Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-08-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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06:00 moritz \o
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06:23 [Coke] moritz: just coming online?
06:25 lizmat good *, #perl5!
06:25 moritz [Coke]: yes
06:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: 7754068 | coke++ | / (5 files):
06:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
06:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/77540687a1
06:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: b7e1698 | coke++ | perl6_pass_rates:
06:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: Fix date - running after midnight somewhere...
06:26 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/b7e1698f49
06:26 moritz was there any parrot release yesterday?
06:26 * [Coke] ... there, now I can go to sleep.
06:27 * nwc10 was wondering exactly that
06:27 labster my email says there was parrot release.
06:27 lizmat moritz: there is an announcement
06:27 moritz oh right
06:27 nwc10 e-mail as of 6 minutes ago?
06:27 [Coke] #parrot claims so
06:28 tadzik this emails also informs of pmurias++ passing GSoC! \o/
06:28 moritz my mixture of mail rules means that the announcement is sorted into my p6l folder, where I didn't actively look for it
06:28 labster fixed one bug?
06:28 moritz tadzik: midterms
06:28 tadzik oh?
06:28 nwc10 I think that the e-mail only arrived 7 minutes ago
06:28 moritz All three of our GSoC students passed their midterms, and are on track to complete their Parrot and Perl 6 projects on time.
06:29 tadzik oh, misread
06:29 moritz tadzik: even better, we can expect more awesomeness from pmurias++
06:29 tadzik so gsoc is a lot longe these days
06:29 tadzik of course :)
06:29 nwc10 labster: the news is consistent with the recent commit history: https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commits/master
06:30 labster Well, no rush on upgrading then, we don't even use PCRE, right?
06:32 moritz labster: we don't. But if it fixes build issues with PCRE, then we won't have to pass --without-pcre to parrot's Configure.pl anymore :-)
06:36 lizmat r: say $^N  # note it doesn't catch the Perl5 special var check
06:36 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/dDEbHNRo8pâ�¤Cannot use placeholder parameter $^N in the mainlineâ�¤at /tmp/dDEbHNRo8p:1â�¤------> [32msay $^N[33mâ��[31m  # note it doesn't catch the Perl5 spec[0mâ�¤Â»
06:37 lizmat so I guess all of the $^letter handling wrt to Perl 5 variables, can be removed
06:37 lizmat I guess that predates the invention of placeholder variables
06:37 lizmat TimToady: do you agree ?
06:37 moritz std: / $^N /
06:37 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of $^N variable; in Perl 6 please use $/[*-1] at /tmp/TY1D63p4b0 line 1:�------> [32m/ $^N [33m�[31m/[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 42m�»
06:38 moritz r: / $^N /
06:38 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/xPVsSpkA_6�Cannot use placeholder parameter $^N in the mainline�at /tmp/xPVsSpkA_6:1�------> [32m/ $^N[33m�[31m /[0m�»
06:39 lizmat r: sub a { say $^N }; a("foo")
06:39 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«foo␤»
06:39 FROGGS lizmat: is it about just stripping this? rakudo/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:1590:    # TODO: $^X and other "caret" variables
06:39 lizmat std: sub a { say $^N }; a("foo")
06:39 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of $^N variable; in Perl 6 please use $/[*-1] at /tmp/nRsKMy8Pzf line 1:�------> [32msub a { say $^N [33m�[31m}; a("foo")[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 43m�»
06:39 lizmat I think std is wrong here
06:40 lizmat it's about stripping the entire special_variable token
06:40 lizmat 200+ lines
06:40 lizmat since that can now be handled by X::Syntax::Perl5Var
06:43 FROGGS 'now' means it is already in nom?
06:43 TimToady see S06:1966
06:43 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1966
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06:44 lizmat aha, so nom is wrong  in that respect
06:45 lizmat but otherwise, TimToady, would you agree it is a good thing to move special_variable handling to P6 user space?
06:45 lizmat instead of in the grammar ?
06:46 TimToady I dunno, it relies on LTM currently with lots of special lookahead dwimmery
06:46 lizmat well, it currently doesn't work
06:46 lizmat r: say $*
06:46 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/lgIvcHUKBGâ�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its nameâ�¤at /tmp/lgIvcHUKBG:1â�¤------> [32msay [33mâ��[31m$*[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefix or meta-prefixâ�¤Â»â€¦
06:46 diakopter where is the parrot announcement
06:47 lizmat r: say $"
06:47 labster diakopter: in my email box.
06:47 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/AnOGdUUcY6â�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its nameâ�¤at /tmp/AnOGdUUcY6:1â�¤------> [32msay [33mâ��[31m$"[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefix or meta-prefixâ�¤Â»â€¦
06:47 lizmat r: say $'
06:47 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/bjdlifmvqlâ�¤Non-declarative sigil is missing its nameâ�¤at /tmp/bjdlifmvql:1â�¤------> [32msay [33mâ��[31m$'[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤        prefix or meta-prefixâ�¤Â»â€¦
06:47 moritz it was sent to perl6-announce too, so it'll eventually appear on planetsix too
06:47 lizmat I was appropriating that error into Perl5Var and then turn it into what STD gives
06:48 labster diakopter: this is the relevant bit of the changes, though. https://github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/​2eb1a37d43b9cef4d4466e7ffb32bb764180f363
06:48 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'say $"'
06:48 lizmat ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
06:48 lizmat Unsupported use of $" variable; in Perl 6 please use .join() method
06:48 diakopter okay, I thought you were saying there was some non-standard announcement
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06:50 TimToady and not all of it can be based on triggering by an error
06:50 TimToady std: $/ = "\n";
06:50 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of $/ variable as input record separator; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's :irs attribute at /tmp/jYCxINWN1p line 1:�------> [32m$/[33m�[31m = "\n";[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 41m�»
06:50 TimToady that's actually legal P6
06:51 [Coke] r: say [Coke]
06:51 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/AEzTR4o_jpâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    Coke used at line 1. Did you mean 'Code'?â�¤â�¤Â»
06:52 lizmat r: $/ = "\n"
06:52 camelia rakudo bda446:  ( no output )
06:52 lizmat TimToady: so you're saying that rakudo has it wrong, or std ?
06:52 TimToady rakudo
06:53 lizmat as in, you cannot assign to $/, and if you do, you're assuming it is a P5 variable
06:53 TimToady yes
06:54 TimToady unfortunately assignment to $/ is a common idiom in P5
06:54 lizmat and preferablly at compile time of course
06:54 TimToady that's what STD does
06:56 TimToady std: $/ [=] "\n";
06:56 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  Useless use of [] around infix op at /tmp/7eozoLelWC line 1:â�¤------> [32m$/ [33mâ��[31m[=] "\n";[0mâ�¤ok 00:00 43mâ�¤Â»
06:56 TimToady snerk
06:56 TimToady std: ($/) = "\n";
06:56 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 44m␤»
06:56 TimToady std: $/ := "\n";
06:56 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
06:57 TimToady I think P6 $/ typically uses binding semantics underneath anyway
06:57 lizmat do you have an opinion on keeping special_variable token in the grammar otherwise
06:59 lizmat removing that and put all the specific feedback info in the X::Syntax::Perl5Var class ?
06:59 TimToady it would probably be possible to move most of the special variable detection into error analysis, but some of them would have eaten a twigil without a \w, and others that aren't followed by a twigil would have to look ahead to see if there was something P5ish
06:59 lizmat brb
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07:00 TimToady I guess it would be easier to turn off the P5ism detection if it weren't in the grammar
07:00 TimToady might cut down on lexer size a little too
07:01 FROGGS masak: I think https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/mas​ter/integration/advent2009-day02.t#L23 is against http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#The_.fmt_method
07:02 FROGGS TimToady: do you agree that the directive count of .fmt/sprintf must match the argument count passed?
07:03 TimToady well, the use case for the allowing them to disagree is marginal at best
07:03 TimToady and one can always trim or extend a list of arguments to suit
07:06 TimToady also, depends on how you count "argument", since some formats are applied repeatedly to arrays/hashes by .fmt
07:06 TimToady nr: say <1 2 3>.fmt("%5.2f")
07:07 camelia rakudo bda446, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT« 1.00  2.00  3.00␤»
07:07 TimToady like that
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: 7dac837 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | comp (2 files):
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: add rakudo-jvm to the components
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/7dac8371fa
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: 3191de6 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | comp (2 files):
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: Fix compiler naming to be more VM-neutral
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/3191de6562
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: 06d0b53 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | components.json:
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: Update rakudo-jvm build steps to current procedure as of 2013-08-18
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/06d0b534a0
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: 61c4213 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | components.json:
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: nqp repo renames must be reflected in build instructions for things that use nqp
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/61c421313f
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: a48bb92 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | perl6/rc-forest-fire:
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: Type checking of array contents in new Rakudo catches type bug in rc-forest-fire; to make it fair across all perl6en, just de-constrain the array
07:10 dalek perl6-bench: review: https://github.com/japhb/pe​rl6-bench/commit/a48bb920a7
07:10 FROGGS TimToady: I am talking about the call to sprintf
07:10 TimToady well, you mentioned .fmt
07:11 FROGGS TimToady: so this is invalid when we use nqp::sprintf, because only the key is used: https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/mas​ter/integration/advent2009-day02.t#L24
07:11 TimToady but yes, sprintf should probably enforce agreement, at compile time if it can
07:12 lizmat TimToady: ok, clear, need to run errands now, bbl &
07:13 FROGGS TimToady: and we are thinking that if you use directives like %$3s, the rule is more like "every arg has to be used"
07:15 TimToady nr: say { :a(1), :b(2) }.fmt('%s:%0.0s', ' -- ')
07:15 camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«a:1 -- b:2␤»
07:15 camelia ..rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«a: -- b:␤»
07:15 TimToady it's possible to print something with 0 width, I guess
07:15 TimToady well, except in niecza :)
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07:17 TimToady given we can do 0 width, it's more reasonable to enforce the need for both a key and a value field, but I'm not sure this use of .fmt rises to the same level of error-proneness as an sprintf with the wrong number of args
07:18 FROGGS nqp-jvm: say(sprintf("%0.0s", ["test test, can you 'ear me?"]))
