Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-02-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 jnthn Oh
00:00 jnthn yeah, OK, that bit is :)
00:00 jnthn s/nothing/few things/ :)
00:00 jnthn Maybe I should add a :generic to mark those out.
00:01 jnthn (as in, the ones that are likely generic)
00:02 pmurias if something is generic we should implement it on all vms and avoid QAST::VM
00:03 jnthn In the case of forceouter, yes, it should be an nqp::op implemented everywhere.
00:03 masak 'night, #perl6
00:07 timotimo night masak
00:07 timotimo stay positive :)
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00:20 jnthn Grrr...something is still not quite right somewhere. Getting the odd serialization error.
00:20 jnthn Well, enough for today... 'night &
00:23 felher 'night, jnthn
00:35 dalek rakudo-js: 669640b | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (5 files):
00:35 dalek rakudo-js: Update to work with nqp commit 3089165aa0646a334d24792cb7434051bdd4900f.
00:35 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/669640bbee
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02:19 colomon o/
02:47 sorear o/ colomon
02:48 colomon sorear: how's it going?
02:48 sorear good
02:49 colomon glad to hear it!
02:49 colomon my $work has been driving me insane the last week.
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03:45 swarley You know you're lazy when you make an executable to add your license header to all of your source files that don't have it
03:46 bonsaikitten swarley: you're not lazy enough when that executable is more than a three-line shell script ;)
03:46 swarley Good point
03:47 swarley https://gist.github.com/swarley/4736308 :p
03:48 bonsaikitten too much work! ;)
03:48 swarley Well I needed a reason to learn more Go anyway ;p
03:48 bonsaikitten I haven't had a motivation yet
03:48 bonsaikitten OpenDylan is distracting me enough
03:49 swarley It's pretty hard to get into learning Go
03:49 swarley But if you get past the top it's actually pretty interesting
03:49 swarley It's compiled but it has garbage collection and polymorphism
03:50 rking Go is the most meh'tastic thing I've seen in a while.
03:50 swarley I'm on the fence about it in a lot of places
03:50 rking There are a few others vying for that title, though. Like Dart.
03:50 rking I think it's got a lot of good engineering for a lot of problems that I don't have.
03:50 swarley What is PAWN doing?
03:50 bonsaikitten rking: that describes most "innovation"
03:51 swarley I have no idea what the hell PAWN even is really. It looks like C to me based on the hello world
03:51 rking The one I'm waiting for an excuse to learn is in the channel name.
03:51 rking I still don't know how it'll fit into my "Used to use Perl5, use/like Ruby, dream of Smalltalk" world.
03:52 swarley lol. I use nqp more than I use perl6 tbh
03:52 bonsaikitten similar for me
03:52 bonsaikitten I just think it's still an interesting experiment and package it for gentoo
03:52 swarley PAWN seems like a stupid language
03:52 bonsaikitten ... like OpenDylan, OpenCOBOL, J and a few others
03:53 swarley like exactly the same syntax as C
03:53 swarley but it's scripted..
03:54 swarley I don't know, nothing I would be motivated to use
03:54 swarley I'd learn lua before any other new language
03:54 swarley I still have C#, Perl6 to completeness (NQP included), and Go to finish learning
03:55 bonsaikitten swarley: as far as I can tell lua has some nice ideas, but is too much manual work
03:55 bonsaikitten not sure if it's that useful ... but it seems to make lots of people happy
03:55 swarley I like the fact that Lua is embedded easily
03:55 swarley But I'm iffy on the syntax
03:57 bonsaikitten yes, but it doesn't have any proper refcounting / GC as far as I remember
03:57 bonsaikitten so it's very easy to get it wrong
03:58 swarley Ah. That's something that drew me into Go
03:58 bonsaikitten for me python covers most of that, and if I need things to be faster it's usually C
03:58 swarley They have a concurrent mark-sweep GC added in with the goal of minimal overhead
03:58 bonsaikitten with shell and perl5 covering the glue between things
03:59 swarley Yeah, I use ruby when speed isn't an issue, C extensions for ruby when its only a desire, and C++/C when it's a necessity
03:59 swarley I prefer not to do large projects in C though. It feels like the code gets unruly quickly
03:59 bonsaikitten yes
03:59 bonsaikitten takes lots of discipline to keep it nice
04:00 bonsaikitten re: ruby, my brain can't parse it, it's just "wrong" in every aspect - plus the ecosystem is filled with bad code, bad advice and bad behaviour (who needs releases lol)
04:00 swarley ?
04:01 swarley Please elaborate, I'm a fairly active member of the community and we don't really try to give bad advice
04:01 swarley same for rking
04:01 swarley I usually feel a lot less anxiety about asking a question in #ruby than i do in #perl
04:01 bonsaikitten well, most of the documentation I tend to stumble over is random blog posts
04:02 geekosaur ruby:  bastard child of perl 5 and smalltalk.  obj-c knowledge might help some...
04:02 swarley Ah. Well it depends on what you're looking up.
04:02 swarley If it's the standard library, that's all documented and hosted on the same server
04:02 bonsaikitten swarley: there are some pretty smart people in the ruby cloud, and lots of people that found php too difficult and never figured out basic sanity checks
04:02 swarley If it's a 3rd party gem, that's up to the developer
04:03 swarley oh god, yes that pisses me off
04:03 bonsaikitten but that's the added value, a module for everything
04:03 rking "Ruby is if Smalltalk and Lisp had a love child, but left it in the care of its nanny, Perl."
04:03 bonsaikitten well, at least they don't do error handling a la php - print a message to stdout *headdesk*
04:03 swarley I think there is a quote of me somewhere actually telling someone to "crawl back into the hole their frightened PHP emerged from"
04:03 bonsaikitten that's not how you handle errors :(
04:03 geekosaur the ruby community has some very good guidelines for how to handle versioning... which are not merely ignored but actively violated by most gem developers
04:04 swarley What? Module for everything?
04:04 swarley I think you're confusing good ruby with common ruby ;)
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04:06 swarley Not to say, that I myself even write good ruby. In fact, I would say I'm about lower level advanced. So, not that special. I just keep my mouth shut when I see people coming in doing $i = 5; $i.times {|x| x += $i } and don't yell at them to at least read chapter one of any tutorial
04:06 swarley brb
04:15 dwoldrich Hey perl6 guys, I think Parrot was a great idea, I was hoping to see it succeed, am sad you all turned your backs on the project, and I think it's silly to target the JVM or invest man hours in it.
04:16 dwoldrich Just because the JVM can execute JVM bytecode faster than Parrot byte codes TODAY, doesn't make that so in the future.  If you recall, the JVM was a sloth up until around JDK 1.5 or so.
04:17 dwoldrich And Oracle is going to tank the JVM, why oh why would you board a leaky, if not sinking, ship??
04:19 dwoldrich Parrot should have been your glittering jewel, not Perl6.  Parrot could have had legs, 20 year lifespan, developers and business porting AWAY from the JVM!
04:19 sorear dwoldrich: I think you have never tried to use Parrot
04:19 dwoldrich I am not saying that Parrot, or Perl6, were the best run or designed projects.
04:20 dwoldrich But what I am saying is, the vision was right on
04:20 dwoldrich If only you all could come together and be one team
04:20 dwoldrich not sure why the "throw it over the wall" deal existed
04:20 sorear hahahahaha
04:21 dwoldrich You just never saw yourself as competition with JVM, and that saddens me, because right around the time Parrot hit 1.0, the obsolescence and design cruft was setting in on the JVM
04:22 dwoldrich I watched the changelogs and was like, what the heck is the goal here?
04:22 bonsaikitten dwoldrich: the JVM has a lot more manpower behind it, so it won't just disappear
04:22 bonsaikitten and just because someone experiments doesn't mean that everyone abandons their current project
04:23 dwoldrich you all said Parrot's dead
04:23 dwoldrich I'll take you at your word
04:24 bonsaikitten "all" ? pfff.
04:24 bonsaikitten you must be a journalist
04:24 dwoldrich no, not even a perl developer
04:24 dwoldrich I'm a Java developer
04:25 dwoldrich and I don't like what I'm seeing in the java community
04:25 dwoldrich looking for options now
04:25 sorear you sound like a regular contributor to perl6-language@perl.org
04:25 dwoldrich ?
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04:34 swarley So what is the collective opinion on targeting Go for an nqp output? I figure.. Go has a lot of cool features going for it and it compiles very fast
04:35 swarley I mean unless its not even possible I'll still have a whack at it, but id like to hear opinions
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04:39 dwoldrich What other VM's could you target that don't have a corporate overlord/owner?  Doesn't PHP have an underlying VM?
04:39 dwoldrich Why do you have to go with Google or Oracle, seriously?
04:40 dwoldrich ain't there good FOSS options?
04:40 * geekosaur *eyeroll*
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04:40 dwoldrich :D
04:41 dwoldrich Just making the "business case" for Parrot, just sayin'.
04:41 geekosaur niecza uses mono, if that's not pure enough for you then you're welcome to go digging for a *nonsucky* alternative
04:41 dwoldrich yeah!!
04:41 dwoldrich mono's good
04:41 dwoldrich why not target that?
04:41 geekosaur ...
04:42 * geekosaur points to the first three words of what he said
04:42 dwoldrich again, let me present, Parrot.
04:42 dwoldrich or the Parrot that could be
04:42 dwoldrich :P
04:42 geekosaur and let me repeat "nonsucky"
04:42 dwoldrich Make it so.
04:42 geekosaur consideringt he amount of times I see rakudo having to work around the parrot internals thrashing...
04:42 dwoldrich I demand a non-sucky Parrot immediately
04:42 rindolf dwoldrich: a VM is any interpreter or CPU.
04:42 geekosaur well, bully foryou
04:42 rindolf dwoldrich: even perl 4 was a VM.
04:43 rindolf dwoldrich: and Perl 5 has a VM too.
04:43 rindolf dwoldrich: VM == virtual machine.
04:43 dwoldrich I need a write once run anywhere byte code interpreter/JIT'er, plz
04:43 swarley There is gccgo..
04:43 swarley And cgo
04:43 rindolf dwoldrich: Java? Mono? Parrot?
04:45 swarley Go to an extent
04:45 swarley If you code with portability in mind
04:46 swarley Use os.FileSeparator instead of "/" etc
04:47 swarley There is no VM mesiah.
