IRC log for #perl6, 2012-09-17

Time	Nick	Message
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00:35	raiph	http://irclog.perlgeek.de/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2012-09-15;summary=1 #perl6 curated backlog for 2012-09-15
00:35	raiph	http://irclog.perlgeek.de/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2012-09-16;summary=1 #perl6 curated backlog for 2012-09-16
00:36	raiph	Use the existing navigation links above, and the "summary
00:39	raiph	The above links are what you get if you click to get to the corresponding day, then click the "summary" link that appears next to Camelia (or wraps if your screen is too narrow)
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00:45	raiph	phenny, tell moritz https://gist.github.com/3732447#gistcomment-574072
00:45	phenny	raiph: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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02:39	yarp	r: @*INC.say;
02:39	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/.perl6/lib /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.7.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤»
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04:01	skids	r: (0x1800000000000000 +& (+^0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say
04:01	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«0␤»
04:02	skids	hmmmm. that gives me f800000000000000 locally (star08). I wonder what's hosed.
04:02	TimToady	r: (0x1800000000000000 - (+^0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say
04:02	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«1␤»
04:10	sorear	skids: the perl6 executable on p6eval is 32-bit
04:10	sorear	skids: I think rakudo uses machine integers for bitops
04:11	sorear	which is kind of odd because both feather1 and feather3 are x86_64
04:11	sorear	but we have:
04:11	sorear	sorearfeather3:~$ ls ~p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6 -lh
04:11	sorear	-rwxr-xr-x 1 p6eval p6eval 57K Sep 17 06:08 /home/p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6
04:11	sorear	sorearfeather3:~$ file ~p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6
04:11	sorear	/home/p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version
04:14	TimToady	Perl 6 shuld just do bitops in arbitrary precision by pretending it's infinite precision 2's complement
04:15	TimToady	a negative number just has an infinitude of 1's instead of 0's
04:16	skids	That does work to some extent.
04:17	skids	I think there's some problems when things are near the 64-bit border and representations might be promoted/demoted.
04:17	TimToady	of course, if you know you're gonna store the result in a native location, you can optimize
04:18	TimToady	we want fast crypto too :)
04:18	skids	r: (0x1800000000000000 +& (0xffffffffffffffff +^ 0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say # workaround, works locally here.
04:18	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«0␤»
04:18	skids	hrm.
04:26	skids	r: (0x1800000000000000 +& (0xfffffffffffffffff +^ 0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say
04:26	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«0␤»
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04:48	moritz	good morning
04:48	phenny	moritz: 16 Sep 17:09Z <raiph> tell moritz https://gist.github.com/3732447
04:48	phenny	moritz: 16 Sep 18:20Z <not_gerd> tell moritz there appears to be some confusion on left<->right in the section on item assignment of http://doc.perl6.org/language/operators
04:48	phenny	moritz: 16 Sep 21:16Z <raiph> tell moritz What about logmarks? Click time field toggles a logmark. Logmark'd lines are highlighted. Does everything we need for phase 1. Very simple. What's not to love?
04:48	phenny	moritz: 00:45Z <raiph> tell moritz https://gist.github.com/3732447#gistcomment-574072
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05:06	raiph	http://blogs.perl.org/users/perl_6_reports/2012/09/perl6-summary-now-built-in-to-irclog-software.html
05:07	moritz	what's not to love? that clicking on the time already has another function that I'd like to preserve
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05:23	sorear	moritz: could have a separate mode for raiph, no?
05:23	raiph	moritz: ok.
05:24	raiph	sorear: that's basically what's there now. works great.
05:25	raiph	(but I don't let "works great" for certain use cases get in the way of "works better" for more use cases)
05:26	raiph	moritz: forgetting clicking on time, what do you think of the basic approach? click a line, it's logmarked. that's it.
05:27	moritz	raiph: it'd like to hear more feedback on the summary mode from others first
05:27	moritz	raiph: if it's something that most people don't bother with, I don't want to integrate it that tightly with the rest of the page
05:28	moritz	if it's something most users pick up, I'm all for tighter integration
05:31	raiph	moritz: "more feedback". makes sense.
05:42	raiph	moritz: While I hugely want this new summary mode to be successful, I don't want it to rely on me.
05:42	raiph	moritz: I'm already concerned because no one but me has done the summarizing in the day since you enabled the feature.
05:43	raiph	moritz: While that may of course change, it's not an auspicious start.
05:43	raiph	moritz: It doesn't take long to do a whole day, maybe an hour or two, but it's all relative.
05:45	raiph	I was really hoping for an approach that would lend itself to communal summarizing.
05:47	raiph	We shall of course see. I'm doing my best to encourage folk to help out. For example my latest blog:
05:48	raiph	http://blogs.perl.org/users/perl_6_reports/2012/09/perl6-summary-now-built-in-to-irclog-software.html
05:48	raiph	Here's hoping.
05:51	raiph	*communal and continuous (up-to-the-minute) summarizing
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07:21	FROGGS	good morning
07:25	sorear	o/
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07:46	kresike	good morning all you happy perl6 people
07:46	sorear	o/
07:49	mathw	Good morning
08:00	anuby	0/
08:05	brrt	\o kresike
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08:24	dalek	Perlito: 408fa18 \| (Flavio S. Glock)++ \| Makefile:
08:24	dalek	Perlito: Perlito5 - add "make minify"
08:24	dalek	Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/408fa18d79
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08:44	yarp	nr: my Num @number=<3 4 5 6>; @number[4] = [+] @number; @number.say;
08:44	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«3 4 5 6 18␤»
08:44	p6eval	..rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/ByQwh5XleO:1␤␤»
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08:53		return joined #perl6
08:54	return	r: '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$0~$0},:g)
08:54	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/SpZ3bZi89C:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/SpZ3bZi89C:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/SpZ3bZi89…
08:55	return	r: '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$1~$1},:g)
08:55	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/C9vHJNhAY9:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/C9vHJNhAY9:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/C9vHJNhAY…
08:56	return	n: '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$0~$0},:g)
08:56	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: ( no output )
08:57	return	hello \o/ perl6, why the code wrong?
09:00	return	n: say '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$0~$0},:g)
09:00	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«11a22b33c44d55␤»
09:01	return	\|o/ n++
09:01	jnthn	morning o/
09:02	return	morning jnth \o\
09:02	return	n: say '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{sprintf("%02d",$0)},:g)
09:02	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«01a02b03c04d05␤»
09:03	return	r: say '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{sprintf("%02d",$0)},:g)
09:03	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«No such method 'Int' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in any at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:91␤ in sub sprintf at src/gen/CORE.setting:2131␤ in block at /tmp/SyyL1YY6LX:1␤␤»
09:04	jnthn	r: say '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,-> $/ {sprintf("%02d",$0)},:g)
09:04	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«01a02b03c04d05␤»
09:05	return	oh r++
09:08	FROGGS	hi jnthn
09:09	return	jnthn: thanks.
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11:08	jnthn	std: -foo => 'bar'
11:08	p6eval	std b842bb3: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
11:09	jnthn	std: +foo => 'bar'
11:09	p6eval	std b842bb3: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
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11:11	jnthn	In http://glitchmr.github.com/perl-6-changes-2012W37.html it mentions that -foo => 'bar' pair form is now supported, but the commit was to STD_P5, not STD: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/942bb1cfc5bf29d1b09bc5ae4fb32c41e9956a74
11:11	jnthn	Otherwise, nice summary :)
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11:37	pmurias	jnthn: does nqp -e 'use nqp' work for your?