07:18 camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Lexical '&sprintf' not found␤  in <anon>␤  in <anon>␤  in eval␤  in evalfiles␤  in command_eval␤  in command_line␤  in MAIN␤  in <anon>␤  in <anon>»
07:18 TimToady nr: say { :a(1), :b(2) }.fmt('%s:', ' -- ')
07:18 camelia rakudo bda446, niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«a: -- b:␤»
07:18 FROGGS nqp-jvm: say(nqp::sprintf("%0.0s", ["test test, can you 'ear me?"]))
07:18 camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«No registered operation handler for 'sprintf'␤  in compile_op␤  in as_jast␤  in as_jast␤  in <anon>␤  in process_args␤  in <anon>␤  in <anon>␤  in compile_op␤  in as_jast␤  in as_jast␤  in <anon>␤  in compile_all_the_stmts␤  in as_jast␤  in as_jast␤  in <anon>␤  in compi…
07:18 FROGGS huh?
07:18 TimToady neither niecza nor rakudo has trouble with a short .fmt on a key/value pair
07:19 FROGGS TimToady: that works locally using nqp::sprintf
07:19 TimToady and there are probably lots of times you're interested in only the key, so we could support that as a special case
07:19 FROGGS (it prints nothing
07:19 FROGGS )
07:19 TimToady why are you trying to print an array?
07:20 FROGGS TimToady: well, parrot's sprintf doesnt care about too many args, nqp::sprintf does
07:20 FROGGS TimToady: nqp's op is like that
07:20 TimToady right, no variadics
07:21 FROGGS hmmm, maybe rakudo can let nqp parse the directives, return the argument count, and the decide only to pass the key
07:22 FROGGS the would make Hash.fmt("%s") work
07:22 FROGGS but not sprintf( "%s", Hash ) I think
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07:23 TimToady well, not if Hash flattens into an argument list
07:23 TimToady sprintf( "%s", $hash ) would work
07:23 _daniel-s__ joined #perl6
07:23 TimToady fsdo work
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07:24 TimToady arguably, Array.fmt("%s %s") could figure out it should do .kv
07:25 FROGGS hmmm
07:25 TimToady well, more likely "%d: %s\n" or some such
07:25 FROGGS what if you have several directives and a mix of hashes and arrays? It can't decide to only pass keys or not
07:26 TimToady .fmt never has a mix
07:26 FROGGS but sprintf("", .... )
07:26 TimToady and sprintf is 1 for 1
07:26 FROGGS 1 for 1?
07:26 TimToady 1 % for each arg
07:27 TimToady sprintf doesn't dwim like .fmt does
07:27 FROGGS ahh, because the args dont flatten
07:28 TimToady if you say sprintf("%s", $array), the array stringifies before %s has its way with it
07:28 TimToady likewise $hash
07:28 FROGGS yeah
07:29 FROGGS so it will work out nicely
07:29 TimToady we have to stay close to C semantics with sprintf, but .fmt can be dwimmier
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07:29 FROGGS I know now how to fix this fwiw: perl6 -e 'say Int.fmt("%d")'
07:29 FROGGS 0
07:29 FROGGS err
07:29 FROGGS perl6 -e 'say Inf.fmt("%d")'
07:29 FROGGS get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the given representation
07:29 FROGGS this ^^
07:30 TimToady there's no integer representation of Inf
07:30 TimToady unlike floaters
07:30 FROGGS true, thinko
07:31 FROGGS and %s already works
07:31 jnthn morning
07:31 FROGGS jnthn: morning
07:31 TimToady so we'd have to treat that specially if we wanted %d to be able to do Inf
07:31 TimToady jnthn: o/
07:31 FROGGS r: say Inf.fmt('%s')
07:31 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
07:31 FROGGS TimToady: and this is where the sprintf argument handler comes in handy
07:33 TimToady eval: printf("%d\n", inf)
07:33 TimToady or however you invoke P5 here...
07:33 TimToady prints -1
07:33 TimToady :)
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07:35 moritz p5eval: printf("%d\n", inf)
07:35 p5eval moritz: -11
07:35 moritz p5eval: sprintf("%d\n", inf)
07:35 p5eval moritz: -1
07:36 TimToady not sayin' we should follow p5's behavior here...
07:36 * jnthn yawns
07:36 * TimToady yawns, but for the opposite reason
07:36 jnthn :)
07:36 * FROGGS gets c[#]
07:37 * diakopter yawns for monkey reasons
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07:48 TimToady zzz &
08:13 _ilbot joined #perl6
08:13 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
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08:15 moritz \o masak
08:15 popl left #perl6
08:16 masak moritz: "You don't have permission to access /perl6/2013-08-20 on this server" for http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-08-20
08:16 masak yesterday is "Forbidden", apparently.
08:16 lizmat not for me ?
08:16 * masak .oO( now, if you had said that about tomorrow, I wouldn't have batted an eye )
08:17 cosimo joined #perl6
08:17 masak hey, now it works again.
08:17 itz joined #perl6
08:17 Kiralexis joined #perl6
08:17 masak never mind.
08:17 masak anyway, it failed twice.
08:17 moritz masak: might be a temporary problem with rate limiting
08:17 moritz I'll have to find a better balance between not bothing users and limiting for bots
08:18 lizmat surely, yesterday is just a static file ?
08:18 Nei joined #perl6
08:19 Nei certainly looks fine to me here ;)
08:19 moritz lizmat: it's not; I should make it one, eventually
08:20 moritz having it all dynamic was perfect when I still did heavy hacking on the markup
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08:32 popl sorry for the joining and parting. I am troubleshooting an encoding issue with my terminal. :)
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08:39 moritz .tell popl a good test for a UTF-8 terminal is   perl -Mcharnames=:full -CS -wle 'print "\N{EURO SIGN}"'
08:39 * moritz notices he doesn't know anymore how to use the message bot de jour
08:39 dakkar joined #perl6
08:40 jnthn I fear yoleaux may have been appropriately named...
08:41 * nwc10 was trying to remember enough French. I think it's "ajourd hui, comment s'appel le message bot du jour?"
08:41 nwc10 grammar and spelling likely to be a lot worse than my German
08:42 jnthn .oO( "le bot message" at least *sounds* frencher... )
08:42 popl joined #perl6
08:43 moritz nwc10: I dimly recall that in French you do it in reverse order. If it's "message bot" in DE or EN, it's "bot de message" in FR
08:43 * masak .oO( the French. they do it backwards. )
08:45 masak also, probably a bit tautological with both "ajourd'hui" and "du jour" :)
08:46 masak (I don't remember how to spell French either, by the way)
08:46 dmol joined #perl6
08:46 jnthn masak: F-r-e-n-c-h
08:47 jnthn You actually got it right :P
08:47 masak thank you! you're a big help.
08:47 nwc10 For some reason this makes me think of
08:47 jnthn yay, I did something useful today \o/
08:47 nwc10 My dog has no nose | How does he smell? | Terrible
08:47 tadzik :D
08:48 tadzik How does a duck look? | With its eyes, duh
08:48 tadzik it's less wrong in Polish
08:49 * masak somehow is reminded of http://bash.org/?25464
08:49 diakopter if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... the duck's probably not cooked enough yet
08:51 masak I wonder how many type theorists have learned about duck typing and gone "what... what are you... wh... noooooooooo"
08:51 jnthn Ducks that glance at you are the tastiest. Om nom. Peeking duck.
08:51 masak dåligt.
08:52 arnsholt =D
08:52 masak at least the peeking duck is less annoying than the pecking duck.
08:54 diakopter or the pekid duck
08:55 jnthn I think the animal pun in the MoarVM talk at YAPC is still my worst, though. :)
08:55 diakopter jnthn: I was the only one who laughed I think
08:55 diakopter I didn't mind being the only one
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08:56 masak what animal pun?
08:56 diakopter mwahaha
08:56 jnthn masak: The penguin in the GC slides...
08:56 masak amazingly, Peking duck is made from a type of duck called Pekin duck. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pekin_Duck
08:56 masak diakopter: I laffed, but I was forewarned :)
08:56 diakopter wait, I'm thinking of another pun in the slides
08:57 jnthn There was another? :)
08:57 diakopter where I truly was the only one who laughed
08:57 diakopter oh dear..
08:58 diakopter I could've sworn...
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08:58 masak didn't pdcawley shout "what are you doing to the children, you sick bastard!?" :P
08:58 masak (turning them into gentoo penguins)
08:58 jnthn haha
08:58 jnthn Probably :)
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08:59 JimmyZ masak: http://www.oreillynet.com/etel/blog/2004​/02/there_are_10_kinds_of_people_e.html
08:59 JimmyZ extend
09:00 gdey joined #perl6
09:01 JimmyZ oh, this http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/5aa9/
09:01 jeff_s1 joined #perl6
09:01 masak the first comment in that first link, "There are 2 kinds of people -- those who divide people into kinds, and those who don't." -- is one of the few autopuns that I don't consider very funny. too "constructed".