04:48 swarley The reason i keep jumping around is because i realize im attempting something unwise or better left to someone else
04:50 swarley Llvm: unwise .. Yarv: unwise.. CIL: i bet someone can do it infinitely  better than myself.
04:56 colomon rn: say 9.is-prime
04:56 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b, niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«False␤»
04:57 sorear dwoldrich: anyway, if you want parrot to become usable, take it to #parrot on irc.perl.net
04:57 sorear *irc.perl.org
04:59 dwoldrich rindolf: I like the idea of Parrot.  As I understand it, it didn't have a stable bytecode, and thus required a source language to feed it parrot assembly code, which to me makes it a non-starter.  A VM should be responsible for verifying, loading, and running bytecodes, very well-specified bytecodes.
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05:00 sorear dwoldrich: you just replied to someone who isn't even here.
05:00 dwoldrich darn
05:00 dwoldrich well bring him back
05:01 dwoldrich or her
05:01 sorear You do it.
05:01 dwoldrich Alright I will!
05:02 dwoldrich sorear: I want parrot to be valued as a project first, then treasured, then used (by Perl6), and THEN made usable.  :D
05:04 colomon rn: say (2, 3, * + 2 ... *).grep(*.is-prime)[^10]
05:04 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b, niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29␤»
05:04 swarley It just doesn't seem wise to use a VM still being made stable with a language still waiting for a first full implementation
05:05 swarley Let me clarify
05:05 swarley A VM with the aims of parrot
05:05 dwoldrich swarley: that
05:05 dwoldrich that's a good point
05:05 dwoldrich But I think a byte code specification
05:05 dwoldrich iron clad
05:05 dwoldrich would have smoothed out a lot of wrinkles
05:05 colomon rn: my @primes := (2, 3, * + 2 ... *).grep(*.is-prime); say @primes[^10]
05:05 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b, niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29␤»
05:06 sorear dwoldrich: we have no influence on parrot whatsoever here.
05:06 sorear they do whatever they please.
05:06 sorear if you want to be part of the parrot decision process, join #parrot on irc.perl.org
05:06 sorear sorry.
05:06 dwoldrich Yeah, I detect your frustration
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05:08 dwoldrich I think because parrot is yoked to perl6, though, your (perceived/real) abandonment of that project gives the impression that it is doomed.
05:08 dwoldrich and if you're not going to do your own parrot fork
05:09 swarley Parrot isn't really bound to perl6
05:09 dwoldrich then, let's all hope Oracle is a nice steward of the heart that pumps the blood through our veins.  :/
05:10 dwoldrich I think it is
05:10 swarley Parrot is independent entirely of perl6
05:10 dwoldrich It wasn't always
05:10 swarley Without perl 6 parrot could still go on, its popularity is just to be determined by how well they can get it working
05:11 swarley I really don't understand your logic
05:11 swarley The way I understand it
05:11 swarley Parrot is an all purpose vm
05:11 dwoldrich The flagship for Parrot was Perl6, it was billed as being an engine flexible enough to be a target for that language
05:11 dalek ecosystem: 92886d4 | colomon++ | META.list:
05:11 dalek ecosystem: Remove obsolete Math::Prime from the ecosystem.
05:11 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/92886d4a0f
05:12 dwoldrich Without the flagship, how will it know which way to sail?
05:12 swarley Uh, it seems to be doing much better with jvm and cil based on benchmarks
05:12 sorear dwoldrich: you seem to have heard very precious little of the news from the last five years
05:13 dwoldrich this is true
05:13 dwoldrich I don't soak in Perl news
05:13 dwoldrich But I am interested!
05:14 swarley Then you may want to start by finding out that parrot is almost completely removed from nqp i believe
05:14 sorear then I should tell you that #perl6 is now a place where we care about things that work
05:14 dwoldrich I just want to say that I believe the JVM, knowing what I know about the jvm byte codes and the new stuff in JDK 7, could be a fast execution engine for Perl6
05:14 sorear we've banished all the people with revolutionary fantasies
05:15 swarley Okay?.. that's what nqp-jvm is for
05:15 dwoldrich if, at the end of the day, all objects were just hashmaps to function pointers and values, it would still work pretty fast
05:15 dwoldrich right
05:16 dwoldrich I'm saying, that that course is going to perform okay, so-so, maybe fast in very specific scenarios where you can do more with dynamicinvoke on JDK7
05:16 swarley I think the main goal here is to have it just work
05:17 swarley And then we worry about speed later after everything works
05:17 * geekosaur thinks the chanel has been rather successfully trolled...
05:17 dwoldrich Right
05:17 dwoldrich Not a bad plan
05:18 sorear geekosaur: do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity
05:18 sorear although I would use a gentler word than stupidity
05:18 dwoldrich I'm just saying Parrot, as a long term visionary, we can host the world's code thing, is a better plan
05:18 swarley Lol'd
05:18 dwoldrich don't be smug
05:18 dwoldrich I'm trying to be helpful
05:19 lue One advantage of JVM over parrot right now is that more people use JVM and JVM is (probably) more trusted, especially in business settings.
05:19 swarley Parrot, as of this moment, gives rakudo a reputation of a terribly slow and unusable interpreter
05:19 dwoldrich yeah, at some point someone said, this thing is unworkable, I bet
05:20 swarley Not functionally, just resource and speed
05:20 geekosaur you missed some of the earlier stuff
05:20 geekosaur [07 23:42] <dwoldrich> I demand a non-sucky Parrot immediately
05:20 dwoldrich :)
05:20 dwoldrich I thought that was funny!
05:20 swarley Then go bitch to them about it
05:20 dwoldrich You don't share my vision, then?
05:20 lue dwoldrich: Are you aware of the existing effort to put nqp (and as a result rakudo) on the JVM?
05:21 swarley No, I think parrot is a marvelous idea.
05:21 dwoldrich JVM byte codes are last century, man
05:21 swarley However
05:21 swarley Wasting time with it right now is pointless
05:21 dwoldrich fair enough
05:21 * geekosaur would quote more backscroll but doesn't see the point
05:22 dwoldrich perhaps, when Perl 6 settles out
05:22 dwoldrich and when JVM is a good performing target
05:22 swarley Perl6 isn't the problem
05:22 dwoldrich we can revisit the parrot thing
05:22 dwoldrich Oh, I think Perl6 is part of the problem
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05:22 swarley Parrot is the problem
05:22 dwoldrich your team is problematic
05:22 dwoldrich design churn, rewrites, replatforming
05:22 dwoldrich c'mon
05:22 sorear you come in here and immediately act like you own the place
05:23 sorear you _don't_
05:23 dwoldrich Just trying to be helpful
05:23 sorear and failing.
05:23 sorear epically.
05:23 swarley I would hardly call the team problematic
05:23 swarley Things are done with careful consideration
05:24 swarley I'm not even on the team, I'm just here because I admire them
05:24 lue dwoldrich: about the rewrites: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/2012-stop-the-rewrites.html
05:24 sorear dwoldrich treats the JVM thing as some spur-of-the-moment decision
05:24 dwoldrich I don't know, can't say.  Just know by the news stories I read
05:24 sorear we spent more than a year on that
05:24 sorear so don't pretend you can make a difference
05:24 sorear unless you want to spend a year arguing your point of view
05:24 au swarley: nqp-go is a fabulous idea, I'd love to see it.
05:25 swarley I think that using go routines would be a nifty optimization for certain areas
05:25 swarley Concurrency without having to do anything special
05:26 au *nod*
05:26 dwoldrich lue: I have read that story before, is it inaccurate?
05:26 swarley I started writing some type definitions for the objects, its a lot more readable than I expected it to be
05:27 au yup.
05:27 au ...and when an implementor learns, we all learn :)
05:27 swarley I think its a plausible idea, I plan to give it some more work over the following week and see where it leads.
05:27 lue no, it's right. The part I take away from it is that sometimes rewrites are necessary (and also the last three subsystem rewrites didn't break everything)
05:27 au swarley++
05:28 swarley And since it has its own garbage collector and all of that fun stuff, no mess in that area. So I think its a reasonable candidate
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05:29 sorear au: hey, I just noticed that you're not on the chanserv ACL since we rebuilt that.
05:29 sorear want me to fix that now?
05:30 au sorear: sure, thx much
05:31 au swarley: there's some early work (not quite nqp, but similar) at https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/blob/master/src6/lib/Perlito6/Go/Emitter.pm which may be informative if not dircetly reusable
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05:31 swarley Oh. What license is nqp/rakudo under?
05:31 sorear artistic 2, isn't it?
05:31 au Artistic 2.
05:31 swarley Thanks au, I'll take a read
05:31 sorear OTOH we have the CLA stuff to deal with
05:32 sorear we'd need to get a signed attestation from fglock that that code is usable
05:34 swarley Alright,  I wanted to make sure before I added any code to my repo so that I could change my license, the one I have in there now is MPL
05:34 au swarley: as long as you're the sole author you can always change the license at any point :)
05:35 * au has bypassed this CLA & license compatibility business just by using CC0 for everything :p
05:36 swarley Yup, I almost never have help on my projects. So I tend to jump around occasionally from GPL to MPL
05:36 moritz \o morning
05:36 sorear o/ moritzning
05:37 japhb swarley, IANAL, but for the Perl 6 community, if you're not going to go au++'s route of CC0, you might consider Artistic 2.  You'll find it probably the most common Perl 6 license, and it is GPL-compatible.
05:37 moritz what's CCO? Creative COmmons?
05:38 japhb http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
05:39 lue Beefier public domain, IIRC
05:39 moritz woah, quite permissive
05:40 au ensured compatibility
05:42 japhb au, are you still active in the Perl 5 community?
05:43 japhb (I spend most of my "community time" here, so I've kindof lost touch with who's who on the Perl 5 side of late ...)
05:44 au japhb: I still maintain some of the modules and pull reqs from time to time.
05:44 japhb Fair enough.
05:44 swarley I just read Artistic 2, I think I like that the most out of any so far
05:44 au swarley++ # awesome
05:45 swarley That's a really good licensing strategy
05:45 swarley And I'm assuming that applies to your code as a whole, so no header?
05:46 japhb I'm looking at building a list of modules and functionality that should be higher-priority for us to port from Perl 5, and I'm looking for good ways to figure out what people are relying on and is considered relatively state of the art.
05:46 sorear what does au do these days?
05:46 japhb The first thing that occurred to me was the CPAN 100: Volatile 100, which lists most-depended-on modules.
