Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-09-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:00 skids there's q「
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00:19 flussence huh, I was looking for a list of set operators just a while ago too
00:19 flussence yeah, there doesn't seem to be a good list anywhere. I had to look at the rakudo source to figure it out
00:23 TimToady if someone wants to document what we've got, that'd be much appreciated
00:24 timotimo hey TimToady, you're attentive? does "nodal" make sense if the hyper gets applied to an Associative?
00:24 timotimo rather than an Iterable, that is
00:27 TimToady if something is not iterable, hyper makes no sense on it; however, hashes are iterable, not just associative
00:29 TimToady now, race might make sense on non-iterables, as long as there's any kind of divide-and-conquer interface
00:29 timotimo hm. there's a candidate for hyper on Associative in rakudo at least
00:30 timotimo (it blew up because i was recurring into hyper passing along a nodal_p that's supposed to decide wether to treat one element as nodal or not)
00:44 dalek roast: 3593e2d | (David Warring)++ | S05-mass/charsets.t:
00:44 dalek roast: tidies
00:44 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3593e2d1c6
00:53 dalek niecza: 51dda4b | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
00:53 dalek niecza: Run tests that pass or are pre-fudged
00:53 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/51dda4b6c1
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03:27 BenGoldberg rpn: say pi
03:27 camelia rakudo 5a8c53: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
03:27 camelia ..pugs: OUTPUT«3.141592653589793␤»
03:27 camelia ..niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897931␤»
03:28 BenGoldberg rpn: say pi.sin
03:28 camelia rakudo 5a8c53: OUTPUT«1.22460635382238e-16␤»
03:28 camelia ..pugs: OUTPUT«1.2246063538223773e-16␤»
03:28 camelia ..niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«1.2246063538223773E-16␤»
03:30 BenGoldberg rpn: pi.tan.say
03:30 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«-1.2246063538223773E-16␤»
03:30 camelia ..pugs: OUTPUT«-1.2246063538223773e-16␤»
03:30 camelia ..rakudo 5a8c53: OUTPUT«-1.22460635382238e-16␤»
03:30 BenGoldberg rpn say pi.sin-pi.tan
03:31 BenGoldberg rpn: say pi.sin-pi.tan
03:31 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method sin-pi in type Num␤  at /tmp/YhDHQ8U9Bz line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4583 (ANON @ 3) ␤  at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4584 (module-CORE @ 576) ␤  at /home…
03:31 camelia ..rakudo 5a8c53: OUTPUT«No such method 'sin-pi' for invocant of type 'Num'␤  in block  at /tmp/U1wW0La7of:1␤␤»
03:31 camelia ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Rat: "&sin-pi"␤    at /tmp/sE4cmjHN6u line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
03:31 BenGoldberg rpn: say (pi.sin)-(pi.tan)
03:31 camelia rakudo 5a8c53: OUTPUT«2.44921270764475e-16␤»
03:31 camelia ..pugs: OUTPUT«2.4492127076447545e-16␤»
03:31 camelia ..niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«2.4492127076447545E-16␤»
03:31 BenGoldberg rpn: say (pi.sin)+(pi.tan)
03:31 camelia rakudo 5a8c53, niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f, pugs: OUTPUT«0␤»
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04:29 dalek roast: 9cd0478 | (David Warring)++ | S05-metachars/newline.t:
04:29 dalek roast: unfudged for rakudo.jvm
04:29 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9cd0478ccf
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05:46 cognominal I discovered elm a few days ago http://elm-lang.org/    I did not know Functional Reactive programming. I wish Perl 6 will support that style.   http://elm-lang.org/edit/exa​mples/Reactive/Position.elm
05:46 cognominal I don't mean elm syntax (haskell like) but the FRP style.
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05:58 cognominal thru coursera, I will take Odersky course on FRP. I will see how it compares to elm :)
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06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: 1915fc5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Setty.pm:
06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: Remove P5 thinko, spotted by BenGoldberg++
06:15 dalek rakudo/nom:
06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: This reverts commit 437e799c0ff5db7084ce7032fda7663bf8323a84.
06:15 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1915fc5efc
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06:17 lizmat r: my @a=1..5; say "bar" if @a.grep( {say "foo"; $_} )  # BenGoldberg++
06:17 camelia rakudo 5a8c53: OUTPUT«foo␤bar␤»
06:18 lizmat breakfast&
06:20 FROGGS o/
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06:52 diakopter .
06:52 yoleaux 06:21Z <FROGGS> diakopter: Wut? http://irclog.perlgeek.de/m​oarvm/2013-09-09#i_7563809
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07:12 mathw o/
07:13 FROGGS hi mathw
07:14 mathw hi froggs
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07:52 arnsholt Aw, crap. Work Java is too old to build NQP/JVM =(
07:53 mathw aaaw
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08:27 dalek rakudo/nom: ddfaa61 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Baggy.pm:
08:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Re-implement (<+)
08:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ddfaa61737
08:30 dalek roast: 5abb9eb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
08:30 dalek roast: Unfudge 9, fudge 8 (for now) because of test corruption
08:30 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5abb9eb099
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08:38 dalek Perlito: 1f23d35 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (3 files):
08:38 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - code cleanup
08:38 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/1f23d3541c
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09:31 qiyong does p6 have CPAN or similar thing?
09:32 tadzik somewhat similar thing, yes
09:32 tadzik http://modules.perl6.org/
09:34 qiyong p5/p6 has to use external modules to do things like send mails, right?
09:36 FROGGS qiyong: there is nothing built in AFAIK, yes
09:36 qiyong FROGGS: cpans are written in perl?
09:37 FROGGS qiyong: modules are written in perl
09:37 FROGGS cpan is just a network that makes them available
09:37 qiyong FROGGS: is cpan perl offical? or loossily like sf.net?
09:38 FROGGS qiyong: CPAN is the official module distribution ecosystem for Perl 5
09:38 JimmyZ qiyong: offical sf
09:39 qiyong JimmyZ: ?
09:39 JimmyZ 你好
09:39 FROGGS everyone can register as an author an release modules
09:39 qiyong FROGGS: anyone can upload modules?
09:40 JimmyZ 是的
09:40 FROGGS yes, if the module name is available
09:40 FROGGS but if you want to upload a module Foo that somebody else "owns", you won't be able to do so
09:40 qiyong FROGGS: the same as sf.net?
09:41 FROGGS qiyong: I think CPAN is a bit stricter
09:41 qiyong what if trojans are included?
09:41 FROGGS bad luck
09:41 qiyong does perl have any standard libary/modules to trust?
09:42 FROGGS but there are people who monitor the recently uploaded modules, so there is some sort of moderation
09:42 JimmyZ qiyong: You may want to ask it in #perl5
09:42 JimmyZ or #perl
09:43 JimmyZ or #cpan
09:47 qiyong FROGGS: "use foo"; where foo must come from CPAN or modules.p6
09:47 qiyong perl binary package doesn't ship anything you can 'use'?
09:47 moritz currently rakudo ships two packages, Test and lib
09:47 moritz and R* ships more modules
09:48 moritz and Rakudo Star (short R*) is made by the same people as Rakudo
09:48 qiyong so p6 is different than p5 here
09:48 moritz so if you trust us, you can trust R*
09:48 moritz qiyong: only gradually
09:48 qiyong p5 doesn't include any modules, p6 begin to ship modules
09:49 moritz qiyong: huh? p5 comes with lots of core modules
09:49 JimmyZ at leaest it contains 'use strict'
09:49 JimmyZ strict.pm
09:50 FROGGS Test::Util and many many others
09:50 qiyong moritz: is it strict.pm or a meta package?
09:50 FROGGS err
09:50 FROGGS List::Util
09:50 moritz qiyong: I cannot parse that question
09:50 moritz and I don't know what a "meta package" is either
09:50 JimmyZ s/or//
09:50 qiyong dpkg -L perl | grep pm | wc -l
09:50 qiyong 87
09:51 dalek Perlito: 0f008b0 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (6 files):
09:51 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - fix caller(), typeglob-reference assignment, grep; added minimal Carp module
09:51 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/0f008b0ce6
09:51 moritz dpkg -L perl-modules | grep pm | wc -l
09:51 moritz 498
09:51 FROGGS qiyong: now you are talking about modules packages by debian
09:51 moritz qiyong: debian packages many core modules in the package 'perl-modules'
09:51 moritz $ corelist /./|grep '\S'|wc -l
09:51 moritz 746
09:51 qiyong moritz: is perl-modules part of perl or CPAN?
