Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-07-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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01:04 TimToady Gloria sez: "WAT has to be the opposite of DWIM, so if that is Do What I Mean, the other must be What Actually Transpires."
01:04 colomon Gloria++
01:07 colomon or should it be Wat Actually Transpires?
01:13 skids I thought it was "Weapon Aimed at Toe"
01:20 timotimo that's cool :D
01:20 timotimo but more like WAAT :3
01:21 mst TimToady: but but Wat is a small operative lisp in the style of kernel invented by Manuel Simoni, which now has javascript, perl and python interpreters
01:21 skids "Weapon Aimed Toe-ward"?
01:21 mst TimToady: I should know, I wrote the perl one :)
01:21 mst (yes, you can write javascript in perl :)
01:22 mst of course, it being an operative lisp with delimited continuations, 'weapon aimed at toe' isn't a bad description of it if you aren't careful
01:22 mst runtime macros + continuations -> you too can write code that's dead slow -and- impossible to debug
01:24 TimToady we want to make that possible in Perl 6 too :)
01:24 TimToady though perhaps not likely
01:26 mst operatives are -really- interesting though
01:27 mst being able to get your arguments as unevaluated expressions makes a lot of things possible
01:27 timotimo is that like what we were thinking "is thunk" would be like?
01:30 timotimo i have a "use case" for introspecting the code "* %% 10" in "sub foo($a where * %% 10)" - will perl6 let me do that at some point in the future?
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01:49 TimToady well, in some sense, everything's a macro at some point, just most things degenerate to "normal" evaluation
01:53 * colomon is watching Dune for the first time, and Duke Leto was just mentioned.  ;)
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01:57 colomon "Wow, this just got really weird."  -- Jen, also watching Dune for the first time
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02:18 TimToady if this is the movie, you should also watch the miniseries, which is...differently better
02:19 skids one of SyFy's better endeavors, yes.
02:19 TimToady and overall better than the movie, in many people's estimations
02:19 colomon movie, yes
02:20 colomon I've never read the book, either… started one of the later books in the series, was not impressed and quit.
02:20 TimToady ah, well, the earlier books are much better
02:20 TimToady unfortunately, starts going downhill at about the end of the third book
02:21 colomon might just have not understood what was going on… those were the days when books were hard to come by.  :)
02:21 skids Back when I read something other than tech manuals, read most of that series.  Very enjoyable.
02:21 geekosaur first time I read it, I skipped the second book entirely. (being 9, and _Dune Messiah_ being mostly Imperial politics, I was somewhat less than interested)
02:21 TimToady well, that's maybe not as bad as I did, reading the 5th book of the Amber series first O_O
02:21 [Coke] what would the advantage of "is readonly" be over a constant?
02:22 * colomon remembers trying to interlibrary loan the Elric books, and getting some other random Moorcock book from them instead.
02:22 TimToady the first Dune is well worth reading
02:22 colomon TimToady: I think I read Amber in the order 1 (long pause) 5 (long pause) 1..5 quickly.
02:22 [Coke] TimToady++ the frist one is quite good.
02:23 colomon Got me very confused about the fate of the different family members.
02:24 geekosaur (I would recommend just pretending everything after the third Dune book doesn't exist)
02:25 TimToady me 2
02:31 dalek perl6-roast-data: 05fed6c | coke++ | / (5 files):
02:31 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
02:31 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/05fed6c313
03:03 timotimo is javac version 1.7.0_25 too old to build nqp-jvm?
03:03 colomon I'm using 1.7.0_04
03:04 colomon (which I'm presuming is older)
03:04 timotimo huh. strange.
03:04 timotimo first i'm getting warnings about _ perhaps going away in a future release
03:04 timotimo then i get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsupportedClassVersionError: org/perl6/nqp/runtime/CompilationUnit : Unsupported major.minor version 52.0
03:04 timotimo could that be because i copied the whole folder over? but i did make clean ..
03:05 timotimo git clean -xf didn't get rid of the problem i fear
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04:48 TimToady masak: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-07-28#i_7379060 STD has already pulled feeds back out from the precedence table into a feed_separator category
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05:08 TimToady diakopter: I dunno where you're getting your definition of 'thunk' from, but mine comes from the original Algol definition as an implementation strategy for call-by-name
05:09 TimToady looks like the term has since been "modernized" to fit into several other schemes as well :)
05:11 TimToady the business of it being a parasite on its original lexical scope only matters because we allow declarations inside of expressions; otherwise it's simply an argumentless closure
05:11 lizmat good *, #perl6!
05:11 TimToady so that by necessity any bindings refer to that outer lexical scope just as they would in a normal closure
05:22 dalek rakudo/nom: 1f026d9 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
05:22 dalek rakudo/nom: Match trait error message to already existing spectest
05:22 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1f026d9a5f
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05:32 TimToady regarding 'is readonly', we replaced that with '::=' binding
05:33 TimToady lizmat: ^^
05:33 lizmat :-)
05:33 TimToady meaning bind it readonly just as we do paramters
05:34 lizmat r: my $a =42; my $b ::= $a; $b = 3; say $a # except that is not implemented yet
05:34 camelia rakudo d5523b: OUTPUT«3␤»
05:34 lizmat :-(
05:35 TimToady oh, it's implement, just wrong :)
05:35 TimToady *mented
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05:39 lue .oO(my $a = 42; my $b is rw ::= $a; $b = 3; say $a)
05:41 TimToady lizmat: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-07-28#i_7381240 does not look like a rakudobug to me; the initial assignment to the my happens at run time despite the useless use of BEGIN; you'd have to say 'BEGIN my $a = 5;' to get it assigned at compile time
05:41 TimToady this is also why 'state' is defined as 'once my $x =' rather than 'my $x = once'
05:42 TimToady phasers are not retroactive :)
05:44 lizmat TimToday: I guess that was a small WAT for a big DWIM  :-)
05:45 lizmat lue: "is rw" on variables is gone too
05:45 diakopter WHEW
05:45 lue But... how else am I supposed to make a variable bound with ::= writeable‽‽‽
05:46 TimToady [Coke]: readonly variables can be set each time through to something different, just as "readonly" parameters can represent something different each time; a constant can't change after compilation
05:52 lue .oO(It's not like there's a rw version of ::= or anything.)
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05:55 lizmat hmmm… it appears that the Routine:D, |c fallback trait is shadowing the Mu:D, :$docs trait
05:56 lizmat in the case of "sub a is docs"
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06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: c810036 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/traits.pm:
06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Hopefully temporary fix for Mu:D :docs caught by Routine:D |c snafu
06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c810036333
06:19 * ingy waves o/
06:19 lizmat o/ ingy!
06:19 ingy :)
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06:25 dalek roast: 8462413 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S06-traits/misc.t:
06:25 dalek roast: Unfudge now passing trait mod test
06:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8462413311
06:25 dalek roast: 0650e78 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S14-traits/routines.t:
06:25 dalek roast: Fudge now failing test, correct another for current error message format
06:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0650e78c93
06:36 dalek roast: 8922597 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S14-traits/routines.t:
06:36 dalek roast: Fix test by limiting to Routine, rather than anything
06:36 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/892259789f
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06:41 lizmat breakfast&
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07:17 masak mornin', #perl6
07:18 lizmat morning masak!
07:18 masak Gloria++ # What Actually Transpires
07:18 masak ...and you can say that with a '!?' inflection, and it'll be an excellent expansion of the normal usage of WAT as an interjection :P
07:23 lizmat WAT!?
07:23 lizmat :-)
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07:26 masak [backlog] TimToady: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-07-29#i_7382191 -- well, I'm thinking about this a lot, because macros/D3 talks about allowing exactly that for macro arguments (through COMPILER:: and other means). i.e. turning a macro argument from a closure into a thunk, which can leak variables back and forth.
07:27 masak (by which I mean to say that "we allow declarations inside of expressions" might have been the only reason the parasite-hood of thunks matters. but it stops being the only reason once one considers macro arguments.)
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07:34 TimToady troo
07:36 FROGGS morning o/
07:37 lizmat morning FROGGS!
07:38 lizmat Q: what is the opposite of nqp::p6list ?