11:39	jnthn	pmurias: No; I fixed the compreg approach though
11:39	jnthn	(The one you were originally trying)
11:40	pmurias	thanks, worked
11:51	sirrobert	what mechanism is there for class-level variables?
11:51	jnthn	sirrobert: You, er, declare a variable inside of the class. :-)
11:51	hoelzro	sirrobert: I think you can just do this:
11:51	sirrobert	via closure?
11:52	hoelzro	class MyClass { my $foo; }
11:52	jnthn	Right. :)
11:52	sirrobert	then manually do an accessor to get it from outside?
11:52	jnthn	my $.foo; # generates an accessor for you
11:52	Su-Shee	that's what $.foo is for..
11:52	sirrobert	ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
11:52	sirrobert	not has $.foo
11:52	sirrobert	my $.foo
11:53	jnthn	Right, "has" means "one per instance"
11:53	sirrobert	yeah
11:53	sirrobert	ok, that's great
11:53	sirrobert	trying it out now =)
11:53	FROGGS	ohh, good to know
11:53	sirrobert	that's great.
11:54	sirrobert	I notice that "my $.bar" doesn't need "is rw" the same way "has $.bar" does.
11:54	Su-Shee	I thought rw is default anyways?
11:54	sirrobert	not for "my $.foo" (at least not in my version of rakudo =)
11:55	moritz	Su-Shee: no, default is ro
11:55	jnthn	defualt is ro. Hm. :)
11:55	jnthn	I think that wants to be the case for the "my" one too but...we don't really have variable traits yet. Unless moritz++ added 'em...
11:56	Su-Shee	ah well, I rarely use instance/class vars anyways.... :) d
11:57	moritz	jnthn: no, I haven't
11:57	jnthn	oh, you did constants...
11:57	moritz	the problem is really that traits work at compile time, but at compile time we only see the entry in the proto lexpad
11:57	moritz	so there's not much we can do in terms of traits that affect the value of a variable
11:58	jnthn	Well, traits are more about the container I geuss
11:58	jnthn	*guess
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12:28	* [Coke]	sees "since the day you enabled the feature" in backlog, and wonders what feature, and if you want it to be more noticed, mentioning someplace other than backscroll is a good idea.
12:29	[Coke]	esp. since feather was rebooted in the past week.
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12:38	FROGGS	is there a way to open pipes?
12:38	[Coke]	jnthn: no worries on the autoviv thing for now; I already worked around that in partcl-nqp there weren't many cases of it.
12:38	FROGGS	my $fh = open( "\| cc -xc -", :w ) doesnt work for me :/
12:38	moritz	FROGGS: I think there's an unspecced adverb to open() that does that
12:39	[Coke]	jnthn, pmichaud: latest stick on partcl-nqp update is issue #53 on nqp, but also: converting PAST to QAST is not straightforward.
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12:39	moritz	FROGGS: search for pipe in src/core/IO.pm in rakudo
12:39	FROGGS	thanks
12:42	jnthn	[Coke]: What are you finding non-straightforward, ooc?
12:42	[Coke]	jnthn: many of the :adverbs are missing.
12:42	[Coke]	lack of docs on both versions makes it hard to say "oh, this is now spelled that way"
12:42	jnthn	Lack of docs is a problem, yes.
12:43	[Coke]	Doesn't help that pmichaud setup most of the original PAST, so I had it handed to me the first time.
12:43	jnthn	Ah
12:43	[Coke]	jnthn: for example, here's one that i just ripped out but probably shouldn't have:
12:43	FROGGS	moritz: this is working: my $fh = open( "cc -xc -", :w, :p )
12:44	[Coke]	QAST::Var.new( :name<lexpad>, :scope<register>, :isdecl ...
12:44	jnthn	:scope<local> :decl<var>
12:44	jnthn	er, with the comma
12:44	jnthn	Problem is that PAST treated parameter as a scope.
12:45	jnthn	Which meant you couldn't have parameters that went into registers.
12:45	jnthn	You were forced to do lexicals
12:45	jnthn	Which ain't always desirable.
12:46	[Coke]	jnthn: thank you.
12:46	[Coke]	what about :viviself(...) ?
12:48	jnthn	That one really did get killed. It also did a couple of distinct things. If you were using it on an isdecl, just do a bind to the thing you're declaring. If you really did want to do some kind of "if it's null" logic per lookup (discouraged unless you must do it), see VarWithFallback
12:49	[Coke]	how to do the bind? :bind<thing> ?
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12:49	jnthn	QAST::Op.new( :op('bind'), ... )
12:49	jnthn	First arg is the QAST::Var, second is the thing to bind
12:50	[Coke]	Thanks.
12:51	[Coke]	what about :hll ?
12:51	jnthn	There's now a QAST::CompUnit that wraps the entire thing to be compiled, and the :hll goes on that.
12:52	jnthn	QAST::CompUnit.new( :hll('tcl'), $top-level-block )
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12:58	Woodi	raiph: just learned today about summarizer and reports and like both :)
13:00	Woodi	but me thinks joins can be filtered out in summary view or maybe displayed in smallest rows ?
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13:01	Woodi	and maybe "navigation links" can use bigger font ?
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13:09	moritz	why would the summary contain joins?
13:09	moritz	just don't add them to the summary :-)
13:25	sirrobert	r: class A { my $.foo; has $.foo is rw; }; A.foo = "bar"; my $a = A.new; $a.foo = "baz"; say $a.foo; say A.foo;
13:25	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«baz␤baz␤»
13:25	sirrobert	Is there a way to have a class version separate from an instance version ?
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13:27	jnthn	By calling them different things? :)
13:28	sirrobert	I'm hoping for something like setting something at the class level (at runtime) as a default for instances. In particular, db config stuff
13:29	jnthn	That's fine, just have a my $.foo-default; has $.foo = $foo-default;
13:29	jnthn	or something
13:29	sirrobert	fair enough
13:31	moritz	(the accessors are just regular methods, which is why you can't have accessors for two attributes of the same name)
13:31	sirrobert	ok, that makes sense =)
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13:57	pmurias	jnthn: what does --vmlibs=perl6_group,perl6_ops do?
13:59	jnthn	pmurias: Ensures that .loadlib directives for the Perl 6 PMCs and dynops are emitted.
13:59	pmurias	does it stop the nqp via compreg from working?
14:00	jnthn	Don't see why it'd do that; they feel quite orthogonal.
14:00	pmurias	jnthn: I get http://pastie.org/4738542
14:01	pmurias	Makefile: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1211092/
14:01	jnthn	bah, I get an Application error when looking at that paste...
14:01	pmurias	jnthn: which one?
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14:03	jnthn	the first one
14:05	yarp	r: my Num @number = <1 2 3 4>; @number[4] = [+] @number;
14:05	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/uqd_5X2XmR:1␤␤»
14:05	yarp	nr: my Num @number = <1 2 3 4>; @number[4] = [+] @number;
14:05	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/00B337Ld2O:1␤␤»
14:05	p6eval	..niecza v21-11-g09989b4: ( no output )
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14:06	yarp	nr: my Num @number = <1 2 3 4>; @number[4] = [+] @number; @number.say;
14:06	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 10␤»
14:06	p6eval	..rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤ in block at /tmp/Vr6pUabaJ7:1␤␤»
14:07	cognominal	jnthn, would be possible to derive a rakudo grammar from HLL::Grammar ? Currently, it is only possible from nqp
14:08	jnthn	No.