09:52 moritz qiyong: perl
09:52 FROGGS (where "perl" is Perl 5)
09:54 qiyong i see, so perl5/6 has always bee shiping core modules
09:54 qiyong been*
09:54 FROGGS yes
09:55 dalek Perlito: 2d0e5ef | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
09:55 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - perl5 - typeglob fix
09:55 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/2d0e5ef7c9
09:55 FROGGS even if it would just be Test.pm and lib.pm for the rakudo Perl 6 compiler release
09:55 dalek Perlito: 61913e4 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | src5/lib/Perlito5/Carp.pm:
09:55 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - added minimal Carp module
09:55 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/61913e408f
09:55 FROGGS and about 200 additional modules for the rakudo Star release
09:58 qiyong is p6 faster than p5?
09:58 FROGGS usually not
09:58 qiyong iw p6 compiled like python's .pyc file?
09:58 qiyong p6 is slower? regression?
09:58 tadzik p6 is a languages
09:58 tadzik a language *
09:58 FROGGS I don't know what a .pyc file is, sorry
09:58 tadzik not an implementation
09:59 tadzik .pyc is what .pbc or .pir or .class is, basically
09:59 tadzik a precompiled module
09:59 FROGGS rakudo-perl6 is usually slower as perl5, to say it correct
09:59 qiyong is p6 compiled like java/python byte code?
09:59 moritz qiyong: Rakudo supports precompiling of modules
09:59 qiyong will p6 be faster in future?
10:00 FROGGS faster as it is now or faster as perl 5?
10:00 qiyong moritz: precompiled into elf possible?
10:00 qiyong as fast as p5 at least
10:00 tadzik qiyong: are you operating on an assumption that elf will be faster?
10:00 FROGGS we will see
10:00 FROGGS nobody can tell whether it will outperform perl 5 some day
10:00 FROGGS or not
10:01 tadzik magic 8 ball can
10:01 tadzik it says "Absolutely"
10:01 FROGGS *g*
10:01 tadzik it's settled then
10:01 FROGGS good to know :o)
10:02 qiyong tadzik: elf is only easier to distribute
10:02 Ulti a better goal is to outperform perl5 when using Moose and every other layer of candy people now use when writing Perl5
10:02 qiyong why p6 is implemented as virtual machine?
10:03 qiyong is that the future?
10:03 Ulti its the past
10:04 FROGGS qiyong: and vm-specific bytecode is easier to distribute that elf, since I can run the same bytecode on windows/linux/unix/bsd/mac/android/whereever
10:04 FROGGS lunch &
10:05 tadzik qiyong: because it makes more sense that way
10:05 qiyong FROGGS: platform independancy is the reason?
10:05 moritz not the only one
10:05 qiyong tadzik: such as?
10:06 qiyong moritz: a major one?
10:06 moritz the main reason is that Perl 6 code needs a runtime
10:06 moritz like garbage collector, just-in-time compiler, and lots of other infrastructure
10:06 qiyong why not implement runtime as p5?
10:06 moritz and where do you put that? in a VM!
10:07 qiyong does p5 support JIV?
10:07 moritz qiyong: p5 also has a VM internally, it's just not separated from the compiler and other parts as cleanly as in Perl 6
10:07 qiyong so p6 is going the way java has had
10:07 tadzik and python
10:07 tadzik and perl 5
10:07 tadzik and ruby
10:07 tadzik and basically everything these days
10:07 tadzik it makes more sense for a HLL
10:07 qiyong moritz: since what version? p4 or older?
10:07 tadzik high level language
10:08 moritz qiyong: since version 1 at least
10:08 qiyong so dynamic lanauge implementation needs a vm design
10:09 moritz the lesson is that if a dynamic language doesn't have a designed vm, it has an ad-hoc vm
10:09 qiyong so p6, python has a clean vm
10:09 qiyong p5 has an ad-hoc, possibly ruby too
10:10 qiyong java has clean vm too
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10:13 qiyong confirm me?
10:13 moritz confirmed.
10:13 qiyong thanks
10:14 qiyong is vm+runtime design more complex than traditional language's (c, pascal)?
10:14 qiyong or simpler
10:14 qiyong clang is vm based
10:14 moritz no, it's not
10:14 moritz it's based on llvm
10:15 moritz which is much more low-level than "normal" VMs such as java
10:15 qiyong llvm is deferent from vm here?
10:15 qiyong i see
10:15 tadzik llvm is not a VM in terms of a runtime
10:15 tadzik it's an artificial instruction set
10:15 moritz right
10:15 tadzik but it doesn't "run code"
10:16 tadzik in the same way your operating system provides a VM
10:16 qiyong is it intermidiate code?
10:16 tadzik you don't talk to hardware directly, you talk to the OS
10:16 tadzik in that sense, OS gives you a VM to code for
10:16 tadzik what is, llvm coed?
10:16 qiyong is vm big software?
10:17 qiyong is llvm intermidiate code?
10:17 tadzik llvm is intermediate code, yes
10:17 tadzik VMs can be big
10:17 tadzik they usually end up quite big
10:17 qiyong so clang/llvm has nothing new to gcc
10:17 tadzik oh, yes it does
10:18 qiyong so p6 developer have to be familar with vm, right?
10:18 tadzik not really
10:19 tadzik writing code in perl 6 you usually don't have to touch the VM
10:19 qiyong p6 core developers
10:19 tadzik (not directly)
10:19 tadzik Perl 6 is mostly written in Perl 6
10:19 qiyong p6 itself developers
10:19 tadzik unless you go low level, you can usually skip the VM details
10:19 tadzik yes, I'm talking about P6 itself
10:19 qiyong how much percent of the vm code totally?
10:20 tadzik https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo, look at language statistics
10:20 tadzik 76.4% Perl, it says
10:20 moritz qiyong: hard to tell; rakudo has multiple backends, and I'm pretty sure that the JVM has more lines of code than parrot
10:22 qiyong backends are vms?
10:23 qiyong rakudo = front + backend vm?
10:23 hoelzro Rakudo is a Perl 6 compiler that targets multiple VMs
10:23 hoelzro namely, Parrot, the JVM, and MoarVM
10:23 hoelzro (at the moment)
10:23 moritz qiyong: a backend is (code generation for a VM + the VM)
10:24 qiyong (compiler + vm)
10:24 qiyong that's
10:24 qiyong how many p6 compilers?
10:24 moritz compiler = frontend + backend + interactions between them
10:25 moritz 2, currently
10:25 moritz unless you count perlito, which doesn't aim to be feature complete
10:25 tadzik 2 that we know of :>
10:25 moritz then 3
10:25 tadzik and pugs
10:26 qiyong why p6 devleopment is so different from othere (python, ruby), multi compilers, multi vms?
10:26 moritz because p6 is so different
10:26 moritz it's so different that there are many areas that haven't previously been explored by compiler writers
10:27 moritz so there are multiple compilers that approach the problem from different angles
10:28 qiyong like *BSDs
10:28 qiyong not sure if it's development split
10:29 qiyong so this chan for using p6 or developing p6?
10:29 moritz both
10:30 qiyong so i can learn vm here?
10:30 qiyong parrot
10:30 tadzik #parrot on irc.perl.org is probably better for that
10:31 qiyong and for compiler go to #rakkuo?
10:31 tadzik no, rakudo development happens here
10:31 qiyong gtg
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10:37 jnthn man, that lunch was -Ocarbcrash...
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11:33 timotimo jnthn: in germany there's a frozen pizza you can get that has little noodles on it
11:34 daxim ewww
11:34 timotimo it's super tasty, tbh
11:35 colomon there's a place in my wife's old college town that makes fantastic spaghetti pizzas.
11:37 colomon http://www.foodspotting.com/reviews/712765 # there's a white sauce version, too
11:37 colomon just in case your diet didn't have enough carbs
11:41 timotimo i guess "white sauce" means cheese?
