Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-12-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 raiph joined #perl6
00:02 lizmat perlpilot might know
00:02 lizmat hope he'll be able to fix...
00:02 lizmat catching some sleep now
00:02 jnthn Same
00:02 jnthn 'night
00:02 lizmat so gnight, #perl6!
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00:37 [Coke] ugh. niecza's bootstrap requires both versions of Order enum to work.
00:37 [Coke] ... but this hack might work.
00:38 colomon errr…. huh?
00:38 colomon what are you trying to do?
00:40 [Coke] track the spec change on Order::
00:40 [Coke] I was just fudging a ton of tests, but realized I might be able to fix the root.
00:40 TimToady you can have dups in a definition
00:40 TimToady (on the number mappings)
00:41 TimToady or you can maybe declare constants
00:41 colomon [Coke]: it may mean you need to fix the bootstrap.
00:41 TimToady constant Increase of Order = Order::Less; or so
00:41 colomon or rather, the bootstrap may need to be fixed.  I've done it once.
00:46 [Coke] colomon: well, I'll see if I can get it working, then you can bootstrap, and then we can pull out the deprecated versions.
00:46 [Coke] I'll leave that to you, though.
00:46 colomon okay
00:47 colomon might not be able to get it done tonight, I've got to run to a Christmas music rehearsal as soon as my wife gets off work.
00:50 colomon I just moved the Advent calendar TOC to where it belongs.
00:52 lue r: say 3 cmp 5;
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00:53 camelia rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
00:53 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«Less␤»
00:53 [Coke] eh. if the non-bootstrapped version works, there's no rush to update the bootstrap at all.
00:53 lue p: say +(3 cmp 5;)
00:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«-1␤»
00:56 [Coke] colomon: doesn't matter, my simple fix broke more than it fixed.
00:58 colomon want me to take a look at it from scratch?
00:59 [Coke] it'd unbust a lot of niecza failurs if you get it working.
00:59 [Coke] -my enum Order (:Increase(-1), :Same(0), :Decrease(1));
00:59 [Coke] +my enum Order (:Less(-1), :Same(0), :More(1), :Increase(-1), :Decrease(1));
00:59 [Coke] that fails. ;)
01:01 colomon are Increase and Decrease still in the standard, or was that just your attempt at backward compat?
01:02 TimToady that's just backcompat
01:04 TimToady n: my enum Order (:Less(-1), :Same(0), :More(1), :Increase(-1), :Decrease(1)); say Order(-1)
01:04 camelia niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«Less␤»
01:04 TimToady how does it fail?
01:04 TimToady n: my enum Order (:Less(-1), :Same(0), :More(1), :Increase(-1), :Decrease(1)); say 3 cmp 4
01:04 camelia niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«Increase␤»
01:04 TimToady ah, I see
01:09 [Coke] n: my enum Order (:Increase(-1), :Same(0), :Decrease(1), :Less(-1), :More(1)); say 3 cmp 4
01:09 camelia niecza v24-98-g473bd20: OUTPUT«Increase␤»
01:09 colomon seemed to work for me on the first try?  I didn't do anything fancy.
01:10 colomon what spectests should I look to?
01:11 colomon t/spec/S03-operators/cmp.t
01:12 colomon spectesting
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01:23 * colomon hasn't tried bootstrapping, but seems to have everything working.  he is suspicious this is too easy.
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01:36 colomon [Coke]: I show make spectest failing tons of tests.  Like. more than have Order in them.  Is this normal?
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01:41 dalek niecza: 74c1bda | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
01:41 dalek niecza: Bring Order up to current spec.
01:41 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/74c1bdad10
01:41 colomon not sure if that's really right or not, I'm trying a spectest without it on my Linux box.
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02:07 TimToady lots of failures, but none of them seem related to Order
02:08 TimToady well, lots of warnings, anyway
02:08 timotimo jnthn++ fulfilled a quest i had on questhub and i received all the energy points for it :P
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02:12 TimToady looks like it failed about 19 files
02:12 TimToady seems about right
02:25 timotimo :o
02:26 timotimo i'd pay 71 euros for a ride to paris
02:26 timotimo but it'd only take 3 hours
02:27 timotimo meh.
02:53 TimToady masak: you might want to reply to the 2nd comment on Day 2, which seems to think that type objects are the only "class objects" in Perl 6
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03:11 dalek niecza: c4668c6 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
03:11 dalek niecza: Remove keybag and keyset tests.
