Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-09-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 timotimo huh, strange
00:02 timotimo /home/siddhant/rakudo/install/bin/parrot  -  exists and is readable + executable?
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04:31 moritz \o
04:32 popl hi
04:33 moritz good morning popl
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04:34 popl I'm running spec_smoldertest right now (I just finished building rakudo/parrot) so there will be some more qa data soon
04:34 popl I think I counted 918 tests
04:34 popl it's only through about 20 of them
04:35 popl (not that it's terribly interesting)
04:36 popl moritz: good morning
04:37 popl perl6 is not even released but it's very old. I have a lot to catch up on. :P
04:45 diakopter popl: well, there are regular releases by some peoples' definition of release, but not by others'
04:46 popl diakopter: yes, I understand it is nebulous
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07:14 atroxaper Hello #perl6 !
07:15 atroxaper Does anybody know, does moritz has plans for making R* release for windows?
07:17 nwc10 atroxaper: I believe that usually Pm has done that
07:18 atroxaper Hope so...
07:19 atroxaper Hello pmichaud. Will you build windows R* release? Please ;)
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07:29 moritz just for the record, I don't have access to any windows machine with the appropriate development/compilation toolchain
07:30 moritz if anybody wants to finance a sufficiently powerful laptop for dual boot and windows development, I might reconsider :-)
07:31 atroxaper moritz: ok)
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07:42 FROGGS_ moritz: I have a windows7 + visual studio, if there is a guide I'll do my best
07:45 moritz FROGGS_: the Makefile has an 'msi' target
07:45 FROGGS_ hopefully it complains nicely about missing tools :o)
07:50 masak morning, #perl6
07:50 FROGGS_ o/
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08:10 moritz .seen Mouq
08:10 yoleaux I saw Mouq 25 Sep 2013 04:42Z in #perl6: <Mouq> Oh, cool, I understand. Thank you TimToady
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08:30 lizmat good *, #perl6!
08:30 moritz good morning, lizmat
08:31 masak lizmat! \o/ good morning!
08:31 lizmat jnthn: re jnthn: re http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-09-26#i_7637196 , the pop_phaser approach is only because there is currently no way (that I know of) to create a "remove_phaser" method that accepts the block to be removed
08:32 lizmat geekosaur: note that the initial aproach *did* have a once block insider an ENTER phaser
08:32 lizmat disadvantage of that, is that you will still run the ENTER phaser each time the sub/method is called
08:32 lizmat my approach would be that the ENTER phaser is only run once, to tell the world the sub/method has been deprecated
08:33 atroxaper lizmat o/
08:33 lizmat so you could argue that this is a premature micro optimization
08:34 lizmat otoh, having the capability that phasers disable themselves, might be a good thing to have anyway
08:34 masak lizmat: sounds like you're sniffing very close to the "handle" model/solution.
08:35 masak i.e. at the point of adding the phaser, a handle object is returned, a kind of IDisposable that knows how to un-add the phaser.
08:35 masak we do that for function wrapping, which means a pancake can be removed from the middle of the pancake stack. it's quite pretty.
08:39 masak (it's also possible I'm completely off the mark here... but a quick skim of the backlog caused me to think of handles.)
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08:41 atroxaper r: for ((1...3) X (3...1)) Z ^Inf -> $i, $j, $n {say "-$n|$i:$j-"}
08:41 camelia rakudo a79c94: OUTPUT«-3|1:0-␤-2|1:1-␤-1|2:3-␤-5|4:1-​␤-3|2:6-␤-8|7:2-␤-2|2:9-␤-11|10:1-␤-3|​3:12-␤-14|13:3-␤-3|2:15-␤-17|16:1-␤»
08:42 atroxaper Am i doing something wrong?
08:46 masak atroxaper: I think the tuple doesn't flatten like you think it will.
08:48 atroxaper masak: i just want to X two arrays and add index for that.
08:50 atroxaper r: for ((1...3) X (3...1)) -> $i, $j {say "-$i:$j-"}
08:50 camelia rakudo a79c94: OUTPUT«-1:3-␤-1:2-␤-1:1-␤-2:3-␤​-2:2-␤-2:1-␤-3:3-␤-3:2-␤-3:1-␤»
08:51 atroxaper But how can i and index for that ?! )
08:51 masak r: say ((1..3 X reverse 1..3) Z ^Inf).perl
08:51 camelia rakudo a79c94: OUTPUT«((1, 0), (3, 1), (1, 2), (2, 3), (1, 4), (1, 5), (2, 6), (3, 7), (2, 8), (2, 9), (2, 10), (1, 11), (3, 12), (3, 13), (3, 14), (2, 15), (3, 16), (1, 17)).list␤»
08:52 masak there's your problem.
08:52 masak r: class Blorb { trusts ::Blorb::Handle }; class Blorb::Handle { has &!remove; submethod BUILD(:&!remove) {}; method remove { &!remove() } }; class BlorbHolder { method add($blorb) { say "$blorb added"; return Blorb::Handle.new(:remove({ self.remove($blorb) })) }; method remove($blorb) { say "$blorb removed" } }; my $handle = BlorbHolder.new.add(Blorb.new); $handle.remove
08:52 camelia rakudo a79c94: OUTPUT«Blorb<-25000658> added␤Blorb<-25000658> removed␤»
08:52 masak lizmat: ^^
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08:54 atroxaper masak: i should think about that. Thank you for hint!
08:55 masak essentially, tuple parentheses are too "soft" and they "break" when you Z on them.
08:56 masak r: for ((1..3 X reverse 1..3).tree Z ^Inf) -> [$i, $j], $n { say "($i, $j) -- $n" }
08:56 camelia rakudo a79c94: OUTPUT«(1, 3) -- 0␤(1, 2) -- 1␤(1, 1) -- 2␤(2, 3) -- 3␤(2, 2) -- 4␤(2, 1) -- 5␤(3, 3) -- 6␤(3, 2) -- 7␤(3, 1) -- 8␤»
08:56 * masak bows
08:56 masak .tree did le trick.
08:57 moritz it usually does :-)
08:57 moritz .list in one way, .tree in the other
08:58 masak right.
08:58 masak that accords with my mental model.
08:58 masak and X and Z tend to .list if they have to.
08:58 masak just like many of the other primitives.
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08:58 atroxaper Wow!
08:58 atroxaper Cool!
08:58 masak so .tree becomes, semantically, "there is some interesting structure in there that I'd like to turn into []s"
08:59 masak like, "harden" the parentheses.
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08:59 lizmat masak: it is indeed very close to the handle solution
09:00 lizmat however, the trait_mod doesn't have anywhere to return to
09:00 lizmat the return value of adding the ENTER phaser would be needed *inside* that phaser
09:00 lizmat I guess we could do something like:
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09:01 lizmat my $handle; $handle = $r.add_phaser('ENTER', { $handle.remove } ) ?
09:05 masak that looks... one step too superfluous, somehow.
09:05 masak specifically, having to manually specify the removal.
09:06 lizmat well, I want something that will not interfere with normal phaser execution
09:06 lizmat so checking a flag with every phaser execution, is a nono in my book
09:08 masak *nod*
09:08 lizmat adding some overhead when creating a self-annihilating phaser, is ok
09:08 masak "Remember that Rust is still a rapidly changing language, and releases have very little connotation of stability, support, or any other guarantees." -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6454443
09:11 masak see also the child comment, about "maturity #5 - production ready"
09:12 masak it would be interesting to map Perl 6 to those maturity levels.
09:16 nwc10 I don't think that it's possible to generate a URL for this page that defaults it to the "3 year" range filter: https://www.ohloh.net/p/parrot/commits/summary
09:18 nwc10 I think that there is now more activity on https://www.ohloh.net/p/moarvm/commits/summary + https://www.ohloh.net/p/nqp/commits/summary + https://www.ohloh.net/p/rakudo/commits/summary than on https://www.ohloh.net/p/perl/commits/summary
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09:19 masak nwc10++ # digging up these
09:19 nwc10 I had been wondering for a couple of days if aggregate perl6 (core) activity is now more than perl5 (core)
09:19 nwc10 (sorry, chromatic, I missed the spaces)
09:20 masak nwc10: that would be... very odd.