09:02 diakopter yeah; it's not tongue-in-cheek enough in its devastating criticism
09:03 diakopter "there are 2 kinds of people -- those who write comments on this blog"
09:03 masak :)
09:03 masak the thinkgeek comments made me depressed. why oh why did I read the comments? :( don't read the comments.
09:04 * diakopter doesn't see thinkgeek comments
09:05 masak good.
09:05 brrt slight, non-perl6-related-rant: why does everybody think that, if its over http, and somewhere json is used, and it isn't SOAP or JSON-RPC or something, its' automatically REST?
09:05 diakopter "2 in base 10 is
09:05 diakopter 10 in base 2"
09:05 diakopter how many other pairs of those are there
09:06 brrt 'cause REST means a really specific thing, and 9-out-of-10 times people who call their system REST do not try to achieve that specfic thing at all
09:06 masak diakopter: "n in base 10 is 10 in base n"
09:06 masak diakopter: for any n. that's what "10" means.
09:06 jnthn brrt: I know. You're like "hypermedia constraint" and they're like "wtf is that" :)
09:07 brrt exactly
09:08 masak "A RESTful API is only truly RESTful if it uses hypermedia to tell us about all the actions that can be performed on the curent resource, allowing us to traverse the API from a single entry point."
09:08 masak I talked about this to my participants yesterday.
09:08 masak a SOAP guy in the audience was not impressed.
09:08 jnthn I'm never quite sure whether to treat the richardson maturity model as "it's OK to call it REST if you're on the way there" or "you shouldn't call it REST unless you're at level 3"
09:08 masak he: "you still need to spec all your resources and the verbs on them!" me: "well, yeah..."
09:09 brrt i'll be the first to admit that not everybody wants or needs the full flexibility of a REST model
09:09 jnthn brrt: Oh, for sure.
09:09 * masak .oO( if we don't do our REST properly they will all HATEOAS )
09:09 diakopter jnthn: but I have unique urls for everything.
09:09 jnthn brrt: I think when a lot of people say REST they really want to say "HTTP-based API"
09:09 jnthn diakopter: That's level 1 of the maturity model. :)
09:10 brrt which is exactly the situation i'm in jnthn :-)
09:10 masak jnthn: that's like, so immature!
09:10 jnthn masak: SOAP is level 0 :P
09:10 brrt and i keep saying, no, thats not REST, because we don't have unique urls, no form of redirection or whatever, and GET and POST are equivalent
09:11 jnthn Thing is, I suspect if you fed the average consumer of a HTTP API a truly RESTful one, they'd not really know how to consume it properly anyway...
09:11 diakopter masak: so how many other bases work there in place of 10
09:11 jnthn That is, they'd go couple to all the URLs anyways...
09:12 denis_boyun joined #perl6
09:12 diakopter "but my web server only understands TRACE method
09:12 diakopter "
09:14 diakopter jnthn: what does TRACE mean in REST
09:14 diakopter because it HAS to mean SOMETHING
09:14 brrt we (n the vaguest sense) perhaps should launch some sort of education offensive
09:14 rindolf joined #perl6
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09:16 diakopter moritz: can you query your clogs to find out the person whose comments cause the most people to part the channel (not quit) soon after?
09:18 moritz diakopter: I don't think parts are logged reliably
09:19 lizmat is it sane to throw another exception from within the message method of an exception ?
09:20 lizmat specifically, throw an X::Syntax::SigilWithoutName from with a X::Syntax::Perl5Var
09:20 lizmat if the strange var name is not one of the ones existing in Perl 5 ?
09:20 moritz NO
09:20 lizmat figured  :-)
09:20 diakopter only if the message is "turtles"
09:20 moritz having .message die gives the worst possible user experience
09:20 moritz lizmat: seems like you want a kind of static function that decides for you which exception to construct
09:21 diakopter endless loop is worse
09:22 moritz deleting all your files is also worse :-)
09:22 lizmat I'm a slow mail reader
09:22 lizmat I tend not to read mail real fast
09:23 * diakopter dubs thee "outlook"
09:23 * diakopter dubbeth thee "outlook"
09:23 jnthn .oO( "outlook not so good" )
09:25 diakopter masak: did you think of any other bases than 10? :)
09:26 moritz diakopter: all bases are base 10 :-)
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09:40 masak diakopter: no :)
09:43 diakopter must mean base 10 is magical
09:44 masak I don't know how you conclude that.
09:45 lizmat if you think about it, 10 is really yin/yang
09:47 masak define "is really".
09:50 diakopter masak: the joke is that the "base 10" and "base 2" are both expressed in base 10
09:51 diakopter so there's really 3 variables there
09:51 masak diakopter: I suspected you were after something like that.
09:51 JimmyZ multi trait_mod:<is>(Routine $rl, :$really!) { ... }
09:52 masak diakopter: in any discussion about bases that purports to be serious, I usually agree on some convention with the other party, to keep things non-confused.
09:52 masak JimmyZ: :P
09:53 JimmyZ s/Routine $rl/Int $i/
09:53 JimmyZ ;)
09:54 kaleem joined #perl6
09:56 diakopter "in what base was that number you just said?" "okay, in what base was that number?" "okay, in what base was THAT number?"
09:58 moritz base specs are always decimal.
09:58 moritz problem solved.
10:00 diakopter my measure of Perl 6's readiness: how long it takes me to come up with a new WEIRD bug when I sporadically try to
10:03 masak waitwait... is the readiness directly proportional to the time it takes, or inversely? :P
10:04 diakopter depends on oyur definition of bug
10:06 jnthn Could go either way. I mean, we make it run faster and diakopter can find bugs faster. We make it less buggy and diakopter can find bugs slower. We make it faster and less buggy and it retains its current readiness :P
10:07 masak depends if it gets less buggy faster or faster faster :P
10:11 nwc10 by this metric, how ready is Perl 5?
10:22 masak oh, I thought you removed the last bug from Perl 5 a couple of years ago... :P
10:23 diakopter nwc10: that one's trickier, because it's so difficult to nail down what is a bug
10:25 diakopter I could discover a thousand behaviors that seem bizarre and unexpected to me.. but which others will tell me, "oh, no, that's how it's supposed to work"
10:25 masak which makes backwards compatibility so much more... interesting.
10:25 masak because it's kind of a moving target, or at least not a fully-known target.
10:26 diakopter and it's not like I'll ever find the test for that particular case in the test suite, if it's there
10:27 diakopter s/test/RT/g
10:28 diakopter Failed language names:  Morass.  Tarpit.  Boondoggle.  Tarbaby.  Sepulchre.
10:29 diakopter er, failed names of languages, I meant
10:29 diakopter not Names for failed languages
10:31 diakopter marketing department: "I really don't think we can sell your language if it's named deathtrap"
10:36 diakopter "your choice of AllSoftwareSucks for the name of your Operating System is curious"
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: a24bf6f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/ (2 files):
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: Catch a few more special P5 variable names
10:40 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a24bf6f4e7
10:41 ribasushi joined #perl6
10:46 lizmat what is the best way in NQP to see if a character is in A..Z ?
10:47 lizmat ge A && le Z ?
10:47 jnthn r: my $chr := 'G'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
10:47 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«True␤»
10:47 jnthn r: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
10:47 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«False␤»
10:47 jnthn oops
10:47 jnthn nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
10:47 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
10:47 lizmat in NQP
10:48 jnthn nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
10:48 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
10:48 lizmat cool!
10:48 jnthn um...no, it got it wrong!
10:48 jnthn wtf
10:49 jnthn Of course, you can always $chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/ :)
10:49 jnthn Anyway, you can write it with ge && le too
10:49 lizmat $chr ~~ works in nqp ?
10:50 jnthn r: my $chr := 'G'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/)
10:50 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«「G」␤␤»
10:50 fhelmberger joined #perl6
10:50 jnthn r: my $chr := 'g'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/)
10:50 jnthn dammit, nqp
10:50 jnthn nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/)
10:50 jnthn nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say($chr ~~ /^<[A..Z]>$/)
10:50 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
10:50 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«␤»
10:50 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«G␤»
10:50 jnthn anyway, yes :)
10:50 lizmat cool
10:50 lizmat thanks!
10:51 * jnthn is happy to see that this is already mentioned in the Rakudo and NQP internals course :)
10:51 lizmat :-)
10:51 masak \o/
10:57 lizmat r: { say $^X }("foo")
10:58 camelia rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«foo␤»
10:58 lizmat $ perl6 -e '{ say $^X }("foo")'
10:58 lizmat ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling -e
10:58 lizmat Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME
10:58 lizmat spectesting now
11:02 moritz std: { say $^X }("foo")
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11:02 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Unsupported use of $^X variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EXECUTABLE_NAME at /tmp/iQS4nIgiEM line 1:�------> [32m{ say $^X [33m�[31m}("foo")[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 43m�»
11:02 moritz but isn't $^X valid Perl 6 also?
11:05 grondilu rn:  say { $_ < 2 ?? 1 !! $_*&?BLOCK($_-1) }(4);
11:05 camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209: OUTPUT«24␤»
11:05 camelia ..rakudo bda446: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/IjPPeU4UcHâ�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    &?BLOCK used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
11:05 lizmat moritz: no
11:05 lizmat http://perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1968
11:06 masak somehow this article made me think of #perl6 in general and jnthn in particular: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/p​mwiki.php/Main/PungeonMaster
11:07 dalek rakudo/nom: 8e617d5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
11:07 dalek rakudo/nom: Disallow $^A..Z as perl S06:1968
11:07 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8e617d5881
11:07 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S06.html#line_1968
11:08 moritz masak: I propose to change our standard expletive to "WTP", "What The Pun" :-)
11:09 moritz (and if you don't immediately like this proposal, punder it a bit :-)
11:09 lizmat What The Poo ?
