Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-04-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 lichtkind everything .)
00:12 japhb Ah, well -- perl6-bench can extract and build various versions of Rakudo, benchmark them, and compare them.  But it does not yet have comprehensive tests to really check all angles.  There are some tests that are runnable on current Rakudo that are so incredibly space or time wasting that they cannot be reasonably run on older ones -- those usually tell quite the tale.
00:13 japhb lichtkind, otherwise I'd say look in the git commit logs for promising commits, and talk to pmichaud or jnthn for things they remember.  But if you do so -- write it all down so that in the future when people ask, we can just point them somewhere
00:14 japhb Oh, and pmichaud did an interesting presentation on big improvements to startup time and such.
00:15 lichtkind where :)
00:15 lichtkind thanks y lot
00:17 lichtkind actually im writing an article :)
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02:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: 771936f | coke++ | / (4 files):
02:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
02:07 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/771936fb36
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02:16 dalek roast: ff603bb | coke++ | S11-modules/require.t:
02:16 dalek roast: pugs fudge
02:16 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/ff603bb1fb
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02:33 lichtkind is | now a sigil?
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02:35 sorear no.
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02:45 darkf can roles imply other roles? (e.g. if I have a role Foo that when included with `does` will also ensure role Bar is included)
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02:53 lichtkind darkf: i think so
02:55 darkf lichtkind: how would I do that? just `$self does ...` in the role or another way?
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02:59 lichtkind darkf: both ways with does in role or with also does compile time
02:59 lichtkind i mean both is compile time
03:01 darkf lichtkind: alright, cool - how would I access members from other roles inside another role? I get "Attribute $!x not declared in role Foo" because it's defined in Bar, even when doing `role Foo does Bar`, etc.
03:03 japhb darkf, private attributes really are private to the class/role they are defined in.
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03:03 japhb This is What You Want, even though many languages seem to not get this right.
03:04 japhb darkf, perhaps you want to declare and refer to public attributes instead?
03:05 darkf japhb: yep - they should be public data
03:06 skids S14 states that private attributes are not private from the viewpoint of role composition.
03:06 skids Which is important for actually making roles useful.
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03:06 skids It's just NYI, AFIAK.
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03:09 darkf well, to be clear, I am trying to do this: http://pastebin.com/TDwxnscE I just don't understand how to access Foo's x member I suppose
03:09 japhb r: role Bar { has $.a; }; role Foo does Bar { has $.b; method set_a($new) { $!a = $new };  }; class Baz does Foo { }; my Baz $baz .= new(a => 1, b => 2); say $baz.a; $baz.set_a(4); say $baz.a
03:09 camelia rakudo 7cd330: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Attribute $!a not declared in role Foo�at /tmp/FF14SHhAex:1�------> [32m Bar { has $.b; method set_a($new) { $!a[33m�[31m = $new };  }; class Baz does Foo { }; m[0m�»
03:09 skids Yes I think that is to spec, just not yet implemented.
03:10 darkf ah
03:10 skids I've had to use public attributes where I really want privates.
03:11 skids Though I'm unclear as to whether it is legal via the "$e does Bar"
03:12 skids but with just a class E does Bar I think it is specced to work.
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03:14 darkf skids: since I am new to Perl 6 (and really Perl in general) - would public attributes let me do this? - what would that look like?
03:17 skids It seems to work with public attributes, yes.  (just changed $!x etc to e.g. $.x and actually assigned a value to .x)
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03:19 darkf skids: oh, awesome, thanks!
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03:40 dalek roast: d915694 | coke++ | S (4 files):
03:40 dalek roast: pugs fudge
03:40 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/d915694885
03:40 dalek Pugs.hs: 371d836 | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
03:40 dalek Pugs.hs: track removed test
03:40 dalek Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/371d836774
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04:28 dalek rakudo/nom: 0d1d119 | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (2 files):
04:28 dalek rakudo/nom: Move lines() method from Match into Cool.  (RT #117461)
04:28 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0d1d1194a4
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05:18 [Coke] the def for multi mehtod fmt(List ...) seems dodgy.
05:18 [Coke] (the code seems to match the spec, but I'm not clear how it's sane.)
05:18 [Coke] r: "1\n2\n3" ~~ /.*/; say $/.lines
05:18 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
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05:24 [Coke] rakudo: use Test; eval_lives_ok '1<&1'
05:24 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤# Error: Whitespace required before < operator␤»
05:25 moritz r: say Match ~~ Cool
05:25 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«True␤»
05:25 dalek perl6.org: 39a9a11 | chromatic++ | source/index.html:
05:25 dalek perl6.org: Improved accuracy of perl6.org meta description.
05:25 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/39a9a1152e
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05:30 [Coke] chromatic++
05:30 [Coke] r: say 638 - 70
05:30 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«568␤»
05:31 [Coke] rakudo: say { $^x }.assuming(1).signature
05:31 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«No such method 'assuming' for invocant of type 'Block'␤  in block  at /tmp/QJ887nOCm4:1␤␤»
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05:40 [Coke] nom: role A { role B {} }; A::B.new; say "alive"
05:40 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&B'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:10834␤  in any  at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2504␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2492␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:939␤  in block  at /tmp/lKff6TvZBO:1␤␤»…
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06:29 FROGGS morning
06:30 FROGGS [Coke]++ # good job
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06:41 lizmat morning #perl6
06:41 lizmat fwiw, I don't agree with  https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/39a9a1152e
06:42 FROGGS lizmat: because it really is another language, rather then a newer version?
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06:56 lizmat well, for one I think chromatic should have consulted about such a change, that will have ramifications far beyond that page
06:57 lizmat and yes, I think Perl 6 is just the next major version of Perl
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07:00 lizmat back in 15
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07:30 labster chromatic--  for trolling
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07:38 * lizmat thinks its worse than trolling
07:39 lizmat *it's
07:39 lizmat as a former perl 6 leader / pumpking, he should know better
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08:03 cxreg lizmat: the wording in that diff has been generally accepted by both the perl 5 and perl 6 communities for a few years now...
08:05 lizmat then why does he change it *now* ?
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08:05 lizmat also, then why does *he* change it now?
08:08 lizmat grrrr, afk for the rest of the day
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08:32 kresike hello all you happy perl6 people
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08:40 timotimo liudelong_______: is something wrong with your 'net connection? you keep dropping out and back in
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08:41 timotimo that probably got lost
08:41 timotimo liudelong_______: is something wrong with your 'net connection? you keep dropping out and back in
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08:52 FROGGS timotimo: you're doubling the spam :o)
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09:07 cognominal lizmat, I have answered on github to chromatic's patch. the bottom line : we can see it either way, but "let's do as the romans do" and speak of versions instead of families.
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09:33 masak morning, #perl6
09:36 FROGGS hi masak
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09:45 diakopter "welcome to day 1 of masochist training"
09:46 diakopter "er, I mean masakist"
09:46 diakopter "or did you hear me right the first time
09:46 diakopter ?"
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10:05 masak cognominal: while I agree with your comment on chromatic++'s change, I don't see the connection between the two.
10:05 masak I prefer "newest" to "next", because "next" suffers from the "tomorrow never arrives" problem.
10:06 diakopter the email?
10:06 masak I haven't seen an email yet.
10:06 masak looking.
10:06 masak I was only talking about the comment on https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/39a9a1152e
10:06 diakopter er yes
10:06 diakopter I saw that via email
10:07 diakopter er
10:07 diakopter yes.