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09:20 nwc10 not necessarily
09:20 masak I can imagine that it's *true*, mind you.
09:21 masak but it still feels extremely strange.
09:21 nwc10 1) it's self hosted. It's more accessible
09:21 nwc10 2) There is more obvious stuff to *do*
09:21 nwc10 3) It's far more "progress" than "maint"
09:22 masak or, in other words: 1) easy onramps, 2) fun, 3) goal
09:23 masak it suddenly strikes me that we should milk 3) for all its worth.
09:23 jnthn o/
09:23 masak I mean, I've realized before that we need to set milestones and establish where we're going. (and we have, to an extent.)
09:24 masak but maybe it's the biggest unbound parameter at our disposal.
09:24 masak to *blast* out our current status and what needs to be done to reach the nice goal, to attract contributors.
09:24 nwc10 yes. I'd not thought of it like that
09:25 masak the message not being "hey, look how done we are"
09:25 masak but "hey, look how on the way to done we are -- care to give a hand?"
09:25 masak we blog till we're blue in the face trying to show how feature-complete and stable Perl 6 is.
09:25 masak maybe that's not what will attract people.
09:26 nwc10 maybe. But I think that a decade ago perl 5 sucked in contributors (at least partly) because enough of it worked to get them using it, but stuff they *also* wanted was broken and needed fixing
09:26 masak maybe the sense of being a settler, an early adopter, will.
09:26 masak right.
09:26 lizmat afk
09:27 masak the right mix of "I can use this" and "wouldn't it be nice if..."
09:27 nwc10 so I'm wondering if the road to getting more contributors is to suck them in from users
09:27 bonsaikitten are there any "frameworks" in perl6 ?
09:27 bonsaikitten stuff that I'd casually use because it's awesome (and not stuff I need to write myself)
09:28 nwc10 is Rakudo on JVM now good enough to port ilbot to Perl 6?
09:29 jnthn .tell lizmat The remove the phaser thing is a premature opt. I've only been saying as much for the last week. :(
09:29 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
09:32 jnthn .tell lizmat Not to mention that working to make *deprecated* things faster feels odd. The point is for people to stop using them; "they're an iota slower 'cus of the deprecation warning" is a motivator to stop using 'em.
09:32 yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
09:34 jnthn nwc10: It has the sockets for it...
09:44 masak if it's time to port ilbot to Rakudo/JVM, I'm willing to head or participate in a hackathon that does this.
09:44 masak some suitable weekend or other.
09:48 nwc10 beware that I'm saying this things from a somewhat outside/high level/unfamiliar with the code/probably not able to help do work
09:49 nwc10 but I would hope that first ilbot and then later the website publishing atop Perl 6 would
09:49 nwc10 a) generate useful reusable code
09:49 nwc10 b) be a prominent example of dogfood
09:49 nwc10 c) it would amuse me if the various Perl 5 IRC channels were being logged by Perl 6
09:49 nwc10 (and the NSA, and GCHQ, and the Chinese, etc)
09:50 nwc10 (and no, I'm not going to say anything stupid because the CIA are just down the hill from me, and I don't want the black segways to come visiting)
09:51 nwc10 at least, I hope it would be that, and not predator drones
09:51 jnthn oh noes you just disclosed their secret location!
09:51 masak you never know these days.
09:51 nwc10 jnthn: the secret/"secret" has been an utter farce over the past month
09:53 nwc10 apparently it ended up with 100 "friends of architecture" coming to photograph it:
09:53 nwc10 http://derstandard.at/1378248419619/Ei​n-virtueller-Spaziergang-zur-NSAVilla
09:53 FROGGS hehe
09:54 nwc10 the building in question has a police cubical outside, a security guard inside, bristling with CCTV cameras, and *no name plate*
09:54 nwc10 which immediately gives it away as interesting
09:54 nwc10 so I asked, and a friend said "it's the CIA building. Everyone round here knows that"
09:54 nwc10 the couldn't have made it more obvious if they tried
09:55 jnthn haha
09:55 jnthn fail
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09:56 FROGGS but that is really a nice building :o)
09:56 nwc10 http://goo.gl/maps/tptyE and it's not blurred out
10:09 * masak thinks that people in the west are too happy with their iPods, TV series and soda machines to ever rebel against their government, no matter how power-hungry, privacy-grabbing, or infringing on human rights
10:10 masak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses has been refined to the point where power doesn't have to worry.
10:12 masak I would be outraged about it, but I'm too busy watching "Boston Legal" right now.
10:12 jnthn tbh, I don't think it's "just the west". "We'll let you make money and have iPods if you leave us to the politics" is working reasonably well in China. :)
10:12 masak that's because China has becoming more western (in that sense) for the past 20 or so years :)
10:13 jnthn Aye
10:13 masak become*
10:13 jnthn Ah, you meant "west" as in "value wise" rather than "geography wise"...
10:14 masak also, having a populace leave you alone with your politics is especially easy in a country where for the past 40 years or so, *everything* was about politics, like it or not.
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10:35 dalek rakudo/nom: 8182d13 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
10:35 dalek rakudo/nom: Just use a once block for is DEPRECATED and be done with it
10:35 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8182d13e34
10:35 jnthn lizmat++
10:35 lizmat mind you, I think it would be good to have add_phaser return a Phaser object, that you could call .remove on
10:35 yoleaux 09:29Z <jnthn> lizmat: The remove the phaser thing is a premature opt. I've only been saying as much for the last week. :(
10:35 yoleaux 09:32Z <jnthn> lizmat: Not to mention that working to make *deprecated* things faster feels odd. The point is for people to stop using them; "they're an iota slower 'cus of the deprecation warning" is a motivator to stop using 'em.
10:55 masak an iota of a motivation.
10:55 lizmat that much ?
11:00 lizmat sorry, can't be less handwavy than that
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11:29 Woodi hallo :)
11:29 lizmat Woodi o/
11:31 Woodi after opening that NSAvilla link my MS occupiet box frozen hard... maybe it was contacting "home" ? ;) even ctrlAltDel didn't worked :)
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11:32 samri helo, what is best implementation of perl6 to install and are there any book to buy about it? i checked oreilly i didnt find any..
11:32 tadzik Rakudo is the most complete implementation, samri
11:32 tadzik at the moment, there are no books to buy. There is one free book, a draft actually
11:33 tadzik it might be a bit outdated, but you may find it to your liking. It's listed on http://perl6.org/documentation
11:33 samri so there is no up to date references on this language?
11:33 Woodi but on topic: Perl6 need GUI, IMO. like Java and C# - without GUI their instant-like market acceptation would be imposible...
11:34 FROGGS C:\Perl\bin\perl.exe -MExtUtils::Command -e chmod 755 modules/rakudo-debugger/perl6-debug.exe
11:34 FROGGS Cannot chmod 755 modules/rakudo-debugger/perl6-debug.exe:No such file or directory at C:/Perl/lib/ExtUtils/Command.pm line 274.
11:34 moritz samri: there is reference at http://perlcabal.org/syn/
11:34 moritz Woodi: then write one
11:34 FROGGS (when building on windows to make the msi)
11:35 tadzik Woodi: it should be quite possible to do a GUI these days, talking to JVM classes
11:35 tadzik well volunteered :)
11:36 FROGGS moritz: I could create the msi but the debugger would not be included
11:36 samri just got this when searched:
11:36 samri O'Reilly Media and the authors of the current Learning Perl are looking foward to a book on Perl 6 when it's stable. Honestly, we started a long time ago, twice actually, and everything we wrote is now obsolete or has disappeared from the language. It's our hope that someday they'll settle on the final language, allowing us time to make the book.  When we start writing the book, we'll use this domain to let you participate in the proc
11:36 samri so i guess it is too early to learn it..
11:37 moritz FROGGS: well, fixing the build would be preferable, of course :-)
11:37 moritz FROGGS: maybe you need 'make install' first?
