Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-01-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 timotimo wondering if it's simple to create a mirroring service for the perl6 ecosystem
00:01 timotimo it would be easy to clone all the repos and make them available and make a new META.list that points to modified META.info files that point to the mirrored git repos
00:02 timotimo would the META.info files inside those git repos need to be updated, too?
00:04 timotimo i suppose i won't know unless i try
00:07 timotimo oh, i don't even need to touch the meta.list, i just need to get the projects.json and replace the urls
00:08 supernovus SCGI is working again, in its rather limited form. One day I'll get around to refactoring it to be far more feature complete, but at least it works again. HTTP::Easy up next.
00:10 timotimo why is the getfile method in Panda::Ecosystem written in PIR? :\
00:13 supernovus Hmm, HTTP::Easy depends on the get() method working properly. Oh, also, it seems if you do IO::Socket.read() and there's no more data to send, instead of returning nothing, it just hangs. This makes writing while my $data = $socket.read(256) { ... } not work at all...
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00:14 timotimo oh crud. would you need select instead? :|
00:20 timotimo so there's two different points at which panda could fail: feather could be down, thus projects.json could be unreachable. that could be easy to mirror.
00:20 timotimo but if github is down, how does one supply mirrors for git repositories?
00:21 timotimo i suppose a "mirrors" attribute for the META.info format could be devised and those mirrors could be tested if the main src-url doesn't work
00:22 timotimo but then having source-type for the mirrors could be super annoying to do :|
00:22 supernovus That's it for now. SCGI is back up and running, I've updated WWW::App::Ballet to use it for the example script. Hopefully some of the breakage in the Rakudo's IO stuff gets worked out soon so HTTP::Easy can get updated. Til then, good * #perl6
00:24 timotimo things are always less simple than one would hope, i find.
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01:03 colomon r: use Test::Util; throws_like 'my @a = 1..*; @a[Inf] = "dog"', X::Item, index => Inf, aggregate => 1..*;
01:03 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find Test::Util in any of: /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/vendor/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/site/lib, /h…
01:05 bbkr I wonder why such simple thing as throws_like is not built-in in Test.pm
01:06 colomon it's not actually simple?  I'm trying to figure out how many tests the above line represents... seems to be something between 2 and 4.
01:06 colomon inclusive, obviously.  :)
01:08 colomon looks like the answer in this case is 4.
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01:17 colomon n: say ([X~] [<a b>] xx 3)
01:17 p6eval niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to ANON, used 2 of 3 positionals␤  at /tmp/yg_XJ7C_66 line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2558 (reduceop @ 12) ␤  at /tmp/yg_XJ7C_66 line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/COR…
01:17 alec what's a good IDE for perl6?
01:17 colomon n: say ([X~] [<a b>] xx 2)
01:17 p6eval niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«a ba b␤»
01:18 colomon alec: emacs?  Personally I use TextMate and the command line, which is not really an IDE at all.
01:19 alec right
01:19 colomon n: say [X~] <a b>, <a b>, <a b>
01:19 p6eval niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to ANON, used 2 of 6 positionals␤  at /tmp/urSEizJqSk line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2558 (reduceop @ 12) ␤  at /tmp/urSEizJqSk line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/COR…
01:19 alec i just want to be able to write/run scripts from the same window
01:20 alec i could use emacs i guess... but i don't really want to...
01:20 alec i'm just playing around at the moment so i don't need anything serious or complicated
01:20 colomon I don't blame you for not wanting to use emacs.  :)
01:20 alec =)
01:20 alec colomon++
01:23 colomon I would guess pretty much any decent programmer's editor could do what you want with a bit of coaxing.  Maybe Padre does it automatically, I haven't tried it recently.  I think Padre and vim and emacs are probably the only ones that have p6 syntax coloring even as options.
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01:54 alec padre suits my purposes
01:55 alec what's the perl6 equivalent of python def function(boolval1, boolval2): return(not boolval1 or boolval2) ?
01:57 moritz r: sub f(Bool $a, Bool $b) { not $a or $b }; say f False, True
01:57 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«True␤»
01:58 moritz (though I don't know about python's relative precedence of "not" and "or"
02:04 alec ok
02:04 alec thanks
02:04 alec moritz++
02:09 alec i can't get say f False, True to run in padre/rakudo, moritz
02:09 alec any idea what i'm doing wrong?
02:10 alec i wrote out the function as you wrote it here... maybe i need semicolons in different places?
02:10 moritz alec: do you get an error message?
02:10 alec bareword found where operator expected
02:10 alec 'did you forget to declare say?'
02:11 alec *predeclare
02:11 moritz alec: sounds like you're running it with perl 5, not rakudo
02:11 alec ah
02:11 alec good point
02:11 alec let's see
02:11 moritz (that's why I start my scripts with 'use v6;', but I don't do that on IRC)
02:13 alec ah
02:13 alec yes
02:13 alec i remember seeing that in the perl6 ebook
02:14 alec arghh... padre doesn't automatically notice perl6
02:14 alec when i apt-get it
02:14 alec ok, i still get an error when i run it with perl6
02:14 moritz what error?
02:15 alec 'invalid typename in parameter declaration at line 4 near " $a, bool "
02:16 moritz did you write Bool or bool ?
