Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-04-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:38 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
00:40 xilo does perl6 have protected attributes?
00:40 xilo tried looking
00:40 xilo only saw private/public
00:40 sftp_ joined #perl6
00:46 BenGoldberg p5eval: print qq[Test\n];
00:46 p5eval BenGoldberg: Test1
00:46 cognominal xilo, I think protected attributes have been found problematic. I think Stroustrup said so somewhere and explains why so
00:47 cognominal Perl 6 is not C++ but Stroustrup's explanation may still apply
00:48 xilo cognominal: but almost every OOP language has protected
00:48 xilo stroustrup complains about a lot of things in c++. i had him for a few classes :|
00:48 obra joined #perl6
00:48 cognominal good languages tends not to repeat the mistake of their predecessor
00:49 cognominal * mistakes (plural)
00:50 obra left #perl6
00:50 flussence What problems do protected attributes solve?
00:50 cognominal but maybe it takes to design bad languages or have been  burnt by them to understand why other are good
00:51 xilo i'm sure if they were truly bad
00:51 xilo almost every OOP language released since wouldn't have them
00:51 xilo :|
00:52 flussence herd mentality has a strong influence on the popularity-minded
00:53 xilo well
00:53 cognominal xilo, I think the big lesson to draw from C++ is  that it has been originally designed as a premature optimisation and that leaves little place for growth. But that does not answer your question
00:53 xilo it's like goto and such
00:54 xilo it's not always the best, and can lead to problems
00:54 xilo but sometimes is necessary and fine if used correctly
00:56 cognominal flussence, herd mentality is not popular, but hive mentality is.  probably hive mentality is the popular version of the former. :)
00:56 xilo so the answer is
00:56 xilo perl6 only has private and public?
00:56 flussence the answer is that perl6 doesn't need workarounds like half-private half-public.
00:57 cognominal xilo: the important part about Perl 6 is that it has roles
00:57 cognominal * about Perl 6 an OO
00:58 xilo flussence: i didn't ask for personal opinions
00:58 xilo it was a yes/no question :|
00:59 cognominal the answer is no
00:59 flussence the language being designed free from legacy cruft from the start isn't a personal opinion
00:59 xilo flussence: that's an opinion
01:00 flussence you still haven't answered my question.
01:00 cognominal xiolo,  you learn much more from open questions than closes one so here we often tend to frame yes and no question in a more general frame.
01:01 cognominal xilo: the answer is "Perl 6 has no protected attributes"
01:01 xilo cognominal: yes sometimes, but interjecting personal opinions instead of answering isn't the way to discuss
01:01 cognominal but that does not answer the why or here the why not.
01:02 xilo personal opinions don't either
01:02 xilo valid examples do
01:02 xilo which no one has given
01:02 xilo so this conversation has gotten no where other than answering my original questin lol
01:03 flussence what we have here is an XY problem
01:04 cognominal xilo, I think Stroustrup had a valid argument about his mistake about the 'protected' as a mis designed. So I suggest to read Stroustrup (on that point, at least).
01:04 cognominal * misdesign
01:05 japhb xilo: Let's try this -- what do you want to do, that Perl 6 as currently designed is not allowing you to do?
01:05 japhb (By which I don't mean "protected attributes", I mean, an actual use case.)
01:07 cognominal I am searching a web page where Stroustrub explains his mistake. But maybe it is in one of his books.
01:09 xilo japhb: i'm converting some c++ code to perl6
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01:12 japhb xilo, OK, fair enough -- but those are fairly different languages, so it's going to be less than optimal to try to do an exact port.
01:12 xilo i realize that
01:12 japhb Usually it works out better to make use of the features of the target language.  :-)
01:13 xilo japhb: which is why i asked if it supports it
01:13 japhb OK, so then -- what did the C++ code *need* to use protected attributes for, that you would miss?
01:13 xilo it doesn't
01:13 xilo hence
01:13 cognominal xilo:  http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/pro​tected-attributes-make-no-sense.html
01:13 japhb Or was it just using protected attributes because that's C++ idiom?
01:13 xilo i need to really change things around
01:13 xilo it's a windowing library of sorts
01:14 xilo there's the base window that always exists, and you can spawn other windows
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01:16 japhb I think we're collectively talking past each other a bit.
01:16 xilo it uses the protected member to set some pointers to the root window because certain functions act only on the root window
01:16 japhb But why is that "protected" instead of public?
01:17 xilo let me post on pastebin the gist of what it's doing
01:17 japhb xilo, also, the page linked by cognominal just above is short and worth reading so we're all on the same page in this discussion.
01:17 japhb xilo, OK, sounds like a good idea.
01:19 cognominal japhb, the comments are worth reading too
01:23 xilo http://pastebin.com/9TChSMMX
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01:27 xilo http://pastebin.com/QxCCDnq9 noticed i typed something wrong
01:27 gtodd hmm does .WHY   work?
01:28 flussence the tests for it seem to pass
01:29 flussence r: #= foo ␤ class Foo { } ␤ say Foo.WHY
01:29 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'gist'; these signatures all match:␤:(Pod::Block:D : Mu *%_)␤:(Pod::Block:D : Mu *%_)␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:902␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7788␤  in block  at /tmp/lafrbeyeHI:3␤␤»
01:29 flussence r: #= foo ␤ class Foo { } ␤ say ~Foo.WHY
01:29 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«foo␤»
01:29 flussence there you go
01:31 cognominal Apparently Pod-To-HTML does not use .WHY
01:31 flussence it was written when that was NYI :)
01:32 japhb xilo, so essentially you're trying to hide *data from non-child classes?
01:34 japhb Are you trying to hide it because you don't want non-child classes to muck with it (alter the value, thus breaking things)?
01:34 japhb For that use case, Perl 6 would use a read-only public attribute.
01:34 japhb Visible, but not changeable.
01:34 xilo i didn't write the c++
01:34 xilo one sec
01:35 japhb Well, instead of saying "you" and "you're", perhaps I should be saying "the code"
01:35 cognominal data is written as a void*  because a subclass will probably cast it to a specific struct type
01:36 japhb cognominal, *data really is an opaque pointer; see the comment at the end of line 15
01:36 cognominal Some how it is too much (specifying the existence of that variable) or not enough (being incapable of specifying the exact type)
01:36 cognominal japhb: that's my point
01:37 cognominal a void* is a design smell of something that will be precised in a derived class.
01:37 japhb I don't see (honestly) how we are saying the same thing.  I'm saying that subclasses won't do anything but continue to treat it as a void*, because they're only using it as essentially a handle to hand to the wrapped library.
01:37 xilo japhb: root window has some special methods that only are operated on by root, hence the static Console root. instead of having to declare a root window and your other windows, data was made protected so the whole Console class can take care of it
01:38 cognominal ok
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01:38 xilo cognominal: you can't do anything with a void * if you don't know what it is  besides corrupting it which you can do to anything
01:40 xilo there is some retardedness in there
01:40 cognominal It can be opaque or it can acessed safely in subclasses
01:40 xilo but that's how the c++ was made
01:40 xilo i'm just trying to convert into sensible p6 code :3
01:41 cognominal xilo, one advice. Read about roles and read rakudo sources how uses them. It often recast (no pun intended) how one think about OO
01:42 japhb xilo, I guess I'm saying that when converting to Perl 6, if you don't want to restructure the code in terms of e.g. roles, it *sounds* like you want to declare 'class Console { has $.data; has $.root; BUILD { self!initRoot } }' or so
01:43 japhb But yes, I'd seriously suggest reading up on roles. They are just a way better way to do complex OO than a lot of older designs.
01:43 xilo i know what they are
01:43 cognominal * to see how rakudo uses them
01:44 japhb xilo, I meant no offense ...
01:44 xilo this C library i'm wrapping doesn't really require much in the way of complex OO
01:45 japhb xilo, then I think my suggestion of 3 minutes ago applies.
01:45 xilo of what
01:45 japhb -- 'class Console { has $.data; has $.root; BUILD { self!initRoot } }' or so
01:46 japhb By not declaring them 'is rw', those become read-only outside the Console class, but still visible.
