Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-02-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:03 jnthn 'night, #perl6
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00:49 perlhelp HI!
00:49 perlhelp I'm back :)
00:50 perlhelp Who's still here?
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01:05 perlhelp Hi am0c!
01:06 gry perlhelp: what's up?
01:06 perlhelp perl!
01:06 perlhelp :)
01:06 perlhelp we were talking in freenode! :)
01:07 perlhelp may i pleaes speak with you bout perl5 ?
01:07 am0c perlhelp: Hi!
01:07 gry perlhelp: Afraid not, this channel is about perl6.
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01:15 am0c perlhelp: if it's also related to perl6, you can tell here, if not #perl channel is for you.
01:17 perlhelp i am blocked from perl
01:19 geekosaur this does not mean you can claim #perl6
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01:35 perlhelp hi jeffrey!
01:42 [Coke] perlhelp: what irc client are you using, and what channel are you trying to chat in that isn't the one you were blocked from?
01:43 perlhelp perl5
01:43 perlhelp here
01:43 perlhelp or just plain perl
01:43 [Coke] perlhelp: what irc client are you using?
01:51 perlhelp i don't know
01:53 gry he's using webchat; don't worry, we're in /msg
01:54 diakopter I was cursing at myself for not figuring it out more quickly
01:55 diakopter um, ww
02:18 [Coke] http://boingboing.net/2013/02/11/r​egular-expressions-crossword.html
02:19 perlhelp Coke: I do not know
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03:46 uvtc Ah ha! Re. my question at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-02-06#i_6420596 . The term I was looking for "the Osbourne effect". Yes, that's "the osbourne effect". Ooh, so sorry. Thank you (me!) for playing. You're leaving with some lovely parting gifts. Let's bring out the next contestant.
03:47 uvtc chromatic used it in a reply to Ovid's wrap-up "Perl 7 - Final thoughts" post.
03:50 uvtc TimToady: looks like I never replied to your suggestion at that time, but yes, getting a head-start is a fine idea. :)
03:57 uvtc s/looks/Oh, sorry, looks/  :)
04:00 TimToady :)
04:00 uvtc In case that bit of late-night (EST) humor was too off the wall, I was poking fun at myself for not remembering the term. Nothing to do with Perl 6.
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05:53 perlhelp hello?
05:53 perlhelp how do i get a list of rooms with perl
05:54 perlhelp -/msge *alias help perl ?
05:55 sorear /join #perl
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06:17 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Set_Puzzle#Perl_6
06:17 TimToady up to 510 now
06:20 TimToady with another 15 or so we can catch up to BBC BASIC, Haskell, and Perl
06:22 moritz \o
06:22 TimToady o/
06:23 sorear o/
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06:36 quester Is anyone else having problems building Rakudo today?  I'm getting an error in the nqp make, "repr_registry.c:237:9: error: implicit declaration of function ‘NFA_initialize’ [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]"
06:37 quester ... along with another error in the same line for "nested extern declaration of ‘NFA_initialize’" and several dozen warnings.
06:38 FROGGS quester: I'd say you use the wrong parrot version...
06:39 FROGGS I'm using parrot 4.10.0, my nqp HEAD is about a week old
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06:41 quester I thought it might be something like like, but I rm -rf'ed rakudo and started from scratch.  A quick rakudo/parrot/parrot --version says that it's 4.10.0-devel.
06:42 FROGGS uhh
06:43 FROGGS looks like jnthn made changes to NFA stuff: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/02​9bf5ca064f312f82fdce5b3d3bc09ca95fa80c
06:43 FROGGS 9 hours ago
06:44 quester Ah, so.
06:44 FROGGS I'm not sure what parrot you need for this
06:46 FROGGS quester: is you just want to get pack to a working rakudo you might want to checkout 2013.01 for both nqp and rakudo
06:52 domidumont joined #perl6
06:55 quester Thanks... I have a copy of Rakudo-Star 2013.01, but I was going to try to grok Set, which didn't quite make it into the January release.  Oh, well...
06:56 quester r: <a b c>.set (|) <d e f>.set
06:56 p6eval rakudo a3869a:  ( no output )
06:56 quester Err... well, it was something like that...
06:57 benabik r: say <a b c>.set (|) <d e f>.set
06:57 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«set(a, b, c, d, e, f)␤»
06:57 benabik quester: p6eval isn't like the REPL, you have to tell it to output.
06:57 quester Oh... thank you.
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07:06 TimToady r: say <a b c> (|) <d e f>
07:06 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«set(a, b, c, d, e, f)␤»
07:06 TimToady note that (|) already coerces to set
07:07 TimToady much as == coerces to numeric
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07:29 quester phenny: tell jnthn I think that the change to src/6model/repr_registry.c in commit f5d0a8bb2c8465dd38443b4a10bd4a59ac49046f may need one line added to src/6model/repr_registry.h: "REPROps * NFA_initialize  (PARROT_INTERP);"
07:29 phenny quester: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
07:31 quester And thanks to FROGGS++, benabik++, and TimToady++
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08:15 arnsholt It's alive!
08:15 arnsholt But then it died
08:18 arnsholt timotimo: I've pushed some test scripts to the repo
08:18 arnsholt It seems to work at least part of the time =)
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08:41 sorear seen in another channel, highly relevant to our needs: https://github.com/ccurtsinger/stabilizer
08:42 sorear for jnthn in particular
08:42 sorear note: I have not tried this, no clue if it works
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10:02 jnthn morning o/
10:02 phenny jnthn: 07:29Z <quester> tell jnthn I think that the change to src/6model/repr_registry.c in commit f5d0a8bb2c8465dd38443b4a10bd4a59ac49046f may need one line added to src/6model/repr_registry.h: "REPROps * NFA_initialize  (PARROT_INTERP);"
10:02 nwc10 \o
10:02 FROGGS hi jnthn, hi nwc10
10:03 nwc10 free advice you didn't ask for - (1) experimental things shouldn't be on by default
10:03 nwc10 (2) they need a lifetime - if they aren't promoted to non-experimental within $timespan, they get the chop
10:03 nwc10 if you want to last longer than Perl 5, you'll need this
10:07 dalek nqp: c41c8f4 | jnthn++ | src/6model/repr_registry.c:
10:07 dalek nqp: Missing #include; quester++.
10:07 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c41c8f46da
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10:07 moritz .oO( (??{ ... }) )
10:07 nwc10 oh no, not that
10:07 nwc10 Dave took a year, but fixed that
10:08 nwc10 well, *that* is the ultimate example
10:08 nwc10 but there are a bazillion (well, probably >30) other things marked experiemental that aren't finished
10:08 FROGGS moritz: what's that?
10:08 nwc10 and the original author goes away before they are really finished
10:08 nwc10 so I think it's needed as a social contract
10:09 nwc10 1) you can't have this on by default. (so no-one downstream inadvertently comes to rely on it)
10:09 nwc10 2) if you don't finish it, it will be for nothing. You can't rely on it
10:11 moritz FROGGS: that's a syntax for Perl 5 regex assertions that has been marked as experimental sind 5.8.8 at least
10:12 FROGGS ahh
10:12 nwc10 probably since something like 5.005
10:12 FROGGS nice
10:12 nwc10 IIRC it's likely to be from no later than 1999
10:12 jnthn sorear: Thanks for the link...yes, that looks interesting.
10:12 nwc10 there are lessons to be learned in "how not to become a hairball"
10:12 * nwc10 is also interested, but doesn't (yet) want to build a new toolchain to play
10:13 nwc10 had enough fun building clang a few months ago
10:13 nwc10 gcc/ELF/ld.so/Linux/glibc-- # no, not all the world is a VAX
10:13 sorear nwc10: was this prompted by something on p5p?
10:14 nwc10 although in this case, the problem was not gcc or ld.so or Linux or glibc permissiveness
10:14 nwc10 but bugs in gcc hiding bugs in glibc headers
10:14 nwc10 sorear: no. but only because I've not written the e-mail yet :-/
10:15 sorear let us know when it shows up on nntp.p.o
10:15 nwc10 it's prompted by someone writing the infrastructure I could see would be useful. But figuring out that it's not useful for this other related thing. *And* that hunks of it are (correctly then, not correctly now) marked as experimental. And that likely no-one is using it for what it was intended for. (Even "me")
10:15 nwc10 sorear: it won't be showing up as a rant :-)
10:18 moritz nwc10: but you can be sure that Abigail uses the feature for something it wasn't intended for, and loudly rejects its removal
10:18 nwc10 that's not fair. You need to be writing XS to use this one. *And* the feature in question, I don't want to remove
10:19 nwc10 Abgail is not one of the real problems.