03:11 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/c4668c6d0d
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03:22 dalek niecza: e07311c | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
03:22 dalek niecza: KeySet => SetHash, KeyBag => BagHash.
03:22 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/e07311cd3a
03:22 dalek niecza: 692b4e4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
03:22 dalek niecza: Turn on S02-types/sethash.t.
03:22 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/692b4e430f
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03:29 lue rn: say ⟅1, 2, 3, 2, 2, 1⟆.WHAT # :P
03:29 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/pw5eX61ia8â�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/pw5eX61ia8:1â�¤------> [32msay [33mâ��[31m⟅1, 2, 3, 2, 2, 1⟆.WHAT # :P[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        prefix or term…»
03:29 camelia ..niecza v24-102-g74c1bda: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
03:29 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/uiqtKOp_meâ�¤Two terms in a rowâ�¤at /tmp/uiqtKOp_me:1â�¤------> [32msay [33mâ��[31m⟅1, 2, 3, 2, 2, 1⟆.WHAT # :P[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        prefix or termâ�¤â€¦Â»
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03:44 TimK1 Does "use ModuleName <foo>" work on the latest Rakudo release? Same question regarding "need ModuleName; ModuleName::foo"? Neither one seems to be cooperating with me at present.
04:03 raydiak TimK1: I haven't tried the former personally, but afaik the latter should work as long as foo is scoped with "our"...eg "our sub foo { ... }"
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04:08 colomon r: say  BagHash.new("a", "b", "b").pickpairs.perl
04:09 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«("a" => 1,).list␤»
04:10 V_S_C b'bye!
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04:37 diakopter EVARTHINGZ A CURSOR
04:38 TimK1 raydiak: Thanks for the response. The sub in question was modified with "is export"… I assumed that implied "our," because it's exported by default; but maybe I should do some more research.
04:44 raiph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-RAltg​H8tw&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=11m1s # "when I was a fundamentalist functional programmer ... you're using mutable state, you should not do that, use Haskell or a real language ... now ... I write code for a living, I kinda like imperative programming -- you can get stuff done!"
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05:26 TimK1 So… The two modules I've been playing with each have subs declared "sub foo is export," which seems to be the standard form. But this means they've exported subs that are limited to lexical scope. Sounds like the considered best practice *ought* to be "our sub foo is export" so that a user can always "need Module; Module::foo," rather than cluttering up his namespace.
05:33 lue TimK1: have you tried "sub foo is export" with "use Module" ?
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05:39 PerlJam TimK1: unless "namespace cluttering" is considered a feature :)
05:43 PerlJam TimK1: also, the user can "use" a module into a namespace of his choosing, thus negating the "clutter" aspect if desired.
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05:46 TimK1 lue: That works fine, but I was looking for a way to do the equivalent of P5: "use Module (); Module::foo."
05:47 TimK1 PerlJam: I should try that. Might be a solution to my dilemma.
05:48 * TimK1 Turning in now. Late here.
06:01 moritz \o
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06:19 raydiak oh cool, my cursor keys work again...remind me not to get too adventurous with .tmux.conf :P
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06:47 moritz raydiak: don't get adventurous with .tmux.conf :-)
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06:49 raydiak moritz: now you tell me...next time remind me a couple hours ago :)
06:53 raiph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS1lpKBMkgg # for anyone interested in scala: make sure you know about this talk
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07:53 raydiak how can I find out what the underlying representation is of a particular class or object?
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08:18 moritz raydiak: I don't think that's introspectable yet
08:21 nwc10 jnthn: current nqp-indy-whatsit breaks Rakudo setting compuilation after Stage ast:
08:21 nwc10 java.lang.NullPointerException  in name (gen/jvm/stage2/QASTNode.nqp:375)  in  (src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:856)
08:22 nwc10 oh, naughty terminal.
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08:30 raydiak well...where can I read about the specific separate representations and what they do?  is Array a P6Array?  or does such a thing even exist?  maybe it's a P6Opaque like a lot of other things, but then...where does it store the values?  and why do I sometimes see Opaque capitalized and othertimes not?  is there some big swath of a synopsis I skipped over somewhere?