11:38 FROGGS moritz: I guess the debugger is still broken
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11:38 FROGGS this was `nmake install` btw
11:38 moritz :/
11:41 FROGGS moritz: at least panda seems ok now, it doesn't copy the panda.bat by default to the bin dir
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11:44 moritz FROGGS: anyway, I'd prefer a .msi without perl6-debugger to no .msi at all
11:45 FROGGS moritz: I am uploading a RC atm
11:46 moritz \o/
11:47 FROGGS moritz: so if you want to buy another machine, install windows and try it you are welcome :o)
11:47 nwc10 an .msi without a debugger can be replaced with an .msi with a debugger
11:47 nwc10 (if the problem is in the .msi build)
11:47 nwc10 FROGGS: IIRC he said he was quite happy for *someone else* to buy him another
11:47 FROGGS nwc10: the debugger itself is broken on all platforms
11:47 nwc10 oh :-(
11:47 jnthn huh...
11:48 jnthn I only fixed it a few weeks back...
11:48 nwc10 although it's probably cheaper to buy beer to distract jnthn and use his machine while he's busy
11:48 jnthn What's happened to break it?
11:48 FROGGS jnthn: I'll give you a paste in a few mionutes
11:48 FROGGS -o
11:49 * lizmat probably broke it with method2sub branch ?
11:49 moritz lizmat: that was merged after the rakudo release, no?
11:49 lizmat yes
11:49 lizmat ok
11:49 moritz lizmat: then it wouldn't be broken in R*
11:49 lizmat then no  :-)
11:50 nwc10 bisect! bisect!
11:50 jnthn fwiw, I just built it against a Rakudo and NQP built yesterday and it runs OK here.
11:50 nwc10 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/03/the-w​orks-on-my-machine-certification-program.html
11:51 jnthn (using Makefile)
11:51 jnthn nwc10: :P
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: 575afc0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: Make sure a problem in reporting, does not inhibit the report
11:53 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/575afc057a
11:54 jnthn lizmat: You didn't need the curlies there, I think... ;)
11:54 jnthn lizmat: What did you find to trigger that, ooc? Something in setting building?
11:55 lizmat yes
11:55 jnthn lizmat: OK.
11:55 jnthn If it was triggerable in some other way it'd deserve an RT... :)
11:56 lizmat no, it was me being stupid in the setting
11:56 lizmat basically, optimizer telling me that DEPRECATED() should be called with 2 parameters
11:56 lizmat instead of one
11:56 jnthn Nice :)
11:56 jnthn Yeah, as it goes about doing inline analysis it can also spot things that'll never possibly work :)
11:57 lizmat and that erorr message bombed
11:58 lizmat before: Method 'Str<3477132080187517822>' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'
11:58 lizmat after: CHECK FAILED:
11:58 lizmat Calling 'DEPRECATED' will never work with argument types (str) (lines 1415, 1415, 6510, 6510, 7422, 7422, 8446, 8446, 8450, 8450, 8862, 8862, 9123, 9123, 14980, 14980, 15302, 15302)
11:58 lizmat Expected:
11:59 FROGGS jnthn: that looks more like a pandabug: https://gist.github.com/FR​OGGS/4cb5ec025cf7e2203908
11:59 jnthn Hm...why's it dupe...
11:59 jnthn the line nums
11:59 lizmat because it expected 2 params ?  and I only gave it one ?
11:59 jnthn Feels odd
12:00 FROGGS even even
12:00 jnthn No, it should report once per call
12:00 * lizmat running spectest now, will check in a bit
12:00 jnthn I mean, we can squish 'em but I wanna know where they're coming from. :)
12:01 jnthn oh neins...zugriff verweigert
12:01 jnthn But yeah, that's while installing Term::ANSIColor...
12:01 moritz jnthn: tray again please
12:01 moritz *try
12:02 jnthn ah, it means "access denied"
12:02 jnthn Odd...
12:03 jnthn I think I've seen that happen now and then on Windows with Panda...
12:03 dalek rakudo/nom: 0327e30 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
12:03 dalek rakudo/nom: jnthn++ tells me the {} were not needed
12:03 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0327e30022
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12:04 lizmat r: sub a ($a) {}; a("a","b","c","d")
12:04 camelia rakudo 8182d1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'a' will never work with argument types (Str, Str, Str, Str) (lines 1, 1)␤    Expected: :($a)␤»
12:04 lizmat seems to always double, regardless of # params
12:05 jnthn yeah
12:05 jnthn Will look later...
12:08 FROGGS hmm, maybe its cwd is wrong and it can't find the .work?
12:08 jnthn That'd probably not give access denied, though?
12:11 FROGGS yeah, and it checks -d on that path before deleting it :/
12:11 FROGGS ahh, wait
12:12 dalek rakudo/nom: 155487c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (20 files):
12:12 dalek rakudo/nom: Mark "exists" as DEPRECATED, change all calls of .exists to .exists_key|pos
12:12 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/155487c889
12:12 lizmat errands&
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12:20 * JimmyZ wonders why exists  is DEPRECATED
12:21 moritz JimmyZ: to emit deprecation warnings
12:22 JimmyZ I meant why 'exists' is not used
12:22 tadzik :)
12:23 moritz JimmyZ: because it's ambiguous
12:23 moritz positional vs. associative
12:26 JimmyZ looks like it is
12:28 FROGGS jnthn: yes, doing `nmake` works...
12:29 * [Coke] waves to the room before dayjobbing.
12:29 yoleaux 26 Sep 2013 23:48Z <sisar_> [Coke]: thanks for looking into it, but no luck. It fails with: http://sprunge.us/fVAH. I'm unfamiliar with the build process, but I thought that invoking '--gen-parrot' would automaticall build nqp too.
12:29 * jnthn waves at [Coke] while dayjobbing
12:30 JimmyZ waves at [Coke] after dayjobbing
12:31 jnthn Timezones! \o/
12:31 * nwc10 merely waves
12:32 [Coke] .to sisar - hurm, maybe I was looking at the wrong line on the initial paste there. what version of rakudo are you using? what platform? have you tried removing the existing nqp directory and trying again?
12:32 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to sisar.
12:33 * masak .oO( if you wave at someone while dayjobbing, does the observer experience the Jobbler effect? )
12:39 FROGGS iiiiiieeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuu
12:39 kivutar joined #perl6
12:40 daxim_ aioeu
12:40 FROGGS no
12:41 FROGGS well, maybe it is aioeu in austria :o)
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13:16 ssqq #parrot channel no person
13:17 moritz ssqq: try #parrot on irc.perl.org
13:17 moritz though last I looked there, not much was going on
13:18 moritz ok, 3 days ago there was a bit of actual parrot discussion
13:19 ssqq thanks moritz, If the project of parrot have some problem?
13:21 moritz ssqq: lack of active contributors and development
13:22 ssqq moritz: If the parrot have been stable enough?
13:22 moritz ssqq: stable enough for what?
13:22 ajr joined #perl6
13:23 ssqq moritz: stable enough for run Rakudo.
13:23 ssqq The network name of irc.perl.org is?
13:23 moritz ssqq: it runs rakudo, yes. Though not as fast as we would like :-)
13:23 prevost joined #perl6
13:23 moritz ssqq: magnet
13:24 JimmyZ ssqq: PerlVim, 你好
13:24 ssqq JimmyZ: How are you
13:24 ssqq JimmyZ: Nice to see you here.
13:24 JimmyZ er
13:25 ssqq thanks moritz.
13:27 JimmyZ ssqq: 你的 makefile 实现怎么样了
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13:41 ssqq JimmyZ: makefile 早就不写了。
13:41 FROGGS jnthn: star's Makefile is to blame about the perl-debug build. it prints the the statements but it does not execute them
13:42 jnthn huh? :)
13:42 FROGGS jnthn: I temporary prefixed them with cmd /c, and it works
13:42 jnthn ok :)
13:42 jnthn .oO( Makefail )
13:42 FROGGS yeah
13:42 FROGGS no idea why it does it like that
13:43 FROGGS k, creating another RC of the msi :o)
13:44 ssqq JimmyZ:  我原来以为一个内置的 make 会大大简化一个解释器的模型。
13:45 FROGGS moritz: SCHNARRENBLARKEN make SCHMETTERLING KAMPFPANZERWAGEN!!
