Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2012-12-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:12 jnthn 'night, #perl6
00:13 diakopter o/
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00:28 tomgj Howdy.  I've been having some trouble piecing together from public documents what kind of things it should be possible to declare in signatures using "returns" or -->
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00:29 tomgj This (admittedly marked out of date) describes it being very featureful http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/return.html
00:30 tomgj but all the examples in roast an in the synopses seem to be limited to a single typed value.
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00:55 [Coke] tadzik: tadzik
00:56 [Coke] tadzik: it is no longer broken. I cannot reproduce the error.
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01:48 [Coke] me;
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01:56 colomon [Coke]: you;
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02:33 timotimo phenny: tell moritz that it'd be nice if you could click "summary" and then "previous page" in the irclog without having to re-click "summary" for every day
02:33 phenny timotimo: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
02:35 timotimo also, it seems like the effort to summarise the perl6 channel talk has kind of died down. probably because it's too much work?
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05:12 uvtc phenny: tell PerlJam thanks for the link to pmichaud's talk re. Lists and Parcels, though turns out that one was Part 2. I was looking for Part 1, which after a little bit of searching appears to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrfK1dtyD14
05:12 phenny uvtc: I'll pass that on when PerlJam is around.
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05:24 dalek mu: df6526c | (Herbert Breunung)++ | misc/perl6advent-2012/schedule:
05:24 dalek mu: Update misc/perl6advent-2012/schedule
05:24 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/df6526c2f4
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05:39 PerlJam phenny: tell uvtc, ah.  Thanks.  :-)
05:39 phenny PerlJam: I'll pass that on when uvtc is around.
05:39 phenny PerlJam: 05:12Z <uvtc> tell PerlJam thanks for the link to pmichaud's talk re. Lists and Parcels, though turns out that one was Part 2. I was looking for Part 1, which after a little bit of searching appears to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrfK1dtyD14
05:51 sbox hi. Any documentation on mutually recursive classes?
05:51 benabik It's a mistake, don't do it.  ;-)
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05:52 sbox let me clarify - class A has a method calling class B's constructor, and vice versa
05:52 sbox is that what you thought I meant?
05:53 benabik I thought I was being a small pain.  I think what you're looking for is a stub class.  class B {...}; class A { method foo() { B.new } }; class B { method bar { A.new } }  (IIRC)
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05:55 sbox ah cool. thanks :)
05:56 sbox benabik: is that sort of thing regarded as bad practice? What did you mean by "mistake"?
05:57 benabik sbox: I mostly meant that I have a poor sense of humor.  It's late.
05:57 sbox kk :P
05:57 benabik sbox: Although mutually dependent classes should be very carefully thought out.  Can get confusing easily.
05:58 benabik Stub classes, AFAIK, are just a useful kind of circularity saw not code smell.
06:06 moritz nr: say "I'm back (?)"
06:06 phenny moritz: 02:33Z <timotimo> tell moritz that it'd be nice if you could click "summary" and then "previous page" in the irclog without having to re-click "summary" for every day
06:06 p6eval rakudo 22518b, niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«I'm back (?)␤»
06:13 sorear mutually dependant classes are an excellent example of (code smell) \ (always wrong)
06:14 sorear in particular it's hard to do anything in the setting without them
06:19 sbox what do you mean by "in the setting"?
06:19 moritz the setting is the the collection of built-in stuff (routines, classes, roles etc.) that live in an outer scope of your program
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06:34 * jokar hello all
06:34 jokar what is perl6 and what is difference between perl 5 and 6?
06:34 sorear hello jokar
06:34 jokar sorear:  Hi
06:35 jokar sorear: why Perl 6 have own web site but Perl 5 not?
06:35 sorear perl 6 is a comprehensive overhaul of perl 5, a new language from the same people intended to remove as many as possible of perl 5's warts
06:35 PerlJam jokar: They are different languages that have some superficial syntactic similarity, but the same deep philosophical underpinings
06:35 PerlJam jokar: Perl 5 has perl.org and perl.com
06:36 jokar PerlJam: it is loke python 2 and 3?
06:36 jokar like*
06:36 jokar PerlJam: Python 3X is a new version of Python 2X
06:36 sorear like, but more so.
06:37 PerlJam jokar: no.  The change differential is greater between Perl 5 and Perl 6 than between Python 2 and Python 3
06:37 sorear compared to p6, py3k is very conservative
06:37 jokar your mean is we have two version of perl
06:37 jokar a line is Perl 5 and another line is Perl 6
06:37 PerlJam jokar: two languages that are similar but different.
06:37 PerlJam jokar: Just like C and C++ (for instance)
06:37 slayer101_ would you say perl6 is a superset of perl5? O.o
06:37 PerlJam jokar: or Lisp and Scheme
06:38 jokar PerlJam: How can i find Perl 6 developer?
06:38 PerlJam slayer101_: no, I wouldn't say that.
06:38 jokar I have some question about Perl6.org
06:38 PerlJam jokar: this is the place to ask.
06:38 jokar PerlJam: Can i send PM?
06:39 sbox slayer101_: syntax for regexes, bitwise operators, loops and if statetments (to name a few) has changed from perl5.
06:39 sorear jokar: most of the people in this room are perl 6 developers
06:39 PerlJam jokar: you can, but I'll likely ignore it :)  What's wrong with talking on channel?
06:39 slayer101_ sbox: didnt know that
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06:40 slayer101_ how far along is perl6 these days?
06:45 PerlJam slayer101_: There are about 4 implementations in various stages of development.
06:45 PerlJam slayer101_: the two most active ones are Rakudo and Niecza
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06:46 PerlJam slayer101_: actually, after thinking about it some, I might say that Perl 6 is an ideological superset of Perl 5.   Perl 6 has more useful ideas packed into the language.
06:46 benabik PerlJam: + Pugs + ?
06:47 sorear jokar: try typing "/whois sorear" without quotes into irc
06:47 popl "/whois sorear" without quotes into irc
06:48 PerlJam benabik: perlito
06:48 jokar PerlJam: In your opinion we have not perl 7 in the next?
06:48 PerlJam jokar: parse error.
06:48 popl what does that even mean?
06:49 jokar PerlJam: How can i take a permission for reserve a perl6 domain for my country?
06:49 PerlJam er, what?
06:49 moritz jokar: just do it
06:49 sorear Ask someone from your country.
06:49 jokar If i reserve it, Is it illegal ?
06:50 sorear surely that depends on the laws of your country
06:50 sorear as a general rule, though, governments have been amazingly slow at regulating the DNS
06:50 jokar sorear: in your opinion all Perl user move to perl 6?
06:50 popl sorear: They need to understand it first.
06:52 jokar Is Perl 5 rare in the next?
06:52 popl next what?
06:52 jokar in the next year
06:52 sorear I think jokar is asking if perl 6 is going to replace perl 5 i the long term
06:53 sorear jokar: next year, perl 5 is pretty secure
06:53 popl jokar: I don't think it will.
06:53 PerlJam jokar: Are Scheme and Lisp both still around?  Perl 5 and Perl 6 will continue to coexist just like Lisp and Scheme or C and C++ , etc.
06:53 sorear jokar: perl 6 is not likely to replace perl 5 for most users for 5-10 years yet
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06:54 jokar PerlJam:  Perl 7?
06:54 PerlJam jokar: NST
06:55 sorear :L
06:55 PerlJam In 50 years or so I think Perl 6 will have replaced Perl 5 but mostly due to convergent evolution.
06:55 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
06:55 sorear (that was me attempting to exit vim and failing epically)
06:56 popl sorear: That word is obsolete.
06:57 popl It only shows up in Webster 1913.
06:57 sorear I use the words I want to use and they mean what I want them to mean.
06:57 popl What are you, Shakespeare?
06:58 PerlJam popl: Where's your implementation of Perl 6?  ;>
06:58 sorear Worse.  I'm a descriptive linguist.
06:58 pmichaud I believe it was the Queen of Hearts who said that.  :-)
06:59 pmichaud oh, wait, it was Humpty Dumpty
07:00 popl PerlJam: I haven't written it yet, duh.
07:00 popl sorear: neato
07:00 popl pmichaud: I didn't knwo Humpty Dumpty said anything at all.
07:01 sorear was Humpty Dumpty a Caroll character too?
07:01 pmichaud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_​Dumpty#In_Through_the_Looking-Glass
07:01 popl OH
07:01 popl There
07:01 sorear I thought that was one of the English folk songs from time immemorial
07:01 sorear I see
07:01 popl It is, sorear.
07:02 popl all the kings horses...
07:02 popl pmichaud: thanks
07:02 popl John Tenniel is great.
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07:19 sorear sbox_: hmm, do we need a P-box now?
07:20 sbox_ not sure why my name changed...