01:46 xilo ha
01:46 xilo ah
01:47 xilo thought they were rw by default
01:47 gtodd flussence: I get things like:
01:47 gtodd use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context
01:47 gtodd Ambiguous call to 'gist'; these signatures all match:
01:47 gtodd :(Pod::Block:D : Mu *%_)
01:48 flussence yes, those are Pod objects, you need to call .Str on them if you just want plaintext
01:49 gtodd ah ok
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01:50 xilo r: class Foo { has $.bar; }; Foo $foo = Foo.new($bar=>2); say $foo.bar;
01:50 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Two terms in a row�at /tmp/iRg7GRt87m:1�------> [32mclass Foo { has $.bar; }; Foo [33m�[31m$foo = Foo.new($bar=>2); say $foo.bar;[0m�    expecting any of:�        postfix�        infix stopper�        infix or meta-infix�        s…
01:59 BenGoldberg Can anyone recommend an irc client for windows which translates those escape-[31m type sequences into colors?
02:00 BenGoldberg I'm currently using webchat.freenode.net, with which they show up as-is... which is basically linenoise :)
02:00 BenGoldberg Or at least, a client with which I could strip them out entirely.
02:01 xilo mirc?
02:01 japhb r: class Foo { has $.bar; }; my Foo $foo .= new(:bar(2)); say $foo.bar;
02:01 xilo or if you cool use irssi lol
02:01 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«2␤»
02:01 japhb xilo: that's ^^ what you wanted, I think.
02:02 xilo yeah
02:02 japhb BenGoldberg, or xchat
02:02 xilo so stuff is rw by default
02:02 japhb r: class Foo { has $.bar; }; my Foo $foo .= new(:bar(2)); $foo.bar = 3;
02:02 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤  in block  at /tmp/tdRSqdI0pm:1␤␤»
02:02 japhb xilo: nope, just can be set on instantiation.
02:02 xilo ah
02:02 japhb r: class Foo { has $.bar is rw; }; my Foo $foo .= new(:bar(2)); $foo.bar = 3; say $foo.bar;
02:02 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«3␤»
02:03 japhb But the 'is rw' changes that.
02:03 japhb or 'has $!bar' would make it not visible outside the class.
02:03 xilo yeah
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02:37 cognominal r: my %a = ( 'a' => sub { 'ha!' }); %a<a>.?()
02:37 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Cannot use .? on a non-identifier method call�at /tmp/Qq8Pcs7v11:1�------> [32m %a = ( 'a' => sub { 'ha!' }); %a<a>.?()[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�»
02:43 BenGoldberg r: my %a = ( 'a' => sub { say 'ha!' }); %a<a>()
02:43 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«ha!␤»
02:44 BenGoldberg I forget, what does .? do?
02:44 BenGoldberg r: my %a = ( 'a' => sub { say 'ha!' }); %a<a>.()
02:44 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«ha!␤»
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02:50 cognominal I was supposing that it would execute only if %a<a> ~~ Code
02:51 cognominal I was infering it could exist because .? works with a named method
02:52 cognominal I would even say it should exist
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03:19 diakopter seen kid51
03:20 diakopter .seen kid51
03:20 yoleaux I haven't seen kid51 around.
03:20 japhb diakopter, isn't he usually over on MAGnet in #parrot?
03:20 diakopter mmm
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03:27 Ben_Goldberg .ping
03:27 yoleaux There is no ping command; nor can this be construed as a response.
03:27 diakopter .construe this
03:35 Ben_Goldberg .ud perl
03:35 yoleaux pur'-el (n)  1. Computer programming language used mostly by male virgins, between the ages of 17 and 35, who are also well versed in the Lord Of The Rings stories.Pratical Extraction and Reporting La
03:37 labster That can't be true.  We never talk about Manwë and Varda in here.
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03:43 japhb .ask jnthn It looks like the next most common pir:: is pir::perl6_current_args_rpa__P.  Is that just replaceable with nqp::usecapture and friends?  If so, it seems like a good LHF.
03:43 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
03:45 japhb .ask jnthn I see an "odd man out" in the use of pir::const:: instead of nqp::const:: for CCLASS_PRINTING.  Was that just a missed conversion from some time ago, or is there a reason it wasn't converted?
03:45 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
03:47 japhb .ask jnthn Once all the pir:: is out of the Rakudo code, will you also be removing pir:: and Q:PIR from the Rakudo grammar?
03:47 yoleaux japhb: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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04:29 xilo damn... wish NativeCall and CStructs would be finished... just spent all this time trying to write wrapper only to find out can't because it's bugged ;_;
04:30 japhb xilo: What is not working for you?
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04:31 xilo japhb: c struct that has 3 uint8. so made my cstruct. whatever is getting interpreted and past to the C calls ends up screwy
04:34 japhb xilo, ah, you should talk to arnsholt then, he's the current maintainer of that stuff
04:34 xilo ah
04:35 xilo kk
04:38 xilo seems like no one is really maintaining or anything for all the C binding stuff
04:38 xilo had to use this nasty hack https://gist.github.com/skids/2771728 lol
04:42 japhb xilo, your interpretation is incorrect.  Work on C binding is continuing -- it's unfinished, not unmaintained -- but the next big piece has been somewhat delayed.
04:43 xilo different words same result lol
04:45 japhb xilo, except that the original words could be considered hurtful to those working on the problem.  While you may end up in the same situation -- having to use a workaround for functionality that is not yet up to spec -- we try hard here to be supportive of our volunteers.  :-)
04:46 xilo i know
04:47 xilo just kinda sucks scrapping entire project idea cause things aren't finished :/
04:48 labster Why do you give up so easily?
04:48 japhb Sure, I understand.  But the best response to that is to pitch in and help finish it!  :-)
04:48 labster Just wait around and it will get done eventually.
04:48 labster Or help out, like japhb says.
04:49 xilo labster: eventually could be 1 month or 2 years from now
04:49 xilo japhb: i don't have the skills to work on core language features
04:50 labster xilo: You'd be surprised.  I submitted my first module 4 months ago and now I'm working on core language features.
04:50 labster don't undersell yourself.
04:51 diakopter humility is kinda foreign. delusions of grandeur, I mean, hubris, is preferred. :)
04:51 japhb xilo, we do try to help people get up to speed -- and trust me, if your native language is C++, you've nothing to fear.  :-)
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04:52 xilo i do C kernel programming at work
04:52 xilo and before that was perl5 lol
04:52 diakopter xilo: I'm kidding, of course. Humility is a breath of fresh air.
04:52 xilo well not kernel, but OS stuff
04:52 labster The issue is right now that our project leaders are working on porting rakudo the the JVM (read: making everything faster).  Once that work is done, I'm sure we'll be working on more features.
04:53 japhb xilo, just start small and work your way up here then.  If you know a Perl, and you do C kernel programming, you're more experienced than many people who have contributed.
04:53 japhb .oO( "Come on in, the water's fine!" )
04:53 diakopter also insa ane other
04:53 diakopter urp
04:53 diakopter stupid p hone
04:53 xilo porting from parrot to jvm?
04:54 diakopter among other things
04:54 japhb xilo, well, more precisely, adding the jvm as another supported VM.
04:54 xilo i see
04:55 diakopter xilo: I'm curious what led you to try rakudo/NativeCall?
04:55 japhb But since JVM is the first added VM after the first, jnthn and various helpers have been hard at work making the NQP and Rakudo code more portable, replacing stuff that requires or assumes Parrot is the only VM.
04:55 diakopter blog?
04:56 xilo diakopter: i like perl5, wanted to learn perl6, so found a library i wanted to make a wrapper for
04:56 * diakopter wonders hos you dodged the FUD (justified and spurious)
04:57 diakopter *how
04:59 diakopter oops...
05:01 xilo oh and niecza doesn't have support for a native call type of thing
05:01 xilo so yeah
05:01 diakopter actually it's possible, just not ohvious
05:02 diakopter you'd have to do some IL generation... ;)
05:02 japhb xilo, it uses the normal .net methods of accessing libraries -- someone got gtk working in Niecza.
05:02 xilo yeah... no thanks lol
05:02 diakopter oh oops
05:03 diakopter but you can do it my way too, it's just stupid
05:04 diakopter xilo: yes the gtk example comes sith niecza
05:04 diakopter now that japhb remindsme...
05:05 xilo that's not really hard when .net libraries are (mostly) interopperable
05:05 xilo just use gtk#
05:05 xilo seems like that's what they are doing
05:06 xilo ah
05:06 xilo which is what japhb said
05:06 japhb ;-)
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05:10 diakopter lizmat: howdy
05:13 lizmat morning
05:13 lizmat breakfast&
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05:41 japhb Failing panda with new rebuild of Rakudo uncovers two problems:
05:42 japhb 1. The new nqp::copy, which powers IO.copy, does not seem to work -- it's got a comment that IO.copy is unspec'ed, so probably no failing test to notice the problem.
05:44 japhb 2. When the last line of a for loop results in a Failure, the Failure may not trigger properly.  (moritz -- sink problem?)