11:42 daxim sauce carbonara
11:43 timotimo oh my
11:45 timotimo it's gotta be pretty bad if the sauce name even has "carb" in it
11:46 hoelzro haha
11:46 moritz makes you carp()
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12:02 pmurias FROGGS: there are people who monitor newly uploaded perl5 modules for trojans?
12:03 xinming joined #perl6
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12:05 lizmat pmurias: yes, and not only for trojans for that matter  :)
12:07 moritz just for new distributions, or also for new versions of distributions?
12:08 lizmat afaik, all uploads
12:09 lizmat and if I tell you more, I will have to silence you  :-)
12:09 lizmat TimToady, colomon: looking for the spec on .KeySet coercers
12:09 lizmat Currently the .KeySet coercer on KeySet objects returns self
12:10 lizmat this caused a hard to chase bug with e.g. (&) if the first parameter was a KeySet
12:10 colomon there is no spec for that as far as I know
12:10 colomon errr… why?
12:11 lizmat my $keybag = @p ?? @p.shift.KeyBag !! KeyBag.new;
12:11 lizmat if the first element was a keybag, than it would use that
12:11 lizmat thus causing the KeyBag being checked to be changed
12:12 lizmat same for KeySet: my $keyset = @p ?? @p.shift.KeySet !! KeySet.new;
12:12 lizmat well, if there is no spec, I can do what I want  :-)
12:13 colomon …. ideally you'd do something sensible.
12:13 lizmat yes,...
12:13 lizmat how does this sound:
12:13 lizmat method KeySet (:$clone) { $clone ?? KeySet.new(self.keys) !! self }
12:13 Fatalnix something sensible
12:14 Fatalnix like destroy all pylons!
12:14 colomon lizmat: I guess I'm still not seeing why?
12:15 lizmat because the $keybag I created, is the result to be, and therefore changes
12:16 colomon Consulting with TimToady on what coercers should do when called on mutable objects would be a Good Idea
12:16 colomon certainly I have always expected them to return self
12:17 colomon You'll notice, for instance, how I handled the case of wanting a different KeyBag in KeyBag.pick
12:18 lizmat yup
12:18 timotimo i was under the impression that cloning would be the default and re-use would be optional if you know what you're doing; shouldn't the named parameter be flipped in that case?
12:18 timotimo or am i conflating this with the use case you had for creating bags etc from hashes temporarily?
12:19 lizmat am not sure...
12:19 timotimo oh huh, method KeySet? i don't think that was what i was thinking about
12:19 lizmat let's see how this works out… it's easy enough to change since it is all internal in the settings anyway
12:19 timotimo carry on, then :)
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12:21 colomon lizmat: also, why (&)? are you making KeySet-specific versions of the Set operators?
12:22 lizmat eh, that was in your code /
12:22 lizmat ?
12:22 colomon ?????
12:23 lizmat what do you mean exactly ?
12:23 lizmat which code ?
12:25 colomon (&) returns a Set or a Bag.  Never a KeySet or a KeyBag
12:25 lizmat but it returns a Set or Bag!
12:25 lizmat at the end: $keybag.Bag(:view);
12:25 lizmat and: $keyset.Set(:view);
12:26 colomon that would be your code, not mine
12:26 lizmat yes, it is indeed
12:26 colomon I don't even know what :view means
12:26 lizmat I misunderstood your question
12:27 lizmat it's an experiment: at this moment it creates a Bag from a KeyBag with the same underlying Hash
12:27 lizmat so nothing needs to be copied
12:27 lizmat same with Set from KeySet
12:28 lizmat I re-implemented Setty / Baggy using the idea of typed hashes
12:28 lizmat in Setty, the key of the underlying hash is the .WHICH of the key, and the value is the key unchanged
12:29 lizmat in Baggy, the key is also the .WHICH of the key, and the value is a pair with the original key and count as the vaue
12:29 lizmat value
12:29 lizmat that was the only way to get a set unflattend/ unstringified into another set
12:32 lizmat am I making sense ?
12:33 colomon I understand using WHICH.  I don't understand how it relates to the issue at hand at all.
12:33 lizmat in the case of (&), we want the keys that exist in all sets/bags, right ?
12:34 colomon right
12:34 lizmat so I take the first of the parameters passed, and turn that into a KeyBag/KeySet to work with
12:34 colomon and that's the jump I don't understand
12:34 lizmat if I use a hash, I would have to use a typed hash
12:35 lizmat and that doesn't work inside the settings (serialization cannot cope with that somehow)
12:35 lizmat therefore I would use a KeyBag (if there were any baggys) or a KeySet (if there were no baggys)
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12:37 colomon why not explicitly create a fresh KeySet / KeyBag for the results, then?
12:38 dalek rakudo/nom: 9b95a42 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
12:38 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix issue with (&) if the first parameter was a KeySet or KeyBag
12:38 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9b95a429ba
12:38 lizmat because I use the keys in that KeySet/KeyBag to loop over to see if the exist in the other coerced Sets/Bags
12:38 lizmat it's like the seed I work from
12:40 lizmat https://gist.github.com/lizmat/6508859  the actual code now
12:41 lizmat line 5 sets up the KeyBag to work with, from the first parameter
12:42 lizmat lines 6-11 loop over all other parameters as bags, removing keys from the work keybag that don't exist
12:42 lizmat line 7 turns the work keybag into an immutable bag and returns that
12:43 lizmat similar for sets in 15-19
12:47 dalek roast: 7ff98f4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
12:47 dalek roast: Unfudge now passing tests
12:47 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7ff98f47f7
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12:55 timotimo .o(i wonder if you should sort the bags by element count and use the smallest one for the loop)
12:56 FROGGS you can even take a rucksack if the element count is small enough
12:57 timotimo in the most extreme of cases, a handbag could even work
12:57 timotimo or a purse
12:57 jnthn Or just stick the stuff in your pocket
12:58 lizmat timotimo: yes, I was considering ordering
12:58 lizmat but then I would have to coerce everything into something Baggy / Setty already
12:59 colomon lizmat: I appreciate that you're trying to make the code efficient, but I'm uncomfortable with adding a bunch of named parameters to the coercers to help that goal.
12:59 timotimo oh, that's right, because the number of elements is only the upper bound of the number of unique elements
12:59 * colomon 's mind is having an internal war between elegance and optimization
12:59 lizmat those I consider all experimental
12:59 lizmat and can go at any time
12:59 lizmat actually, I think the :view parameter indicates a need for something more general
12:59 colomon much like my mind (can go at any time, it's not, so far as I know, experimental)
13:00 jnthn Well, evolution is kinda a huge experiment... :)
13:00 lizmat rather than coerce things into other things, I would rather see a Baggy "view" on other things
13:00 colomon jnthn: only if there is an experimenter behind it.  ;)
13:00 timotimo haha, i just saw someone take a picture of the lightning talks with a huge tablet, that's so funny looking :D
13:01 jnthn :view args on the coercer feel odd to me, to throw in my 2 sense
13:01 lizmat because for all of these operators, what one really only needs is the appropriate at_key method to call
13:01 jnthn uh, cents...
13:01 jnthn timotimo: Yes, I've never been able to not find taking a photo with a tablet amusing :)
13:02 colomon lizmat: I'm pretty sure I do understand your reasoning now.  ;)
13:02 lizmat if we say, that a coercer on a mutable object should always return a cloned object, that's fine by me
13:03 jnthn lizmat: I( think we start out that way, and maybe in the future we make a cow mechanism...
13:03 lizmat we don't need :clone
13:03 colomon My thought was it should never return a cloned object; getting around that limitation will only take like ten additional characters.
13:03 colomon but I may be wrong about never returning a cloned object.
13:04 colomon I don't think that's an area of the spec we've explored much...
13:04 jnthn hmm
13:04 lizmat in most modern databases, there are things called views
13:04 jnthn r: my @a; say @a.List.WHAT
13:04 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«No such method 'List' for invocant of type 'Array'␤  in block  at /tmp/FXA26c6MGq:1␤␤»
13:04 lizmat I think even DBIx::Class has them, even if the db doesn't support them
13:04 jnthn meh, we can't just steal that answer :P
13:05 colomon lizmat: I'm actually reminded of the great sequence operator trick of pmichaud++
13:05 colomon we had been struggling mightily to get the sequence operator working up to spec.