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10:11 diakopter I would like to express a sifferent opinio than the comment on Perl 6's competition
10:13 diakopter I don't think we should try to position, market, or think of Perl 6 as competition with those languages
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10:15 diakopter in the rakudo implementation at least, I believe it's much more comparable to the capabiloties of the languages with more than 3% market share
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10:16 diakopter in the not too distant medium-term, anyway ;)
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10:21 diakopter that is,
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10:25 diakopter if you think of the language as competing for indivi
10:25 diakopter ergh wheels up
10:25 diakopter bbl
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10:28 cognominal masak: he uses in his commit the "language family" expression and I suggest keeping the word "versions" because it is the common usage.
10:30 masak ok.
10:30 masak yes, then I think I see.
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10:41 moritz r: say ("a\nb\nc\n" ~~ /.+/).lines.perl
10:41 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c").list␤»
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10:48 masak cognominal: also, reading lizmat's reaction in the backlog, I am less aligned with chromatic and more aligned with lizmat.
10:48 masak it's not OK to snipe perl6.org web page changes from the sidelines.
10:49 masak either you're actively involved or you're not.
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10:52 cognominal arf, I have started a troll :(
10:53 masak "started a troll"?
10:53 masak did you mean "fed a troll"?
10:53 cognominal :)  :(
10:53 masak well, if there's general agreement that the commit is not productive, then we should revert it.
10:54 hoelzro since chromatic was once so invested in Perl 6, why has he become so...spiteful?
10:54 hoelzro I would understand disappointed
10:54 hoelzro but it seems like he gets a kick out of belittling Perl 6.
10:55 cognominal according to sjn, the agreement is on the side of chromatic.
10:55 timotimo could you give a link to the #perl6 irclog for me?
10:55 masak timotimo: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6
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10:59 cognominal Apparently, the p5er opinion is "Perl 6 forks Perl into a family" while the p6er opinion is "Perl 6 is what Perl ought to be".
11:00 masak cognominal: I disagree with that description of the situation.
11:00 masak cognominal: do you remember mst's post and mine?
11:00 hoelzro I think I would still classify myself as a p5er, but I agree with opinion #2
11:00 masak I agree with opinion #2 as well.
11:01 masak but I don't think opinion #1 is limited to p5ers.
11:02 hoelzro indeed
11:02 masak and the point isn't really about "what Perl ought to be", the point is really about "should we emphasize 6 > 5" and "do we call it 'next version' or 'next major release'?"
11:02 * sjn vaguely remembers that the "Perl family" thing was discussed at the reunification summit in Perl. Anyone here that was there?
11:02 * masak
11:02 masak and "Perl family" really started with the two "bridge" blog posts.
11:02 masak time to link them, I guess, to provide background. hold on.
11:03 masak http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/how-perl-6-could-kill-us-all
11:03 masak http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/f_ck-perl-6/
11:03 masak now, I know you will see mst's title and go "wot's he mean?"
11:04 masak but mst is actively *helping* Perl 6 here, in a very roundabout way which speaks to active p5ers.
11:05 masak ...to the point where he has shaped the discourse to be able to say something like "Perl 5 is about creating the best possible today, while Perl 6 is about creating all the best possible tomorrows" on the last YAPC::EU.
11:05 masak it's not something that could have been believed by p5ers 4 years ago, according to mst.
11:06 cognominal I hope that someday we will embed rakudo into chrome, creating an environment that I would call camelia. And there would no point of comparing camellia to perl 5 being entities of different nature. But I am day dreaming.
11:06 masak see also http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/the-wish-the-tuning-fork-and-the-one-true-heir
11:07 masak and http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/perl-6-and-perl-5-are-different-languages
11:08 hoelzro that mst post was great
11:19 cognominal r: sub a(@a) { @a.push: 1 }; my @a; a(@a); say(@a)
11:19 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:20 masak hoelzro: yeah, mst has been instrumental in calming the waves in the p5-p6 relations.
11:21 FROGGS hoelzro: you might enjoy mst's yapc recordings at youtube
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11:23 cognominal ewith that semantic of  allowing modifying composite arguments, we have little chance to avoid the successive folding and unfolding as an optimisation.  like in trying to inline &b into &a :  sub a (*@a) { b |@a }
11:24 cognominal except by doing static code analysis?
11:25 cognominal supposing here that &b is something like  sub b(*@a) { … }
11:26 cognominal r: sub a(*@a) { @a.push: 1 }; my @a; a(|@a); say(@a)
11:26 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«␤»
11:27 cognominal At least modifying slurpy arguments should be forbidden.
11:28 timotimo masak: i was hoping for a link directly to the time that the discussion started
11:29 cognominal timotimo:  http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-04-22#i_6732277
11:30 cognominal is there any instance in the wild of modifying slurpy arguments?
11:34 masak timotimo: sorry. :) I suspected that's what you wanted, but it was too-funny-to-resist to just take you at your word :P
11:37 cognominal masak: well, be consistent and don't blame census to take your  [got to] #server literally  :)
11:37 cognominal * go to
11:37 timotimo masak: i assumed as much :)
11:38 census huh ?
11:38 census :)
11:38 census cognominal++
11:40 timotimo oh, there was not so much irc conversation, that might be why i imissed it
11:40 timotimo i even got mails about it!
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11:44 census masak++
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11:54 masak cognominal: I don't blame him, really. it was the situation I found funny, not census' actions.
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11:55 masak cognominal: but yeah, I'm a hypocrite. guilty as charged. :)
11:59 census i'm gullable!
11:59 census masak likes to play that prank me on me often and i fall for it nearly all of the time ....
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12:04 * mathw really likes the Perl 5 <-> Perl 6 family thing that's been emerging
12:04 mathw (sudden Gentoo flashback: emerge perl-family)
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12:07 masak census: it's actually spelled "guillillillible". :P
12:08 census hahaha
12:08 cognominal I can spell bananana but I don't know when to stop
12:08 masak named after Gulliver in Gulliver's Travels.
12:09 masak boy, did they fool him to believe a bunch of stuff.
12:09 cognominal mathw: family like in family feud  :(
12:09 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:09 masak siblings bicker now and then.
12:10 masak and deface each other's web pages ;)
12:10 masak pmichaud! \o/
12:23 mathw hi pmichaud
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12:35 pmichaud (perl6.org changes)  I think it's chromatic++ on this one.
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12:38 pmichaud I don't think it should be reverted.  "next major version" goes against the core of the mst/masak posts.
12:38 masak I think I agree.
12:39 masak ...and people are still feel to refer to Perl 6 as "the next major version" or whatever, in private. but it's good if the web page doesn't.
12:39 pmichaud In fact, I remember noticing at the time of the posts that the meta tag still had "next major version", but didn't feel in-the-loop enough at the time to make the change on my own.
12:40 pmichaud (because I was busy dealing with a totally different flame war at the time)
12:42 * masak wonders if open source communities are flame-war-driven
12:43 timotimo if someone is gullable, what does one do to hthem with gulls?
12:43 timotimo i.e. how does one gull someone?
12:45 hoelzro masak: just throw a boiler over the flames: steam power!
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12:51 gtodd postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Str
12:51 gtodd ...
12:51 gtodd in block  at ./parse-spectest-progress.p6:25
12:51 [Coke] pmichaud: I just caught up with backscroll and agree with you. I think the change he made is in line with what we've been saying collectively.
12:51 cognominal There is a positional_delegate role in nqp and not in rakudo. What is the rational?
12:53 pmichaud cognominal: note that nqp and rakudo are not always precisely synced.
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12:53 pmichaud especially now, with nqp getting lots of changes to support multi-vm strategies.
12:54 pmichaud so there may be a reason for them being different, but that reason could also be "because we haven't updated rakudo to match yet"
12:55 cognominal pmichaud: in this occurrence, I should understand it is the later reason?
12:56 pmichaud cognominal: I don't know... probably jnthn++ would have to say for sure.