14:08	cognominal	one cannot use at once nqp and rakudo pbc?
14:09	jnthn	Well, maybe you can load it, but then the bigger problem is that HLL::Gramamr ultimately derives from NQPCursor and thus NQPMu, and so you'd get NQP match objects, not Perl 6 ones.
14:09	cognominal	ha, thx
14:10	jnthn	We could either:
14:10	jnthn	1) factor this with roles instead
14:10	jnthn	2) make a Perl 6 module with some of the HLL stuff in and put it on modules.perl6.or
14:10	jnthn	*org
14:11	jnthn	I suggest doing it as roles though
14:11	jnthn	A QuoteParsing role, a ExpressionParsing one, etc. Could be quite nice.
14:11	jnthn	pmichaud++ may have other suggestions
14:12	moritz	btw the name conflict between methods in Any and grammar rules really bothers me
14:13	moritz	r: grammar A { token TOP { <tree> }; token tree { a } }; say A.parse('a')
14:13	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'tree'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any:U : Mu %_)␤:(Any:D : Mu %_)␤:(Any:D : &c, Mu %_)␤:(Any:D : Cool $count, Mu %_)␤␤ in method tree at src/gen/CORE.setting:1224␤ in any !reduce at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:582␤ in any !cursor_pass at src/st…
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14:13	moritz	and I wonder why. Isn't A much more specific than Any?
14:13	moritz	r: grammar A { token TOP { <tree> }; token tree { a } }; say A.^mro
14:13	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«A() Grammar() Cursor() Any() Mu()␤»
14:17	jnthn	moritz: The problem is that we ended up with Any in $*ACTIONS
14:17	jnthn	cognominal++ already pointed out this issue once before
14:18	jnthn	So it calls Any.tree as an action method
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14:19	moritz	I wonder if we could set $*ACTIONS to a singleton that either doesn't have any methods, or on which we don't call methods
14:19	pmurias	jnthn: error re paste: http://pastie.org/4738666
14:19	moritz	hm, or maybe a catch-all method that doesn't do any harm
14:20	moritz	doesn't sound very convincing to me though :(
14:23	jnthn	pmurias: That appears when you add the --vmlibs line?
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14:24	jnthn	Can't reproduce that here
14:25	jnthn	nqp -e "pir::compreg__Ps('nqp').compile('say(42)')()"
14:25	jnthn	42
14:25	jnthn	nqp --vmlibs=perl6_group -e "pir::compreg__Ps('nqp').compile('say(42)')()"
14:25	jnthn	42
14:26	pmurias	jnthn: I got confused
14:26	moritz	I could imagine that another process might be having trouble to compreg('nqp') without loading those libs first, no?
14:26	pmurias	yes, that is likely what's happening
14:27	jnthn	moritz: But if this is NQP... :)
14:27	moritz	but then I don't think that NQP doesn't emit the necessary compreg__SP call to allow that in first place
14:27	jnthn	moritz: but yeah, there's an issue here in that compreg is so global it oversteps the global boundary...
14:27	jnthn	moritz: It does :)
14:27	moritz	it does?
14:28	moritz	where?
14:28	jnthn	$nqpcomp.language('nqp');
14:28	jnthn	.language calls compreg
14:29	moritz	but that only happens if you call that method, no?
14:29	moritz	I mean, if I load the compiled NQP .pir file, it's not called, is it?
14:29	masak	oh hai, #perl6
14:29	moritz	so I can use compreg from within an nqp process
14:30	moritz	but I can't use it load the compiler from another process that loads NQP.pbc
14:30	moritz	oh hai masak
14:30	FROGGS	hi masak
14:31		benabik joined #perl6
14:32		Celelibi joined #perl6
14:33	* masak	been teaching git today :)
14:34	jnthn	moritz: ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, that's an issue
14:34		spider-mario joined #perl6
14:37	sirrobert	r: class A { has $.foo; submethod BUILD { say "FOO: $!foo"; } }; say A.new(foo => 'bar');
14:37	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in submethod BUILD at /tmp/IdJh1JxoqR:1␤␤FOO: ␤A.new(foo => Any)␤»
14:37	tadzik	ohhai
14:37	sirrobert	some day I'll grok build... =) How can I access $!foo with value "bar" in this build?
14:37	Su-Shee	masak: I wish git would make its interface as nice and clean as darcs' made theirs.
14:37	jnthn	sirrobert: BUILD runs before any defaults are applied
14:38	jnthn	sirrobert: You need to take :$foo as an argument in the BUILD
14:38	sirrobert	ahhhh ok, thanks
14:38	sirrobert	I did something like that but wrong syntax
14:38	jnthn	ah :)
14:38	masak	Su-Shee: git's interface is its weak spot, yes.
14:39	sirrobert	is there anything that runs after defaults are applied?
14:40	moritz	I don't think so
14:40	sirrobert	ok, thanks
14:40	moritz	note that if you write
14:40	moritz	submethod BUILD(:$!foo) { }
14:40	moritz	then it will fill in the attribute at the time that BUILD is called
14:40	moritz	(ie before the body of BUILD is run)
14:41	moritz	see also: http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects#Object+Construction
14:44	[Coke]	jnthn: thanks for the pointers. I will fixup all that after $DAYJOB and see what's left.
14:44	jnthn	[Coke]: you're welcome :)
14:48		cognominal joined #perl6
14:49	kresike	bye folks
14:51		yarp joined #perl6
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15:01		adu joined #perl6
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15:05	felher	Is the callsame/nextsame/... stuff for methods borrowed from lisp?
15:05	* moritz	has no idea
15:06	* jnthn	would have to reach for AMOP to remember how similar their factoring of it is
15:08	felher	Hm, AMOP sounds interesting :)
15:08	* moritz	would love some more (especially non-lispy) literature on MOPs
15:09	jnthn	Yeah, somebody should totally write some... :)
15:09	* jnthn	volunteers the guy who did 6mo...oh, wait...darn :)
15:09	felher	:P
15:10		stopbit joined #perl6
15:11	jnthn	felher: AMOP is a nice read, if you can pretend to know LISP while you read it :)
15:11	masak	6mo is so metacircular that even the guy who wrote it ends up pointing to himself :P
15:11	jnthn	I managed to pretend well enough to follow what was going on :)
15:11	masak	also, this line of jokes is so metacircular it ends up being mostly about itself, too. :P
15:12	* masak	gets sucked into a vortex of self-reference!
15:12	tadzik	you put yourself in it yourself!
15:12	tadzik	er, I mean,
15:12	jnthn	That must drive one loopy...
15:13	* felher	adds AMOP to his to-read-queue
15:13	sirrobert	so, I have a bit of code from Config::INI. There's a method that gets run twice. The first time, Config::INI::parse_file(...) works fine. The second time it complains "Could not find symbol 'Config::INI::&parse_file'. What would cause that?
15:13	sirrobert	err a bit of code that uses Config::INI
15:13	moritz	missing 'use' statement?