02:18 alec ahh
02:18 alec must have written Bool
02:18 alec er bool
02:18 alec thank you
02:18 alec moritz++
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02:47 dalek roast: ecd7e35 | (Solomon Foster)++ | / (14 files):
02:47 dalek roast: (Re)Fudge for Niecza.
02:47 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ecd7e35c33
02:48 diakopter rn: eval(('do 'x 2000)~'say 44')
02:48 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90, niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
02:50 dalek niecza: 95f809a | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/ (2 files):
02:50 dalek niecza: Support infix:<->(Instant, Instant).
02:50 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/95f809a215
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07:33 Woodi hallo :)
07:37 Woodi forget .vi. for a while... who is using emacs and why it is good editor ? :) I gues it have big startup time so not quite good for quick fixes...
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08:01 genehack Woodi: the startup time thing is handled by simply never restarting it 8^)
08:04 Woodi heh, nice trick :)
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08:11 Woodi but what realy is good in emacs ? buffers - even notepad have one buffer (copy and paste via OS :) and how often you need 2 or more ? screen splitting ? thats common now. scripting ?
08:18 Woodi "What you learn first you advocate later" - languages, oses, editors... it's too common. persons who change habits aren't so common...
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08:23 * Woodi advocating progress in humanity :) We need to take next step ! Look what aliens done so far!
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09:13 tadzik good morning #perl6
09:13 tadzik timotimo: where do you see the Pls reference?
09:14 dalek panda: 097fa4a | timo++ | README.md:
09:14 dalek panda: mention local file installation in the README.
09:14 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/097fa4a235
09:14 dalek panda: 430863f | tadzik++ | README.md:
09:14 dalek panda: Merge pull request #29 from timo/patch-1
09:14 dalek panda:
09:14 dalek panda: mention local file installation in the README.
09:14 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/430863f816
09:15 FROGGS morning
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10:26 FROGGS does anybody know what this :dba(STRING) does in the rakudo grammars?
10:41 sorear "doing business as".  sets a human-readable name for the rule to use in error messages.
10:48 Woodi thanx sorear++ for some time I wanted to know it :) seriously.
10:50 Woodi but Perl6 use ':' in some places - it is kind of attribute or property of things ?
11:06 sorear It's introducing a colonpair.
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11:31 not_gerd hello, #perl6
11:32 not_gerd Rakudo seems to be broken on latest Parrot on Cygwin
11:32 not_gerd see https://gist.github.com/4461110 and #parrot
11:43 masak g'day, #perl6
11:43 moritz \o masak
11:45 not_gerd o/
11:46 felher o/
11:46 tadzik seen timotimo
11:46 aloha timotimo was last seen in #perl6 11 hours 22 mins ago saying "things are always less simple than one would hope, i find.".
11:50 moritz http://www.infoq.com/interviews/conway-perl
11:50 moritz TheDamian++
11:50 moritz I like the C/C++ analogy
11:50 moritz Perl 6 is Perl 5's successor in the same sense that C++ is the successor to C
11:51 moritz that is, it was intended to be one, but turned out to evolve separately
11:56 felher moritz++ # for that link
11:58 Woodi watched this today too and like it :) one thing what caught my eye is that Perl6 still is considered to become BORG :) eg. "this block use grammar 'Ruby'". it realy can be good thing - inter-language cooperation becouse libraries need to be implemented in every language separately...
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11:59 Woodi s/eye/ear/ ? :)
12:00 Woodi could someone draw niecza internals maybe ? it have representations, grammars, etc. subsystems ?
12:01 Woodi comparing interpreters would be nice for mere mortals...
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12:10 Woodi so in the future you distibute grammars with your programs probably :)
12:13 not_gerd bye, #perl6
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12:45 timotimo tadzik: i'm here now :)
12:46 timotimo tadzik: the Pls reference is in the readme: "Pies itself is a specification (like masak's Pls),"
12:50 tadzik timotimo: my panda doesn't rebootstrap on the local-info branch, can you double-check that?
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12:52 dalek panda: 698d0cd | tadzik++ | README.md:
12:52 dalek panda: Fix the link to Pls in the readme, timotimo++
12:52 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/698d0cdc86
12:56 timotimo yes, sure can
12:56 timotimo but the last time i tried, rebootstrap didn't work at all for a clean checkout, too. but that was a month ago or so.
12:57 timotimo you're right. i seem to have made some mistake. i'll start fixing.
13:00 timotimo ah, a silly and simple mistake. i'll amend the commit and force-push it to my github again in a minute
13:01 timotimo huh!
13:01 timotimo upon reinstall i get SORRY: "No object at index 164"
13:02 timotimo that is, i run rebootstrap and after "==> Reinstalling" it says that
13:04 timotimo can't get rakudo-debugger up and running any more
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13:16 timotimo tadzik: can you try the commit i just pushed to the branch? (i amend-committed, so there's still only one commit)
13:37 tadzik I suspect git may get angry at me
13:39 tadzik it did :)
13:39 tadzik did you have to push --force?