05:47 japhb But that ends up being a lot of testing and low-level infrastructure.
05:47 sorear .oO( Task::Weaken )
05:47 moritz swarley: IANAL, but I think the common stance is that using a header file or a Perl module isn't a derivative work, so you can do it in any project
05:49 japhb sorear, Oh yeah, I'd seen that one before, but forgotten about it, since I didn't happen to need it.  Annoying as heck that someone had to go and do that, though.
05:50 swarley So just a COPYING and LICENSE file at the root would do?
05:51 au sorear: differs from week to week. last week was mostly hacking with folks on g0v.tw ( http://g0v.tw/about.html ) to build a unicode chinese-chinese dictionary by scraping government data with legacy encoding.
05:51 japhb Anyway, I'm looking for suggestions of places to investigate.  Clearly things like the Perl 5 core modules, common sense stuff like DBI, modules that are packaged under lots of Linux distros and/or Strawberry Perl ...
05:52 au sorear: after a hackathon with 200ish folks, there's a longish list of repos in http://3du.tw/ with ports that covers pretty much all the mainstream development platforms, including http://moedict.tw/ :)
05:52 au sorear: and it'll be something entirely different next week, likely.
05:57 au japhb: modules that are in Strawberry or ActivePerl but not in Perl Core is a good list to start imvho.
05:57 japhb au, thank you, good point.
05:57 sorear japhb: Task::BeLike::DOY?
05:58 au it's one of your points, I just highlighted that particular one :p
05:59 japhb au: Nodnod, I meant, good interpretation/angle on it.  I was thinking about comparing across packaging systems, as opposed to diffing the Windows ones against core.
06:00 japhb sorear, Hmmm, interesting.  Anyone else that did that whose taste you trust?
06:01 sorear metacpan knows about rafl, rjbs, and sartak
06:01 sorear I don't know any of the others
06:01 sorear (i.e. I don't know avar very well)
06:02 sorear (also note: rafl is spelled FLORA on cpahn)
06:02 japhb Thank you, sorear
06:03 sorear it's probably not a coincidence that this set of people overlaps strongly with the moose core team
06:04 japhb Moose-ers seem to be more likely to be CPANers.  :-)
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07:20 FROGGS morning
07:32 sorear o/ FROGGS
07:32 FROGGS hi sorear
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08:03 arnsholt o/
08:03 phenny arnsholt: 07 Feb 23:32Z <jnthn> tell arnsholt I think some of the offset compuation wasn't quite right after all... Gave it a tweak in 263332d.
08:03 arnsholt That makes sense
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08:13 FROGGS morning arnsholt
08:13 sorear o/ arnsholt
08:14 masak morning, #perl6
08:14 moritz \o masak
08:19 domidumont joined #perl6
08:20 FROGGS hi masak
08:20 FROGGS hi moritz
08:20 moritz \o FROGGS, arnsholt, *
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10:56 masak I love Deferreds. http://api.jquery.com/category/deferred-object/ Does the GoF book bring them up at all? I did a quick skim through the list of patterns but didn't find anything like it.
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11:16 moritz .oO( DerfeRedHerrings? )
11:16 moritz but yes, looks like quite a handy concept
11:17 masak I keep seeing variants of it everywhere. it's in the air somehow.
11:17 masak it goes well with all this async/eventy stuff that's also in the air these days.
11:21 arnsholt Has anyone else tried to build Rakudo HEAD with NQP HEAD?
11:22 arnsholt I get a compile error when compiling RESTRICTED.setting: "Serialization Error: Unimplemented object type 'ArrayIterator' passed to write_ref"
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11:30 arnsholt pmurias: jnthn++ has possibly updated some stuff in NQP that can help your problem. Do you have time to test it again?
11:37 pmurias arnsholt: sure
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11:45 kresike hello all you happy perl6 people
11:46 FROGGS hi kresike
11:46 kresike FROGGS, o/
11:47 masak kresike! \o/
11:47 kresike masak, o/
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12:04 not_gerd joined #perl6
12:04 not_gerd r: ("x" x 100000) x 100000
12:04 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«Failed allocation of 1410065440 bytes␤Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem!␤C file src/gc/alloc_memory.c, line 105␤Parrot file (not available), line (not available)␤␤We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on␤Parrot.  Use parrotbug (locate…
12:05 not_gerd see http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/parrot-dev/2013-February/007332.html
12:06 pmurias arnsholt: seems to fix the problem
12:06 not_gerd with the right parameters, this gives a segfault instead of an OOM error
12:06 arnsholt pmurias: Excellent!
12:09 not_gerd r: "xxx" x (3 x 111)
12:09 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
12:10 not_gerd \o/
12:39 nwc10 jnthn++ # multi-dispatch. And more code in a higher level language
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12:43 masak jnthn++
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13:07 pmurias why do we test deletepos with a negative value?
13:08 tadzik because it can happen
13:08 tadzik and I'd rather if we know what happens when someone tries
13:08 pmurias an exception should be thrown?
13:08 tadzik existspos works for negative, for example
13:09 tadzik Just Works [tm]
13:09 pmurias by testing stupid usage you force all the implementations to implement it
13:10 pmurias and make it seems acceptable for users to depend on it
13:11 tadzik it didn't have tests before, and no one really knows how is it actually used
13:11 nwc10 what *is* using it? ie - if you locally change it to throw an exception, how many tests fail?
13:12 tadzik so I prefered to replicate Parrot as closely as possible, and _have_ tests for that
13:12 masak wait, in what way does it just work?
13:12 tadzik what, existspos?
13:12 masak either of them.
13:12 tadzik nwc10: we'll never know until we check with Rakudo
13:12 masak I agree that it's not a good idea to support negative positions out-of-the-box.
13:12 nwc10 that is what I mean.
13:12 tadzik existspos counts from the back, like *-n
13:12 nwc10 change it locally, rebuild rakudo, run the spectests
13:12 nwc10 what fails?
13:12 tadzik deletepos removes the 0th element, always
13:12 masak it's internal leakage like that that causes hard-to-predict bugs up at the user level.
13:12 masak yeah, I don't like it.
13:13 tadzik well, feel free to change it
13:13 masak I'm at $dayjob.
13:13 masak but if no-one has done it by tomorrow, I will.
13:13 nwc10 answer that, and you get to a pretty good idea of what (if anything) in the compiler need to change to avoid it
13:13 tadzik I've been reimplementing Parrot opcodes in Java, I wanted them to work alike, especially because they're not tested
13:13 masak nwc10: anything that does use it should be changed, too :)
13:13 tadzik well, maybe they're tested in Parrot
13:14 masak it's good that we have tests for it.
13:14 masak it's bad that we accept silly inputs.
13:14 nwc10 parrot opcodes directly? rather than something related to NQP and the JVM prototype?
13:14 tadzik nwc10: nqp::opcodes. Which were directly mapped to pir::opcodes
13:15 nwc10 ah OK
13:15 nwc10 I still think the answer is to figure out whether NQP is even using the behaviour
13:15 pmurias it's not used by rakudo and nqp at all (according to ack)
13:15 tadzik look, maybe it's even better than they're changed. I didn't have any strong opinion, and wasn't really trying to come up with one. The task was "implement nqp::existpos and nqp::deletepos on JVM". I did. The same way that they works
13:15 pmurias the opcode itself
13:15 tadzik * worked
13:16 nwc10 oh, right. OK
13:16 tadzik I found the usage in rakudo, fwiw
13:16 masak jnthn says that existspos and deletepos are used in so few places, that "we don't need to worry [about the change being breaking] in this case".
13:16 tadzik at least existspos
13:16 pmurias tadzik: I'm not really blaming you, I just want to avoid porting crazy parrot behavior
13:16 tadzik and I have mixed feelings about deletepos anyway
13:16 tadzik pmurias: sure, that's reasonable
13:17 tadzik I'm all for reasonable behaviour  :)
13:17 masak tadzik: I'm also not blaming you. good work. :)
13:17 tadzik heh, no offence taken :)
13:17 masak tadzik: you'll find that when you do good work, people will have opinions ;)
13:18 tadzik so, who wants to come up with sane existspos and deletepos tests? :)
13:20 masak tadzik: happy path: non-negative inputs. sad path: negative inputs.
13:20 masak there, done.
13:20 pmurias r: my $foo = [0,1,2,3,4];say $foo.elems;$foo[3] = Mu;say $foo.elems;$foo.delete(4);say $foo.elems;
13:20 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«5␤5␤3␤»
13:21 pmurias I have found a rakudo bug
13:26 pmurias how do I add an issue on github?
13:27 tadzik it may be closed for Rakudo
13:27 tadzik email rakudobug@perl.org
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13:28 * pmurias forgot his email password recently :(
13:29 pmurias my $foo = [0,1,2,3,4];say $foo.elems;$foo[4] = Mu;$foo[3] = Mu;say $foo.elems;$foo.delete(4);say $foo.elems;
13:29 masak we cannot help you there, sorry.
13:29 masak r: my $foo = [0,1,2,3,4];say $foo.elems;$foo[4] = Mu;$foo[3] = Mu;say $foo.elems;$foo.delete(4);say $foo.elems
13:29 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«5␤5␤3␤»
13:29 * masak submits rakuodbug
13:29 masak pmurias++
13:30 tadzik don't know about nqp, but on JVM we keep a constant value in QRPA which says how many elements are there
13:30 tadzik it probably needs to be updated when we set Mu somewhere
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13:31 moritz the problem is that if you delete an element that's not the last, it set to Mu
13:31 moritz because we don't have an offchannel way to store an array element as deleted
13:31 pmurias no
13:31 moritz no?
13:31 tadzik we have to settle of something: do we count the number of defined elements in the array, or do we count "the longest streak" of elements?
13:31 pmurias the problem is that if you delete the last element all the undefined elements before it get deletedf
13:32 moritz r: my @a = <a b c d>; @a.delete(2); say @a.perl
13:32 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«Array.new("a", "b", Any, "d")␤»
13:32 moritz tadzik: or do we simply keep the count separate, and don't do any magic
13:32 moritz pmurias: I'm (nearly) sure there's a spectest that requires that
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13:33 pmurias r: class Foo {};my $foo = [0,1,2,3,4];say $foo.elems;$foo[4] = Foo;$foo[3] = Foo;say $foo.elems;$foo.delete(4);say $foo.elems;
13:33 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«5␤5␤3␤»
13:33 pmurias moritz: it seems to be a bug in the code
13:33 moritz fwiw I agree that's undesirable
13:33 moritz but I can't quite imagine that it happened without any intention
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13:34 * masak adds this to the ticket
13:34 pmurias the spec seems to hold an distinction between elements that aren't in an array and those that are set to an undefined value
13:37 pmurias it should be very easy to fix using nqp::deletepos
13:38 dalek nqp: 55ae367 | (Paweł Murias)++ | t/nqp/59-nqpop.t:
13:38 dalek nqp: Avoid testing for negative arguments to nqp::deletepos.