15:13	moritz	or the precompilation bug?
15:13	sirrobert	no, it works the first time (so it's being used and parse_file works)
15:14	sirrobert	I'm not precompiling
15:14	tadzik	uh-oh, that'
15:14	tadzik	s my module :P
15:14	sirrobert	let me see if I can put together a gist that reproduces it ...
15:14	moritz	that would be helpful, yes
15:14	sirrobert	tadzik: it doesn't "feel" like a problem with Config::INI ... =)
15:14	tadzik	good :)
15:14	* tadzik	decomutees
15:16	masak	tadzik: the best moment of this summer was when I realized that I could put the helmet in the helmet, and it would just disappear from the room, because it was now hidden in itself.
15:16	moritz	woah, carving out a piece of reality into a circulary graph!
15:17	FROGGS	masak: I've got the key from "the lost room" at home, I can put these things there if I dont need them anymore ;o)
15:17		kaare_ joined #perl6
15:18	FROGGS	but its not that cool anyway
15:19	moritz	wow, I've got an email with subject 'Perl6 Help', and before opening it I thought "if you want help, go to the mailing lists or IRC". Then I opened it, and found that it was from somebody who actually wants to help us :-)
15:19		ivan``_ joined #perl6
15:19	FROGGS	heh
15:19	FROGGS	BANG! surprise!
15:20	sirrobert	=)
15:21	FROGGS	and? where is he or she?
15:21	PerlJam	moritz: "Hi, I'm an independantly wealthy person who happens to love the direction Perl 6 is going; how do I contribute some $$$ to the Perl 6 effort?"
15:21	PerlJam	</dream>
15:22	moritz	PerlJam: nah, "just" offering some proof-reading / copy editing of documentation for now
15:22	skids	I'd settle for "I'm an independently wealthy person"
15:22		sqirrel joined #perl6
15:22	PerlJam	heh, I was just about to write: more likely, "I can write, Perl 6 needs docs, how can I help?"
15:27	masak	"I took the liberty of finishing Perl 6 last Thursday between laundry and dinner. Merry Christmas!"
15:27	daxim	I'm so going to quote you out of context
15:28	GlitchMr	https://gist.github.com/3737998
15:28	GlitchMr	wow, I've made "serious" PHP code
15:29	masak	daxim: if you quote me, remember to use two layers of quotes.
15:29	daxim	»_«
15:31	daxim	did you design this, GlitchMr?
15:31	GlitchMr	perl6: print ｢\ // welcome \\ to // the \\ world /｣
15:31	p6eval	rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/YegGFWLqdf:1␤»
15:31	p6eval	..niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUTÂ«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unsupported use of bare 'print'; in Perl 6 please use .print if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/I2aaIhloJI line 1:â�¤------> [32mprint[33mâ��[31m ï½¢\ // welcome \\ to // the \\ world /ï½£[0mâ�¤â�¤Confuâ€¦
15:31	GlitchMr	daxim: yes
15:31	PerlJam	GlitchMr: next, get rid of the named function requirement :)
15:31	GlitchMr	std: print ｢\ // welcome \\ to // the \\ world /｣
15:31	p6eval	std b842bb3: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
15:31	daxim	I'd spell whatever - any
15:32	brrt	GlitchMr: yay kill php!
15:32	GlitchMr	Actually, 'off-rails.php' code itself is better
15:32	GlitchMr	That was just example
15:32	GlitchMr	https://gist.github.com/3738030
15:34	PerlJam	GlitchMr: you've got to have the function that handles the dispatch called "crazy_train"
15:37	GlitchMr	Hmmm... I've feeling I could make this more awesome
15:44		M_o_C joined #perl6
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15:59	sirrobert	ha
15:59	GlitchMr	https://gist.github.com/3738030
15:59	sirrobert	I isolated the problem... making a gist now
16:00	GlitchMr	Now it looks like average PHP code, doesn't it?
16:00	sirrobert	oohhhh... oneupsgistship, eh?
16:00	sirrobert	GlitchMr: Yep, looks phpish =)
16:01	GlitchMr	I even put "die or die" because normal "exit" is boring :-)
16:01	sirrobert	What's interesting about the file?
16:03	GlitchMr	Now, I should push this to GitHub
16:06	sirrobert	ok! https://gist.github.com/3738213 shows the (weird) error I'm getting
16:06	sirrobert	I think it's a bug in 'require'
16:07	jnthn	What's in Loader?
16:07	jnthn	But yeah, weird.
16:08	PerlJam	.oO( something that stomps on Config::INI::parse_file )
16:09	sirrobert	nothing is in Loader
16:09	sirrobert	or you can put junk in it... it doesn't really matter
16:09	sirrobert	the point is, "requiring" any file causes Config::INI::parse_file to break
16:10		am0c joined #perl6
16:11	jnthn	oh, hmmmm
16:11	GlitchMr	https://gist.github.com/3738233
16:11	GlitchMr	I hope this README is realistic
16:16	daxim	it's terrible
16:16	daxim	seriously, this needs so much improvement I don't know where to start the critique
16:17	GlitchMr	that's the point
16:17	GlitchMr	Also, https://github.com/GlitchMr/php-off-the-rails
16:18	tadzik	I don't quite see why are you doing this :)
16:19	GlitchMr	To get PHP badge on Coderwall... perhaps?
16:19	daxim	no, I'm saying your English writing sucks donkey balls and this reflects poorly on your code crafting
16:19	daxim	do you want help?
16:19	tadzik	I'd be ashamed of such thing
16:19	GlitchMr	But it works!
16:19	GlitchMr	I mean, it works with simple "Hello, world!" programs
16:20	daxim	answer me
16:21	GlitchMr	No
16:21	GlitchMr	I know that my English sucks
16:21	jnthn	sirrobert: golfed it
16:21	sirrobert	looking (thanks)
16:22	jnthn	sirrobert: And think I found the fail
16:23	GlitchMr	If you would like to see anything more serious I've made, I would look into my JavaScript, Perl 6 or AWK code
16:24	GlitchMr	(too bad that GitHub doesn't recognize AWK)
16:24	timotimo	GlitchMr: i don't know php any more. what does your thingie do? :\
16:24	GlitchMr	timotimo: It works like Dancer, except it's worse
16:25	timotimo	so it's a small web framework?
16:26	timotimo	never tried dancer before
16:26	GlitchMr	Well, yes
16:26	GlitchMr	I can do stuff like
16:26	GlitchMr	get('/', function () { echo 'Hello, world!' })
16:26		rhr joined #perl6
16:26	GlitchMr	And it shows "Hello, world!" on main page of site
16:27		benabik joined #perl6
16:28	sirrobert	jnthn: back (impromptu meeting). What's the skinny?
16:28	timotimo	mhm, that reminds me of the microframeworks they have in the python world
16:28	jnthn	sirrobert: Seems some mess in handling of GLOBAL
16:29	sirrobert	hm ok. Can I help? =)
16:29	jnthn	sirrobert: I think I can see what needs fixing.
16:29	sirrobert	jnthn: cool, thanks-- I have a workaround in place in the meantime... but it's ugly =)
16:30	GlitchMr	http://glitchmr.github.com/php-off-the-rails/
16:30	GlitchMr	:-)
16:30	jnthn	yeah, I can patch the issue this evening, I think
16:30	sirrobert	(not -- in the decrement sense =)
16:33	jnthn	sirrobert: Got a fix locally. spectesting
16:33	sirrobert	cool, thanks
16:34	sirrobert	jnthn++
16:34	jnthn	One of those "how did we not spot this before" things...
