Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-11-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:46 am0c r: <<<a b c >>>.WHAT.say
02:46 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
02:47 am0c r: <a b c>.WHAT.say
02:47 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
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02:53 diakopter r: <<<a b c >>> >>+<>>
02:53 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix >>+<>> instead␤at /tmp/mNguyXIXMM:1␤»
02:53 diakopter hee
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11:16 kresike hello all you happy perl6 people
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11:31 grondilu rn: my @a = (^3).roll: 3; say { @a Z=> ^@a }.keys;
11:31 p6eval rakudo f81716, niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
11:31 grondilu rn: my @a = (^3).roll: 3; say { @a Z=> ^@a }.perl;
11:31 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
11:31 p6eval ..rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Block.new()␤»
11:31 grondilu rn: my @a = (^3).roll: 3; say { @a Z=> ^@a }.WHAT;
11:31 p6eval rakudo f81716, niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
11:31 grondilu why isn't it a Hash?
11:32 grondilu I wanted to make a list of the elements of @a, but without repetition.
11:33 grondilu .oO(maybe I should use Set)
11:33 tadzik r: <a b c d c>.uniq.perl.say
11:33 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c", "d").list␤»
11:33 grondilu rn: my @a = (^3).roll: 10; say @a.uniq;
11:33 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«2 1 0␤»
11:33 p6eval ..niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«1 0 2␤»
11:33 grondilu cool
11:33 grondilu thanks
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11:36 jnthn It ain't a hash 'cus it has a placeholder parameter, which tells the block vs hash distinguisher "this is a block"
11:36 jnthn Maybe 'cus of the Z=> not being recognized as contributing to hashness too...
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11:44 grondilu r: say { 'foo' => 'bar' }.WHAT;
11:44 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
11:45 grondilu r: say { ('foo',) Z=> ('bar',) }.WHAT;
11:45 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
11:45 grondilu wtf
11:45 grondilu n: say { ('foo',) Z=> ('bar',) }.WHAT;
11:46 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
11:51 jnthn grondilu: See "Anonymous hashes vs blocks" in S06
11:57 felher r: say << a b c d 'ab cd' >>.perl;
11:57 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«(("a", "b", "c", "d"), "ab cd")␤»
11:58 jnthn r: .say for << a b c d 'ab cd' >>
11:58 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«a␤b␤c␤d␤ab cd␤»
11:59 felher ^ @ jnthn : after reading the spec a little (after talking with sorear), this striked me as odd.
11:59 jnthn felher: Note that when you iterate over it, it flattens.
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11:59 jnthn Same if you were to list assign it.
12:00 jnthn r: my %h = a => 1, b => 2; say %h.kv.perl
12:00 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«(("a", 1), ("b", 2)).list␤»
12:00 felher jnthn: yes, this is kinda what sorar said to. But the spec states (in S02, Relationship between <> and «») that this probably should be equivalent to ('a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'ab cd').
12:01 jnthn .kv there is another example or something that flattens but has some internal parcel structure...
12:01 jnthn felher: Well, and semantically it typically will be.
12:01 felher jnthn: yep, but the spec also specs .tree.
12:01 felher Oh, damn it, i have an appointment now. Sorry.
12:02 * felher back later.
12:02 jnthn np
12:03 felher goldfist1
12:03 felher re for a few minutes, i guess
12:05 felher jnthn: i thought, since the spec specs both << >> and .tree, it isn't exaclty as specced, since << >>.tree gives you something different (than at least I :) ) would expect :)
12:05 jnthn Hm, true.
12:06 jnthn Thing is
12:06 jnthn << $foo >>
12:06 jnthn will also split
12:06 jnthn It does it by a call to .words which is certainly going to end up creating a nested parcel too
12:07 jnthn While I can see how to fix the other case, this one is...not so easy.
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12:08 felher jnthn: i see. Well, it isn't really a big problem. I just wanted to mention it.
12:08 felher my appointment is ready now. so i'm afk again.
12:08 jnthn o/
12:09 * jnthn notices that we don't seem to have a Parcel transform that gives back a flattened out *Parcel*, but that's probably 'cus it'd interact badly with lazy things...