08:32 moritz raydiak: the spec is pretty light on representations, since most of it is implementation detail
08:32 moritz raydiak: Array's repr is P6Opaque, as far as I can tell
08:34 raydiak moritz: I suppose it's a great thing that I don't really have to care, at all, which is how I'll spin it for the advent post :)
08:34 moritz there aren't many core types that have a repr different from P6Opaque
08:35 moritz mostly the native types, and the 'compact' array types like Blob/Buf/utf8
08:36 moritz if you do a   git grep 'is repr' in rakudo, you'll see what I mean
08:37 raydiak ah, I see...so it has to do with what's going on inside the VM, which most P6 programmers shouldn't have to worry about
08:37 moritz yes
08:37 moritz there's a notable exception though
08:37 moritz nativecall
08:38 raydiak and that is what I would use if I wanted to call out to C libs or somesuch?
08:38 moritz yes
08:38 moritz for example class Point is repr('CStruct') {
08:38 moritz has num64 $.x; has num64 $.y;
08:38 moritz }
08:39 moritz that will correspond to a C struct with two 'double' members
08:39 moritz and you can pass that directly to an 'is native' function that expects such a struct, with no copying of the contents going on
08:39 moritz see https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj (scroll down to 'Structs' in the readme, for example)
08:40 raydiak it all sounds very...fast
08:40 moritz well, that's the goal
08:41 moritz the whole point behind reprs is that sometimes, for a particular use case (optimization, or integration with other programs) you want to store your objects in a different format than usual
08:41 moritz but that shouldn't change the object's API
08:42 moritz and since the spec is mostly about API, there's not much about reprs there
08:42 raydiak ahhh...well that explains part of my initial confusion, then...I was wondering about details which are intentionally tucked away out of sight
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08:44 raydiak love the concept, though...being able to work with native types as if they were (mostly) normal P6 data
08:47 raydiak thanks moritz++, for de-confusing me yet again
08:47 FROGGS do we need the method new in class Orthotope here http://rosettacode.org/wiki/K-d_tree#Perl_6 ?
08:48 moritz well, you can remove it, and change the calls to .new to use named params
08:48 FROGGS k, that is what I thought
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08:52 jnthn nwc10: You need the opts branch of Rakudo also.
08:52 jnthn p: say Array.REPR
08:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«P6opaque␤»
08:53 moritz ok, I was wrong about the introspection part :-)
08:53 moritz jnthn++
08:53 nwc10 aha
08:53 moritz r: say Int.REPR
08:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«P6opaque␤»
08:53 moritz p: say uint32.REPR
08:53 raydiak thanks jnthn++ :)
08:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«P6int␤»
08:53 moritz p: say utf8.REPR
08:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«VMArray␤»
08:54 JimmyZ p: say Mu.REPR
08:54 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«P6opaque␤»
09:03 raydiak p: say $*OUT.REPR
09:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«P6opaque␤»
09:05 raydiak p: say Hash.REPR
09:05 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«P6opaque␤»
09:05 nwc10 jnthn: works on "my" machine.
09:07 raydiak so, when S12 says "Other possibilities are P6hash, P5hash, P5array, PyDict, Cstruct, etc.", those are all strictly theoretical at this point...
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09:08 jnthn Well, CStruct exists :)
09:08 jnthn Note that Hash is a P6opaque that inside of it contains a lower-level VMHash
09:09 jnthn Most of the built-in types are P6opaque as you're meant to be able to mix in to them.
09:09 raydiak but it's opaque!  I'm not supposed to know what's inside of it!  :)
09:09 jnthn Right, and you typically don't :P
09:11 raydiak that is interesting to know, though...something tells me that I may end up poking at internals (much) further in the future
09:11 raydiak what's in an array?  is there a VMArray?
09:11 FROGGS yes, there is
09:12 jnthn Well, it's a bit more involved than that due to laziness.
09:12 jnthn Tehre *is* one for the reified bit, but then there's also an unreified bit too
09:12 raydiak oh, I didn't think of that
09:12 FROGGS hmmm, I thought this will be generated every hour? http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/projects.json
09:13 FROGGS moritz: is it possible that a job isnt running since the last feather reboot?
09:15 * JimmyZ wonders what indy branch is about
09:16 FROGGS invoke dynamic
09:16 FROGGS jnthn: gah!! :P
09:16 JimmyZ JVM
09:16 moritz FROGGS: I thought it's dynamically generated
09:16 moritz FROGGS: ask tadzik :-)
09:17 FROGGS tadzik: PING!! :D
09:17 tadzik :o
09:17 FROGGS tadzik: how is http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/projects.json generated?