13:45 FROGGS :P
13:46 FROGGS <--- coffee
13:46 ssqq JimmyZ: 现在发现影响一个语言解释器的最重要的东西是语法。
13:47 ssqq JimmyZ: 一个复杂语法的语言,最终将处理一个非常复杂的数据结构。
13:48 JimmyZ ssqq: 呵呵。我之前就讲过不可行了
13:50 JimmyZ FROGGS: try add 'SHELL = cmd' to Makefile
13:50 FROGGS too bad, windows is already shutting down :o)
13:51 FROGGS I'll take a note and try later, thanks!
13:51 ssqq JimmyZ: Perl 6 在正则表达式和语言表达方面的能力越强大,Perl 6能参与进来的人就越少。因为太复杂了。
13:52 JimmyZ ssqq: 你多虑了
13:52 timotimo perl6 is not too complicated! ;)
13:52 * JimmyZ .oO( timotimo knows about chinese ... )
13:53 timotimo does that concern perl6 the language (to users) or rakudo the implementation (to core developers)?
13:53 ssqq JimmyZ: 我最近看了非常精简的 Lua,非常简洁的 Ruby, 和扩展性很好的 Lisp。
13:53 timotimo 我不知道多少中国人。谷歌翻译帮助我了解。
13:54 timotimo 翻译结果不包含“谷歌”或“翻译”。我很高兴。
13:54 timotimo 没有人会了解我的秘密。
13:54 JimmyZ hehe
13:54 brrt can't really follow this discussion anymore
13:54 timotimo huehuehuehuehue
13:54 timotimo (from another asian country)
13:55 iSlug joined #perl6
13:56 dalek nqp: bc537f3 | Mouq++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/Actions.nqp:
13:56 dalek nqp: Fix bug with integer ** quantifiers
13:56 dalek nqp:
13:56 dalek nqp: / a ** 2_0 / previously matched "a" two times.
13:56 dalek nqp: Now uses the .ast of <decint>.
13:56 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/bc537f35ec
13:56 timotimo cool! :)
13:56 ssqq joined #perl6
13:56 jnthn oops :)
13:56 jnthn We probably need tests for that :)
13:57 tadzik wow :)
13:57 tadzik Mouq++
13:58 JimmyZ ssqq: 有空了解一下 MoarVM
13:59 FROGGS nqp: say("aaaa" ~~ / a ** 2_0 .. 4_0 /)
13:59 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Spaces not allowed in bare range at line 2, near " 4_0 /)"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14693 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5223) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
13:59 FROGGS nqp: say("aaaa" ~~ / a ** 2_0..4_0 /)
13:59 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«aaaa␤»
13:59 FROGGS alright
13:59 kivutar joined #perl6
13:59 FROGGS now I see the min.ast in the diff too :o)
14:00 jnthn nqp: say("aaaa" ~~ / a ** 4_0..2_0 /)
14:00 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Empty range at line 2, near " /)"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14693 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5223) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
14:00 jnthn That also needs a fix.
14:00 jnthn It's in Grammar.pm
14:00 jnthn no, wait, I meant
14:00 FROGGS LTA?
14:00 jnthn nqp: say("aaaa" ~~ / a ** 4..2_0 /)
14:00 camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Empty range at line 2, near " /)"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14693 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5223) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
14:00 jnthn That's the one. That should not be an error.
14:00 FROGGS ohh
14:03 FROGGS ohh, call for papers for the german perl workshop 2014 in my inbox
14:05 FROGGS moritz: you are going to come to hannover in march?
14:06 FROGGS timotimo: you?
14:06 FROGGS I don't need to ask liz I guess :o)
14:07 timotimo hm, hannover is pretty far for me (i'm not an airplane person (though how cool would that be?)), so probably not
14:07 FROGGS the perl workshop in berlin was awesome!
14:08 FROGGS sad that there are usually no hackathons
14:08 tadzik there was one in Erlangen, didn't attract many people
14:08 tadzik I think it attracted 3: me, moritz and jnthn
14:08 FROGGS 130ppl in berlin
14:08 FROGGS *g*
14:08 tadzik add masak to that, and that's 4 people :)
14:09 FROGGS still LT "A".ord
14:10 jnthn Hm, I guess Hannover is a shortish train journey from Hamburg?
14:10 FROGGS jnthn: correct :o)
14:10 jnthn Hm, so it's trainable from here if I wanted to come.
14:11 FROGGS that would be nice
14:11 FROGGS if you are not going to come I'll give a perl6-status talk too
14:11 FROGGS ... in germish
14:11 jnthn You could do that anyway :)
14:11 FROGGS yeah
14:11 jnthn And I could find other things to talk about
14:12 jnthn I'm pretty sure I won't talk about anything in germish :)
14:12 FROGGS I have time till mid december to decide what to say
14:12 FROGGS (and how to say it)
14:13 timotimo hmm, when jnthn needs to "find other things to talk about" he usually comes up with something that leaves mouths agape :P
14:13 timotimo hoelzro: where do we have to look to find out the current progress on the perl6 syntax highlighting on github?
14:14 FROGGS yeah, and that means he will needs something extra-ordinary to hack on a few weeks before the conference
14:14 FROGGS like... what if bytecode could hack for us? and then we need to call the hacking bytecode "backer" or so
14:17 FROGGS timotimo: I guess first v1.7 of pygments must be releases: https://bitbucket.org/birkenfel​d/pygments-main/src/tip/CHANGES
14:17 timotimo https://github.com/tmm1/pygments.rb/pull/73 - this is the PR we were all looking at
14:18 PacoAir joined #perl6
14:19 PerlJam timotimo: Add a comment to the PR shaming github for lagging behind bitbucket?  ;)
14:19 GlitchMr rn: say sort <1 10 2>
14:19 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«1 2 10␤»
14:19 camelia ..rakudo 155487: OUTPUT«1 10 2␤»
14:19 TimToady I suppose out-of-sync highlighting would have to be called 色ばけ
14:19 GlitchMr rn: say <1 10 2>.perl
14:19 camelia rakudo 155487: OUTPUT«("1", "10", "2")␤»
14:19 camelia ..niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«(val("1"), val("10"), val("2"))␤»
14:19 timotimo PerlJam: i'm not sure i understand
14:22 PerlJam timotimo: apparently bitbucket.org already does perl6 syntax highlighting
14:24 timotimo it ... does!?
14:24 timotimo that's neat!
14:24 timotimo do you have an example link?
14:25 PerlJam timotimo: no, just http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2013-09-17#i_7596584
14:25 timotimo https://bitbucket.org/birkenfeld/pygments-ma​in/src/7304e4759ae65343d89a51359ca538912519c​c31/tests/examplefiles/RoleQ.pm6?at=default
14:26 timotimo you can't spell properly without perl
14:27 jnthn nice :)
14:27 FROGGS absolutely
14:28 TimToady you can't spell nice without c
14:29 PerlJam timotimo: superlative ;)
14:29 FROGGS /o\ now I got it
14:29 diakopter you can't spell without the
14:30 TimToady sure you can, just use the other one instead
14:30 timotimo FROGGS: not many of those work on two levels like this one
14:30 diakopter no, I meant *you*  O_O
14:30 pmurias Woodi: re GUI, isn't most new GUI stuff done as web apps? ;)
14:31 timotimo we have SWT on jvm ;)
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14:36 GlitchMr ($by.?count // 2) < 2
14:36 GlitchMr What does .? syntax mean?
14:36 TimToady lizmat: actually, we should pessimize the deprecated function, not be trying to optimize it; maybe throw in a sleep 1 into the function we're deprecating :)
14:36 GlitchMr $by is subroutine.
14:36 timotimo if the call doesn't succeed (no method found or something) return Nil instead
14:37 timotimo r: say "foo".?heeeyooooo()
14:37 camelia rakudo 155487: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
14:37 timotimo r: say "foo".heeeyooooo()
14:37 camelia rakudo 155487: OUTPUT«No such method 'heeeyooooo' for invocant of type 'Str'␤  in block  at /tmp/4AOZFBYVix:1␤␤»
14:37 GlitchMr oh,ok
14:37 GlitchMr So it's allowed to not exist.