12:11 grondilu n: say { pair ('foo',) Z ('bar',) }.WHAT;
12:11 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     'pair' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1437 (die @ 5) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) â�¤  at /hom…
12:11 grondilu r: say { pair ('foo',) Z ('bar',) }.WHAT;
12:12 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&pair' called (line 1)␤»
12:12 grondilu r: say hash(('foo',) Z=> ('bar',)).WHAT;
12:12 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
12:12 grondilu that will do
12:13 jnthn .oO( need more bracket constructs in ASCII )
12:14 grondilu r: say %(('foo',) Z=> ('bar',)).WHAT;
12:14 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
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12:14 grondilu that will do too :)
12:15 jnthn that desugars to (('foo',) Z=> ('bar',)).hash, fwiw :)
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12:28 grondilu do you know the equivalent of @a.uniq in P5?
12:28 tadzik List::Util(s) uniq() mayhaps
12:30 grondilu nevermind.  I'll use a 'my %auniq; $auniq{$_}++ for @a;'
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14:54 pmurias hi
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14:56 jnthn o/ pmurias
14:57 pmurias jnthn: I got test 24 (modules) to pass at last ;)
14:57 jnthn \o/
14:57 pmurias the next one is classes ;)
14:58 jnthn How much of 6model / the REPRs did you port so far? :)
14:59 * jnthn will be curious to see how that looks in JavaScript...
15:00 pmurias jnthn: will be porting parts of that while implementing classes
15:01 pmurias I was distracted by other stuff from rakudo-js so I didn't get much done
15:03 jnthn OK
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15:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: 0651b8c | coke++ | / (4 files):
15:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/0651b8cdff
15:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: 7f8062f | coke++ | / (3 files):
15:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
15:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/7f8062f206
15:58 jnthn [Coke]++
15:58 jnthn Dang, if IO-Socket-INET.t hadn't failed we've have cleared 24,100 passes mark :P
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16:09 [Coke] that one seems to be sporadic.
16:09 [Coke] (we're bouncing between 2 and 16 failuresd)
16:09 flussence maybe it's hitting the 20 second timeout randomly?
16:10 jnthn You'd have to have a slow box for it to take 20 seconds...
16:10 [Coke] it's feather.
16:10 jnthn Ah... :)
16:11 [Coke] heh. so maybe? ;)
16:12 jnthn Still feels like a stretch :)
16:12 [Coke] niecza down to : niecza (86.24%)
16:18 kresike bye folks
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16:34 Ulti rakudo-js is p. cool, you could have an all perl6 web framework where you dont even touch JS
16:35 Ulti and one compiler
16:47 Ulti jnthn: with Nativecall I get an install error with libicuuc.48.dylib not found, on OSX I have v49 any harm in me just linking this?
16:49 jnthn What is it with OSX and linking... :)
16:49 jnthn Ulti: I'm not sure why NativeCall would somehow expose an ICU related linking issue.
16:50 jnthn Ulti: I mean, not unless your Rakudo otherwise has one...
16:50 Ulti nope
16:50 Ulti its weird
16:50 jnthn Indeed. What are you doing to trigger the error?
16:51 Ulti heh "panda install Nativecall"
16:51 jnthn Ah
16:51 jnthn Where does it fail?
16:51 jnthn In the tests?
16:51 jnthn That may be less weird.
16:51 jnthn The tests compile C code.
16:51 Ulti Trace/BPT trap: 5
16:51 jnthn And then make sure nativecall can be used to call it.
16:52 Ulti I'll just grab the github directly and check it out
16:52 jnthn See it installing it with --notests helps
16:52 jnthn panda --notests install NativeCall # or so
16:52 Ulti same thing
16:52 jnthn OK, then it makes no sense to me...
16:53 Ulti heh yeah dont worry I'll rule out all the oddities of OSX before pestering you further
16:53 jnthn Yeah...I'm pretty sure others have had nativecall working on OSX.
16:53 jnthn Think arnsholt++ did some work on that.
16:53 Ulti I have too only with the release a month ago
16:54 Ulti rakudo* release not nativecall
16:54 jnthn Weird...