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06:31 moritz r: sub f { fail "foo" }; for 1 { f() }; say 42
06:31 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«42␤»
06:31 moritz aye, sink problem
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06:47 Heather hey
06:48 diakopter YO
06:49 Heather were trying to become Clementine user
06:49 labster hi
06:49 Heather labster hi
06:50 Heather but all I need is groobeshark and hotkeys now I've got own script  (Script) to listen it: http://heather.cynede.net/2013/04/f-openshark.html \o/
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07:56 kresike hello all you happy perl6 people
07:56 yoleaux 10 Apr 2013 15:55Z <isBEKaml> kresike: thanks for all the "happy"s. :-)
07:56 kresike :)
07:57 FROGGS .tell lizmat that v5's spectest fudging works now, FROGGS the prat had local changes to the fudge script and hasn't seen it because of about hundred changed testfiles -.-
07:57 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
07:57 FROGGS hi kresike
07:57 kresike FROGGS o/
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08:01 FROGGS .tell lizmat you need to update nqp/rakudo to make it work though (jnthn is refactoring stuff, and I needed to pull in his changes)
08:01 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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08:15 jnthn morning, #perl6
08:15 yoleaux 03:43Z <japhb> jnthn: It looks like the next most common pir:: is pir::perl6_current_args_rpa__P.  Is that just replaceable with nqp::usecapture and friends?  If so, it seems like a good LHF.
08:15 yoleaux 03:45Z <japhb> jnthn: I see an "odd man out" in the use of pir::const:: instead of nqp::const:: for CCLASS_PRINTING.  Was that just a missed conversion from some time ago, or is there a reason it wasn't converted?
08:15 yoleaux 03:47Z <japhb> jnthn: Once all the pir:: is out of the Rakudo code, will you also be removing pir:: and Q:PIR from the Rakudo grammar?
08:15 diakopter .tell jnthn yes.
08:15 yoleaux diakopter: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
08:16 cognominal r: my $now = now; sub a(*@a) { BEGIN { my $now = now; }; say( now - $now, ' ') }; a(|(1..2**$_)) for 0..15
08:16 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«0.02479915 ␤0.0578670 ␤0.0752480 ␤0.0955463 ␤0.1228598 ␤0.1466741 ␤0.1671509 ␤0.1969555 ␤0.2210602 ␤0.2436307 ␤0.2748047 ␤0.2955496 ␤0.3227044 ␤0.3864262 ␤0.53831108 ␤1.5823045 ␤»
08:20 jnthn .tell japhb it's not so simple as nqp::usecapture 'cus it hllize's arguments and handles natives too. I suspect it may stay as an op and we just implement it in the set of extra ops we'll add for JVM, so it'll get an nqp::p6arglist op or so (should not say RPA in nqp:: op names).
08:20 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to japhb.
08:20 yoleaux 08:15Z <diakopter> jnthn: yes.
08:20 jnthn .tell japhb CCLASS_PRINTING being missing is just an oversight; should be converted too
08:20 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to japhb.
08:21 jnthn .tell japhb other things may use Q:PIR and pir:: outside of Rakudo, so that can live a bit longer, but we may want to make it require a pragma and spend a while warning if the pragma ain't there.
08:21 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to japhb.
08:23 FROGGS morning jnthn
08:31 Heather hi krunen jnthn FROGGS
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08:34 jnthn o/ Heather
08:34 jnthn oh, and FROGGS :)
08:35 * jnthn thought the int8 stuff worked in structs, fwiw...
08:38 FROGGS ya, thought that too, but never tested it... (even my SDL module would benefit from using it)
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09:39 FROGGS .u ⏏
09:39 yoleaux U+23CF EJECT SYMBOL [So] (⏏)
09:49 dalek v5: e31c030 | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
09:49 dalek v5: test to see how that works
09:49 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/e31c030450
09:50 daxim what.
09:50 daxim p5 grammar? for real?
09:53 dalek v5: aa1276e | (Tobias Leich)++ | README.md:
09:53 dalek v5: perl syntax highlighting
09:53 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/aa1276e51e
09:54 isBEKaml FROGGS: Nice, I never thought this could be a module. :)
09:57 dalek v5: 863436a | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
09:57 dalek v5: text alignment
09:57 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/863436a0c2
09:57 FROGGS daxim: yes :o)
09:58 FROGGS isBEKaml: well, I believe nothing is impossible with the current implementation
09:58 isBEKaml FROGGS: ehh, is the STATUS.md doc right?
09:58 isBEKaml FROGGS: I see a rakudo error message about TTIAR in there. :)
09:59 FROGGS isBEKaml: it is just a test
09:59 isBEKaml FROGGS: well, I didn't say impossible. :)
09:59 jnthn Even the debugger is able to be module-esque rather than being tied into Rakudo itself. :)
09:59 FROGGS that is what I want to generate
09:59 jnthn Generally, the aim is that the architecture doesn't demand such things be core.
10:00 FROGGS isBEKaml: but what you see within the table are actually real values
10:00 isBEKaml jnthn: Nice things are nice. :)
10:00 jnthn The fun bit will be seeing if an alternative frontend (like the debugger) and alternative backend (like the JVM) can compose nicely. :)
10:00 isBEKaml FROGGS: are you taking the tests from somewhere or are you generating them as you go? (roast, perlito)?
10:01 FROGGS isBEKaml: I took the tests from perl5 source, and we have perlitos tests
10:02 FROGGS ... and made a roast5 repo out of that
10:03 isBEKaml jnthn: definitely, fun things are to come to perl6 land!
10:03 isBEKaml FROGGS: I was nodding off asleep in the day when I saw your commit message to jolt me awake in interest. :D
10:03 arnsholt jnthn: Did you merge nqp/hll?
10:04 arnsholt My internet supply has been really spotty the last few days
10:04 jnthn arnsholt: yes
10:04 jnthn arnsholt: And the corresponding rakudo/hll
10:04 jnthn arnsholt: Both branches are gone now.
10:04 arnsholt Yeah, I went looking for the branch and couldn't find it =)
10:04 jnthn ah :)
10:05 isBEKaml arnsholt: heh, my internet supply has always be spotty. It's literally dotted with useless packets. :P
10:06 isBEKaml *been
10:06 arnsholt For some reason my laptop flat out refused to connect to the wifi at the hotel I was at (for a work seminar)
10:07 arnsholt Which was annoying, especially when I needed to be online >.<
10:11 jnthn :(
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10:14 timotimo hello, people. what's new? :)
10:14 isBEKaml hey, timotimo
10:15 jnthn r: class This { }; This.new # this is new, timotimo :)
10:15 p6eval rakudo 460c2a:  ( no output )
10:16 jnthn timotimo: Also from backlog, seems something didn't work out with nqp::copy
10:18 timotimo oh. the rakudo tests didn't catch it, sadly
10:19 jnthn No, turns out copy is not spec'd and so not tested :(
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10:20 jnthn Alas, it is used by Panda...
10:22 timotimo how many hours ago is the message regarding that?
10:22 jnthn 4.5
10:23 timotimo ah, i was hoping there would be a better explanation than just "doesn't work"
10:23 timotimo i'll look into it
10:24 jnthn imho, we can spec it and add a spectest...
10:24 timotimo i need to do a few errands first
10:25 jnthn np
10:25 * jnthn is busy $dayjobbin' too
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11:14 anant S02:1940 says "$:foo       self-declared formal named parameter"    ... shouldn't it be ":$foo"?
11:15 jnthn No
11:15 jnthn That's in a parameter list
11:15 jnthn This is the named equivalent of $^foo parameters.
11:16 jnthn r: my $x = -> :$greeting { say "$greeting, anant" }; $x(:greeting('Привет'))
11:16 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«Привет, anant␤»
11:17 timotimo that's neat!
11:17 jnthn r: my $x = { say "$:greeting, anant" }; $x(:greeting('Привет'))
11:17 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«Привет, anant␤»
11:17 timotimo i wonder for how much longer perl6 will surprise me with cool stuff
11:21 anant jnthn: oh, so that's why the "self-declared" thingy in that sentence (S02:1940)?
11:21 jnthn anant: Yes
11:21 jnthn $^foo and $:bar are both declarations (as parameters)
11:24 anant jnthn: wow, this is head-spinning! Another question, is ":$foo" an example of twigil ?
11:25 jnthn No, but $:foo is :)
11:25 jnthn The pattern is <sigil> <twigil> <name>
11:25 jnthn $.foo # $ sigil, . twigil, name foo
11:26 jnthn The twigil pretty much always tells you something about scope or lifetime.