14:37 timotimo probably also turns exceptions into nil
14:37 PerlJam GlitchMr: aye, it doesn't die when the method doesn't exist
14:37 timotimo r: class A { method test() { die "oh noes!" } }; say A.test()
14:37 camelia rakudo 155487: OUTPUT«oh noes!␤  in method test at /tmp/PMT_nyFXyS:1␤  in block  at /tmp/PMT_nyFXyS:1␤␤»
14:38 timotimo r: class A { method test() { die "oh noes!" } }; say A.?test()
14:38 camelia rakudo 155487: OUTPUT«oh noes!␤  in method test at /tmp/x5_PScbt8O:1␤  in block  at /tmp/x5_PScbt8O:1␤␤»
14:38 timotimo ah. nope.
14:38 jnthn No, it's just about if a method with the name exists
14:38 FROGGS I guess it is like: A.can('test') ?? A.test() !! Nil
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14:39 jnthn Yes, but a tad more efficient. :)
14:39 FROGGS sure
14:39 lizmat TimToady: first make sure the spectest is not calling any deprecated functions, then I'll add the sleep 1 :-)
14:39 TimToady r: try "foo".heeeyoooo()
14:39 camelia rakudo 155487: ( no output )
14:40 lizmat $ perl6 -e 'my %h; say %h.exists("a")'
14:40 lizmat Method 'EnumMap.exists' has been deprecated, please use the :exists adverb instead  in block  at -e:1
14:40 lizmat instead of mentioning exists_key
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14:41 dalek rakudo/nom: 384a0fa | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/ (8 files):
14:41 dalek rakudo/nom: Mention the :exists adverb, instead of 'exists_key'
14:41 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/384a0fa76b
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14:44 TimToady I'm sure the user felt they were calling Hash.exists, not EnumMap.exists :)
14:45 TimToady so maybe the message should look at the actual type of the invocant, not the static type
14:45 TimToady or maybe it should put both if they differ
14:46 lizmat will fix after cycling&
14:46 dalek nqp: 8bcdb14 | Mouq++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/ (2 files):
14:46 dalek nqp: Fix empty range error in ** quantifier
14:46 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/8bcdb14e40
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15:12 moritz FROGGS: I'm not sure I'll make it to GPW2014, due to the dates
15:13 FROGGS moritz: some day we will make it to the same conference ;o)
15:13 moritz FROGGS: or we just visit each other :-)
15:13 moritz FROGGS: where are you based?
15:14 FROGGS moritz: near Berlin
15:15 FROGGS .tell BenGoldberg This issue might need to go to RT (via rakudobug@perl.org) https://github.com/rakudo/star/issues/31
15:15 yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to BenGoldberg.
15:16 FROGGS brb
15:17 FROGGS joined #perl6
15:17 FROGGS btw: http://froggs.de/perl6/rakudo-star-2013.09-RC1.msi
15:17 FROGGS spread the world! o/
15:17 moritz should I upload that to rakudo.org?
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15:52 sisar so I deleted my rakudo directory, started with a fresh clone, but I'm still unable to build nqp: http://sprunge.us/AdSb . Any pointers as to what may be wonrg ? I'm using Cygwin (32-bit) on Windows 7 (64-bit).
15:52 yoleaux 12:32Z <[Coke]> sisar: - hurm, maybe I was looking at the wrong line on the initial paste there. what version of rakudo are you using? what platform? have you tried removing the existing nqp directory and trying again?
15:55 sisar I'm behind a HTTP proxy, maybe that is the problem ? However, I've set git to use the proxy, and it works. git was able to fetch the rakudo repo over https, and was able to fetch the parrot repo too.
15:57 sisar I also used the command "git config --system url."https://".insteadOf git://" beacuse the git:// protocol is unable to go through my institute's proxy.
15:58 benabik It doesn't seem to be related to network issues.
15:59 benabik It's complaining that /home/siddhant/rakudo/nqp/install/ doesn't exist.
16:00 benabik But parrot seems to have installed itself into /home/siddhant/rakudo/install/, so I don't know why NQP is trying a different directory.  I'm guessing a --prefix when missing somewhere?
16:01 sisar I'm sorry, I don't understand. How would I fix that ?
16:03 benabik sisar: I think it's a bug in the Configure.pl script.  NQP is trying to install itself somewhere different than parrot.  Hopefully someone who knows the scripts a bit better can try to fix it.  (I don't have time right now.)
16:03 sisar benabik: Ah. Ok. Thank you :)
16:12 moritz or maybe interference with a previously installed nqp or parrot
16:17 sisar moritz: where do I look for that ? There's nothing in /bin
16:22 moritz sisar: do a   find ~ -name parrot -type f   for example
16:22 moritz sisar: also,   which parrot
16:26 * TimToady supposes we'll have to define a FatNum to pick the largest supported floater, since num80 and num128 are arguably overspecific to be portable
16:29 sisar moritz: find ~ -name parrot -type f has no output, and output of which parrot is "/home/siddhant/rakudo/install/bin/parrot"
16:30 [Coke] sisar: please try:
16:30 [Coke] perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-nqp
16:30 sqirrel joined #perl6
16:30 * sisar gives it a try
16:31 [Coke] (you might also need to rm -rf nqp install parrot if you have a botched install in progress)
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16:53 [Coke] diakopter: can you think of anything happening on host06 that would cause the rakudo.jvm run (using t/spec/test_summary.pl) to abort every test after N tests are run?
16:53 [Coke] the evalserver is still running, but everything aborts. no diagnostic output anywhere.
16:53 diakopter no..
16:54 [Coke] hokay.
16:54 diakopter :(
16:54 [Coke] been going on for about a week. hopefully will be able to dig into it this weekend.
16:55 diakopter [Coke]: maybe try on host07?
16:55 [Coke] eh. I can try on my laptop, too.
16:56 [Coke] ->
16:59 FROGGS joined #perl6
16:59 FROGGS o/
17:01 FROGGS moritz: would be nice if someone could test it before uploading it...
17:21 ajr joined #perl6
17:25 jnthn FROGGS: It just needs installing?
17:25 jnthn FROGGS: I can download and run the MSI here if you like...
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17:30 jnthn FROGGS: Hm, it comaplains "Could not load oplib `nqp_ops'" here
17:31 dalek perl6-Acme-Addslashes: b1e401e | (Konrad Borowski)++ | lib/Acme/Addslashes.pm:
17:31 dalek perl6-Acme-Addslashes: Use `s///` notation instead of `subst`
17:31 dalek perl6-Acme-Addslashes: review: https://github.com/GlitchMr/perl6-​Acme-Addslashes/commit/b1e401e8c3
17:31 jnthn FROGGS: And moving my existing installed one out the way didn't help...
17:32 FROGGS jnthn: :/
17:33 FROGGS jnthn: I dunno, I did nothing special
17:35 jnthn FROGGS: I see the issue, I think
17:35 jnthn libdir => 'C:/rakudo-star-2013.09/install/lib'
17:35 jnthn If you run parrot_config.exe that is in there
17:35 jnthn But it installs it to c:\rakudo\bin\lib
17:35 jnthn oops
17:36 jnthn c:\rakudo\lib
17:36 FROGGS ohh
17:36 FROGGS hmmm
17:36 jnthn I think you may have to build it in the "right palce"?
17:36 jnthn *palace
17:36 jnthn *place
17:36 jnthn grr, dinner, bbi20 :)
17:36 FROGGS yeah, looks like
17:36 FROGGS k, time for RC2 :o)
17:36 popl http://smolder.parrot.org/app/​projects/report_details/43699 # \o/
17:37 FROGGS ohh, we have smolder reports again
17:37 popl I just submitted that one.
17:37 FROGGS popl: awesome!
17:38 popl It took a long time to test.
17:38 FROGGS popl++
17:38 popl I was more than halfway finished with the testing yesterday but then the adapter plug fell out of my laptop and my machine lost power so I had to start over.
17:39 FROGGS ohh, hehe
17:45 popl some of the tests that failed have TODOs so I guess failure is not unexpected there.
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18:10 timotimo is that the same thing as the results page that is hosted on some ip-only web address?
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18:12 TimToady r/j seems to be testing out fine on my supercomputer at home; the ulimits are the same as host06, same arch, only difference is host06 is running 3.5.0-17-generic, while mine is running 3.8.0-19-generic
18:13 TimToady [Coke]: ^^
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18:25 dalek rakudo-js: bed6635 | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/.gitignore:
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: Add .gitignore for the generated unicode char name to codepoint database.
