Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-09-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:35 raiph http://irclog.perlgeek.de/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2012-09-15;summary=1 #perl6 curated backlog for 2012-09-15
00:35 raiph http://irclog.perlgeek.de/out.pl?channel=perl6;date=2012-09-16;summary=1 #perl6 curated backlog for 2012-09-16
00:36 raiph Use the existing navigation links above, and the "summary
00:39 raiph The above links are what you get if you click to get to the corresponding day, then click the "summary" link that appears next to Camelia (or wraps if your screen is too narrow)
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00:45 raiph phenny, tell moritz https://gist.github.com/3732447#gistcomment-574072
00:45 phenny raiph: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
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02:39 yarp r: @*INC.say;
02:39 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/.perl6/lib /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.7.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤»
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04:01 skids r: (0x1800000000000000 +& (+^0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say
04:01 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«0␤»
04:02 skids hmmmm.  that gives me f800000000000000 locally (star08).  I wonder what's hosed.
04:02 TimToady r: (0x1800000000000000 - (+^0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say
04:02 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«1␤»
04:10 sorear skids: the perl6 executable on p6eval is 32-bit
04:10 sorear skids: I think rakudo uses machine integers for bitops
04:11 sorear which is kind of odd because both feather1 and feather3 are x86_64
04:11 sorear but we have:
04:11 sorear sorear@feather3:~$ ls ~p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6 -lh
04:11 sorear -rwxr-xr-x 1 p6eval p6eval 57K Sep 17 06:08 /home/p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6
04:11 sorear sorear@feather3:~$ file ~p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6
04:11 sorear /home/p6eval/nom-inst/bin/perl6: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version
04:14 TimToady Perl 6 shuld just do bitops in arbitrary precision by pretending it's infinite precision 2's complement
04:15 TimToady a negative number just has an infinitude of 1's instead of 0's
04:16 skids That does work to some extent.
04:17 skids I think there's some problems when things are near the 64-bit border and representations might be promoted/demoted.
04:17 TimToady of course, if you know you're gonna store the result in a native location, you can optimize
04:18 TimToady we want fast crypto too :)
04:18 skids r: (0x1800000000000000 +& (0xffffffffffffffff +^ 0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say # workaround, works locally here.
04:18 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«0␤»
04:18 skids hrm.
04:26 skids r: (0x1800000000000000 +& (0xfffffffffffffffff +^ 0x1000000000000000)).fmt("%x").say
04:26 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«0␤»
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04:48 moritz good morning
04:48 phenny moritz: 16 Sep 17:09Z <raiph> tell moritz https://gist.github.com/3732447
04:48 phenny moritz: 16 Sep 18:20Z <not_gerd> tell moritz there appears to be some confusion on left<->right in the section on item assignment of http://doc.perl6.org/language/operators
04:48 phenny moritz: 16 Sep 21:16Z <raiph> tell moritz What about logmarks? Click time field toggles a logmark. Logmark'd lines are highlighted. Does everything we need for phase 1. Very simple. What's not to love?
04:48 phenny moritz: 00:45Z <raiph> tell moritz https://gist.github.com/3732447#gistcomment-574072
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05:06 raiph http://blogs.perl.org/users/perl_6_reports/2012/09/perl6-summary-now-built-in-to-irclog-software.html
05:07 moritz what's not to love? that clicking on the time already has another function that I'd like to preserve
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05:23 sorear moritz: could have a separate mode for raiph, no?
05:23 raiph moritz: ok.
05:24 raiph sorear: that's basically what's there now. works great.
05:25 raiph (but I don't let "works great" for certain use cases get in the way of "works better" for more use cases)
05:26 raiph moritz: forgetting clicking on time, what do you think of the basic approach? click a line, it's logmarked. that's it.
05:27 moritz raiph: it'd like to hear more feedback on the summary mode from others first
05:27 moritz raiph: if it's something that most people don't bother with, I don't want to integrate it that tightly with the rest of the page
05:28 moritz if it's something most users pick up, I'm all for tighter integration
05:31 raiph moritz: "more feedback". makes sense.
05:42 raiph moritz: While I hugely want this new summary mode to be successful, I don't want it to rely on me.
05:42 raiph moritz: I'm already concerned because no one but me has done the summarizing in the day since you enabled the feature.
05:43 raiph moritz: While that may of course change, it's not an auspicious start.
05:43 raiph moritz: It doesn't take long to do a whole day, maybe an hour or two, but it's all relative.
05:45 raiph I was really hoping for an approach that would lend itself to communal summarizing.
05:47 raiph We shall of course see. I'm doing my best to encourage folk to help out. For example my latest blog:
05:48 raiph http://blogs.perl.org/users/perl_6_reports/2012/09/perl6-summary-now-built-in-to-irclog-software.html
05:48 raiph Here's hoping.
05:51 raiph *communal and continuous (up-to-the-minute) summarizing
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07:21 FROGGS good morning
07:25 sorear o/
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07:46 kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people
07:46 sorear o/
07:49 mathw Good morning
08:00 anuby 0/
08:05 brrt \o kresike
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08:24 dalek Perlito: 408fa18 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | Makefile:
08:24 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - add "make minify"
08:24 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/408fa18d79
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08:44 yarp nr:  my Num @number=<3  4  5  6>; @number[4] = [+] @number; @number.say;
08:44 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«3 4 5 6 18␤»
08:44 p6eval ..rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/ByQwh5XleO:1␤␤»
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08:53 return joined #perl6
08:54 return r: '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$0~$0},:g)
08:54 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/SpZ3bZi89C:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/SpZ3bZi89C:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/SpZ3bZi89…
08:55 return r: '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$1~$1},:g)
08:55 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/C9vHJNhAY9:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/C9vHJNhAY9:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/C9vHJNhAY…
08:56 return n: '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$0~$0},:g)
08:56 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4:  ( no output )
08:57 return hello \o/  perl6, why the code wrong?
09:00 return n: say  '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{$0~$0},:g)
09:00 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«11a22b33c44d55␤»
09:01 return |o/ n++
09:01 jnthn morning o/
09:02 return morning jnth \o\
09:02 return n: say  '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{sprintf("%02d",$0)},:g)
09:02 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«01a02b03c04d05␤»
09:03 return r: say  '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,{sprintf("%02d",$0)},:g)
09:03 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«No such method 'Int' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in any  at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:91␤  in sub sprintf at src/gen/CORE.setting:2131␤  in block  at /tmp/SyyL1YY6LX:1␤␤»
09:04 jnthn r: say  '1a2b3c4d5'.subst(/(\d+)/,-> $/ {sprintf("%02d",$0)},:g)
09:04 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«01a02b03c04d05␤»
09:05 return oh r++
09:08 FROGGS hi jnthn
09:09 return jnthn: thanks.