11:09 masak moritz: :P
11:09 lizmat Winnie!
11:09 masak moritz: I will take it punder consideration.
11:09 masak lunch &
11:09 lizmat or just Winnie The Poo
11:10 kaleem joined #perl6
11:10 * masak .oO( Winnie The Unicode Pile of Poo )
11:15 pmurias joined #perl6
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: 1df3259 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: While emitting JavaScript correctly quote string containing \.
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/1df3259783
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: 336fb9b | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: Implement \s in regexes.
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/336fb9b5f9
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: 63954ec | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/serialization.js:
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: Correctly deserialize hashes of variants containing the key "deserialize".
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/63954ec4e0
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: cb76b7f | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime.js:
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: Make nqp::join stringify it's arguments properly.
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/cb76b7f619
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: 4b63f88 | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime.js:
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: Implement nqp::printfh.
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/4b63f880a7
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: 614cc21 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (2 files):
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: Implement nqp::shell.
11:17 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/614cc21aa7
11:19 dalek rakudo-js: 5ba0bda | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime.js:
11:19 dalek rakudo-js: A slightly hackish implementation of nqp::where for P6opaque objects.
11:19 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/5ba0bda3e1
11:19 dalek rakudo/nom: 149bd0f | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
11:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention that $^A..$^Z are no longer allowed
11:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/149bd0fcd0
11:40 fhelmberger_ joined #perl6
11:44 dalek rakudo/nom: 4c26636 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
11:44 dalek rakudo/nom: Move message of SigilWithoutName to Perl5Var, eradicate SigilWithoutName
11:44 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4c26636ab8
11:45 dalek roast: 70940e2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
11:45 dalek roast: SigilWithoutName is now Perl5Var
11:45 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/70940e25e4
11:46 fhelmberger joined #perl6
11:57 dalek rakudo/nom: e84ddaf | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
11:57 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure we do the $^A..Z check before the mainline check
11:57 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e84ddafbf4
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12:07 dalek roast: 449915a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
12:07 dalek roast: Add some more Perl5Var exception tests
12:07 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/449915acd3
12:08 lizmat this concludes mo foray into Grammar and Actions wrt to Perl5 variables in Perl 6 for nw
12:08 lizmat *my
12:15 lizmat need to get more experience with grammars before touching <special_variable> again
12:20 benabik joined #perl6
12:26 lizmat r: .say for < $< $> >  # rakudobug ?
12:26 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«$<$>␤»
12:28 moritz std: .say for < $< $> >
12:28 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
12:29 moritz seems STD agrees
12:29 lizmat agrees that the space between $< and $> disappears ?
12:29 lizmat and it becomes a single string ?
12:29 benabik Yeah.  I would have expected "$<\n$>\n"
12:30 benabik r: < $< $> >.perl.say
12:30 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«("\$<\$>",).list␤»
12:30 jnthn It didn't become a single string
12:31 jnthn oh, or did it...
12:31 jnthn Hm
12:31 jnthn Hm, that should probably have become quote words...
12:31 benabik Well, it became a list with a single string, technically.  :-D
12:31 jnthn Yeah. Odd
12:31 * masak submits rakudobug
12:33 dalek roast: 1055f06 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
12:33 dalek roast: Why not check exhaustive for all of the Perl5Var cases
12:33 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1055f06249
12:34 dalek roast: a528442 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
12:34 dalek roast: Don't need to check for '$*' twice
12:34 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/a5284426f3
12:35 tadzik better check twice, to be sure :)
12:36 nyuszika7h joined #perl6
12:37 dalek roast: c1d1a44 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
12:37 dalek roast: Grrr you can't "todo" throws_like tests (almost certain you get TODO's passed)
12:37 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c1d1a44f4e
12:38 lizmat time for a break, cycling&
12:46 rindolf joined #perl6
12:48 clkao win 22
12:48 timotimo is that the anti-version of catch 22?
12:48 clkao lol
12:48 masak no, it's Windows from the future.
12:49 JimmyZ is windows 98 from the future?
12:50 JimmyZ and windows 7 from the past
12:50 timotimo JimmyZ: that's the biggest y2k bug ever right there :)
12:51 timotimo in 80 years, windows 95 will make a big comebacks onto quantum computers solar-system wide.
12:51 JimmyZ ;)
12:52 masak JimmyZ: Windows 22 (also known as "win22") was released on November 2024.
12:52 masak ;)
12:52 JimmyZ and windows 2003?
12:52 masak March 201023.
12:52 JimmyZ ;)
12:53 kamen44 joined #perl6
13:00 * masak still chuckles at #python's "NO LOL | NO PROJECT EULER" /topic
13:00 timotimo hehe
13:00 masak it's like in Malmö central station, we had a sign "no balloons".
13:00 masak someone tweeted "what is this, East Germany?"
13:02 yoleaux joined #perl6
13:13 sidus joined #perl6
13:13 masak sidus: greetings.
13:15 FROGGS timotimo: from 13.09. to 16.09. a night in hotel acasa is 99€, because there is the Automobilmesse >.<
13:15 ajr joined #perl6
13:15 timotimo bleh.
13:16 timotimo that's very expensive.
13:16 FROGGS it is
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14:08 * masak .oO( hotel acausal )
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15:35 TimToady nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say($chr.ord ~~ 'A'.ord .. 'Z'.ord)
15:35 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say($chr.o"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
15:36 jnthn Double fail. No ranges, and no methods on strings. :)
15:36 TimToady nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say(ord($chr) ~~ ord('A') .. ord('Z'))
15:36 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say(ord($c"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
15:37 TimToady ah well
15:37 [Coke] (REST) I call my crappy apis RESTful. they're RESTy. RESTlike. RESTalicious. (but not usually really REST)
15:37 [Coke] (backscrollin, across the universe..)
15:37 TimToady RESTiferous, most of 'em are
15:38 timotimo "well RESTed"
15:39 geekosaur resting gently among the perls
15:40 * TimToady tries to avoid picturing geekosaur on the half shell
15:40 xinming joined #perl6
15:45 TimToady npr: .say for < $< $> >
15:45 camelia niecza v24-88-g1f87209, pugs: OUTPUT«$<␤$>␤»
15:45 camelia ..rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«$<$>␤»
15:45 [Coke] ah, shit. :(
15:45 TimToady looks like rakudo is odd-person-out
15:46 jnthn I blame the guy who messed around loads with quoting last :P
15:51 daxim brrt is my man!
15:51 daxim let me chime in, 8 hours too late
15:52 daxim fielding on his blog made it clear that the maturity model does not apply - if there's no hypermedia, it isn't rest. basta
15:53 jnthn Fair enough.
15:53 jnthn Given they're *constraints* I guess you'd expect it to be that way.
15:54 daxim exactly! … but it's a complicated topic  :(
15:54 jnthn *nod*
15:55 daxim I'm doing my part by educating the local developer scene, touring meetup
15:55 crab2313 joined #perl6
15:55 daxim learning from examples works best
15:56 perigrin [Coke]: RESTifarian?
15:58 MilkmanDan joined #perl6
15:59 geekosaur the RESTaurant
16:01 [Coke] perigrin: giveitaREST
16:02 jnap RESTinpeace?
16:02 perigrin [Coke]: when it comes to web interactions I find it hard to RESTrain myself.
16:02 diakopter seems everyone's a terroREST nowadays
16:02 MilkmanDan Oh lawd, what did I walk into...
16:03 jnthn #perl6
16:03 perigrin what jnthn said
16:03 geekosaur shoulda RESTed first?
16:05 diakopter jnthn: which web scheme is fairest of them all
16:06 jnthn diakopter: your mom's scheme, of course...
16:07 * diakopter arrests you
16:13 TimToady MilkmanDan: er, welcome!
16:13 locsmif joined #perl6
16:15 TimToady pay not attention to the rest of these jokers...er...oops
16:15 TimToady *no
16:16 cognominal joined #perl6
16:16 TimToady MilkmanDan: we do, occasionally, have on-topic conversations here...
16:16 perigrin the REST of the time ...
16:17 TimToady it's just that, since Perl 6 is designed to interface with everything else in the world, we often end up talking about...everything else...
16:21 TimToady MilkmanDan: did you have any questions about Perl 6?
16:22 cognominal joined #perl6
16:22 MilkmanDan TimToady: Just wondering the state of the new onion, really.
16:22 MilkmanDan But I think I've gotten a good enough idea from http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2012/12/the​-implementation-of-perl-5-versus-perl-6.html
16:24 TimToady um
16:25 TimToady a lot has changed since December
16:25 TimToady not all of it with the approval of chromatic++ :)
16:25 FROGGS hehe
16:25 FROGGS >.<
16:26 MilkmanDan heh
16:26 MilkmanDan Fair enough.
16:26 MilkmanDan I got there via http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=1047676 though.
16:27 MilkmanDan My original question was "I wonder why there are no mentions of perl6 at http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/ "
16:28 MilkmanDan I had assumed that it had gotten along a lot farther since last I looked, and you know what that means....
16:28 TimToady well, the JVM port isn't really expected to be all that performant initially, though it's encouraging that in at least one case it was faster
16:29 TimToady moarvm is expected to be performant, but it's not quite self-hosted yet
16:29 TimToady so I expect you'll see a lot more benchmarking in the coming year
16:32 MilkmanDan nod
16:34 MilkmanDan Parrot doesn't seem to be ready for production either, from what I gather.  Not so?