11:27 anant jnthn: which synopsis will enlighten me about :$foo :)
11:28 moritz S06 I think
11:28 moritz or maybe S02
11:29 cognominal :$foo is a pair
11:29 cognominal r:  my $foo; say :$foo
11:29 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«␤»
11:29 cognominal r:  my $foo; say :$foo.perl
11:29 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«"foo" => Any␤»
11:29 moritz r: my $foo = 42; say (:$foo).perl
11:29 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«"foo" => 42␤»
11:30 jnthn :$foo in a signature, S06. :$foo as colon pair syntax, S02.
11:35 cognominal by design, very often a :$foo pair is an argument passed to bind an parameter of the same name
11:36 cognominal r: sub foo(:$foo) { say $foo }; my $foo = 42; say $foo.perl; foo(:$foo)
11:36 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«42␤42␤»
11:38 cognominal this usage explains why the same syntactical construct has two different meanings in different context. They are indeed very related.
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13:34 gtodd pmichaud: tadzik: how are doc.perl6.org p6doc and all those sorts of things doing?
13:35 moritz occasionally somebody improves them :-)
13:35 gtodd p6doc Str    seems fairly errm slow compared to perldoc :)
13:36 moritz as does pretty much everythiing that builds on rakudo instead of p5
13:38 moritz which is why doc.perl6.org hosts static sites :-)
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13:39 hoelzro I think the best next step for Perl 6 web dev is site generators =)
13:39 gtodd heh yeah but that will automagically improve some day :)  p6doc seems very picky about where it is run from and where the index should be located etc. I can't see anyway to change that except hardcoded strings inside the script?
13:39 moritz huh? p6doc should look into @*INC
13:40 moritz which means it should look for .pod files anywhere that rakudo looks for modules
13:40 moritz if that's not the case, please submit a bug report
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13:44 FROGGS r: say @*INC
13:44 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parro​t/5.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/site/lib /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/5.2​.0-devel/languages/perl6/vendor/lib /home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot​/5.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib /home/p6eval/.perl6/2013.03-81-g460c2ad/lib␤»
13:44 FROGGS r: say %*CUSTOM_LIB
13:44 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«("perl" => "/home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parro​t/5.2.0-devel/languages/perl6", "vendor" => "/home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/5​.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/vendor", "site" => "/home/p6eval/nom-inst/lib/parrot/​5.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/site", "home" => "/home/p6eval/.per…
13:44 gtodd moritz:  actually it finds the docs but it seems not to  be able to find itself or the index.data file unless I run it from bin/p6doc inside the cloned doc repo ... I thought I might have done something bad to ENV or config settings  but can't really find any :-)
13:44 FROGGS moritz: custom lib is always in INC too, right?
13:45 FROGGS ahh, so it wants its own bin-dir in path?
13:46 moritz gtodd: oh, I've never looked at the index.data file stuff
13:46 moritz I'm not even sure if it's installed
13:46 moritz but yes, that needs fixing
13:46 gtodd moritz: I like static html pages for documentation especially when the idea seems to be dynamic updates, etc. Along with his /package hierarchy djb of tinydns/qmail fame had and idea for /doc/packages.html (an autogenerated set of links to /package/category/name/doc/index.html)  ... it worked well but wasn't used widely
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13:57 gtodd moritz: there seems to be some attempt made to "serve" the p6doc pages locally with a Mojolicious app .. but the routing doesn't seem to work ... perhaps something simpler to set up for local use that excercised some perl6 modules (HTTP::Easy?) would be a good idea  (do we like dogfood ?) ...
13:57 moritz we like dogfood, yes
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13:58 gtodd of course the doc.perl6.org site should be static and use massively optimized approaches in anticipation of the deluge to come
13:59 rking joined #perl6
13:59 moritz well, doc.perl6.org is static, and will remain that way (though maybe a dynamic search backend would be OK)
14:00 gtodd oops I just typed "p6doc HTTP::Easy" to take a quick look at how that might work  (if I'm patient panda tells me it is installed)
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14:03 dalek v5: 2d51ec5 | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/test_summary:
14:03 dalek v5: add script which produces STATUS.md
14:03 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/2d51ec57b7
14:03 dalek v5: c3d49d8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
14:03 dalek v5: smoke the whole testsuite!
14:03 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/c3d49d8b78
14:04 gtodd there's no docs but p6doc found the "placeholder" /home/gtodd/perl6/lib/parrot/5.2.0-devel​/languages/perl6/site/lib/HTTP/Easy.pm6 without problems
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14:06 FROGGS moritz: if someone wants to know v5's status, just point him to this: https://github.com/rakudo-p​5/v5/blob/master/STATUS.md :P
14:06 timotimo could you sort that by number of spec-(fails+skips)?
14:07 FROGGS hmmm, I coudl...
14:07 FROGGS *could
14:07 FROGGS then I'd add a summary too
14:07 * nwc10 wonders where Perlito stands on that metric
14:07 FROGGS nwc10: maybe a bit better then v5
14:07 nwc10 and anything else that is intending to parse or run Perl 5
14:08 timotimo i think perl5 beats v5 by a big margin
14:08 FROGGS hehe
14:08 gtodd moritz: I then did "panda install HTTP::Server::Simple"  ... then "p6doc HTTP::Easy::PSGI" and it found everything .. it was empty but it found it "No Pod found in /home/gtodd/perl6/lib/parrot/5.2.0-devel/la​nguages/perl6/site/lib/HTTP/Easy/PSGI.pm6"    so well I'm surprised because all that's missing is the documentation :)
14:08 jnthn timotimo: http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/00​0/007/666/_57c8a1a431a592af806925e57258202f.png :)
14:09 gtodd which folks will write eventually (perl6's pod format is different?)
14:09 FROGGS *g*
14:11 gtodd a bunch of nascent pods are probably incubating as README.md's on github
14:16 nwc10 timotimo: I know that it was a joke, but that's part of the problem. perl 5 is very compatible with itself. Anyone else has a massive deficit to catch up with.
14:16 nwc10 else they have a hard time selling a use case.
14:18 timotimo indeed.
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14:35 isBEKaml .u arch
14:35 yoleaux U+032B COMBINING INVERTED DOUBLE ARCH BELOW [Mn] (◌̫)
14:35 yoleaux U+0372 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ARCHAIC SAMPI [Lu] (Ͳ)
14:35 yoleaux U+0373 GREEK SMALL LETTER ARCHAIC SAMPI [Ll] (ͳ)
14:36 FROGGS .u ankh
14:36 yoleaux U+2625 ANKH [So] (☥)
14:37 FROGGS .u klingon
14:37 yoleaux No characters found
14:37 FROGGS -.-
14:38 gtodd moritz:  pmichaud: tadzik:    so for p6doc any local HTTP served version of a site's docs would need to behave like doc.perl6.org i.e. if I'm looking at  lang.html it should be accessible at locahost:8080/lang/  and where the page says --> "lang' is a method from type X::Eval::NoSuchLang" ...  those terms should link like this:
14:38 gtodd <a href="X::Eval::NoSuchLang">X::Eval::NoSuchLang</a> and the server/plackapp/whatever should be able to present X::Eval::NoSuchLang.html without the extension appearing.
14:39 xilo joined #perl6
14:39 gtodd so that it's sort of RESTful ... in a Perl::Package::Kindof::Way
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14:58 moritz RESTful doesn't have much to do with URL layouts
15:00 tgt joined #perl6
15:01 jnthn REST done Really Right (following the hypermedia constraint) treats URLs as opaque
15:02 jnthn With the outside world coupling only to the entry point.
15:02 jnthn Just like humans only couple to amazon.com, then follow links for the rest of the business process.
15:05 * jnthn bbiab
15:07 * FROGGS .oO( bbwab - be back with a beer )
15:10 census FROGGS ++
15:25 xilo mm beer
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15:38 xilo wish i could drink beer at work
15:38 xilo would make the day go by better
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15:38 kresike bye folks
15:39 xilo g'day sir
15:40 FROGGS coffee is my beer
16:01 spike joined #perl6
16:01 spike hello.
16:01 xilo hola
16:01 spike Quick question to anyone that's there from a Perl 5 user.
16:01 spike Will perl 6 replace perl 5 at some stage?
16:02 spike I always thought that Perl 6 was a rewrite of the base language but I've a feeling that might not be the case?
16:02 xilo no, they are different entities
16:02 spike Fair enough.
16:02 spike So they are existing as two separate languages now?
16:03 xilo yes
16:03 spike In that case what the reasoning behind Perl 6?  I couldn't find anything obvious on the website about history or that sort of thing?