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13:58 moritz http://norvig.com/mayzner.html
14:02 timotimo yes, i had to. just git reset --hard timo/local-info on your local local-info branch
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14:03 timotimo also, if you think git got angry at you, you haven't tried hg yet >_>
14:16 tadzik :D
14:17 tadzik yay, your branch seems to work fine
14:18 tadzik and my car is moving its wheels \o/
14:19 dalek panda: c65536e | (Timo Paulssen)++ | / (2 files):
14:19 dalek panda: panda info works for local projects, too.
14:19 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/c65536ed21
14:19 dalek panda: 21ed651 | tadzik++ | / (2 files):
14:19 dalek panda: Merge branch 'timo/local-info'
14:19 dalek panda: review: https://github.com/tadzik/panda/commit/21ed6510a4
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14:30 moritz r: say NaN === NaN
14:30 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«False␤»
14:33 FROGGS tadzik: what car?
14:33 tadzik FROGGS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMhcwCjpAOE :)
14:35 tadzik a university project
14:36 FROGGS tadzik: do I see an arduino board on top there?
14:36 tadzik that's right
14:36 FROGGS cool
14:36 tadzik it seems to be crashing every few loop iterations, it's not really supposed to stop every few wheel turns
14:37 FROGGS my arduino board should control my gearbox some time (have a project car too, but mine is a bit bigger :o)
14:37 FROGGS s/time/day/
14:46 masak "Error messages seem like an unimportant and incredibly boring part of crafting a user experience. But the tonality of error messages can swing the experience around from an almost certain abandonment to a conversion." -- http://uxmag.com/articles/are-you-saying-no-when-you-could-be-saying-yes-in-your-web-forms
14:46 masak wise words.
14:46 masak in fact, the more I design programs and applications, the more I realize that error messages are really central to the design, too.
14:46 masak or rather, the exceptions and the exception types.
14:49 masak and (taking a leaf from REST), both responses reporting success and responses reporting error conditions should provide "what to do next" verbs as part of their cargo.
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15:01 FROGGS masak: thats what I do too, I try to guide the user in the right direction, not just printing "thats wrong, do something else"
15:04 FROGGS because if you have to support the software, you actually save time later this way
15:04 FROGGS (and it is better in every way)
15:12 masak the developer saves time, the user is happier.
15:20 FROGGS one thing I hate about php, if you have a syntax error, you get no error messages and no output at all
15:21 FROGGS .u 离开
15:21 FROGGS I thought that would work
15:21 FROGGS .u 离开?
15:21 FROGGS hmmm
15:22 FROGGS seen phenny
15:22 aloha phenny was last seen in #perl6 1 days 17 hours ago saying "masak: I'll pass that on when grondilu is around.".
15:22 FROGGS ohh
15:22 FROGGS what happened to her? is she ill?
15:24 masak FROGGS: "离开" is pronounced Líkāi (in Mandarin) and means "Leave".
15:25 FROGGS thanks mhasaky ;o)
15:25 masak the two characters mean "away" and "open", respectively.
15:25 FROGGS "open" like a door or "open" like that you dont know when to come back?
15:25 masak the former.
15:26 masak it's actually a pictogram, depicting two hands opening a door.
15:26 FROGGS if you say so
15:26 FROGGS I dont see that there ;o)
15:27 masak takes practice :)
15:28 masak in fact, "depart" seems to be a better translation of 离. it's a simplified version of 離.
15:28 FROGGS I definitely dont have time for things like this
15:28 masak (which, as you see, contains the simplified character as a radical)
15:28 FROGGS simplified to a thing that looks like black-gray mashed something?
15:29 masak that suggests to me you need a better font.
15:29 FROGGS ya, might be true
15:30 FROGGS ahh, the font used on the irclog page is better, I see what you mean
15:30 masak 離 is a pictogram too, meant to illustrate birds flying away.
15:30 masak so there you go. birds departing, hands opening a door. :)
15:31 * FROGGS .oO( darmok and jalad at tanagra )
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15:32 gfldex rn: print ^10; say ^10;
15:32 * FROGGS .oO( darmok, his hands open )
15:32 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90, niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«01234567890..^10␤»
15:32 FROGGS masak: I think I prefer klingon ;o)
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15:32 FROGGS it is way easier
15:33 gfldex r: print ^10; say '---'; say ^10;
15:33 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«0123456789---␤0..^10␤»
15:33 gfldex why does print and say disagree on printing ranges?
15:33 FROGGS say is used for humans, print for "machines"
15:34 FROGGS so say will print it nice for you to recognize
15:35 FROGGS r: say 'abc' ~~ /$<text>=[\w+]/
15:35 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«「abc」␤ text => 「abc」␤␤»
15:35 FROGGS r: print 'abc' ~~ /$<text>=[\w+]/
15:35 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«abc»
15:35 FROGGS see?
15:35 masak conceptually 'say x' is 'print x.gist, "\n"'
15:35 FROGGS btw, I vote for colored output of Match.say
15:36 masak FROGGS: show us how you envision that. write a module!
15:36 FROGGS k, will do (after the versioning thing)
15:37 FROGGS still fiddling with the grammar
15:49 FROGGS moritz: are you interested in writing something for $foo?