16:39 TimToady Parrot...was not a success story...
16:40 MilkmanDan So I gathered.
16:40 TimToady except in the Edisonian sense of finding out ways not to invent the lightbulb
16:40 TimToady well, this is overstated a hair, since we're still using it to bootstrap other implementations
16:41 MilkmanDan Also there doesn't seem to be a Learning Perl for 6, unless the git project that hasn't been touched in 9 months is already complete.
16:41 MilkmanDan er, complete and intended to serve.
16:41 spider-mario joined #perl6
16:41 TimToady a "new camel" is in the works, but it'll take a while
16:42 MilkmanDan I'd be more at the llama stage. :)
16:42 * diakopter is more at the pupa stage
16:43 pmichaud morning, #perl6
16:43 moritz \o *
16:43 TimToady o/
16:44 FROGGS o/
16:44 FROGGS TimToady: who is writing it?
16:44 grondilu MilkmanDan: the synopsyses are not too bad a way to learn Perl 6, imho.  They are decently well written.
16:44 jnthn o/
16:45 TimToady FROGGS: TheDamian is my co-author.
16:45 FROGGS cool
16:45 TimToady still mostly at the outline stage though
16:46 FROGGS jnthn: I'm in frankfurt from friday evening (20:30) to monday morning... when do you plan to arrive/depart?
16:47 FROGGS TimToady: yeah, if I would intend to write a book it will most likely only reach that stage
16:47 TimToady takes a bit of OCD to successfuly write a book
16:48 FROGGS OCD?
16:48 TimToady obsessive compulsive disorder
16:48 jnthn FROGGS: I don't (can't) know about arrival yet
16:48 FROGGS I know LSD fwiw, but these are not the 70s
16:48 TimToady since my OCD has to fit in with all my other syndromes, I have to work on emphasizing that aspect when I flip into writing mode
16:48 SamuraiJack joined #perl6
16:48 jnthn FROGGS: I'll arrive on Friday at some point. It depends whether I end up teaching on the Friday, and where I'd be coming from.
16:49 FROGGS yeah
16:49 jnthn FROGGS: Probably I depart Monday.
16:50 FROGGS it took like 5 months to write an article for the german $foo magazine, it would take ages to write a book, and it wouldn't easy to read I fear
16:51 FROGGS brb
16:52 TimToady at the moment I'm OCDing more on my CJK character database, but I only have 818 characters left to do, out of roughly 70,000, so I can (I hope) let that go soon.
16:54 TimToady well, right now I'd better obsess about getting my poor kitty some catfood...
17:01 gdey_ joined #perl6
17:03 Targen joined #perl6
17:05 jnthn back in a couple of hours
17:05 jnthn &
17:05 MilkmanDan grondilu: Not bad, for a beginner?  Or not bad for someone who is already working in p5?
17:14 grondilu MilkmanDan: I'm not sure what you mean by "beginner".  I meant that it's not bad for someone who has a good culure in programming.
17:14 djanatyn joined #perl6
17:15 grondilu the synopsys are a good way to learn perl6 for anyone who is already used to read perl5 doc, that what I meant.
17:15 colomon nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr le 'Z')
17:15 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:15 colomon nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr && $chr le 'Z')
17:16 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:16 colomon nqp: my $chr := 'G'; say('A' le $chr && $chr le 'Z')
17:16 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:16 MilkmanDan grondilu: Ok.  So, closer to the camel book than the llama.
17:16 * colomon doesn't know if someone else pointed that out along the way, ETOOMUCHBACKLOG
17:16 * colomon is also suffering from ETOOMUCHISETHEBY
17:17 timotimo joined #perl6
17:19 benabik colomon: I don't think the comparisons are supposed to chain in NQP.
17:19 benabik src/NQP/Grammar.pm:691: NQP::Grammar.O(':prec<m=>, :assoc<left>',  '%relational');
17:21 grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say(0 le 'Z')
17:21 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:21 grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr))
17:21 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say('A' le"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
17:21 grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say('A' le $chr)
17:21 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:21 grondilu nqp: my $chr := 'g'; say(1 le 'Z')
17:21 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:22 benabik grondilu: Exactly.  'A' le $chr le 'Z' is ('A' le $chr) le 'Z', which is probably not what you meant.
17:23 benabik Perhaps the relationals should be nonassoc rather than left.
17:23 abnorman joined #perl6
17:23 benabik (Alternatively, chaining, which is more convenient.)
17:24 grondilu indeed, order relations are *never* associative, are they?
17:24 * grondilu kind of remember this from his maths course, long ago
17:25 benabik It's a type problem.  < : 'a -> 'a -> Bool.  So unless you're trying to order booleans, it's naturally non-associative.
17:26 * lizmat is back
17:26 grondilu an order relation is:  reflexive, antisymetric and transitive.  But *not* associative.
17:26 grondilu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_theory
17:26 grondilu so yeah, it should be non-associative.
17:27 benabik Or chaining, which is a non-standard associativity.  (a < b < c --> a < b && b < c, but evals b once)
17:29 grondilu yeah but that's different.  we were discussing about the fact that < was defined as :assoc<left>, which is wrong as I understand it.
17:30 grondilu when you write a < b < c, you actually use a ternary operator, don't you?
17:30 grondilu I mean it's not the same operator at all.
17:34 grondilu (because < as a binary operator is not associative, so a < b < c can not be defined.  You must define a ternary operator that uses the same symbol)
17:34 TimToady well, it's really a variadic higher-order function that alternates comparands with comparators
17:35 grondilu How does one define a ternary infix in Perl 6?
17:36 TimToady by cheating
17:36 grondilu sub infix:<a b>($x, $y, $z) {...}  # like that?
17:36 MilkmanDan left #perl6
17:36 grondilu std: sub infix:<a b>($x, $y, $z) {...}  # like that?
17:36 camelia std 06636e4: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:â�¤  $x is declared but not used at /tmp/HHqisw6VMp line 1:â�¤------> [32msub infix:<a b>([33mâ��[31m$x, $y, $z) {...}  # like that?[0mâ�¤  $y is declared but not used at /tmp/HHqisw6VMp line 1:â�¤------> [32msub infix:<a b>($x, [33mâ��[31m$y, $z) {…
17:36 benabik ?? !! is implemented as token infix:<?? !!> { '??' <O(prec)> '!!' }
17:36 TimToady I suppose that could be supported, if we were interested in encouraging ternary operators :)
17:36 benabik I think you'd have to use `is parsed`.
17:37 grondilu TimToady: I think it's the most logical way to define a < b < c
17:37 TimToady I don't; I already said what I think it is above.
17:37 benabik grondilu: But then what happens when you try a < b < c < d
17:37 diakopter chained comparison needs the same compiler trick as chained ||
17:37 grondilu benabik: oh yeah, good point.
17:37 Rix joined #perl6
17:39 TimToady diakopter: except || degenerates gracefully to binops, while < doesn't
17:39 TimToady the chain ops differ from list associative ops in allowing the operators to differ
17:40 TimToady a || b ^^ c is not list associative
17:40 abnorman joined #perl6
17:40 TimToady but a < b != c is chaining
17:41 TimToady catfoodr &
17:43 grondilu so yeah that's the higher order function stuff.  TimToady's right I guess, which is not too surprising :)
17:43 * benabik makes sure that changing it to non-associative doesn't break things.
17:43 colomon benabik: I agree, but someone up-log was trying to chain them.
17:44 benabik colomon: Well, I'm not sure what magic is needed to make them chain, but I can at least break the code in a useful way.  :-)
17:47 lizmat Seems it's going to be hard to get a hotel room in Frankfurt around 13/16 September
17:48 lizmat so I booked 4 extra 2xsingle rooms at the http://www.booking.com/hotel/de/arena.en-gb.html
17:48 lizmat which is around the corner from the venue
17:50 lizmat so the first 10 attendees of the Rakudo and NQP Internals Workshop will have a place to stay and need not book anything
17:50 lizmat unless they want to arrive before the 13th or leave after the 16th
17:52 timotimo ooooooh
17:52 benabik lizmat++
17:52 timotimo i booked a hotel already
17:52 timotimo in the "hotel tourist"
17:52 lizmat can you cancel it still ?
17:53 timotimo yes, but it'll cost me full price
17:53 lizmat I mean without paying anything ?
17:53 lizmat ah, then you can't cancel  :-)
17:53 timotimo nope
17:53 lizmat is it far from the venue ?
17:54 benabik nqp passes self-tests with non-assoc relationals.  Now building Rakudo.
17:54 gdey joined #perl6
17:56 lowpro30 joined #perl6
17:57 gdey joined #perl6
17:57 lizmat timotimo: looks like 4 stops with the S-Bahn, that is, if it goes into Hbf
17:58 lizmat Let's see how the number of attendees works out
17:59 lizmat if there is room in the Arena Hotel, then you can decide whether to stay there or go to Hotel Tourist after all
18:01 FROGGS how much is a night in Hotel Arena?
18:02 Mouq joined #perl6
18:02 FROGGS I pay 80 eur in Hotel Tourist, and it is the cheapest I could find (in case you dont want to share your toilet with others...)
18:06 pernatiy joined #perl6
18:06 berekuk joined #perl6
18:12 wingfold joined #perl6
18:14 lizmat FROGGS: did you book also already ?
18:14 FROGGS yes
18:14 lizmat shite  (excusez le mot)
18:14 lizmat at Tourist ?