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/bed663552e
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: aa0b73a | (Pawel Murias)++ | run (7 files):
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: Refactor ops that depend on node modules to seperate files.
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/aa0b73a15d
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: 6d60cca | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (46 files):
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: Refactor the runtime in nqp-runtime-core (the platform indepdent part) and nqp-runtime-node (the node.js specific part).
18:25 dalek rakudo-js:
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: The nqp-runtime loads the right runtime (currently always nqp-runtime-core).
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: Fails some bugs due to a newly surfaced bug.
18:25 dalek rakudo-js: review: https://github.com/pmurias/​rakudo-js/commit/6d60ccab83
18:26 jnthn .oO( Isn't faling bugs good? :) )
18:26 diakopter lolz
18:26 pmurias heh
18:26 pmurias * fails some tests
18:26 GlitchMr perl6: say sort <file1 file2 file10 file20>
18:26 camelia rakudo 384a0f, niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«file1 file10 file2 file20␤»
18:27 GlitchMr It makes sense, but well, if you want sort by ASCII.
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18:41 FROGGS C:\MoarVM>perl6 -e "say 42"
18:41 FROGGS PARROT VM: Could not load bytecode
18:41 FROGGS Could not load oplib `nqp_ops'
18:41 FROGGS jnthn: you do you check which path it is looking for?
18:42 jnthn FROGGS: parse fail
18:42 jnthn ...oh, "how do you..."?
18:43 jnthn Run parrot_config --dump
18:43 FROGGS k
18:43 jnthn Installed in the bin folder
18:43 diakopter bring newspapers
18:44 FROGGS hmmm, C:/rakudo/... everywhere
18:47 jnthn FROGGS: Does running it from within the install dir work?
18:47 nwc10 FROGGS++ # SCHMETTERLING KAMPFPANZERWAGEN (even if it was a bit cheeky)
18:48 FROGGS there is no install dir, but it doesnt work from within C:\rakudo\bin
18:48 nwc10 unicode-- # no butterfly icon (yet)
18:49 FROGGS *g*
18:49 TimToady I guess they figure the CJK character is good enough
18:49 FROGGS jnthn: nqp_ops.dll is in C:\rakudo\lib\parrot\5.5.0\dynext though
18:49 TimToady well, at least they've got a bactrian camel
18:50 nwc10 I don't think that Ronja (sp?) cares for camels
18:50 FROGGS jnthn: okay, I think I move these to the bin folder now
18:50 TimToady so that gives 'em, what, another ten fifteen years or so to come up with a butterfly
18:51 FROGGS damn
18:51 FROGGS C:\rakudo>perl6 -e "say 42"
18:51 FROGGS "load_bytecode" couldn't find file 'ModuleLoader.pbc'
18:53 TimToady some of the cuneiforms look kinda like bugs
18:53 TimToady 𒋧
18:54 nwc10 TimToady: on some platforms C's long double is only 64 bytes (even if the CPU can do (or emulate) something bigger)
18:54 nwc10 at least some ARM ABIs, and PPC OS X
18:54 lue nwc10: surely you mean 64 bits?
18:54 nwc10 not that PPC OS X will really be around when Christmas arrives
18:54 nwc10 lue: yes, I do
18:54 nwc10 naughty fingers
18:54 TimToady though mostly they look like fish
18:57 iSlug joined #perl6
18:58 odoacre joined #perl6
19:01 jnthn FROGGS: Oddness
19:01 jnthn What's the parrot_config --dump look like for you now?
19:02 FROGGS jnthn: what I said, all paths start with C:\rakudo\
19:02 jnthn OK, then it..."should work" now :)
19:03 FROGGS yeah, but it does not
19:03 jnthn :S
19:03 FROGGS it is like if the parrot lib dir is wrong
19:03 FROGGS let me check that
19:06 TimToady oh, hey, today is Google's birthday :)
19:06 FROGGS hmmm
19:06 FROGGS jnthn: prefix => 'C:/rakudo/install', but there is not install dir
19:06 PerlJam when's Perl 6's birthday?  Is it still in gestation, or does the cup throwing incident count as "birth" ?
19:08 TimToady hah, the mouseover
19:09 FROGGS jnthn: there is an install dir when I create the msi, but after installing it it has no install dir
19:09 FROGGS clearly I am doing something wrong
19:09 jnthn FROGGS: yeah, what --prefix are you passing when building?
19:09 jnthn Just C:\rakudo ?
19:09 FROGGS none
19:09 FROGGS just perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
19:09 jnthn Oh, you checked out into c:\rakudo and then build there?
19:09 jnthn Yeah...that won't work :)
19:10 FROGGS meh
19:10 FROGGS I'd like to ha a guide
19:10 FROGGS have*
19:10 jnthn Get a checkout somewhere, and then
19:10 jnthn perl Configure.pl --prefix=C:\rakudo --gen-parrot # or similar
19:11 jnthn And then it will use C:\rakudo as the install directory, not create a c:\rakudo\install
19:11 FROGGS hmmm
19:11 jnthn And yes, document what this ;-)
19:11 iSlug What are you coding actually?
19:11 iSlug I've no idea this night :/
19:11 FROGGS and the `nmake msi` target will find it and bundle it correctly?
19:11 jnthn FROGGS: Believe so
19:12 * lizmat back from cycling but too tired to do any reliable programming tonight
19:12 jnthn looks like from makefile
19:12 lizmat going to do some r&r and then sleep&
19:13 jnthn .oO( rum and rakudo )
19:22 * masak .oO( ribosomes and resistors )
19:22 thundergnat joined #perl6
19:22 grondilu joined #perl6
19:25 thundergnat Good morning (UGT) #perl6
19:26 telex joined #perl6
19:26 thundergnat I updated my rakudo install and ran into a bunch of problems with NQP and Rakudo installing in wrong directories.
19:27 FROGGS thundergnat: on what os are you on?
19:27 stevan_ joined #perl6
19:28 thundergnat FROGGS: Linux, ubuntu 12,04
19:28 thundergnat Seems that if you have a DESTDIR set in your environment and DON"T specify a destination directory, it installs in odd ways.
19:29 thundergnat Or, at least, that's what it seems like to me.
19:30 FROGGS hmmm, so you have destdir set to an existing path, but dont specify --prefix?
19:30 thundergnat Yes. At least that's what I did first.
19:30 FROGGS k
19:32 thundergnat DESTDIR is set for panda, but the Configure script grabs it too for SOME of the parrot / nqp /  rakudo build... but not all of it.
19:37 notjack quit
19:38 jnthn .u 2205
19:38 yoleaux U+2205 EMPTY SET [Sm] (∅)
19:41 thundergnat To be more specific, with a env DESTDIR set , --gen-parrot and no --prefix, parrot builds and installs in {cwd}/install/; then nqp builds and installs in {DESTDIR}/install/; then the build process fails because it can't find NQP. (On my machine)
19:42 thundergnat Like I said, I was able to work around it.. but it was certainly LTA.
19:47 masak std: ∅ ** ∅
19:47 camelia std 7c17586: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m�Bogus statement at /tmp/QriLe68jrf line 1:�------> [32m<BOL>[33m�[31m∅ ** ∅[0m�Parse failed�FAILED 00:00 42m�»
19:47 masak bah. not even STD knows about ∅ :)
19:49 masak std: set(<b>) ⊂ set(<a b c>)
19:49 camelia std 7c17586: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/uQKhk5oMgH line 1:â�¤------> [32mset(<b>) [33mâ��[31m⊂ set(<a b c>)[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤       feed_separatorâ�¤ infix or meta-infixâ�¤    infixed functionâ�¤       statement modifier loopâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 43mâ�¤â€¦Â»
19:50 masak things are not in sync here.
19:50 flussence std: set(<b>) (<) set(<a b c>)
19:50 camelia std 7c17586: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0mâ�¤Confused at /tmp/z2tQKTHyEf line 1:â�¤------> [32mset(<b>) [33mâ��[31m(<) set(<a b c>)[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤     feed_separatorâ�¤ infix or meta-infixâ�¤    infixed functionâ�¤       statement modifier loopâ�¤Parse failedâ�¤FAILED 00:00 44mâ�¤â€¦Â»
19:50 flussence ENOSETOPS
19:52 TimToady weird, it's in CORE.setting
19:53 TimToady ah well, STD was always a massive kludge, and has probably seen most of its usefulness already
19:54 masak STD++
19:54 masak best kludge ever.