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11:08 jnthn std: -foo => 'bar'
11:08 p6eval std b842bb3: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
11:09 jnthn std: +foo => 'bar'
11:09 p6eval std b842bb3: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
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11:11 jnthn In http://glitchmr.github.com/perl-6-changes-2012W37.html it mentions that -foo => 'bar' pair form is now supported, but the commit was to STD_P5, not STD: https://github.com/perl6/std/commit/942bb1cfc5bf29d1b09bc5ae4fb32c41e9956a74
11:11 jnthn Otherwise, nice summary :)
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11:37 pmurias jnthn: does nqp -e 'use nqp' work for your?
11:39 jnthn pmurias: No; I fixed the compreg approach though
11:39 jnthn (The one you were originally trying)
11:40 pmurias thanks, worked
11:51 sirrobert what mechanism is there for class-level variables?
11:51 jnthn sirrobert: You, er, declare a variable inside of the class. :-)
11:51 hoelzro sirrobert: I think you can just do this:
11:51 sirrobert via closure?
11:52 hoelzro class MyClass { my $foo; }
11:52 jnthn Right. :)
11:52 sirrobert then manually do an accessor to get it from outside?
11:52 jnthn my $.foo; # generates an accessor for you
11:52 Su-Shee that's what $.foo is for..
11:52 sirrobert ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
11:52 sirrobert not *has* $.foo
11:52 sirrobert *my* $.foo
11:53 jnthn Right, "has" means "one per instance"
11:53 sirrobert yeah
11:53 sirrobert ok, that's great
11:53 sirrobert trying it out now =)
11:53 FROGGS ohh, good to know
11:53 sirrobert that's great.
11:54 sirrobert I notice that "my $.bar" doesn't need "is rw" the same way "has $.bar" does.
11:54 Su-Shee I thought rw is default anyways?
11:54 sirrobert not for "my $.foo" (at least not in my version of rakudo =)
11:55 moritz Su-Shee: no, default is ro
11:55 jnthn defualt is ro. Hm. :)
11:55 jnthn I think that wants to be the case for the "my" one too but...we don't really have variable traits yet. Unless moritz++ added 'em...
11:56 Su-Shee ah well, I rarely use instance/class vars anyways.... :) d
11:57 moritz jnthn: no, I haven't
11:57 jnthn oh, you did constants...
11:57 moritz the problem is really that traits work at compile time, but at compile time we only see the entry in the proto lexpad
11:57 moritz so there's not much we can do in terms of traits that affect the value of a variable
11:58 jnthn Well, traits are more about the container I geuss
11:58 jnthn *guess
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12:28 * [Coke] sees "since the day you enabled the feature" in backlog, and wonders what feature, and if you want it to be more noticed, mentioning someplace other than backscroll is a good idea.
12:29 [Coke] esp. since feather was rebooted in the past week.
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12:38 FROGGS is there a way to open pipes?
12:38 [Coke] jnthn: no worries on the autoviv thing for now; I already worked around that in partcl-nqp there weren't many cases of it.
12:38 FROGGS my $fh = open( "| cc -xc -", :w ) doesnt work for me :/
12:38 moritz FROGGS: I think there's an unspecced adverb to open() that does that
12:39 [Coke] jnthn, pmichaud: latest stick on partcl-nqp update is issue #53 on nqp, but also: converting PAST to QAST is not straightforward.
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12:39 moritz FROGGS: search for pipe in src/core/IO.pm in rakudo
12:39 FROGGS thanks
12:42 jnthn [Coke]: What are you finding non-straightforward, ooc?
12:42 [Coke] jnthn: many of the :adverbs are missing.
12:42 [Coke] lack of docs on both versions makes it hard to say "oh, this is now spelled that way"
12:42 jnthn Lack of docs is a problem, yes.
12:43 [Coke] Doesn't help that pmichaud setup most of the original PAST, so I had it handed to me the first time.
12:43 jnthn Ah
12:43 [Coke] jnthn: for example, here's one that i just ripped out but probably shouldn't have:
12:43 FROGGS moritz: this is working:  my $fh = open( "cc -xc -", :w, :p )
12:44 [Coke] QAST::Var.new( :name<lexpad>, :scope<register>, :isdecl ...
12:44 jnthn :scope<local> :decl<var>
12:44 jnthn er, with the comma
12:44 jnthn Problem is that PAST treated parameter as a scope.
12:45 jnthn Which meant you couldn't have parameters that went into registers.
12:45 jnthn You were forced to do lexicals
12:45 jnthn Which ain't always desirable.
12:46 [Coke] jnthn: thank you.
12:46 [Coke] what about :viviself(...) ?
12:48 jnthn That one really did get killed. It also did a couple of distinct things. If you were using it on an isdecl, just do a bind to the thing you're declaring. If you really did want to do some kind of "if it's null" logic per lookup (discouraged unless you must do it), see VarWithFallback
12:49 [Coke] how to do the bind? :bind<thing> ?
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12:49 jnthn QAST::Op.new( :op('bind'), ... )
12:49 jnthn First arg is the QAST::Var, second is the thing to bind
12:50 [Coke] Thanks.
12:51 [Coke] what about :hll ?
12:51 jnthn There's now a QAST::CompUnit that wraps the entire thing to be compiled, and the :hll goes on that.
12:52 jnthn QAST::CompUnit.new( :hll('tcl'), $top-level-block )
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12:58 Woodi raiph: just learned today about summarizer and reports and like both :)
13:00 Woodi but me thinks joins can be filtered out in summary view or maybe displayed in smallest rows ?
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13:01 Woodi and maybe "navigation links" can use bigger font ?
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13:09 moritz why would the summary contain joins?
13:09 moritz just don't add them to the summary :-)
13:25 sirrobert r: class A { my  $.foo; has $.foo is rw; }; A.foo = "bar"; my $a = A.new; $a.foo = "baz";     say $a.foo; say A.foo;
13:25 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«baz␤baz␤»
13:25 sirrobert Is there a way to have a class version separate from an instance version ?
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13:27 jnthn By calling them different things? :)
13:28 sirrobert I'm hoping for something like setting something at the class level (at runtime) as a default for instances.  In particular, db config stuff
13:29 jnthn That's fine, just have a my $.foo-default; has $.foo = $foo-default;
13:29 jnthn or something
13:29 sirrobert fair enough
13:31 moritz (the accessors are just regular methods, which is why you can't have accessors for two attributes of the same name)
13:31 sirrobert ok, that makes sense =)
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13:57 pmurias jnthn: what does --vmlibs=perl6_group,perl6_ops do?
13:59 jnthn pmurias: Ensures that .loadlib directives for the Perl 6 PMCs and dynops are emitted.
13:59 pmurias does it stop the nqp via compreg from working?
14:00 jnthn Don't see why it'd do that; they feel quite orthogonal.
14:00 pmurias jnthn: I get http://pastie.org/4738542
14:01 pmurias Makefile: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1211092/
14:01 jnthn bah, I get an Application error when looking at that paste...
14:01 pmurias jnthn: which one?