18:14 FROGGS right
18:14 lizmat non-refundable, I assume
18:15 lizmat Arena would come to ~ 75 euro if you share with someone
18:16 FROGGS Alle Stornierungen werden mit dem Gesamtbetrag berechnet.Änderungen, die bis zu 30 Tage vor Anreisedatum erfolgen, sind kostenfrei.Änderungen, die verspätet erfolgen, sowie Nichtanreisen werden mit dem Gesamtbetrag berechnet.
18:16 FROGGS :o(
18:16 Mouq What is $*W?
18:16 lizmat ok, I guess you will be hotelmates with timotimo
18:16 FROGGS Mouq: the World
18:17 lizmat src/Perl6/World.nqp
18:17 Mouq Ahh, cool. Thank you
18:17 FROGGS lizmat: yeah, but we have separate rooms
18:18 thou joined #perl6
18:19 lizmat well, I hope that nobody else has booked yet...
18:20 lizmat if so, we should have ample rooms
18:21 lizmat in any case, I've just decided that the hotel will be on my bill anyway
18:21 lizmat so I'll refund you and timotimo for the stay in Tourist
18:22 lizmat so that we are all equal in that respect at the RaNIW
18:22 FROGGS O.o
18:22 FROGGS wow
18:22 lizmat is that a plan?
18:23 lizmat I'd rather invest in the Perl community this way, then giving TPF money  :-)
18:23 FROGGS that is an awesome offer, but I have no problem paying my room, really
18:23 FROGGS why that?
18:23 lizmat well, in that case, I won't refund you  :-)
18:23 FROGGS *g*
18:24 ssutch joined #perl6
18:24 lizmat because I feel it is very important to have a smooth / cosy / intense / workshop / social / hackathon
18:25 lizmat hopefully, everybody at the workshop will in the future contribute to Rakudo / NQP
18:25 lizmat knowing each other better helps a lot, in that respect
18:25 FROGGS true
18:25 lizmat I just didn't expect hotels to be so scarce already
18:26 lizmat brb
18:26 FROGGS that is why I already come on friday at half past eight in the evening, and leave monday at nine
18:26 FROGGS lizmat: there is a car show at that time, hotel prizes are almost twice as much as usual
18:29 fhelmberger joined #perl6
18:32 abnorman joined #perl6
18:32 dalek nqp: 0c91ec7 | benabik++ | src/NQP/Grammar.nqp:
18:32 dalek nqp: Relational operators are non-associative
18:32 dalek nqp:
18:32 dalek nqp: As colomon++ pointed out, 'A' le 'g' le 'Z' evaluates to true because
18:32 dalek nqp: infix:<le> is left associative and 1 le 'Z'.  While the appropriate
18:32 dalek nqp: chaining behavior a la full perl 6 would be more helpful, marking the
18:32 dalek nqp: relationals as non-associative at least prevents your code from doing
18:32 dalek nqp: the wrong thing.
18:32 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0c91ec73b8
18:35 dalek specs: 33d795b | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
18:35 dalek specs: disallow direct assignment to $/
18:35 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/33d795b829
18:36 timotimo lizmat: wow, that offer is very generous; you are going to pay for my cancellation *as well as* the hotel room close to the venue?
18:36 lizmat well, if there is no more room for you in the Arena Hotel, I'm going to ask you to use your room at the Tourist
18:36 lizmat so don't cancel
18:36 timotimo okay
18:36 lizmat there is no point
18:37 timotimo right. if i don't cancel, it's no difference for money, but a negative impact on flexibility
18:37 lizmat indeed
18:38 timotimo that's crazy cool :) thanks a lot
18:38 timotimo i'll gladly accept that offer
18:38 lizmat you're welcome  :-)
18:38 benabik .oO( Now I just need someone to pay for a trans-Atlantic flight, and I'm set.  ;-) )
18:39 FROGGS *g*
18:39 lizmat TimToady: as I understand <special_variable>, this should already happen
18:40 lizmat but it doesn't: is that related to LTM not working at the moment?
18:40 benabik Where's YAPC::NA 2014?
18:40 lizmat Sofia, Bulgaria
18:40 FROGGS that is EU
18:40 lizmat oops, YAPC::EI
18:41 lizmat NA is in Orland, FL
18:41 lizmat Orlando
18:41 benabik It's not easy for me to attend ::NA, so ::EU seems extremely unlikely.  :)
18:42 TimToady lizmat: you mean the $/ = test?  beats me...I just write the spec
18:42 TimToady was just catching the spec up to what std already does
18:44 lizmat indeed  :-)
18:58 * jnthn back
18:59 lizmat jnthn: fyi, I've already booked a hotel in Frankfurt from Fri/Mon
19:00 jnthn lizmat: For mig?
19:00 jnthn *me
19:00 lizmat yes
19:00 jnthn \o/
19:00 jnthn Cool
19:00 lizmat well, if you want it
19:00 lizmat :-)
19:00 jnthn Sure :)
19:00 lizmat the hotel is around the corner from the venue
19:01 jnthn The Monday end of it is easy. The Friday is more likely to be free for me too so I can arrive in time for some dinner rather than flying in on the evening.
19:01 jnthn Though don't know for a bit.
19:02 * jnthn ticks "be on a podcast" off on his list of accomplishments
19:02 timotimo \o/
19:02 FROGGS podcast? where?
19:06 jnthn FROGGS: Hm, not sure where, I shoulda asked that :)
19:06 jnthn Nothing about Perl stuff, though. More about what I do at $dayjob :)
19:07 FROGGS still... :o)
19:07 FROGGS are they google-able? do they have a name?
19:09 jnthn It should be up on Monday, I'll probably tweet it or something... :)
19:10 FROGGS hmmm, if you are going to post that on facebook than I have to get my wife to stalk you
19:11 * FROGGS has no facebook account
19:11 * lizmat neither, but woolfy does
19:11 lizmat .oO( one in the family is enough for the NSA to follow us)
19:12 timotimo lizmat: is there a list i need to put my name into to be officially "in" the workshop?
19:12 lizmat you're on the list :-)
19:14 lizmat the list for now: jnthn, lizmat (woolfy),timotimo,FROGGS,moritz,[Coke],Roland Schmitz
19:14 lizmat did I forget anybody already ?
19:15 FROGGS dunno
19:15 jnthn yay, I'm on the list \o/
19:15 woolfy jnthn++
19:15 FROGGS hi woolfy
19:15 jnthn woolfy! \o/
19:16 woolfy no, there's no woolfy here, just a bleak and sweaty shadow with food poisoning and pneumonia!  :-)
19:16 jnthn whoa!
19:17 jnthn Hope you're better soon. That sounds like a nasty combo...
19:17 * lizmat was only sick for ~ 48 hours coming back from Kiev
19:17 woolfy so nasty that cognominal left the room...  :-)
19:17 FROGGS ohh ó.ò
19:17 FROGGS hehe
19:18 woolfy Hey, positive thing: I lost 5,5 kg in 5 days!  Dieticiens
19:18 woolfy s dream
19:18 woolfy hmm
19:18 lizmat tadzik expressed interested in attending, afaik
19:18 * jnthn managed to escape getting sick from Kiev
19:18 lizmat tadzik ?
19:19 * lizmat wonders if the sick people were the ones who went to basement in Mafia the last night
19:19 lizmat not all of the people there got sick, but all the sick people were there, afaik
19:20 woolfy All the sick people were there: lizmat, woolfy, sno (and his wife), markov, leont
19:20 woolfy Not sick was riba
19:21 zwut00 joined #perl6
19:25 tadzik lizmat: oh yes, I am interested :)
19:25 lizmat so, should I add you to the list ?
19:25 timotimo wow, get better soon, woolfy!
19:26 tadzik of course
19:26 tadzik what dates are those, again?
19:26 lizmat consider yourself added
19:26 tadzik I should probably make travel arrangements
19:26 lizmat 14/15 sep
19:26 lizmat better arrive on 13, leave on 16 I guess
19:26 tadzik yeah
19:26 lizmat rooms already booked (if you don't mind sharing)
19:27 tadzik oooh!
19:27 moritz lizmat: I'm not sure if leont expressed interest
19:27 tadzik Thank you! I never mind sharing :)
19:27 * timotimo is cool with sharing, doesn't snore and is friendly to people and animals
19:27 woolfy timotimo: thanks (on medication now, will get better soon)
19:27 lizmat I'll check with leont
19:27 fhelmberger joined #perl6
19:28 moritz lizmat: and maybe sno
19:28 moritz (he wanted to hack on nativecall or an XS replacement)
19:28 tadzik fwiw, I was not in mafia and I was not sick :)
19:29 * moritz was not in the mafia, and now has a bad cough, but I also had a cough before I went to Kiev
19:29 lizmat I will ask sno this weekend at the FrosCON
19:29 fhelmberger_ joined #perl6
19:30 lizmat pmichaud: all our strength wished to you in this difficult time
19:31 lowpro30_ joined #perl6
19:31 woolfy pmichaud: my thoughts are with you
19:32 woolfy Can we help?
19:34 FROGGS ohh
19:34 FROGGS pmichaud: my sincerest condolences
19:36 FROGGS :/
19:40 jnap1 joined #perl6
19:45 timotimo pmichaud: i'm sorry for your loss :(
19:46 colomon pmichaud: like woolfy said, if there's anything we can do to help, just let us know.  :(
19:55 Tene pmichaud: My condolences for your loss.
19:57 colomon lizmat++
20:03 pjcj_ joined #perl6
20:10 pmichaud thanks, all.