09:17 tadzik hourly
09:17 FROGGS aha!
09:17 FROGGS a cronjob?
09:17 tadzik yep
09:17 FROGGS aha!
09:17 tadzik I wonder if it's running :>
09:17 FROGGS don't seem like
09:18 tadzik 0 * * * * perl /home/tjs/modules/updatelist.pl
09:18 FROGGS I miss a module I added like 12 hours ago
09:19 FROGGS umm
09:19 FROGGS I am a prat
09:20 moritz does it appear on modules.perl6.org?
09:20 moritz if not, something might be wrong with the META.info
09:20 FROGGS moritz: I borken the META.info
09:20 FROGGS borked*
09:20 moritz we really need a validator/linter for that
09:20 FROGGS I hope it is valid now...
09:22 DrEeevil mmmh, bugs ...
09:22 FROGGS moritz: no, it is not on modules.perl6.org either, but I guess it will show up
09:22 DrEeevil I presume it's not desired that nqp only installs one backend after building multiple?
09:23 FROGGS no, `make install` should install all configured/built backends
09:23 DrEeevil riiight
09:23 DrEeevil --backends=parrot,jvm only installs nqp-p
09:23 DrEeevil using 2013.11 release tarball
09:26 moritz DrEeevil: uhm. Did it build perl6-j ?
09:26 DrEeevil moritz: yes, it built lots of java stuff
09:26 DrEeevil moritz: just trying to isolate --backend=java to see what gets installed then
09:26 moritz DrEeevil: that's very weird, because it uses the installed nqp-j to build perl6-j
09:27 DrEeevil ah, f'd up path
09:27 DrEeevil doesn't honour DESTDIR
09:27 DrEeevil this will be fun to debug!
09:28 moritz it runs $(PERL) tools/build/install-jvm-runner.pl "$(DESTDIR)" $(PREFIX)
09:28 moritz (nqp's j-install, that is)
09:29 DrEeevil right. I wonder why that diverges from nqp-p
09:29 DrEeevil (and I bet moarvm will be even more packaging fun :) )
09:29 moritz because nqp-p has the paths baked in
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09:52 raydiak okay, have a couple paragraphs started for my advent post, should finish it off tomorrow; then work like a madman to get Pray ready in time for a later post...but for now, bed :)
09:52 raydiak g'night, #perl6 \o
09:52 moritz good night
09:53 DrEeevil Welcome to MoarVM!
09:53 DrEeevil Updating submodules .................................... FAIL
09:53 DrEeevil git error: fatal: Not a git repository (or any of the parent directories): .git
09:53 DrEeevil oh come on
09:53 FROGGS :(
09:53 DrEeevil f'ing github craperony
09:54 DrEeevil their tarballs are broken, known issue for over a year now
09:54 * DrEeevil just cooks new tarballs then
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10:03 moritz any volunteers for the Saturday advent slot?
10:04 * moritz takes a looka tht the usual suspects, and correlates with the number of claimed slots
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10:05 moritz PerlJam!
10:05 frettled Well volunteered!
10:06 dmol joined #perl6
10:07 moritz frettled!
10:07 fhelmberger joined #perl6
10:07 moritz also well volunteered!
10:07 masak TimToady: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/​day-02-the-humble-type-object/#comment-3335
10:07 moritz arnsholt: want to write something for the advent calendar, maybe?
10:08 masak r: class is { method foo { say "can call a class 'is'!" } }; is.new.foo
10:08 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«can call a class 'is'!␤»
10:08 masak \o/
10:08 masak r: class is is Array { method foo { say "can call a class 'is'!" } }; is.new.foo
10:09 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«can call a class 'is'!␤»
10:09 masak wow, frettled and PerlJam are stepping forward? that's awfully nice of them.
10:10 moritz I am stepping them forward :-)
10:11 masak yes. the "volunteer" as a v.tr. :)
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10:33 FROGGS tadzik / moritz: JSON::Pretty is now in projects.json! so it is all right :o)
10:33 moritz \o/
10:33 moritz but... is it pretty? :-)
10:33 tadzik (:
10:33 FROGGS it is :o)
10:33 moritz is it web scale? :-)
10:34 frettled masak: aw, shucks ;)
10:34 frettled Regretfully, there's not enough time for that :(
10:37 hoelzro morning #perl6!
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10:38 FROGGS ho hoelzro
10:39 tadzik ain't nobody got time for that!