16:34		flightrecorder joined #perl6
16:34		FROGGS joined #perl6
16:35	FROGGS	hi there
16:36	jnthn	hi FROGGS
16:38	dalek	rakudo/nom: ec413ef \| jnthn++ \| src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.pm:
16:38	dalek	rakudo/nom: Fix busted GLOBAL preservation code.
16:38	dalek	rakudo/nom:
16:38	dalek	rakudo/nom: Fixes a bug whereby require would clobber GLOBAL, discovered by
16:38	dalek	rakudo/nom: sirrobert++.
16:38	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ec413efe4f
16:38	dalek	roast: efbc8d7 \| jnthn++ \| S11-modules/require.t:
16:38	dalek	roast: Test for require / GLOBAL.
16:38	dalek	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/efbc8d7451
16:44		ajoe joined #perl6
16:45	daxim	https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=114946
16:45	PerlJam	jnthn: What's the difference between get_hll_global and get_root_global ?
16:46		ajoe joined #perl6
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16:46		kaare__ joined #perl6
16:46	jnthn	PerlJam: Where it looks
16:46	PerlJam	jnthn: I ask because there's also a get_hll_global on line 273 of ModuleLoader.pm that I wonder if it also shouldn't be changed.
16:46	jnthn	PerlJam: We were preserving GLOBAL in NQP land
16:49	jnthn	PerlJam: er...yes
16:50	* jnthn	updates it and spectests again
16:51	jnthn	daxim: On that ticket, I'm not sure the point is optimizability so much as it is stopping people changing the arguments and accidentally updating things in the caller, unless that's specifically declared as being the intent.
16:53	daxim	the topic is currently under discussion on p5p, you should add your comment to the ticket
16:54	moritz	nr: sub f($x) { $x := 5; say $x }; f(42)
16:54	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«5␤»
16:54	p6eval	..rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/RzWynDDFS4:1␤»
16:59		wk_ joined #perl6
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17:17	jnthn	dalek: done so
17:18	jnthn	er, daxim^^
17:18	jnthn	dinner &
17:23		REPLeffect joined #perl6
17:30	FROGGS	are here any perl6 windows ppl?
17:30	FROGGS	is there something I need to care about when installing rakudo?
17:36		tgt joined #perl6
17:38	[Coke]	#perl6 seems to like reddit, neh?
17:44		thou joined #perl6
17:48	moritz	it's a love/hate relationship, I think :-)
17:53	dalek	glitchmr.github.com: 0cd0e94 \| GlitchMr++ \| _posts/2012-09-16-perl-6-changes-2012W37.md:
17:53	dalek	glitchmr.github.com: The message is actually more detailed - instead of "value" it shows variable name.
17:53	dalek	glitchmr.github.com: review: https://github.com/GlitchMr/glitchmr.github.com/commit/0cd0e94f08
17:54	dalek	glitchmr.github.com: 6973c33 \| GlitchMr++ \| _includes/footer.html:
17:54	dalek	glitchmr.github.com: Add my realname to footer
17:54	dalek	glitchmr.github.com: review: https://github.com/GlitchMr/glitchmr.github.com/commit/6973c33cb8
17:58	GlitchMr	http://glitchmr.github.com/perl-6-changes-2012W37.html
17:59	GlitchMr	I have feeling that Disqus is broken
17:59	GlitchMr	It shows "2 comments" but I only see one
17:59	GlitchMr	Second one is my comment
18:01	GlitchMr	Perhaps they have delays or something
18:12		daniel-s__ joined #perl6
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18:18	sisar	can someone point out what the problem is: https://gist.github.com/3738874 ? I'm unable to add a path to $PATH using export in Cygwin.
18:19	PerlJam	sisar: bogus (invisible) characters at the start of your command?
18:20	GlitchMr	eval: print "\302\226"
18:20	buubot_backup	GlitchMr: Â1
18:20	GlitchMr	eval: "\302\226"
18:20	buubot_backup	GlitchMr: Â
18:20	GlitchMr	that... makes sense
18:21	sisar	PerlJam: yes. I had just copy-pasted that from GlitchMr++'s page (http://glitchmr.github.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.html). Typing by hand solved it. Thanks.
18:22		leont left #perl6
18:23	GlitchMr	Wait... invisible characters on my page?
18:23	GlitchMr	That doesn't sound right
18:24	PerlJam	GlitchMr: It probably isn't on your page. I just tried to reproduce by cut-n-paste and couldn't
18:24	GlitchMr	What is your browser?
18:24	PerlJam	I'm on chrome
18:24	sisar	GlitchMr: Firefox, 15.0
18:25	sisar	PerlJam: i selected that line by triple-click.
18:25	sisar	*triple-left-click
18:25	GlitchMr	Weird, it works for me
18:26	GlitchMr	Also Firefox 15.0, triple left click
18:26	GlitchMr	(well, I use Opera as my main browser, but other browsers are useful for testing stuff)
18:26	sisar	GlitchMr: maybe Cygwin has some problme ?
18:26	GlitchMr	Well, invisible characters wouldn't appear from nowhere
18:26	PerlJam	sisar: maybe you had some invisible stuff on the line prior to pasting? Can you reproduce?
18:27	GlitchMr	But I'm on Linux, so perhaps it's something specific to Windows version of Firefox
18:27	sisar	PerlJam: yes, i can reproduce consistently.
18:27	PerlJam	could be.
18:27	sirrobert	exit
18:27	sirrobert	woops =)
18:29	GlitchMr	glitchmrstrawberry ~/g/g/_posts> file 2012-09-15-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.md
18:29	GlitchMr	2012-09-15-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.md: ASCII text
18:29	GlitchMr	Interesting...
18:30	GlitchMr	It could be postprocessing, except when using hex editor I don't see anything strange near `export` command.
18:33	sisar	GlitchMr: after I have exported, how do make the changes to $PATH permanent ? Just opening and closing the Cygwin terminal does not help.
18:33	GlitchMr	Modify .bashrc?
18:33	GlitchMr	I guess
18:34	GlitchMr	It should be there
18:34	GlitchMr	Or... oh, you're on Windows
18:34	GlitchMr	Enter into Control Panel and modify system env variables
18:34	moritz	cygwin probably reads a .bashrc or _bashrc
18:34	sisar	GlitchMr: Cygwin has its own .bashrc. I'll try modifying that.
18:35	GlitchMr	sisar: or you may try http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310519
18:36	* jnthn	back
18:37	GlitchMr	glitchmrstrawberry ~/g/g/_site> perl -C -E 'while ($_ = getc) { say ord if $_ gt "\x7E" }' < how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.html
18:37	GlitchMr	960
18:37	GlitchMr	960
18:37	dalek	rakudo/nom: 43ceae0 \| jnthn++ \| src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.pm:
18:37	dalek	rakudo/nom: Also fix setting loading; PerlJam++.
18:37	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/43ceae0282
18:37	GlitchMr	That would be two pi symbols
18:37	* sisar	has to go to all this trouble to run perl6 on windows because Ubuntu just won't dual boot on my new Ultrabook :/
18:38	jnthn	sisar: Did you use the MSI, or are you doing source builds?