10:19 moritz ok, I should shut up, I think
10:19 nwc10 well, I'm not going to bitch about the *who* on a logged channel
10:19 nwc10 and in this case, there is no *who* to bitch about. The author of the feature was doing exactly what was wanted.
10:20 nwc10 it's a nuclear reactor problem
10:20 nwc10 anti-bikesheds go in (in this case, a well written one)
10:20 nwc10 but if the anti-bikeshed is incomplete, underdocumented, or simply to obscure for most people to use, it's just part of the 1%
10:21 nwc10 in the context of (roughly), you can agree which 90% of Perl 5 is sane
10:21 nwc10 but a lot of things you end up depending on on CPAN use 90%+1
10:21 nwc10 and none agree on the +1%
10:21 nwc10 credit davem for that.
10:22 nwc10 Stevan already found this when thinking about Moe
10:22 nwc10 prototypes - hate 'em? want to kill 'em?
10:22 nwc10 oops, there goes Test::More and Test::Simple
10:23 huf indirect notation - oops, print dun work
10:24 nwc10 thanks, yes, that's another good example
10:24 nwc10 typeglobs - oh dear, there goes Exporter and every variant
10:24 huf i dont mind protos, i just wish we could keep newbies off of them :)
10:25 nwc10 most everything ugly is serving a purpose. Sure, they are abused
10:25 huf but indirect notation is awful
10:25 nwc10 but if you want to kill them, you need to figure out what alternative syntax you need to provide to implement the legitimate uses (legitimate, because there is no other way to do it)
10:26 nwc10 and, down this road leads madness
10:26 nwc10 and, out the other side of madness you find Perl 6.
10:26 nwc10 whether you like it or not :-)
10:27 huf i still think there's room for throwing old crap out of p5
10:27 moritz but really only small-scale stuff
10:27 moritz you can deprecated 'reset STRING'
10:27 huf or at least making them non-default if a high enough version is declared. but keeping so many things in core is expensive tuit-wise
10:28 moritz but what do you gain?
10:28 nwc10 removing them actually costs more
10:28 huf true.
10:28 masak good forenoon, #perl6
10:29 huf moritz: not much point to that, reset() bothers people a _lot_ less than indirect notation
10:29 huf or even protos
10:29 nwc10 (My understanding is that) Stevan is trying to figure this stuff out with Moe
10:29 huf and if it wasnt so morning, i'd probably be able to think up a few more awful features :)
10:29 moritz huf: indirect notation and protos bothers people BECAUSE PEOPLE USE THEM
10:30 moritz huf: and you can't remove features from Perl 5 that are widely used
10:30 huf moritz: no. indirect notation causes code that should not compile to silently do the wrong thing
10:30 moritz sorry for shouting :-)
10:30 huf and that's pretty damn painful :)
10:30 huf moritz: but yeah
10:30 moritz yes, I know
10:30 moritz still, far too much use of it in the wild
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10:31 huf use v5.LOTS; _could_ do no indirect qw/FATAL/; behind the scenes... dont know if that'd help..
10:36 arnsholt sorear: Ooooh, that's awfully clever (stabilizer)
10:37 daxim joined #perl6
10:37 arnsholt Especially the point about normally distributed run-times. While interning at Opera someone explained the horrors of performance testing (and distributions without a mean) to me
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10:42 masak I guess the question is, would you still use a Perl 5 without indirect notation? I would.
10:42 huf i'd be happier to use it ;)
10:43 jnthn masak: Even if you couldn't use any modules that (directly or indirectly) depend on it? :)
10:43 nwc10 jnthn++ # faster than I am
10:43 nwc10 (At typing)
10:43 huf http://codepad.org/mkXYsmeQ
10:43 huf ^ :(
10:44 masak jnthn: um oh. :(
10:44 masak jnthn: yes, that makes it worse.
10:44 huf isnt the fix mostly syntactical and quick?
10:44 huf it's still a _lot_ of work, but...
10:45 huf but yeah, once the cat's out of the bag, it's like herding cats.
10:45 nwc10 it's still a _lot_ of work, and as soon as you want to install code from CPAN, that's code that you don't own
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10:49 masak perlhelp: welcome back.
10:51 perlhelp thnk you
10:51 perlhelp i'm so stressed out
10:51 daxim use perl5i; # includes "no indirect", so that won't work anymore
10:52 moritz the German phone area codes can be compiled to a regex with 8895 characters :-)
10:56 daxim my boilerplate to make perl5 taste half-way like 6:  http://paste.scsys.co.uk/228303
10:56 masak moritz: there must be a name for the psychological quirk that makes people look at big regexes with half-fear, half-admiration :)
10:56 daxim includes also MXMS (yay signatures)
10:57 masak ;)
10:57 moritz masak: awe-shock?
10:58 moritz (for the record, it's automatically created with Regexp::List)
10:58 daxim there are at least 4 modules similar to that on cpan
10:59 daxim notably list2re in http://p3rl.org/Data::Munge
10:59 masak moritz: I'm fine with the awe-shock, until people draw the conclusion "AND HENCE REGEXES ARE EEEVIL". yeah, well, if statements are evil too, if you chain a thousand and five of them on top of each other.
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11:00 ashish jnan
11:01 masak "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful." -- Mae West, unsourced
11:01 masak this rule doesn't hold for programming features. :)
11:01 ashish rite
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11:09 moritz daxim: it seems that Data::Munge::list2re doesn't do any kind of optimization
11:10 daxim luckily, perl 5.10 already does
11:10 moritz it produces simple | alternations, which amount to 27k chars instead of 9k
11:10 moritz daxim: yes, but it matters when I store the stuff
11:10 daxim aha
11:11 moritz and I don't need a module for join '|', @list
11:11 daxim the other module is http://p3rl.org/Regexp::Assemble::Compressed
11:12 daxim anyone spare a tuit for neilb to review and compare?
11:12 moritz who or what is neilb?
11:13 daxim g neilb review
11:14 moritz Regexp::Assemble::Compressed also simplifies ranges in charclasses
11:15 moritz [134567] -> [13-7]
11:15 moritz 6.1k characters
11:15 moritz so the best so far :-)
11:17 masak it's a nice problem, regex compression.
11:18 masak maybe can be used in a future p6cc... :)
11:20 masak nwc10: I like the idea of giving experimental features sunset dates.
11:21 masak TimToady: would http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Set_Puzzle#Perl_6 be clearer with the bitmasks specified in hex, you think?
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12:18 bbkr what is the replacement for system() command from P5?
12:22 jnthn run, iirc
12:22 moritz run/shell
12:33 bbkr thanks
13:06 arnsholt jnthn: I'm halfway tempted to kill of the CArray class entirely and replace it with Buf
13:06 FROGGS arnsholt: fwiw, sounds good to me
13:10 masak +1
13:10 masak arnsholt++ # working on zavolaj
13:17 arnsholt Not so much working as philosophising at the present stage, but thanks for the karma anyways =)
13:17 arnsholt The ZMQ work has highlighted that string/blob handling is something of a pain point as well
13:18 arnsholt For example sending a message "æa" in the current incarnation of the bindings will give you "æ" at the other end
13:18 FROGGS why that?
13:19 FROGGS \0 ?
13:19 arnsholt Not quite
13:19 felher What is ZMQ?
13:19 arnsholt The C API can handle arbitrary byte sequences in a message (as any good library should)
13:19 arnsholt So the function signature is essentially send(char *bytes, size_t length)
13:20 arnsholt The Zavoalj wrapping I have ATM is invoked as send($message, $message.chars)
13:20 arnsholt But chars and bytes aren't the same =)
13:20 arnsholt felher: Message queue library thing
13:20 FROGGS r: say "æa".encode.bytes
13:20 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«3␤»
13:21 felher arnsholt: ah, okay, thanks :)
13:21 arnsholt timotimo++ wants to use it to make a Perl 6 backend for ipython, and I want to use Mongrel 2
13:21 arnsholt FROGGS: Yeah, that's what I have to do. But Str.encode returns a Buf, which Zavolaj doesn't know how to marshal
13:22 jnthn arnsholt: We need something with the CArray REPR, though? Also, to know what type of thing is in it...