19:55 masak I still remember the feeling back when Rakudo and Pugs were so underpowered, grammar-wise, that what STD did seemed like pure magic.
19:55 masak we've caught up since then. gradually.
19:56 TimToady well, rakudo still hasn't quite caught up in Q sublanguages, but yeah, it's a lot closer than it was
19:56 GlitchMr Isn't STD needed to modify Perl 6 grammar?
19:57 TimToady we're talking about the prototype standard grammar that runs by a very ad hoc translation to Perl 5
19:57 TimToady though not as ad hoc as it used to be
19:57 pmichaud It's Google's birthday also?
19:57 TimToady but P5 really doesn't have the chops to do STD correctly
19:58 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
19:58 TimToady also STD is written largely in terms of hashes-as-objects, and we'll be wanting to move away from that mindset
19:58 * pmichaud knocks 126 candies out of the Google pinata.
19:58 TimToady pmichaud: apparently the birthday of their first search page, anyway
19:59 * lue wonders if std will run on rakudo or if that's still a ways away.
19:59 GlitchMr I guess it won't.
19:59 GlitchMr Even Niecza needs modified version of STD.
19:59 * TimToady can't get to the piñata because google is overlaying it with more personalized greetings :)
19:59 pmichaud :)
20:00 GlitchMr ===SORRY!===
20:00 GlitchMr Could not find DEBUG in any of: /usr/lib/parrot/5.6.0/languages/perl6/site/lib, /usr/lib/parrot/5.6.0/languages/perl6/vendor/lib, /usr/lib/parrot/5.6.0/languages/perl6/lib, /home/glitchmr/.perl6/2013.08/lib
20:00 GlitchMr it won't.
20:00 * TimToady is scared to ask google's new search engine whether it knows my SSN
20:01 * pmichaud is not scared.
20:01 GlitchMr STD.pm depends on Perl 5 code.
20:01 GlitchMr I assume .pmc is Perl 5 code.
20:01 lue Really? I could swear it was written in P6
20:01 FROGGS hi pmichaud
20:01 TimToady .pm6 is written in Perl 6
20:01 popl scared of a hummingbird? ;P
20:02 TimToady here in Mountain View, Google is the 800-lb hummingbird...
20:02 GlitchMr lue, yes, but it uses modules that are written in Perl 5.
20:02 TimToady the .pmc is translated from the .pm6
20:02 popl that is kind of scary
20:03 TimToady by viv, which is a STD-based parser :)
20:03 pmichaud Google doesn't give me a scary answer for "what is my ssn?"
20:03 TimToady just because it's bootstrapped that way doesn't mean it isn't a kludge
20:03 TimToady it does things like substitute local variables for dynamic variables
20:03 pmichaud It's a slightly more scary answer for "What is Larry Wall's social security number?"
20:04 TimToady what does it say?
20:04 pmichaud and after typing "What is Larry Wall", Google autocompletes with " doing now?"  :-P
20:04 TimToady typing
20:04 TimToady strongly
20:04 pmichaud TimToady: it pulls up some obituary records.  :-/
20:04 TimToady oops, my secret is out
20:04 lue O.o
20:04 popl TimToady is undead.
20:05 pmichaud TimToady: well, not surprising I guess, since TheDamian claims you're immortal.
20:05 * TimToady was hoping the new gray hairs would fool everone
20:06 jnthn TimToady: Where is Q in Rakudo not quite caught up, ooc?
20:06 * jnthn did a bunch of aligning with STD there a while back... :)
20:06 jnthn o/ pmichaud
20:06 TimToady oh, does it work by mixins now?
20:07 pmichaud jnthn: somewhere in the Continuum, I suspect.
20:07 jnthn TimToady: yes, as of Nov last year, when I also was putting in heredocs, etc. :)
20:07 pmichaud (sorry, somewhat obscure)
20:07 jnthn pmichaud: Too obscure for me ;)
20:07 pmichaud https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q​=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=1&amp;cad=rj​a&amp;ved=0CCwQFjAA&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wik​ipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FQ_Continuum&amp;ei=VuVFUq-C​OMmL2AXHxICYCw&amp;usg=AFQjCNE76a8Tm1zXVx8niS84​xJnLNpLqCw&amp;sig2=lcZfJSWo7hETbmCg7eowFQ
20:07 pmichaud arrgh!
20:07 pmichaud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Continuum
20:07 pmichaud better
20:08 benabik Arg, yeah, the google links.  :-(
20:08 GlitchMr Google links will kill us all.
20:08 FROGGS jnthn: this should work: http://froggs.de/perl6/rakudo-star-2013.09-RC2.msi
20:09 GlitchMr And after they will kill, they will use die to throw an exception.
20:10 FROGGS what? one has to explain what the Q Continuum is??
20:10 jnthn pmichaud: Ah. :)
20:10 FROGGS well, at least tadzik++ knows
20:10 jnthn FROGGS: trying
20:10 FROGGS jnthn: thank you
20:10 jnthn aww, my frist crack at termdef explodes...
20:10 jnthn ...maybe 'cus I typed something really great...
20:11 FROGGS jnthn: I even made .bat files for perl6-debug, p6doc and panda
20:11 jnthn perl6-debug is already a .exe, no? :)
20:11 FROGGS hmmm, yeah
20:11 FROGGS then not for perl6-debug :P
20:11 FROGGS 'explodes' is a term that is not known in the real world in that context btw
20:12 FROGGS my colleagues are always shocked when I use it
20:12 FROGGS or at least amused
20:12 tadzik tadzik knows!
20:12 tadzik knows what
20:12 FROGGS hehe, my man!
20:13 tadzik ach, Q :)
20:13 FROGGS yeah, Q-who, deja-Q, and all these things
20:14 REPLeffect joined #perl6
20:14 tadzik I liked the one about Picard re-living his live _very_ much
20:14 tadzik possibly the second best TNG imho, after The Measure of a Man
20:14 FROGGS nah, the inner light is the best one
20:15 FROGGS but I think you mean the one where he gets a heart-surgery?
20:22 lue .oO(I imagine it also frightens normal people when you talk about killing programs.)
20:22 tadzik yes, that one
20:22 tadzik inner light, hmm
20:22 tadzik oh, that's very good to
20:22 tadzik too
20:23 tadzik nothing beats The Measure of a Man imho
20:23 tadzik I cried watching that one
20:23 tadzik a little bit, but still :)
20:24 arnsholt Speaking of weird usages, I used hysterical raisins at work one time. Only one colleague caught it =)
20:26 thundergnat Sigh. Is there a reason why .subst on an undefined value is now a fatal error? It didn't used to be.
20:26 thundergnat r: my @a = <a1 b2>, Any, <d4 e5>; .subst(/\d/,'',:g).say for @a;
20:27 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«a␤b␤No such method 'subst' for invocant of type 'Any'␤  in block  at /tmp/wENJTYbBID:1␤␤»
20:27 FROGGS tadzik: really? hmmm, seems like what this episode is to you, is the inner light to me
20:27 masak arnsholt: "hysteriska russin"? :)
20:28 silug_ joined #perl6
20:29 FROGGS joined #perl6
20:29 GlitchMr Perl 6 debug is annoying to use with white terminal background.
20:29 GlitchMr Seriously, yellow?
20:29 jnthn You were menat to use it with a black one :P
20:30 jnthn Seriously, patches welcome to support custom color schems and config. :) Or wait for me to eventually get to it. :)
20:30 FROGGS r: my @a = <a1 b2>, Any, <d4 e5>; .Str.subst(/\d/,'',:g).say for @a # not fatal
20:30 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«a␤b␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context  in block  at /tmp/Q3zehi4oL5:1␤␤␤d␤e␤»
20:30 FROGGS jnthn: and we need to disable colors when these are not supported
20:31 TimToady there are people who program with a white background?!?