07:38 * FROGGS needs to recover a bit from $weekend at $work
07:38 lizmat aka, get the underlying RPA from an Array
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07:39 * FROGGS has no idea
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07:39 lizmat too bad  :-(
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07:47 arcterus lizmat: how about nqp::getattr($list, List, '$!items')
07:53 lizmat (testing, looking good so far)
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08:11 mathw o/
08:12 lizmat r: my @a; push @a, [1,2]; my $b := nqp::getattr( nqp::decont(@a), List, '$!items'); nqp::push( $b, [5,6] ); say @a.perl # works if there is something in @a
08:12 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«Array.new([1, 2], [5, 6])␤»
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09:16 crab2313 cd /moa
09:16 yoleaux 25 Jul 2013 11:33Z <FROGGS> crab2313: this might fix your issue: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/351339dfdc
09:17 crab2313 sorry.
09:17 crab2313 typo
09:17 FROGGS np, :o)
09:17 crab2313 jnthn++
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09:27 pmurias /connect irc.perl.org
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10:27 colomon pandabrew broke overnight?
10:30 tadzik did it work before? :|
10:31 colomon I've been using it as part of my smoke tester since a bit before YAPC::NA.  Last night was the first time it didn't work.
10:33 lizmat how did it break?  Did I break it?
10:48 lizmat r: my Int @a; @a.push: "a"; say @a   # rakudobug
10:48 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«a␤»
10:48 lizmat r: my Int @a; @a[@a.end] ="a"; say @a
10:48 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -1 on Array+{TypedArray}␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:11058␤  in any  at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2663␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2651␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:946␤  in block  at …
10:48 lizmat r: my Int @a; @a[@a.eelems] ="a"; say @a
10:48 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«No such method 'eelems' for invocant of type 'Array+{TypedArray}'␤  in block  at /tmp/fBBdywBRLX:1␤␤»
10:49 lizmat r: my Int @a; @a[@a.elems] ="a"; say @a
10:49 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/6VsTyW_b_X:1␤␤»
10:49 lizmat apparently .push is not doing a typecheck
10:49 lizmat r: my Int @a; @a.unshift: "a"; say @a   # rakudobug
10:49 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«a␤»
10:49 lizmat and nor is unshift
10:50 * lizmat submits rakudonug
10:52 sjn should shifting/pushing/etc. really do type checking?
10:53 lizmat and why not?
10:53 moritz it needs to, otherwise one can never be sure that an Array[Blah] only holds Blah objects
10:53 yoleaux 28 Jul 2013 22:52Z <lizmat> moritz: wrt to $*W and $/ in Perl6 world: maybe we should add $*W and $/ to the trait mod signature?
10:53 lizmat indeed
10:54 moritz and then the whole point becomes moot
10:54 moritz "we give you a typed array, but beware that under some conditions it can contain objects of other types". WAT?
10:55 lizmat well, I guess we have a case of WAT on our hands now
10:56 * lizmat adds some TODO tests
10:57 colomon lizmat, tadzik: https://gist.github.com/colomon/6103588 # sorry for slow response, pandabrew error message
10:58 lizmat ok, I fixed that one early this morning with  https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c810036333
10:58 lizmat sorry for the noise
11:00 colomon okay, smoke_test relaunched by hand.
11:00 colomon lizmat++
11:06 dalek roast: 08e6adb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-array/ (2 files):
11:06 dalek roast: Add type check TODO tests for .push and .unshift
11:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/08e6adbdb2
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11:09 tadzik uh. wat
11:09 lizmat no: uh, WAT!?
11:09 masak W.A.T.
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11:10 lizmat .oO( still waiting in anxiety for tadzik's WAT )
11:11 tadzik WAT
11:11 * tadzik bows
11:12 tadzik lizmat: re the new ticket, I don't think we handle typed arrays atm at all
11:12 tadzik that was a blocker on JSON::Unmarshal too
11:12 jercos So I can't have array of Sunlight?
11:13 lizmat r: my Int @a; @a[0]="a"
11:13 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$v'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/nHUK3t43Yc:1␤␤»
11:13 tadzik oh
11:13 lizmat tadzik: that's handling it, no?
11:13 tadzik :>
11:13 tadzik it is
11:13 tadzik r: my Int @a; say @a.WHAT
11:13 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«(Array+{TypedArray})␤»
11:13 tadzik r: my Int @a; say @a.of
11:13 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
11:13 lizmat r: my Int @a; say @a.perl
11:13 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«Array[Int].new()␤»
11:13 tadzik :o
11:13 tadzik is that new?
11:14 tadzik or am I that old
11:14 lizmat did that the past weeks or so
11:14 tadzik ah, that explains it :)
11:14 tadzik lizmat++
11:14 lizmat I mean, the .perl on the typed array
11:14 tadzik I can now make JSON::Unmarshal make sense
11:14 lizmat the underlying functionality was there already
11:15 lizmat my Int $a is default(42); say $a; $a=23; say $a; $a=Nil; say $a  # also works
11:15 lizmat r: my Int $a is default(42); say $a; $a=23; say $a; $a=Nil; say $a  # also works
11:15 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«42␤23␤42␤»
11:15 lizmat lunch&
11:26 masak r: subset OddInt of Int where { +$_ % 2 }; my OddInt $o; say +$o
11:26 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type OddInt in numeric context  in block  at /tmp/vE3ReslfmC:1␤␤0␤»
11:26 masak r: subset OddInt of Int is default(1) where { +$_ % 2 }
11:26 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�'OddInt' cannot inherit from 'default' because it is unknown.�at /tmp/yPM29CGDlW:1�------> �»
11:26 * masak thinks it'd be nice if that worked (and were spec'd)
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11:45 lizmat masak: but that would be a special case of "is" on a class, right ?
11:45 lizmat r: subset OddInt of Int where { +$_ % 2 }; my OddInt $o is default(1); say $o
11:45 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:46 lizmat is default only works on variables (at the moment, anyway)
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11:47 lizmat r: my Int $a is default("foo"); say $a
11:47 camelia rakudo c81003: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'�at /tmp/8RnV7MvDBr:1�------> �»
11:47 lizmat *phew*
11:48 lizmat I guess we could improve on that message
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: f8e970b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Reimplement List.push using nqp::push()
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom:
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: The old way was most definitely not thread safe: this way, we have one less
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: place to look out for thread safety.
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f8e970b1b9
11:54 lizmat .tell jnthn spectests are clean on https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f8e970b1b9 , I can hardly believe it
11:54 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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12:05 moritz lizmat: can you please run   my @a; @a.push: 1; @a[0] = 42; say @a   after this patch?
12:06 lizmat $ perl6 -e ' my @a; @a.push: 1; @a[0] = 42; say @a '
12:06 lizmat 42
12:07 dalek Perlito: d378d10 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (4 files):
12:07 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - code cleanup
12:07 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/Perlito/commit/d378d10971
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12:08 lizmat moritz: are you suspecting a problem that wasn't caught by the spectests?
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12:12 moritz lizmat: yes. I don't understand where your patch takes care that it's always containers that are pushed with Array.push
12:12 lizmat I assume it's nqp::push doing that
12:13 lizmat like nqp::unshift apparently also does (as .unshift was already implemented in terms of nqp::unshift)
12:13 moritz that would be very odd
12:13 moritz maybe it's .shift
12:14 lizmat now that I have you on the horn: what is "nqp::p6listitems(self);" supposed to do?
12:15 moritz it returns a low-level array with all the items in self, I think
12:15 lizmat it's not equivalent to "nqp::bindattr( self, List, '$!items', nqp::list() ) if $elems == 0;" ?
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12:20 moritz certainly not
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12:20 moritz it reads from self, it doesn't write to it
12:21 lizmat what use is then calliing it in sink context ?
12:22 lizmat (which is what List.unshift does)
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12:33 lizmat moritz: fwiw, nqp::p6listitems(self) seems to be exactly what I need to have it create the storage for an empty list
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12:34 dalek rakudo/nom: 34131db | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
12:34 dalek rakudo/nom: Tweaks in List.unshift / List.push
12:34 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/34131dbf67
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12:37 dalek rakudo/nom: 923fe34 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
12:37 dalek rakudo/nom: Moved List.(un)shift so that similar functionality is closer in the source
12:37 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/923fe34a3a
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12:58 [Coke] LHF: Someone could go through https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/blob/master/log/test-modules.log and open bug reports (or pull requests) for the various failing modules.