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14:03 jnthn the first one
14:05 yarp r: my Num @number = <1 2 3 4>; @number[4] = [+] @number;
14:05 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/uqd_5X2XmR:1␤␤»
14:05 yarp nr: my Num @number = <1 2 3 4>; @number[4] = [+] @number;
14:05 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/00B337Ld2O:1␤␤»
14:05 p6eval ..niecza v21-11-g09989b4:  ( no output )
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14:06 yarp nr: my Num @number = <1 2 3 4>; @number[4] = [+] @number; @number.say;
14:06 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 10␤»
14:06 p6eval ..rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Num' but got 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/Vr6pUabaJ7:1␤␤»
14:07 cognominal jnthn, would be possible to derive a rakudo grammar from HLL::Grammar ? Currently, it is only possible from nqp
14:08 jnthn No.
14:08 cognominal one cannot use at once nqp and rakudo pbc?
14:09 jnthn Well, maybe you can load it, but then the bigger problem is that HLL::Gramamr ultimately derives from NQPCursor and thus NQPMu, and so you'd get NQP match objects, not Perl 6 ones.
14:09 cognominal ha, thx
14:10 jnthn We could either:
14:10 jnthn 1) factor this with roles instead
14:10 jnthn 2) make a Perl 6 module with some of the HLL stuff in and put it on modules.perl6.or
14:10 jnthn *org
14:11 jnthn I suggest doing it as roles though
14:11 jnthn A QuoteParsing role, a ExpressionParsing one, etc. Could be quite nice.
14:11 jnthn pmichaud++ may have other suggestions
14:12 moritz btw the name conflict between methods in Any and grammar rules really bothers me
14:13 moritz r: grammar A { token TOP { <tree> }; token tree { a } }; say A.parse('a')
14:13 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'tree'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Any:U : Mu *%_)␤:(Any:D : Mu *%_)␤:(Any:D : &c, Mu *%_)␤:(Any:D : Cool $count, Mu *%_)␤␤  in method tree at src/gen/CORE.setting:1224␤  in any !reduce at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:582␤  in any !cursor_pass at src/st…
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14:13 moritz and I wonder why. Isn't A much more specific than Any?
14:13 moritz r: grammar A { token TOP { <tree> }; token tree { a } }; say A.^mro
14:13 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«A() Grammar() Cursor() Any() Mu()␤»
14:17 jnthn moritz: The problem is that we ended up with Any in $*ACTIONS
14:17 jnthn cognominal++ already pointed out this issue once before
14:18 jnthn So it calls Any.tree as an action method
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14:19 moritz I wonder if we could set $*ACTIONS to a singleton that either doesn't have any methods, or on which we don't call methods
14:19 pmurias jnthn: error re paste: http://pastie.org/4738666
14:19 moritz hm, or maybe a catch-all method that doesn't do any harm
14:20 moritz doesn't sound very convincing to me though :(
14:23 jnthn pmurias: That appears when you add the --vmlibs line?
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14:24 jnthn Can't reproduce that here
14:25 jnthn nqp -e "pir::compreg__Ps('nqp').compile('say(42)')()"
14:25 jnthn 42
14:25 jnthn nqp --vmlibs=perl6_group -e "pir::compreg__Ps('nqp').compile('say(42)')()"
14:25 jnthn 42
14:26 pmurias jnthn: I got confused
14:26 moritz I could imagine that another process might be having trouble to compreg('nqp') without loading those libs first, no?
14:26 pmurias yes, that is likely what's happening
14:27 jnthn moritz: But if this *is* NQP... :)
14:27 moritz but then I don't think that NQP doesn't emit the necessary compreg__SP call to allow that in first place
14:27 jnthn moritz: but yeah, there's an issue here in that compreg is so global it oversteps the global boundary...
14:27 jnthn moritz: It does :)
14:27 moritz it does?
14:28 moritz where?
14:28 jnthn $nqpcomp.language('nqp');
14:28 jnthn .language calls compreg
14:29 moritz but that only happens if you call that method, no?
14:29 moritz I mean, if I load the compiled NQP .pir file, it's not called, is it?
14:29 masak oh hai, #perl6
14:29 moritz so I can use compreg from within an nqp process
14:30 moritz but I can't use it load the compiler from another process that loads NQP.pbc
14:30 moritz oh hai masak
14:30 FROGGS hi masak
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14:33 * masak been teaching git today :)
14:34 jnthn moritz: ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, that's an issue
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14:37 sirrobert r: class A { has $.foo; submethod BUILD { say "FOO: $!foo"; } }; say A.new(foo => 'bar');
14:37 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in submethod BUILD at /tmp/IdJh1JxoqR:1␤␤FOO: ␤A.new(foo => Any)␤»
14:37 tadzik ohhai
14:37 sirrobert some day I'll grok build... =)   How can I access $!foo with value "bar" in this build?
14:37 Su-Shee masak: I wish git would make its interface as nice and clean as darcs' made theirs.
14:37 jnthn sirrobert: BUILD runs *before* any defaults are applied
14:38 jnthn sirrobert: You need to take :$foo as an argument in the BUILD
14:38 sirrobert ahhhh ok, thanks
14:38 sirrobert I did something like that but wrong syntax
14:38 jnthn ah :)
14:38 masak Su-Shee: git's interface is its weak spot, yes.
14:39 sirrobert is there anything that runs after defaults are applied?
14:40 moritz I don't think so
14:40 sirrobert ok, thanks
14:40 moritz note that if you write
14:40 moritz submethod BUILD(:$!foo) { }
14:40 moritz then it will fill in the attribute at the time that BUILD is called
14:40 moritz (ie before the body of BUILD is run)
14:41 moritz see also: http://doc.perl6.org/language/objects#Object+Construction
14:44 [Coke] jnthn: thanks for the pointers. I will fixup all that after $DAYJOB and see what's left.
14:44 jnthn [Coke]: you're welcome :)
14:48 cognominal joined #perl6
14:49 kresike bye folks
14:51 yarp joined #perl6
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15:05 felher Is the callsame/nextsame/... stuff for methods borrowed from lisp?
15:05 * moritz has no idea
15:06 * jnthn would have to reach for AMOP to remember how similar their factoring of it is
15:08 felher Hm, AMOP sounds interesting :)
15:08 * moritz would love some more (especially non-lispy) literature on MOPs
15:09 jnthn Yeah, somebody should totally write some... :)
15:09 * jnthn volunteers the guy who did 6mo...oh, wait...darn :)
15:09 felher :P
15:10 stopbit joined #perl6
15:11 jnthn felher: AMOP is a nice read, if you can pretend to know LISP while you read it :)
15:11 masak 6mo is so metacircular that even the guy who wrote it ends up pointing to himself :P
15:11 jnthn I managed to pretend well enough to follow what was going on :)
15:11 masak also, this line of jokes is so metacircular it ends up being mostly about itself, too. :P
15:12 * masak gets sucked into a vortex of self-reference!
15:12 tadzik you put yourself in it yourself!
15:12 tadzik er, I mean,
15:12 jnthn That must drive one loopy...
15:13 * felher adds AMOP to his to-read-queue
15:13 sirrobert so, I have a bit of code from Config::INI.  There's a method that gets run twice.  The first time, Config::INI::parse_file(...) works fine.  The second time it complains "Could not find symbol 'Config::INI::&parse_file'.  What would cause that?