12:56 cognominal it is a nice feature btw
12:57 pmichaud maybe see when positional_delegate was added.
12:57 pmichaud if it's recent, then that argues for "rakudo hasn't caught up yet"
12:57 census joined #perl6
13:00 gtodd "postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Str"  ... comes from a block where I add parsed thingies to an array .. which I thought I remembered working.  Is this wrong:
13:00 gtodd @pass.push: @csv.list.[$i][0]<<pass>>;
13:00 crab2313 joined #perl6
13:01 moritz it lookos like @csv.list.[$i][0] is a Str, not a Hash
13:01 moritz *looks
13:02 gtodd yeah ... I wonder why it worked with a previous rakudo  ... I must've changed something
13:02 cognominal pmichaud: they have been added in February
13:02 moritz gtodd: old-ish rakudo had a bug that you could hash-index a string
13:03 pmichaud cognominal: then yes, I think it's added for multi-vm capabilities and rakudo just isn't using it yet in the nom branch.
13:03 * pmichaud utterly fails at posting a comment to 39a9115
13:03 gtodd moritz: wow! :-)
13:03 gtodd moritz: thank you for making me feel less insane :)
13:04 timotimo moritz: how did that behave? that seems weird
13:04 moritz timotimo: it was weird
13:05 timotimo how hard would it be to set up a system where one can evaluate an expression on hundreds of rakudo versions?
13:05 pmichaud timotimo: I suspect we first need hundreds of rakudo versions.  :)
13:05 timotimo automatically. and have sensible output about where the differences happen
13:05 timotimo generalise hundreds to N ;)
13:06 timotimo maybe even git coul handle the "backend" parts. it should be enough to track a few folders and checkout the versions one after another
13:07 gtodd timotimo: that would be amazin
13:07 timotimo are there some environment variables that change where things are put?
13:07 timotimo like ~/.perl6? where does that come from?
13:07 timotimo oh, apparently that doesn't exist any more on my system, must be a fossil
13:10 masak timotimo: it's an intriguing idea. a bit like 'git bisect', but with lots of Rakudo revisions pre-built in different directories.
13:11 masak timotimo: and one could still do a 'git bisect'-like algorithm on those directories, zooming in on the differences quickly.
13:11 pmichaud I essentially do that locally -- I have a directory that keeps compiled versions of all rakudo releases.
13:11 spider-mario LibreOffice does that, does it not?
13:11 spider-mario I think I’ve read that recently
13:11 timotimo masak: sounds like a fun project to me.
13:11 timotimo getting all the rakudo stars would probably give a decent sampling of the rakudo progress
13:11 pmichaud I don't have a system to submit a piece of code to them all simultaneously, though -- haven't needed that.
13:11 spider-mario they seem to do that, indeed
13:11 spider-mario they call it bibisect
13:11 Targen joined #perl6
13:12 spider-mario https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/HowToBibisect
13:15 gtodd maybe the system for submitting the code to the rakudos could be built with perl5  making for more p5-p6 family togetherness
13:16 * masak only now realizes that the chromatic commit pertained to something in the *meta* information on the page, not something actually appearing in the page body, which has been saying "spunky little sister" for ages
13:16 masak yep, folks. this is a non-issue. moving right along.
13:16 [Coke] More likely we'd try to write it in perl6 and eat our own dog food.
13:17 masak +1
13:17 masak nwc10 would approve ;)
13:17 timotimo gtodd: if i were to make this system, it'd have to be perl6, or maybe python.
13:20 moritz masak: the meta stuff might appear on google result pages, so it's kinda important-ish
13:21 gtodd dogfood.eat is good :-)
13:21 census joined #perl6
13:21 gtodd our $dogfood.eat ?
13:21 moritz (our $dogfood).eat
13:23 gtodd right
13:23 moritz r: (our $dogfood).eat
13:23 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«No such method 'eat' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/IjBB4HoNGs:1␤␤»
13:25 pmichaud r: (our $dogfood).sink
13:25 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«No such method 'sink' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/r7pMIyAIoP:1␤␤»
13:25 pmichaud o_O
13:25 gtodd moritz: names for the system are suggesting themselves before the system is built ....  kennel?  pound?
13:27 pmichaud "litter"
13:27 dayangkun joined #perl6
13:29 gtodd hounds
13:29 gtodd as in "release the ..."
13:29 pmichaud ...but everyone knows there aren't any Perl 6 releases.  :-P
13:29 gtodd haha
13:29 gtodd see ?  it would be an insider perlish type joke :-)
13:30 masak moritz: oh, I agree. meta stuff is important too.
13:30 pmichaud maybe it would be an outsider perlish type joke too, albeit one with a different punch line.  :-P
13:30 masak moritz: I just thought it was about text on the web page.
13:31 gtodd :-)
13:34 pmichaud I'm afk for a bit.
13:35 kaare__ joined #perl6
13:36 spider-mario r: (our $dogfood).pick
13:36 camelia rakudo 0d1d11:  ( no output )
13:37 gtodd moritz: so I'm trying to get this to work again:  https://github.com/moritz/svg-plot/blob/master/examples/parse-spectest-progress.pl
13:38 gtodd using Text::CSV  (... can't find Text::CSV::Simple ?)
13:39 rindolf joined #perl6
13:43 gtodd at first the masak part of it worked fine (Text::CSV) but I couldn't get the moritz part (SVG::Plot) to plot the results ... now I can get blank SVG output :-)
13:44 moritz gtodd: it's probably related to lists being flattened where they shouldn't, or vice versa
13:44 moritz gtodd: but I'm currently at $work, and can't debug it for you :(
13:44 gtodd np :-)
13:44 moritz gtodd: if you can't figure out, feel free to open a ticket in svg-plot repo
13:45 gtodd ok
13:46 daxim today's out of context quote: "So I just have to convert perl5 to parrot. Easy."
13:46 yoleaux 19 Apr 2013 18:54Z <japhb_> daxim: re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-04-19#i_6723489 , it's strange that when you mouse over a small glyph image, it zooms without improving resolution (I end up looking at a blur of large pixels).  Otherwise, very nice indeed.
13:47 daxim japhb, that's bothering me too, the glyphs could be vector pictures  http://caniuse.com/#search=svg
13:48 kbenson joined #perl6
13:50 skids joined #perl6
13:50 * gtodd wonders why p6doc seems to have massively sped up
13:51 moritz 🎶 it's a kind of magic ♫
13:51 gtodd ♫ never believe it's not so ♫
13:51 masak ugh, doing LaTeX (with lots of {}) and interpolating strings isn't a good combination in Perl 6. :/
13:53 spider-mario why not write reStructuredText?
13:54 cognominal masak: is there a way to globally change  the defaults for string interpolations?
13:55 spider-mario I’ve been using it to take notes at school, recently
13:56 spider-mario it supports math and code and can output HTML, which is quite convenient
13:56 census masak ++
13:56 spider-mario and I have a set of Tupfiles that take care of compiling them
13:56 spider-mario I love tup.
13:58 kresike since p6eval has been renamed to camelia, I think the http://perl6.org/community/irc page should be updated to reflect the change
14:01 gtodd moritz: OK I will open an issue soonish and try to summarize changes I attempted and what went wrong.  For the moment in my hackishly converted script I'm boggling about the success and then error I get!  e.g. around:   @specskip.push: $csv.field('spec')  - [+] @pass[*-1], @fail[*-1], @todo[*-1], @skip[*-1];     ......   it seemed to work but recently started complaining " Cannot use negative index -1 on Array "
14:02 masak aah. eating my own dogfood, writing small applications in Perl 6. I just found (and reported) a heredoc bug because I found it thanks to a program I was writing.