13:05 colomon the code was starting to look ludicrous, and it still didn't work.
13:06 colomon and pmichaud was like, give that to me, I can make the code much better.
13:07 colomon and I was put out by that, because we'd been working hard it on, and it wasn't obvious (to me) how he could improve it.
13:07 colomon and he looked at the code for, I don't know, a day or so.
13:07 colomon and then told TimToady the spec for the sequence operator had to be simplified, because it was too hard to implement.
13:08 colomon and a day or two later, he had a complete implementation of the new sequence operator.
13:08 lizmat hehe...
13:08 colomon which was drastically simpler than the code we had, I should add.
13:09 lizmat why does this feel like the Kobayashi Maru, with pmichaud in the role of JTK
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13:09 lizmat :-)
13:09 FROGGS hehe
13:09 colomon the spec was a big improvement, too; what it lost in magic it gained in sanity.  it was a win all around.
13:09 FROGGS lizmat++
13:10 jnthn r: say KeySet ~~ Set
13:10 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«False␤»
13:10 jnthn r: say Set.^mro
13:10 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«(Set) (Any) (Mu)␤»
13:10 lizmat r: sau KeySet ~~ Setty
13:10 jnthn r: say KeySet.^mro
13:10 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/9MXJDESkwlâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    sau used at line 1. Did you mean '&say'?â�¤â�¤Â»
13:10 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«(KeySet) (Any) (Mu)␤»
13:10 lizmat r: say KeySet ~~ Setty
13:10 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«True␤»
13:11 lizmat Setty is the role
13:11 jnthn r: say Setty.at_home
13:11 camelia rakudo ddfaa6: OUTPUT«No such method 'at_home' for invocant of type 'Setty'␤  in block  at /tmp/iwTfVBk1dk:1␤␤»
13:11 jnthn aww!
13:11 jnthn :)
13:11 lizmat KeySet / Set are no longer parent/child
13:11 jnthn ok
13:11 jnthn So simple type stuff doesn't comke into the coercions then
13:11 lizmat like?
13:11 jnthn I mean, .Setty on a KeySet/Set is identity...
13:12 jnthn Well, I mean, @array.List should probably just do self.
13:12 lizmat there is no Setty  :-)
13:12 jnthn As Array ~~ List
13:12 lizmat ah, yes
13:12 jnthn I was checking if there was a similar argument here
13:12 lizmat or maybe not
13:12 jnthn But no, there's not inheritance in it. :)
13:12 lizmat the thing is:: does a coercer return a mutable object or not
13:12 jnthn If you coerce from a mutable type to an immutable one?
13:13 jnthn I'd think it'd better not just return self.
13:13 jnthn Um
13:13 lizmat ok, will remove :clone for now
13:13 jnthn I mean, it'd better not mutate from the point you make it immutable.
13:13 colomon jnthn: right
13:13 jnthn You can do it by always cloning
13:13 jnthn But as I said, we could do a copy-on-write thing too.
13:13 jnthn Sorry if the cow reference was too opaque :)
13:14 jnthn .oO( It's call COW 'cus it helps you cope with mootation... )
13:14 lizmat it wasn't, but I think this is part of a larger discussion
13:14 lizmat with views
13:14 jnthn teaching again &
13:15 PacoAir joined #perl6
13:16 lizmat running some errands&
13:16 colomon lizmat: I wouldn't bother changing :clone until some more people weigh in on the mutable / immutable coercers thing.
13:17 PacoAir joined #perl6
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13:30 dalek rakudo/nom: a954307 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
13:30 dalek rakudo/nom: Add some more :views
13:30 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a954307f41
13:30 dalek rakudo/nom: afa2a5c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
13:30 dalek rakudo/nom: Make .KeySet/.KeyBag always create a new object
13:30 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/afa2a5cb19
13:32 dalek roast: 97bfc53 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
13:32 dalek roast: 10 more TODO tests passing
13:32 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/97bfc53c5f
13:32 lizmat removing the :clone feature was easier  :-)
13:33 timotimo 10 todos passing \o/
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13:34 poor_soul hello, #perl6!
13:34 timotimo hi there
13:35 poor_soul i actually got two new question today on zavolaj
13:35 poor_soul 1) do i need to call self.bless inside new
13:36 poor_soul 2) is there a way to bind enums?
13:36 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
13:36 timotimo what does "bind enums" mean? copy them over from some C header?
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13:37 poor_soul they are defined in a c header of a library
13:37 poor_soul are they not available in the symbols?
13:37 timotimo i'm not sure, but i think not
13:38 poor_soul timotimo: i understand
13:38 timotimo to answer your question about "self.bless", it depends; mostly you'll have some C function that will initialise a struct for you and you can just use that
13:39 moritz and often a BUILD submethod is enough
13:39 poor_soul how do i know if i need to call bless or not?
13:39 moritz poor_soul: if you write a custom method new which constructs an object, you'll have to call self.bless
13:39 timotimo for example the ZMQ message.pm looks like this: class Net::ZMQ::Message is repr('CStruct'); [...] my sub zmq_msg_init(Net::ZMQ::Message --> int) is native('libzmq') { * }; [...] multi submethod BUILD() { my $ret = zmq_msg_init(self); zmq_die() if $ret != 0; }
13:41 PerlJam poor_soul: What C stuff are you interfacing with Perl 6?
13:41 timotimo libarchive i think
13:41 poor_soul i'm trying to use libarchive, and it has a archive_read_new() which returns a pointer. By what you are saying, i should just return it, is it correct?
13:42 PerlJam ah, nice.
13:42 timotimo yeah, your class will be repr('CPointer') and you can use the return value of archive_read_new as your class IIUC
13:43 poor_soul easy peasy :) thank you
13:43 poor_soul btw only classes can be declared 'is repr(CPointer)', not roles?
13:44 arnsholt No, not roles
13:44 moritz role are just methods and attributes that are copied into classes, plus a bit of behavior
13:44 arnsholt Roles aren't concrete classes that can be instantiated, so it doesn't really make sense for them to have a REPR
13:44 moritz so it doesn't make sense to give them a representation
13:44 poor_soul but repr(CPointer) is not inherited by a subclass
13:44 arnsholt Yeah
13:45 poor_soul why is that so?
13:45 arnsholt The REPR is a piece of logic that defines how a particular class is laid out in memory
13:45 * moritz thinks it wouldn't be bad to inherit the REPR
13:45 moritz and in the case of multiple inheritance, it would die if the REPRs of the base classes differ, and you didn't specify one
13:46 timotimo what's the name for the default repr?
13:46 poor_soul if a class inherits one which is REPR, it cannot be used in place of the superclass...
13:46 arnsholt timotimo: P6opaque
13:46 timotimo K
13:46 arnsholt Different REPRs doesn't really affect whether it can be used in place of the superclass or not
13:47 arnsholt The REPR only specifies how attributes are stored and looked up in memory
13:47 poor_soul wouldn't it be better if it inherited the REPR and just be constrained to not having additional attributes?
13:48 timotimo the repr may know about how to handle new attributes
13:50 arnsholt It's pretty much only the CPointer REPR that doesn't support attributes
13:50 arnsholt (There's CArray as well, but that one's not really part of the user-facing API)
13:52 poor_soul you are saying it would be strange if repr(CPointer) was inheritable thanks to this limitation, while the others are not since the REPR cannot be sure of how to place new attributes
13:55 arnsholt You probably don't want to inherit from a class that is CPointer REPRd anyways
13:55 pmurias currently if we have class Foo is repr('CPointer') {...};class Bar is Foo {...}, the repr of Bar is P6opaque?
13:55 arnsholt Pretty sure Bar will be P6opaque, yeah
13:55 pmurias wouldn't it make more sense to inherit the repr type?
13:56 arnsholt For that particular REPR, yeah. But not for REPRs in general I think
13:56 arnsholt But this is probably more of a jnthn-question =)
13:57 pmurias it seems to more of a TimToady-question
13:57 arnsholt Or TimToady, yeah
13:58 jnap joined #perl6
13:58 poor_soul star: use NativeCall; class A is repr("CPointer") {}; class B is A {}; say B.REPR
13:58 camelia star 2013.08: OUTPUT«P6opaque␤»
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14:02 arnsholt poor_soul: But back to your original question, https://github.com/arnsholt/Net-ZMQ​/blob/master/lib/Net/ZMQ/Socket.pm is an example of a class using the CPointer REPR
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14:05 poor_soul arnsholt: thanks for the link, a more fleshed out example is always useful
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14:07 poor_soul so, the only way to get constants from a library is to create a little add-on library in c which imports the constants and has some functions to return them as values, is it ok?