15:13 sirrobert err a bit of code that uses Config::INI
15:13 moritz missing 'use' statement?
15:13 moritz or the precompilation bug?
15:13 sirrobert no, it works the first time (so it's being used and parse_file works)
15:14 sirrobert I'm not precompiling
15:14 tadzik uh-oh, that'
15:14 tadzik s my module :P
15:14 sirrobert let me see if I can put together a gist that reproduces it ...
15:14 moritz that would be helpful, yes
15:14 sirrobert tadzik: it doesn't "feel" like a problem with Config::INI ... =)
15:14 tadzik good :)
15:14 * tadzik decomutees
15:16 masak tadzik: the best moment of this summer was when I realized that I could put the helmet in the helmet, and it would just *disappear* from the room, because it was now hidden in itself.
15:16 moritz woah, carving out a piece of reality into a circulary graph!
15:17 FROGGS masak: I've got the key from "the lost room" at home, I can put these things there if I dont need them anymore ;o)
15:17 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:18 FROGGS but its not that cool anyway
15:19 moritz wow, I've got an email with subject 'Perl6 Help', and before opening it I thought "if you want help, go to the mailing lists or IRC". Then I opened it, and found that it was from somebody who actually wants to help us :-)
15:19 ivan``_ joined #perl6
15:19 FROGGS heh
15:19 FROGGS BANG! surprise!
15:20 sirrobert =)
15:21 FROGGS and? where is he or she?
15:21 PerlJam moritz: "Hi, I'm an independantly wealthy person who happens to love the direction Perl 6 is going; how do I contribute some $$$ to the Perl 6 effort?"
15:21 PerlJam </dream>
15:22 moritz PerlJam: nah, "just" offering some proof-reading / copy editing of documentation for now
15:22 skids I'd settle for "I'm an independently wealthy person"
15:22 sqirrel joined #perl6
15:22 PerlJam heh, I was just about to write:  more likely, "I can write, Perl 6 needs docs, how can I help?"
15:27 masak "I took the liberty of finishing Perl 6 last Thursday between laundry and dinner. Merry Christmas!"
15:27 daxim I'm *so* going to quote you out of context
15:28 GlitchMr https://gist.github.com/3737998
15:28 GlitchMr wow, I've made "serious" PHP code
15:29 masak daxim: if you quote me, remember to use two layers of quotes.
15:29 daxim »_«
15:31 daxim did you design this, GlitchMr?
15:31 GlitchMr perl6: print 「\ // welcome \\ to // the \\ world /」
15:31 p6eval rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/YegGFWLqdf:1␤»
15:31 p6eval ..niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unsupported use of bare 'print'; in Perl 6 please use .print if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/I2aaIhloJI line 1:�------> [32mprint[33m�[31m 「\ // welcome \\ to // the \\ world /」[0m��Confu…
15:31 GlitchMr daxim: yes
15:31 PerlJam GlitchMr: next, get rid of the named function requirement  :)
15:31 GlitchMr std: print 「\ // welcome \\ to // the \\ world /」
15:31 p6eval std b842bb3: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
15:31 daxim I'd spell whatever - any
15:32 brrt GlitchMr: yay kill php!
15:32 GlitchMr Actually, 'off-rails.php' code itself is better
15:32 GlitchMr That was just example
15:32 GlitchMr https://gist.github.com/3738030
15:34 PerlJam GlitchMr: you've got to have the function that handles the dispatch called "crazy_train"
15:37 GlitchMr Hmmm... I've feeling I could make this more awesome
15:44 M_o_C joined #perl6
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15:59 sirrobert ha
15:59 GlitchMr https://gist.github.com/3738030
15:59 sirrobert I isolated the problem... making a gist now
16:00 GlitchMr Now it looks like average PHP code, doesn't it?
16:00 sirrobert oohhhh... oneupsgistship, eh?
16:00 sirrobert GlitchMr:  Yep, looks phpish =)
16:01 GlitchMr I even put "die or die" because normal "exit" is boring :-)
16:01 sirrobert What's interesting about the file?
16:03 GlitchMr Now, I should push this to GitHub
16:06 sirrobert ok!  https://gist.github.com/3738213 shows the (weird) error I'm getting
16:06 sirrobert I think it's a bug in 'require'
16:07 jnthn What's in Loader?
16:07 jnthn But yeah, weird.
16:08 PerlJam .oO( something that stomps on Config::INI::parse_file )
16:09 sirrobert nothing is in Loader
16:09 sirrobert or you can put junk in it... it doesn't really matter
16:09 sirrobert the point is, "requiring" any file causes Config::INI::parse_file to break
16:10 am0c joined #perl6
16:11 jnthn oh, hmmmm
16:11 GlitchMr https://gist.github.com/3738233
16:11 GlitchMr I hope this README is realistic
16:16 daxim it's terrible
16:16 daxim seriously, this needs so much improvement I don't know where to start the critique
16:17 GlitchMr that's the point
16:17 GlitchMr Also, https://github.com/GlitchMr/php-off-the-rails
16:18 tadzik I don't quite see why are you doing this :)
16:19 GlitchMr To get PHP badge on Coderwall... perhaps?
16:19 daxim no, I'm saying your English writing sucks donkey balls and this reflects poorly on your code crafting
16:19 daxim do you want help?
16:19 tadzik I'd be ashamed of such thing
16:19 GlitchMr But it works!
16:19 GlitchMr I mean, it works with simple "Hello, world!" programs
16:20 daxim answer me
16:21 GlitchMr No
16:21 GlitchMr I know that my English sucks
16:21 jnthn sirrobert: golfed it
16:21 sirrobert looking (thanks)
16:22 jnthn sirrobert: And think I found the fail
16:23 GlitchMr If you would like to see anything more serious I've made, I would look into my JavaScript, Perl 6 or AWK code
16:24 GlitchMr (too bad that GitHub doesn't recognize AWK)
16:24 timotimo GlitchMr: i don't know php any more. what does your thingie do? :\
16:24 GlitchMr timotimo: It works like Dancer, except it's worse
16:25 timotimo so it's a small web framework?
16:26 timotimo never tried dancer before
16:26 GlitchMr Well, yes
16:26 GlitchMr I can do stuff like
16:26 GlitchMr get('/', function () { echo 'Hello, world!' })
16:26 rhr joined #perl6
16:26 GlitchMr And it shows "Hello, world!" on main page of site
16:27 benabik joined #perl6
16:28 sirrobert jnthn: back (impromptu meeting).  What's the skinny?
16:28 timotimo mhm, that reminds me of the microframeworks they have in the python world
16:28 jnthn sirrobert: Seems some mess in handling of GLOBAL
16:29 sirrobert hm ok.  Can I help? =)
16:29 jnthn sirrobert: I think I can see what needs fixing.
16:29 sirrobert jnthn: cool, thanks-- I have a workaround in place in the meantime...  but it's ugly =)
16:30 GlitchMr http://glitchmr.github.com/php-off-the-rails/
16:30 GlitchMr :-)
16:30 jnthn yeah, I can patch the issue this evening, I think
16:30 sirrobert (not -- in the decrement sense =)
16:33 jnthn sirrobert: Got a fix locally. spectesting
16:33 sirrobert cool, thanks
16:34 sirrobert jnthn++
16:34 jnthn One of those "how did we not spot this before" things...