16:55 Ulti jnthn: I take it all back my perl6 build is broken beyond all recognition
16:55 Ulti *sigh* sorry
16:55 jnthn Ah...
16:56 jnthn Well, that makes more sense at least...
16:56 Ulti yeah, unicode problems in Nativecall... wat
16:57 Ulti I should probably source rc my shells more often than never
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17:17 jaffa4 hi
17:17 jaffa4 What is ref in perl6?
17:17 flussence $obj.WHAT
17:17 jaffa4 n: my @a = 1,2;  [romt @a.WHAT;
17:17 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unable to parse array composer at /tmp/RU3B3YUlLu line 1:â�¤------> [32mmy @a = 1,2;  [[33mâ��[31mromt @a.WHAT;[0mâ�¤Couldn't find final ']'; gave up at /tmp/RU3B3YUlLu line 1 (EOF):â�¤------> [32mmy @a = 1,2;  [romt @a.WHAT;[…
17:18 jaffa4 n: my @a = 1,2;  print @a.WHAT;
17:18 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e:  ( no output )
17:18 jaffa4 r: my @a = 1,2;  print @a.WHAT;
17:18 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $v of type Array in string context  in block  at /tmp/ETfUBkU4mY:1␤␤»
17:19 jaffa4 r: my @a = 1,2;  print (\@a).WHAT;
17:19 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $v of type Capture in string context  in block  at /tmp/L2F97cIhFL:1␤␤»
17:19 jaffa4 n: my @a = 1,2;  print (\@a).WHAT;
17:19 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1295 (warn @ 5) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 266 (Mu.Str @ 15) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.settin…
17:19 felher r: my @a = 1,2; say @a.WHAT;
17:19 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
17:19 felher r: my @a = 1,2; print @a.WHAT.gist;
17:20 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«Array()»
17:20 felher jaffa4: here you go :)
17:20 * felher has to leave now
17:20 PerlJam r: my @a = 1,2;  print @a.WHAT;
17:20 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $v of type Array in string context  in block  at /tmp/ZnPEkmapiT:1␤␤»
17:20 felher bye folks :)
17:20 PerlJam ah, print is broken?
17:20 felher PerlJam: I think the problem is that print uses .Str and say uses .gist
17:21 * felher -> afk
17:21 jnthn Behaving as designed.
17:21 jaffa4 n: my @a = 1,2;  print (\@a).WHAT.gst;
17:21 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method gst in type Capture␤  at /tmp/plXqWvcpYU line 1 (mainline @ 5) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4211 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4212 (module-CORE @ 578) ␤  at /hom…
17:21 jaffa4 n: my @a = 1,2;  print (\@a).WHAT.gist;
17:21 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«Capture()»
17:21 PerlJam jnthn: so the message is just LTA?
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17:21 jnthn Not that I really like the design though. I wish say was print + \n
17:22 jnthn PerlJam: The message is correct too.
17:22 jnthn Oh, the $v is dubious...
17:22 PerlJam aye, that one
17:22 jnthn But the uninitialized bit is right.
17:22 PerlJam right
17:23 jnthn ooh, venue for YAPC::EU next year is picked :)
17:28 jaffa4 Do you know how to  use exceptions in Perl6?
17:28 jnthn Well, I gave a talk on them... :)
17:28 jnthn http://jnthn.net/papers/2012-yapceu-exceptions.pdf
17:31 jaffa4 ok
17:34 jaffa4 so I can use note or die to raise an exception right?
17:34 jnthn die
17:34 jnthn Using "note" just writes to stderr
17:36 jaffa4 I asw an example as elsewhere
17:36 jaffa4 exception n;
17:38 jaffa4 r: exception n;
17:38 p6eval rakudo f81716: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&n' called (line 1)␤Undefined routine '&exception' called (line 1)␤»
17:38 dalek Perlito: caf3b30 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (4 files):
17:38 dalek Perlito: perlito5 - parser - fix "sub _" should be in package "main"
17:38 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/caf3b30085
17:40 dalek rakudo/nom: 9f32f0a | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
17:40 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix thinko in shell words post-processing.