14:07 timotimo parse the header file and generate a p6 module from it?
14:08 poor_soul what if the values change? i would need to rebuild the module
14:08 arnsholt That's one way, or just hard code them in your Perl code: https://github.com/arnsholt/Net-ZMQ/​blob/master/lib/Net/ZMQ/Constants.pm
14:08 arnsholt If the values change, you're screwed either way, usually
14:09 poor_soul right, i would have to rebuild either way
14:10 jnthn You'd have to rebuild any C libraries that used the constants too... :)
14:10 jnthn On repr(...) being taken by subclasses, yes, that may make sense
14:10 timotimo you could search for the header file in Build.pm and regenerate the constants file if need be
14:11 poor_soul still, i would need to write a (partial) C header parser, just to get some enums
14:12 poor_soul i think i will go the 'hard code them' way
14:12 PerlJam poor_soul: I'm mildly surprised someone hasn't already done that given Perl6's affinity for grammars :)
14:12 jnthn Plenty of people have mentioned it'd be good to have, though :)
14:13 jnthn I've love to but my todo list is already way too long :)
14:13 arnsholt Parsing C is a pretty gnarly problem
14:14 arnsholt Especially if you want to parse headers, since that means you need to cope with the preprocessor as well
14:14 jnthn aye, it's fun :)
14:14 PerlJam arnsholt: but ... but ... we have Perl 6!!!
14:14 jnthn as in evil :)
14:14 timotimo nativecall doesn't require a compiler to be available, right?
14:15 * colomon is desperately cleaning the house in anticipation of company for lunch.
14:15 pmurias to run it shouldn't
14:15 colomon as a first pass, just use GCC's preprocessor to handle that part of things.
14:15 timotimo right. otherwise one could use the actual preprocessor to do it
14:16 pmurias aren't constanst usually #define's in C?
14:16 pmurias * constants
14:16 timotimo in this case we're interested in an enum, though
14:16 poor_soul #define's surely don't appear as symbols in libraries
14:17 poor_soul but i thought enums were available
14:17 pmurias parsing C shouldn't be that hard
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14:18 arnsholt #defines are used for constants in libraries all over the place
14:18 arnsholt I'm not sure if C89 has enums
14:18 poor_soul yes, they are used, but this doesn't mean the appear in the .so symbol table
14:18 timotimo C89? that's from when i was born. who seriously still uses that!!!!kkk ;)
14:18 poor_soul *they
14:19 * colomon is pretty sure C89 does have enums
14:19 arnsholt #defines don't appear in the symbol table, because they're not actually symbols in C (only in the preprocessor)
14:19 arnsholt timotimo: MS C only supports C89 (with occasional pieces of C99), so C89 is kinda important
14:19 colomon timotimo: C89 is from the year I learned C on the job.  ;)
14:19 * arnsholt decommute &
14:20 timotimo arnsholt: sadly not serious
14:21 poor_soul arnsholt: yeah i know
14:22 colomon timotimo: incidentally, the job that required the C code was writing a DOS interface to a tape punch machine.
14:22 btyler joined #perl6
14:23 * PerlJam boggles a little bit that people are questioning if C89 had enums
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14:28 timotimo tadzik: your lightning talk was good :)
14:29 diakopter PerlJam: I don't see anyone in the backlog "questioning"
14:29 diakopter whether C89 had enums
14:29 FROGGS timotimo: linky?
14:29 timotimo lizmat: also, your "is perl6 perl" talk was good (ISTR having seen it before already)
14:29 timotimo one sec
14:30 PerlJam diakopter: <arnsholt> I'm not sure if C89 has enums
14:30 PerlJam close enough for me :)
14:30 timotimo http://youtu.be/ftGwgEUFgbE?t=42m13s - starts with moritz, continues with tadzik, ends with lizmat
14:30 diakopter that's simply admitting ignorance
14:30 diakopter people aren't allowed to not know things?
14:31 timotimo moritz: your talk was good, too. but you weren't as loud as tadzik ;)
14:31 btyler joined #perl6
14:31 diakopter he didn't say he had a reason to doubt they appeared by then, just that he didn't know when they appeared
14:32 lizmat timotimo: :-)
14:32 tadzik timotimo: thank you :)
14:32 timotimo still waiting for jnthns parallelism talk to be uploaded
14:33 timotimo but i suppose the steady bunch-of-videos-every-day thing is better than all-videos-at-once-half-a-year-later approach
14:34 jnthn I hope the video for my parallelism/conc talk will be decent qualit
14:34 jnthn I can probably promise I wasn't quiet :P
14:34 jnthn .oO( Promise indeed... )
14:34 timotimo :)
14:34 timotimo i'm afraid the sound quality will likely be not terribly good
14:35 jnthn Hopefully no worse than other main room ones, though.
14:35 timotimo during the devops talk, the camera is quite out of focus, so i can't read the slides at all :(
14:35 timotimo the main room is the one where lightning talks were held?
14:35 jnthn camops fail...
14:35 jnthn aye
14:35 timotimo the audio quality there is perfect
14:36 jnthn that's where I gave my parallllelism talk
14:36 jnthn wow, keyboard
14:36 timotimo oh, cool
14:36 timotimo at least your slides have high contrast text, that's a very good prerequisite for good recording quality
14:40 FROGGS tadzik++ # entertaining talk!
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14:42 timotimo there's that javascript based template stuff that has a dark blue background with a radial gradient and the text is kind of not very big ... that's much harder to read
14:42 timotimo though i must admit the text on jnthns slides is probably not that much bigger, if at all
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14:45 timotimo tadzik: i feel like you should have had a pun in there like "the next step is to get ACT. the step after that is to act!"
14:46 tadzik ah, a wasted opportunity! :)
14:46 moritz :-)
14:46 timotimo but there's no sense crying over every mistake
14:46 tadzik you just keep on trying till you run out of cake
14:47 timotimo i was hoping there'd be some perl6-related replacement for cake
14:47 tadzik funny, that's the first song I learned on the new piano
14:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 63dca5d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Setty.pm:
14:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix set union for Bags and KeyBags
14:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/63dca5d749
14:51 dalek roast: 905d93e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
14:51 dalek roast: 6 more TODO's passing
14:51 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/905d93e842
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15:06 dalek rakudo/nom: 51aa2c8 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Baggy.pm:
15:06 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix problem with set multiplication
15:06 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/51aa2c88c7
15:06 dalek roast: 3c5c43c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/bag.t:
15:06 dalek roast: And another 12 TODO's bite the dust
15:06 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/3c5c43c3d9
15:16 sidus joined #perl6
15:22 dalek roast: 1974651 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S03-operators/set.t:
15:22 dalek roast: Two more unfudges
15:22 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/1974651d61
15:29 kaare_ joined #perl6
15:33 dalek Perlito: ce83bf7 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (5 files):
15:33 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - negative-strings; some tests fail
15:33 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/ce83bf71b7
15:36 slava joined #perl6
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15:49 dalek rakudo/nom: bce4d79 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Setty.pm:
15:49 dalek rakudo/nom: If (-) is chaining, then U+2216 SET MINUS [Sm] (∖) should be also
15:49 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/bce4d7928b
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16:33 lizmat r: my $b=KeyBag.new(<a a a>); say $b (-) <a a a a>
16:33 camelia rakudo bce4d7: OUTPUT«Found negative values for a in Bag␤  in method sink at src/gen/CORE.setting:11557␤  in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:896␤  in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:837␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:822␤  in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:820␤…
16:33 lizmat fixing this now
16:34 timotimo ~there is the parallelism talk!
16:34 timotimo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkfvPx1vFwI
16:34 timotimo except that's not the jnthn i remember
16:35 dalek rakudo/nom: 233e8c2 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Setty.pm:
16:35 dalek rakudo/nom: Fixing set complement bug if right hand had more foo than left hand
16:35 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/233e8c2328
16:38 colomon more foo?