12:59 lizmat r: my Int @a=<foo bar>; say @a  # yikes!
12:59 camelia rakudo f8e970: OUTPUT«foo bar␤»
13:02 * masak submits rakudobug
13:04 masak compile-time checks and constant folding seem very tangled together in cases such as these.
13:04 moritz I'm pretty sure you get the same error without the opimizier
13:04 masak one is "is this even possible to do (and is it possible to find out statically?", the other is "let's just do this statically"
13:05 moritz constant folding calls the same code as would be called at run time
13:05 moritz the problem is different here, IMHO
13:05 masak moritz: what error? there wasn't an error.
13:05 masak that's the bug... :)
13:05 moritz erm, same non-error
13:05 masak oh, fershure.
13:06 masak I was just reflecting in general about the closeness of the two processes.
13:06 masak it interests me that they are tangled. it seems to be an essential neg-separation.
13:07 masak r: my Int @a; @a = <foo bar>; say @a
13:07 camelia rakudo f8e970: OUTPUT«foo bar␤»
13:07 masak r: my Int @a; @a = Nil; @a.push: $_ for <foo bar>; say @a
13:07 camelia rakudo f8e970: OUTPUT«foo bar␤»
13:08 moritz masak: the real problem here is that typed arrays don't replace some low-level store operation that all high-level writing operations use
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13:08 moritz masak: but instead it aims to re-implement all high-level writing operations, and several of them were forgotton, it seems
13:08 lizmat r: my @a = <foo bar baz>; my Int @b= @a; say @b # more forgetfulness
13:08 camelia rakudo f8e970: OUTPUT«foo bar baz␤»
13:08 lizmat r: my Int $a="foo"
13:08 camelia rakudo f8e970: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/I_tdNQav7C:1␤␤»
13:09 lizmat *phew*
13:09 masak moritz: from my viewpoint as an architect, it feels like we've neglected to put in an "invariant check" early on, and now it's coming back to bite us repeatedly.
13:09 masak "or right, we totally forgot about that code path, too!"
13:09 masak oh*
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13:32 dalek rakudo/nom: 72b1b02 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
13:32 dalek rakudo/nom: Add type checks for List.push and List.unshift
13:32 dalek rakudo/nom:
13:32 dalek rakudo/nom: These should probably be done at a lower level, but for now we're at least
13:32 dalek rakudo/nom: according to spec.
13:32 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/72b1b028a4
13:36 matthias__ hi, I am curious if something like «{ my $OUTER::x = 2 }; say $x» is going to work?
13:36 moritz masak: a huge problem is that lists and arrays really, really need to be fast, so we don't want another layer of indirection anywhere
13:36 moritz matthias__: no, you won't be able to declare variables for an outer scope. That's a feature.
13:36 matthias__ ok thank you moritz
13:37 diakopter moritz: well, it could be argued that they're going to be really slow no matter what until an awesome optimizer appears
13:37 yoleaux 08:36Z <FROGGS> diakopter: can you fix it please? I'm not so sure what to do: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/moarvm/2013-07-28#i_7378950  and  http://irclog.perlgeek.de/moarvm/2013-07-28#i_7378959
13:37 yoleaux 08:58Z <FROGGS> diakopter: nvm, everything is good :o)
13:37 diakopter FROGGS: fix it yourself!
13:37 diakopter FROGGS: oh wait, you did.. ;)(
13:37 diakopter ;)
13:37 FROGGS hehe
13:37 FROGGS well, yes and no
13:37 FROGGS brb
13:38 diakopter I really should merge these two branches just to get the makefile fixes, once they work on gmake too
13:39 diakopter before they diverge even more
13:39 btyler joined #perl6
13:39 moritz diakopter: that's not a good argument for making them even slower right now
13:39 dalek roast: 03df203 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S (4 files):
13:39 dalek roast: Unfudge now passing TODO tests, because of type checks on .push and .unshift
13:39 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/03df2032a7
13:40 shinobicl joined #perl6
13:40 lizmat FWIW, for Mu arrays, there is only 1 extra check compared to before
13:40 lizmat self.of =:= Mu
13:40 diakopter moritz: I know; I'm mostly teasing.  mostly.
13:42 diakopter moritz: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/moarvm/2013-07-29 has a link at the bottom to the next day
13:42 timotimo r: my @a; say @a.of;
13:42 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤»
13:43 timotimo oh, that's interesting, i suspected they would be of Any by default
13:43 dayangkun joined #perl6
13:44 moritz most (all?) built-in container types default to Mu
13:45 moritz mostly because there's no good explanation of what happens when assignment autothreads
13:46 sqirrel joined #perl6
13:46 timotimo that's fair.
13:47 timotimo hm; in theory the optimizer could complain at compile-time when arrays of non-matching types are somehow mingled
13:47 lizmat r: my Int @a; my Str @b=@a
13:47 camelia rakudo 923fe3:  ( no output )
13:48 lizmat I guess that could be caught at compile time
13:48 timotimo i'm a bit unhappy about having the type checks inside these operations like shift/push/assign, because if they were somehow separate and visible to the optimizer, the optimizer could just say "this operation is wrapped in a typecheck-op, in this case it seems like i can do the typecheck-op at compile-time!" and leave the rest be
13:48 moritz technically that's valid for empty arrays
13:48 timotimo this way it'd need to either inline all those methods or know about each one, i guess?
13:49 lizmat timotimo: I agree with you, and I'll be the first to rip out that code when we have another solution
13:49 timotimo i wish i had a good solution, though
13:49 lizmat the solution lies in the guts at C-level, most likely
13:49 lizmat where things like Nil assigments will need to be checked as well
13:49 timotimo i don't like hearing that
13:49 arnsholt diakopter: If you need someone to test and debug with gmake I can pitch in
13:50 timotimo hey, how's about the typed arrays get their arguments for push etc typeconstrained? is that doable with the roles we have?
13:50 diakopter I thought that type check array assignment bug was already in rt
13:51 skids joined #perl6
13:51 lizmat r: my Int $a="foo" # checked in rakudo_scalar_store in src/vm/parrot/guts/container.c
13:51 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/90MxMuKhYX:1␤␤»
13:52 timotimo that's the easiest case; that can very well be done by the optimizer at compile-time.
13:52 timotimo actually, maybe that's already the case?
13:52 timotimo r: say "alive"; my Int $a = "foo";
13:52 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«alive␤Type check failed in assignment to '$a'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/LC_VeIi071:1␤␤»
13:52 timotimo nope, sadly not
13:54 JimmyZ lizmat: re 72b1b028a4, runtime check is not about right :)
13:55 lizmat JimmyZ: seems to work, but I'm easily corrected  :-)
13:55 timotimo hm. if the optimizer learns to do the type checking for assignments and push etc, it'd still need a way to do a non-runtime-checked assignment/push/...
13:55 lizmat indeed, runtime will always be needed
13:56 lizmat especially if coming from an Any container assigning to a typed container
13:56 JimmyZ I would rather not do check if it only slow things and throw exception in runtime
13:57 timotimo of course; what i mean is: if i have an Int array and an Int array and i unshift + push from one to the other or something like that ... the optimizer can recognize that it's safe, but it has no way to push into the other array without executing *another* check at runtime
13:57 timotimo shift+push is what i meant to write.
13:57 lizmat indeed
13:57 JimmyZ it doesn't make things better, but worse
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13:58 lizmat JimmyZ: why? if you don't want typed containers, and the associated tests, don't use them  :-)
13:59 lizmat let me check if I can MMD to the work
13:59 moritz well
13:59 moritz yes, MMD is what I wanted to mention
14:00 * PerlJam wonders if Perl 6 will grow a type inferencer like Haskell has
14:00 moritz maybe, maybe we can give Array[Int].shift a signature with return type Int
14:00 moritz and an Array[Int].push candidate that accepts a single Int
14:01 lizmat moritz: I was working on that, but turned out to be more complex than I thought
14:01 timotimo moritz: i would love that; can it be done just with roles and type captures?
14:02 timotimo PerlJam: obviously type-infering everything will be hard unless we sprinkle the core setting with many, many more type annotations
14:02 timotimo currently there are very, very few
14:02 timotimo or maybe you mean that those would be type-infered automatically if possible?