13:22 FROGGS well, what about send( $str, str.encode.bytes ) ?
13:23 FROGGS r: say "æa".encode.decode('binary').chars
13:23 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«3␤»
13:23 FROGGS :o)
13:23 FROGGS binary strings
13:23 FROGGS I did that for IO::Socket::INET
13:28 arnsholt jnthn: Buf can be CArray REPRd I think. From what I saw in one of the S-es last night should provide storage of native types in a contiguous chunk of memory, so I think Buf can just use the REPR instead
13:29 arnsholt The guarantees for Buf[NotNative]
13:29 arnsholt are a lot more lax
13:29 arnsholt (premature CR)
13:31 arnsholt Of course, we still need a solution for arrays of CStruct/CPointer/CArray, and it might not be the best idea to use Buf directly (now that I think about it)
13:31 arnsholt Heh. Always funny how actually talking about your ideas shakes lots more stuff out
13:32 jnthn Yeah, I think it may be challenging to do.
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13:33 jnthn Passing a Buf off to C-land seems sane.
13:33 arnsholt Yeah, that's where the idea originally came from
13:33 jnthn As in, supporting doing so.
13:34 arnsholt It'll probably be stored in the correct format anyways
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13:40 FROGGS IMO you need a way to unpack a retrieved Buf (from C land) to a perl class/struct
13:40 * [Coke] waves blearily over his coffee.
13:41 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
13:41 jnthn FROGGS: You just write the struct in Perl in the first place :)
13:41 * FROGGS .oO( my MyStruct $obj = $buf.unpack("UUUSSV*") )
13:41 FROGGS jnthn: of course
13:41 jnthn o/ pmichaud
13:41 arnsholt What jnthn said, but there's also https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/issues/13
13:41 FROGGS hi pmichaud
13:42 jnthn arnsholt: Yes, something like that would be very useful.
13:42 arnsholt I suspect there may be cases where pointer casting is required, but actually implementing it is pretty far down on my list of things to do
13:42 jnthn *nod*
13:43 * [Coke] ticks off a record number of pmichaud good mornings in a row! ;)
13:43 arnsholt Although it should be relatively simple to implement should it become pressing. Most of the machinery is already in place
13:43 FROGGS right, just not accessible from a user point of view
13:43 pmichaud jnthn: (cursor_start)   I think my plan last summer was going to be to use the $!shared object to pass the multiple values back and forth, instead of packing/unpacking an array
13:44 arnsholt Yeah, there are functions in NQP that take a pointer and a type and create a 6model object of the appropriate type from the pointer
13:44 jnthn pmichaud: Hmm.
13:44 arnsholt It's mostly a) deciding on the Perl 6 API for it, and b) implementing the nqp::op to drive it
13:45 pmichaud certainly $!shared already has $!target
13:45 jnthn pmichaud: cursor class has a different lifetime to $!shared, mind...
13:45 jnthn Yes, that is true
13:45 jnthn otoh, so does $!cursor ;)
13:46 jnthn It did occur to me that we could always just pull target and pos straight out of the Cursor itself.
13:46 pmichaud much of the multi-return aspect was simply because passing values was (supposedly) faster than attribute lookup in long-ago versions of parrot
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13:46 jnthn Array lookup is still a (little) faster
13:46 pmichaud well, Cursor shouldn't have/need $!target at all, it can get it from $!shared
13:46 jnthn Oh, wait, yes, it is all in $!shared...
13:46 jnthn er, $!target is I mean.
13:47 pmichaud anyway, that was my plan from last summer, which I never got around to executing.
13:47 jnthn *nod*
13:47 jnthn tmtowtdi, which various trade-offs :)
13:47 pmichaud it doesn't need to change now, either; just that I was thinking that one could simply return the cursor and then grab the needed values from the cursor/shared attrs
13:47 jnthn Yeah, it's the cursor class that is a bit trickier.
13:48 pmichaud I was going to have a slot in shared for that
13:48 jnthn Could work
13:48 pmichaud not clean, but it'd work
13:48 jnthn I guess it only needs updating on language switches...
13:49 pmichaud well, or it could be set in !cursor_start and then unpacked by the caller
13:49 jnthn Yeah, that's the safe wya ;)
13:49 pmichaud i.e., it's only good immediately following a cursor_start call
13:49 jnthn *way
13:49 pmichaud anyway, if array create/unpack is faster, we can go with that too.
13:49 jnthn Well, the array I have now has that constraint too
13:49 pmichaud that's clean also
13:49 jnthn It doesn't allocate it each time, it just packs one it keeps around.
13:49 pmichaud oh, so it's about the same then :-)
13:50 jnthn Yeah, apart from $!pos ends up getting boxed...
13:50 jnthn So maybe I should pull that out of there.
13:50 pmichaud oh, definitely
13:50 pmichaud grab that from the cursor attr
13:50 jnthn I did a "does this slow things down" test and it kinda didn't.
13:50 jnthn But I think I may tweak that before I go porting :)
13:51 pmichaud well, even the multi-return was effectively creating an aggregate PMC these days to hold the return values (which didn't used to be the case when I first came up with the approach :-)
13:51 jnthn True
13:51 jnthn Porting ouch: I discovered EXPR is still in PIR.
13:51 jnthn I guess I kinda knew...just didn't think about it until recently :)
13:51 nwc10 EXPR?
13:52 jnthn nwc10: OPP
13:52 jnthn Uh, that was terse :)
13:52 jnthn The operator precedence parser
13:52 jnthn I guess it's only so much PIR, and we have native lexicals in NQP now too.
13:52 jnthn So it's not so bad to switch over.
13:53 nwc10 put it as a quest on play-perl.org and see who bites? :-)
13:54 arnsholt I came across another chunk of Q:PIR the other day, I didn't quite get around to fixing it (and was a bit reluctant to, since it's likely not very well covered by tests)
13:54 masak actually, it sounds like a fun task.
13:54 masak are there tests explicitly for EXPR somewhere?
13:55 arnsholt Well, there's NQP and there's Rakudo O:)
13:55 jnthn masak: No, but if you break it you'll know very quickly ;)
13:55 pmichaud note that EXPR in pir is derived from EXPR in STD.pm :-)
13:55 pmichaud er, STD.pm6
13:56 jnthn Yes, that makes me think it shouldn't be too bad to port :)
13:56 jnthn Anyway, I won't hit that for a week or so, I doubt.
13:57 jnthn Next up is to get NFA and Cursor to cross-compile and then do QAST::Regex code-gen...
13:58 nwc10 well volonteered masak? :-)
13:58 jnthn :D
13:59 nwc10 and then a pony? [inna lasagne? :-)]
14:02 jnthn .oO( Low in fat, high in Shergar )
14:02 * nwc10 groans
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14:03 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
14:05 masak :P
14:05 masak nwc10: yes, I just might give it a try.
14:07 arnsholt I was just looking at the code as well =)
14:08 arnsholt There are three big chunks of PIR (O, EXPR, EXPR_reduce), and four small ones (starter, stopper, MARKER, MARKED)
14:08 masak hm, what do the last two do?
14:09 masak I can imagine uses for the other five.
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14:09 arnsholt I've seen it sprinkled around the Rakudo grammar, though
14:10 moritz masak: an optimization for caching <.ws> matches
14:10 moritz iirc
14:10 arnsholt I think it's used to do things like requiring ; or newline after a block for example
14:10 arnsholt Oh, and in ws, yeah
14:10 jnthn Yeah, basically you mark the position where a certian properly was true.
14:11 jnthn MARKER marks it, MARKED checks if the current position is marked in the expected way
14:12 masak ah.
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14:17 pmichaud it serves a role similar to @*MEMOS in STD.pm6
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14:25 uvtc TimToady: in the latest Rosetta Code example, thanks for specifying the Rakudo version via the datestring. :)
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14:34 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
14:35 uvtc Anyone know the status or location of the pygments highlighter that hoelzro created?
14:35 hoelzro I do!
14:35 hoelzro I haven't found time to work on it lately =)
14:35 uvtc Ah.