15:49 FROGGS would be pretty cool
15:49 FROGGS and I'd read it ;o)
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16:05 moritz FROGGS: if there's a good topic to write about, yes
16:05 moritz though generally I reach a wider audience when I write in English
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16:08 FROGGS moritz: sure, but $foo is the only german mag, and it would be sad if it vanishes because there are not enough writers
16:09 FROGGS they sell 500 copies IIRC
16:09 moritz FROGGS: is there a lack of writers?
16:09 FROGGS I think so, yes
16:10 FROGGS thats why renee is searching himself for writers, contacting module authors for example
16:11 moritz so far he hasn't contacted me, even though I've written articles for $foo previously
16:11 moritz maybe he's looking for new authors specifically
16:11 FROGGS maybe, can't read his mind from this distance ;o)
16:12 moritz try rebooting your crystal ball :-)
16:13 FROGGS I do it like the centaurs, but mostly it is like: "mars is bright tonight"
16:19 hoelzro what exactly does the '::' prefix on type names do?
16:19 hoelzro ex. What's the difference between Foo and ::Foo?
16:20 moritz in a signature, ::Foo makes it a type capture
16:20 moritz r: sub f(::Foo $x) { say $x }; f 42
16:20 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«42␤»
16:20 moritz r: sub f(::Foo $x) { say Foo }; f 42
16:20 masak outside of it, ::Foo allows us to talk about Foo before it's declared.
16:20 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
16:20 masak std: say ::Foo; class Foo {}
16:20 p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
16:20 moritz masak: does it really?
16:20 masak r: say ::Foo; class Foo {}
16:20 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not locate compile-time value for symbol Foo␤»
16:20 moritz masak: I kinda recall it msotly doesn't work
16:21 hoelzro oooh, interesting...
16:21 masak hm.
16:21 masak I may be misremembering.
16:21 hoelzro I'm reading S10-packages, and the bit about predeclaring things is a bit murky to me
16:24 moritz nr: say 42.rand
16:24 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«4.45350720949697␤»
16:24 p6eval ..niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«1.5007969883739936␤»
16:25 FROGGS nr: say 42.rand
16:25 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«7.1425184547633487␤»
16:25 p6eval ..rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«29.0559677149378␤»
16:27 moritz nr: @a = 0 xx 5; @a.pick[0] = 42; say @a
16:27 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Variable @a is not declaredâ�¤at /tmp/1J_VT6GjH7:1â�¤------> [32m@a[33mâ��[31m = 0 xx 5; @a.pick[0] = 42; say @a[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
16:27 p6eval ..niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Variable @a is not predeclared at /tmp/6Gcibq6cmN line 1:�------> [32m<BOL>[33m�[31m@a = 0 xx 5; @a.pick[0] = 42; say @a[0m��Variable @a is not predeclared at /tmp/6Gcibq6cmN line 1:�------> [32m@a = 0 xx 5; [33m�[31m…
16:27 moritz nr: my @a = 0 xx 5; @a.pick[0] = 42; say @a
16:27 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤  at /tmp/F7xQFx_ypA line 1 (mainline @ 5) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4218 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4219 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
16:27 p6eval ..rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤  in block  at /tmp/_5KbizARdO:1␤␤»
16:27 moritz nr: my @a = 0 xx 5; @a.pick(2)[0] = 42; say @a
16:27 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0␤»
16:27 p6eval ..rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«0 42 0 0 0␤»
16:28 masak hmm.
16:28 masak I've never thought of .pick as returning lvalues.
16:29 moritz it seems to be intentional in the implementation
16:29 moritz .pick uses take-rw instead of take
16:29 moritz it kinda makes sense; array elements are always containers
16:29 moritz why should @a[0] keep the containery nature, but .pick not?
16:38 TimToady one wonders about relative efficiency/optimizability, of course...
16:39 TimToady it's harder to feed a list of lvalues through a GPU, but then sorear++ will claim I'm neglecting single-core machines :)
16:40 TimToady it should be possible to infer non-lvalue-context most of the time in such cases, though, so it's not clear how much it'd be worth for the user to specify it one way or the other
16:40 TimToady but then the same argument could be made for substr-rw, I suppose
16:42 TimToady the FP folks'll say "why the heck do you want lvalues in the first place?"  :)
16:42 masak I'd like to add the psychological argument: I've never, until now, expected an lvalue out of .pick
16:43 TimToady Principle of Most Non-Surprise, or some such
16:44 masak it would seem to me that if there's any reason to expect a slowdown from returning lvalues from .pick, even if it only happens in very few cases, it's not worth it.
16:44 masak because most people would only use the rvalue anyway, but their performance would be punished.
16:45 TimToady well, naïvely, I'd expect lvalues to be faster from pick's point of view, since it has to do less dereferencing; that gets amortized elsewhere, of course
16:45 TimToady and vice versa; you have to deref it somewhere
16:46 TimToady so the main difference would be in how much difference in effort there is to return a possibly different composite structure; but I don't think we distinguish much right now in that regard
16:47 TimToady a list of values could come back as a compact value, though
16:47 TimToady whereas a list of lvalues can only compact the native pointers
16:47 TimToady (sorry, my diction seems a little off yet this morning, but I hope you understand the blather)
16:48 * TimToady is still in mid-reboot, and expects the full reboot to take several weeks, given it's partially seasonal
16:49 masak I understand the blather :)
16:49 masak errand, bbl &
16:53 colomon TimToady!  \o/
16:53 TimToady orz
16:54 moritz TimToady: who or what are your rebooting?