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16:04 xilo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6 has a good description of the background
16:05 geekosaur I suppose you could say it's intended to be a clean break from some design choices in perl 5 that it's pretty much stuck with for compatibility reasons
16:05 xilo basically get rid of the nonsense cruft that's in perl5, make the language cleaner, and formally implement OOP
16:05 spike Ahh wikipedia..  don't know why I didn't hit that to begin with!
16:05 spike Thanks xilo and geekosaur for the info.
16:06 xilo perl5 has some really wtf stuff in it
16:06 xilo welcome
16:06 timotimo spike: if you're interested in more thorough history digging, you can read the original "apocalypses" where each part of the specification is explained (but it contains lots of outdated informations)
16:06 timotimo http://perlcabal.org/syn/ <- here in the "justification" column
16:06 spike Cheers timotimo.  High level is enough for me.
16:07 spike The goals make sense..  be interesting to see if Perl 5 every dies!
16:07 xilo i doubt it...
16:07 xilo hell cobol/pascal/etc still are used lol
16:09 FROGGS spike: after decades it was just time to create an up-to-date language
16:09 FROGGS you'll see what I mean when trying/reading more and more
16:09 spike We're just implementing a CICS based system in cobol.  I don't know why the business have bought it but there you go!
16:09 xilo ouch
16:10 timotimo sometimes i wonder if it would be a good idea to learn cobol to make mad amounts of money
16:10 gtodd jnthn: well I meant more that the URLs for web served documentation would be built up out of the ops functions variables etc. in a way that looks more like perl than html and web  ...
16:10 timotimo if you look at it like it's a "puzzle", then maybe it could even be enjoyable?
16:11 xilo timotimo: it's getting harder finding people that know cobol to maintain those huge ancient systems
16:11 geekosaur ...and are willing to
16:12 timotimo xilo: that's why there would be crazy amounts of money!
16:12 ggoebel joined #perl6
16:13 xilo indeed
16:14 gtodd moritz: so I guess the URLs are opaque compared to typical web_pages.html :)  ... but the web served part of docs repo I checked seems broken now ... is doc.perl6.org simply apache and static pages and a bit of javascript ?
16:33 gtodd it seems mostly to work that way if I adjust the root ... but is the idea to have an optional http://localhost:6666/doc/ "viewer" something like the R console's "web docs" (it will spit out text like "p6doc Str" does but will launch webserver and a browser window to browse the docs if you want).
16:36 gtodd so maybe p6doc -w Str would launch the (very small efficient) local webserver  and point a browser ...  p6doc -www Str would spit the url for the docs at doc.perl6.org and launch or point a browser window at it via --remote etc etc that kind of thing ?
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16:42 [Coke] Looks like TPF is not on the list of accepted groups for GSOC 2013. Neither is Pafo
16:43 nwc10 Did TPF apply?
16:43 nwc10 (I know that Pafo did)
16:44 [Coke] I thought they did.
16:45 gtodd moritz: and maybe a configurable setting for a behind firewall server part of the web address  could be used instead of 127 .. would also be useful
16:45 mattp__ [Coke]: what is pafo?
16:45 gtodd moritz: just wondering if there's some way I can help but it looks like things are almost done :)
16:46 [Coke] mattp__: The Parrot Foundation
16:46 gtodd parrot advancement foundation
16:46 [Coke] TPF == The Perl Foundation
16:46 mattp__ [Coke]: ah gotcha
16:46 gtodd does PAFO still get money from MoFo
16:46 gtodd (MoFo == Mozilla Foundation)
16:48 [Coke] I don't think so, but you'd have to ask the very quiet board members.
16:48 [Coke] (I *really* don't think so)
16:48 gtodd to me it would seem parrot and perl6 would be very good for HTML5 because (insert reasons ____) and ... The Moz wants HTML5 ...
16:49 gtodd hmm http://parrot.org/sponsors  ActiveState BBC MozFo
16:49 [Coke] gtodd: one time donors.
16:49 gtodd NLNet ... but possibly a dated page
16:50 gtodd yeah
16:50 gtodd Someone should tell them about "3rd time lucky"
16:50 [Coke] discussion about PaFo is better held on #parrot @ irc.perl.org
16:50 FROGGS "dukeleto Happy to announce that @parrotvm will be mentoring students in #gsoc again this year! If you know awesome CS students, send them to me :) "
16:51 gtodd :)
16:51 gtodd \o/
16:51 [Coke] FROGGS: when is that from?
16:51 gtodd hehe "this year!"
16:51 FROGGS [Coke]: two days ago
16:51 FROGGS according to http://parrot.org/sponsors (blue box on the right)
16:51 [Coke] ok. parrot is not in the list of accepted organizations. perhaps he needs to click on something to make it show up.
16:52 FROGGS ya, complete the profile or something
16:52 gtodd hmm that would be important to do :)
16:53 [Coke] also, http://parrot.org/ is horribly broken.
16:53 [Coke] whoops, ww.
16:54 FROGGS they say they accepted 177 projects, but only 169 projects are shown...
16:55 masak oh hai, #perl6
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16:56 FROGGS hi masak
16:58 * masak tags http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-04-10#i_6687602 as an autopun
16:58 jnthn o/ masak
16:59 * TimToady starts to fuzz back into existence...
16:59 yoleaux 31 Mar 2013 08:49Z <diakopter> TimToady: welcome back! :) \o/
16:59 jnthn TimToady! \o/
17:00 nwc10 TimToady: can I ask a not Perl *6* question, that you might be able to quickly answer with "I don't remember" ?
17:00 TimToady well, all but the bits they removed...
17:00 TimToady nwc10: you can try :)
17:03 FROGGS TimToady: \o/
17:03 nwc10 in Perl 3, toke.c added code which seems to be written to avoid using explicit constants. Did the C compilers of that era (or the machines) generate better code if they could (re)load a value from memory (or figure out that they already had it in a register) than if you gave them an immedate constant (eg '-') that it would take a smart optimiser to realise was already in a register?
17:03 masak TimToady! \o/
17:03 nwc10 see, said it wasn't Perl 6. :-)
17:04 TimToady nwc10: can you point me to a diff?
17:04 dalek perl6-roast-data: ca9cf2d | coke++ | / (4 files):
17:04 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
17:04 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/ca9cf2dbd7
17:04 dalek perl6-roast-data: 5bc7bf9 | coke++ | / (4 files):
17:04 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
17:04 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/5bc7bf9ea8
17:04 pmichaud TimToady: wb!  o/
17:05 * [Coke] ~~~ at TimeyWimeyTimmyToady
17:06 * [Coke] notes that rakudo has been failing S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t 20 - successful read binary data for 2 days.
17:07 TimToady I don't know if anyone relayed my pathology reports, but the basic gist of it is that the tumor was more agressive/widespread than they thought, but they still think they probably got it all.  won't know more for three months, but then the PSA test is a really good indicator, since there's not supposed to be anything producing PSA anymore...
17:07 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
17:07 [Coke] (today's run is in progress.)
17:07 TimToady *aggressive
17:07 [Coke] TimToady: best of luck.
17:07 TimToady thanks
17:09 pmichaud TimToady: yes, that's essentially the news we heard.  I'll remain very hopeful for a good outcome.
17:09 * jnthn also
17:09 * nwc10 had not heard it, but is glad that they think that they have it all
17:10 nwc10 also, I suspect that I might have my era of toke.c wrong. Trying to get a diff revealed older things...
17:16 * masak hugs TimToady
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17:18 [Coke] r: PRE ;
17:18 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Missing block or statement�at /tmp/6CTUNIVzyN:1�------> [32mPRE [33m�[31m;[0m�    expecting any of:�        statement list�        prefix or term�        prefix or meta-prefix�»
17:18 [Coke] FROGGS++
17:18 nwc10 TimToady: it's actually from perl 1.0. It's things like this part of perly.y: http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.​git/blob/perl-1.0:/perly.c#l333
17:19 nwc10 where it's doing tmp = *s++;
17:19 nwc10 OPERATOR(tmp);
17:19 nwc10 which makes sense if OPERATOR() is a macro that evaluates its arguments more than once
17:19 nwc10 and the "diff" I suspect is that the relevant code in 3.0 was copied from other parts
17:20 nwc10 so I might have answered my own question sort of
17:20 nwc10 sorry for the interruption.