14:02 sqirrel joined #perl6
14:02 gtodd moritz: obviously not too important, but your svg-plot/blob/master/examples/parse-spectest-progress.pl  is almost a form of dogfood so would be nice to eat it :)
14:03 Woodi hallo, hallo :)
14:05 Woodi I see full spring is in effect, everyone have strenght for arguing :)
14:05 pmichaud perl6: say 'hello'
14:05 camelia rakudo 0d1d11, niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«hello␤»
14:05 Woodi btw. do wh have Australia division of v6 ?
14:06 pmichaud camelia: help
14:06 camelia pmichaud: Usage: <(nqp-jvm|star|pugs|nqp|std|niecza|rakudo|b|nom|npr|n|r|perl6|prn|rn|p|rnp|nrp|pnr|rpn|p6|nr)(?^::\s) $perl6_program>
14:06 gtodd spider-mario: is tup like scons?
14:09 dalek perl6.org: 5bde8d3 | pmichaud++ | source/community/irc.html:
14:09 dalek perl6.org: Change p6eval -> camelia, update addressing modes.  kresike++ for noticing.
14:09 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/5bde8d33c8
14:11 dalek perl6.org: 7d3a5fb | pmichaud++ | source/community/irc.html:
14:11 dalek perl6.org: Tense fixes.
14:11 dalek perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/7d3a5fb59c
14:11 masak so tense!
14:12 gtodd spider-mario: one day there will be perl6 based build system that becomes such a killer app that $EVERYONE will have to install perl6 to use it :)
14:13 nwc10 dogfood++
14:13 gtodd :)
14:13 nwc10 although, when it comes to real dogs, (what humans consider to be dogfood)++
14:13 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
14:14 adu joined #perl6
14:14 masak :)
14:14 nwc10 ie "dumpster diving in the kitchen bin is not dogfood"
14:15 gtodd haha
14:16 cooper joined #perl6
14:16 gtodd a perl6 based build system would span everything from better version of make to continuous integration, testing, auto-dogfood  preparation ... would need a fancy name like "Hudson"
14:17 moritz r: say "\n\n\nabc\n".indent(*)
14:17 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«␤␤␤abc␤␤»
14:17 moritz r: say "\n\n\n   abc\n".indent(*)
14:17 camelia rakudo 0d1d11: OUTPUT«␤␤␤abc␤␤»
14:17 isBEKaml joined #perl6
14:18 xantamoc joined #perl6
14:18 * PerlJam would prefer to eat bacon personally.
14:19 spider-mario gtodd : more like make but better, I’d say
14:19 spider-mario and only aimed at building
14:19 spider-mario not installing
14:23 masak PerlJam: but better than eating bacon vicariously.
14:27 isBEKaml good evening, #perl6!
14:27 pupoque joined #perl6
14:28 spider-mario tup tracks which files are hand-written and which files are automatically generated (and by which rule)
14:29 isBEKaml masak: I got the same word/though as diakopter when I saw #masakism. :P
14:29 isBEKaml *thought
14:29 spider-mario dependencies on generated files must be explicitly stated, and tup watches the commands it runs to infer dependencies on hand-written files
14:30 gfldex joined #perl6
14:30 spider-mario it also checks that commands do not create more files than declared in the Tupfile
14:30 masak (Useless use of "," in expression)++
14:30 spider-mario thus, a correct Tupfile is supposedly parallel-safe
14:30 masak I swear, it's almost as if Perl 6 gets better and more user-friendly over time.
14:30 masak or Rakudo, to be exact.
14:31 spider-mario and I love that it can watch a directory and update everything when something changes. :)
14:31 spider-mario or remove obsolete targets when their rules are removed. \o/
14:31 masak isBEKaml: I'd be lying if I said that was completely unintentional. :)
14:32 masak isBEKaml: but I thought long and hard about it, and I believe I can name it that without actually causing any offense.
14:32 masak we'll see.
14:32 xilo joined #perl6
14:32 isBEKaml masak: oh, wait.. :P (now, why would I sign up for a group that enjoys things that are ${m,w}ildly pejorative.;)
14:33 PerlJam It's weird when I'm reviewing some code at work and notice a couple of useless commas, then see <masak> (Useless use of "," in expression)++ on IRC
14:34 isBEKaml "Useless use of void in IRC context"
14:35 isBEKaml masak: from what I observed in perl-land, it's pretty hard to offend anyone with some mild play of words. Tells much about perl community, really. :)
14:36 raiph joined #perl6
14:36 PerlJam isBEKaml: I'm offended by that characterisation!
14:36 PerlJam ;-)
14:36 masak isBEKaml: nevertheless, I don't want to be recklessly causing offense just to be punny.
14:37 masak which is why I didn't name the course, say, "I'd fork that dongle"
14:37 isBEKaml PerlJam: you're... uh, an outlier. :D
14:37 masak PerlJam: I'm sorry *you feel offended*. :P
14:37 PerlJam masak++  :-)
14:38 PerlJam isBEKaml: being an outlier is better than being average 50% of the time  ;)
14:39 * masak .oO( being a scarecrow is being out standing in one's field )
14:39 isBEKaml masak: that was stupid drama over some private conversation - I can't help but think that perl folks would have reacted differently to this, given the same set of circumstances.
14:39 moritz isBEKaml: it's not "$language folks" as much as one particular person that attended the conference
14:40 moritz isBEKaml: and that one outlier can happen in the Perl community as well
14:40 isBEKaml moritz: I know - that one person commanded so much following that people were blindly taken in. :(
14:40 masak isBEKaml: the part of that drama that overshadowed everything else -- or should have -- is the thing that happened last: the violence/death threats to the feminist who posted the picture.
14:41 masak isBEKaml: not only does that bit prove without a doubt that we collectively have a problem -- it's much worse than all of the other petty things in that chain of events, combined.
14:41 * FROGGS is totally free of problems O.o
14:41 cxreg is rakudo meant to be "make -j"-safe?
14:41 cxreg it totally broke
14:41 isBEKaml masak: I don't want to label people as feminist or otherwise - but people were so much brash and violent without pausing to think about aftereffects of their actions. :(
14:42 FROGGS cxreg: make -j4 is working stable for my box, but dont use multiple jobs for make install
14:42 isBEKaml cxreg: I don't think so - though I use make -j2 occasionally (building the setting is a blocking operation)
14:42 moritz masak: I actually didn't even know about those threats, because I started actively ignoring everything related to that incident
14:42 cxreg i got a "load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'Perl6/Ops.pbc'
14:43 cxreg with -j 6
14:43 isBEKaml masak: I hit mute on that thread after a couple of days, actually.
14:43 FROGGS cxreg: can you no-paste the whole thing? including the commands you invoked before
14:45 isBEKaml moritz: outliers are everywhere - their distribution is just non uniform. :)
14:46 tgt joined #perl6
14:48 spider-mario cxreg : I got that one as well
14:49 masak moritz: I learned about it through Martin Fowler. http://martinfowler.com/snips/201304150952.html
14:50 FROGGS cxreg + spider-mario: but you are using latest nqp master and rakudo nom?
14:50 spider-mario yes
14:50 FROGGS (will test it in a minute too)
14:51 spider-mario well, I was at the time it happened
14:51 spider-mario but that was yesterday
14:51 spider-mario or maybe even saturday
14:51 FROGGS spider-mario: I am thinking that this might be faulty: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e9e1b5d9625d400453b922aca36417e96c040945
14:51 spider-mario This is nqp version 2013.04-54-gbfb3669 built on parrot 5.3.0 revision RELEASE_5_3_0-21-g438b1c4
14:51 spider-mario This is perl6 version 2013.04-6-ge9e1b5d built on parrot 5.3.0 revision RELEASE_5_3_0-21-g438b1c4
14:51 PerlJam masak: as long as no perl conference suffers such idiocy, we're doing good :)
14:52 cxreg i have rakudo 0d1d1194a4
14:52 spider-mario FROGGS : -j2 broke nqp as well, actually
14:52 spider-mario is that supposed to happen?