07:22 sbox sorear: haha. Actually my alias came about before I knew what s-boxes were.
07:27 sorear sbox: normal IRC behavior.  your connection was lost, so your client automatically reconnected under a different name.
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07:29 sbox ohnoes - my noobness is showing =/   :P
07:34 tadzik masak++ # nice post :)
07:34 tadzik good morning #perl6
07:37 * sorear hugs sbox
07:37 sorear good morning tadzik
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08:21 FROGGS morning
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08:39 kresike hello all you happy perl6 people
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08:41 FROGGS hi kresike
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08:42 kresike FROGGS, o/
08:43 kresike ööö, note to self, Ctrl+w works different in xchat than it does in vim :)
08:45 moritz Ctrl+w traditionally closes windows :-)
08:47 kresike obviously I need more coffee !
08:47 sorear hello all you kresikes
08:47 kresike sorear, o/ :)
08:48 hoelzro o/ #perl6
08:56 FROGGS hello all you happy moritzes, sorears and hoelzros ;o)
08:56 hoelzro ahoy FROGGS
08:58 Su-Shee good morning everyone :)
08:59 FROGGS brb # christmas brunch at $work
08:59 moritz good Su-Shee, morning
09:00 hoelzro morgen Su-Shee
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09:32 jnthn god morgen, #perl6 :)
09:32 hoelzro morning
09:34 hoelzro so I managed to get make install DESTDIR=$dir working with Rakudo * last night
09:34 hoelzro \o/
09:34 hoelzro but I've encountered a fun new issue...
09:35 jnthn yay, and uh-oh :)
09:35 hoelzro the PIR files generated from precompiling the modules have a bunch of .annotate statements in them pointing to the package staging directory instead of where they'll be residing on disk
09:35 hoelzro and they have hardcoded paths to their dependency PIR files
09:36 hoelzro ex. "/home/rob/packages/rakudo-star/pkg/usr/lib/pa​rrot/4.6.0/languages/perl6/lib/NativeCall.pir"
09:36 hoelzro (from DBD::mysql)
09:36 hoelzro so I'm wondering what would be the best way to solve that
09:36 hoelzro also, I think I'm going to have to make a few changes to NQP; namely, allowing a user to tell NQP where to find dynext files as well as library files
09:37 hoelzro this was the solution I had to resort to: https://github.com/hoelzro/rakudo-star/comm​it/977ee044e1bd04a9caae126001619ac4e75f1414
09:37 Su-Shee tadzik: I'm getting an error when installing panda: No such method 'path' for invocant of type 'Any'
09:38 Su-Shee panda is still THE module installer, isn't it? ;)
09:41 moritz it is :-)
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09:43 Su-Shee and it should work with any of the last let's say three rakudo stars?
09:44 moritz well, each rakudo star comes with its own panda
09:44 moritz and the shipped panda should work with the star it came with
09:44 Su-Shee oh I already have panda!? ok.
09:44 jnthn hoelzro: The .annotate stuff probably doesn't keep things from working since it's just used for error reporting. Where are you seeing the dependency paths?
09:45 jnthn When I look at the compiled output for module loading it hasn't got hardcoded paths.
09:46 hoelzro jnthn: I'm on a different machine at the moment, but I'll try to reproduce
09:46 Su-Shee now that looks better: ==> Succesfully installed XML::Parser::Tiny
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09:47 hoelzro huh.  apparently my fix for Rakudo * doesn't work on OS X
09:48 hoelzro because of the case insensitive FS
09:48 hoelzro well, all the more reason to add that feature to NQP =)
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09:50 Su-Shee masak_: a little Text::CSV problem.. http://scsys.co.uk:8002/219706
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09:56 Su-Shee hm. all modules but two failed so far to install :(
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10:04 felher r: say "hello #perl6"
10:04 felher Hm, something's wrong.
10:04 sorear felher: p6eval is on the other side of the network
10:04 felher sorear: ah, okay :)
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10:12 hoelzro jnthn: [11:08:48] rhoelz@Robs-MacBook-Pro.local /tmp/staging/tmp/parrot/lib/4.​6.0/languages/perl6/lib/DBDish $ grep /tmp/staging mysql.pir  | grep -v annotate cur_sc."set_description"("/tmp/staging/tmp/parrot​/lib/4.6.0/languages/perl6/lib/DBDish/mysql.pm6")
10:12 hoelzro push $P5003, "/tmp/staging/tmp/parrot/lib/4.6.0/​languages/perl6/lib/NativeCall.pm6"
10:12 hoelzro oops
10:12 hoelzro dammit, I *tried* to paste a link!
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10:13 hoelzro http://scsys.co.uk:8002/219708
10:13 hoelzro jnthn: that's for you
10:13 hoelzro an example of hardcoded paths in PIR
10:13 hoelzro I know that .annotate probably won't break anything, but I'd like to fix that if possible
10:14 jnthn push $P5003, "/tmp/staging/tmp/parrot/lib/4.6.0/​languages/perl6/lib/NativeCall.pm6"
10:14 jnthn That's just pushing onto the string heap
10:15 jnthn And the set_description is also just error reporting data, I believe.
10:15 jnthn As in, I don't think they actually are used for lookup
10:15 jnthn Since the PIR is text you can always post-process the paths :P
10:15 jnthn I'm not immediately sure of a good solution
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11:24 hoelzro so I have an array of hashes (my @AoH)
11:24 hoelzro and I'd like to extract the value of a particular key from each hash
11:24 hoelzro @AoH>>.<id> doesn't seem to do the trick; why is that?
11:29 sorear hoelzro: the iteration recurses into the hash and applies .<id> to the individual values
11:29 hoelzro oh, I see
11:30 hoelzro it basically applies *.<id> to the flattened structure?
11:31 sorear yes
11:31 sorear (this is actually a bug, but a very long-standing one)
11:31 hoelzro oh, seriously? so what I wrote *should* work?
11:31 jnthn Yeah
11:32 jnthn Well, the full story is: we had it that way, then the spec changed to say it should recurse into things.
11:32 jnthn So Rakudo implemented that spec.
11:32 jnthn Then it was realized that this appraoch does indeed suck, so the spec changed AGAIN.
11:32 hoelzro heh
11:32 hoelzro well, at least you guys realized that the approach isn't very good!
11:33 jnthn So yeah, now things need updating in Rakudo again, and nobody got to it yet.
11:37 timotimo this jokar person totally was a SEO expert, judging from his quit message
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12:15 jnthn many errands &
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13:56 * jnthn back
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14:00 colomon phenny: tell sorear Big sale on dotTrace profiler today.  http://www.jetbrains.com/profiler/index.html Should I get it for Niecza development?  (Should I get one for you for Niecza development?)
14:00 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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15:03 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:04 jnthn morning, pmichaud o/
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15:31 hoelzro what exactly does {} <infixish> mean in a grammar?
15:31 hoelzro what's the {} for?
15:31 jnthn Terminating LTM
15:32 hoelzro sorry, LTM?
15:32 jnthn Longest Token Matching
15:32 hoelzro ah ha
15:32 jnthn Means that the <infixish> will not be considered when computing the longest prefix.
15:32 hoelzro I see
15:33 hoelzro but only <infixish>, rather than the rest of the pattern?
15:33 jnthn Well, the current scope
15:33 jnthn If it's in an alternation, it just means "the rest of the branch", for example
15:33 hoelzro ok
15:33 jnthn LTM works on alternation level and rule level
15:34 jnthn r: say 'abcd' ~~ / 'abc' | 'a' \w+ /
15:34 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«「abcd」␤␤»
15:34 jnthn r: say 'abcd' ~~ / 'abc' | 'a' {} \w+ /
15:34 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«「abc」␤␤»
15:34 jnthn There's probably the simplest example to show the difference it makes.
15:35 hoelzro oh
15:35 hoelzro does that mean that | means the longest token?
15:35 hoelzro s/token/alternation/
15:35 benabik How does LTM break ties?
15:35 hoelzro say 'abcd' ~~ / 'a' | 'ab' | 'abc' /
15:35 hoelzro r: say 'abcd' ~~ / 'a' | 'ab' | 'abc' /
15:35 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«「abc」␤␤»
15:36 hoelzro interesting...I always thought it was first match
15:36 benabik It was in P5.  || is first match in P6
15:36 hoelzro ah
15:36 hoelzro that explains things
15:39 FROGGS r: say 'abcd' ~~ / 'a' || 'ab' || 'abc' /
15:39 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«「a」␤␤»
15:40 hoelzro I take that if an enthusiastic developer wanted to try and fix hyper operators wrt flattening, he/she should look at make_hyperop?