17:21 [Coke] nwc10: hey! this is #perl6, not #perl1. :P
17:21 [Coke] ;)
17:21 nwc10 the diff in question *would* have been this one http://perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/blobdiff/1​3281fa4f8547e0eb31d1986b865d9b7ec7d0dcc..a687​059cbaf2c6fdccb5e0fae2aee80ec15625a8:/toke.c
17:21 nwc10 which is the diff from 2.0 p1 to 3.0
17:22 nwc10 for the code changes after `case '+':` for example
17:23 nwc10 actually, there *is* still a question.
17:23 frdmn joined #perl6
17:23 nwc10 crap. *I* need more coffee. I've jsut answered it.
17:23 nwc10 I'm spamming the channel and i'm not even an eval bot
17:27 FROGGS[mobile] nwc10: .commands
17:28 nwc10 to return you to your regularly scheduled topic, having just looked at Perl 1's tokeniser, and recently had the fun of looking at what it has turned into, I think that it's an *excellent* idea to write the tokeniser in something other-than-C
17:28 nwc10 (now that machines are powerful enough to make that a sane choice)
17:28 FROGGS[mobile] hmmm, must be faulty
17:28 nwc10 :-)
17:28 jnthn nwc10: We can't actually be bothered to write one for Perl 6, so we just write this Perl 6 grammar thing and then generate the lexer automagically :P
17:30 colomon joined #perl6
17:30 nwc10 so after a lot of time to figure out how to write the code to do that, it looks after itself. That's very long term laziness.
17:33 arnsholt nwc10: Do you consider (f)lex to still be C? =)
17:35 nwc10 if one doesn't have to write C, it's not C. But unfortunately Perl 1 to 5 were not using flex. It's C code. 12,000 lines of it now: http://perl5.git.perl.org/per​l.git/blame/HEAD:/toke.c#l12
17:35 * pmichaud thinks the above sequence should be saved as a "Perl 6" quote somewhere.
17:36 pmichaud afk, lunch
17:37 FROGGS joined #perl6
17:39 diakopter dpk: ping
17:41 ggoebel joined #perl6
17:48 diakopter .. if you have to think in C semantics even though you're not writing C, it's C imho
17:48 dpk diakopter, pong
17:48 Tene C's better anyway, because 99 is much higher than 6
17:49 Tene although Perl 6 is catching up quite a bit in recent years, with C11
17:49 diakopter dpk: hi :) feature request, or ignorant question if it's already got the feature
17:49 dpk fire away
17:49 arnsholt nwc10: Oh. Right. For some reason I thought Perl used flex
17:49 arnsholt In that case, I agree =)
17:49 arnsholt I was just a bit curious about flex, since it's kinda sorta C, but mostly not
17:49 PacoAir joined #perl6
17:51 arnsholt I have a fond memory of doing a simple data munging flex. My friend did it using Common Lisp and spent way much more time, writing lots more code and ending up with a program that was dog slow =D
17:51 arnsholt I had 10 lines of flex \o/
17:52 diakopter channel-specific definitions -    .? Foo is blah blah blah      .? Foo    <-- to retrieve definition    and a way to append multiple [or expanded] definitions instead of replace existing - also with particular syntax for replace [as opposed to default append] you don't need a "confirm" on replace.  Also, a way to enable one-way inherit of definitions, with transitivity. So this channel could share/modify the same set of definitions if *both* ...
17:52 diakopter ... trusted/inherited each others'
17:54 diakopter dpk: ^
17:54 diakopter enabling the trust is admin-only command obviously...
17:55 dpk hmm. i'll make a note. i can see why that might be useful (channel rules and stuff)
17:55 diakopter er, "... the same set of definitions *[as another channel] ..."
17:56 diakopter it's used a lot on help channels for shortcuts to FAQ answers
17:56 * dpk nods
17:56 diakopter or acronym explanations
17:56 dpk .acronym AAAAA
17:57 yoleaux AAAAA could stand for: American Association Against Acronym Abuse; Association Amicale des Amateurs d'Andouillettes Authentiques; AHo's Amazing Atlas of Antibody Anatomy; American Association Against Alliteration Abuse
17:57 diakopter .acronym A
17:57 shinobicl joined #perl6
17:57 diakopter .acronym AA
17:57 yoleaux A could stand for: About; To; Adult; Are; Amateur; Year; Area; Ass; Account; Action; Advanced; Individual; Advanced Digital Audio; First in Series; Away; Author; Association; Ask; Blood Type; Active; Excellent; American Bank Note Company; Anna; Answer; Article; Accept
17:57 yoleaux AA could stand for: Automobile Association; Ana; Battery Size; Associate in Arts; As Above; Architectural Association; Athletic Association; Asian American; Bra Size; Administrative Assistant; Anti-Aircraft; Aruba; Amino Acid; Atomic Absorption
17:57 diakopter *sigh
17:58 diakopter well, these would be channel-specific acronyms. :)
17:59 dpk ok, i'll think about it. if you want that functionality right now though, Bucket (https://github.com/zigdon/xkcd-Bucket) provides some of that functionality … i don't think it does channel-specific keyword associations, though …
18:00 diakopter wow, a 2100-line subroutine
18:00 diakopter nice.
18:01 diakopter jnthn: ^ example of extreme programming
18:01 xilo diakopter: all my whys
18:01 diakopter (bucket.pl)
18:02 diakopter personally, I don't see anything wrong with it... it doesn't indent horribly much; it's just a very long inlined command-pattern
18:03 diakopter but I know others would disagree
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18:03 japhb timotimo: Sorry for bad error report re: nqp::copy (I was bleary tired after finding the two problems in the first place, since one was hiding the other).  Did you get it figured out yet?
18:03 yoleaux 08:20Z <jnthn> japhb: it's not so simple as nqp::usecapture 'cus it hllize's arguments and handles natives too. I suspect it may stay as an op and we just implement it in the set of extra ops we'll add for JVM, so it'll get an nqp::p6arglist op or so (should not say RPA in nqp:: op names).
18:03 yoleaux 08:20Z <jnthn> japhb: CCLASS_PRINTING being missing is just an oversight; should be converted too
18:03 yoleaux 08:21Z <jnthn> japhb: other things may use Q:PIR and pir:: outside of Rakudo, so that can live a bit longer, but we may want to make it require a pragma and spend a while warning if the pragma ain't there.
18:04 japhb jnthn, understood on all three.  #2 (CCLASS_PRINTING) is a good LHF for someone with tuits in the next few hours ....
18:04 dpk diakopter: i have to go now, but, so i remember, could you file a feature request at https://github.com/dpk/yoleaux/issues ? thanks
18:04 diakopter sure
18:06 japhb moritz, I see you confirmed the sink problem with fail at the end of a for loop -- did you manage to figure why the bug is happening?
18:08 FROGGS [Coke]: that network stuff might be because of the newer parrot-revision we use :/
18:09 dalek perl6-roast-data: 31398bf | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:09 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:09 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/31398bf263
18:09 [Coke] FROGGS: you're off the hook:
18:09 [Coke] niecza has been dirty for 268 days. pugs has been dirty for 7 days. rakudo has been clean for 1 day.
18:10 FROGGS * [Coke] notes that rakudo has been failing S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t 20 - successful read binary data for 2 days.
18:10 FROGGS so S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t fails?
18:10 colomon joined #perl6
18:10 FROGGS ohh, not anymore as it seems
18:10 FROGGS [Coke]: nvm
18:12 FROGGS [Coke]: btw, got my own pass rates now :o) https://github.com/rakudo-p​5/v5/blob/master/STATUS.md
18:12 cognominal joined #perl6
18:12 FROGGS though you don't actually see a rate
18:12 cognominal__ joined #perl6
18:13 FROGGS but it will help me pretty much picking my tasks
18:20 [particle] joined #perl6
18:26 [Coke] FROGGS++
18:35 gtodd moritz: correction to all of the above ... Mojolcious updated some syntax .. and the htmlify.pl script broke because my graphviz was too old ;-)
18:37 [particle] joined #perl6
18:37 gtodd pmichaud: tadzik:  the p6doc app.pl from https://github.com/perl6/doc.git needs this tiny change for latest mojolicious :
18:37 gtodd -app->static->root('html');
18:37 gtodd +app->static->paths(['html']);
18:39 japhb_ joined #perl6
18:45 [Coke] regarding sixification of modules - can we either get more memory alloted to that instance (if needed) or setup an rsync for updating perl6 builds on that instance?
18:54 sqirrel joined #perl6
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19:16 grondilu joined #perl6
19:17 moritz gtodd: what's your github ID?