14:52 FROGGS no
14:52 FROGGS but this can be due to jnthn's sourc file renaming...
14:52 FROGGS this will work again pretty soon
14:53 masak PerlJam: not sure what you mean. YAPC::NA has a Code of Conduct. the Perl community is not immune to either sexism idiocy or overreaction idiocy or threat idiocy.
14:54 masak PerlJam: I personally believe we're *better* at handling all of those... but we're not immune.
14:54 moritz and we also have quite a bit of friction in the Perl community
14:54 PerlJam sure.   This is just one area where I hope most Perl people are close to the "average"
14:55 PerlJam Perl doesn't need any more bad press.
14:55 cxreg so with nqp-jvm-prep being merged, is the jvm build going to be part of an upcoming R* release?
14:56 masak PerlJam: from what I can tell, incidents definitely happen. but organizers of Perl confs are expert *defusers*, handling things smoothly behind the scenes and out of the blogosphere.
14:56 moritz fwiw a rakudo build with -j4 worked for me
14:56 moritz cxreg: the upcoming R* release will contain rakudo 2013.04, which doesn't have that support
14:56 moritz cxreg: and afaict the support only stretches to building with an NQP that can also build on the JVM
14:57 moritz cxreg: but I don't think rakudo can build on an NQP that was actually with the JVM, and not parrot
14:57 nwc10 cxreg: "yes", but that isn't the answer to the question that you thought you asked :-)
14:57 cxreg fair enough
14:57 isBEKaml moritz: OOC, why can't we see rakudo on nqp-jvm? Does it have any parrot-y bits ?
14:58 cxreg i didnt mean _the_ upcoming R*, just one of the next ... 6 or so
14:58 nwc10 aha, then it is the answer to the question you meant :-)
14:58 isBEKaml moritz: I thought they were restricted to nqp?
14:58 moritz isBEKaml: there are still parrot-y bits in rakudo; the abstraction that nqp offered wasn't perfect
14:58 cxreg blasphemy!
14:58 isBEKaml moritz: Ah, I see.
14:59 cxreg a port is a great way to see where those parts lie
14:59 cxreg (also, git grep ;)
14:59 sciurius left #perl6
14:59 moritz and then the second port will catch the rest :-)
14:59 PerlJam .oO( Is it weird that I read "defusers" as "def-users"?  Was that an auto-pun of sorts? )
15:01 isBEKaml PerlJam: now you're just listlessly lispy. :)
15:03 cxreg FROGGS: https://gist.github.com/cxreg/5435752
15:03 cxreg doesn't include the "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp" but .. that's huge
15:03 crab2313 joined #perl6
15:04 cxreg it looks like "5" could be the magic number since it has 4 remaining jobs
15:04 FROGGS okay...
15:04 cxreg one of which produces the missing file
15:06 kresike bye folks
15:07 FROGGS cxreg: I see that metamodel doesn't depend on the Ops... I try first to reproduce that error, in order to supply proper patches
15:12 moritz cxreg: I'll re-try with -j5
15:12 FROGGS okay, looks like rakudo is working again locally..
15:15 FROGGS spider-mario: I can't get nqp to break :/
15:16 spider-mario hm
15:16 spider-mario I’ll try again
15:17 moritz FROGGS: I agree, $(PERL6_M_PBC): should depend on $(PERL6_OPS_PBC)
15:18 FROGGS moritz: right
15:18 FROGGS spider-mario: and I think I see now what's wrong with nqp
15:18 isBEKaml heh - I can't get parrot to build on cygwin. I'm getting these weird memory errors :(
15:18 isBEKaml I'll gist it in a bit.
15:19 spider-mario hm, actually, I don’t use -j2, I use -j -l2
15:19 spider-mario (“spawn jobs until system load ≥ 2”)
15:19 spider-mario (or more like “unless”)
15:20 FROGGS https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/8193740486c6c93742bf
15:20 FROGGS at the top is the last bit of compiling+installing nqp, after that comes rakudo
15:21 alester joined #perl6
15:23 dalek rakudo/nom: ef73eb9 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
15:23 dalek rakudo/nom: Metamodel depends on Perl6::Ops
15:23 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ef73eb97ef
15:23 FROGGS spider-mario + cxreg + moritz: even my nqp-dependency error is gone now
15:24 tgt joined #perl6
15:28 isBEKaml does anyone recognise this? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5435926
15:38 gfldex isBEKaml: yes, it's the wonky fork implementation of cygwin. Reboot and try to build rakudo before you do anything else. Make sure you dont got any cygwin services running (like sshd).
15:38 gfldex isBEKaml: rebaseall can help too, but does not have to
15:40 isBEKaml gfldex: reboot as in hard reboot or just cygwin processes?
15:40 Targen joined #perl6
15:40 gfldex hard reboot, sadly
15:41 isBEKaml :/
15:41 isBEKaml okay, I'll try again after sometime.
15:42 gfldex isBEKaml: make sure you rm the old dlls before you reboot
15:43 isBEKaml gfldex: old dlls?
15:43 gfldex under rakudo/ and parrot/
15:44 isBEKaml gfldex: Oh, I usually do git clean -xdf. That should wipe everything not under git revision.
15:44 gfldex that should do
15:44 gfldex windows is not very good at removing dlls from memory, hence the need for reboots
15:46 isBEKaml here's another bit - I didn't launch any parrot/p6 process. git pull, perl Configure, make -j #BOOM
15:47 isBEKaml so I don't see how windows cached those dlls in memory.
15:47 isBEKaml unless that was done in-build.
15:47 thou joined #perl6
15:51 PerlJam http://www.ted.com/talks/john_mcwhorter_txtng_is_killing_language_jk.html
15:52 gfldex srsly?
16:00 daxim omgwtf
16:00 sjn lol.
16:01 cognominal Perl 6 is not a spoken language but someone will invent a Perl 6 SMS slang, for sure
16:03 masak PerlJam: I think about capitalization and punctuation when texting.
16:04 PerlJam I find it difficult to type "u" and "4" and "r" for "you", "for", and "are" respectively when texting.
16:05 timotimo cognominal: inspired by "like, python"?
16:05 masak PerlJam: yeah, I don't do that, or their Swedish equivalents.
16:06 masak PerlJam: this TED talk gave me a bit more sympathy for the newbies who occasionally come in here and sprinkle their conversations with "lol" at the beginning and end of their utterances.
16:06 cognominal masak, lol, ur so rite
16:06 PerlJam sympathy or empathy?
16:08 PerlJam What I discovered is that I'm doing extra work when reading lol-speak on IRC.
16:10 PerlJam I tend to ignore the markers as "garbage" and then figure out the meaning from context.   If I just recognized the "lols" as contextual cues I'd have less figuring-out to do.
16:10 xilo joined #perl6
16:12 masak hm, empathy, I guess.
16:12 masak PerlJam: yes, exactly. I'd also seen them as annoying, or a sign of immaturity.
16:13 masak but I guess they mean a bit more lol
16:13 PerlJam oddly, I never conntected lol-speak with maturity (or lack thereof)
16:14 PerlJam (but I do find it annoying sometimes :)
16:14 PerlJam Now, like spanish, I have another "language" that I can kinda understand, but have difficultly speaking.
16:17 masak :)
16:18 frdmn joined #perl6
16:30 timotimo that ted talk PerlJam linked was very enjoyable i find.