16:34 flightrecorder joined #perl6
16:34 FROGGS joined #perl6
16:35 FROGGS hi there
16:36 jnthn hi FROGGS
16:38 dalek rakudo/nom: ec413ef | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.pm:
16:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix busted GLOBAL preservation code.
16:38 dalek rakudo/nom:
16:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixes a bug whereby require would clobber GLOBAL, discovered by
16:38 dalek rakudo/nom: sirrobert++.
16:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ec413efe4f
16:38 dalek roast: efbc8d7 | jnthn++ | S11-modules/require.t:
16:38 dalek roast: Test for require / GLOBAL.
16:38 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/efbc8d7451
16:44 ajoe joined #perl6
16:45 daxim https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=114946
16:45 PerlJam jnthn: What's the difference between get_hll_global and get_root_global ?
16:46 ajoe joined #perl6
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16:46 kaare__ joined #perl6
16:46 jnthn PerlJam: Where it looks
16:46 PerlJam jnthn: I ask because there's also a get_hll_global on line 273 of ModuleLoader.pm that I wonder if it also shouldn't be changed.
16:46 jnthn PerlJam: We were preserving GLOBAL in NQP land
16:49 jnthn PerlJam: er...yes
16:50 * jnthn updates it and spectests again
16:51 jnthn daxim: On that ticket, I'm not sure the point is optimizability so much as it is stopping people changing the arguments and accidentally updating things in the caller, unless that's specifically declared as being the intent.
16:53 daxim the topic is currently under discussion on p5p, you should add your comment to the ticket
16:54 moritz nr: sub f($x) { $x := 5; say $x }; f(42)
16:54 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«5␤»
16:54 p6eval ..rakudo 5aa57b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/RzWynDDFS4:1␤»
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17:17 jnthn dalek: done so
17:18 jnthn er, daxim^^
17:18 jnthn dinner &
17:23 REPLeffect joined #perl6
17:30 FROGGS are here any perl6 windows ppl?
17:30 FROGGS is there something I need to care about when installing rakudo?
17:36 tgt joined #perl6
17:38 [Coke] #perl6 seems to like reddit, neh?
17:44 thou joined #perl6
17:48 moritz it's a love/hate relationship, I think :-)
17:53 dalek glitchmr.github.com: 0cd0e94 | GlitchMr++ | _posts/2012-09-16-perl-6-changes-2012W37.md:
17:53 dalek glitchmr.github.com: The message is actually more detailed - instead of "value" it shows variable name.
17:53 dalek glitchmr.github.com: review: https://github.com/GlitchMr/glitchmr.github.com/commit/0cd0e94f08
17:54 dalek glitchmr.github.com: 6973c33 | GlitchMr++ | _includes/footer.html:
17:54 dalek glitchmr.github.com: Add my realname to footer
17:54 dalek glitchmr.github.com: review: https://github.com/GlitchMr/glitchmr.github.com/commit/6973c33cb8
17:58 GlitchMr http://glitchmr.github.com/perl-6-changes-2012W37.html
17:59 GlitchMr I have feeling that Disqus is broken
17:59 GlitchMr It shows "2 comments" but I only see one
17:59 GlitchMr Second one is my comment
18:01 GlitchMr Perhaps they have delays or something
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18:18 sisar can someone point out what the problem is: https://gist.github.com/3738874 ? I'm unable to add a path to $PATH using export in Cygwin.
18:19 PerlJam sisar: bogus (invisible) characters at the start of your command?
18:20 GlitchMr eval: print "\302\226"
18:20 buubot_backup GlitchMr: –1
18:20 GlitchMr eval: "\302\226"
18:20 buubot_backup GlitchMr: –
18:20 GlitchMr that... makes sense
18:21 sisar PerlJam: yes. I had just copy-pasted that from GlitchMr++'s page (http://glitchmr.github.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.html). Typing by hand solved it. Thanks.
18:22 leont left #perl6
18:23 GlitchMr Wait... invisible characters on my page?
18:23 GlitchMr That doesn't sound right
18:24 PerlJam GlitchMr: It probably isn't on your page.  I just tried to reproduce by cut-n-paste and couldn't
18:24 GlitchMr What is your browser?
18:24 PerlJam I'm on chrome
18:24 sisar GlitchMr: Firefox, 15.0
18:25 sisar PerlJam: i selected that line by triple-click.
18:25 sisar *triple-left-click
18:25 GlitchMr Weird, it works for me
18:26 GlitchMr Also Firefox 15.0, triple left click
18:26 GlitchMr (well, I use Opera as my main browser, but other browsers are useful for testing stuff)
18:26 sisar GlitchMr: maybe Cygwin has some problme ?
18:26 GlitchMr Well, invisible characters wouldn't appear from nowhere
18:26 PerlJam sisar: maybe you had some invisible stuff on the line prior to pasting?  Can you reproduce?
18:27 GlitchMr But I'm on Linux, so perhaps it's something specific to Windows version of Firefox
18:27 sisar PerlJam: yes, i can reproduce consistently.
18:27 PerlJam could be.
18:27 sirrobert exit
18:27 sirrobert woops =)
18:29 GlitchMr glitchmr@strawberry ~/g/g/_posts> file 2012-09-15-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.md
18:29 GlitchMr 2012-09-15-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.md: ASCII text
18:29 GlitchMr Interesting...
18:30 GlitchMr It could be postprocessing, except when using hex editor I don't see anything strange near `export` command.
18:33 sisar GlitchMr: after I have exported, how do make the changes to $PATH permanent ? Just opening and closing the Cygwin terminal does not help.
18:33 GlitchMr Modify .bashrc?
18:33 GlitchMr I guess
18:34 GlitchMr It should be there
18:34 GlitchMr Or... oh, you're on Windows
18:34 GlitchMr Enter into Control Panel and modify system env variables
18:34 moritz cygwin probably reads a .bashrc or _bashrc
18:34 sisar GlitchMr: Cygwin has its own .bashrc. I'll try modifying that.
18:35 GlitchMr sisar: or you may try http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310519
18:36 * jnthn back
18:37 GlitchMr glitchmr@strawberry ~/g/g/_site> perl -C -E 'while ($_ = getc) { say ord if $_ gt "\x7E" }' < how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.html
18:37 GlitchMr 960
18:37 GlitchMr 960
18:37 dalek rakudo/nom: 43ceae0 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ModuleLoader.pm:
18:37 dalek rakudo/nom: Also fix setting loading; PerlJam++.
18:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/43ceae0282
18:37 GlitchMr That would be two pi symbols
18:37 * sisar has to go to all this trouble to run perl6 on windows because Ubuntu just won't dual boot on my new Ultrabook :/
18:38 jnthn sisar: Did you use the MSI, or are you doing source builds?