14:35 hoelzro it's located here: https://bitbucket.org/hoelzro/pygments-main
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14:36 hoelzro I wouldn't mind having some help with the project either ;)
14:36 FROGGS who is github/kboga?
14:36 uvtc hoelzro: What is this "bitbucket" of which you speak?
14:37 uvtc hoelzro: how far along did you get with it?
14:37 FROGGS its like github AFAIK
14:37 hoelzro pretty far
14:37 hoelzro I put it on BB because pygments is on BB
14:37 uvtc Sorry. I need to learn more emoticons for subtle jesting.
14:37 hoelzro uvtc: it should work for almost all Perl 6 code
14:38 hoelzro uvtc: this e-mail details what it doesn't do yet: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/per​l.perl6.users/2013/01/msg1655.html
14:39 hoelzro everything else *should* work; if not, please let me know
14:39 [Coke] another reminder to Perl 6 people - no Perl grant requests -at all- were received for this quarter. If anyone has a project that a little bit of grant funding would help them help the community, please submit a grant request to the grants committee. (Doesn't have to be through the Hague process)
14:39 hoelzro I've found time to add fixes for small things, but I haven't sat down to work on one of these issues
14:40 uvtc hoelzro: I generally use Pandoc for any doc processing, and it does its syntax highlighting via Kate syntax highlighting files. I don't think it can use pygments. I was sorta curious to see how different the pygments files are from the XML ones Kate uses.
14:40 hoelzro pygments files are just Python code
14:41 FROGGS [Coke]: I'd need funding _and_ time... So I'll have just a bit in my spare time like I already do
14:41 hoelzro if you'd like to take the Python I've written for pygments and convert it for Kate, that would be cool
14:41 masak someone apply for a grant to implement LWP::UserAgent in Perl 6 :)
14:41 hoelzro but I had to pull out all the stops to parse Perl 6 correctly
14:41 FROGGS arnsholt/jnthn: seen that comment to the pull request? https://github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/45
14:42 uvtc hoelzro: hehe
14:43 jnthn FROGGS: Ohh!!
14:43 jnthn Thanks you :)
14:43 arnsholt Neat indeed!
14:43 * jnthn will look thorugh that later :)
14:43 [Coke] masak: Yes, things like that, please.
14:44 [Coke] also, play-perl.org looks neatish.
14:44 FROGGS masak: and someone needs to do SOAP, ya, SOAP is awful, but some ppl need it :(
14:44 pmichaud FROGGS++
14:44 pmichaud maybe also add some native typing to some of those lexicals, though.
14:44 pmichaud ($opassoc and $key, for example)
14:44 arnsholt SOAP blocks on XML though, doesn't it?
14:45 nwc10 sticking it on play-perl.org doesn't have to wait 3 months for the next grant cycle
14:45 FROGGS arnsholt: right
14:45 nwc10 (I should figure out login on rants.perl.org, and add that to Alberto's post)
14:46 FROGGS pmichaud: you are talking to me? dont know what you mean by $opassoc...
14:46 arnsholt Mostly to jnthn I think
14:46 FROGGS k
14:46 FROGGS puhhh
14:46 FROGGS :o)
14:46 pmichaud two whoever is working on nqp #45
14:46 pmichaud *to
14:46 pmichaud +        my $opassoc := ~%opO<assoc>;
14:47 pmichaud needs to be    my str $opassoc
14:47 jnthn pmichaud: The PR was submitted about 8 months ago, so I think this wasn't an option back then. But yes, it should be done that way now. :)
14:47 pmichaud jnthn: right
14:48 pmichaud but EXPR is the core of all code parsing, so it really needs to be fast :)
14:48 jnthn Indeed.
14:48 pmichaud as in, it might even be worth writing things like
14:49 pmichaud my %opO := %opOPER<O>
14:49 pmichaud to instead be
14:49 pmichaud my %opO := nqp::atkey(%opOPER, 'O')
14:49 pmichaud depending on how the translation actually takes place.
14:50 pmichaud (and to avoid any non-existence checks)
14:50 pmichaud mainly, EXPR is just about the hottest path in the parser there is.  :-)
14:51 masak where's the "we need this" list? I should add LWP::UserAgent if it's not already there.
14:51 nwc10 make it work, then make it work fast?
14:51 FROGGS pmichaud: I added that to the pull request
14:52 FROGGS masak: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-most-wanted
14:52 pmichaud nwc10: sure, make it work comes first, definitely.  but also just be aware that if it's not fast enough, it's hard to switch over without adversely impacting Rakudo.
14:53 nwc10 agree
14:53 nwc10 but there might be a factor of 8 headroom
14:53 nwc10 good news: levenstein on JVM was again about 8 times faster
14:53 nwc10 bad news: I do not know why, but Perl 5 was 100 times faster than JVM
14:54 jnthn nwc10: Well, but we're changing it in the (common, shared) NQP so it would impact Parrot too
14:54 pmichaud well, if parsing slows down by more than about 20%, that'll be a pain point
14:54 nwc10 jnthn: good point
14:54 uvtc masak: didn't someone recently make a "Perl 6 most wanted" github project...? Where was that...
14:54 colomon uvtc: github location is about ten lines back
14:55 moritz 15:52 < FROGGS> masak: https://github.com/japhb/perl6-most-wanted
14:55 uvtc {sigh} thanks. :)
14:55 jnthn nwc10: Interesting datapoint.
14:55 colomon should "format" be added to text processing?
14:56 jnthn nwc10: Any futher analysis on that would be very helpful (like, where is the pain point).
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14:59 [Coke] TimToady: http://play-perl.org/quest​/5119f9743a5ec3040700002c - you might be interested in that quest.
14:59 nwc10 jnthn: I didn't have any good idea how to profile NQP (on either platform)
15:01 jnthn nwc10: OK. Maybe pastebin me the code you ran (so we're looking at the same thing) and maybe I'll have a play :)
15:01 pmichaud (profiling)  seems like we ought to be able to do something about that.
15:05 masak FROGGS, uvtc: thank you.
15:06 masak says "LWP or modern equivalent".
15:06 masak does that cover LWP::UserAgent
15:06 * masak <== fairly unknowledgeable about these matters
15:06 nwc10 http://pasta.test-smoke.org/439 # NQP, 177.77699995040894
15:06 moritz masak: yes
15:07 moritz Mojo::UserAgent might be worth stealing from
15:07 nwc10 http://pasta.test-smoke.org/440 # Perl 5, 1.98732399940491
15:07 nwc10 that's NQP-JVM
15:08 nwc10 you can probably brew tea and drink it in the time that Parrot takes
15:08 masak well, the one who implements LWP::UserAgent will have to decide to what extent to make a faithful impl, or to improve it in the process.
15:09 pmichaud I wonder if it's the return handling causing the slowdown
15:09 pmichaud (wild guess)
15:09 jnthn pmichaud: Mebbe, but I already optimized that some
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15:10 pmichaud easy check:  try running nwc10++'s fibonacci benchmark with a 'return' included.
15:10 pmichaud i.e., change
15:10 pmichaud $n < 2 ?? $n !! fib($n-1) + fib($n - 2);
15:10 nwc10 it's not *my* benchmark. It's the benchmark from either Rakudo or Parrot
15:11 pmichaud to have a 'return' in front of it, and see if it's slower.  (The 'return' might be optimized out, but if not, we'd see a slowdown.)
15:11 pmichaud nwc10: okay, I should say   "run a modified fibonacci benchmark on nwc10++'s machine"  :)
15:11 nwc10 "my" machine?
15:12 nwc10 it's the hot backup perl 5 dev server :-)
15:12 pmichaud whatever machine you used to do the original run
15:12 pmichaud I'd do it, but I don't have nqp-jvm on my system yet.  (I plan to fix that this week, but won't have time this morning, sadly)
15:12 nwc10 why shouldn't I subvert things?
15:13 jnthn Hm, it is a slowdown.
15:13 pmichaud how much of one?
15:13 jnthn moment, need to get sane results
15:14 jnthn (my rough guess includes cross-comp time)
15:14 pmichaud I know that return handling in parrot is expensive.  I don't know what it's like in jvm yet.