13:38 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/55ae3675b2
13:38 nwc10 did that actually get designed in? Or was it just adopted unchanged from Perl 5?
13:39 tadzik pmurias++
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13:44 * [Coke] hurls http://xkcd.com/1171/ for masak.
13:45 pmurias deletepos moves values?
13:45 tadzik yes
13:46 masak [Coke]: I... I think I know all the requisite memes involved to get this joke.
13:46 pmurias why?
13:46 masak [Coke]: but I'm not tickled by it. so maybe I'm missing something.
13:46 [Coke] masak: then I feel bad for you, son.
13:46 masak :P
13:47 * [Coke] hits random, and gets this gem instead: http://xkcd.com/639/
13:47 tadzik pmurias: uh, because Parrot folks wrote it that way
13:47 [Coke] so, yes, copied from p5.
13:48 pmurias so it's a duplicated splice, parrot--
13:48 masak [Coke]: :P
13:48 cognominal masak: about xkcd, may be the pop up explains it. I can't make sense of it either
13:48 masak cognominal: no, the pop up didn't explain it. so maybe I am missing something.
13:48 tadzik it's a mixture of 2 jokes
13:48 nwc10 It's not a good thing to copy. Sparse arrays should be sparse
13:48 nwc10 and normal arrays not
13:49 tadzik 1) I have one problem. Oh, I'll use regexes, now I have two problems
13:49 tadzik 2) I've got 99 problems but bitches ain't one
13:49 tadzik well, "jokes"
13:49 [Coke] memes.
13:49 tadzik ayep
13:49 [Coke] it's a mememe.
13:49 [Coke] ... wow.
13:50 cognominal now the jay-z makes sense  http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-got-99-problems-but-a-bitch-aint-one
13:50 arnsholt 2) is from a song by Jay-Z
13:50 masak tadzik: yes, I knew both of those.
13:50 nwc10 otherwise, to be consistent, popping the last element of an array should shrink the array further if the new last element does not exist
13:50 arnsholt Thus the alt-text
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13:53 pmurias do Perl 5 arrays have a way to check for existance of an element?
13:53 nwc10 yes, hangon, writing a crazy test case demonstration
13:57 nwc10 http://pasta.test-smoke.org/437
13:59 pmurias thanks, I forgot to scroll down the perldoc manpage ;)
14:01 pmurias TimToady: is deleting elements from an Array using .delete something we want to keep, as it seems to be deprecated in Perl 5?
14:02 nwc10 it's useful for sparse arrays
14:03 nwc10 kind of necessary, really, to make them useful
14:03 * moritz would tend to introduce a separate class for sparse arrays
14:03 moritz our arrays are already resizable AND lazy
14:03 moritz and making them sparse too... *shudder*
14:04 moritz oh, and typable
14:04 nwc10 I *think* (but don't hold me to this) that having sparse arrays as an option is useful. But not the only thing. Or the default.
14:09 masak +1
14:10 masak JavaScript does sparse arrays as the default. and then all people do with JavaScript all day is handle (dense) DOM lists of child elements. d'oh.
14:17 arnsholt Oooooh, Dreamfall chapters kickstarter... I might actually back my first Kickstarter now
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14:30 masak arnsholt: what's Dreamfall?
14:31 arnsholt The sequel to The longest journey
14:32 arnsholt I really liked TLJ, and Dreamfall was intriguing (but flawed) as well
14:32 arnsholt Oh, and they're computer games
14:37 masak oh
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15:14 dd070 is it ready ?
15:15 tadzik my tea? Not anymore, I drank it all. What is that you're asking about? :)
15:15 dd070 perl6
15:15 tadzik the implementations are not quite finished
15:16 tadzik they're quite usable though
15:16 tadzik having, what, 20 or 30 monthly releases already
15:16 tadzik go on and try it
15:16 tadzik r: say "Hi dd070 "
15:16 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«Hi dd070 ␤»
15:16 dd070 cool
15:17 tadzik if that's any measure, we're passing about 24 000 tests of the official test suite
15:17 tadzik there are some things still missing: proper threads, proper async IO, mature module ecosystem
15:17 tadzik performance too, although that's being worked on
15:18 tadzik but it's suitable for playing around and writing some stuff in it
15:19 dd070 initially I hated implicit 'use strict' and 'use warnings'. but I would love it now.
15:20 dd070 its good in quick-dirty scripts too.
15:21 masak dd070: it's supposed to be off by default on the command line.
15:21 masak dd070: no implementation does that yet, though.
15:22 masak dd070: I'm never quite clear what people mean when they ask "is it ready". can I test a thing with you? I want to show you a document, and you can tell me if it answers your question better than just "yes" or "no".
15:22 masak dd070: https://gist.github.com/masak/43f95c5ba980dfee8cee
15:23 masak is that helpful?
15:24 dd070 yes.
15:25 masak \o/
15:25 masak dd070: people have been working for years on Perl 6. quite a bit of things are there already. but it's not, you know, something I'd say "sure, you can put it into production" to people about, without lots of qualifiers.
15:26 masak it goes without saying we're working towards that point. it takes a bit of time to get all of the pieces into place.
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: e56716e | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (2 files):
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: Add nqp-jvm-prep as a submodule.
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/e56716e73f
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: 3f5c935 | (Paweł Murias)++ | .gitignore:
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: update .gitignore
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/3f5c935402
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: 3800636 | (Paweł Murias)++ | run_tests:
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: Add passing qast_relational.t to run_tests.
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/38006367b2
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: 0ad92a1 | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (3 files):
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: Pass an updated t/qast_string.t directly from nqp-jvm-prep.
15:27 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/0ad92a1282
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15:29 dalek rakudo-js: 1b5f733 | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (3 files):
15:29 dalek rakudo-js: Pass an updated t/qast_math.t directly from nqp-jvm-prep.
15:29 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/1b5f733170
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15:32 masak dd070: come back soon!
15:32 [Coke] perl6: tuits welcome.
15:32 p6eval niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Confused at /tmp/3HBejTPyWT line 1:â�¤------> [32mtuits welcome[33mâ��[31m.[0mâ�¤â�¤Undeclared routines:â�¤    'tuits' used at line 1â�¤ 'welcome' used at line 1â�¤â�¤Parse failedâ�¤â�¤Â»
15:32 p6eval ..rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confusedâ�¤at /tmp/ffcmC7SMFl:1â�¤------> [32mtuits welcome.[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        dotty method or postfixâ�¤Â»
15:33 [Coke] perl6: our $marketing is bot-confusing;
15:33 p6eval niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Trait bot-confusing not available on variables at /tmp/Y0bOXea32w line 1:â�¤------> [32mour $marketing is bot-confusing[33mâ��[31m;[0mâ�¤â�¤Unhandled exception: Check failedâ�¤â�¤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1…
15:33 p6eval ..rakudo 4fb07b:  ( no output )
15:33 * [Coke] snrks.
15:35 masak [Coke]: that's what you get for calling Perl 6 "perl6" :P
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15:42 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
15:43 [Coke] We have so many marketing problems, perl6 vs. Perl&nbsp;6 is the least of my worries. ;)
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15:45 cxreg jnthn seems to be tearing through that jvm nqp port
15:46 masak aye.
15:46 [Coke] A thought about parrot vs. perl6, btw. I'd like to see both projects succeed, but I don't think that in order for either to succeed, the other must, and I don't think it's reasonable that tuits spent on one project are fungible to the other.
15:47 arnsholt The idea that tuits are fungible in general annoys me alot
15:47 arnsholt s/alot/a lot/
15:47 [Coke] I'm not suggesting that's the cause of any current discussion issues, but I've seen it historically. (when hacking on partcl, e.g. I often wanted to USE parrot, not figure out how to fix it.)
15:48 arnsholt There are so many reasons why a person decides to spend his spare time on a particular project, most of them probably non-technical, that it's hard to see them as fungible in any sensible way I think
15:48 [Coke] jvm/nqp... aye. I keep meaning to catch up and then there's 50 more commits.
15:48 nwc10 when hacking on PONIE, I most definately didn't want to have to hack on parrot. I'd not budgeted time for that.
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15:56 atrodo I think it's safe to say people want to use parrot, but not many people want to hack on parrot
15:57 benabik Hacking on parrot is a thankless job.
15:57 atrodo benabik: it really can be
15:58 [Coke] agreed.
15:58 [Coke] ... ew, I just had a horrible idea.
15:59 kresike bye folks
15:59 benabik Have to find a new project to work on this summer.  Given the complete lack of activity, I'm not hopeful for Parrot being in GSoC.
16:00 nwc10 hauge grants?
16:01 atrodo [Coke]: I've had a few of those past couple days too
16:01 pmurias nwc10: for parrot hacking?
16:01 masak atrodo: I'm curious what the context is of https://twitter.com/atrodo/status/299620421496627200 (and if there's something I/we can do to improve)
16:01 tadzik I doubt that the hague grants will be granted for parrot hacking
16:02 [Coke] tadzik: there are hague grants, regular GC grants...
16:02 tadzik sure
16:02 [Coke] PaFo has no infrastructure for getting/disbursing grants, so going through TPF is not a horrible idea.
16:03 [Coke] You'd just need a good grant proposal with clear benefits to the community.
16:03 [Coke] s/just//
16:03 benabik [Coke]: s/ for.*/./
16:04 atrodo masak: The context would be the drama that happened yesterday
16:04 [Coke] Having been on the board, I would disagree with the letter of your substitution, but agree with the spirit.
16:04 masak atrodo: yes, that much is clear. I don't like drama either.
16:05 masak atrodo: if you just meant "drama doesn't make me want to use Perl 6", than I understand you perfectly already.
16:07 atrodo masak: More or less, yes.
16:08 benabik I know it's early, but is #perl6 planning on GSoC?  Really need to find something this summer to keep me occupied/fed.
16:08 masak atrodo: if only there were a way to make Perl 6 without causing heat online. I wish I knew a way.