18:38 GlitchMr Except... that wouldn't make sense because it also should find "☺"
18:38 sisar jnthn: source builds
18:39 jnthn OK. Was just asking in case the reaction was, "oh, there's an MSI?" :)
18:40 stopbit joined #perl6
18:40 GlitchMr glitchmr@strawberry ~/g/g/_site> perl -CSDL -0nE 'for (split //) {say ord if $_ gt "\x7E"}' how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-install-the-panda.html
18:40 GlitchMr 960
18:40 GlitchMr 960
18:40 GlitchMr 9786
18:40 GlitchMr ... no invisible characters
18:40 GlitchMr (except for spaces and linebreaks)
18:41 sisar GlitchMr: its ok. Don't fret over it :-)
18:41 GlitchMr :-)
18:42 GlitchMr I've no idea why it happens, but it's not my site
18:42 GlitchMr (I like having static HTML pages)
18:42 sisar jnthn: lets say I install Rakudo using .msi. But then i will have to use the Windows Command prompt right ? Which sucks, btw. Or is there a better command shell for Windows ?
18:43 GlitchMr sisar: yes, you can download git
18:43 GlitchMr It includes bash
18:43 GlitchMr This thing (http://msysgit.github.com/) includes bash
18:43 jnthn sisar: You can use anything that will invoke the perl6.exe :)
18:43 sisar jnthn: what do u use ?
18:43 sisar cmd.exe ?
18:43 GlitchMr I mean, "msysGit", not so called "Git for Windows"
18:44 jnthn sisar: yes
18:44 jnthn sisar: I don't really recommend it :P
18:44 sisar :-)
18:44 GlitchMr I have used bash.exe
18:44 GlitchMr When I was using Windows
18:45 jnthn I can run Rakudo just fine from the bash included with msysGit, anyways.
18:45 GlitchMr http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63913412/bytheway.png
18:45 jnthn .oO( maybe I should switch to using that more often...if only my fingers can unlearn what they're used to... )
18:45 GlitchMr I've found this screenshot
18:46 GlitchMr It's rather old, but it shows bash from msysgit
18:46 GlitchMr (just a word of warning - msysgit includes perl.exe - I would remove it and use some real Perl (such as Strawberry Perl))
18:46 GlitchMr (well, ok, that Perl is real too, but it's old - 5.8)
18:47 sirrobert joined #perl6
18:47 GlitchMr o/
18:49 pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6
18:49 tadzik god evening #perl6
18:50 jnthn afternoon, pmichaud  :)
18:51 * pmichaud does test builds of rakudo+nqp on latest parrot
18:52 GlitchMr glitchmr@strawberry:~$ `echo echo 42`
18:52 GlitchMr 42
18:52 jnthn ooh, I should re-test the latest Parrot too...
18:52 GlitchMr Who needs eval when you have backticks ;-)
18:52 pmichaud I'm testing both linux and win32 (strawberry/gmake)
18:52 jnthn win32/msvc here
18:52 pmichaud we could use a msv.... right :-)
18:52 pmichaud also a 64-bit test.
18:53 pmichaud (my windows is 32 bit)
18:53 jnthn I'm on 64-bit here
18:57 jnthn yeah, it built here today
18:57 * jnthn installs it and builds an NQP and Rakudo against it.
19:04 jnthn pmichaud: Builds went fine.
19:04 alester joined #perl6
19:06 pmichaud builds seem to be okay here too... spectesting
19:06 pmichaud I get one fail under linux
19:07 pmichaud t/spec/S02-types/declare.rakudo                         (Wstat: 256 Tests: 40 Failed: 0)
19:07 jnthn oh, that's not just me
19:07 pmichaud Parse errors: Bad plan.  You planned 79 tests but ran 40.
19:07 yarp joined #perl6
19:08 pmichaud ...we don't have anyone scheduled for this month's release?
19:08 jnthn r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; isa_ok($paxa,KeySet  );
19:08 p6eval rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«Parameter '' requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in submethod perl at src/gen/CORE.setting:11396␤  in sub isa_ok at lib/Test.pm:151␤  in block  at /tmp/h24rarP9vl:1␤␤»
19:09 jnthn wtf
19:10 jnthn r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; say $paxa
19:10 p6eval rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«Parameter '' requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in submethod gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:11395␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7173␤  in block  at /tmp/RuoSzyOCb3:1␤␤»
19:10 jnthn r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; say $paxa.WHAT
19:10 p6eval rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«Parameter '' requires an instance, but a type object was passed␤  in submethod gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:11395␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7173␤  in block  at /tmp/hJI7SFasBs:1␤␤»
19:10 jnthn r: use Test; my KeySet $paxa; say $paxa.^name
19:10 p6eval rakudo ec413e: OUTPUT«KeySet␤»
19:10 docdoctor joined #perl6
19:12 jnthn oh...
19:12 jnthn commit de96bae506667ba3e639dcddbcb81bdb08fda955 Unfudge KeySet test for Rakudo
19:12 jnthn GlitchMr: ^^ seems to have been a wrong unfudge?
19:13 GlitchMr > KeySet.new
19:13 GlitchMr keyset()
19:13 GlitchMr huh?
19:13 GlitchMr > my KeySet $fail = KeySet.new
19:13 masak nr: keyset(); say "alive"
19:13 jnthn pmichaud: Looks like an unfudging of a still failing test rather than a regression
19:13 GlitchMr keyset()
19:13 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     'keyset' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1435 (die @ 5) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) â�¤  at /h…
19:13 p6eval ..rakudo 43ceae: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&keyset' called (line 1)␤»
19:13 jnthn GlitchMr: Try just say KeySet
19:14 GlitchMr This appears to be Rakudo bug
19:14 pmichaud jnthn: wfm.  I'm getting fails in the windows build.
19:14 pmichaud (doesn't look like anything major.)
19:14 jnthn pmichaud: Mostly what's left is line endings issues
19:14 jnthn pmichaud: I cleared up some of them this week.
19:14 GlitchMr KeySet type is implemented, isn't it?
19:14 jnthn Yeah
19:14 jnthn submethod gist(Any:D $ : --> Str) { "keyset({ %!elems.keys».gist.join(', ') })" }
19:15 jnthn Why is that a submethod rather than a multi method like all the other gist methods?
19:15 dalek panda: 5e4ee61 | (Tobias Leich)++ | bin/panda.bat:
19:15 dalek panda: batch wrapper for windows guys
19:15 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/5e4ee61bc4
19:15 dalek panda: 56149b2 | tadzik++ | bin/panda.bat:
19:15 dalek panda: Merge pull request #17 from FROGGS/master
19:15 dalek panda:
19:15 dalek panda: added bin/panda.bat
19:15 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/56149b23b1
19:15 tadzik FROGGS++
19:15 FROGGS a bitch rapper, err batch wrapper
19:16 brrt joined #perl6
19:16 tadzik :P
19:17 FROGGS but it doesnt fetch
19:17 FROGGS ==> Fetching File::Spec
19:17 FROGGS Too many arguments.