19:17 snearch joined #perl6
19:22 tgt joined #perl6
19:23 xilo hmm need something to do
19:24 gtodd moritz: opendev I think
19:25 gtodd moritz: not really mine :-)   ... it's sort of a leftover from opendevelopment.net not sure I have a password for it
19:26 * _sri wonders if perl6 has something like nested exceptions https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/8257
19:27 raiph i'm thinking it would be nice to be able to declare variables without sigils. this is interpreted to mean because of that i'm wondering what would it take to create a slang in which one could omit the sigil when declaring (and referencing) variables? is it even possible?
19:28 raiph s/this is interpreted to mean.//
19:28 FROGGS r: my \hello = 42; say hello
19:28 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«42␤»
19:28 masak IAI (It's Already Implemented)
19:29 gtodd moritz: this is not me --> https://github.com/gtodd :)
19:29 FROGGS masak: nevar evar seen that :o)
19:29 raiph FROGGS: masak: i think i mean something else (more)
19:30 dmol joined #perl6
19:36 labster masak: I took up your challenge and wrote some more character classes.  http://blog.brentlaabs.com/2013/04/pe​rl-6-is-my-mmorpg-expansion-pack.html
19:39 raiph i like sigils, for a few reasons. i liked the feature FROGGS demo'd when Larry introduced it. not just because it was a sop to those calling for "sigilless (sp?) variables". but that too.
19:39 jnthn labster++
19:40 masak labster: nice! \o/
19:40 masak it's really been three years? oh man.
19:41 masak labster: minor nit: s/The interpreter/The compiler/
19:42 tadzik labster: s/prophesy/prophecy/?
19:42 FROGGS labster++
19:42 FROGGS *g*
19:42 arnsholt _sri: I think moritz++ is the one who's most familiar with the exception stuff
19:43 tadzik labster: this is awesome!
19:43 tadzik labster++
19:44 FROGGS raiph: what did I demo? I can't follow somehow
19:44 * masak is more than fine with being Mäsak the Pretty Cool Guy :)
19:44 snearch_ joined #perl6
19:44 FROGGS raiph: and yes, it would be possible to omit sigils in a slang, like C or so
19:45 raiph 15:28 <FROGGS> r: my \hello = 42; say hello
19:45 raiph is what i meant
19:45 FROGGS ahh, okay
19:45 raiph i was thinking about something else
19:46 FROGGS raiph: you would just need to convince the grammar that you can declare a variable without a sigil and without a backslash, and you're (almost done)
19:46 FROGGS raiph: so tell us :o)
19:47 raiph r: my \hello = 42; say hello; $hello = 4; say hello # would dwim
19:47 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY!​[31m===[0m�Variable '$hello' is not declared�at /tmp/QIkMNdxUIM:1�------> [32mmy \hello = 42; say hello; $hello[33m�[31m = 4; say hello # would dwim[0m�    expecting any of:�        postfix�»
19:49 FROGGS raiph: what exactly is $hello? a reference to hello ?
19:49 raiph btw, i hadn't worked that out when i started typing in to irc so i just had to make that up because it was time to try. :)
19:49 labster thanks guys.  I should really join the blog planet.
19:50 larks joined #perl6
19:50 diakopter masak++ nice abstract OO O_O
19:52 labster I like sigilless variables too, but sometimes I just confuse myself when I use them.  It's like those sigils are serving as topic markers, which makes it easier for me to read.
19:54 FROGGS I only like sigilless thing in C
19:54 FROGGS not in Peril
19:56 masak diakopter: oh, you noticed? glad you like it ;)
19:56 raiph labster: yes, i agree. i like topic markers. so i would write $foo.
19:57 raiph not only a topic marker, but a scalar container topic too.
19:57 raiph that $ packs a lot of punch
19:58 raiph but someone else could write foo
19:58 raiph and if they needed to specify the context to make foo work (which is prolly a lot of the time) they'd write $foo
19:59 raiph unless they really meant @foo
19:59 FROGGS EBUGDETECTED: that reify_method is not defined: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/maste​r/src/how/NQPParametricRoleHOW.pm#L151
20:00 masak raiph: that seems like it would lose a lot of the benefits of the noun/verb namespace separation, though.
20:00 raiph only if someone chose to do that
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20:00 raiph as i said, i (and it sounds you) would type $foo
20:01 raiph others would type foo
20:01 raiph including, perhaps, myself when i wasn't myself
20:04 diakopter Peril indeed
20:06 diakopter masak: HAHA
20:07 diakopter masak: but you don't say *which way* it removes all doubts:  "This talk aims to remove all doubts."
20:07 diakopter the ambiguity is hilarious.
20:08 masak diakopter: glad you liked that one too ;)
20:10 masak diakopter: (it's an old joke. I don't know who originated it.)
20:10 diakopter ah. I didn't know that
20:10 japhb_ .tell timotimo Here's the actual error message from the failing copy operation: Failed to copy '/home/geoff/git/panda/ext/File__Tools/README' to '/home/geoff/git/rakudo/install/lib/​parrot/5.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/s​ite/panda/src/File__Tools/README': No such method 'copy' for invocant of type 'OS'
20:10 yoleaux japhb_: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
20:12 larks question about the byte code,perl6 compiles stuff to parrot byte right? So if I wanted to do some sort of operation on the byte code, I'd need to looking to parrot, right?
20:12 jnthn larks: Rakudo compiles to Parrot bytecode at the moment, yes.
20:12 japhb_ .tell timotimo (You'll only see that error if you work around the fail/for/sink bug by putting something after the copy operation in the loop near the end of .../panda/lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm ($_.IO.copy("$where/{$_.name}"); )
20:12 yoleaux japhb_: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
20:13 jnthn (Will also do JVM bytecode sometime in the next couple of months...)
20:13 larks jnthn: do you think that Rakudo will change anytime soon?
20:13 jnthn larks: Rakudo changes every day... :)
20:13 jnthn larks: Change what, specifically?
20:13 larks what it compilesbyte code too
20:13 larks will it switch to jvm, or just have that option
20:14 jnthn Have the option.
20:14 jnthn The architecture is the typical frontend/backend compiler one.
20:14 jnthn Perl 6 -> AST -> (some backend that targets a particular VM)
20:14 jnthn With the backend bit being selectable.
20:14 masak diakopter: there. all three talk abstracts written, and all three talks confirmed.
20:15 diakopter \o/ masak++
20:15 larks cool, I'm thinking about starting a project that is dependent on the bytecode and if it were to change it would change haha
20:15 larks thanks for the help jnthn
20:16 jnthn larks: What are you thinking of doing, out of curiosity?
20:16 * diakopter perks up
20:16 larks well, I'm a CompE grad student, that's all I'm saying `-`
20:18 * larks wouldn't mind talking but doesn't know about his advisor
20:18 jnthn OK. May be worth knowing that there's already a mostly-complete NQP that runs on the JVM and produces JVM bytecode. And I probably don't have to tell you the toolchain for manipulating JVM bytecode is much richer, so you may have an easier time there.
20:19 jnthn larks: Feel free to privmsg me if there's stuff you want to ask but don't want to or can't in public
20:19 larks noted =]
20:19 diakopter larks: plus there are hundreds of times more languages that run on the JVM than parrot...
20:21 diakopter larks: I assume you're optimizing at the bytecode level (what else would you do with just bytecode?) .. or translate to another VM, I guess, or JIT to some CPU... okay.
20:21 lee_ jnthn: i hate to waste your time, but... I looked at optimizing the reduce metaop for Ranges. but it looks like the Range is converted to a Parcel before being passed in
20:22 lee_ so the implementation does not have access to .min or .max directly
20:22 raiph labster++ # blog post
20:22 lee_ probably in over my head :P
20:22 raiph labster: cf http://www.oreillynet.com/on​lamp/blog/2005/10/ofun.html
20:22 jnthn lee_: Which thing gets passed the Parcel out of curiosity?
20:23 lee_ jnthn: the subroutine returned by METAOP_REDUCE_LEFT
20:23 raiph labster: 16 roles within Perl 6 community
20:24 jnthn lee_: Well, it does *@values, which is a slurpy...
20:24 lee_ jnthn: yeah, i was just playing around with making that not slurpy
20:24 jnthn Yeah, trouble is that slurpy will flatten the range I guess.
20:24 jnthn Hmmm.
20:24 diakopter wrap in capture?
20:25 jnthn Well, the other thing is to refactor a bit, to declare a couple of multi candidates and return that.
20:25 raiph labster: all, wrong URL above. should be http://www.perl.com/pub/2005/09/22/onion.html
20:25 jnthn multi reduce_it(Range $r) { }; multi reduce_it(*@values) { ...what we do today... }; &reduce_it
20:25 jnthn Or so.
20:26 jnthn Would need to turn the ?? !! into an if/else but that's no biggie.