20:31 jnthn FROGGS: When's that happen, ooc? :)
20:31 FROGGS dunno how to check for it though
20:31 FROGGS jnthn: standard cmd.exe prints the escape codes, which makes the debugger useless
20:32 FROGGS TimToady: there is always more that one way to ... :o)
20:32 arnsholt masak: Nah, in English. Some of my colleagues don't speak Norwegian
20:32 jnthn FROGGS: Oh...we need a Term::WindowsColor that knows how to do what cmd.exe wnats :)
20:33 arnsholt Also, the pun doesn't really work outside of English =)
20:33 jnthn FROGGS: And then a Term::AnyColor that frontends the two :)
20:33 FROGGS O.o
20:33 silug_ joined #perl6
20:33 FROGGS ++jnthn :P
20:35 masak arnsholt: in Esperanto it becomes "por histeraj koaloj" -- the word for "reason" being "kialo".
20:35 tadzik and HTML colours
20:35 masak hm, pro*
20:37 FROGGS esperanto?? are you serious?
20:38 lue masak's very fluent, from what I've seen (and reminded me I should get back to it sometime).
20:40 * grondilu paroletas esperanton
20:40 grondilu (longe vivu la verda stelo de esperanto :) )
20:41 xinming joined #perl6
20:44 ajr joined #perl6
20:45 masak FROGGS: I'm serious, to the extent I'm ever serious.
20:45 masak FROGGS: I learned it back in 2000-ish, and it's one of my three fluent languages.
20:46 lue .oO(What are the other two, you english-speaking Swede?)
20:47 masak :)
20:47 * masak .oO( 我不知道...荷兰语? ) :P
20:48 masak hm, that one should probably end in a 吗...
20:48 REPLeffect joined #perl6
20:49 jnthn .oO( There's no question about it... )
20:50 masak jnthn: unless your mom's horse does weed. :P
20:55 Chat0979 joined #perl6
20:55 Chat0979 hi
20:55 jnthn bye
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: b1d6759 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: Start getting defterm handling in place.
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: This enables things like:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom:     constant term:<inator> = "I'll be back";
20:55 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b1d6759b8a
20:55 popl Does that happen often?
20:55 masak popl: jnthn commits? yes. :)
20:56 jnthn My mom's horse doing weed? All the time, man...
20:56 popl I meant drive-by greetings
20:56 jnthn oh :)
20:56 lue what exactly *is* defterm, anyway? is it being able to define these:<things> ?
20:56 jnthn yeah
20:56 popl whenever someone ends a sentence with "doing weed" or "on weed" it makes me think of Jon Stewart's character from the film Half-Baked.
20:57 lue (as something other than subs and similar that is)
20:58 jnthn TimToady: Should things like this work:
20:58 jnthn sub foo(\infix:<whatevs>) { say 1 whatevs 2 }; foo(*+*)
20:58 jnthn ?
20:58 REPLeffect joined #perl6
20:58 jnthn If so, does it magic up an & on the start of the name?
20:59 jnthn Or should we for now conservatively constrain it to really only let you do \term:<x>?
21:05 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
21:10 jnthn r: bar(); sub foo() { my $x = 42; our sub bar() { say $x; } }; foo(); bar();
21:10 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/57oiivIJUiâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    bar used at line 1. Did you mean '&bag'?â�¤â�¤Â»
21:11 jnthn r: GLOBAL::bar(); sub foo() { my $x = 42; our sub bar() { say $x; } }; foo(); GLOBAL::bar();
21:11 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol 'bar'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:11803␤  in any  at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2671␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2659␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:946␤  in block  at /tmp/v1bYovewov:1␤␤…»
21:11 jnthn r: sub foo() { my $x = 42; our sub bar() { say $x; } }; foo(); GLOBAL::bar();
21:11 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol 'bar'␤  in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:11803␤  in any  at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2671␤  in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2659␤  in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:946␤  in block  at /tmp/fEzWIxGlya:1␤␤…»
21:11 jnthn r: sub foo() { my $x = 42; our sub bar() { say $x; } }; foo(); GLOBAL::<&bar>();
21:11 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«42␤»
21:12 REPLeffect joined #perl6
21:12 masak r: sub foo() { my $x = 42; our sub bar() { say $x; } }; GLOBAL::<&bar>()
21:12 camelia rakudo 384a0f: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
21:16 TgMts joined #perl6
21:19 * masak ponders the slogan "scopes are objects, instantiated on entry"
21:39 thundergnat left #perl6
21:39 Mouq joined #perl6
21:44 masak actually, I guess that slogan explains pretty well why scopes can be used for encapsulation (like in JavaScript).
21:45 Mouq .tell moritz I've been around + check the IR Clogs, I'm just busy with school and cross country
21:45 yoleaux Mouq: I'll pass your message to moritz.
21:51 moritz joined #perl6
21:53 _ilbot joined #perl6
21:53 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
22:09 _ilbot joined #perl6
22:09 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | http://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
22:21 xinming joined #perl6
22:23 sftp joined #perl6
22:44 mls joined #perl6
22:46 benabik joined #perl6
22:49 TimToady I'd say we can conservatively ignore \infix for now, since we'd probably get the wrong precedence on it anyway...
22:49 TimToady jnthn: ^^
22:51 TimToady in any case, we can't really change the language based on a run-time binding; that's more the province of a macro, and we haven't defined mixed-arg macros yet
22:54 jnthn r: sub foo(\term:<lol>) { say lol }; foo(42)
22:54 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such method 'orig' for invocant of type 'NQPMu'␤»
22:54 jnthn hmmm
22:55 jnthn r: constant \term:<lol> = 42; say lol
22:55 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«42␤»
22:55 jnthn r: constant term:<lol> = 42; say lol
22:55 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«42␤»
22:55 jnthn r: constant lol = 42; say lol
22:55 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«42␤»
22:55 jnthn Well, that lot works now at least...
22:55 jnthn Will have to look at the other one
22:56 jnthn r: constant \term:["lol"] = 42; say lol
22:56 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such method 'ast' for invocant of type 'NQPMu'␤»
22:56 jnthn grrr
22:57 TimToady r: constant \term:<lol> = 42; say lol + lol
22:57 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«84␤»
22:59 Mouq I don't think thing:[anything()] is implemented yet in rakudo
23:01 jnthn r: sub infix:["lol"]($a, $b) { "$a lol $b" }; 'omg' lol 'toaster'
23:01 camelia rakudo b1d675: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤No such method 'ast' for invocant of type 'NQPMu'␤»
23:01 jnthn I thought that one was...
23:02 * jnthn wishes we didn't have a gazzilion forms for these things... :)
23:07 TimToady n: sub infix:["lol"]($a, $b) { "$a lol $b" }; 'omg' lol 'toaster'
23:07 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: ( no output )
23:07 TimToady n: sub infix:["lol"]($a, $b) { "$a lol $b" }; say 'omg' lol 'toaster'
23:08 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«omg lol toaster␤»
23:08 jnthn n: sub getlol() { "lol" }; sub infix:[getlol]($a, $b) { "$a lol $b" }; 'omg' lol 'toaster' # curious
23:08 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: ( no output )
23:08 jnthn n: sub getlol() { "lol" }; sub infix:[getlol]($a, $b) { "$a lol $b" }; say 'omg' lol 'toaster' # curious
23:08 camelia niecza v24-95-ga6d4c5f: OUTPUT«omg lol toaster␤»
23:08 TimToady a gazillion forms is what we invented syntax for to let us treat them as a few semantic constructs :)
23:09 jnthn .oO( just BEGIN it... )
23:10 TimToady yeah, those have to resolve at compile time
23:10 TimToady one of those little semantic constructs I mentioned :P
23:12 PacoAir joined #perl6
23:14 TimToady but a lot of things are obvious to sorear++ that are not obvious to the rest of us :)
23:18 * Mouq sent in a CLA but hasn't heard anything about it… he just makes a pull request
23:20 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
23:34 Mouq …On the topic of my PR, STD.pm6/grammar Regex both has a token that disallows unspace, and a backslash:<unspace> that matches it.
23:46 TimToady the latter is likely a fossil
23:47 jnthn 'night, #perl6
23:47 TimToady sleep pretty
23:47 colomon \o
23:53 [Coke] TimToady: r/j - are you using "make spectest" or t/spec/test_summary ?
23:54 TimToady spectest
23:54 ilogger2 joined #perl6

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