16:38 colomon oooo, bug indeed.
16:38 colomon lizmat: roast that baby
16:40 jnthn timotimo: um, that doesn't seem to be a link to my talk...
16:45 * jnthn don't see his in the Twitter feed yet either...
16:46 lizmat r: say set(1, 2, 3) >>+>>  6   # where would I need to look to fix this ?
16:46 camelia rakudo bce4d7: OUTPUT«("1" => 7, "2" => 7, "3" => 7).hash␤»
16:47 lizmat src/core/metaops I presume, but where ?
16:48 Rotwang joined #perl6
16:48 lizmat r: say set(1, 2, 3) >>+>> fail # tells me where
16:48 camelia rakudo bce4d7: OUTPUT«No exception handler and no message␤␤current instr.: 'throw' pc 388834 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:164584) (src/gen/CORE.setting:10168)␤called from Sub 'sink' pc 424894 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:177833) (src/gen/CORE.setting:11557)␤called from Sub 'MAIN' pc 401 (src/…
16:49 jnap joined #perl6
16:50 lizmat jnthn: adding extra candidates for Setty/Baggy to multi sub hyper(\op, Associative \a, Associative \b, :$dwim-left, :$dwim-right)  ??
16:52 arnsholt jnthn: Any objections to making NQP/JVM "ExceptionHandling.dieInternal(ThreadContext, String)" into "dieInternal(ThreadContext, String, Object...)" and passing the string and objects through String.format?
16:54 lizmat away for an hour or so&
16:55 jnthn arnsholt: Only concern is if we're passing a %foo somewhere already
16:55 jnthn arnsholt: Could it be done with an overlord?
16:55 jnthn arnsholt: uh. overload!
16:56 arnsholt Oh, right
16:56 arnsholt Adding an overload with that signature is of course the right thing
16:56 * jnthn remembers a really "fun" bug with Parrot exception throwing where a %hash_var in an error got interpreted as an escape :)
16:57 jnthn ('cus forgot it treated it as a format string :))
16:57 arnsholt Heh. Hilarious, I'm sure =)
16:58 jnthn lizmat: Well, that's the multi sub that does >>...<<, yes
16:58 jnthn r: say Set ~~ Setty
16:58 camelia rakudo bce4d7: OUTPUT«True␤»
16:58 jnthn r: say Set ~~ Associative
16:58 camelia rakudo bce4d7: OUTPUT«True␤»
16:58 jnthn r: say Setty ~~ Associative
16:58 camelia rakudo bce4d7: OUTPUT«True␤»
16:59 jnthn OK, in theory narrowness analysis will work out right too, then.
17:01 timotimo jnthn: the video was renamed after i linked it
17:01 jnthn timotimo: ah...
17:01 jnthn timotimo: Just upload name fail I guess hen.
17:01 jnthn *then
17:11 arnsholt jnthn: In P6OpaqueREPRData.java, shouldn't the unbox slot numbers be longs rather than ints, if we're being pedantic?
17:12 arnsholt The for loop's loop variable is a long, and we increment an int inside it to number the slots
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17:30 [Coke] n: say "{21697 - 21372} more tests passing today for niecza."
17:30 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«325 more tests passing today for niecza.␤»
17:30 [Coke] (new test files that were already fudged hadn't been added to spectest.data - more coudl be added with a little more fudging.)
17:32 timotimo jnthn: i sincerely hope your actual recordings are among the batch that's being uploaded at the moment
17:33 diakopter timotimo: how do you know there is a batch uploading?
17:34 timotimo "58 minutes ago", "1 hour ago", "1 hour ago", "2 hours ago", "5 hours ago"
17:34 diakopter oh
17:34 timotimo something's clearly happening
17:34 arnsholt *meep* The JVM inlining stuff is scary
17:38 TimToady timotimo, colomon, lizmat: S13:131 says you can't rely on coercion to give you either a new object or the old object; the only guarantee is that you get an object of the appropriate type, so if you want a guaranteed different mutable object, you'd better clone, then coerce.
17:38 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S13.html#line_131
17:44 jnthn arnsholt: I'm pretty sure we'd hit the limit on the number of fields a JVM class can have before we reach 2**31 fields... :P
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17:45 arnsholt Troo, troo =D
17:45 timotimo aha!
17:46 timotimo there's another video just uploaded with "jonathan worthington" in its title
17:46 timotimo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg8tAv35YFg - maybe for reals this time
17:47 BitPuffin joined #perl6
17:49 diakopter timotimo: yes
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18:02 arnsholt jnthn: Actually, can we really properly inline complex types on JVM?
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18:14 TimToady can you properly inline a 2-element array?  (assuming we already implemented S09's shaped arrays...)
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18:38 colomon TimToady++
18:39 dalek Perlito: 3792772 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (4 files):
18:39 dalek Perlito: Perlito5 - js - negative-strings
18:39 dalek Perlito: review: https://github.com/fglock/​Perlito/commit/3792772586
18:41 arnsholt TimToady: I'm not even sure if any version of Rakudo handles shaped arrays =)
18:43 lizmat TimToady: so you're saying it is ok for a coerces like KeySet to always create a new object
18:43 lizmat coercer
18:44 lizmat I guess not
18:44 * lizmat goes about changing code again
18:48 colomon lizmat: he's saying it's okay for .KeySet to always create a new object, but it *isn't* okay for code using .KeySet to assume that it does so.
18:48 lizmat which basically means I need to change the code  :-)
18:48 colomon :)
18:48 colomon I think it's also implying you can *always* assume :view?
18:48 skids (and not that it matters at this point in development, but a coder would likely put a redundant .clone before the coercer, which is less efficient.)
18:52 lizmat colomon: indeed, good point
18:54 jnthn om nom penang nua...
18:54 arnsholt Mmmm, Thai food
18:54 jnthn arnsholt: Kinda..
18:55 jnthn arnsholt: The problem really is how on earth do you get a reference into the middle of an object...
18:55 jnthn (JVM doesn't support it.)
18:55 arnsholt Yeah, that's what suddenly struck me
18:57 timotimo aaw i was looking forward to hearing the questions of the audience in the talk
18:57 timotimo clearly a full hour talk would have been better :P
18:57 xenoterracide joined #perl6
18:58 timotimo but moar will? and moar will run rounds around the jvm in terms of performance :P
18:58 timotimo (at least for executing perl6 code ...)
18:58 jeff_s1 joined #perl6
19:02 diakopter timotimo: uh, no
19:02 diakopter where are you getting this idea
19:02 diakopter make sure not to propagate it anywhere
19:03 btyler jnthn: just watched the talk, really exciting stuff! one question that jumped into my mind re channels: is there any way to tell a channel: "stop, I have as much as I can handle right now!" and the channel either buffers incoming data or relays that 'pause' request to the underlying data source
19:03 diakopter unless by "executing perl6 code" you mean "perl6 startup time only"
19:03 timotimo the best perl6 scripts will already be done by the time "startup" is over :P
19:04 TimToady btyler: everything is possible with another layer of indirection :)
19:05 timotimo btyler: i don't quite understand. there's an internal buffer to the channel anyway, i don't think it's synchronous
19:06 jnthn btyler: At the moment a channel is really just a (threadsafe) queue. Sending is non-blocking; it will buffer stuff happily.
19:06 btyler mostly comparing to something like the nodejs streams API, which I've played with a tad. entirely possible that I have the wrong sense of how it works. with nodejs streams, you can stream.pause to signal that you'd really rather not keep consuming data at right this moment
19:06 jnthn btyler: I can imagine that feed operators, if we do those with channels between them, will want some mechanism for managing queue length.
19:07 btyler neat, thanks for the clarification
19:07 jnthn btyler: And then probably that'd be more general.
19:07 timotimo feed operators are going to be more interesting anyway, because for full performance we will want batching
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19:08 arnsholt jnthn: So I guess we'll just have to handle inlined aggregates not-inlined-after-all, and just have a normal object member?
19:08 jnthn arnsholt: I think so
19:09 dalek rakudo/nom: a197668 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (4 files):
19:09 dalek rakudo/nom: Cannot rely on coercer to give a new object, so we need to make one
19:09 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a197668907
19:09 jnthn arnsholt: Until the JVM gives us struct-like things like the CLR has.