20:11 dalek rakudo/nom: c772e72 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
20:11 dalek rakudo/nom: Only need to check on variables longer than *2* characters
20:11 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c772e726aa
20:11 lizmat hugme hug pmichaud
20:11 * hugme hugs pmichaud
20:12 dalek nqp: 92e2858 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
20:12 dalek nqp: use nqp::sprintf for parrot backend also
20:12 dalek nqp:
20:12 dalek nqp: We used it for JVM only, but by adding nqp::sprintfdirectives, which parses
20:12 dalek nqp: a format string to return the directive count, it is ready to use.
20:12 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/92e2858b54
20:12 timotimo FROGGS: another piece of good news for the changelog
20:13 FROGGS true
20:13 jnthn FROGGS: We get no regressions from that?
20:13 FROGGS no
20:14 dalek rakudo/nom: 083e3f2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (3 files):
20:14 dalek rakudo/nom: use nqp::sprintf, Hash.fmt needed special-casing though
20:14 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/083e3f2d66
20:15 jnthn FROGGS: yay
20:15 FROGGS :o)
20:16 hummeleBop joined #perl6
20:16 * tadzik hugs pmichaud
20:25 moritz FROGGS: does that mean that parakudo now handles bigints in %d formats?
20:25 FROGGS moritz: yes
20:25 moritz \o/
20:25 jnthn \o/
20:26 FROGGS I'm currently rebuilding all in order to strip #?rakudo.parrot todo's
20:26 moritz r: printf '%d', 2**65
20:26 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«0»
20:26 moritz not yet rebuilt
20:26 colomon FROGGS++
20:26 FROGGS :o)
20:26 jnthn convergence++
20:26 jnthn Better still, we can use the same sprintf impl on MoarVM :)
20:27 FROGGS jnthn: yeah, an old copy of it is already in there
20:27 timotimo all our visions of cross-platforminity are coming true!
20:27 FROGGS as seen by the bt from yesterday
20:27 FROGGS *g*
20:28 FROGGS and guess why I do all this?
20:28 FROGGS I need it for v5 :P
20:28 lizmat :-)
20:28 moritz :-)
20:28 lizmat No registered operation handler for 'sprintfaddargumenthandler'
20:28 lizmat :-(
20:28 moritz lizmat: did you update nqp?
20:29 FROGGS and reconfigure
20:29 lizmat shouldn't that happen automatically when I do a perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot ?
20:29 lizmat ok, i'll nuke nqp dir and do it again
20:29 tadzik rakudobrew build all \o/
20:30 jnthn Was NQP_REVISION bumped?
20:30 tadzik ^C \o/
20:30 moritz yes
20:30 lizmat Note: checking out '2013.07-98-g92e2858'.
20:31 lizmat HEAD is now at 92e2858
20:31 lizmat seems ok
20:31 tadzik fun fact: two first characters of the revisions are the same
20:31 tadzik 2013.07-87-g9706494 vs 2013.07-98-g92e2858
20:31 jnthn g is no revision char :P
20:31 tadzik really? :(
20:32 jnthn It means git, I think
20:32 moritz I think it stands for 'git#
20:32 moritz s/#/'/
20:32 jnthn I mean, the sha-1 is in hex... :)
20:32 tadzik oh well, it's a little bit more than hex can handle :)
20:32 jnthn g is a bit big for hex :)
20:32 lizmat .oO( we need BIGhex )
20:32 donaldh joined #perl6
20:33 lizmat bigint just doesn't cut it anymore in the modern world  :-)
20:33 dalek roast: 165aab2 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
20:33 dalek roast: unfudge sprintf tests
20:33 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/165aab2d34
20:34 lizmat there goes JVM below 99% again  :-)
20:34 moritz :(
20:34 moritz oh, but that's because parakudo goes up, right?
20:35 FROGGS right
20:35 dalek rakudo/nom: 44ba8ad | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ChangeLog:
20:35 dalek rakudo/nom: printf %d for bigints works on parakudo
20:35 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/44ba8ad0a4
20:35 * FROGGS runs spectest again just because he is paranoid
20:35 lizmat No registered operation handler for 'sprintfaddargumenthandler
20:35 lizmat again  :-(
20:36 lizmat guess I'll nuke the install dir to be sure
20:36 FROGGS can somebody else try?
20:37 * tadzik tries
20:37 moritz I'm building on jvm right now
20:37 tadzik parakudo's still building
20:37 FROGGS there is nothing unpushed related to sprintf
20:38 donaldh hai o/
20:38 FROGGS hi donaldh
20:38 donaldh try ?  latest commits ?
20:38 FROGGS yeah
20:38 donaldh nqp is looking good for me, just building rakudo
20:40 * moritz tries too
20:41 masak moritz: got another "Forbidden" from irclog.
20:42 masak FROGGS: just saw http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-08-21#i_7479324
20:42 masak FROGGS: I agree that's not useful, and should always be two args for hashes.
20:42 masak FROGGS: feel free to enforce that.
20:43 FROGGS masak: later there was a discussion with TimToady, and we agreed to pass the key only if there is just one sprintf directive
20:45 FROGGS masak: here, http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-08-21#i_7479412
20:45 moritz masak: are you behind a large NAT?
20:45 lizmat seems to get past stage pir now
20:45 * FROGGS crosses fingers
20:45 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'printf "%d\n", 2**65'
20:45 lizmat 36893488147419103232
20:45 lizmat yeah!
20:46 FROGGS \o/
20:46 lizmat running spectest now
20:46 donaldh is there an eval bot for jvm rakudo ?
20:46 FROGGS donaldh: not that I know
20:46 FROGGS camelia: help
20:46 camelia FROGGS: Usage: <(nqp-jvm|star|pugs|nqp|std|niecza​|rakudo|b|nom|npr|n|r|perl6|prn|rn​|p|rnp|nrp|pnr|rpn|p6|nr)(?^::\s) $perl6_program>
20:46 FROGGS no
20:47 timotimo hm, it seems to me we got rid of the last blockers recently, no?
20:47 moritz lizmat: I get the same error on JVM
20:47 FROGGS timotimo: what blockers?
20:47 timotimo for getting a jvm evalbot
20:48 lizmat moritz: seems that nuking the install dir made it work for me
20:48 FROGGS lizmat: I had that once too, but I dunno what enforces that
20:48 lizmat I guess at some point it tries to use the old nqp?
20:49 FROGGS hmmm, next time we could check if something still has an old mtime
20:50 FROGGS t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t                                (Wstat: 0 Tests: 41 Failed: 7)
20:50 FROGGS Failed tests:  2, 4, 6, 20, 33, 39, 41
20:50 FROGGS the rest is fine on my box
20:51 masak moritz: possibly. I am in a hotel.
20:52 masak FROGGS: at first glance, that feels like a bad idea.
20:52 masak FROGGS: for the simple reason that that's not how sprintf rolls, so neither should .fmt
20:52 lizmat FROGGS: that is a long standing pb
20:52 lizmat those tests take 20 seconds when they shouldn't
20:52 masak FROGGS: if we let .fmt do that, then .fmt shoulders some of the logic of sprintf (which is bad), having to parse the directives itself.
20:53 FROGGS masak: it does not parse 'em
20:53 lizmat it indicates a problem in the socket code, or a problem in the test
20:53 FROGGS masak: but true, in this case Hash decides what it is going to pass to sprintf in case of a .fmt call
20:54 lizmat intriguing, after the rebuild all of my ico related errors are gone
20:55 FROGGS lizmat: you're welcome :P
20:55 lizmat so, spectest clean
20:55 FROGGS awesome
20:55 lizmat *icu
20:55 xenoterracide joined #perl6
20:55 FROGGS the IO-Socket-INET tests are clean too?
20:55 lizmat no
20:55 FROGGS k
20:55 lizmat the same 7 failures
20:56 FROGGS I'd try to fix them if it wasn't that late already
20:57 lizmat ok, maybe the 5 second boundary is too small
20:57 donaldh MacOS, JVM, No registered operation handler for 'sprintfdirectives'
20:58 donaldh Just cleaning everything, nuking install dirs, etc.
20:58 FROGGS rm -rf install && cd parrot && make install && perl ConfigureJVM.pl && make install
20:59 donaldh jvm :-)
20:59 FROGGS ahh, ehh, yeah *g*
20:59 dalek roast: e95d9dd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t:
20:59 dalek roast: Give 10 seconds time instead of 5
20:59 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/e95d9ddeb0
20:59 lizmat with this change, INET passes when run by itself for me
21:00 lizmat running it as part of the spectest now
21:01 lizmat maybe I should increase the time some more if run in a parallel spectest
21:01 FROGGS lizmat++
21:01 FROGGS same on my box
21:01 jnap joined #perl6
21:01 FROGGS we have a clean test suite \o/
21:02 lizmat not sure if it is clean with TEST_JOBS=8
21:02 FROGGS meh
21:02 FROGGS only 4 here :o(
21:02 FROGGS but hey, it is still an awesome laptop :o9
21:02 FROGGS :o)
21:04 * timotimo has 2 cores in his laptop and trying to compile a rakudo will invariably get the temperature up to 90degC and the cores underclocked to not melt
21:05 moritz setting compilation still fails here
21:05 moritz after 'git clean -xdf' in both rakudo and nqp
21:05 lizmat moritz: did you nuke the install dir ?
21:05 timotimo it's really annoying that "auto" will only go up to "fullspeed", which is about half as fast as "disengaged"
21:07 donaldh r: %*ENV<AAAAA> = 'aaaaa'; say(%*ENV.keys)
21:07 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«MANPATH PERLBREW_VERSION PERLBREW_PERL SHELL TERM USER LS_COLORS PERLBREW_BASHRC_VERSION PERLBREW_ROOT MANPATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW MAIL PATH PWD LANG PERLBREW_HOME PATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW SHLVL HOME PERLBREW_MANPATH PERLBREW_PATH LOGNAME _ OLDPWD␤»
21:08 donaldh r: %*ENV<AAAAA> = 'aaaaa'; say(%*ENV<AAAAA>)
21:08 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«aaaaa␤»
21:08 donaldh weird huh?