16:55 * TimToady is rebooting himself; had many hung threads the last several weeks, plus infestations of relatives and other diseases
16:56 moritz good reboot then :-)
16:57 * colomon has lost the niecza object file cache again.  :(
16:58 colomon ah, .local/share/NieczaModuleCache
17:21 genehack Woodi: sorry, went to bed. the best thing about emacs is customizability. but maybe this is a conversation for freenode/#emacs ... 8^)
17:22 cognominal joined #perl6
17:23 moritz somehow the last ~5 rakudo patches that I tried all went wrong :(
17:24 TimToady maybe rakudo is somehow turning into a Haskell compiler?
17:25 masak o, cruel fate!
17:25 moritz I hope not :-)
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17:36 moritz nr: use Test; nok ([==] (^2**64).roll(10).map(* +& 15)), 'Range.pick has enough entropy'; # what a lovely test case for [perl #104514]
17:36 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - Range.pick has enough entropy␤# /tmp/PFi9IlDssg line 1␤»
17:36 p6eval ..rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - Range.pick has enough entropy␤»
17:36 fgomez joined #perl6
17:37 tadzik uh-oh :)
17:37 moritz I'm working on a fix for that in rakudo, but it's not quite good enough yet
17:38 moritz but I don't understand why niecza fails the test
17:39 moritz $ niecza -e 'say .fmt("%b").substr(*-4) for (^2**64).roll(10)'
17:39 moritz those not all the same
17:40 moritz n: say [==] 0b110, 0b1100, 0b1000
17:40 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«False␤»
17:40 moritz n: use Test; plan 1; nok 0, 'foo'
17:40 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«1..1␤ok 1 - foo␤»
17:41 moritz n: say .fmt("%b") for (^2**64).roll(10).map(* +& 15)
17:41 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤»
17:42 [particle]1 joined #perl6
17:42 moritz n: say .fmt("%b") for (^2**64).roll(10).map({ $_ +& 15 })
17:42 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤0␤»
17:42 moritz n: say 14 +& 15
17:42 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«14␤»
17:42 moritz n: say .fmt("%b") for (^2**64).roll(10)
17:42 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«1010100100001000010110111001110100101011100101110001000000110101␤1010110010110000010001111110000110101001001101110001110101100011␤101011101101111111110001110110001010110101000100011001001011001␤11101010011000010001010000110111011001100010111100100010100010…
17:42 * colomon 's interest has been attracted by this one...
17:43 moritz colomon: any idea while the +& 15 always returns 0?
17:43 moritz n: say (2**64 + 1) +& 15
17:43 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:43 moritz ah, there you go
17:43 moritz seems that +& only works with machine-size ints?
17:43 moritz rn: say (2**64 + 1) +& 15
17:43 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:43 p6eval ..niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:43 moritz rn: say (2**64 + 15) +& 15
17:43 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«15␤»
17:43 p6eval ..niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:44 colomon whoops.
17:45 colomon +& is not set up to handle bigints at all
17:45 fgomez joined #perl6
17:46 * colomon is looking at what is needed to fix.
17:46 colomon are there more normal spectests for binary ops on bigints?
17:54 dalek rakudo-js: 5f72e41 | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (4 files):
17:54 dalek rakudo-js: very basic deserialisation, start passing test 9 again
17:54 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/5f72e410ab
17:56 colomon niecza> (^2**64).roll(10).map(* +& 15).map(*.fmt("%04b "))
17:56 colomon 0001  1000  1010  0100  0100  0010  0000  1100  0011  0010
17:57 Ayiko r: (^2**64).roll(5).fmt('%x')
17:57 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90:  ( no output )
17:57 Ayiko r: say (^2**64).roll(5).fmt('%x')
17:57 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«51010000 63780000 2a230000 62f20000 8d150000␤»
18:01 * colomon is spectesting his fix, but so far it only works (?) for +&.
18:02 * colomon worries there are not enough tests for this in roast and/or he doesn't know where the tests are.
18:11 masak n: say :16( 2**64 + 15 )
18:11 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Numbers may not be passed :base(); if you wanted to render the number in the given base, use $number.base($radix); if you want to treat the number as a string, explicitly coerce it first␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1…
18:11 masak oh, right. :)
18:11 masak n: say (2 ** 64 + 15).base(16)
18:11 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«1000000000000000F␤»
18:11 masak n: say (2 ** 64 + 15).base(16).substr(*-1)
18:11 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«F␤»
18:12 masak n: say :16( (2 ** 64 + 15).base(16).substr(*-1) )
18:12 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«15␤»
18:12 masak there you go. voila! :P
18:23 moritz ok, I have a fix for the entropy thing
18:23 moritz but
18:23 colomon so, I have niecza working +& on bigints (I think).  Full spectest didn't have any failures.  But it didn't have any TODO passes, either.
18:23 moritz it always comes with a "but", right?
18:23 colomon but is constant, yes.