19:17 tadzik :|
19:17 FROGGS so there will be another pull request in a minute
19:17 FROGGS :o)
19:18 tadzik you fix it, I don't have a windows env :P
19:18 tadzik okay :)
19:18 jnthn pmichaud: Seeing if I can fix the bug rather than re-fudge the test :)
19:19 pmichaud jnthn: I'm fine with either solution.  :)
19:20 jnthn Got a patch here, spectesting it to make sure nothing else breaks :)
19:21 brrt left #perl6
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: 87eb6c8 | jnthn++ | src/core/NQPRoutine.pm:
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: Stub in an NQPRegex type.
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr:
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: This will serve as the code object for regexes, rules and tokens, and
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: will come to hold the caps, NFA, etc.
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/87eb6c88c2
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: b24e129 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/World.pm:
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: Enable create_code to creates code object types besides NQPRoutine.
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b24e12996b
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: 024c643 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: Start creating regexes as NQPRegex.
19:22 dalek nqp/kill-nqpattr: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/024c643a40
19:25 FROGGS how do I get a .pir out of a .pm again?
19:25 dalek rakudo/nom: 690dadc | jnthn++ | src/core/Set.pm:
19:25 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix 'say KeySet'.
19:25 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/690dadc9cc
19:25 jnthn perl6 --target=pir --output=Foo.pir Foo.pm
19:25 FROGGS thanks
19:25 jnthn pmichaud: That should do it.
19:26 pmichaud jnthn++
19:27 jnthn pmichaud: Planning to eliminate nqpattr, but not before this month's releases.
19:28 pmichaud jnthn: that sounds excellent to me
19:28 jnthn Then we'll be down to just one cheat. :)
19:29 pmichaud when we no longer cheat, will we still be able to play this game?  ;-)
19:30 jnthn Don't worry, I'm only counting the cheats that are actually in src/cheats :P
19:30 pmichaud so, we don't count the cheats where we cheat on calling them cheats
19:31 jnthn Right. We're cheating at cheating.
19:31 jnthn Which is fine as we don't get caught not getting caught.
19:31 pmichaud I have a fairly long list of win fails
19:32 pmichaud https://gist.github.com/3739287
19:35 tadzik jnthn: do you need some testing on kill-nqpattr?
19:35 tadzik I'm rebuilding the toolchain anyway
19:35 snearch joined #perl6
19:36 jnthn tadzik: oh, not for a good while yet
19:36 tadzik okay
19:36 jnthn tadzik: This branch will probably take some time...I sure won't get through it today
19:36 jnthn pmichaud: Hmm...that's a couple more than I get
19:36 tadzik okay, sure
19:37 pmichaud I'm afk, kid pickup
19:39 sorear good * #perl6
19:39 tadzik hi sorear
19:40 masak sorear! \o/
19:50 FROGGS damn it, there is no prove on windows
19:50 tadzik ah
19:50 GlitchMr FROGGS: do you have Perl 5 installed?
19:50 tadzik I was wondering whether it'd be better to use parrot-prove
19:50 FROGGS who can I bug to have stuff in rakudo/bin?
19:50 jnthn There...there isn't? :)
19:50 GlitchMr prove is part of Perl 5
19:50 FROGGS GlitchMr: I have several, but not in PATH right now, shouldnt it work without perl5?
19:51 GlitchMr Add prove to PATH and it should be there
19:51 FROGGS thats not the point
19:51 tadzik FROGGS: obtw, we'll need some Test Harness in Perl 6 sooner or later :)
19:51 GlitchMr glitchmr@strawberry ~/g/perl6-Text-Abbrev> prove -eperl6
19:51 GlitchMr t/00-basic.t .. ok
19:51 GlitchMr All tests successful.
19:52 GlitchMr It just works!
19:52 FROGGS GlitchMr: IMO it would make sense that rakudo comes with its own prove
19:52 masak (Nicholas Clark)++ # https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=114946
19:53 GlitchMr Perhaps somebody could make App::Prove or something
19:53 FROGGS tadzik: I believe thats to heavy for me to do
19:53 GlitchMr But that isn't that important - Perl 5's prove works
19:55 jnthn masak: aye, interesting ticket
19:55 jnthn Two approaches enter. Which will leave? :)
19:55 masak ULTIMATE IMPLEMENTOR SMACKDOWN
19:56 jnthn That sounds painful :P
19:56 masak it's for the benefit of the users!
19:56 tadzik FROGGS: dang. That means I'll have to ;)
19:56 tadzik ...try
19:56 FROGGS meh
19:56 FROGGS can't we get schwern to do it?
19:57 tadzik hehe
19:59 pmichaud jnthn: (#114946) .... ummm, I don't remember Rakudo working the way it appears to be working now.
19:59 pmichaud (snapshot semantics)
19:59 jnthn pmichaud: It's been that way ever since nom, when we eliminated chains of containers.
19:59 pmichaud I don't remember eliminating chains of containers, either.
20:00 masak ...which was a big improvement, IIRC.
20:00 pmichaud I'm guessing that happened during my absence.
20:00 jnthn I...thought we discussed the nom container model and agreed on it, way back?
20:00 cognominal joined #perl6
20:01 jnthn I'm fairly sure there was some discussion on this.
20:01 pmichaud I don't remember eliminating the chaining effect for ::=, no.
20:02 jnthn :/
20:02 jnthn Well, clearly the current model is good enough to go a year without anybody noticing anything amiss.
20:02 pmichaud we even had spectests for the previous model
20:04 pmichaud what does niecza think?
20:04 docdoctor joined #perl6
20:04 pmichaud n: my $x = 3;  sub abc() { $x = 4; };  sub def($y) { say $y; abc(); say $y; };  def($x);  say $x;
20:04 p6eval niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«3␤3␤4␤»
20:04 pmichaud okay, niecza agrees with the current model.
20:05 jnthn rn: my $x = 3;  sub abc() { $x = 4; };  sub def($y) { say $y; abc(); say $y; };  def($x);  say $x;
20:05 p6eval rakudo 43ceae, niecza v21-11-g09989b4: OUTPUT«3␤3␤4␤»
20:05 pmichaud r: my $x = 3;  sub abc() { $x = 4; };  sub def(\y) { say y; abc(); say y; };  def($x);  say $x;
20:05 p6eval rakudo 43ceae: OUTPUT«3␤4␤4␤»
20:06 pmichaud well, if rakudo and niecza both agree, I think I'm okay with the new semantic.  I'm just surprised by the change, is all.
20:06 jnthn *nod*
20:06 pmichaud the spec might need to be clarified on this point, though.
20:07 * jnthn will wait and see what TimToady++ has to say
20:08 pmichaud in particular, "Parameters and arguments" in S06 leads off with "By default, all parameters are readonly aliases to their corresponding arguments--the parameter is just another name for the original argument, but the argument can't be modified through it."
20:08 jnthn Yeah, the current model contradicts that.
20:09 masak hm, wow. that doesn't sound like pass-by-value to me.
20:09 pmichaud right, it's not.
20:09 pmichaud as I said, that's why the change surprises me.  :)
20:09 jnthn If we have to do that, I'd rather find a way to track non-modifiability that doesn't involve multi-leve containers.