17:40 dalek rakudo/nom:
17:40 dalek rakudo/nom: This fixes the TODO'd tests for << foo "bar $baz" >> style things.
17:40 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9f32f0af8a
17:40 dalek roast: 747a9d6 | jnthn++ | S02-literals/quoting.t:
17:40 dalek roast: Rakudo unfudge.
17:40 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/747a9d6d07
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17:43 dalek Perlito: 94163c8 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | TODO-perlito5:
17:43 dalek Perlito: perlito5 - parser - tweak TODO list
17:43 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/94163c8188
17:46 nyuszika7h joined #perl6
17:47 jaffa4 jnthn: IS there forward declaration in Perl6?
17:50 jnthn r: class A { ... }; sub foo(A $x) { }; class A { method m() { } }; # things like this?
17:51 p6eval rakudo f81716:  ( no output )
17:52 dalek rakudo/nom: 0961b71 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
17:52 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix issue that blocked q:c working.
17:52 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0961b71ea5
17:52 jaffa4 jnthn: yes
17:53 jnthn jaffa4: Yes, it's supported, but with some limitations (like, if you stub a type then try to inherit from it you'll hit issues)
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18:12 dalek Perlito: de61f09 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (3 files):
18:12 dalek Perlito: perlito5 - parser - remove old Perl6 code
18:12 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/de61f09606
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18:30 grondilu r: say constant tau = 2*pi
18:30 p6eval rakudo 0961b7: OUTPUT«6.28318530788496␤»
18:31 grondilu Should Perl6 follow the "Pi is wrong" movement and define a tau constant?
18:31 grondilu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ofi_L6eAo
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18:37 pmurias grondilu: no
18:38 grondilu why not?  It would be cool.  And tau is not much used anyway.  It won't pollute the namespace much.
18:41 [Coke] seems like it would be perlier to have both Pi and Tau.
18:42 grondilu agreed.  A nice application of the "There is more than one way to do it"
18:43 masak evenin', #perl6
18:44 grondilu Also, for a post-modern language, being aware of such a recent mathematic controversy should be natural.
18:45 masak I would rather see a Perl 6 without a tau constant.
18:45 masak if you really care, push a Constant::Tau module to modules.perl6.org.
18:46 [Coke] do we have a Pi constant?
18:46 masak if the Perl 6 community finds it's really useful to Perl 6 programmers, we might lift it into core.
18:46 masak [Coke]: yes.
18:46 masak nr: say pi
18:47 p6eval rakudo 0961b7: OUTPUT«3.14159265394248␤»
18:47 p6eval ..niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897931␤»
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18:47 masak or did you really mean "Pi" with a capital P?
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18:47 [Coke] phenny: ask au if she can fix Pugs on feather.
18:47 phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when au is around.
18:47 masak in that case, "no". :)
18:47 cotto r: say pie
18:47 p6eval rakudo 0961b7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&pie' called (line 1)␤»
18:47 leont left #perl6
18:47 * [Coke] sees jnthn trying to sneak rakudo over the 24100 limit.
18:48 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
18:49 jnthn [Coke]: That one probably did it, but justin case I'm working on S03-operators/subscript-adverbs.t :)
18:50 jnthn Up to 29 out of 64 passing so far...
18:51 dalek rakudo/nom: ba05e3c | jnthn++ | src/core/Any.pm:
18:51 dalek rakudo/nom: First crack at :k, :kv and :p on .[ ].
18:51 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ba05e3c51d
18:52 jnthn Time to cook some nomz...
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18:53 masak jnthn++ # adverbs galore
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19:00 masak grondilu: before we leave the topic completely: I find the arguments for tau to be... not convincing.
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19:04 [Coke] I actually found the arguments to be compelling; the trick is weighing them against the status quo, which is "eh, good good enough."
19:07 [Coke] s/good//
19:07 grondilu I totally remember that when I learned trigonometry when I was young, I was confused by the choice of a demi-circle.  I always had to do some intellectual gymmnastics to figure out where sin and cosin had their extremum.  I've been reading jjtauday.com/tau-manifesto and I've been very quickly convinced.