15:40 FROGGS || just matches the first thing it matches, || tries all things, and returns the longest one
15:40 FROGGS err
15:40 FROGGS s/^||/|/
15:40 jnthn hoelzro: More likely the code that needs to change is in src/core/metaops.pm
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15:41 hoelzro I see...
15:41 hoelzro thanks for the tip
15:41 FROGGS I'm talking crap, ignore me ;o)
15:41 jnthn hoelzro: The "real work" is implemented in Perl 6, the stuff at AST level is just turning operators into calls and closures.
15:41 hoelzro jnthn: Actions.pm *just* generates the AST, right?
15:42 benabik FROGGS: Thankfully | is smarter than try everything, thanks to LTM.  It only tries the things that are most likely to work.
15:43 jnthn hoelzro: "just", yes :)
15:44 FROGGS benabik: then I have to re-read the calender-post about that :o)
15:44 benabik It just does the hard work.  ;-)
15:45 jnthn In short, it analyzes the declarative prefixes and builds an NFA that can order the options and trim away the ones that won't work efficiently.
15:46 hoelzro jnthn: ok =) and then something walks the AST to generate the code, right? what class does the walking?  and instead of generating PIR directly, it makes calls to NQP stuff, right?
15:46 jnthn These days, those NFAs are built at compile time and serialized
15:46 jnthn hoelzro: The AST => PIR step lives in the NQP repository, in a class called QAST::Compiler
15:47 jnthn There's another class called QAST::Operations which handles compiling/mapping all the QAST::Op things.
15:47 jnthn There's a small intermediate layer between QAST and PIR called PIRT
15:47 hoelzro ok
15:47 jnthn Which makes QAST::Compiler just a tiny bit more pleasant to write.
15:48 jnthn Not sure if pmurias++'s work on JavaScript goes through an intermediate layer or if it just does QAST to JavaScript; think it may be the latter.
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15:48 hoelzro jnthn: thanks for taking the time to explain all this; I'll probably pick your brain some more later =)
15:48 jnthn np :)
15:48 jnthn The more people understand this stuff, the better. :)
15:49 hoelzro regarding that packaging issue, it looks like the /tmp/staging strings are pretty harmless.
15:49 benabik Increasing bus number good!
15:49 hoelzro I have a pull request for the packaging changes
15:49 hoelzro so if someone wants to merge it, Rakudo * 2012.12 should be easier to build into an RPM =)
15:50 benabik hoelzro++
15:50 jnthn pmichaud: I don't feel like the right person to look at the hoelzro++ pull request for ^^, if you have a moment to glance at it that'd be great. :)
15:50 pmichaud looking now
15:50 jnthn Thanks :)
15:51 pmichaud the first part of the request looked okay to me; I'm having to look deeper into the second commit
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15:52 isBEKaml OHHAI, #perl6!
15:52 lichtkind isBEKaml: cheers
15:53 jnthn o/ isBEKaml
15:53 pmichaud 977ee04 won't work on Windows
15:53 isBEKaml hello, lichtkind, jnthn
15:53 pmichaud so I'd have to reject the request based on that alone.
15:54 lichtkind looked anyone into https://gist.github.com/4341223 ?
15:56 pmichaud 428f9a8 looks okay to me at first glance
15:56 jnthn pmichaud: oh, ouch, that's actually the makefile we ship rather than just the one for building the star distro ain't it...
15:56 pmichaud jnthn: yes.
15:56 * jnthn got confused
15:56 jnthn I know that you can't do the release process on Windows, but yeah...this bit needs to work.
15:59 pmichaud anyway, I closed this pull request; reopen a new one when we have a better solution for the dynext stuff.
16:01 pmichaud maybe need the equivalent of a -L option for nqp
16:02 pmichaud (could even go into HLL::Compiler)
16:05 pmichaud looks like NQP already has a --module-path option, perhaps that could resolve the Perl6 part of the patch
16:07 timotimo is rakudo startup time comparatively good? just 'perl' starts up in an unmeasurable time, but perl6 has the object system and a couple of other things already at startup, while you'd have to wait for those to get use'd when you pull in most interesting perl modules...
16:08 pmichaud timotimo: when I did a comparison in June for YAPC::NA, Rakudo's startup time was favorable when one considered equivalent modules
16:08 timotimo wow, that's surprising. do you have a link?
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16:09 pmichaud lightning talk video at http://pmthium.com/2012/09/a-rakudo-performance/
16:09 timotimo thank you :)
16:09 pmichaud skip to 2:20 to see the startup stuff (but it makes more sense to view the whole take)
16:10 pmichaud s/take/talk
16:12 pmichaud I'm afk for a bit
16:17 timotimo i like that talk. but the video quality is horrible and the audio/video is desync, at least in my html5-video-firefox :|
16:17 kresike bye folks
16:21 pmichaud yeah, the audio/video was out of sync.  nothing I could do about it, short of trying to resync things.
16:22 pmichaud on the other hand, given that all of the talk videos did finally make it onto the web.... that's a lot better than has been the case for most yapc's
16:22 pmichaud so we should consider ourselves lucky that we have anything at all :)
16:26 timotimo :)
16:26 hoelzro =(
16:26 hoelzro it's a valid reason for rejection, though
16:27 hoelzro actually, I also think it won't work on OS X
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16:27 hoelzro maybe I'll add the necessary stuff to NQP and it will be ready by 2013.01
16:27 timotimo pmichaud: are you in theory able to re-upload that video? i might try my hand at kdenlive and put in less blurry slides, too
16:27 pmichaud timotimo: it's not my video
16:27 timotimo and move your head around a bit so it doesn't occlude text
16:27 timotimo in that case it may be an exercise in timewasting
16:27 timotimo oh well.
16:28 pmichaud Here's where I got the video from:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILWrbvI8Qfg
16:28 pmichaud all I did was trim out the part that was mine
16:28 timotimo ah, i see.
16:29 pmichaud it's possible I had some lossy conversion in the trimming... but I don't think there was much.
16:29 timotimo oh, it's on your youtube account, so you could, in theory, re-upload the trimmed version
16:29 pmichaud oh yes, I did upload the trimmed part
16:29 pmichaud hmmmm
16:29 timotimo ha! i clicked into the timeline and found you immediately
16:31 pmichaud yeah, you'd have more success quality-wise to grab the original from the yapcna account and trim from there than to have me do it and re-upload
16:31 pmichaud afk for a bit
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16:50 timotimo https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Ti​cket/Display.html?id=75640 - what exactly is the test supposed to test? that the code errors out when using nextsame? that {*} works in this case?
16:53 timotimo also wondering how to test 75710. i guess a basic regression test would require an eval (because it's a parse error, right?) of basically what's in the last reply to the ticket?
16:57 pmichaud gone for a while -- on way to airport
17:00 moritz timotimo: yes. eval_lives_ok is your friend
17:00 moritz (but leave out the say() in the code, it'll confuse the test harness)
17:00 timotimo sure
17:00 timotimo thank you :)
17:03 timotimo oh, interesting
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17:04 timotimo there is a test case here in S02-names/identifier.t that checks for "sub order" which could fail if rakudo confuses it with "or" - it says "identifiers whos prefix is an alphanumeric infix operator" and x belongs in that category, doesn't it?
17:09 dalek roast: 8625fc2 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S06-multi/proto.t:
17:09 dalek roast: test #76298: same-name proto/has.
17:09 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8625fc2520
17:09 dalek roast: f0fb59d | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S02-names/identifier.t:
17:09 dalek roast: test #75710: methods starting with x didn't work.
17:09 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f0fb59d351
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17:43 FROGGS jnthn: how do I iterate over hashes in nqp and print key/value?
17:51 jnthn nqp: my %h := nqp::hash(a => 1, b => 2); for %h { say($_.key ~ " = " ~ $_.value) }
17:51 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«1 = 2␤»
17:51 jnthn oops
17:51 jnthn nqp: my %h := nqp::hash('a', 1, 'b', 2); for %h { say($_.key ~ " = " ~ $_.value) }
17:51 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«a = 1␤b = 2␤»
17:51 jnthn Iteration was correct, got nqp::hash wrong :)
17:52 FROGGS thanks!
17:55 FROGGS so le debugging continues ;o)
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: fa84a4e | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (2 files):
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: extract rakudo-js leftovers
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/fa84a4e71e
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: ae8195c | (Paweł Murias)++ | runtime.js:
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: Add nqp::isinvokable, pass the newest test 11.
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/ae8195c149
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: 26c410e | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (2 files):
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: [nqp] refactor to give contexts and exceptions unique names
18:19 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/26c410e64d
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18:24 masak_ 'lo, #perl6
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18:25 japhb_ o/ masak
18:26 timotimo evening
18:26 FROGGS hi masak, japhb, timotimo
18:26 timotimo how does one get from creating test cases to improving rakudo run speed or fixing crazy semantics bugs or implementing missing features like .= on attributes?