14:03 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
14:04 [Coke] r: for 1..10 -> { constant ha := $_ ; say ha }
14:04 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤  in block  at /tmp/VASTQKo5lA:1␤␤»
14:04 logie joined #perl6
14:04 skids .oO(.push(more,than,one,thing,in,lazy,list) is bothersome -- how you MMD on that without breaking laziness to find the types.)
14:05 [Coke] r: for 1..10 -> $a { constant ha := $ ; say ha }
14:05 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its nameâ�¤at /tmp/wnEroWoVGZ:1â�¤------> [32mfor 1..10 -> $a { constant ha := [33mâ��[31m$ ; say ha }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        colon pairâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefix or meta-prefixâ�¤Â»â€¦
14:05 [Coke] r: for 1..10 -> $a { constant ha := $a ; say ha }
14:05 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤(Mu)␤»
14:05 moritz timotimo: I have no idea
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14:05 lizmat see TimToady's comments earlier today
14:05 timotimo skids: that'll require runtime checks apart from the MMD i fear :(
14:06 moritz r: role R[T] { multi method x(T $x ) returns T { $x * 2 } }; say R[Int].x(42)
14:06 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Invalid typename 'T' in parameter declaration.�at /tmp/Ek_Cg1DFUz:1�------> [32mrole R[T[33m�[31m] { multi method x(T $x ) returns T { $x[0m�»
14:06 moritz r: role R[::T] { multi method x(T $x ) returns T { $x * 2 } }; say R[Int].x(42)
14:06 camelia rakudo 923fe3: OUTPUT«Cannot type check against type variable T␤  in any type_check at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:305␤  in method x at /tmp/QJv1xfUiIQ:1␤  in method x at src/gen/CORE.setting:510␤  in any  at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:1461␤  in block  at /tmp/QJv1xfUiIQ:1␤␤»
14:06 moritz timotimo: seems you can't, with current roles implementation
14:07 lizmat moritz: this should be a right signature, no: multi method push(List:D: *@values where .of =:= Mu) {
14:07 moritz lizmat: that's not what I meant
14:08 moritz lizmat: I meant a candidate    multi method push(List:D: Int $just_one_value) is default { }
14:08 moritz lizmat: which needs to be generated at specialization type
14:08 moritz lizmat: the problem is that @values.of is always Mu
14:08 lizmat ah, but I meant it to work on self
14:08 ecocode`` left #perl6
14:09 moritz but the .of is called on @values
14:09 lizmat so how do I specify the check to be performed on the object ?
14:09 skids timotimo: unless push was specced to have the same effect as a recursive MMD on each argument, even if not implemented that way internally.
14:11 moritz maybe the real answer is to give the optimizer more meta data
14:14 timotimo moritz: "with current roles implementation" seems good. that means it's possible to do in spec ;)
14:14 moritz no
14:14 moritz just because it's impossible with current implementation doesn't mean it's possible by spec
14:15 timotimo aaw
14:15 moritz in fact I'm not sure what exactly the spec says on this issue, if anything at all
14:15 timotimo +perhaps, then
14:15 moritz perhaps, yes
14:15 timotimo sounds like a candidate for a spec ticket
14:15 moritz sounds a candidate for reading up on the specs
14:16 moritz and if it's unclear, maybe a spec ticket
14:16 moritz because I don't have perfect by-heart knowledge of the specs, sad as it is :-)
14:17 skids moritz++ I was biting my tongue trying not to say "maybe we should do  <already specced thing> instead of what's in the spec".
14:17 timotimo skids: i'm not sure i understand you, but it seems like you're conflating .push and .plan?
14:19 masak 'management: "get your ducks in a row". chaordic management: self-organizing ducks" -- https://speakerdeck.com/lauraxt/minimum-viable-bureaucracy
14:20 masak s/" /' /
14:20 masak seems apt for #perl6.
14:20 * lizmat ducks
14:20 lizmat and goes of to look at something else
14:21 lizmat off
14:21 skids timotimo: not conflating just saying maybe Array[Type].push should proceed to push until a typecheck fails, instead of plumbing the entire arglist before trying to push.
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14:23 skids Effectively working as though it were implemented as push(blah,...) { push(blah), push(...) }
14:23 timotimo ah. interesting point indeed
14:24 timotimo because a type check exception can be caught and you'd want to know if the stuff before that would have been pushed before or not.
14:24 lizmat skids, timotimo: but that's what the current implementation does ?
14:24 [Coke] "Don't commit to estimates for unknown tasks. Just say no." (from that deck. ++)
14:24 timotimo lizmat: in that case, a clarification in the spec may be appropriate
14:24 skids lizmat: yay! :-)
14:25 masak I really like the sound of the last slide: "mastery, autonomy, purpose". those are three words I value.
14:26 lizmat map has always been very powerful, albeit lazy
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14:36 masak :)
14:36 jercos (:
14:37 Psyche^_ joined #perl6
14:38 * moritz turns his head the other way to follow the smiley
14:38 jercos
14:40 masak ☄!
14:40 masak sheesh, we still don't have the Snowman::Comet module yet...
14:40 telex joined #perl6
14:40 masak hurry up and future already!
14:41 jercos use Acme::TimeTravel
14:43 timotimo i ... don't even ...
14:43 timotimo what would that even do?
14:43 timotimo the snowman::comet module i mean
14:47 masak timotimo: you must be new here. :D
14:47 yangyong joined #perl6
14:47 masak sorry, I don't mean to be snide, but that's part of our cultural heritage, and you simply must know it :P
14:48 masak hold on, let me get the RT ticket for ya.
14:48 Ulti 💩
14:48 masak https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=66498
14:48 masak Ulti: your client doesn't seem to utf8 properly.
14:48 Ulti orly I can see it :/
14:49 timotimo :)
14:49 masak timotimo: first use was prolly here: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-06-10#i_1229012
14:50 masak timotimo: short story: the bug got fixed, but *of course* now there's no way we *can't* implement snowman-comet quoting as a (language-altering) module.
14:50 masak should be pretty trivial, once we have slangs.
14:50 timotimo haha, i've seen that test some time ago i think
14:50 timotimo but i never knew it had any cultural 'weight' to it :)
14:52 [Coke] google searching the logs for ☃ gives several false positives, it seems. (even with intext:☃)
14:53 masak you can't stop people from making snowmen.
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14:54 lizmat I Am The Sun  :-)
14:55 masak
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14:58 masak I'd love to see someone blog how the Perl 5 and Perl 6 communities view the bullet points in http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/
14:59 masak for example, "In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess." seems to be a very anti-DWIM stance.
15:00 masak as such, Perl 5 should take a rather contrary position, and Perl 6 perhaps a less contrary one, but still not full agreement.
15:00 masak just as an example.
15:00 masak also, that list is from 2004 -- I wonder if the modern Python community is distancing itself from one or more of those?
15:02 flussence "practicality beats purity" maybe... they're still struggling with the py2 to 3 transition even though it's meant to be a straight upgrade.
15:02 masak well, let's not be mean about that upgrade. our challenge is greater.
15:03 masak it shouldn't fill us with glee that others are facing similar hurdles.
15:03 * lizmat mumbles something about our own strength and not taking issue with what other people think
15:03 masak I think in many ways, it is a straight upgrade. the problem is the ecosystem, which is largely py2.
15:05 masak ecosystem matters. it may block the path to worthwhile upgrades/transitions. in a way, it's a "problem of success".
15:05 nwc10 Yes. I think that that's a key part of it
15:06 nwc10 and I see nothing nice about being unpleasant or unhelpful about that upgrade
15:07 nwc10 but I suspect that there are things to learn from it, and problems to avoid repeating
15:07 arnsholt masak: I think the most important point of disagreement between Perl and Python (in terms of your link) is on "there should be only one obvious way"
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 5628e68 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Reimplement Hash.classify/categorize using nqp primitives
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom:
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: This makes for about a 40% reduction in CPU
15:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5628e68d23
15:07 flussence those bullet points seem to have worked either way, the GNOME world pretty much runs on python everywhere.
15:07 masak arnsholt: aye -- that is *the* difference, if you ask me.
15:08 masak arnsholt: it's a kind of mental monoculture versus mental liberalism.
15:08 timotimo 40%! \o/
15:08 lizmat .tell colomon I've reimplement classify/categorize and wonder how your code would be faring with these versions
15:08 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to colomon.