16:08 * pmurias would like to take part of GSoC too
16:11 tadzik me too, if that'd be possible
16:11 colomon what's the deadline for getting that organized?  it seems like we ought to be able to find things for people to do...
16:11 colomon I mean, if not core stuff, much-needed modules.
16:12 benabik Last year it was announced 2/4 and org deadline was 3/9
16:12 colomon so we need to get on the ball pronto.
16:12 benabik Well, AFAIK the announcement hasn't happened this year.
16:13 benabik (yet)
16:13 colomon afk but definitely interested in this topic # time to snowblow the driveway!
16:20 pmurias what's the difference between QAST::Stmts and QAST::Stmt?
16:21 benabik One's plural?
16:21 pmurias me found the difference in the docs
16:21 benabik I think Stmt is designed to limit things like temporary generation for a single statement, while Stmts is a sequence of code.  (Someone else can probably explain better.)
16:22 * benabik is far more familiar with PAST than QAST.  A little too familiar sometimes.
16:22 cognominal joined #perl6
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16:25 * benabik ponders if VMKit could actually be a reasonable way to do a "custom" NQP VM.
16:27 benabik Although their GC simultaneously impresses and scares me.  It uses MMTk, which is written in Java, by translating it through their VMKit-JVM into native code.
16:36 benabik joined #perl6
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16:46 pmurias benabik: don't we have a surplus of VMs? ;)
16:46 benabik pmurias: I'm a systems researcher?
16:48 benabik I'd like to play with a VM that uses 6model as its core object system.  I keep wondering if it would have the flexibility that Parrot didn't quite manage.
16:50 rindolf joined #perl6
16:50 arnsholt A 6model-based VM would indeed be interesting
16:51 PerlJam pmurias: there's always room for one more  :)
16:53 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
16:55 rindolf Hi all.
16:55 rindolf PerlJam: Jammin!!!
16:55 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
16:56 FROGGS I hate SOAP ó.ò
16:56 tail_ joined #perl6
16:56 rindolf FROGGS: join the support group - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/anti/SOAP/
16:57 tail_ hi
16:57 rindolf tail_: hi.
16:58 tail_ I have a problem
16:58 tail_ 'cabal install pugs' failed on my win7
17:00 tail_ I found a messeage 'Perhaps you need to add `haskell98' to the build-depends in your .cabal file'
17:00 [Coke] tail_: Not sure if we can help, but: what's the error message?
17:00 [Coke] ah.
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: 7ccf1fd | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (4 files):
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: Pass a bunch of tests directly from nqp-jvm-prep.
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/7ccf1fd13d
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: 271e02f | (Paweł Murias)++ | runtime.js:
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: Remove p6_num.
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/271e02f0d5
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: 00de30f | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (4 files):
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: Pass t/qast_conditional.t. Switch from using p6_true() to .Bool().
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/00de30fd6d
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: 581b72b | (Paweł Murias)++ | / (2 files):
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: Handle QAST::Stmt properly.
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/581b72bdf9
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: 77be5f0 | (Paweł Murias)++ | run (2 files):
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: Pass qast_terms.t
17:00 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/77be5f05f2
17:01 [Coke] and if you do that does it work?
17:02 tail_ see http://pastebin.com/2y2f97Fv
17:02 [Coke] pastebin blocked here.
17:03 tail_ Oh, I'm sorry
17:05 hoelzro|away joined #perl6
17:06 kaleem joined #perl6
17:08 felher joined #perl6
17:08 pmurias if I want to use some BSD 3 licence code in nqp-js what do I have to do to meet all the licence requirements?
17:09 domidumont joined #perl6
17:09 kaare_ joined #perl6
17:10 hoelzro|away joined #perl6
17:13 pmurias maybe using a library would be better then copy and paste ;)
17:15 [Coke] easier, aye.
17:16 [Coke] er, from a licensing perspective.
17:18 uvtc joined #perl6
17:21 FROGGS rindolf++
17:21 rindolf FROGGS: :-)
17:21 Chillance joined #perl6
17:21 hoelzro|away joined #perl6
17:25 cognominal joined #perl6
17:28 stevan_ jnthn++ # http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-02-07#i_6423586 thank you
17:36 kivutar joined #perl6
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: d3a6617 | au++ | pugs-compat/src/Pugs/Compat/Posix.hs:
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: * Workaround #25 by disabling opendir() on Windows.
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/d3a661779a
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: d467adb | au++ | pugs-compat/ (2 files):
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: * 0.0.6.20130209.0 as CC0.
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/d467adb945
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: 50efb57 | au++ | / (2 files):
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/Pugs.hs
17:37 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/50efb57770
17:37 tail_ something went wrong with pugs-compat-0.0.6.20120717.204800
17:38 cognominal joined #perl6
17:38 au tail_: yeah that's https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/issues/25 ; please "cabal update" and retry with 0.0.6.20130209.0
17:38 au released about 120 seconds ago
17:38 tail_ !!
17:39 tail_ okey, trying now
17:39 au you're welcome, too :) please re-open the issue if you run into any problem and I'll check next lunar year (that is to say, less than 24 hours from now)
17:43 tail_ thank you. pugs-compat successfully installed
17:44 au woot
17:44 au tail_++ for reminding me about this :)
17:45 au -> dreamland, with a happy smile &
17:45 tail_ au++
17:48 tail_ pugs-compat is ok, but it still says "Pugs-6.2.13.20120717 failed during the configure step."
17:49 tail_ * Missing (or bad) header file: perl5/p5embed.h
17:49 uvtc Is someone working on a Perl 6 --> Javascript compiler?
17:51 benabik uvtc: pmurias seems to be doing something with rakudo-js (I think still very early stages)
17:52 uvtc benabik: thanks.
17:52 tail_ it seems EXTERN.h is missing
17:57 uvtc benabik: you mentioned some reasons on the 5th here about the difficulties with using LLVM for Perl 6.
17:57 uvtc http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-02-05#i_6416952
17:57 benabik uvtc: It's much like building something from scratch.
17:57 uvtc I was going to add an Implementations FAQ to the wiki. Ok if I add in those points you mention?
17:57 benabik uvtc: Sure.
17:58 uvtc thanks
17:59 [Coke] au++ random pugs commits!
18:00 uvtc Is https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs the official github home of Pugs?
18:01 [Coke] as official as it gets, aye.
18:01 cognominal joined #perl6
18:01 uvtc Is it's purpose primarily experimental at this point?
18:02 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
18:02 uvtc I notice that it is no longer listed in the feature comparison matrix.
18:03 uvtc n/m
18:03 [Coke] it was experimental years ago.
18:04 uvtc understood
18:04 uvtc thanks
18:04 uvtc If someone wants to port Rakudo to another backend, what are the main pieces involved?
18:05 benabik QAST, rules engine, and REPRs?
18:05 uvtc Are those all parts of nqp?
18:05 [Coke] uvtc: port nqp.
18:05 benabik uvtc: Yes.
18:05 uvtc Cool. Thanks.
18:05 PerlJam uvtc: what other backend are you thinking about porting it to?
18:06 uvtc I am not. But a few days ago someone (pmurias?) mentioned that maybe Perl 6 could use an "Implementations FAQ". So I'm quickly writing up something for the wiki, and asking questions now as I type.
18:06 FROGGS nqp is the "glue language", but there are still some parrot specific thing in rakudo itself (I'm thinking of IO::Socket::INET)
18:06 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
18:06 FROGGS ++uvtc
18:07 au tail_: try "cabal install Pugs --flags=-Perl5" to install without Perl5 bindings. it's possible your perl installation had no compatible EXTERN.h
18:07 au cabal should actually retry that... not sure if Pugs.cabal can be tweaked to make that happen. pull requests welcome :)
18:07 au -> zz for real &
18:08 uvtc REPRs == regexes?
18:08 PerlJam uvtc: no
18:08 uvtc What are REPRs?
18:08 uvtc Sounds like something one would catch down by the river and fry up under the stars over a campfire.
18:09 PerlJam uvtc: REPRs are the "clostest to the metal" representation of things.
18:09 geekosaur cabal doesn't so much try things, in the sense of try the compile and then try it again on fail.  it's just a constraint solver and if you can't describe the constraint directly in the cabal file (as when you need to do configure search for perl5 guts) you can't have it automatically set that flag
18:17 tail_ It works!
18:17 tail_ Thank you for helpful advice au++
18:17 [Coke] \o/
18:22 uvtc http://wiki.perl6.org/Implementations%20Faq
18:24 cognominal joined #perl6
18:26 tail_ good night (3:30 here)
18:27 tail_ left #perl6
18:28 uvtc After using a language on the JVM (other than Java), my two general complaints are: (1) slow start-up time, and (2) contant gentle pressure to use Java-equivalents of libs that you'd really rather use instead. Hoping these aren't too big of a deal with Rakudo-on-JVM.
18:30 uvtc Er, Rakudo+JVM. Rakudo⌁JVM
18:32 [Coke] .u ⌁
18:32 phenny U+2301 ELECTRIC ARROW (⌁)
18:32 fgomez joined #perl6
18:32 uvtc I like that one. :)
18:33 cognominal joined #perl6
18:39 * rjbs just wanted to pop in and say how much he loves you all. »hugs«
18:41 PerlJam hugme: hug rjbs
18:41 * hugme hugs rjbs
18:41 PerlJam hugs by proxy  :)
18:42 rjbs good call.  I've been a bit sniffly, you don't want to catch anything
18:46 * [Coke] ~~ @ rjbs!
18:48 rjbs We going to see good p6 talks in Austin?
18:52 [Coke] Argh. I really wish I could convince work to pay for travel. :|
18:53 [Coke] jnthn will likely be there, so yes.
19:04 benabik joined #perl6
19:06 * diakopter laughs at dwoldrich in the backlog
19:08 uvtc s/dwoldrich/dwoldrich's comments/
19:08 uvtc :)
19:08 rjbs [Coke]: Where are you?
19:09 japhb_ joined #perl6
19:09 [Coke] rjbs: near Albany, NY
19:10 [Coke] the whole family drove to Houston a few years back, but I doubt that will happen this year. YAPC seems to have firmly settled on dates in the school year.
19:10 rjbs That's only 208 miles from here!  Coming to ABE.pm this week?
19:10 * moritz backlogs
19:10 moritz sorear++ # "then I should tell you that #perl6 is now a place where we care about things that work"
19:11 [Coke] rjbs: ... chrome does not want me to search for ABE.pm in the omnibox.