20:09 jnthn *level
20:09 pmichaud for readonly I don't think we need multi-level.
20:09 jnthn For readonly we'd better be able to statically analyze a bunch of cases.
20:09 pmichaud i.e., only add a container if the argument is rw
20:10 jnthn Well, then we gotta be careful we don't get things bound into $foo that will flatten.
20:10 jnthn Unless the model we have there makes that a non-issue.
20:11 pmichaud it's still an issue but might end up not being one
20:11 jnthn OK
20:11 pmichaud the other possibility is for readonly parameters to collapse any chains they find
20:12 pmichaud although that might be tricky as well.
20:12 jnthn Well, yeah
20:12 jnthn We get a lot of conceptual simplicity out of knowing it's 1-deep
20:13 pmichaud anyway, I suspect that technically speaking, RT #114946 is a legitimate bug per the spec, so either the spec has to change or the implementation does.
20:13 jnthn Agree
20:14 * TimToady still would like to see an ownership or capability model of writing such that passing an item out of a domain automatically defaults to readonly
20:14 dalek panda: 6b188a2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:
20:14 dalek panda: quote dest dir
20:14 dalek panda:
20:14 dalek panda: There can be spaces in path like in the default directory under windows. HOME under windows is `C:\Documents and Settings\...`
20:14 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/6b188a2c27
20:14 dalek panda: 978dec0 | tadzik++ | lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:
20:14 dalek panda: Merge pull request #18 from FROGGS/master
20:14 dalek panda:
20:14 dalek panda: Quoting $dest dir
20:14 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/978dec0a7f
20:14 tadzik FROGGS: are you developing on windowse usually?
20:14 jnthn TimToady: How would the case discussed in the ticket work out with that, ooc?
20:15 pmichaud TimToady: ah yes, I remember that discussion now.  I need to think on that one a bit more.
20:15 TimToady I would need to look at it, but am a bit distracted at the moment...
20:15 jnthn no hurry :)
20:15 pmichaud yeah, I need to fold the yapc::eu discussions into my mental model a bit.
20:16 pmichaud I remember the outlines of the ownership model we discussed; I just need to follow the ramifications a bit further.
20:18 pmichaud essentially the idea was to eliminate the rw flag altogether in favor of a "who owns (i.e. can write to) this thing" model.
20:18 sorear this ties into the question of how we're ever going to handle readonly aggregates
20:19 jnthn bbi10
20:19 * sorear will wait for pmichaud to understand the capability model before doing anything with it
20:19 pmichaud sorear: that seems very reasonable; it'll undoubtedly require some negotiated exploring here :)
20:19 pmichaud I'm afk also for a while
20:19 cognominal joined #perl6
20:20 FROGGS tadzik: last pull request for today ;o)
20:20 pmichaud between europe trip and local stuff, my office is a disaster that needs cleaning + organizing
20:20 pmichaud it's lowering my productivity by a noticeable amount
20:20 FROGGS tadzik: I used to, but since a year ore more I'm on linux, but still have a few VMs for testing
20:22 tadzik nice
20:22 FROGGS its good to have these things, otherwise I wouldnt be able to test File::Spec right
20:22 FROGGS I have Mac OSX and several BSD's too
20:25 dalek panda: 7fce5bc | (Tobias Leich)++ | bin/panda.bat:
20:25 dalek panda: using absolute path to original panda script file
20:25 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/7fce5bcb8f
20:25 dalek panda: 50c4156 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm:
20:25 dalek panda: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:FROGGS/panda
20:25 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/50c4156efd
20:25 dalek panda: 2db413d | tadzik++ | bin/panda.bat:
20:25 dalek panda: Merge pull request #19 from FROGGS/master
20:25 dalek panda:
20:25 dalek panda: Using absolute path to panda script
20:25 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/2db413dc31
20:25 tadzik FROGGS++ on hacking spree :)
20:27 FROGGS btw, panda should make bat files too when copying stuff to bin on windows
20:27 tadzik hm
20:27 FROGGS in perl5 there is a pl2bat
20:28 tadzik probably, yes
20:28 kst joined #perl6
20:28 FROGGS I mean, its not that important right now since there are not that many modules carrying stuff in bin around
20:29 tadzik we'll need that eventually
20:40 benabik joined #perl6
20:42 * tadzik sleeps. Good night #perl6
20:43 FROGGS gnight tadzik
20:43 felher night tadzik
20:46 cognominal joined #perl6
20:48 orafu joined #perl6
20:53 masak good knight o tadziku.
20:54 mucker joined #perl6
21:21 sivoais joined #perl6
21:29 pmurias .perl doesn't print out private attributes?
21:31 jnthn No, by design
21:31 jnthn (see long p6l discussion for more :))
21:32 pmurias how can I print out them?
21:32 jnthn Use the MOP
21:32 jnthn .^attributes gives you attribute meta-objects, and you can call .get_value and pass in the object
21:33 pmurias that's extremly annoying
21:33 jnthn It's meant to be.
21:34 pmurias and shouldn't .gist print out them?
21:34 jnthn No.
21:34 jnthn (We've already been there, and switched to keeping private things private.)
21:35 sorear I think Damian even wanted to do away with get_value
21:36 pmurias jnthn: where can I find the perl6 language thread?
21:36 jnthn sorear: I think so
21:37 jnthn pmurias: I forget the subject, and I don't know off hand where the best place to read the mailing list archive is
21:37 jnthn I forget exactly when it was too. Hm
21:38 masak sorear: Damian wanted encapsulation at the cost of the MOP.
21:39 jnthn There needs to be an escape valve somewhere. I think we hid it reasonably well.
21:39 jnthn It annoys pmurias++ sufficiently, at least. ;-)
21:40 pmurias having to use a module for a common things seems annoying
21:41 masak the thread is called "[perl6/specs] 58fe2d: [S12] spec setting and getting values of attribute..."
21:42 doy isn't the point that externally accessing a private attribute *shouldn't* be a common thing?
21:42 jnthn Exactly.
21:47 pmurias doy: when debugging?
21:47 masak when debugging, or when serializing, or when instantiating. that's when we typically like to break encapsulation.
21:48 masak but .perl produces "normal" Perl 6 code, in some sense.
21:48 pmurias and what about .gist?
21:48 jnthn .oO( debugger feature idea! :) )
21:50 jnthn hm, earlyish $dayjob tomorrow I guess
21:50 jnthn 'night
21:54 masak 'night, jnthn
21:57 thou joined #perl6
21:57 geekosaur .gist is, as the name suggests, just the gist of it; it should probably print only enough to uniquely identify
22:12 masak 'night
22:18 whiteknight joined #perl6
22:23 tharple joined #perl6
22:28 raiph joined #perl6
22:30 raiph hi all
22:31 sorear hello raiph
22:31 raiph i'm curious to know who added the read only alias / ownership capability discussion to today's summary
22:31 raiph hi sorear
23:09 skids joined #perl6
23:24 Circlepuller_ joined #perl6
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