18:27 japhb_ o/
18:28 japhb_ timotimo, I'd go for an intermediate level of making improvements to the setting.
18:28 japhb_ I'm currently at the boundary -- the changes I next need to make in the setting require some guts work.
18:28 masak rn: sub outer(&block) { my @*piles; &block() }; sub inner { say @*piles; CATCH { when /Dynamic/ { die "You can only use &inner in &outer" } } }; inner
18:28 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«You can only use &inner in &outer␤  in block  at /tmp/k0rKXNUqDv:1␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:10302␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7488␤  in sub inner at /tmp/k0rKXNUqDv:1␤  in block  at /tmp/k0rKXNUqDv:1␤␤»
18:28 p6eval ..niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
18:29 masak \o/
18:29 timotimo can you provide some examples for inbetween work? what improvements can still go into the setting?
18:29 masak rakudo++
18:29 masak sorear: that doesn't seem quite right.
18:29 masak sorear: shall I submit a nieczue?
18:29 jnthn o/ masak, japhb_
18:29 jnthn timotimo: Well, I recommend beer... :)
18:30 japhb_ timotimo: well for example, I have a long-standing spare-time project to get val() into Rakudo.  That involves both some work in the setting (some of which I've already done, like improving Str.Numeric), and other parts require some minor guts work (making a single variable that can box and unbox a string and some other value at the same time)
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18:32 jnthn timotimo: Probably the best thing to do is pick a task that interests you, then try and get somebody with a betting understanding to tell you how hard it actually is and give you ocme pointers.
18:32 japhb_ timotimo, also, you can add tests to perl6-bench to help find out-of-whack performance problems, and then profile rakudo, niecza, etc. to figure out what is burning CPU.
18:32 timotimo at this point i don't even know enough about perl6 to know what interests me :|
18:32 timotimo that seems interesting.
18:33 doy jnthn: by the way, is there a todo list or road map or anything for nqp?
18:33 timotimo is finding performance problems an intuition thing or pure luck?
18:34 japhb_ I'm soon going to be moving perl6-bench from my personal account to the perl6 org on github, but until that happens just fork and submit pull requests, if that's what you'd like to help with.  :-)
18:34 japhb_ timotimo, Some is just testing lots of combinations of basic things, some is people mentioning "Gosh, this should have been quick by any reasonable mental model, but DANG it was slow in practice."
18:35 timotimo i don't think i have a proper intuition for such speed things, unless they are really "DAYUM!" kind of deals. which i guess is what we're aiming for?
18:36 japhb_ Some is taking a slow-performing smallish script (like the rc-forest-fire test scripts in perl6-bench), and drilling down on pieces of it trying to find exactly what is causing the severe slowness.
18:36 japhb_ That's how I found that ^100 X ^100 is very slow in Rakudo
18:37 timotimo right. i think i remember something about junctions being super slow compared to equivalent if statements (i had $x & $y == -1|0|1 back then, which was ridiculously slow compared to if -1 <= $x <= 1 etc etc)
18:37 timotimo i may benchmark that to see if jnthns recent improvement to junctions changed that or if it was fixed in the mean time
18:37 japhb_ Also, comparing the performance envelope of Rakudo and Niecza has been very informative -- places where normally one or the other is slower by 2-5x, suddenly you find something where one is slower by 30x
18:38 japhb_ There is only one junction test in perl6-bench, many more welcome.  :-)
18:38 japhb_ Also, you can just play at the command line with little one-liners, and notice when you find some variant that changes a 2 second operation into a 2 minute operation.
18:39 timotimo hah, that would be lucky indeed
18:39 japhb_ Right now there are still enough areas where one or both implementations were in "correct now, fast later" mode that you'd be surprised.  :-)
18:40 japhb_ Especially things that you think from a theoretical point of view should be equivalent turn out not to be -- different ways of looping the same number of times.
18:40 japhb_ (for example)
18:41 timotimo is there a good pattern for doing one thing three different ways and timing them that is more lightweight than a benchmark framework?
18:41 timotimo like checking argv for "a", "b" or "c" and going a different route and calling shell-time on it?
18:41 japhb_ or times when your intuition tells you one thing, but it turns out to be the opposite (or different for Niecza and Rakudo, like concat-in-a-loop versus push-in-a-loop-and-join-at-the-end)
18:42 japhb_ You can certainly do that.
18:42 japhb_ Make sure your test cases are large enough that whatever overhead you introduce is down in the noise of timing the actual test case.
18:43 japhb_ (And small enough that you don't swap your box -- I was reminded of that one rather spectacularly a few days ago.)
18:45 japhb_ Also, one of the things I added to perl6-bench not too long ago was the ability to specify running only particular tests out of the whole suite.
18:45 japhb_ That made a HUGE difference for my productivity when working out new test cases.
18:45 japhb_ Especially since some of the tests on some compilers are REALLY SLOW.
18:48 japhb_ WTH?  I'm trying to nail down a problem with panda not bootstrapping properly after a Rakudo rebuild (which takes a LONG time on this old box), and I swear it's almost random.
18:48 * japhb_ wonders if it's actually hitting an OOM somewhere and it depends on what else I'm running at the time.
18:48 japhb_ Hmmm ...
18:49 moritz r: class A { has $.x = "abc"; method set { $!x .= uc } }; say A.new.set
18:49 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«ABC␤»
18:49 moritz timotimo: .= seems to work on attributes
18:49 * japhb_ launches a couple more memory-hungry apps and rebuilds again
18:49 timotimo oh, no i meant something more like this:
18:50 timotimo r: class B {}; class A { has A $.x .= new }; A.new;
18:50 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Cannot use .= to initialize an attributeâ�¤at /tmp/o4Dycyg8yd:1â�¤------> [32mclass B {}; class A { has A $.x .= new[33mâ��[31m }; A.new;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        method argumentsâ�¤Â»
18:50 timotimo so, my @coords = -50..50 X -50..50 isn't lazy?
18:51 moritz no, assignment to arrays is only lazy when they are infinite
18:51 japhb_ timotimo, if you bind it with := it should be
18:51 timotimo oh, i see
18:51 moritz timotimo: then it's a three-stop process: 1) look at what ordinary attribute initialization does 2) find out where the error message comes from 3) apply 1) to the location of 2)
18:52 timotimo now i'm getting a use of uninitialized variable $a but i have no mention of $a anywhere o_O
18:53 moritz then it's use of an undfined value, where it's picking up the wrong variable name
18:53 moritz either we need to fix it, or drop the reporting of the variable name
18:53 moritz it's rather confusing when it goes wrong
18:55 timotimo should i try to golf it?
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18:57 timotimo r: my @the-list = 1..2; my $the-val = @the-list[10]; given $the-val { when 10 { say "oops" } };
18:57 moritz no
18:57 p6eval rakudo 22518b: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/cGBOCgY3na:1␤␤»
18:58 moritz there many know instances of that error
18:59 jnthn argh, internet fail...
18:59 * jnthn back now
19:00 masak welcome back, jnthn's internet
19:01 jnthn doy: Not for NQP at this point, no. For better or worse, NQP and the various things in the compiler toolchain improve as Rakudo needs them to improve.
19:02 jnthn doy: I'd love for NQP to get emphasis/tuits to make it a strong product in its own right; it's just a resource issue really.
19:02 jnthn Or resource allocation, anyways...
19:02 doy jnthn: you had mentioned things about making nqp backend-independent and such
19:02 jnthn doy: Yes, that's one of the "we want it for Rakudo" things :)
19:03 doy i'm interested in doing things with nqp, but less interested in being tied to parrot
19:03 jnthn *nod*
19:04 jnthn I'm fairly optimistic we'll get to an NQP on JVM within the next couple of months.
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19:06 doy that would be pretty sweet
19:07 doy are there plans for a c backend?
19:07 diakopter I'm sure someone's working on one somewhere
19:07 jnthn heh :)
19:07 FROGGS that would be sweet (and fast, and a lot more work)
19:08 jnthn What FROGGS said :)
19:08 diakopter MOAR WORK
19:08 moritz parrot kinda is a C backend for NQP
19:08 jnthn JVM first. Going from 1 to 2 is the biggest step.
19:08 doy jnthn: true enough
19:08 jnthn 2 to 3 will be work but less
19:09 timotimo oh, i was thinking "this is actually quite fast!" but i was just measuring the startup time >_>
19:10 jnthn timotimo: as a general note, working on trying to improve speed can be tricky in so far as it's easy to make things wronger as well as faster.
19:11 moritz it's easier to focus on features first
19:11 doy jnthn: so, i guess what i was originally asking is, if i'm interested in getting these sorts of things working, what can i do to help?