15:14 nwc10 [nicholas@dromedary nqp-jvm-prep]$ nqp nqp-jvm-cc.nqp ~/Perl/rakudo/nqp/examples/fib.nqp
15:14 nwc10 fib(29) = 514229
15:14 nwc10 time    = 0.3899998664855957
15:14 nwc10 [nicholas@dromedary nqp-jvm-prep]$ nqp nqp-jvm-cc.nqp ~/test/fib-return.nqpfib(29) = 514229
15:14 nwc10 time    = 0.8299999237060547
15:14 nwc10 so, factor of 2 slowdown by adding a return
15:15 pmichaud okay, so that explains a tiny bit of slowdown but not a huge amount
15:15 nwc10 factor of 50 left :-(
15:15 jnthn 0.368 vs 1.95 in a "do 10 million calls" benchmark.
15:15 jnthn (e.g. while loop calling foo())
15:15 nwc10 factor of 20 left
15:16 jnthn Where foo is sub foo() { 1 } in the first case and sub foo() { return 1 } in the second.
15:16 nwc10 and here I was thinking that it was Perl 5 that was reckoned to have the lousy call overhead :-)
15:16 nwc10 so I should call in Perl 6, and return in Perl 5?
15:17 pmichaud sounds waterbed-y  :-)
15:17 geekosaur it took years for perl5 to lose the overhead of saying "return x" instead of just "x" :)
15:17 jnthn Well, this is kinda the cost of exceptions for stack unwinds, it seems.
15:18 geekosaur actually that's a lie; it took perl*3* years...
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15:28 pmichaud I'm afk for likely the rest of the day; hopefully bbt
15:30 jnthn o/ pm
15:33 mls return handling in parrot is not really expensive
15:34 mls return handling in nqp/rakudo is expensive because you don't use the return continuation that already exists
15:35 mls I patched that a long time ago but you (pmichaud) didn't accept the patch...
15:35 masak pmichaud sometimes doesn't accept patches.
15:36 masak usually there's a very good reason having to do with the Rakudo architecture.
15:36 mls But then he shouldn't complain that return is slow ;)
15:37 masak speed is important, but not painting yourself into a corner design-wise is important, too.
15:37 masak if indeed that was the reason this time.
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15:47 TimToady uvtc: Um...I've been using date versioning on RC for the last several hundred examples or so...  :)
15:47 TimToady and fixing other people's code to use dates too
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15:53 uvtc TimToady: And I thought it'd been long enough that you should finally get some recognition! :) (Heh. I should probably do more digging before commenting.)
15:56 TimToady :)
15:59 TimToady masak: yes, though octal would be even better than hex
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16:02 perlhelp hi!
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16:07 masak perlhelp: hi, welcome back :)
16:07 perlhelp how are yo?
16:09 masak within one standard deviation of my own peculiar little average. :)
16:10 * masak .oO( yessss )
16:13 moritz masak++ :-)
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16:22 FROGGS jnthn / moritz: if you have time, can you look at https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/666966d963bb26011115 ?
16:23 FROGGS jnthn / moritz: I'm trying to make this work: say "foobar" ~~ /@(<f ba o>)/ # "fooba"
16:24 FROGGS err: say "foobar" ~~ /@(<f ba o>)+/
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16:48 moritz FROGGS: I'm out of my league there, and distracted. So I fear I won't be of much help right now
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17:04 FROGGS moritz: no problem
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17:52 PerlJam FROGGS: should that work?
17:55 nwc10 (lack of) reuse of return continuations doesn't explain time differences on NQP-JVM, does it?
17:58 FROGGS PerlJam: well, It doesnt right now, but I hope it will in near future
17:59 atrodo if I run "make spectest" what should I expect?
17:59 atrodo should I expect all test successful?
17:59 moritz atrodo: yes
17:59 FROGGS nqp: my @a := <f o b>; say("foobar" ~~ /@a/); # like that
17:59 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«f␤»
17:59 FROGGS nqp: my @a := <f o b>; say("foobar" ~~ /@a+/); # like that
17:59 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«foob␤»
18:01 FROGGS nqp: my @a := <f o ba>; say("foobar" ~~ /@a/); # dunno if this should match "ba" though
18:01 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«f␤»
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18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: 045b7bd | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/045b7bd388
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: 962a2e1 | coke++ | / (3 files):
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/962a2e138b
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: 97fb2a9 | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/97fb2a9d75
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: 1f3451d | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/1f3451da53
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: e45dc6c | coke++ | / (3 files):
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/e45dc6c7ab
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: 14ffcf0 | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:11 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/14ffcf0e79
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18:11 perlhelp hey!
18:11 [Coke] ... wow. apparently forgot to do that for a while.
18:12 [Coke] Apologies.
18:12 PerlJam FROGGS: but /@(<...>)/  is different from  /@a/ and I was wondering if the former should really work.
18:13 jnthn The thing that's hard about it is 'a' | @foo | \w+
18:14 jnthn The things in @foo need to be folded into the NFA.
18:14 jnthn That's really darn hard.
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18:16 perlhelp hey y'alls :)
18:16 japhb masak, moritz: FWIW The LWP::* v. Mojo::* v. Some other HTTP framework issue is indeed what I was thinking of when I said LWP or modern equivalent.
18:17 masak japhb: ah.
18:17 japhb Also note that there is a *bunch* more work to be done in perl6-most-wanted.  I've only really begun the task of groveling through source-data/* to fill in the most-wanted/*
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18:18 FROGGS[mobile] PerlJam: but @( ) should be an array contextualizer, no? so it should work just like @a
18:19 japhb Of course, anyone interested in helping with perl6-most-wanted is ... well, most wanted.  :-)
18:20 japhb I wonder if I should just push the repo to the Perl 6 org
18:21 PerlJam FROGGS[mobile]: I dunno ... I would expect the innards of @() to be arbitrary perl code (just like it can be outside of regex), and it feels weird to have code without {}  (maybe I'm just too conservative on this point)
18:24 nwc10 the NQP version in Rakudo isn't new enough
18:24 nwc10 I'm not sure what the correct answer is
18:24 FROGGS[mobile] n: say "foobar" ~~ /$( "foo" ~ "bar" )/
18:24 p6eval niecza v24-23-g0520c7c: OUTPUT«「foobar」␤␤»
18:24 nwc10 OK. c41c8f46da6b8062112774938e26ebb8bff963f6
18:24 nwc10 given that c41c8f46da6b8062112774938e26ebb8bff963f6^ is the current
18:24 FROGGS[mobile] PerlJam: like that
18:26 PerlJam Does the spec actually mention $(), @(), and %() in regex, or are they just inferred?
18:26 FROGGS[mobile] PerlJam: you can put code in regexes using { } but it wont match, you have to use <{ }>. but how to tell it that it should be treated as array?
18:27 FROGGS[mobile] it is specced, yes
18:27 FROGGS[mobile] but I cant tell where right now
18:27 perlhelp is anybody fmlir with removing white space in perl 5?
18:28 PerlJam perlhelp: try #perl or #perlhelp or #perl-help on the varioius IRC networks.
18:28 perlhelp I cannot gt to #perl
18:28 perlhelp or irc
18:29 masak perlhelp: it's not a good idea to keep asking Perl 5 questions here, even if people are friendly.
18:29 nwc10 this is so bad, #perl6 deserves it:
18:29 nwc10 18:26 <@jjl> stop buying boloneighs?
18:29 masak perlhelp: frankly, if you can't get on an IRC where Perl 5 is on-topic, that's solely your problem.
18:29 masak perlhelp: and you should focus on solving it.
18:33 uvtc japhb: One thing which might benefit the p6mw (Perl 6 Most Wanted) is having indicators throughout which ... indicate (A) does the module need to be ported? (B) is it at modules.perl6.org? (C) has the module been made part of R*? (D) is someone currently working on it? If so, who?
18:34 [Coke] guys, what's a decent perl5 help channel? Perhaps we can hand perlhelp a URL to hit.
18:35 masak I hear good things about #perl-help on irc.perl.org
18:35 japhb uvtc, I was definitely planning that, for the phase of work after groveling through the source-data/ to produce raw lists of most-wanted/ stuff.
18:35 uvtc perlhelp: how about http://webchat.freenode.ne​t/?channels=perl&amp;nick= ?
18:36 uvtc Is there an "irc chat in your browser" for channels at irc.perl.org?