18:38	GlitchMr	Except... that wouldn't make sense because it also should find "☺"
18:38	sisar	jnthn: source builds
18:39	jnthn	OK. Was just asking in case the reaction was, "oh, there's an MSI?" :)
18:40		stopbit joined #perl6
18:40	GlitchMr	glitchmrstrawberry ~/g/g/_site> perl -CSDL -0nE 'for (split //) {say ord if $_ gt "\x7E"}' how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.html
18:40	GlitchMr	960
18:40	GlitchMr	960
18:40	GlitchMr	9786
18:40	GlitchMr	... no invisible characters
18:40	GlitchMr	(except for spaces and linebreaks)
18:41	sisar	GlitchMr: its ok. Don't fret over it :-)
18:41	GlitchMr	:-)
18:42	GlitchMr	I've no idea why it happens, but it's not my site
18:42	GlitchMr	(I like having static HTML pages)
18:42	sisar	jnthn: lets say I install Rakudo using .msi. But then i will have to use the Windows Command prompt right ? Which sucks, btw. Or is there a better command shell for Windows ?
18:43	GlitchMr	sisar: yes, you can download git
18:43	GlitchMr	It includes bash
18:43	GlitchMr	This thing (http://msysgit.github.com/) includes bash
18:43	jnthn	sisar: You can use anything that will invoke the perl6.exe :)
18:43	sisar	jnthn: what do u use ?
18:43	sisar	cmd.exe ?
18:43	GlitchMr	I mean, "msysGit", not so called "Git for Windows"
18:44	jnthn	sisar: yes
18:44	jnthn	sisar: I don't really recommend it :P
18:44	sisar	:-)
18:44	GlitchMr	I have used bash.exe
18:44	GlitchMr	When I was using Windows
18:45	jnthn	I can run Rakudo just fine from the bash included with msysGit, anyways.
18:45	GlitchMr	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63913412/bytheway.png
18:45	jnthn	.oO( maybe I should switch to using that more often...if only my fingers can unlearn what they're used to... )
18:45	GlitchMr	I've found this screenshot
18:46	GlitchMr	It's rather old, but it shows bash from msysgit
18:46	GlitchMr	(just a word of warning - msysgit includes perl.exe - I would remove it and use some real Perl (such as Strawberry Perl))
18:46	GlitchMr	(well, ok, that Perl is real too, but it's old - 5.8)
18:47		sirrobert joined #perl6
18:47	GlitchMr	o/
18:49	pmichaud	good afternoon, #perl6
18:49	tadzik	god evening #perl6
18:50	jnthn	afternoon, pmichaud :)
18:51	* pmichaud	does test builds of rakudo+nqp on latest parrot
18:52	GlitchMr	glitchmrstrawberry:~$ `echo echo 42`
18:52	GlitchMr	42
18:52	jnthn	ooh, I should re-test the latest Parrot too...
18:52	GlitchMr	Who needs eval when you have backticks ;-)
18:52	pmichaud	I'm testing both linux and win32 (strawberry/gmake)
18:52	jnthn	win32/msvc here
18:52	pmichaud	we could use a msv.... right :-)
18:52	pmichaud	also a 64-bit test.
18:53	pmichaud	(my windows is 32 bit)
18:53	jnthn	I'm on 64-bit here
18:57	jnthn	yeah, it built here today
18:57	* jnthn	installs it and builds an NQP and Rakudo against it.
19:04	jnthn	pmichaud: Builds went fine.
19:04		alester joined #perl6
19:06	pmichaud	builds seem to be okay here too... spectesting
19:06	pmichaud	I get one fail under linux
19:07	pmichaud	t/spec/S02-types/declare.rakudo (Wstat: 256 Tests: 40 Failed: 0)
19:07	jnthn	oh, that's not just me
19:07	pmichaud	Parse errors: Bad plan. You planned 79 tests but ran 40.
19:07		yarp joined #perl6
19:08	pmichaud	...we don't have anyone scheduled for this month's release?
19:08	jnthn	r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; isa_ok($paxa,KeySet );
19:08	p6eval	rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«Parameter '' requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤ in submethod perl at src/gen/CORE.setting:11396␤ in sub isa_ok at lib/Test.pm:151␤ in block at /tmp/h24rarP9vl:1␤␤»
19:09	jnthn	wtf
19:10	jnthn	r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; say $paxa
19:10	p6eval	rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«Parameter '' requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤ in submethod gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:11395␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7173␤ in block at /tmp/RuoSzyOCb3:1␤␤»
19:10	jnthn	r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; say $paxa.WHAT
19:10	p6eval	rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«Parameter '' requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤ in submethod gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:11395␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7173␤ in block at /tmp/hJI7SFasBs:1␤␤»
19:10	jnthn	r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; say $paxa.^name
19:10	p6eval	rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«KeySet␤»
19:10		docdoctor joined #perl6
19:12	jnthn	oh...
19:12	jnthn	commit de96bae506667ba3e639dcddbcb81bdb08fda955 Unfudge KeySet test for Rakudo
19:12	jnthn	GlitchMr: ^^ seems to have been a wrong unfudge?
19:13	GlitchMr	> KeySet.new
19:13	GlitchMr	keyset()
19:13	GlitchMr	huh?
19:13	GlitchMr	> my KeySet $fail = KeySet.new
19:13	masak	nr: keyset(); say "alive"
19:13	jnthn	pmichaud: Looks like an unfudging of a still failing test rather than a regression
19:13	GlitchMr	keyset()
19:13	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUTÂ«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤ 'keyset' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1435 (die @ 5) â�¤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) â�¤ at /hâ€¦
19:13	p6eval	..rakudo 43ceae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&keyset' called (line 1)␤»
19:13	jnthn	GlitchMr: Try just say KeySet
19:14	GlitchMr	This appears to be Rakudo bug
19:14	pmichaud	jnthn: wfm. I'm getting fails in the windows build.
19:14	pmichaud	(doesn't look like anything major.)
19:14	jnthn	pmichaud: Mostly what's left is line endings issues
19:14	jnthn	pmichaud: I cleared up some of them this week.
19:14	GlitchMr	KeySet type is implemented, isn't it?
19:14	jnthn	Yeah
19:14	jnthn	submethod gist(Any:D $ : --> Str) { "keyset({ %!elems.keys».gist.join(', ') })" }
19:15	jnthn	Why is that a submethod rather than a multi method like all the other gist methods?
19:15	dalek	panda: 5e4ee61 \| (Tobias Leich)++ \| bin/panda.bat:
19:15	dalek	panda: batch wrapper for windows guys
19:15	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/5e4ee61bc4
19:15	dalek	panda: 56149b2 \| tadzik++ \| bin/panda.bat:
19:15	dalek	panda: Merge pull request #17 from FROGGS/master
19:15	dalek	panda:
19:15	dalek	panda: added bin/panda.bat
19:15	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/56149b23b1
19:15	tadzik	FROGGS++
19:15	FROGGS	a bitch rapper, err batch wrapper
19:16		brrt joined #perl6
19:16	tadzik	:P
19:17	FROGGS	but it doesnt fetch
19:17	FROGGS	==> Fetching File::Spec
19:17	FROGGS	Too many arguments.