15:08 arnsholt Yeah. There are differences on the others as well, but there it's mostly over what qualifies as what
15:08 masak arnsholt: though of course no Pythonista would ever put it that way :P
15:08 Ulti arnsholt: I dunno I think thats a good tennant for Perl too, the obvious way doesnt need to be the only way though
15:08 Ulti having one obvious good practice style of doing something is a strength
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15:09 colomon lizmat: noted
15:09 yoleaux 15:08Z <lizmat> colomon: I've reimplement classify/categorize and wonder how your code would be faring with these versions
15:10 arnsholt masak: Different ideals, yeah =)
15:12 * colomon just noticed the ABC module has been failing tests for nearly a week.  way to overlook the mote in your own eye, dude.
15:12 lizmat ABC ?
15:14 colomon http://abcnotation.com/  https://github.com/colomon/ABC
15:15 lizmat ooooo  wow…   dus MusicMatic ring a bell with you?
15:15 lizmat MusiMatic rather
15:16 timotimo arnsholt: have you been able to look into the failures in zavolaj that coke has found with his daily star runs?
15:16 colomon lizmat: sorry, no?
15:17 lizmat http://www.43things.com/entries/view/1232086  references it
15:17 lizmat "The Symphony of Psalms is fabulous too. I’ll never forget a friend of mine carefully encoding it into “MusiMatic” – a music playing program on PLATO when I was in college (billions of years ago). It totally worked."
15:17 lizmat PLATO also had locking super/subscript
15:18 lizmat you could use this to indicate to an octave higher / lower
15:18 lizmat You entered music with MusiMatic as text, and it would play it, with max 4 voices if I remember correctly
15:19 lizmat this was the late 70s  :-)
15:19 colomon lizmat: cool!
15:19 daxim_ plato also had <http://enwp.org/Avatar_(PLATO_system_video_game)>, an influential game
15:20 arnsholt timotimo: Some traits that are no longer valid, apparently. Should be pretty straightforward to fix I think
15:20 lizmat empire on PLATO was multiplayer StarTrek universe
15:20 daxim_ its spiritual descendants are mordor for windows 3, and demise for win9x
15:20 colomon I think I started messing around with computer music in 1982 or so.
15:20 lizmat arnsholt: yes, I removed a few in the past days
15:20 lizmat all according to spec, I might add  :-)
15:21 arnsholt Well, that's what happens when you remove them from the spec, isn't it? =p
15:21 colomon One of the very first programs I wrote was a music program, actually.  Cobbled together with not particularly compatible hints at how to do it from different programming magazines.
15:21 lizmat :-)
15:23 colomon lizmat: anyway, I actually use the p6 ABC module for sheet music pretty regularly, so having it broken is a Big Deal as far as I am concerned.
15:23 lizmat daxim: ah, the memories: Moria!  around the same time I was working on yet another Moria successor called Angmar  :-)
15:23 lizmat colomon: I hope the breakage is easy to fix
15:23 colomon lizmat: me too!
15:24 * [Coke] opens tickets for the 3 failing star modules.
15:24 daxim_ you'll like my lightning talk  http://act.yapc.eu/ye2013/talk/4952
15:24 lizmat indeed!
15:24 masak Ulti: psst! "tennant" is the 10th Doctor. if you mean "underpinning principle", "tenet" is what you want. :)
15:26 daxim_ Telo, sisne, tenet? Non tenet ensis, olet.
15:28 * [Coke] opens issues for the 3 modules included in * with no tests.
15:28 huf google translate bleeds to death on that
15:28 huf daxim_: what does it mean?
15:29 daxim_ set input lang to latin
15:29 huf i got _that_ far :)
15:30 lizmat it means the same backwards, that's for sure :-)
15:30 [Coke] tadzik: pod-to-html is one with no tests.
15:38 masak the Web seems to suggest it's the last line of a "Sotadic Elegiac poem".
15:38 masak of which every line, it looks like, is a palindrome.
15:39 masak it's in here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/42792/42792-h/42792-h.htm
15:39 masak that's as far as I get right now.
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16:07 TimToady re: my $x (42); this is parsing as a subsignature, so it doesn't catch the TTIAR error
16:07 TimToady it's not clear to me before coffee whether anything can be done about that...
16:07 TimToady might not be clear after either :)
16:09 TimToady rn: my $x (1+2);
16:09 camelia rakudo 5628e6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Unable to parse expression in constraint; couldn't find final ')'â�¤at /tmp/qWKPnStLbw:1â�¤------> [32mmy $x (1[33mâ��[31m+2);[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤        constraintâ�¤Â»
16:09 camelia ..niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m��Unable to parse constraint at /tmp/cQpiXKCqcb line 1:�------> [32mmy $x ([33m�[31m1+2);[0m�Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/cQpiXKCqcb line 1:�------> [32mmy $x (1[33m�[31m+2);[0m��Parse failed��»…
16:09 TimToady at least some things are illegal in a sig
16:09 masak surely a thing like '(42)' in that position could simply be disallowed?
16:09 masak even if that counted as an "exception", I mean.
16:10 lizmat r: my $a is default (42)   # specifically for these typos
16:10 camelia rakudo 5628e6:  ( no output )
16:10 Ulti masak: heh thanks
16:10 TimToady dunno if a subsig ought to apply to a subsequent bind; arguably it should apply to a $x ::= $stuff
16:10 lizmat r: my $a is default (42); say $a
16:10 camelia rakudo 5628e6: OUTPUT«True␤»
16:10 moritz compare:  sub ($x (:$a, :$b)) { }
16:11 TimToady we could usefully disallow constants on non multi sigs, I suppose
16:11 Ulti masak: all things are reducible to David Tennant Dr Who quotes is a tenet of Perl too though right?
16:13 TimToady we have a big tenet tent
16:13 TimToady r: my $x (42); $x ::= 43; say $x; # arguably should fail
16:13 camelia rakudo 5628e6: OUTPUT«43␤»
16:14 TimToady since the corresponding parameter binding would fail
16:15 masak Ulti: :)
16:17 Ulti I am really bad for that kind of word confusion :S the most embarrassing to date was confusing affluence and effluence
16:17 TimToady :D
16:17 Ulti protip for Perl6 design ^ dont have efflience operators
16:17 Ulti *effluence
16:18 Ulti 'effluence control' would be a great bit of word salad for programming
16:19 TimToady you can't control effluence, it just happens :)
16:19 TimToady there is no guarantee of affluence, however, sigh...
16:20 Ulti you do need to manage both though
16:20 * TimToady will settle for a little influence now and then
16:20 * colomon is wondering how one debugs C++ when the debugger gets completely lost...
16:20 Ulti I imagine aff and eff word starts are the most commonly confused in English though, affect/effect
16:21 Ulti too many accents have aff and eff sounding the same
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16:23 * TimToady tries to feel effection for everyone...
16:25 * lizmat feels very effective now
16:25 lizmat or is it effectivated?
16:26 TimToady depends on which affect you are trying to effect
16:26 dalek rakudo/nom: 9dd34f3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
16:26 dalek rakudo/nom: Allow multi-level classifications, as per spec
16:26 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9dd34f39ba
16:28 lizmat cycling + dinner&
16:29 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
16:38 moritz colomon: strategically placed cout << statements
16:39 colomon moritz: that's what I'm afraid of
16:40 colomon moritz: not sure they're paying me enough for this
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16:45 colomon "lemma-encrusted shoulders of giants" http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=304
16:48 FROGGS joined #perl6
16:48 FROGGS[mobile] left #perl6
16:48 * TimToady suspects the solution to the typed lazy slurpy problem involves being a little bit smarter about static typing of parcel tails
16:48 TimToady such that if you have a typed slurpy, it must be provable at bind time that the tail of the parcel is compatible
16:49 TimToady and the act of putting a type on a slurpy requires the caller to supply that compatibility, either statically via known/inferred types, or by putting a coercer that is known to produce the correct type of list
16:50 moritz the other alternative is a typecheck-as-you-reify approach
16:50 TimToady a guaranteed-slow approach
16:50 moritz (rather than coerce-as-you-reify)
16:50 TimToady coerce as you reifiy would be a declaration like Int() *@slurpy
16:51 TimToady but the important observation is that the static type system can infer things about the tail of a parcel, I think
16:52 TimToady if you have a parcel (1.1, 2.2, 3, 4, 5), and you bind it to ($a, $b, Int *@c), then the compiler should be able to know that starting at the 3rd argument, the parcel is compatible with Int
16:53 TimToady likewise my Int @ints; (1.1, 2.2, @ints)
16:54 TimToady and I'm sayin' we could bend the language in the direction of requiring the caller to take more type responsibility in binding to such a signature
16:54 TimToady how much more depends on how much tail inferencing we do
16:54 * moritz is always scared when TimToady muses about what static analysis should be able to recognize
16:55 TimToady well, gradual typing sits somewhere between static and dynamic, but we're still rather prejudiced toward the dynamic end
16:55 TimToady the static typers would think we are still way out on the dynamic end
16:55 TimToady certainly in Haskell, you'd know the type of the things in your lazy list very accurately
16:56 arnsholt If nothing else, relying/allowing on static analysis here means different compilers most likely will differ in what code they accept and don't, since they won't have the exact same inference capabilities
16:56 * TimToady is just wondering how far we can move that direction (in the case of a typed slurpy) without turning into a brain-pretzel language like Haskell
16:56 diakopter is it better to be effable or affable?