18:37 FROGGS[mobile] mibbit?
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18:39 geekosaur http://www.irc.lc/magnet
18:40 uvtc japhb: I've recently heard about http://play-perl.org/welcome though have not tried it. Makes me wonder if that could be used for p6mw.
18:40 japhb uvtc, I'd certainly consider it, once p6mw is in better shape.
18:41 japhb I expect p6mw is going to have some *long* lists.
18:41 uvtc geekosaur: Do you know if that web interface be used to access #perl-help at irc.perl.org?
18:41 japhb (Which is to say, until play-perl gets a little more populated, I'm not sure we want to just dump a huge list of quests into it.)
18:42 FROGGS jnthn: btw, this part already does work when hardcoding it: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/666966​d963bb26011115#file-rakvar-pl-L28-L33
18:42 FROGGS jnthn: I just need to do that at runtime :/
18:43 geekosaur uvtc: http://www.irc.lc/magnet/perl-help seems to work
18:43 uvtc perlhelp: ^^
18:45 uvtc japhb: another idea: if you're interested in seeing what folks think are most wanted, what do you think of inviting them to add a checkmark or ✯ or something next to items they deem important?
18:47 FROGGS PerlJam: looks like I cant find a reliable source for @( ) inside a regex
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18:50 FROGGS PerlJam: I believe https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=115298 tricked me
18:50 FROGGS though RT doesnt like me right now, cant open that page
18:50 FROGGS phenny: ask TimToady what @( code ) is supposed to do inside regexes (if it should do anything at all)
18:50 phenny FROGGS: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
18:54 masak isn't @( code ) just a variable interpolation, following the same rules as @array?
18:55 proller joined #perl6
18:56 FROGGS[mobile] masak: exactly what i think
18:58 [Coke] play-perl is not yet ready for lists of things you want other people to touch.
18:58 [Coke] it's (today) a list of things YOU are working on.
18:59 PerlJam (or want to work on)
18:59 [Coke] er, yah. but it's quests for you, not for others. (though the main dev has a quest to allow that to change.)
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19:27 japhb uvtc, I'm wary of recreating (part of) play-perl's functionality outside of play-perl.  But as [Coke]++ points out, play-perl isn't quite ready for p6mw, so we might want something like that in the interim.
19:28 uvtc japhb: another idea --- if you're looking for contributions from folks not on github --- is using the wiki.
19:29 FROGGS[mobile] what exactly is play-perl?
19:30 benabik joined #perl6
19:30 PerlJam FROGGS: http://play-perl.org/
19:30 PerlJam people assert a "quest" that they want to work on.  Others "vote" on that quest by liking it and they can comment on it.
19:31 japhb uvtc, The p6wm page on the wiki wasn't really cohesive and complete enough to help us figure out how to build Star (or some other distro release) in detail, so I don't think it's the way to go moving forward.  But I did use it as a data source.
19:32 japhb Besides, at this point you're at a huge disadvantage when contributing to the Perl 6 ecosystem without github access, so I'm (for now) just leaving it as assumed.
19:32 japhb (Though of course people are willing to make suggestions other ways.)
19:32 japhb s/willing/welcome/
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19:38 uvtc japhb: possibly of interest, Python has a "most wanted" poll at python.org (right side).
19:39 japhb The Python 3 poll?
19:41 uvtc Yes.
19:42 uvtc Seems like a Perl 6 analogue might serve to provide input to p6mw.
19:43 japhb Sure.  I don't have the tuits to set that up (I'd rather concentrate on the data sources I already have first), but I'd be very happy to see someone set up something like that.
19:45 japhb uvtc++ # lots of good ideas for p6wm
19:45 japhb er p6mw
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19:46 masak uvtc++
19:46 uvtc :)
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21:16 uvtc Ooh, ucfirst renamed to tc. Nice.
21:17 masak yeah. took a couple iterations :)
21:17 uvtc "Perl: Sanding down the rough edges"
21:19 uvtc And that's only *one* of my prospective entries in the Perl 6 slogan contest ... which has yet to be created.
21:20 masak "Perl: it knows which language you're currently parsing"
21:21 moritz r: for (42 => 24, a => 'b') -> $ (:$key) { say $key }
21:21 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'value' passed in sub-signature␤current instr.: '' pc 178 ((file unknown):140617967) (/tmp/jk39jrEyGD:1)␤called from Sub '' pc 256091 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:116240) (src/gen/CORE.setting:5590)␤called from Sub 'reify' pc 255106 (src/gen…
21:21 moritz r: for (42 => 24, a => 'b') -> $ (:$key, *%) { say $key }
21:21 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«42␤a␤»
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21:26 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map {tc $_} @a;
21:26 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/SKB8aG7MJC:1â�¤------> [32mmy @a = <foo bar baz>; map {tc $_} [33mâ��[31m@a;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix or meta-infixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        statement endâ�¤        statement…
21:26 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map {tc $_}, @a;
21:26 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    tc used at line 1. Did you mean '&lc', '&uc'?â�¤â�¤Â»
21:27 moritz rakudo doesn't implement tc yet :(
21:27 moritz just tclc
21:27 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map {uc $_} @a;
21:27 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/c7_TcEnBEP:1â�¤------> [32mmy @a = <foo bar baz>; map {uc $_} [33mâ��[31m@a;[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix or meta-infixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        statement endâ�¤        statement…
21:27 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map {uc $_}, @a;
21:27 p6eval rakudo a3869a:  ( no output )
21:27 moritz and you need to produce output with print or say
21:27 moritz :-)
21:27 uvtc Oh, right. :)
21:28 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map {uc $_}, @a; say @a;
21:28 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bar baz␤»
21:28 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; @a = map {uc $_}, @a; say @a;
21:28 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«FOO BAR BAZ␤»
21:28 uvtc thanks
21:28 uvtc Needs the comma in Perl 6.
21:29 moritz though of course you can shorten it a bit
21:29 geekosaur also, ideally probably $_.uc
21:29 geekosaur or even just .uc
21:29 moritz r: say map &uc, <foo bar baz>;
21:29 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«FOO BAR BAZ␤»
21:29 moritz r: say map &tclc, <foo bar baz>;
21:29 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Foo Bar Baz␤»
21:29 moritz r: say map &tclc, <foo bar BAZ>;
21:29 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«Foo Bar Baz␤»
21:31 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( s/a/A/, @a ); say @a;
21:31 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«No such method 'subst' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/pUdoYjPeUG:1␤␤»
21:31 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( { s/a/A/ }, @a ); say @a;
21:31 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bar baz␤»
21:31 uvtc Hm. Was expecting foo bAr bAz there.
21:32 swarley Woo, even more is getting done
21:32 uvtc In Perl 5, if I put an s/// inside a `map`, it modifies the items in the array. Does Perl 6 behave the same way?
21:33 moritz n: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( { s/a/A/ }, @a ); say @a;
21:33 p6eval niecza v24-23-g0520c7c: OUTPUT«foo bAr bAz␤»
21:34 moritz uvtc: I think it's a bug in rakudo
21:34 * masak submits rakudobug
21:34 moritz somwhere the rw-ness of $_ gets lost
21:34 uvtc Thanks!
21:34 colomon huh, I would have thought that was a nieczabug
21:34 swarley I can't help but wonder what I should do now, I have a feeling like I knew what I was going to do a minute ago
21:35 uvtc Why does s/// inside the `map` change the original array? Is it because that's what most commonly wanted in that situation?
21:35 colomon r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; say map( { s/a/A/ }, @a ); say @a;
21:35 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bAr bAz␤foo bar baz␤»
21:35 masak it's because $_ is bound rw.
21:35 uvtc It would seem to me that if I want to change the array, I'd use a `for` loop. Whereas, `map` would be used exclusively for creating new arrays.
21:35 masak as in <-> $_ { ... }
21:36 moritz uvtc: map and for loops are really the same in Perl 6
21:36 uvtc Ah. Ok. Thanks.
21:38 * moritz blug: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/per​l-6/2013-pattern-matching.html
21:38 swarley http://paste.awesom.eu/epN starting to come together nicely :)
21:39 uvtc `uc $_` returns a new string. `s///` changes $_. What other Perl 6 functions change $_?
21:39 uvtc Hm. Warning: It's possible that question doesn't make sense.