16:32 masak IRC and texting have that in common that they are both speech-as-text.
16:32 masak whereas literature and other printed stuff tends to be writing-as-text.
16:33 FROGGS joined #perl6
16:43 gtodd in a line like  @specskip.push: @csv.list.[$i][0]<<spec>> - [+] @pass[*-1], @fail[*-1], @todo[*-1], @skip[*-1];
16:43 gtodd doesn't "@pass[*-1]" just return the last element of a list/array ?
16:45 gtodd I could've sworn it worked previously but now:  Cannot use negative index -1 on Array
16:47 gtodd ... @array[*-1]   # beware of the "whatever"-star
16:47 colomon nr: my @a; say @a[*-1]
16:47 camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
16:47 camelia ..rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on Array␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:10829␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:893␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7805␤  in block  at /tmp/qHBjj2vTHV:1␤␤»
16:47 colomon nr: my @a = 1; say @a[*-1]
16:47 camelia rakudo ef73eb, niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:47 colomon just saying...
16:47 timotimo oh, interesting
16:48 timotimo it will just put 0 there and calculate -1
16:48 PerlJam gtodd: maybe use  @array[@array.end]  ?
16:49 gtodd yeah trying that  instead
16:50 PerlJam nr: my @a; say @a[@a.end];  # just checking :-)
16:50 camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
16:50 camelia ..rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on Array␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:10829␤  in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:893␤  in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7805␤  in block  at /tmp/ge_FsjaYV4:1␤␤»
16:50 PerlJam bother. :(
16:50 gtodd it must've worked previously due to some other failure on my part :-)
16:51 gtodd r: my @a = 1, 2, 3, 4 ; say @a[@a.end]
16:51 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«4␤»
16:51 gtodd r: my @a = "1, 2, 3, 4 "; say @a[@a.end]
16:51 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4 ␤»
16:51 gtodd hmm
16:51 gtodd r: my @a = '1, 2, 3, 4' ; say @a[@a.end]
16:51 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4␤»
16:51 gtodd r: my @a = q/1, 2, 3, 4/ ; say @a[@a.end]
16:51 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«1, 2, 3, 4␤»
16:52 gtodd r: my @a = (1, 2, 3, 4) ; say @a[@a.end]
16:52 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«4␤»
16:52 PerlJam gtodd: where you expecting somethign different ther?
16:52 PerlJam *there
16:52 gtodd oops was cutting and pasting like I was in the REPL :-P
16:52 gtodd sorry folks
16:53 mattp_ joined #perl6
16:53 gtodd no but I'm thinking the array is not acting like an array because of something else going on ... anyway sorry for noise ;-)
16:53 gtodd still getting used to perl6 equivalents of dumper Dump:: etc
16:54 gtodd so I just madly paste crap into a running repl :)
17:00 PerlJam gtodd: maybe you want something like  [+] map { @($_) > 0 ?? .[.end] !! Nil }, @pass, @fail, @todo
17:03 census joined #perl6
17:04 timotimo PerlJam: is (@($_) > 0) not the same as ?$_?
17:05 * timotimo tries to verify
17:05 PerlJam I lean towards explicitness sometimes.
17:05 timotimo seems so.
17:06 pmichaud r: my @a;  say @a[*-1] // Nil;
17:06 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
17:07 PerlJam oh yeah, I forgot about //
17:08 [Coke] r: /o/ ~~ "wave your hands in the air"
17:08 camelia rakudo ef73eb:  ( no output )
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17:11 PerlJam (I'd still use map rather than repeating // Nil though)
17:14 pmichaud +@pass && [+] @pass[*-1], @fail[*-1], @todo[*-1], @skip[*-1]
17:14 pmichaud unless the arrays can be of different sizes, in which case each needs checking I suppose.
17:17 PerlJam aye.  I dunno.
17:18 PerlJam (But if they're all the same size and empty, how did *that* situation arise)
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17:43 masak I wonder if @array.end shouldn't return Failure instead of -1 when @array is empty?
17:47 masak I mean, it's the only case where asking for the last element doesn't make sense.
17:47 timotimo masak: when indexing with a failure, a new failure is created?
17:47 masak no, when using a failure in any way, it closes the trap and turns into an exception.
17:48 masak so the end result would be the same, but with possibly a better error message.
17:48 masak the "using -1 as an index" one feels like a bit of a red herring.
17:48 masak and I'm thinking "dude, *you* brought up -1!"
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17:52 PerlJam masak: I'm inclined to agree, but only if it actually *does* give a better error message  :)
17:57 cognominal y'a encore des gens qui fréquentent perlmonks ici?
17:57 cognominal à part BooK?
17:57 masak cognominal: je fréquent perlmonks. :)
17:58 masak cognominal: just not that... frequently. :P
17:58 cognominal oops
17:58 cognominal wrong channel again
17:58 * masak .oO( mauvaise fenêtre )
17:59 census joined #perl6
17:59 PerlJam btw, am I the only one who is bothered by .end?  It gives you an index of the last element in the array when most times, you actually want the last item.
18:00 PerlJam you can still infer an index from .elems since arrays are all zero-based.
18:00 masak PerlJam: aye.
18:01 * moritz almost never uses .end, becuase when he wants the indexes, it's usually as @array.keys
18:01 masak PerlJam: (as in "yes, I'm bothered")
18:01 masak PerlJam: I *implemented* .end, before I know properly what it did. and I implemented it as "gimme the last element".
18:01 masak PerlJam: had to go back and re-do it. :)
18:02 masak PerlJam: I think .end is there simply because we don't have $#array any more, and we "needed" some syntax to cover up for it.
18:03 PerlJam It's also weird that it's the only method that talks about a specific index.  Why not also .mid so that we can better binarily search too?
18:03 masak and .beg so we can abstrac away from 0 :P
18:03 PerlJam (okay, that's just crazy, but so is .end :)
18:04 masak abstract*
18:04 masak yes, I could easily axe .end and I think some code would break, but overall not many would care.
18:13 xilo joined #perl6
18:21 pmichaud .mid is   */2  :-P
18:21 PerlJam then .beg should clearly be *-*
18:22 timotimo more like $^a - $^a
18:22 baest joined #perl6
18:23 timotimo but that kind of simplifies to **0 immediately
18:23 timotimo or is there actually a two-argument form of the indexing fucntion?
18:23 * colomon hopes not
18:24 masak no.
18:24 masak S09 says you can index (specially declared) arrays as @array{-7} etc.
18:24 masak having a different starting index than 0.
18:24 timotimo ah
18:25 PerlJam But we don't yet live in a world of shaped arrays.
18:25 masak but I don't think that would ever reflect on the *actual* indexes, and thus not on .end either.
18:25 pmichaud yes, the indexing function can have multiple arguments.
18:25 pmichaud at least as implemented in rakudo.
18:25 masak oh, right. with shaped arrays, it can.
18:25 pmichaud r: my @a = <a b c d>;  say @a[*-*];
18:25 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«a␤»
18:26 masak oh, we're talking about arguments at different levels :)
18:26 pmichaud multi method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(\SELF: Callable $block) is rw {
18:26 pmichaud SELF[$block(|(SELF.elems xx $block.count))]
18:26 pmichaud }
18:27 PerlJam masak: too bad you're not *arguing* about arguments at different levels.   ;)
18:27 timotimo ah, ok, one per dimension?