19:11 doy (:
19:12 timotimo so, $x & $y == -1|0|1 and $x & $y ~~ -1..1 are about the same speed (60 seconds vs 52 seconds), but if statements are way faster (8.5 seconds both)
19:12 timotimo the if statements being if -1 <= $x <= 1 and -1 <= $y <= 1
19:12 timotimo is this a valuable find?
19:13 jnthn doy: Well, I wrote https://github.com/jnthn/nqp-jv​m-prep/blob/master/docs/LHF.md for providing some easy jumping in points on the JVM stuff.
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19:15 masak djanatyn! \o/
19:15 timotimo mildly unsurprisingly, if -1 <= ($a & $b) <= 1 is about 35 seconds, so in between
19:15 timotimo o/ djanatyn
19:16 FROGGS timotimo: what you propose might be the job of the optimizer: convert these checks to faster forms in bolean context... (you still need to create ranges if you want to store -1..1 in an array)
19:17 djanatyn masak: hey! :)
19:17 djanatyn timotimo: hello!
19:17 moritz masak: how's the rakudo release coming along?
19:18 timotimo FROGGS: i don't think i understand what you mean with "to store -1..1 in an array"?
19:18 moritz my @a = -1 .. 1; # you can't optimize out the Range the same way that you could for $x ~~  -1 .. 1
19:18 FROGGS right
19:19 timotimo ah, OK
19:20 masak moritz: I'm gonna do some $dayjob, then I'll enter us into releng mode.
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19:20 FROGGS fiddling with the optimizer might be a nice job, had no time to have a closer look at it
19:20 timotimo in jnthn++'s talk about optimizing rakudo performance it seemed like "fun" :)
19:21 FROGGS ya, jnthn is a hacker by heart, thats all fun to him I suppose *gg*
19:21 timotimo :D
19:22 moritz last I looked, the optimizer wasn't trivial code, but it wasn't opaque either
19:22 timotimo so jnthn had PIR code of what he was optimizing on the slides. is there an easy way to obtain such code from any random rakudo run?
19:22 jnthn Also, there's not a huge amount of optimizer code at the moment.
19:23 jnthn timotimo: Well, the PIR code isn't what gets transformed, it's more that I was showing the results of the optimization on the output
19:23 jnthn --target=pir shows you the output
19:23 timotimo oh, ok
19:23 timotimo is that a good thing to look at, though?
19:23 jnthn But it's transforming at AST level
19:24 timotimo or should i do --target=past instead?
19:24 jnthn --target=pir is probably less verbose
19:24 jnthn to be honest, I only look at those two as fairly last resorts when fixing things
19:25 jnthn But for learning what is going on, they can be handy I think
19:25 timotimo thank you :)
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19:33 diakopter wait, did the world end yet
19:33 jnthn diakopter: No, be patient.
19:34 masak diakopter: I hear it's already started to end in Asia.
19:34 FROGGS in which timezone will that happen?
19:34 masak it's an incremental roll-out.
19:34 FROGGS alright
19:34 FROGGS hehe
19:35 jnthn Gee, I bet Samoa are regretting their time zone change now. They would had a whole extra day of world if they hadn't done that. :P
19:35 timotimo hm, so actually this is two different things. one is turning $x ~~ -1..1 into -1 <= $x <= 1 in boolean context and the other is doing autothreading at compile-time. does the latter make sense?
19:36 FROGGS jnthn: well, they would have christmas one day early, thats not that bad
19:36 timotimo er, not even "in boolean context", that already is boolean context
19:36 jnthn -1 <= $x <= 1 doesn't involve auto-threading
19:36 jnthn There's no junctions there.
19:36 timotimo jnthn: yes, but $x & $y ~~ -1..1 does
19:36 jnthn That's a chained comparision.
19:36 jnthn Oh, in that case there's a junction, yes.
19:38 timotimo would probably be a job better suited for the autothreader?
19:39 jnthn That will hit auto-threading at some point, yes
19:39 jnthn To see what "the autothreader" actually means, look in src/core/Junction.pm :)
19:40 colomon surely the world must be ending on Mayan Standard Time?
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19:42 timotimo jnthn: consult this helpful table of measurements: http://t.h8.lv/table.txt
19:43 jnthn timotimo: Is that a Rakudo from before or after I optimized the auto-threader? :)
19:44 timotimo after, it's been compiled yesterday i think.
19:44 jnthn ok
19:44 timotimo This is perl6 version 2012.11-88-g22518b8 built on parrot 4.10.0 revision RELEASE_4_10_0
19:44 jnthn The top case used to be WAY slower
19:44 jnthn I think part of the problem is that the sheer overhead of calling the auto-threader is what pushes up the time here.
19:45 timotimo do you think it's sensible to try to use the optimiser to go from the 34s line to the 24s one automatically?
19:48 jnthn I think if we're going to do things where we reduce simple junctions, we want to just rewrite the junctions away altogether.
19:49 timotimo so you're suggesting if it's known that the junction object doesn't "escape" to transform the AST into a big blown up logical statement?
19:49 jnthn $x == -1|0|1 ==> $x == -1 || $x == 0 || $x == 1
19:50 jnthn I think that's likely to get the biggest win and be most realistic to implement.
19:50 timotimo is there a way to prototype this transformation in perl6 with actual data before going at the real optimizer code?
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19:51 timotimo compile cycles on this laptop are quite drawn-out and i'm looking to try to do this on a train ride tomorrow :)
19:54 jnthn timotimo: I can't think of anything quite close enough to give a very useful indication...
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19:55 timotimo hm, maybe this would be an interesting project for me. a past (qast? what's the difference?) transformation playground. seems quite gutsy (and guts-y, too), though for a beginner
19:56 doy jnthn: haha, just noticed that you had just written that LHF.md document about an hour before i asked about it(:
19:56 benabik timotimo: QAST is a re-write of PAST.
19:56 moritz when we talk about past, we mostly mean qast
19:57 timotimo benabik: so when i tell rakudo to --target=past, what i get is actually a QAST?
19:57 timotimo OK
19:57 jnthn doy: Aye...timing win :)
19:57 jnthn timotimo: It's easy to remember: "PAST is the QAST of the past"
19:57 timotimo that's cute :)
19:57 timotimo so, since it seems like i can pir::regcomp__something('perl6') and do .eval on the object i get, can i tell that to eval something into a past and later give it a past to execute?
19:57 benabik When I talk about PAST, I mostly mean PAST.  But I often tinker around in pure parrot land.
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20:01 timotimo oh? the "edit summary" mode from the irclog has been made non-public?
20:02 timotimo ah, NoScript
20:02 timotimo need to get used to that some day
20:04 jnthn timotimo: hm, good question...
20:06 jnthn timotimo: You really need to write the transform in NQP
20:06 jnthn But that's not really a show-stopper...
20:06 jnthn Gimme a moment to try something.
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20:10 timotimo i tried my hand at summarizing today's happenings so far
20:11 jnthn ok, a few moments... :)
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20:34 jnthn timotimo: https://gist.github.com/4348324
20:35 jnthn This lets you basically get what Perl6::Optimizer gets and do something instead.
20:35 timotimo ooooh, that is *great*
20:35 timotimo jnthn++
20:35 jnthn You write the Perl 6 code to try compiling in the say 42, then you write your NQP code to do the transforming inside a sub
20:35 jnthn oh, and wait...
20:36 masak running spectests. getting big free()-related blowup on t/spec/S02-types/bool.t -- is this an oldie-but-goodie?
20:36 jnthn yeah
20:37 jnthn well, but not very good :P
20:37 dalek nqp: ba37573 | jnthn++ | src/NQP/Compiler.pm:
20:37 dalek nqp: Make NQP compreg when loaded as a module.
20:37 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ba3757329c
20:37 jnthn timotimo: You need ^ too :)
20:37 jnthn moritz: you may also find https://gist.github.com/4348324 of interest, or disgust :)
20:38 timotimo it amazes me how fast that was.
20:41 * jnthn returns to packing stuff for his UK trip tomorrow :)
20:42 timotimo jnthn: you should totally make that gist more public
20:42 masak summary of "I'm <mood> to present" phrases in Rakudo's release announcements: "pleased" for ages. changed to "happy" by [Coke] for 2010.07. changed to "glad" by tadzik for 2012.05. changed to "thrilled" by pmichaud for 2012.09. changed to "please" by masak for 2012.12.
20:43 masak pleased*
20:44 jnthn How...lagom.
20:44 colomon what's the name of the ?? !! operator?
20:45 * colomon is deep into tomorrow's Advent post now.
20:45 timotimo i know it as "the ternary operator"
20:45 flussence interrobang ternary? :)
20:45 colomon timotimo++ flussence++
20:46 tadzik :)
20:46 tadzik hello hello
20:47 colomon \o
20:48 masak tadziku! \o/
20:48 japhb_ Bah, I can't get "panda install after rakudo rebuild" to fail again.  I don't know whether to be happy or annoyed at that ....