19:09 jnthn arnsholt: Apparently, it is on the JVM roadmap...though probably years away.
19:09 * TimToady visualizes a (potential) pair of complete IP stacks between the feed's source and destination...
19:09 arnsholt From what I gather of JVM timelines, I put it at about 10 years out =p
19:10 arnsholt But then I'll try to wrap my brain around how the flattening stuff works and implement that stuff
19:10 TimToady depends on how soon Oracle buys Microsoft...
19:10 TimToady or vice versa
19:11 diakopter augh
19:17 slava TimToady: one of them buying the other will be funny ... since Ellison hates MS with a passion (stronger than mine).
19:18 perigrin slava: but is (I assume) in a much better position to make an offer
19:18 slava true
19:19 slava pretty sure if Ellison bought MS, first thing he'd do is throw a chair at Balmer
19:19 slava it's what I would do :D
19:19 jnthn Balmer won't be charing Microsoft for much longer, alas... :)
19:19 jnthn uh, chairing
19:19 jnthn darn, way to ruin the pun...
19:19 diakopter also, charring
19:19 perigrin alas?
19:20 jnthn perigrin: Well, Ellison can't throw a chair at him if he's gone... :P
19:20 lizmat TimToady: if a coercer of a mutable class (such as KeySet) is applied on an immutable class (like Set)
19:21 lizmat I guess it would be wise to *not* use any smart aliasing logic
19:21 lizmat because it would then be very ease for someone to change an immutable Set
19:21 perigrin jnthn: never underestimate the wealth that ellison has ... once he owns microsoft all he has to do is look in their HR database for Ballmer's home address
19:22 perigrin because obviously that is the only thing stopping him now
19:22 teslos joined #perl6
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19:23 TimToady lizmat: yeah, you really, really don't want to break the immutability invariant, or nearly all optimization becomes impossible
19:23 lizmat ok, just checking  :-)
19:23 b^_^d hey everyone!
19:24 * TimToady looks around to see if everyone is here...
19:24 lizmat b^_^d: welcome, you stranger from #perl6 on irc.perl.org
19:24 diakopter not me
19:24 b^_^d lizmat: long time! :)
19:25 b^_^d reading lots of interesting stuff in 6guts blog!
19:26 PerlJam It's a shame that moarvm didn't get a name like 6guts instead  ;)
19:26 * TimToady imagines six impossible GUTs before breakfast...
19:27 masak o/, #perl6
19:27 TimToady \o
19:28 lizmat masak o/
19:29 Bzek joined #perl6
19:38 lizmat colomon, TimToady: I'm keeping the :view named parameter for now
19:39 lizmat even though you can argue that the coercer returns something
19:39 diakopter TimToady: how many of those guts does the breakfast fill
19:39 lizmat if I by default return an immutable coercer on a mutable object
19:39 lizmat like $keyset.Set
19:40 lizmat there would be no guarantee that the underling KeySet is not changed, thereby violating the immutability of the object returned by the coercer
19:40 diakopter lizmat: lock it in another thread lololol
19:43 lizmat so inside the settings, .Set and .Bag are always called with :view, because *there* I can be sure the underlying mutable will not change
19:44 yoleaux joined #perl6
19:44 diakopter lizmat: I was only half kidding....
19:44 lizmat the other half will come later if that thread unblocks?  :-)
19:45 diakopter no, you send that thread a signal when you're ready to unlock it
19:48 diakopter I'm just imagining a way to use a thread just for locking an object from access by the entire system, not just other threads
19:49 diakopter solution is to have a thread in an event loop that only handles lock/unlock requests, and lock objects manage access
19:50 pupoque joined #perl6
19:50 dalek rakudo/nom: 19596ae | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Setty.pm:
19:50 dalek rakudo/nom: Some additional :view on .Set coercers
19:50 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/19596aeb71
19:50 diakopter via a hash of object addresses... which would need rehashed if the objects move... :)
19:51 Mouq joined #perl6
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20:09 dalek perl6-roast-data: cbb541f | coke++ | / (5 files):
20:09 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
20:09 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/cbb541fab6
20:12 kivutar joined #perl6
20:15 arnsholt jnthn: I think there's a mismatch between the Parrot box_target stuff, which supports an arbitrary number of box_targets (but only one each for int, num and str), and the way things are factored on JVM
20:15 arnsholt jnthn: But my brain is kinda fried now, so I'm going to bed now and I'll try to look into it further on the morrow
20:16 jnthn arnsholt: Mine also...maybe I'll be smarter then too :)
20:16 [Coke] n: say "{27371*.8-21697}
20:16 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![3​1m===[0mâ�¤â�¤Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/TXr9UA0tZn line 1:â�¤------> [32msay[33mâ��[31m "{27371*.8-21697}[0mâ�¤â�¤Confused at /tmp/TXr9UA0tZn line…
20:16 [Coke] n: say "{27371*.8-21697} tests left to get to 80%"
20:16 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«199.8 tests left to get to 80%␤»
20:17 [Coke] r: say "{27371 - 27138} tests for JVM to pass to tie parrot."
20:17 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«233 tests for JVM to pass to tie parrot.␤»
20:20 lizmat 99.15%
20:20 lue hello world! o/
20:21 lizmat lue /o
20:21 [Coke] getting .VAR working, as noted previously, would be a big step.
20:25 cognominal joined #perl6
20:27 lue IIUC correctly, VAR() gets you the underlying Scalar object, but it's a no-op on any kind of value and and non-scalar variables?
20:29 lue (do the values have to be non-scalar too or is that just unfortunate grammar on S12's part?)
20:29 lizmat r: say my @a.VAR
20:29 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/i5jqa4KXA7â�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/i5jqa4KXA7:1â�¤------> [32msay my @a[33mâ��[31m.VAR[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        scoped declaratorâ�¤        constraintâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix stopperâ�¤        i…
20:30 lizmat r: my @a; say @a.VAR
20:30 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«␤»
20:30 lizmat r: my @a; say @a.VAR.WHAT
20:30 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«(Array)␤»
20:30 lizmat r: my @a; say @a.VAR.default
20:30 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
20:30 lizmat r: my @a is default(42); say @a.VAR.default
20:30 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«42␤»
20:31 lue .oO(I'm not sure how VAR is ever useful if it can't give you the underlying Scalar of a non-Scalar object.)
20:31 lue r: say 42.VAR.WHAT
20:31 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
20:31 lue r: say (1,2,3).VAR.WHAT
20:31 jeff_s1 joined #perl6
20:31 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
20:33 lue Either that, or VAR's purpose is completely different from what I got out of S12's description.
20:35 lue Oh. /me should read the entire subsection, as opposed to just the part talking about VAR(), before complaining about being confused.
20:36 moritz r: say (my $).VAR
20:36 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«Any␤»
20:36 moritz r: say (my $).VAR.WHAT
20:36 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«(Scalar)␤»
20:36 zwut00 joined #perl6
20:37 lue r: my $xyzzy = 42; say $xyzzy.name;
20:37 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'Int'␤  in block  at /tmp/q4V2Ys_hz0:1␤␤»
20:37 lue r: my $xyzzy = 42; say $xyzzy.VAR.name;
20:37 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«$xyzzy␤»
20:37 lue r: my $xyzzy = 42; say VAR($xyzzy).name;
20:37 camelia rakudo 19596a: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/oeEwVuIFp8â�¤Undeclared name:â�¤    VAR used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
20:37 lue known bug?
20:38 lizmat NYI rather, I think
20:38 teslos joined #perl6
20:39 masak aye, NYI
20:46 lizmat isn't this LHF though ?
20:47 lizmat sub VAR ($something) { $something.VAR }
20:47 lizmat ?
20:47 jnthn \omething I would thing
20:47 jnthn think
20:47 jnthn Otherwise you throw away the origin container
20:47 * lizmat leaves LHF hanging
20:48 lizmat ah, ok
20:48 lizmat sub VAR (\a) { \a.VAR }
20:48 jnthn but yeah, it's no more involved than tha to make it work
20:48 lizmat sub VAR (\a) { a.VAR }
20:48 jnthn you only \ it on the decl
20:48 jnthn right
20:48 jnthn Exactly that
20:48 jnthn You wrote it now. My as well commit :P
20:48 lizmat okokok
20:48 jnthn *May
20:48 jnthn hehe, I'm teasing :)
20:48 jnthn But still happy to have it implemented :))
20:49 lizmat after I spectested my last Baggy change to speed up .pick and .roll for huge bags
20:50 jnthn .oO( I like huge Bags and I cannot lie... )
20:50 lizmat .oO( just look under your eyes )
20:51 Ulti joined #perl6
20:52 Ulti is there a doc somewhere the subset of Perl6 NQP covers?