19:17	tadzik	:\|
19:17	FROGGS	so there will be another pull request in a minute
19:17	FROGGS	:o)
19:18	tadzik	you fix it, I don't have a windows env :P
19:18	tadzik	okay :)
19:18	jnthn	pmichaud: Seeing if I can fix the bug rather than re-fudge the test :)
19:19	pmichaud	jnthn: I'm fine with either solution. :)
19:20	jnthn	Got a patch here, spectesting it to make sure nothing else breaks :)
19:21		brrt left #perl6
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: 87eb6c8 \| jnthn++ \| src/core/NQPRoutine.pm:
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: Stub in an NQPRegex type.
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr:
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: This will serve as the code object for regexes, rules and tokens, and
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: will come to hold the caps, NFA, etc.
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/87eb6c88c2
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: b24e129 \| jnthn++ \| src/NQP/World.pm:
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: Enable create_code to creates code object types besides NQPRoutine.
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b24e12996b
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: 024c643 \| jnthn++ \| src/NQP/Actions.pm:
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: Start creating regexes as NQPRegex.
19:22	dalek	nqp/kill-nqpattr: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/024c643a40
19:25	FROGGS	how do I get a .pir out of a .pm again?
19:25	dalek	rakudo/nom: 690dadc \| jnthn++ \| src/core/Set.pm:
19:25	dalek	rakudo/nom: Fix 'say KeySet'.
19:25	dalek	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/690dadc9cc
19:25	jnthn	perl6 --target=pir --output=Foo.pir Foo.pm
19:25	FROGGS	thanks
19:25	jnthn	pmichaud: That should do it.
19:26	pmichaud	jnthn++
19:27	jnthn	pmichaud: Planning to eliminate nqpattr, but not before this month's releases.
19:28	pmichaud	jnthn: that sounds excellent to me
19:28	jnthn	Then we'll be down to just one cheat. :)
19:29	pmichaud	when we no longer cheat, will we still be able to play this game? ;-)
19:30	jnthn	Don't worry, I'm only counting the cheats that are actually in src/cheats :P
19:30	pmichaud	so, we don't count the cheats where we cheat on calling them cheats
19:31	jnthn	Right. We're cheating at cheating.
19:31	jnthn	Which is fine as we don't get caught not getting caught.
19:31	pmichaud	I have a fairly long list of win fails
19:32	pmichaud	https://gist.github.com/3739287
19:35	tadzik	jnthn: do you need some testing on kill-nqpattr?
19:35	tadzik	I'm rebuilding the toolchain anyway
19:35		snearch joined #perl6
19:36	jnthn	tadzik: oh, not for a good while yet
19:36	tadzik	okay
19:36	jnthn	tadzik: This branch will probably take some time...I sure won't get through it today
19:36	jnthn	pmichaud: Hmm...that's a couple more than I get
19:36	tadzik	okay, sure
19:37	pmichaud	I'm afk, kid pickup
19:39	sorear	good * #perl6
19:39	tadzik	hi sorear
19:40	masak	sorear! \o/
19:50	FROGGS	damn it, there is no prove on windows
19:50	tadzik	ah
19:50	GlitchMr	FROGGS: do you have Perl 5 installed?
19:50	tadzik	I was wondering whether it'd be better to use parrot-prove
19:50	FROGGS	who can I bug to have stuff in rakudo/bin?
19:50	jnthn	There...there isn't? :)
19:50	GlitchMr	prove is part of Perl 5
19:50	FROGGS	GlitchMr: I have several, but not in PATH right now, shouldnt it work without perl5?
19:51	GlitchMr	Add prove to PATH and it should be there
19:51	FROGGS	thats not the point
19:51	tadzik	FROGGS: obtw, we'll need some Test Harness in Perl 6 sooner or later :)
19:51	GlitchMr	glitchmrstrawberry ~/g/perl6-Text-Abbrev> prove -eperl6
19:51	GlitchMr	t/00-basic.t .. ok
19:51	GlitchMr	All tests successful.
19:52	GlitchMr	It just works!
19:52	FROGGS	GlitchMr: IMO it would make sense that rakudo comes with its own prove
19:52	masak	(Nicholas Clark)++ # https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=114946
19:53	GlitchMr	Perhaps somebody could make App::Prove or something
19:53	FROGGS	tadzik: I believe thats to heavy for me to do
19:53	GlitchMr	But that isn't that important - Perl 5's prove works
19:55	jnthn	masak: aye, interesting ticket
19:55	jnthn	Two approaches enter. Which will leave? :)
19:55	masak	ULTIMATE IMPLEMENTOR SMACKDOWN
19:56	jnthn	That sounds painful :P
19:56	masak	it's for the benefit of the users!
19:56	tadzik	FROGGS: dang. That means I'll have to ;)
19:56	tadzik	...try
19:56	FROGGS	meh
19:56	FROGGS	can't we get schwern to do it?
19:57	tadzik	hehe
19:59	pmichaud	jnthn: (#114946) .... ummm, I don't remember Rakudo working the way it appears to be working now.
19:59	pmichaud	(snapshot semantics)
19:59	jnthn	pmichaud: It's been that way ever since nom, when we eliminated chains of containers.
19:59	pmichaud	I don't remember eliminating chains of containers, either.
20:00	masak	...which was a big improvement, IIRC.
20:00	pmichaud	I'm guessing that happened during my absence.
20:00	jnthn	I...thought we discussed the nom container model and agreed on it, way back?
20:00		cognominal joined #perl6
20:01	jnthn	I'm fairly sure there was some discussion on this.
20:01	pmichaud	I don't remember eliminating the chaining effect for ::=, no.
20:02	jnthn	:/
20:02	jnthn	Well, clearly the current model is good enough to go a year without anybody noticing anything amiss.
20:02	pmichaud	we even had spectests for the previous model
20:04	pmichaud	what does niecza think?
20:04		docdoctor joined #perl6
20:04	pmichaud	n: my $x = 3; sub abc() { $x = 4; }; sub def($y) { say $y; abc(); say $y; }; def($x); say $x;
20:04	p6eval	niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«3␤3␤4␤»
20:04	pmichaud	okay, niecza agrees with the current model.
20:05	jnthn	rn: my $x = 3; sub abc() { $x = 4; }; sub def($y) { say $y; abc(); say $y; }; def($x); say $x;
20:05	p6eval	rakudo 43ceae, niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«3␤3␤4␤»
20:05	pmichaud	r: my $x = 3; sub abc() { $x = 4; }; sub def(\y) { say y; abc(); say y; }; def($x); say $x;
20:05	p6eval	rakudo 43ceae: OUTPUT«3␤4␤4␤»
20:06	pmichaud	well, if rakudo and niecza both agree, I think I'm okay with the new semantic. I'm just surprised by the change, is all.
20:06	jnthn	nod
20:06	pmichaud	the spec might need to be clarified on this point, though.
20:07	* jnthn	will wait and see what TimToady++ has to say
20:08	pmichaud	in particular, "Parameters and arguments" in S06 leads off with "By default, all parameters are readonly aliases to their corresponding arguments--the parameter is just another name for the original argument, but the argument can't be modified through it."
20:08	jnthn	Yeah, the current model contradicts that.
20:09	masak	hm, wow. that doesn't sound like pass-by-value to me.
20:09	pmichaud	right, it's not.