20:48 masak tadzik: whenever you rez on the channel saying "hello hello", it's as if I can hear you saying it. makes me smile.
20:50 tadzik (:
20:51 kurahaupo joined #perl6
20:51 tadzik whoa: https://github.com/jnthn/nqp-jvm-prep
20:52 tadzik stuff's happening :)
20:53 tadzik just when we got threads on parrot ;P
20:53 colomon tadzik: the more the merrier!
20:54 tadzik :)
20:55 masak "Now you've got two VMs with threads."
20:55 tadzik :D
20:55 tadzik oN woy'uevg tot owV sMw ti hhterda.s
20:57 cotto joined #perl6
20:57 kurahaupo left #perl6
20:58 masak \/o
20:58 hoelzro jnthn++ # Perl 6 on the JVM
20:58 masak more like "NQP prep on the JVM" so far, but still :)
20:58 masak jnthn++
20:59 masak humans and gentlebots.
20:59 masak let's begin tonight's release engineering of Rakudo.
20:59 jnthn Yes, there's still a good bit of work before Rakudo runs there :)
20:59 * masak pushes the big "thumping party beat" button
21:00 doy does rakudo have any non-nqp dependencies?
21:00 tadzik ack pir:: rakudo
21:00 tadzik yep :)
21:00 hoelzro jnthn, masak: still, a start is great!
21:00 hoelzro tadzik++ # for using ack
21:00 tadzik ackwesome
21:00 jnthn yeah, those, and also some C code that does some bits with Parrot
21:00 jnthn But still, it's a small percentage.
21:01 tadzik we'll slowly build awesome and get there
21:01 jnthn The majority of Rakudo is in NQP and Perl 6 :)
21:01 jnthn Aye :)
21:01 dalek rakudo/nom: 4423b87 | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.12:
21:01 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.12] added
21:01 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4423b87684
21:02 masak all hands on deck, please to review, kthx.
21:02 * masak looks cute, in order to attract more attention for the announcement review :>
21:02 sjohnson joined #perl6
21:03 FROGGS hehe
21:03 tadzik oh, Warszawa
21:03 * jnthn reviews, but tbh has seen cuter :P
21:03 diakopter command after (tadzik)
21:03 diakopter er.
21:03 diakopter comma
21:03 tadzik and it mentions me. I'm flattered
21:04 masak will fix. thank you.
21:04 tadzik and 2012 wasn't very active on my side :(
21:04 jnthn .oO( la mafia comma after tadzik! )
21:04 timotimo i'd change "more accurate and more information given" to a full sentence: "they are more accurate and more information is given" if that isn't too long
21:04 dalek rakudo/nom: ab1ff9c | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.12:
21:04 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.12] comma fix
21:04 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:04 dalek rakudo/nom: diakopter++ noticed.
21:04 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ab1ff9c7d7
21:05 masak timotimo: oki.
21:05 jnthn masak: yeah, what timotimo++ said
21:05 jnthn Also may be worth mentioning the auto-threader speedup, since it was a common complaint.
21:06 masak jnthn: oh, good idea.
21:06 timotimo oh yes!
21:06 dalek rakudo/nom: f015670 | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.12:
21:06 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.12] wording fix
21:06 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:06 dalek rakudo/nom: timotimo++ suggested.
21:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f015670232
21:06 jnthn "assuming the world doesn't end today," :P
21:06 jnthn Whoever makes next month's relesae is gonna be in for a surprise if they copy-paste last month's announce without watching too closely :P
21:06 FROGGS masak: I can't complain about nothing...
21:07 jnthn FROGGS: So...what can you complain about? :P
21:07 masak jnthn: provided there is a next month... :P
21:07 FROGGS :P
21:08 dalek rakudo/nom: 2c7c338 | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.12:
21:08 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.12] autothreding improvement
21:08 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:08 dalek rakudo/nom: jnthn++ is right; an order-of-magnitude faster is massive
21:08 dalek rakudo/nom: and should have a mention.
21:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2c7c3385d3
21:09 timotimo jnthn: isn't there at least one world-ends-today theory for each day of each year?
21:09 tadzik but this one is The One
21:10 FROGGS ya, the one one
21:10 tadzik hide yo kids, hide yo wife
21:11 masak tools/update-tai-utc.pl is spewing infinitely many 'Use of uninitialized value $lines[0] in pattern match (m//)' warnings here.
21:11 masak can someone reproduce this?
21:12 masak perl tools/update-tai-utc.pl src/core/tai-utc.pm # in the rakudo directory
21:12 tadzik nope
21:12 jnthn Can't locate Time/y2038.pm in @INC
21:12 tadzik works for me
21:13 masak tadzik: does it update the leap seconds for you?
21:13 tadzik Updated.
21:13 tadzik This program should next be run in February.
21:13 tadzik git diff doesn't agree though :)
21:13 masak ok, it was a null update, then :)
21:13 masak proceeding.
21:13 tadzik :)
21:13 masak tadzik++
21:13 tadzik masak++
21:13 FROGGS masak: I thought it is like perl tools/update-tai-utc.pl > src/core/tai-utc.pm
21:13 tadzik . o O ( ping - pong )
21:13 tadzik Na
21:14 tadzik $ARGV[0] ||= 'src/core/tai-utc.pm';
21:16 dalek rakudo/nom: 927e71c | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:16 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/release_guide.pod] upcoming release ascends
21:16 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/927e71c95a
21:23 masak according to the NQP release guide, I should *not* bump NQP's Parrot release to 4.11.
21:26 tomgj Am I right in thinking that in signatures of routines you can only declare a single typed return value, and the situation is not nearly as generalised as whatever this doc was targeted at: http://www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/return.html
21:26 dalek nqp: 6d4973f | masak++ | VERSION:
21:26 dalek nqp: bump VERSION to 2012.12
21:26 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6d4973f669
21:27 timotimo tomgj: i think you can specify a junction as return value, like --> Bool|Int
21:27 tadzik masak: do so anyway
21:27 jnthn tomgj: I think several things in that article are a bit off.
21:27 tadzik then Threads.pm will be certified to work on 2012.12 :)
21:28 timotimo oh, you mean something different
21:28 tomgj timotimo: ah, thanks, that is certainly a good start
21:28 jnthn tomgj: You certainly can return multiple values.
21:28 masak tadzik: the NQP release process just came to a screeching halt. if I am to contravene the release guide, I want independent confirmation from a core Rakudo/nqp developer.
21:28 masak jnthn? :)
21:29 timotimo r: sub what_type($a --> Bool|Int) { given $a { when 1 { return True }; when "foo" { return 100 } } }; say what_type(1).perl; say what_type("foo").perl;
21:29 p6eval rakudo f01567: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/HGcz8qjWzl:1â�¤------> [32msub what_type($a --> Bool[33mâ��[31m|Int) { given $a { when 1 { return True [0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefix or meta-prefixâ�¤       …
21:29 tomgj jnthn: sure, but there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between what you can return, and what you can promise the return will be in the signature of a method / subroutine
21:29 timotimo std: sub what_type($a --> Bool|Int) { given $a { when 1 { return True }; when "foo" { return 100 } } }; say what_type(1).perl; say what_type("foo").perl;
21:29 p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 45m␤»
21:29 timotimo seems like rakudo doesn't parse that yet
21:29 jnthn tomgj: I think at the moment returns explicitly expects to parse a type name.
21:29 jnthn timotimo: Pass it to STD also
21:29 timotimo r: sub what_type($a) returns Bool|Int { given $a { when 1 { return True }; when "foo" { return 100 } } }; say what_type(1).perl; say what_type("foo").perl;
21:29 p6eval rakudo f01567: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/hf5QyOwamE:1â�¤------> [32msub what_type($a) returns Bool[33mâ��[31m|Int { given $a { when 1 { return True }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        statement listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefix or meta-prefixâ�¤  â€¦
21:29 jnthn timotimo: that was r again :P
21:30 timotimo i passed it to std, it said "ok"
21:30 jnthn timotimo: oh, I missed that
21:30 timotimo ;)
21:30 jnthn Hm
21:31 jnthn OK, my next question is what on earth does STD actually parse that as :)
21:31 masak jnthn: should I bump NQP to use Parrot 4.11? NQP release guide says no, tadzik says do it anyway.
21:31 jnthn masak: What's the issue?
21:31 masak see above :)
21:32 tadzik THREADS
21:32 tadzik erem
21:32 jnthn masak: But at the moment it's already 4_10_0
21:32 tadzik you need to build parrot --without-threads anyway
21:32 masak aye.