19:11 rjbs [Coke]: abe.pm.org in Bethlehem, PA
19:13 [Coke] rjbs: not this week, but if you have a big event, sure, I can swing by.
19:13 rjbs We tend to just get beers and burgers, but I'll let you know.  :-)  Peter Martini, author of the p5 work on core sub sigs, may be here this week.
19:14 uvtc (Actually, it's not very nice to laugh at folks' comments either, unless they're meant to be funny. Anyhow.)
19:16 vmspb joined #perl6
19:17 Targen joined #perl6
19:23 cogno joined #perl6
19:23 diakopter uvtc: lol?
19:24 uvtc I just meant that it seemed that maybe dwoldrich had other problems. That's all. And that I shouldn't have added that smiley above.
19:25 arnsholt Argh. Building Rakudo HEAD with NQP HEAD fails on both my work machine and laptop. Has anyone else gotten that combo to work?
19:29 kivutar joined #perl6
19:31 nwc10 no, I meant Hauge Grants for hacking on something Perl 6 instead of GSoC for hacking on Parrot. (If that's fun)
19:35 uvtc In pmichaud's "perl 6 lists and arrays" talk from June 2012 (it was actually a two-parter), he mentioned near the beginning (3:20) that Synopsis 7 & 8 are very wrong as of that date.
19:35 uvtc In fact, he says "don't read them", and that they'll just confuse you.
19:35 uvtc Have those issues been cleared up since then?
19:36 uvtc This talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrfK1dtyD14
19:36 moritz uvtc: I don't think so
19:36 uvtc Has the design been straightened out, just not the spec?
19:37 moritz uvtc: pmichaud has a grant for rewriting S07, but he got distracted by lots of real-life stuff
19:37 uvtc I understand about pmichaud.
19:38 uvtc Has the design/implementation settled down though? (that is, is it just the spec that is still behind?)
19:38 TimToady we were very clear here that we expected him to prioritize his family over Perl 6
19:38 uvtc Absolutely.
19:39 TimToady it's very close to right; there may be a few glitches yet in self-referential lists
19:41 uvtc TimToady, at http://perl6.org/compilers/features , I see that "LoL" (list of lists, I presume) is marked yellow. Is that one of the bits still being designed?
19:41 uvtc Or is it just not implemented yet?
19:41 TimToady partially implemented
19:42 cognominal joined #perl6
19:42 TimToady binding to ** works, but lol as a verb isn't there yet, last I knew
19:42 TimToady nr: say ((1..2),(3..4)).lol.perl
19:42 p6eval niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lol in type Parcel␤  at /tmp/BUDGjTfIKt line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4227 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4228 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤  at /home…
19:42 p6eval ..rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«LoL.new(1..2, 3..4)␤»
19:43 uvtc Sorry, right. I should've written s/not implemented/only partially implemented/ above.
19:43 TimToady I guess it's there-er than I thought
19:43 TimToady nr: say ((1..2),(3..4)).lol.[1].perl
19:43 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«3..4␤»
19:43 p6eval ..niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lol in type Parcel␤  at /tmp/I_FAHGgUoW line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4227 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4228 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤  at /home…
19:44 TimToady nr: say ((1..2),(3..4)).lol.[1].WHAT
19:44 p6eval niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lol in type Parcel␤  at /tmp/E8h7rwLnqq line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4227 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4228 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤  at /home…
19:44 p6eval ..rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«Range()␤»
19:44 TimToady nr: say ((<a b c>),(<d e f>)).lol.[1].WHAT
19:44 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
19:44 p6eval ..niecza v24-20-g93138cc: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method lol in type Parcel␤  at /tmp/R0Pmpq3fY9 line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4227 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4228 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤  at /home…
19:44 TimToady okay, enough spamm
19:44 TimToady ing
19:44 uvtc Where can I find the docs for `lol` at http://doc.perl6.org/ ?
19:45 uvtc Didn't see them under http://doc.perl6.org/type/List .
19:45 xenoterracide joined #perl6
19:45 TimToady S29:368, for one
19:46 uvtc Thanks.
19:46 FROGGS TimToady: btw, both niecza and rakudo have the same .gist for Matches
19:46 TimToady but it lies slightly
19:46 TimToady insofar as we don't have a Seq type
19:46 TimToady FROGGS: I saw that, FROGGS++
19:46 FROGGS it's awesome that one can almost copy+paste from one to the other
19:47 FROGGS working on niecza is pretty nice though, since it compiles so damn fast
19:47 arlinius joined #perl6
19:47 TimToady sorear++ thinks it's too slow :)
19:48 FROGGS thats the only thing I dont like about rakudo, it takes minutes to check changes to code when you have to recompile nqp and rakudo
19:48 FROGGS heh
19:48 TimToady well, the nice thing about eating one's own dogfood is that when the dogs are happier, so are you
19:52 rjbs rakudo: my $x = sub {}; say $x.^methods
19:52 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«No such method 'gist' for invocant of type 'Sub'␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:5128␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7595␤  in block  at /tmp/u4sD3jGU1D:1␤␤»
19:52 * rjbs wonders where his rakudo checkout went.
19:53 benabik r: my $x = sub {}; say $x.^methods.map: *.name
19:53 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«Unmarshallable foreign language value passed for parameter '$x0'␤  in block  at /tmp/GZgng_XLLx:1␤␤»
19:53 FROGGS there are rt tickets for that
19:54 rjbs FROGGS: yeah, I filed it
19:54 rjbs I wanted to see if it was still an issue, and I can't find a local rakudo, so I cheated and asked the bot. :)
19:54 * rjbs is compiling in the background now.
19:56 FROGGS :o)
19:59 atrodo_ joined #perl6
20:01 tadzik PLPW registration is now open! \o/
20:01 tadzik join the fun at http://act.yapc.eu/plpw2013/
20:01 cognominal joined #perl6
20:05 bruges_ joined #perl6
20:09 fgomez joined #perl6
20:13 * benabik gets segfaults compiling NQP.  :-(
20:14 FROGGS tadzik too
20:14 FROGGS err
20:14 FROGGS arnsholt too
20:16 cognominal joined #perl6
20:16 * japhb_ pulls and tries on a 32-bit Intel Linux box
20:20 dalek doc: c57c8d0 | (Gabor Szabo)++ | index.pl:
20:20 dalek doc: add listing of the words
20:20 dalek doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c57c8d085b
20:24 [Coke] hugme: hug chromatic
20:24 * hugme hugs chromatic and blushes
20:25 [Coke] ... that's odd.
20:25 benabik hugme has a crush?
20:25 tadzik what, you wouldn't blush?
20:28 pupoque joined #perl6
20:28 uvtc hugme: hug tadzik
20:28 * hugme hugs tadzik
20:28 uvtc Hm.
20:28 uvtc There is more to hugme than meets the eye.
20:29 tadzik the real beaty is not screen deep
20:29 tadzik * beauty
20:29 uvtc Beauty is in the eye of the behugger.
20:29 rjbs Hooray, I have a perl6 again.
20:29 FROGGS \o/
20:29 [Coke] rjbs: I challenge you to add the behugger to the monster manual.
20:29 rjbs One sec.
20:31 japhb_ benabik, FROGGS, arnsholt: I got a successful build of NQP on 32-bit Intel Linux.  FWIW, the command I used was:  make realclean; rm -rf install; git clean -dXf; perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot; make; make test; make install
20:31 japhb_ AKA "Paranoia R Us"
20:32 [Coke] if you're reall paranoid, you also need "rm parrot nqp" in there with install.
20:32 [Coke] since git clean doesn't do that.
20:32 * benabik builds Parrot separately.
20:32 [Coke] (ah, unless -X does when -x doesn't)
20:33 japhb_ [Coke], "Oh god I'm being crushed to death ... but man, it feels so fuzzy and soft and warm ....  aaaugghhzzcckkk."
20:33 rjbs [Coke]: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e5ae1013-1fa5-419e-b361-1b14eba9729b/7a60b6ad06c2cb10d5a1709159eb3379
20:33 [Coke] rjbs: (perl6 again). and don't you feel better now?
20:33 rjbs [Coke]: Mostly confused. :)
20:34 [Coke] hit dice? isn't that old school?
20:34 [Coke] or is it also new school? I stopped playing in '89. :(
20:34 rjbs [Coke]: I play the 1981 rules.
20:35 rjbs [Coke]: (I also play 4E, but with less gusto.)
20:35 benabik Monsters still have hit dice.
20:35 rjbs benabik: Not in 4E they don't.
20:35 rjbs [Coke]: You can get the 1981 Basic rules for $5 now at dndclassics.com! :)
20:35 benabik rjbs: Ah.  I went 3->3.5->Pathfinder, not to 4.  :-/
20:35 * [Coke] wishes he had not sold his old school books for cash.
20:35 cognominal joined #perl6
20:37 tadzik did you learn d&d in school?
20:37 japhb_ Pathfinder is the first d20 game I've played since the original AD&D (and old skool D&D before that).
20:37 japhb_ I played a lot of GURPS in college
20:38 [Coke] AD&D, paranoia, call of c'thulhu. even larped once.
20:39 * moritz loved paranoia
20:39 colomon AD&D 1 -> GURPS -> Amber Diceless
20:40 tadzik http://play-perl.org/about looks cool
20:43 rjbs /win/win 77
20:43 rjbs Oops.
20:44 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
20:44 japhb_ .oO( It's a /win/win! )
20:46 moritz arnsholt: fwiw I can't compile rakudo on newest nqp either
20:46 moritz also while compiling the restricted setting
20:46 moritz though compiling lib/Test.pir produces the same error
20:47 * benabik gets segfault Parrot/NQP HEAD on 'nqp src/stage2/gen/NQPP5QRegex.pm'
20:47 arnsholt Right, so it's probably not something particular to my setup then
20:47 arnsholt We should probably ping jnthn about it when he's around
20:54 FROGGS fwiw: nqp 2013.01-95-ga0bba92 with rakudo Sonoma-109-g4fb07b1 is fine
20:55 jnthn good evening o/
20:56 FROGGS hi jnthn
20:56 masak jnthn! \o/
20:56 tadzik jnthn!
20:56 jnthn Yes, I noticed the Rakudo not building on latest NQP last night. At first I thought it was the allocation mis-calcs, but I patched that and...no pony.