20:54 lue shouldn't it be macro VAR (... ? Or does that not matter?
20:56 * Ulti found http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Parr​ot_Virtual_Machine/Not_Quite_Perl
21:02 dalek rakudo/nom: 40ea141 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Baggy.pm:
21:02 dalek rakudo/nom: Implement .pick and .roll that don't blow up for large Bags and KeyBags
21:02 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/40ea141c94
21:03 dalek roast: cf57597 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-types/ (2 files):
21:03 dalek roast: Unfudge tests that were previously taking too long
21:03 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/cf57597281
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21:19 riceandbeans need real quick perl help
21:19 riceandbeans really simple
21:20 riceandbeans https://metacpan.org/module/Net::Blacklist::Client
21:20 riceandbeans it says new( [ARGS] )
21:20 tadzik wow, yapcrussia is still uploading videos from YE2011
21:20 tadzik riceandbeans: that's not quite a Perl 6 module
21:20 riceandbeans if I wanted to add an argument, how would I do it?
21:20 PerlJam riceandbeans: I'm fairly sure you're in the wrong place.  Try #perl
21:20 riceandbeans tadzik: no, it's not
21:20 tadzik riceandbeans: and this is a Perl 6 channel :)
21:20 riceandbeans all I want to know is how I would put the module in there
21:20 riceandbeans err
21:20 riceandbeans the argument
21:22 dalek rakudo/nom: 252008d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/operators.pm:
21:22 dalek rakudo/nom: Temporarily implement VAR()
21:22 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/252008d5e6
21:22 masak riceandbeans: first, listen. you're in the wrong place.
21:22 masak riceandbeans: this is #perl6.
21:22 dalek roast: 7975698 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S06-traits/is-readonly.t:
21:22 dalek roast: Unfudge the one VAR() test
21:22 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/7975698260
21:26 masak lizmat++
21:27 lizmat I guess this just about finishes my Set/Bag work
21:27 lizmat there are still a few issues left
21:27 lizmat my %h = bag(<a>)
21:28 lizmat fails because it tries to put a 1 element list (the bag) into the hash
21:28 lizmat r: my %h=bag(<a>)
21:28 camelia rakudo 40ea14: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤  in method STORE at src/gen/CORE.setting:8376␤  in block  at /tmp/CZ69zGiHFZ:1␤␤»
21:28 lizmat r: my %h := bag(<a>); say %h  # binding works
21:28 camelia rakudo 40ea14: OUTPUT«bag(a)␤»
21:28 lizmat r: my %h := bag(<a>); say %h <a> # binding works
21:28 camelia rakudo 40ea14: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/ftvjwdHGhtâ�¤Undeclared routines:â�¤    a used at line 1â�¤    h used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
21:28 lizmat r: my %h := bag(<a>); say %h<a> # binding works
21:28 camelia rakudo 40ea14: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:29 lizmat the other thing is that Setty and Baggy are no longer Iterative
21:29 lizmat for the simple reason that making them iterative, breaks the currently specced behaviour
21:30 lizmat there are some tests testing for .iteratior, which no longer work and are now skipped
21:30 masak lizmat: for some reason I find the assignment/binding distinction rhymes with my intuition.
21:30 lizmat with mine as well, but are spectests expecting a different behaviour
21:31 lizmat *there are
21:31 masak I provisionally opine that they are in error.
21:31 masak 'night, #perl6
21:31 diakopter 'nite masak
21:31 lizmat gnight masak
21:32 lizmat and finally, there are the hyper operators, such as set(1,2,3) >>+>> 3 not yet working
21:32 lizmat not sure how they would work, though
21:32 lizmat in any case, that's the state of things Setty and Baggy right now
21:33 lizmat and on that thought, I bid you all a good night!
21:33 lizmat gnight #perl6!
21:33 diakopter g'nite lizmat
21:40 Mouq joined #perl6
21:53 teslos joined #perl6
21:53 riceandbeans with cpan does everything stay in /root/.cpan/ ?
21:53 jnthn 'night, #perl6
22:01 timotimo so, a crapton of tests now succeed due to VAR working? :)
22:15 Ulti if anyone is on Mac and uses MacPorts you might want to give this the once over https://gist.github.com/MattOates/6516514
22:19 census joined #perl6
22:20 Ulti hmmm fails after building parrot
22:20 Ulti mkdir /opt/local/include/parrot: Operation not permitted at lib/Parrot/Install.pm line 186    appears to have the prefix passed through to the parrot building, maybe its lost suid?
22:21 * Ulti sleeps
22:24 fridim_ joined #perl6
22:27 geekosaur .tell Ulti MacPorts does not build as root and can't write outside the build area
22:27 yoleaux geekosaur: I'll pass your message to Ulti.
22:32 riceandbeans is parrot to perl what yarv is to ruby?
22:33 diakopter riceandbeans: parrot is...
22:33 diakopter not to perl
22:36 EvanTeitelman joined #perl6
22:57 sjohnson *awk* polly want a perl 6 *awk*
22:57 TimToady what he *sed*
22:57 sjohnson :3
23:07 teslos joined #perl6
23:10 lue *ack*! I feel there's a pun there, but I can't quite *grep* any of it!
23:11 * TimToady doesn't *find* that funny
23:13 sjohnson grep funny jokes.txt || echo ':('
23:18 lue sjohnson: I *echo* your sentiments. People who put spaces in filenames are terrible people.
23:18 zwut00 left #perl6
23:20 riceandbeans shutup before I put a *finger* in your eyeball
23:22 lue .oO(Let's find a *cd* of calming music before this fight escalates and we have to *shutdown*.)
23:24 cognominal joined #perl6
23:26 riceandbeans I need to *locate* the button on the *top* of my terminal to end this session *at* a reasonable *time* and *date* because this is making me want to break the *display*
23:26 riceandbeans done
23:26 diakopter bye :)
23:27 lue Are you sure you wish to *exit* this punning session?
23:27 riceandbeans lue: are you *fsck*ing kidding me?
23:28 riceandbeans it makes me want to *kill* myself
23:29 lue Hey woah! I was just running a simple *[* on whether it was time to stop dragging this on :) ]
23:30 riceandbeans don't you have a job or something?
23:30 diakopter do you? :)
23:30 TimToady *du* you?
23:31 lue I was just trying to have a *nice* time here.
23:33 lue .oO(What *df*erence would it make? Anyone using linux long enough would have committed quite a few commands to memory. I think I'll *curl* into a ball and stop this now.)
23:34 TimToady *yes*
23:34 * diakopter writes to the wall man more or less
23:35 geekosaur writes *at*, perhaps?
23:35 lue me just now: .oO(wait, there's a yes command...) :D :D :D
23:36 TimToady tee hee
23:36 TimToady look, this is just too easy 'cuz there's so many commands
23:36 lue I was wondering where "no" was, but reading the man page for yes answered that for me.
23:37 TimToady ssh!
23:37 lue .oO(and here I thought I would actually need to *git help* if this went on further.)
23:37 TimToady more or less
23:38 lue This session has taught me a valuable perl of wisdom: there's too much puntential in linux commands.
23:38 diakopter zip your trap until he who sleeps returns
23:39 * TimToady is touched
23:39 diakopter rn<TAB> => rnano
23:40 diakopter git'er done, he splained
23:41 TimToady cc señor
23:45 lue I think it's time to clang the bell and end this. Future pun sessions are already vi-ing to overthrow this one.
23:45 diakopter ssh
23:46 TimToady there's an echo in here
23:46 diakopter heh
23:46 TimToady but yeah, I think we should zip it for now
23:48 teslos joined #perl6
23:51 Vlavv joined #perl6
23:55 * perigrin needs to find a different place to slocate himself.
23:55 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
23:56 diakopter updatedb

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