21:32 tadzik so, mebbe it doesn't really matter :)
21:32 jnthn masak: moment
21:32 tadzik let it stay underground, wooooo
21:32 masak ok, going ahead with doing nothing.
21:33 jnthn moritz++ bumped it to 4.10.0 to fix a sockets issue
21:33 masak I am doing all of this on a train, by the way.
21:33 jnthn That was since the last release.
21:33 masak will this be the first train-based Rakudo release? :D
21:33 timotimo rakudo on rails, i see.
21:33 tadzik :D
21:34 jnthn masak: yes, and that's gonna be a pain to one-up, but Norwegian do wi-fi on their planes, so... ;)
21:34 masak jnthn: CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
21:34 timotimo i'd like to see a rakudo release from a hot weather balloon or a blimp
21:34 jnthn OK, but it's my turn to have the window seat :P
21:34 timotimo maybe a zeppelin, or even a quadcopter
21:34 masak just need to book a Norwegian flight on a release day... :)
21:35 jnthn masak: On the bump...hmm
21:35 jnthn I think that advice dates back to when Parrot had broken readline.
21:35 jnthn That is now fixed.
21:35 masak let's put it this way.
21:36 masak is there any overwhelming reason to upgrade Parrot?
21:36 jnthn And I'm fairly comfortable it must be because everyone who's had HEAD since 29th Nov woulda seen the breakage if it was there...
21:36 masak can we look into changing our release guide at some other point of the month? :)
21:36 jnthn masak: Well, what will you relesae with it as?
21:36 masak jnthn: parse error on your question.
21:37 masak I will release according to the current release guide.
21:37 masak Parrot 4.10.
21:37 jnthn masak: OK, but that bump took place during this month. That's all I'm saying
21:37 jnthn But yes, that's fine.
21:37 jnthn We know it works sufficiently well...
21:37 masak ok, good.
21:37 benabik Readline has been fixed, as far as #parrot knows.  :-)
21:39 tomgj joined #perl6
21:40 benabik Or, at least, as far as I know from hanging around #parrot.
21:40 jnthn tomgj: I've checked, the returns trait expects to parse a typename, and a typename is more restrictive than specifying, say, a signature
21:40 jnthn tomgj: That doesn't mean you can't declare a subset type that checks the thing being returned against a signature, mind.
21:41 masak "Upload the release tarball to Github's download area at L<http://github.com/perl6/nqp/downloads>." -- "We've recently deprecated this downloads section (manually uploaded files). Please read the blog post for more information." https://github.com/perl6/nqp/downloads
21:41 masak :( :( :(
21:41 dalek ecosystem: b80c908 | (Timothy Totten)++ | META.list:
21:41 dalek ecosystem: Added Text::Table::List
21:41 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/e​cosystem/commit/b80c908458
21:41 masak this was what moritz tweeted about... :(
21:41 masak NQP release process aborted due to abruptly changing reality. masak close to tears.
21:42 masak *sniff*
21:42 masak also, this train is heavily delayed.
21:42 tomgj jnthn: ah, okay, thanks.  I may have been using the term "signature" wrongly.  Is it not correct to say that the returns part is part of the signature?
21:42 lichtkind cheers masak
21:42 masak lichtkind: ahoj!
21:42 tomgj the question may apply to traits in general if returns is a trait
21:43 * masak reads the bloody blog post in question
21:43 lichtkind masak: looked into my gist?
21:43 tomgj (this is a bit of a tangent - but thought I'd just check up on the vocab)
21:43 jnthn tomgj: Yes, it's a trait.
21:43 masak lichtkind: no...
21:43 jnthn You can write it within the signature also though
21:43 masak lichtkind: url?
21:43 jnthn And actually the information lives in the signature.
21:43 jnthn masak: For the Rakudo release, pmichaud++ set up rakudo.org to host them
21:44 jnthn masak: I sent him a public key yesterday, I guess you didn't see about that in the backlog...
21:44 lichtkind https://gist.github.com/4341223
21:45 masak jnthn: no, I missed that.
21:45 masak diakopter suggests perl6.org or perl6.com for the NQP release, on privmsg.
21:45 masak jnthn: any objections or alternative suggestions?
21:46 masak should we put the NQP release on rakudo.org too?
21:46 jnthn masak: We could...
21:46 jnthn pmichaud: ping?
21:46 masak lichtkind: aha, an advent post.
21:46 jnthn masak: Mostly we need it somewhere for the Star release
21:47 masak lichtkind: good job on writing one. a quick glance make it seem like it needs some editing.
21:47 lichtkind masak: your a genious
21:47 lichtkind feel free
21:47 masak lichtkind: but I'm kinda busy right now...
21:47 lichtkind but i ealready gone over it most  rough edges are already gone
21:47 masak o rly? ok, then.
21:47 jnthn masak: So we can always delay uploading the NQP tarball.
21:48 lichtkind masak: jeah pperljam helped
21:48 masak jnthn: ok. fine. as long as we don't forget it.
21:48 jnthn email it to myself and Pm perhaps; one of us will figure something out :)
21:48 masak lichtkind: something about it makes it not look ready for publishing. but I don't have time right now.
21:48 masak jnthn: doing that now.
21:48 masak lichtkind: thanks for thinking of me, though. I'm generally happy to look through people's articles. :)
21:49 * masak re-focuses on NQP and Rakudo
21:49 jnthn Pm set up the rakudo.org access with keys so I can't just give you the pssword... :/
21:49 masak nodnod
21:50 lichtkind masak: i also wanted to show you in case i am awy tomorrow the hole day you know where it is
21:50 icebattle joined #perl6
21:51 FROGGS we all will be away in some sense...
21:51 FROGGS ... gone I mean
21:51 masak :)
21:51 masak ...and today is "the hole day" :P
21:51 lichtkind FROGGS: common not even ufo magazins did panic in the last years
21:51 lichtkind and btw it was topic for the last 30 years
21:51 * masak .oO( and those guys are craaazy )
21:52 lichtkind its kinda burned hype
21:52 masak lichtkind: you're implying that the world won't actually end in the very near future?
21:52 lichtkind masak: especially the ones who deny the phenomena
21:53 masak "nqp-2012.12.tar.gz contains an executable file. For security reasons, Gmail does not allow you to send this type of file." -- oh ffs
21:53 lichtkind masak: i spoke with god and he didnt ordered any of that
21:53 * masak hosts the file on his server and sends a link
21:54 FROGGS masak: zip it with a passwd like 1234?
21:54 masak FROGGS: that's the combination to my luggage!
21:54 jnthn masak: Yes, I've hit that gmail restriction too. Bloody nuisance.
21:54 FROGGS ha! $FROGGS haz now access to masak's secret underpants!
21:55 jnthn ...er, what? :)
21:56 masak de gustibus non est disputandum.
21:56 jnthn gustibus...is that they the bus drives past and a gust sweeps you off your feet?
21:57 colomon Hey, all, I've got a complete first draft on tomorrow's Advent post, and would appreciate comments and (if anyone is so inclined) additional scripts.  http://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/?p=1790&amp;preview=true
21:57 dalek rakudo/nom: 1dd2a00 | masak++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
21:57 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump NQP revision
21:57 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1dd2a00dec
21:57 dalek rakudo/nom: 8a1836b | masak++ | VERSION:
21:57 dalek rakudo/nom: [release] bump VERSION
21:57 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8a1836b480
21:58 colomon (the link probably won't work unless you've permission to edit the Advent calendar posts, sorry.)
22:03 masak colomon: any particular reason you have the second (redundant) condition in { when * %% 2 { $_ / 2 }; when * !%% 2 { 3 * $_ + 1 }; } ?
22:04 colomon masak: that was literally my first thought implementing it.  it goes away later in the post.
22:04 masak ok :)
22:04 masak also, % is shorter than !%%
22:04 masak but I'll read the rest of the post.
22:04 colomon (And the timing difference between the second when and a simple default is addressed.)
22:05 masak nice.
22:05 masak colomon++ # good post
22:08 masak hm, I won't be able to run these stresstests before the train arrives.
22:08 colomon danke.
22:08 bot48 good blog colomon
22:08 masak will need to detrain and then finish the release process when I'm home.
22:09 bot48 sorry hi all o/
22:09 hoelzro do you guys and gals think that pygments should hilight MAIN like a keyword?
22:09 masak hi, bot48.
22:09 hoelzro or should I leave it as normal text?
22:10 jnthn hoelzro: It's just a sub name
22:10 hoelzro it's a slightly special one, though
22:10 masak not special enough.
22:10 hoelzro ok, cool
22:10 jnthn The uppercase already carries the specialness
22:10 masak thanks for checking :)
22:10 * hoelzro ticks one thing off his TODO list for this
22:11 masak &
22:16 hoelzro how can I get the length of a ResizableStringArray in NQP?