20:56 tadzik did you know you can sign up for PLPW already? :)
20:58 jnthn tadzik: omg omg no I didn't!
20:58 uvtc hehehe
20:58 jnthn tadzik: url? :)
20:58 tadzik http://act.yapc.eu/plpw2013/
20:58 tadzik last minute, before we run out of seats :P
20:58 uvtc jnthn: be the first one. It'll put you in the ... what's the term... the "first position" in the workshop.
20:59 uvtc In the ...
20:59 tadzik POLE POSITION! \o/
20:59 uvtc Pole Position
20:59 uvtc !
20:59 uvtc Oh man.
20:59 tadzik uvtc: looks like I got to Pole Position first ;P
20:59 uvtc hahaha
20:59 masak why is it that every time au++ helps someone on the channel, she does it in such an awesome way? how can the rest of us be awesome like au?
21:01 TimToady some of us are called to be LTA to make the awesome people stand out more :)
21:01 cognominal joined #perl6
21:01 jnthn tadzik: I signed up :)
21:02 tadzik awesome! \o/
21:02 jnthn Moja prezentacja bude po angielsku, though :P
21:02 PerlJam masak: strength through diversity!  :)
21:03 tadzik będzie :) That's cool :)
21:03 masak moritz: if we were to set as a goal to play Paranoia when we next meet, would that goal be realizable? :)
21:03 jnthn tadzik: heh, I guess Polish entirely from a poor recollection of Slovak :)
21:04 tadzik they're close enough :)
21:04 masak Moja prezentacja tiez bude po angielsku...
21:04 tadzik masak: oh yes, rpg!
21:05 masak jnthn: where does the adverb go?
21:05 jnthn masak: There seems OK to me... :)
21:05 jnthn masak: Though I'm pretty sure it coulda gone on the end too.
21:06 masak so typical of a cased language. they don't really care :P
21:07 arnsholt jnthn: From the error message I get compiling, it looks like Rakudo tries to serialize an object NQP doesn't like?
21:07 masak Latin is worse, though. they flaunt their nonchalance of word order.
21:07 jnthn Well, just means you get to use word order for nuance. :)
21:07 jnthn I never got to the level of being able to do that terribly well in Slovak. Maybe I will with $slavic_language.next :)
21:07 fgomez joined #perl6
21:08 jnthn arnsholt: Yes, but the object it's getting passed is...bizzare.
21:08 jeffreykegler left #perl6
21:08 arnsholt Oh, dang
21:08 masak jnthn: don't tell me... Bulgarian!? say it ain't so! :P
21:08 jnthn masak: :P
21:09 tadzik Bulgarian is cool :)
21:09 jnthn No, but I'd like to make an effort to learn one of the languages from that sub-family.
21:10 masak tadzik: it is, actually.
21:10 timotimo it is basically advanced Russian, no?
21:11 jnthn Russian often feels like pretty advanced Russian to me :P
21:11 timotimo would evolved be a better term?
21:11 masak timotimo: not really.
21:12 geekosaur "like Russian, only more so"
21:12 timotimo i talked to a Bulgarian and she told me Russian sounds like archaic Bulgarian to their ears
21:12 [Coke] ooh, let's learn bulgarian! I already have a starter book and some cd's. "ciao!"
21:13 swarley joined #perl6
21:13 swarley I cannot seem to answer this physics problem
21:14 cognominal__ joined #perl6
21:14 [Coke] does it involve pushing on a rope
21:14 [Coke] ?
21:14 masak :P
21:14 swarley No :( electrostatics
21:14 masak swarley: I always get static shocks from a metal staircase in a $work building... ;)
21:15 masak that's also a physics problem, I think.
21:15 jnthn hah, I was thinking exactly the same :)
21:15 masak jnthn: that's because you get them too! :P
21:15 jnthn I think that's a problem of them using a HUGE piece of iron, then people rubbing their huge winter coats against it :)
21:16 jnthn The glass stairs probably also don't help... :)
21:16 swarley Two point charges, q1 and q2 are placed 0.30m apart on the x-axis, as show in the figure above. Charge q1 has a value of -3e-9 C. The net electric field at point P is zero. Calculate the magnitude and charge of q2.
21:16 masak swarley: where's point P?
21:16 swarley 0.1m left of point q1
21:16 masak yes, then it's solvable.
21:17 [Coke] hey, don't we have a community rule about not doing people's homework? ;)
21:17 masak I didn't give him the solution! :P
21:17 tadzik physics? Do help him :)
21:17 TimToady since it's really just electromagnetism...
21:17 tadzik I remember my struggle with physics
21:17 jnthn -3e-9 C...that's some really cold weather.
21:17 swarley I thought I got the value for q2, but in theory if I got it right then if I calculate it the electric field should be zero
21:17 moritz masak: re paranoia: possible
21:17 swarley but it's 0.000005
21:17 masak jnthn: with wind chill, it's 20 degrees below absolute zero!
21:17 uvtc swarley: figure out the field at P due to q1.
21:18 masak yeah, uvtc has it. field.total = field.q1 + field.q2
21:19 swarley uvtc; I started with Eq1 = Eq2 then culoumbs law, k(-3e-9)/(0.1)^2 = k(q2)/(0.4)^2
21:19 swarley k cancels, simplify etc
21:19 swarley I came down to 4.8e-8 nC
21:19 swarley err
21:19 swarley -nC
21:20 swarley But if I try to prove that with the electric field equaling zero it doesn't turn out as expected
21:20 uvtc Eq1 = -Eq2
21:21 swarley Electric field of q1 must be equal and opposite of q2 at point P
21:21 swarley since they cancel
21:22 swarley Jesus, you don't need to take a standard physics class before AP physics they said, he's only a little bit of a hard teacher they said
21:22 uvtc hahaha
21:22 swarley Seriously, his motto is "If I make it harder than the exam, you won't have any problems"
21:22 masak I like him already.
21:23 moritz swarley: just remember that the electric field decreases quadratically with distance
21:23 swarley I know, because of radius squared
21:23 swarley Inverse proportionality
21:23 swarley inverse square*
21:23 moritz so you just have to square the ratio of distances to get the ratio of charges to make them cancel out
21:23 swarley but that doesn't change that they cancel
21:23 swarley ohh
21:24 masak it feels to me that you need to plug your values into the same equation twice: the one that relates point charge, electric field, and distance.
21:24 masak I would even write up a nice solution in Perl 6, if I could think of a nice way to run the same formula both backwards and forwards :)
21:25 masak hrm, I guess I could just implement both directions...
21:25 arnsholt Maybe we need a computer algebra system O:)
21:25 swarley I have one, I really do love math, so I spoiled myself to a TI-Nspire CX CAS
21:25 swarley with a*
21:25 * moritz was good as physics as long as constant factors could be ignored :-)
21:26 swarley I'm good with physics 2 weeks after the unit has finished. It's just that our teacher assumes that we have taken calculus already
21:26 swarley And I'm a calculus student stuck in a trig students curriculum..
21:27 swarley Oh man, seeing vectors for the first time in kinematics, that was not even a learning curve
21:28 swarley That was a learning wall
21:28 jnthn Seems I can go all the way back before the multi-dispatch changes and still see problems with serializatin.
21:29 swarley I guess it was for the best though, quick way to jam a lot of math into your brain
21:29 jnthn *serialization
21:30 uvtc left #perl6
21:31 arnsholt Hmm. So quite possibly a bug somewhere in my branch code?
21:31 masak swarley: https://gist.github.com/masak/4742101
21:32 masak swarley: didn't need much math at all ;)
21:32 masak r: say -3e-9 * -sqrt(2)
21:32 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«4.24264068711929e-09␤»
21:35 masak swarley: (was this review helpful to you? yes/no)
21:36 spider-mario joined #perl6
21:40 donaldh joined #perl6
21:40 swarley oh, sorry. I was finishing another one
21:40 swarley Let me take a look
21:41 jnthn arnsholt: I have got a case in a commit right after we merged it when Rakudo does work, but if I --target=pir on t/nqp/55-multimethod.t it explodes with exactly the same kind of error.
21:41 swarley and 1/(4 pi e0) is 9e9
21:42 swarley r: say 9e9
21:42 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«9000000000␤»
21:43 masak swarley: you don't need to know what 1/(4 pi e0) is.
21:43 swarley r: say 9e9 *  ((-3e-9)/(0.1**2))
21:43 p6eval rakudo 4fb07b: OUTPUT«-2700␤»
21:43 masak all you're interested in is q2.
21:43 masak * moritz was good as physics as long as constant factors could be ignored :-)
21:43 swarley oh, i see what you're saying now
21:43 arnsholt jnthn: Right. I'll provisionally blame myself, in that case
21:43 masak in this case, the constant factors could be ignored. :)
21:44 jnthn arnsholt: Well, doing a built of before any of the merging for now
21:44 jnthn That should help answer it
21:45 arnsholt Yeah, definitely
21:45 masak swarley: basically all I'm using in the end is "it's an inverse square law -- if it's twice the distance, the charge needs to go up by a factor of sqrt(2)"
21:45 swarley Yeah, I understand it now. I just was caught up in a slur of variables
21:45 jnthn arnsholt: Hm, seems not...
21:45 masak the trick to solving these problems is to abstract away the unnecessary parts :)
21:46 swarley I swear I'm not bad at physics, I got one of the headers
21:46 swarley errr
21:46 swarley Harder ones
21:46 swarley Sorry, someone asked me a question as I was typing
21:46 arnsholt jnthn: No error pre-merge, or error pre-merge?
21:46 jnthn arnsholt: Error pre-merge. Very odd.
21:46 masak swarley: don't spend time classifying yourself. just practice the problems until they feel easy :)
21:47 moritz swarley: http://perlpunks.de/paste/show/51157269.9f7.1a4 # there's the math, formally
21:47 swarley I got one of the variable only ones 100% correct and I was so excited lol. Those usually have the lowest average points earned
21:48 masak er, moritz is right, I'm wrong.
21:48 masak the factor is -4, not -sqrt(2). of course.
21:48 arnsholt jnthn: Weird, weird
21:48 swarley OH! so I actually had the right answer when I rewrote it :)
21:49 masak https://gist.github.com/masak/4742101 updated.