18:23 moritz it uses the random number generator from libtommath
18:23 moritz which in turn uses the one from libc
18:23 moritz which we don't ever seed in parrot or rakudo
18:24 moritz so, we always get the same .pick/.roll results, for each invocation of the program
18:24 moritz that sucks
18:24 moritz I could do it in nqp_dynop_setup, but IMHO that sucks too, because then all of NQP does that
18:25 moritz ooh, we have a nqp_bigitn_setup op
18:29 awwaiid joined #perl6
18:33 * masak .oO( you can't every "fix entropy" without something else coming un-fixed ) :P
18:33 masak ever*
18:35 TimToady .oO(Fly softly and carry a big radiating surface.)
18:38 dalek nqp: b2e3f27 | moritz++ | src/ops/nqp_bigint.ops:
18:38 dalek nqp: call srand in nqp_bigint_setup
18:38 dalek nqp:
18:38 dalek nqp: nqp::rand_I uses mp_rand, which in turn uses the system rand() call
18:38 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b2e3f277a4
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19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: a930588 | moritz++ | / (3 files):
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: RT #109586: .pick on a large range has too little entropy
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom:
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: fixed by using nqp::rand_I instead of Num.rand
19:08 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a93058810b
19:09 colomon r: use Test;    is 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead +& 0xbeef0000beef0000beef0000beef, 0x9ead0000000000009ead00009ead,     'numeric bitwise +& of bigint';
19:09 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«ok 1 - numeric bitwise +& of bigint␤»
19:09 colomon n: use Test;    is 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead +& 0xbeef0000beef0000beef0000beef, 0x9ead0000000000009ead00009ead,     'numeric bitwise +& of bigint';
19:09 p6eval niecza v24-13-g95f809a: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - numeric bitwise +& of bigint␤# /tmp/udDmisyJLT line 1␤#    Failed test␤#           got: -2147483648␤#      expected: 3218327189491931657561814673170093␤»
19:11 masak p: use Test; is 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead +& 0xbeef0000beef0000beef0000beef, 0x9ead0000000000009ead00009ead, 'numeric bitwise +& of bigint'
19:11 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«pugs: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/qrKUDUpe90 line 1, column 1␤»
19:11 masak p: say 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead +& 0xbeef0000beef0000beef0000beef
19:11 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«3218327189491931657561814673170093␤»
19:11 masak p: say 256.base(16)
19:11 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&base"␤    at /tmp/_2PML_OYYz line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
19:11 masak aww :)
19:12 moritz you can still use .fmt or sprintf
19:12 TimToady at least for hex output
19:13 moritz aye
19:13 masak p: say sprintf '%x', 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead +& 0xbeef0000beef0000beef0000beef
19:13 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:13 dalek roast: c384d77 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/bit.t:
19:13 dalek roast: A few simple tests for bitops with bigints.
19:13 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c384d77e46
19:14 TimToady p: say sprintf '%x', 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead
19:14 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:14 TimToady p: say sprintf '%x', 0xdead
19:14 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:15 dalek niecza: aea5a41 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/Builtins.cs:
19:15 dalek niecza: Rewrite numor, numand, and numxor to handle BigIntegers.
19:15 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/aea5a414d6
19:15 TimToady p: printf "%x\n", 0xdead
19:15 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:15 TimToady p: printf "%d\n", 0xdead
19:15 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
19:15 TimToady consistency--
19:17 moritz brokenness--
19:18 Targen joined #perl6
19:18 cognominal joined #perl6
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: 70262f8 | moritz++ | src/utils/perl6doc (3 files):
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: delete old perl6doc files
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/70262f899c
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: 6d4b902 | moritz++ | src/core/Temporal.pm:
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: fix DateTime.Date (RT #114758)'
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6d4b9021f8
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: 1685f09 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/ (4 files):
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into froggs_mergemulti
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1685f0986d
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: a930588 | moritz++ | / (3 files):
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: RT #109586: .pick on a large range has too little entropy
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti:
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: fixed by using nqp::rand_I instead of Num.rand
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a93058810b
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: ad93780 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into froggs_mergemulti
19:20 dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ad9378092c
19:23 colomon froggs_mergemulti?
19:24 moritz colomon: a branch where you can import the same multi from different modules
19:25 FROGGS right, like trait_mod:<is> from NativeCall and another module like Inline::C
19:25 FROGGS (and the core ones of course)
19:26 FROGGS btw, is there a reason for not moving &throws_like to Test.pm ?
19:26 moritz yes, it runs more than one test per call
19:27 FROGGS a fixed number of tests?
19:27 moritz no, depends on the arguments
19:28 FROGGS oaky, thanks
19:28 colomon took me a while to figure that one out yesterday.
19:30 FROGGS would it be possible to run these tests as subtests? so it is still one big test for the main plan?
19:30 FROGGS because throws_like is really handy
19:31 moritz subtests?
19:32 moritz does TAP have that facility?
19:32 sivoais joined #perl6
19:33 FROGGS moritz: http://search.cpan.org/~mschwern/Test-Simple-0.98/lib/Test/More.pm#subtest
19:33 FROGGS don't know if prove can handle it
19:34 timotimo run-time module importing with require doesn't work yet?