18:27 timotimo oh, huh
18:27 timotimo it just gives the same argument every time
18:28 [Coke] r: my @a = <a b c d>;  say @a[*-*-*+*+**0]
18:28 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�HyperWhatever (**) not yet implemented. Sorry. �at /tmp/IrxsdrVLVr:1�------> [32mmy @a = <a b c d>;  say @a[*-*-*+*+**[33m�[31m0][0m�»
18:28 timotimo i bet a fast path for $block.count == 1 would make this 1000 times faster
18:28 [Coke] r: my @a = <a b c d>;  say @a[*-*-*+*+0]
18:28 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«a␤»
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18:41 masak PerlJam: :P
18:49 jnthn Good evening, #perl6
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: faf3c2e | coke++ | / (4 files):
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/faf3c2e152
18:49 colomon o/
18:54 masak jnthn! \o/
18:55 jnthn masak! \o/
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19:12 nwc10 good pm, jnthn
19:20 sorear yo.
19:21 jnthn Gee, teaching all day then walking 6km leaves one a little tired :)
19:24 masak oh, you walked into town and back?
19:24 census 6km!
19:24 census jnthn: what were you teaching, if i may ask? :)
19:25 * masak .oO( long-distance walking )
19:25 pupoque joined #perl6
19:25 jnthn 6km isn't long distance :P
19:26 jnthn census: The .Net MVC framework this time.
19:31 census oh wow.  no 6km isn't *long* if you are running, driving, or even bikin!
19:31 census sounds like a valuable class!
19:31 jnthn Well, I actually did 3km, ate dinner, then 3km back :)
19:31 jnthn I don't mind in the slightest 'cus the walk is mostly by the sea. :)
19:32 pupoque_ joined #perl6
19:32 * masak grew up near there
19:32 masak kinda pretty.
19:33 masak well, the sea is. the petrochemical industry is so-so :P
19:34 jnthn Yeah, it seems nice overall
19:34 jnthn I heard the story about the bridge that fell down 30 years ago too.
19:34 jnthn They told me as we were driving over it to go for lunch :P
19:35 masak that was the year before I was born. so, like, 32 years ago.
19:36 jnthn Yeah, I think they qualified it with "about" :)
19:36 masak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tj%C3%B6rn_Bridge
19:36 jnthn Anyway, apparently driving huge boats into bridges is, like, a bad idea.
19:36 masak bloody... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulk_Star_Clipper.jpg
19:37 jnthn Oops.
19:38 tangentstorm joined #perl6
19:38 masak built here in Malmö.
19:40 FROGGS "Kollisionen fick ödesdigra[...]"
19:41 jnthn FROGGS: fick doesn't mean the same in Swedish :P
19:41 masak "The collision had disastrous[...]"
19:41 FROGGS there was a "huh?!"-moment when looking at all these nice words :o)
19:41 masak oh, but you're German. yes, that would be "huh?!"-producing :)
19:42 jnthn I remember once of my first times in Sweden I saw a product called "ficklampa" and I was like...the Swedes have special lights for *what*?!
19:42 masak we probably do, but that's beside the point.
19:42 jnthn Dude... :P
19:42 FROGGS you both know that swedish sounds (and looks) kinda funny somehow? just cant explain why :/
19:42 masak aaaaanyway
19:42 FROGGS hehe
19:43 rindolf joined #perl6
19:43 FROGGS do you know if the ikea productnames in germany are just made up for germans, or are these serious names?
19:44 nwc10 serious or not, I thought that they used the same names everywhere
19:44 FROGGS like a chair is called bekväm
19:44 BenGoldberg .tell jnthn Don't forget to change the README for rakudo, so people know that the jvm is now supported :)
19:44 yoleaux BenGoldberg: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
19:44 FROGGS nwc10: well, that would explain it too
19:45 FROGGS ohh, "Stille Post"
19:45 jnthn BenGoldberg: I will then Rakudo actually supports JVM ;)
19:45 yoleaux 19:44Z <BenGoldberg> jnthn: Don't forget to change the README for rakudo, so people know that the jvm is now supported :)
19:45 BenGoldberg :)
19:45 jnthn BenGoldberg: It's NQP that supports it and I noted so in its REAMDE yesterday :)
19:45 nwc10 jnthn: are there any identified low hanging fruit yet?
19:45 jnthn nwc10: Fixing the NQP README to say how to build the JVM version :P
19:45 jnthn Rather than that it just exists. :)
19:46 masak FROGGS: "bekväm" is Swedish. it means "comfortable".
19:46 jnthn Others are adding the missing bigint ops and adding the missing IO ops :)
19:46 masak FROGGS: and that's a name I'd expect to see in IKEA in Sweden, too.
19:46 FROGGS masak: ya, same in german
19:47 masak oh!
19:47 jnthn Bah, what a boring word for comfortable :)
19:47 masak FROGGS: you probably borrowed the word from us :P
19:47 FROGGS bequem in german
19:47 FROGGS masak: NO WAY!
19:47 FROGGS :o)
19:47 masak ...and spelled it weirdly. :P
19:47 FROGGS hehe
19:47 FROGGS no, you dont get it, it is the other way around *g*
19:48 masak O RLY?
19:48 jnthn My favorite word for comfortable so far is "pohodlný" :)
19:48 FROGGS (pssst, I no you were joking)
19:49 FROGGS jnthn: hmmm, my guess was it meant something else
19:49 FROGGS more like beeing bamboozled
19:49 FROGGS "... by all these buttons and nobs"
19:49 * masak .oO( buttons and noobs )
19:50 * FROGGS .oO( ... my finger is on that n00b? )
19:52 snearch joined #perl6
19:56 [Coke] Tries to cram some more regex fun into this .java file.
19:57 FROGGS jnthn: if I have two blocks using the same slang like: "{ use v5 }; { use v5 }", should reblessing the LANG be enough to make it work? currently it does not, and I don't know if I need to do more then reblessing or not
19:58 jnthn You rebless things inside the %*LANG, I guess?
19:59 FROGGS %*LANG<MAIN>, yes
19:59 swarley-freenode joined #perl6
20:00 FROGGS the second block is executed as Perl6, same goes for perl5 modules I 'use' from v5 blocks
20:01 FROGGS for the 'use'-case I already pass around the :from<perl5> adverb, which currently just does the same as doing 'use Perl5' at the beginning of the included script
20:03 jnthn Hmm
20:04 FROGGS maybe a slang has to provide a callback which has to be called right before every new slang block... I'm just curious what is missing to make a second slang block work, and what to put in an potentional callback
20:06 pmichaud yes, I've noticed a few places where people are taking the NQP-jvm announcement to mean that Rakudo now runs on the JVM.  :-/
20:06 FROGGS pmichaud: that is just because they are so exited...
20:06 jnthn pmichaud: Which announcement? :-/
20:07 pmichaud http://perlweekly.com/latest.html   for one.
20:07 pmichaud Another huge step with Jonathan Worthington. NQP (Not Quite Perl) is basically the core that Rakudo, the Perl 6 compiler is built on. (Minus a few areas where I think it still depends directly on Parrot.) Having NQP on the JVM means a large part of Rakudo can already work on the JVM.
20:08 jnthn Well. I can't do much about people not reading what I write properly when they summarize it :/
20:08 pmichaud we also had someone earlier asking for instructions for building Rakudo for the jvm.
20:08 masak :(
20:09 [Coke] just need to make jnthn work faster! ;)
20:09 FROGGS hehe
20:09 pmichaud well, and others :)
20:09 jnthn I know! I won't write blog posts for people to mis-summarize! :P
20:09 [Coke] GAH!
20:09 [Coke] wrong takeaway!
20:09 jnthn ;)
20:09 flussence .oO( use CORE:from<next tuesday> )
20:10 pmichaud if we don't expect the May release to run on jvm, perhaps we should announce a "safe" date when it will.