19:08 * doy agrees with [Coke]
19:09 grondilu The area of a disk being 1/2 tau r**2 has a direct geometric interpretation, since an infinitesimal sector is triangular, thus the 1/2 factor.
19:09 grondilu ^ only this could be enough to convince me.
19:09 pmurias grondilu: is tau used by a lot of people?
19:09 grondilu pmurias: Is perl6 used by a lot of people?
19:10 * grondilu does not believe in argumentum ad populum
19:10 flussence Is PHP used by a lot of people?
19:10 grondilu "argumetum ad populum" sucks
19:11 pmurias for inclusion into the setting they are valid
19:11 pmurias we want things which are commonly used in the setting
19:12 masak pmurias++
19:13 masak also, a constant with a manifesto is likely to be cute today and silly in ten years.
19:13 pmurias and it only saves one character
19:13 pmurias tau as opposed to 2*pi
19:14 grondilu no.  It saves "constant tau = 2*pi" for those who want to use tau.
19:15 masak grondilu: all is fair if you predeclare.
19:15 grondilu predeclare?
19:15 pmurias declare before usage
19:15 masak load a module. or declare the constant in your program.
19:16 grondilu yeah but I'll have to do it.  That's unfair compared to pi user who can use pi straight away.
19:17 masak no, it's not unfair. pi is a million times more commonly used than tau.
19:17 grondilu ok, I was exagerating a bit.
19:18 masak "constant tau = 2*pi" seems to me to be a very fair huffmanization for tau enthusiasts.
19:18 masak look how easy it is to define tau! nice!
19:19 grondilu Perl aims to be consise.   I can't be concise if I want to use tau since I'll have to predeclare it.  I'll have to use pi.
19:19 masak you can even do it with the greek letter itself, τ.
19:19 masak grondilu: correct.
19:19 masak nr: constant τ = 2 * pi; say τ
19:19 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«6.2831853071795862␤»
19:19 p6eval ..rakudo ba05e3: OUTPUT«6.28318530788496␤»
19:21 japhb_ joined #perl6
19:21 masak grondilu: you're essentially complaining that your toy constant isn't included in core. when all you have to do to use it is to declare one line at the beginning of your program. that's a lot less than most other proponents of missing paradigms have to declare.
19:21 japhb_ use MoMathMoProblems;
19:21 masak just think of all the disgruntled Prolog programmers who have to put all their backtracking logic into grammars...
19:22 masak dude, your tau problems pale in comparison!
19:22 grondilu then if it's such a little piece of code, why not just put it in the core?
19:22 grondilu I mean, your argument goes both ways.
19:24 masak I can think of a lot of mathematical constants I'd sooner have in core.
19:24 sorear o/
19:24 masak sorear! \o/
19:24 flussence argumentam ad nauseam sucks.
19:24 grondilu well, I won't insist any more.
19:25 masak the golden ratio. the Euler–Mascheroni constant γ. Conway's constant λ. Khinchin's constant K.
19:25 masak all those *add* something. tau doesn't; we already have pi, and tau can be (very trivially) defined from it. the above ones can't.
19:25 grondilu I mean, you guys do such an awesome work with perl6, I really don't want to upset you.  So I don't mind at all if you don't want to put tau.
19:26 masak I'm not upset. :)
19:26 masak I enjoy arguing against such what I percieve to be a very silly and easily refuted request.
19:26 masak but my word isn't law. if you already have a commitbit, you can patch in tau at this moment into Rakudo.
19:27 masak or into the spec.
19:27 masak if you don't have a commitbit, someone could give you one. or you could send a pull request.
19:27 masak (but I still think the idea of putting tau into Perl 6 is silly.)
19:28 masak s/such what/what/
19:28 sorear masak! \o/
19:28 diakopter I thought the symbol tau could already mean several other things
19:28 flussence .oO( even Rust doesn't have it, and their language revolves around 1-character-shorter abbreviations... )
19:29 sorear (does grondilu have an active CLA?