21:49 masak moritz++
21:49 arnsholt But bedtime now
21:49 swarley I just said 'screw physics' let's treat this as a proportionality
21:49 arnsholt See you guys tomorrow o/
21:49 * arnsholt &
21:49 masak arnsholt: \o
21:49 swarley o/
21:50 jnthn o/ arnsholt
21:51 masak I should have checked myself somewhere along the way. the field strength is divided by 4 every time we double the distance. d'oh :)
21:52 xenoterracide joined #perl6
21:52 cognominal joined #perl6
21:56 * moritz wonders if there's a weird but beautiful way to solve that problem with Gauss' theorem
21:56 pmurias jnthn: what do we need deletepos for?
21:57 jnthn Array.delete in Perl 6.
21:57 jnthn Though I wonder if we couldn't instead use splice or something...
21:58 pmurias it's not used in rakudo atm
21:58 pmurias jnthn: a few people were unsure if we want to keep the current Array.delete behavior
21:59 pmurias jnthn: as it's copied over deprecated perl5 behavior
22:00 masak moritz: well, it looks that way. Wikipedia says that Coloumb's law and Gauss' law are equivalent.
22:00 moritz masak: yes, just very different formulations
22:01 masak I'm looking at the math and realizing that I've forgotten too much of this to easily take it in.
22:01 pmurias jnthn: http://pasta.test-smoke.org/437 - how the current way is crazy
22:02 cognominal__ joined #perl6
22:02 pmurias and the way nqp::deletepos is implemented in nqp-parrot is not really suitable for implementing Array.delete as it moves the elements
22:07 fgomez joined #perl6
22:20 cognominal joined #perl6
22:21 dalek rakudo-js: a017f5a | (Paweł Murias)++ | run (2 files):
22:21 dalek rakudo-js: Implement nqp::sha1, pass qast_serialization.t.
22:21 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/rakudo-js/commit/a017f5aaef
22:24 jnthn pmurias: Sorry, very tied up debugging a weird problem here...
22:24 jnthn pmurias: Anyway, if .delete's current behavior is crazy, I'm most certainly not attached to it.
22:28 rurban I'm trying to design a better perl macro system. `statements` looks better than quasi{statements} or {{{statements}}}. qx should be used instead of `` for systems commands. macro declaration arguments should be possible structures ("destructuring-bind"), scalar, lists ie. () or hashes i.e. blocks. See e.g. http://perl11.org/p2/p2-extensions.html
22:28 rurban @`` for late evaluation in list-context.
22:33 flussence I wouldn't complain if shell-`` went away - I can never remember what function it maps to...
22:34 tadzik shell `` is gone
22:34 masak rurban: by the use of 'expr' and 'block' there, are you conflating rule names with parameter names?
22:34 flussence oh well, you didn't see me complain :)
22:35 pmurias rurban: it would be great to be able to specify the language for quasi quotes
22:35 rurban well, {block} could be matching a lexed block or a hash
22:35 masak rurban: what exactly can occur within the `` ?
22:35 rurban I want to be able to matcbh both, blocks or hashes (of hashes). That's where I'm currently struggling
22:36 rurban (in lisp it was much easier)
22:36 masak rurban: it doesn't say {block} on that page, it says '{'block'}'
22:36 rurban That's why I'm thinking a macro definition should have the same definition as in the parser definition. parsed at compile-time. macro while '('expr')' '{'block'}' {...}
22:37 masak rurban: I find the syntax confusing. things are not marked out as rules in any way.
22:37 rurban {block} might want to match a hash key named block
22:38 rurban confusing, yes
22:38 masak rurban: ah, well. looks like the beginning of something, but I don't see it working as-is.
22:39 masak what if you wanted a macro with two blocks in it?
22:39 masak like a loop with a continue block, for example?
22:39 pmurias wouldn't it make sense to optimize for clarity, and not for conciseness
22:39 masak pmurias: yes. the kind of clarity that makes things stand out.
22:39 rurban I'd need a public API for the lexer, so that the structural macro arguments are well defined.
22:40 masak pmurias: that's why we have {{{$ast}}} currently. it stands out.
22:42 pmichaud joined #perl6
22:43 stevan__ joined #perl6
22:43 pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6
22:43 diakopter hi :D
22:43 jnthn o/ pmichaud
22:43 pmurias hi
22:43 masak pmichaud! \o/
22:43 pmichaud o/ jnthn
22:44 PerlJam pmichaud: greetings
22:48 pmichaud interesting discussion taking place on #parrot; anyone have anything they want me to know/add?
22:50 swarley https://gist.github.com/swarley/4742592
22:50 swarley \o/
22:51 PerlJam swarley: you're making a Go backend for rakudo?
22:51 swarley nqp
22:51 swarley but yea
22:51 PerlJam swarley++ cool.
22:51 swarley I need to rethink the base object
22:52 pmichaud swarley++   awesome!
22:52 swarley I'm not really sure how perl6 objects are, my brain wants them to be like ruby objects. I looked at nqp-jvm's SixModelObject.java but that has no real information other than the STable, and I pretty much already had that.
22:57 swarley I can't wait to see regular NQP without the parrot code in it
22:57 swarley That would make it a lot easier to read without having to look back and forth between the source trees
22:58 jnthn swarley: The main thing to realize about 6model is that it does representation polymorphism.
22:58 jnthn swarley: There's not a single "how to represent an object"
22:59 jnthn There's just an STable pointer and you follow that to the REPR.
22:59 swarley Oh, I understand that.
22:59 swarley I'm not planning on restricting it, or at least if i did I didn't mean to
23:00 jnthn swarley: I didn't think you were. :) I was just trying to explain it. :)
23:00 pmurias swarley: have you seen nqp/docs/serialization_format.markdown?
23:00 swarley Oh okay, I would love to hear an explanation or read a paper on the subject from you. I'm quite certain you know exactly what you're talking about
23:00 jnthn P6opaque is perhaps the most interesting thing to look at but I'm afraid any implementation of it is quite...crazy.
23:01 jnthn In C you do it by calculating a struct on the fly.
23:01 swarley pmurias; I have, but right now I'm just trying to get a basic object system that I can make a test suite for to start
23:01 jnthn On the JVM it's done by calculating a class on the fly...
23:01 jnthn I'm not quite sure how it is in JavaScript :)
23:01 swarley I think a lot of things I'm going to just end up making interfaces for.
23:01 swarley What is the opaque exactly?
23:02 pmurias jnthn: it maps cleanly to the javascript object system
23:02 cognominal joined #perl6
23:03 pmurias which is really primitive
23:03 jnthn swarley: It's the representation the majority of objects in NQP and Perl 6 use
23:03 swarley Oh okay, so it's a higher level object representation?
23:04 LordVorp joined #perl6
23:04 jnthn pmurias: Nice :)
23:04 jnthn swarley: It's a representation that knows how to lay out object attributes.
23:05 pmurias jnthn: for each stable I just create an object which is a prototype for it's all instances
23:05 swarley Oh, okay. I'm glad you said that now. Because the lowest level object I just prototyped has an attributes array
23:05 swarley err, map
23:07 jnthn swarley: Yeah, the only thing that's common to everything is the STable and an SC.
23:08 jferrero joined #perl6
23:08 swarley Alright. I'm omiting the sc for now, just to get basic functionality
23:08 jnthn *nod*
23:08 swarley To make sure everything works conceptually
23:10 pmurias jnthn: the .symtable attributes of blocks is no longer important?
23:11 swarley See, a really cool thing about doing this with go is the ability of using goroutines
23:11 jnthn pmurias: It's still used
23:11 swarley This is from http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html
23:11 jnthn pmurias: And really it's just exposing something already there
23:11 swarley They're called goroutines because the existing terms—threads, coroutines, processes, and so on—convey inaccurate connotations. A goroutine has a simple model: it is a function executing concurrently with other goroutines in the same address space. It is lightweight, costing little more than the allocation of stack space. And the stacks start small, so they are cheap, and grow by allocating (and freeing) heap storage as required. Goroutin
23:11 swarley es are multiplexed onto multiple OS threads so if one should block, such as while waiting for I/O, others continue to run. Their design hides many of the complexities of thread creation and management.
23:11 swarley Oh my, I'm sorry
23:12 swarley I didn't mean to copy that second line
23:18 pmurias swarley: please don't paste stuff into the channel
23:19 swarley Yes, I'm sorry. I only meant to paste the first sentence. I apologize
23:19 swarley-freenode joined #perl6
23:23 xilo_ joined #perl6
23:27 * jnthn finally tracks down at least one of the strange things going on
23:27 jnthn (with the serialization stuff)
23:35 [Coke] general community note, inspired by diakopter in #parrot. - when we actually have parrot people on the line to talk to, it helps to actually talk about technology and code and bugs rather than he said/she said crap. It really doesn't help either project along.
23:35 [Coke] I know this can be very frustrating, esp. if we feel we are on the receiving end.
23:38 sorear also can we please talk about code rather than mental illnesses?
23:43 swarley Okay, I've definitely finished playing around with the spec structs I believe
23:48 swarley-freenode o-O
23:48 alec__ joined #perl6
23:50 pmichaud [Coke]: I agree; I was seriously considering invoking the "bring in the relationship managers" rule... except afaik diakopter wasn't really speaking for Rakudo
23:51 [Coke] no, nothing official, I just knew it wasn't going to end well. :(
23:52 diakopter I don't see how it didn't end well
23:53 diakopter or proceed well, for that matter
23:53 stevan_ joined #perl6
23:54 [Coke] diakopter: really? did you get an answer to your question?
23:54 [Coke] are you any closer to getting an answer to your question?
23:54 diakopter [Coke]: all my questions were rhetorical.
23:55 benabik joined #perl6
23:55 [Coke] ok. The way you approached it was unhelpful. the fact that it happened over something you didn't expect an answer to makes it even more puzzling to me.
23:56 [Coke] unhelpful - in this case not in the case that it didn't further your goal, since it seems you didn't have one there, but in that it helped to sour the relationship between the two projects.
23:56 diakopter I disagree completely
23:56 diakopter I see no relationship soured
23:56 [Coke] You keep doing that.
23:56 [Coke] I'm not sure it means what you think it means.
23:57 pmichaud diakopter: if you're speaking on behalf of rakudo, then I'm not sure you get to decide if it helped or lessened the relationship.  :-)
23:57 diakopter but .. I wasn't doing so
23:57 [Coke] diakopter: so, what was your point in the conversation then, if not to get your technical question finally answered after 2 months?
23:59 diakopter well, my involvement started yesterday when I insulted rurban on twitter, in reply to his grandiose claims about Parrot's GC/threads

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