16:57 TimToady diakopter: I'll have a little of each, please :)
16:57 diakopter remind me which one is the influenza operator
16:57 pecastro joined #perl6
16:58 TimToady arnsholt: mostly the differences would show up as what could be detected at compile time vs run time
16:58 abnorman joined #perl6
16:58 arnsholt timotimo: Correction. The bug seems to be more complicated than I thought. Are you blocking on it ATM?
16:59 abnorman joined #perl6
17:00 TimToady but it seems completely obvious to me that the only way to have efficient typed laziness is through static knowledge of the types
17:01 arnsholt jnthn: Could you have a quick look at the recent Zavolaj-fail? I suspect it's due to something changing within Str in Rakudo, which means that I can't mix into a Str with does anymore
17:01 TimToady and that we should not preclude using this knowledge when it is available
17:01 diakopter arnsholt: jnthn's out for a week
17:02 arnsholt Oh. Right.
17:02 TimToady the other thing that is obvious to me is that when we have to check at runtime, we should only do it once
17:03 TimToady requiring the caller to install a statically typed coercer in some cases is not too onerous, I think, if it prevents the binder from having to do duplicate type checks
17:04 TimToady s/prevents/relieves/ maybe
17:06 TimToady and for any such calls known at compile time to be compatible, the type checking can be thrown away entirely
17:06 TimToady which would apply to lexical functions, as well as an finalizable methods
17:07 TimToady and for non-finalizable methods, it comes down to a single run-time check for the tail of the parcel at the current binding position, and fail if the tail is not known to be compatible
17:08 TimToady then there's never any need to typecheck an entire list from the standpoint of the binder
17:09 TimToady the binder may, however, require the caller to find some way of asserting the correct type, either through an explicit coercer/checker, or via additional type annotations on the incoming data
17:09 TimToady (or via inferencing, to the extent we do it)
17:10 TimToady this feels like a better balance point on the gradual typing spectrum than just assuming that slurpies have to be dynamically checked always
17:11 TimToady doubtless there will also be some kind of I-know-what-I'm-doing cast that asserts a type without "proving" it
17:13 arnsholt Are there any non-jnthn Rakudo-core hackers who might be able to shed light on the Zavolaj failure?
17:13 TimToady I guess another way of saying it is that type checking the tail of a small parcel is much easier than type checking the tail of the list that might be produced by the parcel
17:14 arnsholt It complains that "Cannot create rw-accessors for natively typed attribute '$!cstr'", but by all rights that thing shouldn't be natively typed (I think)
17:15 [Coke] arnsholt: is there a issue opened on zavolaj?
17:15 [Coke] is it the same as https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/issues/28 ?
17:16 arnsholt Yeah, that's the one
17:16 [Coke] I can take a poke after $dayjob, but don't expect much from me. :)
17:17 arnsholt Any help I can get =)
17:18 arnsholt Hmm. Apparently the is rw trait is dead
17:18 arnsholt Wonder what happens if I just remove that...
17:19 arnsholt Nope.
17:19 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
17:19 masak TimToady: an I-know-what-I'm-doing cast would also be useful for people who have a (non-Int-typed) array full of Ints, and want to pass it to a routine with a signature with 'Int @x'.
17:19 arnsholt lizmat: Since you're the one who removed this thing, what's the spec-licenced way to mark an attribute as rw? They're ro by default, no?
17:20 masak str: constant I-know-what-I'm-doing = "not really"; # :)
17:20 masak std: constant I-know-what-I'm-doing = "not really"; # :)
17:20 camelia std c2215f0: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
17:20 masak the fact that I typo'd that one would be a case of... Muphry's law, I guess.
17:22 moritz wait what, rw on attributes is gone?
17:23 moritz I thought it was only gone on variables
17:23 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
17:23 moritz r: class A { has $.x is rw }; given A.new { .x = 42; say .x }
17:23 camelia rakudo 9dd34f: OUTPUT«42␤»
17:24 konundra joined #perl6
17:26 arnsholt Ah, I misread the commit message then
17:26 arnsholt lizmat: Never mind. I fail at reading
17:28 colomon joined #perl6
17:31 TimToady Muphry's Law++
17:31 moritz https://github.com/mwilliamson/whack # anybody want to try if whack can build a relocatable parrot?
17:32 * TimToady strongly expects difficulties in mixing in anything read-writey to an immutable value type
17:32 arnsholt moritz: You happen to know of any changes to natives/attributes lately?
17:32 diakopter watching #p5p is scary
17:33 arnsholt TimToady: The thought did occur to me =)
17:33 arnsholt But it's been working for a long time
17:33 masak diakopter: I thought that was a long-established fact. :)
17:33 * diakopter didn't know
17:33 arnsholt (Although that particular functionality is on the chopping block, as soon as I get the tuits to refactor stuff)
17:34 masak diakopter: or maybe s/#p5p/all but a handful of IRC channels/
17:34 moritz arnsholt: no, but I don't follow the low-level stuff closely these days :/
17:35 diakopter masak: that's true.
17:35 moritz .oO( There are two types of IRC channels: Scary ones, and those that nobody uses )
17:35 TimToady certainly the p5p mailing list has been scary from time to time for about twenty years now...
17:35 TimToady so it would not be surprising if #p5p tracked the mailing list in that regard
17:36 masak the p5p mailing list was explicitly one of the cultural bits the Perl 6 rewrite set out to improve upon.
17:36 * masak .oO( "and look, here we are", he stated humbly ) :P
17:37 TimToady well, there are always scaling issues for any community, so let's not kid ourselves too much
17:37 TimToady we have a good start, but that's about all it is
17:37 timotimo arnsholt: i'm not blocking on the bug, no
17:38 nwc10 I might need a fanantical loyalty to the pope
17:38 TimToady Eternal troll hugging is the price of letting people across the bridge.
17:38 nwc10 but tensions on the p5p list seem to be caused by
17:38 nwc10 1) desire for backwards compatibility to keep working code working, versus awesome* new features
17:38 nwc10 * in the eye of the proposer
17:38 masak TimToady: troll hugging will be the first casualty of scaling.
17:39 DarthGandalf joined #perl6
17:39 nwc10 2) many people who talk but don't actually contribute**
17:39 PerlJam nwc10: itym ego, ego, oh, and ego
17:39 TimToady masak: unless we can define it recursively somehow
17:39 nwc10 ** or contribute anything else
17:39 arnsholt timotimo: Well, that's good at least
17:39 moritz nwc10: 2) is actually common in here too
17:39 masak TimToady: delegating troll hugging. yes, sure.
17:39 nwc10 PerlJam: no I *don't*. Once you take the egos out, those two problems remain
17:39 masak TimToady: hugging leutenants! :)
17:39 nwc10 (1) is probably mostly solved by the ability to redefine things lexically
17:40 masak TimToady: but as it grows, it'll also get cracks where non-hugging gets in and festers.
17:40 diakopter nwc10: oh I didn't mean the list
17:40 diakopter just the irc channel
17:40 PerlJam nwc10: okay, I'll agree with that.  But you still have to get past the egos  :)
17:40 masak TimToady: basically, the complex system will get parasites in the Doctorow sense. and the parasites won't want to hug.