20:09	pmichaud	as I said, that's why the change surprises me. :)
20:09	jnthn	If we have to do that, I'd rather find a way to track non-modifiability that doesn't involve multi-leve containers.
20:09	jnthn	*level
20:09	pmichaud	for readonly I don't think we need multi-level.
20:09	jnthn	For readonly we'd better be able to statically analyze a bunch of cases.
20:09	pmichaud	i.e., only add a container if the argument is rw
20:10	jnthn	Well, then we gotta be careful we don't get things bound into $foo that will flatten.
20:10	jnthn	Unless the model we have there makes that a non-issue.
20:11	pmichaud	it's still an issue but might end up not being one
20:11	jnthn	OK
20:11	pmichaud	the other possibility is for readonly parameters to collapse any chains they find
20:12	pmichaud	although that might be tricky as well.
20:12	jnthn	Well, yeah
20:12	jnthn	We get a lot of conceptual simplicity out of knowing it's 1-deep
20:13	pmichaud	anyway, I suspect that technically speaking, RT #114946 is a legitimate bug per the spec, so either the spec has to change or the implementation does.
20:13	jnthn	Agree
20:14	* TimToady	still would like to see an ownership or capability model of writing such that passing an item out of a domain automatically defaults to readonly
20:14	dalek	panda: 6b188a2 \| (Tobias Leich)++ \| lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:
20:14	dalek	panda: quote dest dir
20:14	dalek	panda:
20:14	dalek	panda: There can be spaces in path like in the default directory under windows. HOME under windows is `C:\Documents and Settings\...`
20:14	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/6b188a2c27
20:14	dalek	panda: 978dec0 \| tadzik++ \| lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:
20:14	dalek	panda: Merge pull request #18 from FROGGS/master
20:14	dalek	panda:
20:14	dalek	panda: Quoting $dest dir
20:14	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/978dec0a7f
20:14	tadzik	FROGGS: are you developing on windowse usually?
20:14	jnthn	TimToady: How would the case discussed in the ticket work out with that, ooc?
20:15	pmichaud	TimToady: ah yes, I remember that discussion now. I need to think on that one a bit more.
20:15	TimToady	I would need to look at it, but am a bit distracted at the moment...
20:15	jnthn	no hurry :)
20:15	pmichaud	yeah, I need to fold the yapc::eu discussions into my mental model a bit.
20:16	pmichaud	I remember the outlines of the ownership model we discussed; I just need to follow the ramifications a bit further.
20:18	pmichaud	essentially the idea was to eliminate the rw flag altogether in favor of a "who owns (i.e. can write to) this thing" model.
20:18	sorear	this ties into the question of how we're ever going to handle readonly aggregates
20:19	jnthn	bbi10
20:19	* sorear	will wait for pmichaud to understand the capability model before doing anything with it
20:19	pmichaud	sorear: that seems very reasonable; it'll undoubtedly require some negotiated exploring here :)
20:19	pmichaud	I'm afk also for a while
20:19		cognominal joined #perl6
20:20	FROGGS	tadzik: last pull request for today ;o)
20:20	pmichaud	between europe trip and local stuff, my office is a disaster that needs cleaning + organizing
20:20	pmichaud	it's lowering my productivity by a noticeable amount
20:20	FROGGS	tadzik: I used to, but since a year ore more I'm on linux, but still have a few VMs for testing
20:22	tadzik	nice
20:22	FROGGS	its good to have these things, otherwise I wouldnt be able to test File::Spec right
20:22	FROGGS	I have Mac OSX and several BSD's too
20:25	dalek	panda: 7fce5bc \| (Tobias Leich)++ \| bin/panda.bat:
20:25	dalek	panda: using absolute path to original panda script file
20:25	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/7fce5bcb8f
20:25	dalek	panda: 50c4156 \| (Tobias Leich)++ \| lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:
20:25	dalek	panda: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:FROGGS/panda
20:25	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/50c4156efd
20:25	dalek	panda: 2db413d \| tadzik++ \| bin/panda.bat:
20:25	dalek	panda: Merge pull request #19 from FROGGS/master
20:25	dalek	panda:
20:25	dalek	panda: Using absolute path to panda script
20:25	dalek	panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/2db413dc31
20:25	tadzik	FROGGS++ on hacking spree :)
20:27	FROGGS	btw, panda should make bat files too when copying stuff to bin on windows
20:27	tadzik	hm
20:27	FROGGS	in perl5 there is a pl2bat
20:28	tadzik	probably, yes
20:28		kst joined #perl6
20:28	FROGGS	I mean, its not that important right now since there are not that many modules carrying stuff in bin around
20:29	tadzik	we'll need that eventually
20:40		benabik joined #perl6
20:42	* tadzik	sleeps. Good night #perl6
20:43	FROGGS	gnight tadzik
20:43	felher	night tadzik
20:46		cognominal joined #perl6
20:48		orafu joined #perl6
20:53	masak	good knight o tadziku.
20:54		mucker joined #perl6
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21:29	pmurias	.perl doesn't print out private attributes?
21:31	jnthn	No, by design
21:31	jnthn	(see long p6l discussion for more :))
21:32	pmurias	how can I print out them?
21:32	jnthn	Use the MOP
21:32	jnthn	.^attributes gives you attribute meta-objects, and you can call .get_value and pass in the object
21:33	pmurias	that's extremly annoying
21:33	jnthn	It's meant to be.
21:34	pmurias	and shouldn't .gist print out them?
21:34	jnthn	No.
21:34	jnthn	(We've already been there, and switched to keeping private things private.)
21:35	sorear	I think Damian even wanted to do away with get_value
21:36	pmurias	jnthn: where can I find the perl6 language thread?
21:36	jnthn	sorear: I think so
21:37	jnthn	pmurias: I forget the subject, and I don't know off hand where the best place to read the mailing list archive is
21:37	jnthn	I forget exactly when it was too. Hm
21:38	masak	sorear: Damian wanted encapsulation at the cost of the MOP.
21:39	jnthn	There needs to be an escape valve somewhere. I think we hid it reasonably well.
21:39	jnthn	It annoys pmurias++ sufficiently, at least. ;-)
21:40	pmurias	having to use a module for a common things seems annoying
21:41	masak	the thread is called "[perl6/specs] 58fe2d: [S12] spec setting and getting values of attribute..."
21:42	doy	isn't the point that externally accessing a private attribute shouldn't be a common thing?
21:42	jnthn	Exactly.
21:47	pmurias	doy: when debugging?
21:47	masak	when debugging, or when serializing, or when instantiating. that's when we typically like to break encapsulation.
21:48	masak	but .perl produces "normal" Perl 6 code, in some sense.
21:48	pmurias	and what about .gist?
21:48	jnthn	.oO( debugger feature idea! :) )
21:50	jnthn	hm, earlyish $dayjob tomorrow I guess
21:50	jnthn	'night
21:54	masak	'night, jnthn
21:57		thou joined #perl6
21:57	geekosaur	.gist is, as the name suggests, just the gist of it; it should probably print only enough to uniquely identify
22:12	masak	'night
22:18		whiteknight joined #perl6
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22:28		raiph joined #perl6
22:30	raiph	hi all
22:31	sorear	hello raiph
22:31	raiph	i'm curious to know who added the read only alias / ownership capability discussion to today's summary
22:31	raiph	hi sorear
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