19:34 timotimo r: my $modname = "Test; require ::($modname) <is>;
19:34 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Unable to parse expression in double quotes; couldn't find final '"'â�¤at /tmp/3T7IlvZcjd:1â�¤------> [32mname = "Test; require ::($modname) <is>;[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤Â»
19:35 timotimo r: my $modname = "Test"; require ::($modname) <is>;
19:35 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«Could not find ::($modname) in any of: /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/vendor/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/site/lib, /home/p6eval/…
19:35 moritz r: my $modname = 'Test'; require $modname <&is>;
19:35 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/DnsBHBzNkx:1â�¤------> [32mmodname = 'Test'; require $modname <&is>[33mâ��[31m;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix or meta-infixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefi…
19:35 moritz hm
19:36 moritz r: my $modname = 'Test'; require $modname, <&is>;
19:36 p6eval rakudo 6d4b90: OUTPUT«Could not find Test &is in any of: /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/vendor/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/4.10.0-devel/languages/perl6/site/lib, /home/p6eval/.per…
19:36 FROGGS I love it, TimToady made the TAP protocol ;o)
19:37 moritz seems that only require <modul_name> allows an import list in Rakudo
19:37 * TimToady didn't really make the protocol, just kinda prototyped it for Perl 1
19:38 timotimo wow, it's that old? impressive.
19:38 FROGGS TimToady: are there code snippets on the web of Perl 1 to 4 ?
19:38 * FROGGS googles
19:40 sorear FROGGS: if you check out the perl5 git repository, the history contains the source for every version of perl that was released and some that weren't back to perl 1
19:40 sorear including a full import of the perforce history from early perl5
19:40 FROGGS sorear: cool
19:41 timotimo how much space does the repo itself take? must be quite big
19:41 sorear I don't know who to thank for this heroic research work, but that's the only thing to call it
19:42 colomon anonymous hero++
19:42 FROGGS timotimo: a few hundred megabytes IIRC
19:42 sorear timotimo: after "git pull; git gc; du -sh .git" I have 112M
19:42 sorear but I think that perl 1 is an infinitesimal fraction of that :p
19:43 timotimo wow, i suppose git compresses pretty nicely.
19:44 sorear this repository contains source for 49,639 revisions (counting blead only)
19:45 timotimo i wonder how old the oldest line of code in the perl repo may be :)
19:45 timotimo not very important to know, though
19:45 sorear there are three versions of perl: 1-4, 5, and 6
19:46 timotimo perl5 was a rewrite?
19:46 sorear yes
19:46 FROGGS at some point you have to start from scratch
19:46 nwc10 however, it was a rewrite from the perl 4 code
19:46 nwc10 not from scratch
19:46 timotimo mhm
19:46 sorear oh hai nwc10
19:46 nwc10 as at least one bit of perl 4 code survived, dead, for IIRC 10 years until it was purged
19:47 TimToady probably the regex engine out of Perl 1, which was stolen^Wborrowed from somewhere I don't even remember, Goslings emacs maybe
19:47 nwc10 I'm not the best person to ask. TimToady is :-)
19:47 TimToady doesn't matter if there was a complete rewrite; question was oldest code in the repo
19:47 timotimo who is this timtoady guy that everyone thinks he knows so much about perl! oh, wait ...
19:48 * TimToady <-- reflexively
19:48 FROGGS but 49,639 doesnt sound right, I made over 10,000 commits to my work repo since 2009
19:48 nwc10 aha. oldest code is this: http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/commit/perl-1.0
19:48 nwc10 135M  .git/
19:48 TimToady but the oldest line of code is obviously going to be older than that
19:48 nwc10 that's a fairly clean current perl 5 checkout
19:48 sorear I think nwc10 may have been present when I pried the history out of TimToady.  also, he's a little tiny bit more knowledgable on p5guts than I am :D
19:49 sorear (ok maybe more than that)
19:49 timotimo oh, i totally misspoke. i was wondering about the oldest bit/line of code that's still being compiled into a modern perl5 binary
19:49 TimToady I'll bet there's a curly or two that were in Perl 1 that are still in Perl 5 :)
19:50 timotimo moritz: can you estimate how hard it would be for a nqp/rakudo-guts beginner to improve rakudos support for run-time importation?
19:50 sorear timotimo: until you said "compiled" I would have guessed the oldest line was a copyright declaration :D
19:50 timotimo sorear: that was an attempt at making a sensible metric, but it's still flawed, as TimToady just ponited/curlied out ;)
19:51 timotimo TimToady: at what point is a curly still the same curly it was before? ;)
19:51 nwc10 there was an entire regression test that was line-for-line from perl 1 in perl 5 until 2 years ago
19:51 moritz timotimo: making   require ::($name) <importlist>; work shouldn't be too hard
19:52 timotimo moritz: cool, can you point me at a particular file, function or class?
19:52 diakopter "Here is some breathtakingly efficient cheating"
19:52 masak timotimo: there's really only one curly, duplicating itself all over the universe, instantiating itself everywhere.