22:16 jnthn nqp::elems(...)
22:17 hoelzro ah ha
22:23 gdey joined #perl6
22:29 silug joined #perl6
22:32 * [Coke] yawns from a "wait-for-the-kid-to-finish-his-extracurricular" wifi spot.
22:35 pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6  (from 30,000 feet)
22:37 pmichaud arggg, looks like I just missed masak++
22:37 hoelzro ahoy pmichaud
22:38 hoelzro hey, there's that plane with wifi needed for the release =P
22:38 pmichaud I can't handle the tarball upload from here, but I can handle it from my hotel room when I get there and have some free time
22:39 pmichaud or if someone else wants to get to it, that works too.
22:39 jnthn pmichaud: masak will be back
22:39 sorear good * #perl6
22:39 phenny sorear: 14:00Z <colomon> tell sorear Big sale on dotTrace profiler today.  http://www.jetbrains.com/profiler/index.html Should I get it for Niecza development?  (Should I get one for you for Niecza development?)
22:40 jnthn o/ sorear
22:40 pmichaud I could use a publickey for masak++  :-)
22:40 * masak is back
22:40 jnthn right :)
22:40 masak \o/
22:40 jnthn masak: Quick! A key! A public key! :P
22:40 sorear so how are we doing tarball uploads now, and can I get in on it?
22:40 masak now, where was I?
22:40 colomon \o sorear
22:40 jnthn sorear: Hosting them at rakudo.org
22:40 masak ah yes, start the stresstests.
22:41 masak pmichaud: you require a public SSH key from me?
22:41 jnthn pmichaud: Will we put nqp there also?
22:41 pmichaud jnthn: yes, I think it makes sense to put nqp there also
22:41 jnthn wfm
22:41 pmichaud just create downloads/nqp, methinks
22:42 jnthn *nod*
22:42 pmichaud masak: with a publickey I can get you ssh/scp/sftp access to the rakudo.org server
22:42 pmichaud or any of the other ringleaders that have access could do the upload
22:42 pmichaud (yes, the fact that github is removing the downloads feature is a real pain)
22:43 pmichaud (I really liked github's downloads option.)
22:43 jnthn yeah, it's a pity
22:43 pmichaud connecting from airplane wifi feels like being on a 300 baud modem again :-)
22:44 sorear would it make any sense at all for niecza to use rakudo's download infrastructure?
22:44 pmichaud sorear: I don't have a problem with that
22:45 pmichaud if you'd like to use rakudo's infrastructure for that, I'll be glad to set it up.  We could even create a separate niecza domain/site if you want.
22:45 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, the latency is quite something...if it's anything like what we have on the flights here in Europe anyway :)
22:48 * jnthn guesses his flight tomorrow probably doesn't have wifi :(
22:48 jnthn Hm, probably worth a general note that I'm not gonna be about tomorrow probably at all, and not that much in the next several days.
22:57 pmichaud masak++   # nqp release now at http://rakudo.org/downloads/nqp
22:58 hoelzro masak: did you just remove all the extra options from src/NQP/Compiler.pm?
22:58 pmichaud ooooh, nice view of grand canyon outside plane's window :)
22:59 jnthn ooh, nice :)
22:59 pmichaud ...nqp tarball is 1.2MB?  that seems... largish
22:59 hoelzro oh, that was jnthn's fault.
22:59 dalek rakudo/nom: 55dbc07 | masak++ | docs/announce/2012.12:
22:59 dalek rakudo/nom: [docs/announce/2012.12] new download URLs
22:59 dalek rakudo/nom:
22:59 dalek rakudo/nom: Because GitHub has de-provided their upload function.
22:59 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/55dbc07f67
23:00 pmichaud I guess that's on the order of what it's been, but it still seems big.
23:00 jnthn hoelzro: I just moved some stuff from MAIN to the mainline
23:00 jnthn hoelzro: So taht if you load_language nqp, compreg happens.
23:00 hoelzro jnthn: I saw; no biggie, but I just had merge conflicts =(
23:00 masak pmichaud: I created the tarball according to the release guide ;)
23:00 hoelzro jnthn: I defer to your expertise =)
23:01 pmichaud masak: yeah, I'll look at it later and see if I can figure out why it's so big.
23:01 jnthn hoelzro: Well, I hope there was no functional changes from waht I did. But yeah, if you had changes in MAIN you'll get conflicts.
23:01 pmichaud okay, plane is starting to descend now
23:01 hoelzro jnthn: there shouldn't be; I'll try compiling
23:02 hoelzro just submitted my first pull request for NQP! \o/
23:02 pmichaud catch you all later -- perhaps several days later (depends on what else is happening during my trip)
23:02 pmichaud hoelzro++   # pull requests
23:02 jnthn pmichaud: have a nice trip!
23:02 hoelzro indeed! enjoy!
23:02 pmichaud jnthn: enjoy your vacations as well.  be back in a few days
23:03 jnthn pmichaud: thanks, will do :) o/
23:03 masak pmichaud: happy descent!
23:04 hoelzro huh, I just realized that I can push to nqp's repo directly.
23:04 hoelzro oh well, I think that the user review of my change would be good =)
23:05 colomon pmichaud: have a good trip!
23:06 hoelzro aaaand updated pull request for Rakudo *
23:06 hoelzro no symlinks required!
23:06 hoelzro \o\
23:06 hoelzro /o/
23:06 hoelzro \o/
23:10 [Coke] (github downloads) what if we pay, I wonder.
23:10 benabik [Coke]: github seems to suggest you pay Amazon for S3 instead.
23:11 masak Rakudo 2012.12 tagged and uploaded to http://rakudo.org/downloads/rakudo/
23:11 jnthn \o/
23:11 jnthn masak++
23:12 hoelzro \o/
23:12 jnthn The Rakudo release with the best parse errors ever :)
23:12 jnthn * Until next months... ;)
23:12 flussence "New feature: More errors!"
23:13 cognominal joined #perl6
23:13 masak p6c email sent.
23:13 [Coke] OH. Has anyone thought to ask TPF?
23:14 masak ask TPF what?
23:15 masak what release date do I put on the Wikipedia article? where I'm at, it's past midnight, so it's 2012-12-21.
23:15 masak OTOH, by UTC, it's still before midnight.
23:16 * masak is leaning towards 2012-12-20 because that's what the release guide says and he can rationalize it using UTC
23:16 hoelzro good night p6 folk
23:16 masak I convinced me. let's go with 2012-12-20.
23:17 [Coke] masak: if they have infrastructure we could use to replace github for downloads.
23:17 dalek perl6-bench: 1725416 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | components.json:
23:17 dalek perl6-bench: Add repo info for Perlito, NQP-JS, and perl5 components (can't build them yet, though)
23:17 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/172541628c
23:17 dalek perl6-bench: 5ce74ce | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | README:
23:17 dalek perl6-bench: Add section on NETWORK TRAFFIC to README; add a mini-TOC at the top so people know where to look for quick info
23:17 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/5ce74ce022
23:18 masak Wikipedia article updated. both places.
23:18 masak standing down release mode.
23:19 masak folks, the eagle has shipped.
23:19 jnthn masak++
23:19 jnthn Go have a beer!
23:19 PerlJam masak++
23:19 * masak celebrates with a really dark imperial stout
23:19 * [Coke] needs to find a wifi leech point with beer instead of big macs.
23:20 colomon masak++
23:21 jnthn Ok, I gotta get up in 5 hours or so to head to the airport so...guess I should sleep a little :)
23:21 jnthn Probably be back in a day or so...we'll see :)
23:21 jnthn 'night
23:22 dalek perl6-bench: 82f0eb4 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | README:
23:22 dalek perl6-bench: Update README to suggest benchmarking new 2012.12 releases of NQP and Rakudo, masak++
23:22 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/82f0eb4155
23:22 sorear pmichaud: well, I'm definitely interested.
23:22 sorear colomon: I do not have a pressing need for a new profiler
23:23 masak yum, this beer.
23:23 japhb_ Good night, jnthn
23:23 benabik :n
23:23 benabik ww
23:24 colomon sorear: okay.
23:25 masak what's the right window for ':n'? #vimonirc? :)
23:26 benabik The gVim window instead of my IRC client?  Although even there I would have gotten a "No write since last change"
23:29 masak ah, of course. that's what I should've answered.
23:29 cognominal joined #perl6
23:33 japhb_ sorear, when are you planning to release v25?
23:33 sorear japhb_: this month or never
23:34 japhb_ *snirk*
23:34 * [Coke] adds Perl 6 to his resume.
23:34 japhb_ Fair enough
23:34 benabik v26 Release Notes:  There was no v25.
23:35 sorear benabik: there was no v23
23:46 cognominal joined #perl6

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