19:29 sorear )
19:29 masak diakopter: Wikipedia says it's a protein, a lepton, a constellation, a mutation in a kinase, and an UML modeling tool. :)
19:30 sorear well \gamma means even more things so that's hardly an argument against
19:30 sorear I'm a fan of \tau but I think that adding it to the core today would be....more confusing than helpful.
19:31 doy nr: say π
19:31 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤     'Ï€' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1437 (die @ 5) â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 37) â�¤  at /home/p…
19:31 p6eval ..rakudo ba05e3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&π' called (line 1)␤»
19:31 masak sorear: ooh, that's another argument against, actually. adding tau and then having to explain it to everyone would heap on the already big pile of having to explain how and why Perl 6 is different from everything else.
19:32 sorear masak: that's what I meant by what I just said
19:32 sorear ^_^
19:32 masak yes, I thought so.
19:33 masak also, is that the first time I see you make an Asian smiley...?
19:35 * [Coke] is not sure that calling tau "silly" helps me take masak's position more seriously.
19:36 [Coke] but then, I have a commitbit, and I'm not going to bother adding it.
19:38 masak [Coke]: sorry. "silly" was the first word that came to mind. maybe I mean something more like "not pulling its weight in core".
19:38 japhb_ I joked earlier, but I'm serious in saying that if we have to pull in the Set operators using a module, we might as well have a module for loads of useful constants.
19:39 japhb_ .oO( aleph-null?)
19:39 masak sure. does it have to be core?
19:39 japhb_ The Set operators are core, correct?  (Not using this as an argument, just trying to remember)
19:39 masak then again, I saw expmod and is-prime flash by among the spec commits, and I'm not sure those are pulling their weight in core either...
19:39 japhb_ core as in, the module is shipped with base Perl 6
19:40 masak japhb_: right.
19:40 rjbs Does one report Rakudo bugs at Github?
19:40 masak rjbs: no, rakudobug@perl.org
19:41 rjbs Thanks.
19:41 pmurias re core module, aren't we moving away from shipping a predefined set of core modules?
19:41 japhb_ I almost think having such a module as core is valuable in that you don't end up with a lot of not-quite-correct definitions.  But on the flip side, you prevent everyone from choosing the definition that makes sense for them depending on their use case ... as a Num, as a FatRat to some crazy precision, as a continued fraction
19:41 [Coke] rjbs: it's pretty much exactly like perlbug@...
19:42 masak pmurias: the notion seems to have re-appeared as the core grew into what it is today.
19:43 japhb_ Setting v. core module v. ecosystem is a hard decision to make sometimes.  OK, more than sometimes.
19:43 masak &
19:44 rjbs [Coke]: I just sent it a message.
19:45 rjbs [Coke]: Where will that turn up?  rt.perl6.org sent me to perl6.org
19:45 japhb_ List::Util and Time::HiRes I think were pretty clearly obvious candidates for inclusion in the setting.  But I already wonder about stuff like output capturing, IO to strings, etc.
19:45 rjbs Aha!  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=115658
19:46 pmurias japhb_: what I'm unsure does a core module vs ecosystem distinction make sense
19:47 [Coke] rjbs: we use the same RT instance p5 does. just a different queue.
19:47 rjbs Yeah, I realized that when I remembered moderating messages to it :)
19:47 [Coke] p5, rakudo, TPF grants... one more I have access to whose name eludes me.
19:48 japhb_ pmurias, I think so, but it is a fuzzy boundary.  I'm thinking about where I would draw the line.
19:53 japhb_ I guess my feelings come down to: Setting: gets used quite often (sometimes surpisingly so), or needs to be on chummy terms with the compiler in order to be implemented efficiently or at all.  Core module: Used often, but has a more specific set of use cases (like Set operators), and does *not* need to be chummy with the compiler to work at all, but may need to be chummy to be efficient or for bootstrapping purposes (Test).  Ecosystem: Used for very spe
19:53 japhb_ cific purposes and/or will work across any compiler that supports the full spec.
19:53 japhb_ But that feels like I've only examined one dimension, and there are more to be looked at.
19:54 japhb_ Term::ANSIColor feels very ecosystem, even though I use it all the time.