17:40 TimToady masak: another thing that helps is ways to split single rooms into multiple rooms with more focused concerns and more localized trolling
17:40 masak aye.
17:41 masak we've had surprisingly little trolling on #masakism.
17:41 FROGGS joined #perl6
17:41 masak someone came in and said they'd been sent there by some Python people -- that's basically it. :)
17:41 PerlJam .oO( somewhere a troll is thinking .oO( challenge accepted ) )
17:41 TimToady really, the only way to ever have an effective large organization is to really have an organization of small organizations
17:42 nwc10 the problem of (2) might be partly reduced by being (far far more) self-hosting
17:42 nwc10 but compilers are still complex beasts to think about, even if the implementation language is familar and powerful
17:42 TimToady well, Apple solves (2) by giving you nothing to say, and nowhere to say it. :)
17:42 masak TimToady: ...which works fine as long as it's not essential that the small organizations interoperate somehow.
17:43 TimToady masak: depends greatly on whether the interaction is via messaging or via shared storage :)
17:44 masak haha
17:44 diakopter nwc10: I just meant the topics discussed are weighty and seem momentous
17:44 diakopter not anyh other kind of scary; I've been in there less than a dayh
17:44 TimToady but really, it is the same problem in disguise, multithreading vs resource contention
17:44 masak TimToady: even if it's via messaging, it may lead to problems. say if the objective is building a monolithic thing, like a compiler.
17:45 * moritz idly wonders if diakopter's "h"s are silent
17:45 masak TimToady: possible problems are responsibility shirking ("the people on the other side of the interface boundary will fix this, surely!") and the opposite, duplicated work.
17:47 TimToady as always, the main problem is to distinguish the actual domain problems from the problems induced by your configuration
17:47 masak TimToady: though I believe seeding is really important. cf "Matz is nice so we are nice"
17:47 sqirrel joined #perl6
17:48 TimToady sure, works for me :)
17:48 masak seeding is probably the biggest identified action one can take in advance of the scaling problems.
17:48 TimToady except when it doesn't...
17:49 diakopter perl is undead so we are undead
17:49 * masak .oO( welcome to TimToady's own little "Rakudo-on-Earth"... ) :P
17:50 [Coke] masak: haven't we historically done a horrible job of managing those interface boundaries, even when we knew they were there and probably not working?
17:50 * PerlJam wonder about the non-earth presence of rakudos
17:50 masak PerlJam: all the more reason, then. :)
17:51 masak [Coke]: I don't know what you're thinking of when you say that, but my thoughts immediately go to Rakudo<->Parrot.
17:51 masak [Coke]: in which case, yeah, kinda. despite the best of intentions, kinda.
17:52 TimToady not even Jesus was able to build a happy little utopia of smiling robots, but he did manage to seed something relatively enduring, one is forced to admit
17:52 [Coke] masak: that's what I was thinking of, aye.
17:53 diakopter variegating if not enduring
17:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: f1145f1 | coke++ | / (5 files):
17:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
17:53 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/f1145f1ddb
17:55 timotimo is there already someone who's providing RPMs of rakudo star releases for fedora?
18:00 diakopter what's the p5 evalbot?
18:00 * [Coke] has trouble understanding why someone would do that.
18:00 [Coke] p5eval: print "WOT?" #?
18:01 diakopter eval: ;
18:01 diakopter eval ;
18:01 benabik joined #perl6
18:01 diakopter p5: ;
18:01 diakopter perl: ;
18:01 timotimo [Coke]: that == RPMs for fedora?
18:02 FieldsaBB joined #perl6
18:04 spider-mario I do that for arch so it’s not impossible that someone does it for fedora.
18:08 [Coke] RPMs of star, specifically.
18:18 zby_home_ joined #perl6
18:21 dalek specs: 98267bb | larry++ | S04-control.pod:
18:21 dalek specs: the 'will' form excludes CATCH and CONTROL
18:21 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/98267bbe64
18:23 FieldsaBB joined #perl6
18:25 TimToady moritz: is there any way for the 'Look for new lines' button to ungrab the focus after you click it?  I like to page forward with spacebar, and if the focus stays on the button, all it does is repush the button
18:28 TimToady or maybe there's some way to trap an attempt to page beyond the end and look for more without an explicit button?
18:34 timotimo many websites do that automatic reloading while scrolling
18:34 FROGGS you could have a checkbox, which does a auto-reload when checked
18:42 benabik if ( scrolling_past_bottom() && now() - last_load > threshold ) load_more_lines()
18:42 * TimToady realizes he's violating the maxim: "Do not look a gift horse in the mouth." :)
18:43 colomon gift horses++
18:50 * masak .oO( do not page a gift horse in the spacebar )
18:50 colomon giant wooden gift horses--
18:51 geekosaur they're a bit troying
18:51 moritz feature requests are fine, as long as they come in the form of suggestions and demands
18:51 arnsholt Beware Geeks bearing gifts?
18:51 moritz and of course TimToady++ has been kind enough to do it that way
18:52 masak "oh look, the enemy sent us this huge, possibly hollow gift! let's put it in the yard and go to sleep, unsuspecting."
18:52 moritz masak: in restrospect, all great ideas are simple :-)
18:53 moritz and most attacks work far better if you've never been warned about them
18:53 masak moritz: yes, that's a possible counter.
18:53 masak but it seems to me that even *before* retrospect, the Troyans were carrying the Idiot Ball.
18:54 moritz is the Troyan horse actually a historically established fact? (or "just" legend/prose"
18:54 masak when is it *ever* a good idea to accept gifts from your siegers?
18:54 moritz )
18:54 masak moritz: good question. probably the latter.
18:54 masak moritz: but even works of fiction can be analyzed for idiocy.
18:55 masak s/probably/almost certainly/
18:58 colomon I'm not sure there's any generally accepted hard evidence for the siege of troy ever happening...
18:59 colomon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War#Historical_basis
18:59 moritz TimToady: the button now loses focus after the reload happened (you might need to reload with Ctrl+shift+R to actually get the updated JS)
19:00 colomon moritz++
19:03 TimToady \o/
19:04 moritz TimToady: I don't know if that acutally allows you to forward-page with space bar though
19:04 moritz I just unfocus the button -- no idea where the focus goes :-)
19:04 moritz seems to work in firefox though
19:05 TimToady yes, works for me, moritz++
19:05 * moritz loves jquery for progressive enhancement thingies
19:05 * masak .oO( did we just make TimToady more unfocused? ) :P
19:05 moritz it seems to have the simplest API that could possibly work, and it works really well
19:06 FROGGS moritz: works on my box (firefox too)
19:06 moritz https://github.com/moritz/ilbot/commit/cda7f273edde20345d384c54970320b1e29bce12 # that's the patch :-)
19:06 masak moritz: after spending over a year with JavaScript and jQuery, I feel that jQuery is what the DOM API should have been if time machines etc.
19:07 masak .blur()++
19:07 * moritz is all for progressively enhancing time machines
19:07 moritz as a means to conquer technical debt :-)
19:07 masak also, jQuery is decidedly JavaScript-aware in its design.
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19:08 masak the DOM API just makes well-intentioned but ultimately committee-bumbling and useless motions toward a language-independent ideal of "object orientation".
19:16 moritz on a mostly unrelated note, a few small js-based UI improvements to our internally (and heavily used) ticket system have received overwhelmingly positive reactions, whereas most changes receive no feedback at all
19:17 FROGGS that is why I spend so much time for UIs, and for most projects I do the UI design first
19:19 moritz (the other feature that some people got really excited about was initiating phone calls from the command line. We have a kind of CRM on the command line, and when you're in the context of a person, you can type 'call', and your phone intiates a connection
19:20 FROGGS ohh nice
19:20 moritz most of my software-hacking was pretty isolated from non-computer hardware, so it was kinda scary for me at first to have the phone ring as soon as you type something in that program)
19:21 FROGGS moritz: what telephone system model do you have there?
19:21 masak moritz: when I worked as a webmaster in 2003, I noticed that a web site skin change generated huge acclaim, whereas a much-needed backend long-planned refactor was met by mostly silence. devs and users have different perspectives. :)
19:22 FROGGS because our telephone system is an older siemens hipath, and the pc client is winxp+office 2003 specific
19:22 moritz FROGGS: Snom 370 VoIP Phones, connected to a Starface server
19:22 FROGGS moritz: ahh, mkay
19:23 FROGGS masak: the first-day-feedback I usually get is: "the old design was better", even when it wasn't (especially when it was not)
19:24 benabik "The old design is better" usually means "I have a pile of habits to avoid the bad parts of the old design"
19:24 moritz FROGGS: not in the price range you were looking for?