21:08 lizmat %*ENV is special, check src/core/terms
21:08 lizmat I wouldn't be surprised that keys is not updated
21:08 donaldh Why special. Broken special?
21:08 lizmat it's also not VM agnostic, so could be a pb on one VM only
21:08 donaldh I get same on JVM.
21:09 moritz r: %*ENV<AAAAA> = 'aaaaa'; say(%*ENV.keys.sort)
21:09 lizmat FROGGS: parallel spectest now also clean for me
21:09 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«HOME LANG LOGNAME LS_COLORS MAIL MANPATH MANPATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW OLDPWD PATH PATH_WITHOUT_PERLBREW PERLBREW_BASHRC_VERSION PERLBREW_HOME PERLBREW_MANPATH PERLBREW_PATH PERLBREW_PERL PERLBREW_ROOT PERLBREW_VERSION PWD SHELL SHLVL TERM USER _␤»
21:09 FROGGS lizmat: that is pretty cool
21:09 donaldh Also, no point in specialness on JVM.
21:09 FROGGS I'm eager to see the module smoke results
21:09 donaldh I assume it's special because it's maintaining parrot's env ?
21:09 donaldh or other reasons?
21:10 lizmat for one, it only installs proxies for the keys addad after the env is read
21:11 lizmat jnthn would probably know more
21:12 lizmat but it looks like the enviter is not updated by the proxy
21:12 lizmat otoh, I could be talking out of the side of my neck
21:13 jnthn The Env thing on Parrot is actually not a normal Hash, but rather an Env PMC. Shoving stuff in it should update the environment.
21:13 jnthn I think that's why the proxy. To update that.
21:15 lizmat r: say %*ENV<HOME>; %*ENV.delete("HOME"); say %*ENV<HOME>; say %*ENV.keys.grep( { m/HOME/ } )
21:15 camelia rakudo e84dda: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval␤(Any)␤PERLBREW_HOME HOME␤»
21:15 lizmat delete also doesn't remove it from keys
21:15 TimToady doesn't seem like the right strategy for JVM, if JVM considers env immutable; we'd need something more like our own %*ENV that gets passed to exec at the last moment
21:16 lizmat so apparently changes to %*ENV are not propagates to .keys / .values on %*ENV
21:16 lizmat although the changes *are* carried out
21:18 TimToady in any case, "my %*ENV" is a different variable, and making all these variables proxy to PROCESS::<%ENV> is gonna go terribly wrong
21:18 * lizmat is tired and sad, sleep&
21:18 FROGGS lizmat: sleep well
21:21 timotimo Stage parse      : 653.470
21:21 timotimo time for sleep :|
21:21 FROGGS gnight
21:27 dalek v5: 9d6ae74 | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
21:27 dalek v5: status update (new nqp+rakudo revision)
21:27 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/9d6ae74b16
21:27 dalek v5: 9e01b03 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
21:27 dalek v5: status update after nqp/rakudo update
21:27 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/9e01b033ed
21:28 FROGGS gnight @all
21:31 donaldh No registered operation handler for 'sprintfdirectives'
21:31 donaldh we don't seem to have a sprintfdirectives on JVM
21:31 FROGGS ohh
21:31 FROGGS true
21:31 FROGGS hold on
21:34 dalek nqp: 0e552b1 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
21:34 dalek nqp: added nqp::sprintfdirectives for jvm backend, donaldh++
21:34 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/0e552b1025
21:35 donaldh thx FROGGS++
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: 9fcbf53 | (Tobias Leich)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: update nqp revision
21:35 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9fcbf53d13
21:42 donaldh for %*ENV.keys -> $x { %*ENV.delete($x) }; say +%*ENV; say +%*ENV.keys; say +%*ENV.values
21:42 donaldh r: for %*ENV.keys -> $x { %*ENV.delete($x) }; say +%*ENV; say +%*ENV.keys; say +%*ENV.values
21:42 camelia rakudo 44ba8a: OUTPUT«23␤23␤23␤»
21:43 abnorman joined #perl6
21:45 donaldh r: for %*ENV.keys -> $x { %*ENV.delete($x) }; for %*ENV.keys -> $x { say %*ENV<$x> }
21:45 camelia rakudo 44ba8a: OUTPUT«(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤​(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(​Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤(Any)␤»
21:50 * TimToady thinks in the P6 model, PROCESS::<%*ENV> should be considere immutable, and you set "temp %*ENV" to have a local environment that your children (dynamic and exec) will inherit
21:52 TimToady PROCESS<%*ENV> can be shared by different interpreters with different GLOBAL packages, so at minimum, to preserve sanity in something like an apache setup, we should copy PROCESS::<%*ENV> to GLOBAL::<%*ENV> before we modify it
21:53 TimToady but "temp %*ENV" already makes a dynamically scoped copy, so that's probably good enough
21:54 TimToady so I suspect PROCESS::<%*ENV> should throw an exception if you try to modify it in place
21:56 TimToady note that S02:3010 allows implementations to provide writeable PROCESS variables, but I don't think %*ENV should be one of them
21:56 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#line_3010
21:57 TimToady $*PID isn't writeable either...
21:58 TimToady donaldh: does this make sense to you?
21:59 araujo joined #perl6
21:59 donaldh TimToady: yes. immutable++
21:59 TimToady at least, the top one
22:00 TimToady dynamic %*ENV can be mutable, maybe
22:00 TimToady but those will be invisible to calls into Java, unless the interface allows passing a new env
22:01 TimToady s/Java/JVM/
22:04 donaldh > { temp %*ENV = (); shell('env') }
22:04 donaldh PWD=/Users/donaldh/git/rakudo
22:04 donaldh SHLVL=1
22:04 donaldh _=/usr/bin/env
22:04 TimToady masak: calls to .fmt are self-clocking, and don't have to maintain lockstep the way sprintf does; therefore a little more dwimmery is appropriate there, and it is a rather trivial piece of dwimmery at that, with very little wat
22:04 TimToady donaldh: yeah, that should propagate the new env down to shell()
22:05 donaldh TimToady: it does, on my branch ;-)
22:05 TimToady \o/; this is probably the only sane way to do business on some VMs such as the JVM
22:06 donaldh I think it's the sane way to do business on parrot too, IMHO.
22:06 masak TimToady: hm. I don't think I can see the playing field clearly. need to mull over it.
22:06 zwut00 left #perl6
22:07 TimToady I was originally of your opinion, and changed my mind, if that helps at all :)
22:08 * TimToady hates it when people say that, to be fair... :)
22:08 denis_boyun joined #perl6
22:08 donaldh :)
22:10 bbkr__ joined #perl6
22:17 masak TimToady: hehe.
22:17 FROGGS joined #perl6
22:17 masak TimToady: well, I don't have time to change my opinion right now, because I'mma sleep.
22:17 masak 'night, #perl6
22:17 donaldh 'night masak o/
22:18 TimToady o/
22:18 jnap joined #perl6
22:23 cbk joined #perl6
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: f437682 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: Add nqp::shell3 that takes  and %env. Remove previous attempt at env.
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f437682f48
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: e3ef857 | (Donald Hunter)++ | / (5 files):
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e3ef857339
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: 6aea459 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
22:25 dalek nqp/shell-rework: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6aea4596e4
22:30 donaldh Okay to merge https://github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/112  ?
22:31 jnthn donaldh: +1
22:31 jnthn Provided it builds ;)
22:34 donaldh jnthn: I am experimenting with removing the %*ENV specialness on JVM. Everything seems saner.
22:34 jnthn \o/
22:35 donaldh did you see that TimToady is leaning towards immutability of PROCESS::<%*ENV>
22:36 dalek nqp: f437682 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
22:36 dalek nqp: Add nqp::shell3 that takes  and %env. Remove previous attempt at env.
22:36 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f437682f48
22:36 dalek nqp: e3ef857 | (Donald Hunter)++ | / (5 files):
22:36 dalek nqp: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
22:36 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/e3ef857339
22:36 dalek nqp: 6aea459 | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
22:36 dalek nqp: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/nqp into shell-rework
22:36 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/6aea4596e4
22:36 dalek nqp: 4a311ef | (Donald Hunter)++ | src/vm/jvm/ (3 files):
22:36 dalek nqp: Merge pull request #112 from perl6/shell-rework
22:36 dalek nqp:
22:36 dalek nqp: Add nqp::shell($cmd, $dir, %env) op and support existing nqp::shell($cmd) until rakudo catches up
22:36 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/4a311ef1aa
22:44 donaldh > { temp $*CWD = '/'; shell('pwd'); }; shell('pwd')
22:48 TimToady otoh, see recently specced chdir/visitdir functions
22:49 TimToady though visitdir might be a macro that desugars to temp $*CWD
22:50 TimToady Fry's &
22:50 Mouq joined #perl6
22:59 donaldh https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/196
23:03 donaldh sleep&
23:07 * avuserow thinks donaldh++'s "immutable++" seems like an autopun
23:15 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
23:15 BenGoldberg Good evening
23:18 jnthn 'night, #perl6
23:28 lichtkind joined #perl6
23:29 lichtkind_ joined #perl6
23:30 licjtkind TimToady: you where involved into what jonathan presentd in kiev?
23:35 FROGGS joined #perl6
23:40 cognominal joined #perl6
23:45 sidus joined #perl6
23:47 pochi_ joined #perl6

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