19:55 armitage81 joined #perl6
19:55 japhb_ The only argument for pulling it into core is if the debugger got pulled in.  :-)
19:56 cognominal joined #perl6
20:01 PacoAir joined #perl6
20:01 jnthn The debugger won't get pulled in, I don't think.
20:02 jnthn Because in the long run it'll probably be *a* debugger.
20:02 jnthn Also because having it in the ecosystem is a good way of knowing we're keeping our compiler architecture modular enough.
20:04 sorear +1
20:10 pmurias jnthn: pulled in = living in the rakudo repo?
20:11 jnthn Presumably if we call something core then it lives in the repo, yeah.
20:11 jnthn Hmm
20:11 jnthn is +(@array[0]:k), 1,
20:11 jnthn ":k on an array returned an one-elem array";
20:12 jnthn This test somehow expects :k to behave like a slice would
20:12 jnthn However, normal array indexing of a single thing hands back the thing, not a parcel of things.
20:13 jnthn The spec doesn't say the adverb cases should be unlike normal indexing in this regard.
20:13 jnthn Anyone want to argue the spectest is correct?
20:15 jnthn hm, the spectest isn't even internally consistent. It expects @array[0]:p to return the Pair directly
20:21 PerlJam I think perhaps the spec needs some clearer language.
20:22 skids jnthn: maybe the spectest is more confused about (item) collapsing than the behavior it is testing.
20:22 jnthn PerlJam: Perhaps yes ;)
20:24 PerlJam S02:2451 "(Of course, any of these forms also work in the degenerate case of a slice containing a single index.)"
20:24 PerlJam The preceding examples all return parcels, why not the degenerate case?
20:25 jnthn PerlJam: Because normal array indexing doesn't.
20:25 jnthn r: my @a = 1,2; say @a[0].WHAT; say @a[0,1].WHAT
20:25 p6eval rakudo ba05e3: OUTPUT«Int()␤Parcel()␤»
20:25 PerlJam I'm just saying the language isn't exactly definitive.  It can be read multiple ways.
20:26 jnthn PerlJam: Yes, but at lesat choose a consistent way for :k and :p
20:26 PerlJam oh, indeed.  Something is definitely broken there :)
20:26 skids r: my @a = 2,2,3; print +@a[0..0], +@a[0]
20:26 p6eval rakudo ba05e3: OUTPUT«12»
20:28 dalek rakudo/nom: a5c0b31 | jnthn++ | src/core/Any.pm:
20:28 dalek rakudo/nom: Give :v on slices the expected semantics.
20:28 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a5c0b31e67
20:30 masak r: my @a = 2, 2, 3; say +@a[(0,)]
20:30 p6eval rakudo ba05e3: OUTPUT«1␤»
20:31 dalek roast: 83f68a3 | jnthn++ | S02-literals/quoting.t:
20:31 dalek roast: Another unfudge.
20:31 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/83f68a3a9c
20:31 dalek roast: 1ec7050 | jnthn++ | S03-operators/subscript-adverbs.t:
20:31 dalek roast: Test treatment of single indexes consistently.
20:31 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1ec7050343
20:33 * PerlJam wonders about the extra parens.
20:33 jnthn OK, now we pass all the .[] adverb tests in that file. Guess now we need the .{} ones...
20:35 masak \o/
20:35 masak r: my @a = 2, 2, 3; say +@a[0,]
20:35 p6eval rakudo ba05e3: OUTPUT«1␤»
20:36 masak PerlJam: turns out the extra parens were superstitious.
20:36 PerlJam perhaps it's just a really strong meme that () means "list"  (LISP has infected our collective brains)
20:38 masak aye.
20:38 masak well, .() does sort of mean "argument list" ;)
20:40 skids my @a = 2, 2, 3; say +@a[()], +@a[] # except when they aren't
20:41 diakopter s/brains/brain/
20:42 wk joined #perl6
20:43 masak skids: well, those *would* mean the same if zen slices weren't specialized syntax.
20:45 skids masak: Only people that construe and eval() codestrings will be menaced.  I shed no tears. :-)
20:47 vlixes joined #perl6
20:49 dalek roast: e789a62 | jnthn++ | S03-operators/subscript-adverbs.t:
20:49 dalek roast: Fix .{} tests like the .[] ones were.