20:10 FROGGS well, publicity is actually a good thing, now someone just has to make a good post... (I'm not a good writer though)
20:10 [Coke] I tried to build
20:10 [Coke] (nevermind)
20:10 pupoque joined #perl6
20:11 pmichaud as a strawman example, we could say we expect rakudo on the jvm in the 2013.08 release.  If parts start appearing before then, no problem. :)
20:11 pmichaud anyway, it's just an idea.
20:12 [Coke] Eh. Given the very low bus number at this point, I'd be hesitant to promise anything.
20:12 pmichaud that's reasonable, too.
20:13 pmichaud I'm just thinking it's better to say when to expect it rather than have people constantly saying "it'll be here in the next release" or asking the question.
20:13 pmichaud but I'm fine with not saying anything, too.
20:14 [Coke] I think a reasonable fallback is we tell them the same thing they ask about when "rakudo will be done"
20:14 nwc10 can you say something like "we don't expect it to be ready for at least the next 3 monthly releases"
20:14 nwc10 or maybe "2"
20:14 nwc10 and not change "2" to "1" until it's more likely to be "0"
20:14 [Coke] Sure, that seems reasonable.
20:14 pmichaud we could say that, but I know that people will translate that to be "Rakudo will be released in July"
20:14 [Coke] nwc10++
20:14 pmichaud sorry, Rakudo-jvm
20:14 [Coke] True.
20:15 [Coke] but clearly, people can't read. What are we optimizing for?
20:15 spider-mario that would be nice, though
20:15 pmichaud [Coke]: the ones that can.
20:15 spider-mario to have Rakujo released in a month beginning with J
20:15 nwc10 pmichaud: yes, but it's less dangerous than explicitly picking a "safe" month
20:15 nwc10 s/3/several/
20:15 pmichaud sure, there are a lot of folks that can't read.  but I'm not sure we want to combate disinformation with silence.
20:16 pmichaud *combat
20:16 nwc10 to avoid being pinned down on the number
20:16 jnthn It's probably going to be more of a staged thing
20:16 telex joined #perl6
20:16 jnthn "It can do hello world!" "It can pass a bunch of spectests!" "It passes most spectests" "You can install a bunch of modules and use them on it"
20:17 diakopter "It poops diamonds"
20:17 jnthn diakopter: The spec defers that to post-6.0.0, sorry :P
20:17 pmichaud "It causes unicorns to appear in your Dec 25 stockings"
20:17 spider-mario “it runs faster than on Parrot”
20:17 pmichaud spider-mario: that one I won't claim until we have a bunch of modules running on rakudo-jvm
20:18 spider-mario and until it does run faster, I guess. :p
20:18 pmichaud until then, speed comparisons are speculative at best, and probably best avoided.
20:18 diakopter s/faster than/compared to/
20:18 spider-mario well, it does need to run in the first place in order to run faster.
20:21 jnthn It's also worth noting that my focus has been on "make it run" over "optimize everything I'm putting in loads as I do it"
20:23 lichtkind jnthn: na zdravi
20:24 jnthn lichtkind: dobry vecer...ako sa mas?
20:24 lichtkind skvele :)
20:25 jnthn :)
20:25 lichtkind jnthn: just wrote the perl 6 update so less annoing questions in the next year :)
20:26 jnthn :)
20:26 jnthn Nice
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20:36 dalek ecosystem: 4d1525c | (David Warring)++ | META.list:
20:36 dalek ecosystem: Added CSS-Language; moved CSS-Grammar
20:36 dalek ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/4d1525c1b6
20:40 FROGGS jnthn: about "make it run": http://de.webfail.com/2d891ddaad4
20:40 FROGGS :P
20:40 FROGGS >.<
20:43 jnthn :P
20:45 woolfy left #perl6
20:45 japhb_ .tell timotimo re: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-04-22#i_6733138 you might be able to co-opt some of the logic perl6-bench uses to build multiple versions of each compiler.  It puts special effort into keeping only *one* network-updated clone of each repo (rakudo, nqp, parrot, etc.), and doing carefully-handled local clones to make it really fast to create and build a new, independent rakudo that can coexist with the others.
20:45 yoleaux japhb_: I'll pass your message to timotimo.
20:49 MrMeek-afk joined #perl6
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20:58 masak http://de.webfail.com/2d891ddaad4 counts as an autopun, I think.
20:59 masak it just has a negative determinant, which sometimes happens.
20:59 drbean joined #perl6
20:59 FROGGS ohh, I'd buy it anyway
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21:31 [Coke] what is the phrase for teaching a simplified/old version of something first as a foundation before teaching the more correct but complicated version?
21:32 jnthn lying? pedagogical falicitation? :)
21:33 masak [Coke]: lies-to-children.
21:34 masak that's Terry Pratchett's name for it, at least.
21:34 masak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children
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21:44 jnthn sleep &
21:44 FROGGS gnight
21:45 cognominal [Coke] white lie?
21:46 cognominal hum, apparently white lies are not about pedagogy but about tact
21:47 census good night!
21:47 census cognominal: according to .. ?
21:47 lue [Coke]: "It's magic." / "Which we will get to in later courses"
21:48 cognominal census :  http://www.thefreedictionary.com/White+lies
21:49 timotimo japhb_: the benchmark framework seems like a good fit. i'll investigate that (some time)
21:49 drbean joined #perl6
21:50 FROGGS timotimo: you should have said: "[...](some time, but not long)" :o)
21:51 timotimo long is relative
21:51 timotimo i will probably do it before i die. or not at all. either of those.
21:52 FROGGS hehe, it would just fit to what benchmarks are about
21:52 FROGGS nvm :o)
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22:04 [Coke] masak: danke.
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22:37 masak 'night, #perl6
22:37 japhb_ o/
22:40 FROGGS gnight all
22:42 census gnight FROGGS!
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23:04 cognominal rn: class A { has $a }; my $a= A.new; $a.a("toto"); say $a.a
23:05 camelia rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«No such method 'a' for invocant of type 'A'␤  in block  at /tmp/WSB4yqKm62:1␤␤»
23:05 camelia ..niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method a in type A␤  at /tmp/7fAJoqoD_L line 1 (mainline @ 7) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4299 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4300 (module-CORE @ 583) ␤  at /home/p6eval…
23:05 cognominal rn: class A { has $a }; my $a= A.new; $a.a ="toto"; say $a.a
23:05 camelia niecza v24-37-gf9c8fc2: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method a in type A␤  at /tmp/xHS2WM7FIn line 1 (mainline @ 7) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4299 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4300 (module-CORE @ 583) ␤  at /home/p6eval…
23:05 camelia ..rakudo ef73eb: OUTPUT«No such method 'a' for invocant of type 'A'␤  in block  at /tmp/TtexiT5nKn:1␤␤»
23:06 cognominal ho, I forgot the dot
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23:38 dalek tablets: a000395 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (2 files):
23:38 dalek tablets: added FALLBACK method to A
23:38 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/a000395522
23:46 dalek tablets: b41f499 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
23:46 dalek tablets: conjugate -> conj
23:46 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/b41f499dcf
23:46 dalek tablets: 415319d | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
23:46 dalek tablets: add p5 equiv pf compiler hint var
23:46 dalek tablets: review: https://github.com/perl6/tablets/commit/415319dff5
23:47 grondilu joined #perl6
23:47 grondilu Hello.  An interesting article about an open cheap supercomputer small architecture project:  http://phys.org/news/2013-04-adapteva-parallel-boards-summer.html
23:48 Targen joined #perl6
23:49 grondilu considering perl6 is supposed to have lots of features for parallel processing, I thought it might be relevant here.
23:56 lichtkind grondilu: i wish that would be true :)
23:56 lichtkind yes they are some
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