19:53 diakopter "this" "really" "screams"  "eat" "dust" "sed"
19:53 moritz timotimo: in src/Perl6/Actions.pm method mumble:sym<require>
19:53 moritz dunno what value 'mumble' takes here
19:54 FROGGS timotimo: maybe compare this method <require> with the <use> one
19:54 moritz timotimo: there's some logic that evaluates the module name; that needs to be fixed
19:54 timotimo thank you, i'll have a look and see if i can make sense of it :)
19:55 FROGGS timotimo: and maybe have a look at require and use in src/Perl6/Grammar.pm, if your require statements arn't recognized
19:56 moritz there should already be a method in Perl6::World that generates code for the module name
19:56 timotimo moritz: that "mumble:" was figurative and you were really refering to statement_control:sym<require>?
19:56 moritz timotimo: correct
19:56 moritz something like dissect_longname or so
19:57 FROGGS timotimo: Grammar.pm and Actions.pm have a similar structure (almost same-named methods), World.pm is a collection of functions, if you see a $*W somewhere it's World.pm
19:59 timotimo okay, i should really do this on my desktop instead of my weak laptop :)
20:01 sorear masak: like the electron?
20:02 FROGGS sorear: is that why my electricity bill is that high?
20:08 masak sorear: there used to be one electron, but now there's two: the new one represents "green energy".
20:09 moritz and its spin is opposite to the old one
20:10 FROGGS moritz: that would be an anti-electron, if I remember my little hawkin book right
20:11 moritz FROGGS: nah, I'm merely talking about the value of the magnetic quantum number
20:12 moritz +ℏ/2 or -ℏ/2
20:12 FROGGS okay, I better get back to hackery ;o)
20:15 masak moritz: the spin is Greenspun, of course. :P
20:37 quester joined #perl6
20:51 * [Coke] wants a list of solitaire games he can search by how you play it, so he can figure out the name of this braindead time killer.
20:53 FROGGS [Coke]: maybe ask rindolf, he knows some
20:53 timotimo does scheme source code count as "searchable by how to play"? ;)
21:03 colomon rn: say (+^0x1234).base(16)
21:03 p6eval rakudo a93058, niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«-1235␤»
21:04 colomon hurm
21:04 colomon r: say (+^0x4345839048690348598349583490589034859034859084390583905890385903859).base(16)
21:04 p6eval rakudo a93058: OUTPUT«-434583904869034859834958349058903485903485908439058390589038590385A␤»
21:05 moritz colomon: note that rakudo's bigint ops aren't reliably when it comes to sign changes
21:06 colomon moritz: I just got to wondering what +^ is actually supposed to do
21:06 colomon since I was thinking of trying to make it work on bigints in niecza.
21:09 sorear +^ is -*-1
21:10 JJ_Brain joined #perl6
21:11 colomon sorear: I was sort of coming to that conclusion.
21:12 colomon but then, why isn't public static BigInteger operator~ a one liner?
21:13 colomon rn: say -1 +& 0xffffffffffffffffffffffff
21:13 p6eval rakudo a93058, niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«79228162514264337593543950335␤»
21:14 colomon rn: say (-1 +& 0xffffffffffffffffffffffff).base(16)
21:14 p6eval rakudo a93058, niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF␤»
21:24 colomon rn: say 1 +< (2**64 + 1)
21:24 p6eval rakudo a93058: OUTPUT«2␤»
21:24 p6eval ..niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:24 colomon rn: say 1 +< (3)
21:24 p6eval rakudo a93058, niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«8␤»
21:24 colomon rn: say 1 +< (2**63)
21:24 p6eval rakudo a93058, niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:24 colomon rn: say 1 +< (2**31)
21:24 p6eval niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:24 p6eval ..rakudo a93058: OUTPUT«65536␤»
21:25 colomon rn: say 2 ** 31
21:25 p6eval rakudo a93058, niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«2147483648␤»
21:25 colomon rn: say 2**(2**31)
21:25 p6eval niecza v24-14-gaea5a41: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
21:25 p6eval ..rakudo a93058: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
21:27 colomon r: say 0xdeaddead0000deaddead0000dead +< 4
21:27 p6eval rakudo a93058: OUTPUT«72263525103072027874911344258837200␤»
21:28 dalek roast: d8704e0 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/bit.t:
21:28 dalek roast: Add simple bigint +< and +> tests.
21:28 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d8704e0d9e
21:36 masak all this makes me think of 2-adic numbers.
21:48 pmurias jnthn: ping
22:07 mtk joined #perl6
22:07 dalek niecza: 7986efc | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/Builtins.cs:
22:07 dalek niecza: Change numlshift and numrshfit to handle bigints.
22:07 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/7986efcd22
22:08 masak pmurias: you can ping jnthn, but he's not likely to reply within the next 48 hours.
22:43 pmurias masak: I just want to avoid asking him questions I might figure out the answer to before he sees them ;)
22:44 timotimo video recording frustrates me greatly. the only very workable solution i found so far makes my pretty colors unpretty
22:45 timotimo well, unpretty colors it is.
22:51 alec__ joined #perl6
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23:22 masak TV Tropes calls an autopun a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfDemonstratingArticle
23:26 aindilis joined #perl6
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23:36 pmurias timotimo: you are making a screencast?
23:36 timotimo i'm trying, yes d)
23:36 timotimo :)
23:41 masak 'night, #perl6
23:42 timotimo 'night masak!
23:42 colomon \o
23:56 timotimo okay, i've recorded stuff. now i just have to convince myself that i've done it good enough so that i can put it up on the 'nets :P

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