19:24 FROGGS like we had a hover-menu on a internal website back in 2006, and when you accidentially move the mouse outside the menu, it collapsed at once
19:24 benabik And people hate changing habits.
19:24 moritz benabik: yes, exactly
19:25 FROGGS was a bit like path finding
19:25 FROGGS benabik: true
19:25 moritz FROGGS: we had that too, plus a 2px wide gap. You had to move the mouse fast enough over the gap, otherwise it would collapse the menu :-)
19:25 moritz at least I removed the gap.
19:25 FROGGS the menu after that was a click menu, so the menu stayed visible as long as you dont click somewhere else
19:26 FROGGS moritz: hehe >.<
19:26 dalek rakudo-star-daily: a528ee2 | coke++ | log/ (4 files):
19:26 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
19:26 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/commit/a528ee208a
19:28 moritz my most popular UI fix was to enhance a 100+ entry multi select box with select2
19:28 masak moritz, FROGGS, benabik: did you see http://bjk5.com/post/44698559168/breaking-down-amazons-mega-dropdown ?
19:30 moritz masak: yes. I was tempted to re-implement that, or import an existing implementation :-)
19:30 benabik masak: I was just searching for that.  Apple does the same thing on submenus.  ISTR a page discussing the difference between typical web, MS, and Apple's submenus.
19:30 FROGGS masak: nice!
19:31 benabik Maybe it wasn't MS.  But there was at least one implementation that did a simple "if you move more horizontal than vertical, leave it open".
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19:32 masak mhm.
19:33 masak "within the blue triangle" seems to be a better heuristic than that.
19:33 benabik Especially for large submenus.
19:33 masak yeah.
19:34 moritz I've just tried it on https://rawgithub.com/kamens/jQuery-menu-aim/master/example/example.html
19:34 moritz it's amazing at how intuitively it works
19:35 benabik When I was looking for it, I found (basically) "hover menus considered harmful".  Should be renamed to "badly implemented hover menus are harmful"
19:36 masak yeah.
19:36 FROGGS when seeing this UI stuff I must always think of the current SAP client... "click on the binocular if you mean next", and if another form you have to click that little truck-icon to get the same functionality>.<
19:36 masak I wonder how often that's the case, of basically blaming a feature or idea for flaws inherent in a bad implementation of it...
19:36 [Coke] FROGGS: "the old design was better" == "you moved my cheese"
19:36 [Coke] we get that all the time here.
19:37 FROGGS [Coke]: I discipline my peeps, so it gets better and better :o)
19:38 masak ooh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F
19:38 Celelibi joined #perl6
19:38 masak Celelibi: aloha.
19:38 prevost joined #perl6
19:39 [Coke] masak: yes, I'm pretty sure that's the origin.
19:39 benabik Hadn't heard that one before.  Love it.
19:41 TimToady there's a bit of Hem and Haw in the pre-mug viewpoint that P5's supply of mindshare couldn't possibly be going down, some "surely this will last forever" thinking...
19:41 * colomon remembers Jennifer complaining bitterly that the local Methodist preacher thought Who Moved My Cheese was an appropriate topic for a sermon.
19:42 * lizmat is back
19:42 masak "They Keep Moving The Cheese" -- this is awesome! :)
19:42 lizmat arnsholt: the only "is rw" trait I removed, was from Variable, not from Attributes or Parameters or Routine
19:43 lizmat ah, you saw it already  :-)
19:44 masak the "Criticism" section of that article is interesting, too.
19:44 masak maybe every useful management technique has an equal and opposite misuse :)
19:44 TimToady yup
19:45 TimToady You Can Throw Cheese As A Weapon!
19:45 TimToady if you're really good, you can throw the lack of cheese as a weapon...
19:45 moritz Anticheese!
19:45 * colomon should just publish a book called "No One Moved It.  I Ate Your Cheese.  Could You Please Go Buy More?  I'm Hungry"
19:46 benabik 1 page: no really, I'm starving, go to the store
19:46 TimToady Learn How To Make Cheese, Duh!
19:46 mtk joined #perl6
19:46 moritz and a special edition for the US, "The War on Chesse Movers"
19:46 * colomon really did finish off a block of cheese just twenty minutes ago
19:47 arnsholt lizmat: Yeah, I officially have no idea what's going on =)
19:48 colomon benabik++
19:50 masak "Sometimes We Move Your Cheese Just To Mess With You."
19:51 colomon "In Soviet Russia, The Cheese Moves You"
19:55 masak 'night, #perl6
19:56 FROGGS Cha' masak!
19:56 dalek rakudo/nom: 54c9984 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Variable.pm:
19:56 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove support for "will catch" and "will control", as per recent spec
19:56 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/54c9984763
19:56 moritz good UGT night, masak
19:59 ecocode joined #perl6
20:03 colomon Joking about cheese aside, I am currently lamenting Google replacing the beautifully functional Android Navigation app interface with some slick-looking thing which is an order of magnitude harder to use.
20:11 colomon Update: and the app no longer seems to actually work; it just spins its wheels without ever returning a result.
20:13 FROGGS well, I can do that too fwiw
20:13 colomon me too
20:14 colomon sometimes feel like I'm making a career out of that, actaully
20:15 colomon huh.  now who changed that #define?
20:16 * colomon finally got working navigation by firing it up in Google Maps.
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20:23 spider-mario they’ve also made it mandatory to have a G+ account to comment on apps in the Play Store…
20:23 spider-mario it even prevents me from editting a comment I had already written before the change
20:23 spider-mario :/
20:27 moritz require a not-so-anonymous login is not a bad idea in general, because it reduced trolling significantly
20:29 geekosaur afaict they're just unifying everything into a single Google Account
20:29 geekosaur and I can see the point of that from their side
20:32 dalek v5: 02c6984 | (Tobias Leich)++ | p5:
20:32 dalek v5: add "use v5;", since what it is about
20:32 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/02c6984ee6
20:32 dalek v5: 37facef | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (4 files):
20:32 dalek v5: try to catch up with rakudo
20:32 dalek v5:
20:32 dalek v5: Applied https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/11b5dae and started to follow
20:32 dalek v5: the Buf refactor. Atm we loose 255 passing tests.
20:32 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/37facef181
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20:43 benabik On the note of LLVM JIT: http://blog.llvm.org/2013/07/kaleidoscope-performance-with-mcjit.html
20:49 Tene The "name-shaped names" or "common names" or whatever they're calling it these days is... unfortunate and misguided.
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21:21 timotimo Tene: what is the "name-shaped names" thing you're talking about?
21:21 timotimo oh, google (and probably also apple)
21:22 Tene timotimo: G+
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21:43 dalek v5: 782c00b | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
21:43 dalek v5: fix unpack signatures (utf8 => Blob)
21:43 dalek v5:
21:43 dalek v5: We are still 47 tests behind.
21:43 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/782c00baf4
21:44 dalek rakudo/nom: 708051d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/ (2 files):
21:44 dalek rakudo/nom: We don't need to expose $*W in Perl6 space, it is already exposed!
21:44 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:44 dalek rakudo/nom: Now, it would be great if we could do this with $/ as well.  It would allow
21:44 dalek rakudo/nom: easy improvement of all compile time errors found in Perl6 space.
21:44 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/708051d049
21:45 lizmat .tell moritz 50% of the $*W & $/ problem solved
21:45 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to moritz.
21:45 preflex yoleaux: you have 1 new message. '/msg preflex messages' to read it.
21:45 [Coke] who owns preflex?
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21:49 lizmat gnight #perl6!
21:49 FROGGS gnight lizmat
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22:01 Tene preflex: preflex
22:02 Tene preflex: owner
22:06 timotimo i couldn't compile nqp.jvm because i had an openjdk 1.7 and jre 1.8
22:06 timotimo er, other way around
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22:09 diakopter timotimo: heh.
22:10 timotimo also, the output of -showversion is incompatible with the ConfigureJVM.pl script. i'll upload a patch soon
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