21:40 moritz uvtc: I can't think of any. Usually you use .=method to modify the $_ variable
21:40 moritz uvtc: so you'd use .=uc as a shortcut for $_ = $_.uc or $_ = .uc
21:40 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( {$_ .= uc }, @a ); say @a;
21:40 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bar baz␤»
21:41 moritz stuff in Perl 6 is designed to seldomly update a variable, unless it's very explicit
21:41 moritz oh, tr///, but that's NYI in rakudo
21:41 masak moritz++ # blug
21:41 masak moritz: one thing I learned recently-ish is that multi invocation is covariant (as opposed to only invocation, which is contravariant)
21:42 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( {$_ = $_.uc }, @a ); say @a;
21:42 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bar baz␤»
21:42 uvtc Hm.
21:43 masak hm, I did something nice with expression trees and subsignature pattern matching, IIRC...
21:44 moritz masak: if you find it, I'll link to it.
21:45 uvtc r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( { $_ = 'hi' }, @a ); say @a;
21:45 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bar baz␤»
21:46 masak ah, here: https://gist.github.com/masak/ca5a82ae76951cc387cc
21:46 masak I like it. even 5 months later ;)
21:47 uvtc Pfft.
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21:48 uvtc Oh. Wait. I don't think I meant that the way Bill meant that.
21:51 uvtc swarley: how is your port going?
21:53 uvtc n: my @a = <foo bar baz>; map( { $_ = 'hi' }, @a ); say @a;
21:53 p6eval niecza v24-23-g0520c7c: OUTPUT«hi hi hi␤»
21:53 uvtc Right. Same reason as pointed out above.
21:53 uvtc Thanks.
21:54 swarley uvtc; pretty good, I'm just about to work on adding in serialization before I go any further
21:56 uvtc swarley: looks like you're cruisin'. I haven't used Go.
21:58 * moritz thinks this is an excellent excuse to learn go :-)
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22:02 swarley It's actually enjoyable to code in once you get past the initial stage
22:02 swarley It is very helpful to have ++jnthn's nqp-jvm code as a reference however
22:02 moritz that's the feeling that several blog posts convey
22:02 moritz but so far I lacked a project
22:02 swarley At first it's pretty terrible
22:02 moritz and without a project I simply cannot learn a language
22:02 swarley Because you get the feeling like you can't do anything with it
22:03 swarley Because the standard library is all technical documentation and no examples
22:03 swarley So you don't see anything in use
22:03 swarley And it's not the easiest thing to search for
22:03 swarley googling, "go maps"
22:03 swarley not the most helpful
22:04 moritz :-)
22:04 swarley "golang maps" is a little more helpful, but still
22:04 swarley This might be the most actual Go code I've done so far by the time I finish SerializationReader
22:05 swarley So far it's mostly just a bunch of class declarations and throwing back errors
22:06 japhb moritz, typo '$x' in first code sample of blog
22:07 japhb typo 'sigle' in first sub-signature intro paragraph
22:08 alester Howdy Parrot/Perl 6 folks: A general question from me as the Perlbuzz guy (and also Gabor as Perl Weekly guy by proxy).  Is there anything I can help you with amidst all this turmoil about dead(?) projects and the future and blah blah blah?  Messaging?  Blog posts?  Tweets?  Is there something people should know about How Things Are Going that isn't getting out there?
22:08 japhb alester++ # for even asking
22:08 alester :-) Thanks.
22:08 japhb That's a very helpful offer.
22:09 masak alester++
22:09 alester You know I used to do TPF PR, right?  But I figured I could get more done outside the constraints of TPF.
22:09 japhb I would believe that.  :-)
22:09 alester What do people need to know?  What does the death(?) of Parrot mean to Perl 6, for example?
22:10 japhb Oddly, declaring it dead has brought more life to it than I've seen in ages.
22:10 PerlJam heh, that's true
22:10 PerlJam but that's probably just the "last gasp"
22:11 japhb Perhaps.  It's still interesting how taking off the shackles and going "no sacred cows" as allison++ put it brought back a fair number of people who had lost interest previously.
22:12 masak alester: I don't perceive a lot of shock in here that Parrot is dying.
22:12 masak alester: it's been... in the air for a while.
22:12 alester I had no idea.
22:12 japhb It's not something we wanted to go shouting to the heavens.
22:12 alester The air that you and parrot share is a small room.
22:12 PerlJam yeah, I don't think the death of Parrot means much of anything to Perl 6 (Rakudo)
22:12 alester Why is that?
22:12 alester I thnk THAT is something that is worth saying.
22:13 japhb nqp is getting ported to a wide array of VMs, actively.
22:13 masak alester: the JVM port is coming along nicely.
22:13 masak alester: put it like this: why do you think it got started in the first place? :)
22:13 masak and the foundations for it got started *long* ago...
22:13 jnthn alester: Perl 6 hasn't been tied to Parrot for quite a while (see Pugs, Niecza). Rakudo is working towards running on the JVM and is architecturally in a better place than it's ever been.
22:13 uvtc PerlJam: From what I've seen on #parrot, it seems like more than a "last gasp".
22:13 japhb The most active public ports are JVM, JS, and Go.
22:14 alester jnthn: All of this is news to me.
22:14 alester the Perl 6 / Parrot disassociation.
22:14 alester And I'm guessing that the world in general doesn't know about it either.
22:15 masak alester: shouting it out earlier than this point would've been... bad.
22:15 masak alester: and now might still be a bit too early, I dunno.
22:15 japhb alester, There's very active work (almost entirely by jnthn++, who is also heading the JVM port) to make the last remaining parts of NQP that are still Parrot-bound completely VM-portable.
22:15 alester I don't think you need to talk about Parrot dying, but the move to JVM is pretty huge I'd think.
22:15 japhb I don't think most of us would even be saying this out loud now if not for the last week of storm in the inter-project-relations arena.
22:16 PerlJam japhb: probably
22:16 alester Maybe it's a good thing.
22:17 japhb .oO( Someone tapped on the flask containing the super-saturated solution, and now there's massive precipitation afoot. )
22:17 jnthn alester: The important message I want people to hear is, "Rakudo is a compiler capable of targeting multiple backends". Just as GCC can target x86, Arm, etc. It's *not* about a move from Parrot to JVM, it's that the JVM is the first thing Rakudo will run on besides Parrot.
22:18 alester And that's a great message too.
22:18 alester Because unless I'm under a rock, nobody else knows that Perl 6 is aiming at JVM first.
22:18 masak getting the right message out there is tricky, even on days with good weather conditions.
22:18 alester I admit it's possible I've been sub-lithic lately.
22:19 alester masak: Understood, and I guess tha'ts part of what I'm offering.
22:19 jnthn I kinda don't want people to get the idea that Rakudo = Perl 6 on the JVM and that's all we intend it to be, that's all :)
22:19 alester Writing, strategy, whateve.r
22:19 PerlJam alester: Are you doing to draft a post or did you want one of us to?
22:19 masak alester: yes. 's cool.
22:19 alester PerlJam: I can't draft a post on my own because I don't know what to write.
22:19 alester But I would be more than happy to work/brainstorm w/you guys and write something as a draft.
22:19 alester To start some traction.
22:20 uvtc alester: my limited understanding is that it's not actually Rakudo per se being ported to other back-ends, but nqp. jnthn is currently working on nqp-jvm. I wonder if the one that works with parrot should be renamed nqp-parrot?
22:20 alester I also have the benefit of being from the outside.
22:20 uvtc jnthn: Please let me know if that's incorrect. :)
22:21 alester and so when you guys go "blah balh NQP" I can say "NQP needs an explanation"
22:21 alester Right now, you know what I see out there?  Or at least in /r/perl on Reddit?
22:21 alester Muntz-level "HA HA HA"
22:21 masak alester: I have talked to people (at pre-conf pub evenings, and such) who are similarly not-involved-every-day. they have shown similar surprise at me saying that we're looking beyond Parrot.
22:22 pmichaud my @a = <foo bar baz>; for @a { s/a/A/ }; say @a   # RT #116731
22:22 pmichaud r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; for @a { s/a/A/ }; say @a   # RT #116731
22:22 masak it seems to be something that's plain to us but not to people sufficiently outside.
