'use Module <foo bar>;'
21:44	sorear	our sub EXPORT(*@a)
21:44	sorear	ChoHag: sub foo is export () { }
21:44	sorear	ChoHag: that's how you make it work.
21:44	ChoHag	So that would call foo and bar as subs when Module is loaded?
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: 9b48c83 \| jonathan++ \| src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: Don't re-use the result register of the protected region in handle op for being the overall result.
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/9b48c831ed
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: 442c735 \| jonathan++ \| src/NQPQ/ (2 files):
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: Update try, CATCH and CONTROL for QAST.
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/442c73573f
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: c2b37e4 \| jonathan++ \| t/nqp/44-try-catch.t:
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: Eliminate a bogus test, plus some other updating to the exception tests.
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c2b37e456e
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: 62dddd0 \| jonathan++ \| src/QAST/ (2 files):
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: Fix register allocation bug involving handlers and resumable exceptions.
21:44	dalek	nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/62dddd09fa
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21:46	sorear	ChoHag: no, it would copy them to the caller's namespace when Module is loaded
21:47	sorear	A.pm: 'module A; sub x is export { }' B.pm: 'use A;'
21:47	sorear	erm
21:47	sorear	A.pm: 'module A; sub x is export { }' B.pm: 'use A "x";'
21:47	ChoHag	So does nothing replace the Module->import(LIST) from perl 5?
21:47	sorear	Did you read lib.pm6 like jnthn said?
21:47	ChoHag	It was 4 lines.
21:48	ChoHag	One of them was }
21:48	ChoHag	Didn't take long.
21:48	sorear	Can you understand line 2?
21:49	ChoHag	Unless the semantics of our are radically different, yes.
21:49	sorear	line 2 is the answer to your question
21:49	ChoHag	Right.
21:49	sorear	line 2 replaces the Module->import(LIST) from perl 5
21:50	sorear	if you have the answer, why are you asking? confused
21:50	ChoHag	Because I only had the answer just now when you showed me.
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22:10	sorear	jnthn: I am going to make fairly significant changes to the way niecza handles 'my class Foo::Bar' and 'use Foo::Bar'. I think that these changes are necessary for proper handling of the multiload provisions of S11. I do not expect much short-term support.
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22:18	dalek	nqp/toqast: 8d4da1b \| jonathan++ \| src/NQPQ/Actions.pm:
22:18	dalek	nqp/toqast: Fix closure interpolation.
22:18	dalek	nqp/toqast: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8d4da1ba6a
22:20	jnthn	sorear: multiload as in, multiple versions?
22:26	sorear	jnthn: yes
22:27	jnthn	sorear: Happy hacking. If you can write up a description of what you do, I'd be interested to see it.
22:35	jnthn	sleep &
22:56	masak	'night, #perl6
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