20:49 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e789a6277f
20:53 bbkr joined #perl6
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: bd576ab | jnthn++ | src/core/Any.pm:
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: :k, :kv, :v and :p for .{} subscripting.
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bd576ab1c8
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: 09e308d | jnthn++ | t/spectest.data:
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Run S03-operators/subscript-adverbs.t.
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/09e308da87
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: ca9c30d | jnthn++ | docs/ChangeLog:
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Update ChangeLog.
20:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ca9c30d8d2
20:54 rindolf joined #perl6
21:10 benabik_ joined #perl6
21:12 eternaleye joined #perl6
21:22 * skids ponders that the etymology of "subscript" in CS will become less obvious to future generations (unless a language that actually uses subscripts for indexing emerges)
21:23 PerlJam skids: why do you say that?
21:23 sorear skids: TeX uses [] to notate subscripts
21:24 skids Well, eventually I think a lot of math will end up being taught in code, rather than in typesetting.
21:24 sorear and if you read the literature subscripting is still in super-common use
21:25 skids The younger kids learn to use code, the more likely they will respond better to notations that utilize what they already know.
21:25 PerlJam skids: we just need to make sure that they learn math first  :)
21:26 skids I think that nus already left.
21:26 skids *bus
21:26 * sorear tries to figure out why x^(2*3^i) + x^3^i + 1 seems to be irreducable over GF(2) for all values of i (checked up to 10,000)
21:30 masak but i is a natural number, right?
21:31 sorear yes, natural number
21:32 masak n: say "x^({2 * 3**$_}) + x^{3 ** $_} + 1" for 1..5
21:32 p6eval niecza v22-19-gd874a8e: OUTPUT«x^(6) + x^3 + 1␤x^(18) + x^9 + 1␤x^(54) + x^27 + 1␤x^(162) + x^81 + 1␤x^(486) + x^243 + 1␤»
21:38 sorear also checked i=10^5, 10^6, 10^7 as singular values
21:38 sorear this problem is probably worth starting a blog over :p
21:39 masak heh :)
21:50 PacoAir joined #perl6
21:51 PacoAir joined #perl6
21:51 masak '♞, #perl6
21:54 cotto that's terrible
21:57 * japhb_ finds it interesting that masak identifies with the dark knight instead of the white knight ...
22:00 * flussence finds it interesting that I can make out that glyph even though it's a 4×6px smudge
22:01 * sorear haz a complete proof
22:20 colomon \o/, sorear
22:20 sorear o/ colomon
22:20 colomon what were you proving?
22:20 cotto japhb_, he doesn't want to get confused with whiteknight
22:23 sorear 13:26  * sorear tries to figure out why x^(2*3^i) + x^3^i + 1 seems to be  irreducable over GF(2) for all values of i (checked up to 10,000)
22:23 sorear e.g x^162 + x^81 + 1
22:24 sorear just a random little thing that's been bugging me all week.  I thought I'd mention it when masak brought up math
22:29 sorear dunno what to do with it now though.  I guess I should write it down
22:36 telex joined #perl6
22:38 [Coke] sure, blog it.
22:39 dalek perl6-roast-data: acd8ef1 | coke++ | / (3 files):
22:39 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
22:39 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/acd8ef1d2d
22:47 [Coke] ah. I can now see in the roast data that for 11/08 and /09 we were running against the same test suite.
22:47 [Coke] (and that the 09 run didn't include jnthn's unfudges in roast.)
22:48 jnthn Yeah, but it passed 24100 thanks to the INET ones not failing... :)
22:48 jnthn Think I won another 69 today overall. :)
22:50 japhb_ Go jnthn, go jnthn
22:51 japhb_ jnthn++ # Keeps giving me good enough reasons to recompile everything, even on this slow box.  :-)
23:06 wamba joined #perl6
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23:27 tokuhiro_ joined #perl6
23:45 leont_ joined #perl6
23:48 leont_ joined #perl6
23:59 jnthn 'night, #perl6

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