22:22 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«foo bAr bAz␤»
22:22 alester Right.  ANd I'm glad to be the Sufficiently Otuside.
22:22 grondilu joined #perl6
22:22 pmichaud looks to me as though there's something wrong with .map
22:23 pmichaud or map as a function call, or *@slurpy argument handling
22:23 pmichaud since the block is correctly getting the rw-ness of $_
22:23 * pmichaud reads backscroll
22:23 geekosaur don't we already know map has an issue with that?
22:24 pmichaud well, since 'for' uses 'map' internally, it's not exactly a problem with "map", or there's something more subtle going on
22:27 pmichaud 18:13 <jnthn> The thing that's hard about it is 'a' | @foo | \w+
22:27 pmichaud 18:14 <jnthn> The things in @foo need to be folded into the NFA.
22:27 pmichaud jnthn: only if @foo is a constant at compile-time
22:27 pmichaud (unless the spec changed again)
22:28 masak no, I don't think it changed.
22:28 jnthn Ah...
22:28 masak does that mean that there are two code paths for something like that?
22:28 jnthn So what does it really mean
22:28 jnthn a | @a | \w+
22:28 jnthn Is really
22:28 alester So does anyone want to take this ball?
22:28 jnthn a | \w+ || @a
22:28 alester Or should I just leave it with "I'm here for you guys"
22:29 pmichaud jnthn: I don't know... the spec doesn't quite say what to do there
22:29 thou joined #perl6
22:30 pmichaud although the spec actually says "external longest token matching", which might mean that it's LTM internally to the regex, but not externally to other regexes
22:30 pmichaud so it might still need to be put into the NFA engine
22:30 masak alester: hm, here's a draft: "Perl 6 is doing fine. Rakudo is targeting the JVM, and has been for quite a while. If anything, the work towards targeting the JVM is going better than expected. (See jnthn's posts.)"
22:31 pmichaud S05:1296
22:31 pmichaud reading backscroll some more
22:31 jnthn *working towards targetting
22:31 jnthn Otherwise it sounds like "we're there already"
22:31 * jnthn is trying to make that the case :)
22:31 alester masak: That's a start.  And then I'll need to talk with someone who knows what's what for me to ask the questions that I need to write the rest.
22:31 uvtc jnthn: do you like the idea of having nqp-jvm, nqp-this, nqp-that? Is that the idea for supporting multiple backends?
22:32 japhb masak, That leaves out the key part that it's not merely a conversion to JVM, it's a portability play, with JVM being the second target (after parrot), and leading the effort to root out portability problems.
22:32 alester "See jnthn's posts" isn't useful because The General Public won't grok them.
22:32 masak alester: I'll be going to bed soon. I'll be here tomorrow, though.
22:32 alester k
22:32 masak japhb: aye. good feedback, thanks.
22:32 japhb And the JS and Go efforts are taking advantage of the portability-rooting from jnthn's JVM-port work.
22:32 masak all of these things need to be explained well in a post.
22:32 masak I'd be happy to flesh it out in a gist... tomorrow.
22:33 jnthn uvtc: I'm expecting large parts of the NQP code-base will be shared amongst them.
22:33 FROGGS[mobile] and careful
22:33 PerlJam masak: I may write a little something tonight and see where it leads me.
22:33 * PerlJam afk &
22:34 alester masak: Tell ya what.  Let me start with what you have and come up with questions that I think need to be answered for it.
22:34 alester and then we can go from there tomorrow.
22:34 alester What's yr email?
22:34 jnthn away for a bit
22:34 * pmichaud will also help with the "Perl 6 on multi-vm post"
22:34 japhb alester: can we keep it in gist or something with an URL, so we on the channel can comment too?
22:35 pmichaud gist +1
22:35 alester That's fine, and I still need to tell you "OK, I've got my first draft"
22:35 alester of questions.
22:35 japhb nodnod
22:39 * masak privmsg'd alester his email
22:39 masak yes, I will throw things up as a gist when we get far enough.
22:40 jdv79 joined #perl6
22:41 jdv79 does SUPER, or something like it, work in a method that comes from a role?
22:42 alester masak: Why hide your email from the channel?
22:42 alester Doesn't everone know you're masak@hotmail.com?
22:42 masak jdv79: no, because methods flatten into the class.
22:42 masak jdv79: so there's no such relationship between the role and the class.
22:42 masak jdv79: there is, however, if you mix in the role.
22:42 masak alester: :P
22:43 masak (everyone else: please don't spam whoever has that address) :P
22:43 alester Come on, fess up, your'e still 4359,382@compuserve.com
22:43 masak too young for compuserve, I'm afraid.
22:44 jdv79 so if i mix role R1 into class C2 which is a subclass of C1 calling SUPER in a method in R1 will call the copy in C1?
22:44 * pmichaud had a compu$erve account, once.
22:44 pmichaud jdv79: ENOSUPER
22:44 alester I had an AOL account, but only to pick the ladieez.
22:44 japhb I remember feeling snobby as a Compuserve user about that upstart AOL.
22:45 pmichaud jdv79: there's not really a SUPER in Perl 6
22:45 FROGGS[mobile] pmichaud: was it nextsame?
22:46 jdv79 i don't know the model at all - just wanted to know if one could do something like that
22:46 pmichaud nextsame dispatches to the next candidate using the same arguments
22:46 pmichaud but yes, nextsame, callsame, nextwith, callwith, etc.   are the typical "dispatch to the next level" calls
22:46 FROGGS[mobile] so that might do the trick
22:46 FROGGS[mobile] k
22:47 jdv79 thanks
22:47 jdv79 doc'd somewhere?
22:47 pmichaud jdv79: S06, probably
22:47 masak r: class C { method foo { say "hi from the class!" }; role R { method foo { say "hi from the role!"; nextsame } }; (C.new but R).foo
22:47 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}'â�¤at /tmp/tn1drQ4vS3:1â�¤------> [32m role!"; nextsame } }; (C.new but R).foo[33mâ��[31m<EOL>[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        method argumentsâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix o…
22:48 masak oh.
22:48 masak r: class C { method foo { say "hi from the class!" } }; role R { method foo { say "hi from the role!"; nextsame } }; (C.new but R).foo
22:48 sivoais joined #perl6
22:48 p6eval rakudo a3869a: OUTPUT«hi from the role!␤hi from the class!␤»
22:48 pmichaud alester/masak:  as a datapoint, it might be worth recalling that NQP has had multi-vm backend as one of its goals since 2009.
22:48 jdv79 nice
22:48 masak jdv79: this is all explained in S12.
22:48 jdv79 thanks
22:48 masak pmichaud: that's good to know. thanks.
22:49 masak pmichaud: was there anything in particular in 2009 that made that a goal for NQP?
22:49 pmichaud Yes.
22:49 pmichaud but I'm not sure that part is good to air publicly.  :-/
22:49 swarley Oh my lord, this is a lot of repetitive typing
22:50 pmichaud I think I can dig up the announcement, though.
22:50 masak oh, I think I remember that bit now.
22:51 swarley http://pastebin.com/nHHZ8vXc
22:51 pmichaud well, it might be easier to point to the time we switched from nqp-rx to nqp
22:52 pmichaud which I think was jan 2011
22:55 masak 'night, #perl6
22:55 pmichaud feb 2011 had the README change that explicitly identified multi backend
22:55 pmichaud https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4933c​8c79bb98cb25f44cda36075ed06ee452f8a#L0R81
22:57 japhb o/ masak
23:05 swarley bah. I'm not sure how to even test that these work yet
23:11 * jnthn back for a bit
23:12 colomon \o
23:19 sorear o/
23:34 Rix joined #perl6
23:34 autumn joined #perl6
23:43 perlhelp_ joined #perl6
23:44 perlhelp_ 2 Easy Perl 5 Questions.  Anybody can help?
23:46 gry perlhelp_: /msg apeiron, get back in that channel please :)
23:48 gry perlhelp_: oh, and you are already back etc etc, good
23:49 perlhelp_ yes!
23:49 perlhelp_ I don't know how or why!
23:49 perlhelp_ But I am also scared to post there.
23:50 gry it's ok, just give much details and folks would help you
23:50 perlhelp_ details of whta?
23:51 gry of everything you got: code, what you want, what it does, what you tried to solve the problem, why it didn't work

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