20:26 lee_ what if it simply called $vals.reduce and the implmentation lived in Range/Array/etc?
20:27 berekuk joined #perl6
20:27 jnthn Trouble is that it's sensitive to left/right assoc and those things, and it'd be preferable not to spread that stuff out.
20:28 rindolf joined #perl6
20:28 jnthn It's almost certainly better to factor the optimization so it falls out of something like multi-dispatch, rather than doing introspection, though.
20:32 lee_ jnthn: would that Range multi candidate get called if it is being passed a Parcel?
20:32 timotimo r: my @map; @map[3][3] = "X"; @map.perl.say; @map = Any, map({ when Positional  { (Any, @($_)).item }; default { Any } }, @map); @map.perl.say; # why does it get flattened? :(
20:32 yoleaux 20:10Z <japhb_> timotimo: Here's the actual error message from the failing copy operation: Failed to copy '/home/geoff/git/panda/ext/File__Tools/README' to '/home/geoff/git/rakudo/install/lib/​parrot/5.2.0-devel/languages/perl6/s​ite/panda/src/File__Tools/README': No such method 'copy' for invocant of type 'OS'
20:32 yoleaux 20:12Z <japhb_> timotimo: (You'll only see that error if you work around the fail/for/sink bug by putting something after the copy operation in the loop near the end of .../panda/lib/Panda/Fetcher.pm ($_.IO.copy("$where/{$_.name}"); )
20:32 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«Array.new(Any, Any, Any, [Any, Any, Any, "X"])␤Array.new(Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, "X")␤»
20:32 jnthn lee_: Hm, maybe not, but even then you can write (Parcel (Range)) or so
20:33 lee_ ah ok
20:39 dj joined #perl6
20:39 dj hi everyone
20:40 Guest87564 i just figured out perl6
20:40 dalek v5: cfff2db | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Perl6/P5Grammar.pm:
20:40 dalek v5: lookup %*ENV for %ENV
20:40 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/cfff2db56a
20:41 FROGGS hi Guest87564
20:41 FROGGS (aka dj)
20:41 Guest87564 i have a problem with perl 5 with making a class which would be dynamically extendable, read add attribute in runtime
20:41 Guest87564 that is how i discovered perl 6
20:42 Guest87564 can someone tell me how convenient this is in perl 6, if its possible at all
20:42 FROGGS well, then welcome :o)
20:42 FROGGS you can define roles and mix then in at runtime for example
20:43 masak yeah, I'd just keep doing 'but' with more roles.
20:44 japhb_ Guest87564, also, you can use the metamodel to directly manipulate OO structures (classes, roles, instances, etc.) if the standard syntax like runtime role mixin is not enough for you.
20:44 xilo you can do that at runtime?
20:44 FROGGS r: class A { }; role B { method hello { say "hello" } }; my $a = A.new; $a does B; $a.hello
20:44 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«hello␤»
20:44 xilo that's really neato
20:44 masak \o/
20:44 masak yeah, it's nice.
20:44 masak and that's 'does'.
20:44 japhb_ jnthn: he can haz awesome sauce.
20:44 xilo makes component programming ez sauce
20:44 masak with 'but', you get to keep the original object, too.
20:45 Guest87564 yap, that´s what i figured out from here http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Add_a_varia​ble_to_a_class_instance_at_runtime#Perl
20:46 Guest87564 2 more questions: i guess that there is get_all_attributes?
20:46 Guest87564 but thats only a guess
20:46 masak Guest87564: yeah, just ask the meta layer.
20:47 Guest87564 another question is if win7 64bit is supported?
20:47 masak r: class C { has $.foo; has $.bar }; say C.^attributes
20:47 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«$!foo $!bar␤»
20:47 masak Guest87564: yes, win7 64bit is supported.
20:47 japhb_ r: class A { has $.foo; has $.bar; }; my A $a .= new; DUMP($a);
20:47 xilo Guest87564: yeah i have rakudo running on my windows 7 box
20:47 p6eval rakudo 460c2a:  ( no output )
20:47 masak japhb_: 'say'
20:47 japhb_ r: class A { has $.foo; has $.bar; }; my A $a .= new; .say for $a.^attributes;
20:47 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«$!foo␤$!bar␤»
20:48 FROGGS r: say Str.^methods
20:48 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«BUILD Int Num chomp chop substr pred succ match ords lines samecase samespace trim-leading trim-trailing trim words encode capitalize wordcase trans indent codes tclc path WHICH Bool Str DUMP ACCEPTS Numeric gist perl comb subst split␤»
20:48 japhb_ masak, I know.  :-)
20:48 FROGGS Guest87564: see, everything is there, and pretty easy too
20:49 Guest87564 ok, great
20:49 Guest87564 i also hope that there is LWP
20:49 FROGGS r: class A { has $.foo; has $.bar; }; my A $a .= new; say $a.DUMP; # that looks nice
20:49 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«A<1>(␤    :foo(â–¶Any),␤    :bar(â–¶Any)␤)␤»
20:50 Guest87564 http://search.cpan.org/~gaas​/libwww-perl-6.05/lib/LWP.pm cause that is basically why I started perl
20:50 xilo LWP is on the most wanted list
20:51 Guest87564 xilo: which means it´s there, i guess?
20:51 xilo Guest87564: which means it's a WIP/doesn't exist and is something that people really want
20:52 Guest87564 aha, i hope it come soon. i am not very familiar with perl
20:52 Guest87564 but what i have compared perl 5 vs 6
20:52 Guest87564 i found 6 much easier to use
20:53 japhb_ FROGGS, glad you like it.  ;-)
20:53 FROGGS :o)
20:53 FROGGS yepp
20:53 FROGGS japhb_: you did that?
20:53 japhb_ yup
20:53 FROGGS japhb++
20:53 FROGGS the <1> after the name is the definedness?
20:54 Guest87564 i mean, this add_attribute via a_role i figured out in perl 6 just from the code, while in perl 5 i still cannt get it running properly
20:54 japhb_ Actually, it's the ordinal of the object as it was found in the (possibly circular or aliased) object graph.  That way it can show you when you have two things that are bound to the same object, and which one it is.
20:55 FROGGS that is because perl5 was not made for these things...
20:55 Guest87564 i guessed so
20:55 FROGGS japhb: ahh, thanks
20:56 dalek v5: 2d7dcbb | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
20:56 dalek v5: (I wish it would be an automatic-) smoke test update
20:56 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/2d7dcbbf28
20:56 Guest87564 so, is there any easy to use devel environment for perl 6 as e.g. eclipse with EPIC?
20:56 FROGGS hmmm, no
20:57 japhb_ The right pointing triangle means 'held in a scalar container', a leading infinity symbol means 'is marked infinite', and a leading = sign means 'same as an already seen object'
20:57 FROGGS Guest87564: you have to install rakudo (or rakudo star) and use your editor of your choice
20:58 Guest87564 okey dokey, but some integration package, that when you hit play it executes the script does not exist
21:02 xilo Guest87564: you could use vim and setup a shortcut :3
21:03 Guest87564 yap, but i do like eclipse, and its svn. :-)
21:03 Guest87564 ok guys, i am gone for now
21:03 Guest87564 gotta sleep
21:03 Guest87564 wish u luck
21:03 Guest87564 ciao
21:03 masak o/
21:03 xilo g'night sir
21:04 japhb_ I love friendly, curious guests.
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21:12 masak 'night, #perl6
21:13 japhb_ o/
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23:08 labster r: my $t = now; my $a = "a";  $a ne '' for ^50000; say now - $t;
23:08 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«2.2234445␤»
23:09 labster r: my $t = now; my $a = "a";  ($a eq '').not for ^50000; say now - $t;
23:09 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«0.8715064␤»
23:09 labster Why does ne take twice as long here?
23:10 labster r: my $t = now; my $a = "a";  $a eq '' for ^50000; say now - $t;
23:10 p6eval rakudo 460c2a: OUTPUT«0.6334043␤»
23:10 labster eq takes even less time.
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23:17 japhb_ labster: because ne is defined in terms of a metaop on eq.
23:18 japhb_ src/core/Stringy.pm:multi infix:<ne>(Mu \a, Mu \b)   { a !eq b }
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23:30 labster Parrot defines isne as a counterpart to iseq, but we're not using it.  I'd imagine that we're not in the mood to add opcodes, though.
23:55 japhb_ labster, if the opcode already exists in the nqp:: space, you can always add more str and Str:D multis to src/core/Str.pm
23:56 japhb_ (next to all the places that nqp::iseq_s() is used)

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