10:40 hoelzro [...] is a non-capturing group, right?
10:40 tadzik yes
10:40 hoelzro so if I have [ ... <postfixish> ], does $<postfixish> exist?
10:41 tadzik I think so
10:41 moritz yes
10:42 hoelzro mkay
10:42 tadzik you can do it, it's all up to you mmmkaay
10:42 * hoelzro is trying to understand why postfixish doesn't exist in the AST dump for 'foo.bar'
10:44 masak hoelzro: yes, it exists.
10:45 masak hoelzro: grouping with [] is invisible to capture groups.
10:45 masak frettled: aww. that's leaving a lot of volunteering to PerlJam, you know :P
10:45 hoelzro I see
10:51 frettled masak: yeah, I know, but PerlJam is more than up to the task.  I'm sure he can jam two calendar entries in there!
10:54 masak :)
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10:59 hoelzro that's his jam, after all
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11:16 hoelzro grr
11:16 hoelzro how do I iterate over the key parts of $/ in NQP?
11:16 hoelzro nqp::iterator($/) doesn't cut the mustard
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11:24 FROGGS nqp-p: my $/ := "abc" ~~ / $<word>=\w+ /; my $i := nqp::iterator($/.hash); say(nqp::iterkey_s(nqp::shift($i)))
11:24 camelia nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«word␤»
11:24 FROGGS nqp-p: my $/ := "abc" ~~ / $<word>=\w+ /; my $i := nqp::iterator($/.hash); say(nqp::iterval(nqp::shift($i)))
11:24 camelia nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«abc␤»
11:24 FROGGS nqp-p: my $/ := "abc" ~~ / [$<word>=\w]+ /; my $i := nqp::iterator($/.hash); say(nqp::iterval(nqp::shift($i)))
11:24 camelia nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«3␤»
11:24 hoelzro ah, .hash
11:24 hoelzro thanks FROGGS
11:24 FROGGS np
11:25 FROGGS $/ keeps a .list and a .hash
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12:15 timotimo ohai
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12:22 FROGGS hi timotimo
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12:26 timotimo on indy-args i get NPMCA in get_bool inside QAST :(
12:31 FROGGS like that?
12:31 FROGGS <nwc10> java.lang.NullPointerException  in name (gen/jvm/stage2/QASTNode.nqp:375)  in  (src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:856)
12:32 nwc10 if so, check out the branch opts
12:33 timotimo opts is a rakudo branch. i cannot build nqp in the first place
12:33 nwc10 oh, righto
12:33 nwc10 no, not seeing that
12:33 timotimo weird. i may need to realclean or something
12:34 FROGGS or remove install/
12:36 timotimo then i'd have to rebuild parrot and moarvm, too :|
12:37 timotimo seems like that helped? weird.
12:37 timotimo no, it didn't
12:37 * nwc10 isn't using --gen-whatever
12:38 * moritz tries too
12:39 moritz nqp built here (manualy checking out the branch, configuring with --prefix=../install --backends=jvm)
12:43 timotimo weird!
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12:58 timotimo bisecting this i have to skip lots, because parrot didn't get the callstatic op mapped until very late
12:59 lizmat good *, #perl6!
12:59 timotimo good good, good!
13:00 colomon \o
13:02 lizmat preparing for commute to patch -p1
13:04 colomon patch -p1 is a thing and not just a unix command?
13:05 timotimo it's a perl hackathon in paris
13:05 timotimo starts tomorrow i think
13:05 masak patchathon!
13:06 colomon \o/
13:06 moritz hackapatch
13:06 timotimo patchopatch
13:07 masak the silly. it goes up to 11.
13:08 moritz r: say ~<patchathon hackapatch patchopatch>>>.chars
13:08 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«10 10 11␤»
13:08 timotimo the "don't make throw-away slurpies" commit broke the parrot build for me
13:09 hoelzro ahoy lizmat
13:09 timotimo hoelzro: maybe today perl6 will enter linguist!
13:09 timotimo what do you think? :)
13:10 hoelzro I hope so!
13:10 masak "enter linguist"? that sounds elaborate.
13:11 * timotimo measures times for perl6 stage compile
13:15 timotimo sweet! almost down to 100 seconds!
13:16 timotimo stage optimize is also a whole bunch faster
13:16 FROGGS ??
13:16 FROGGS really?
13:17 timotimo 100 seconds for stage parse*
13:17 timotimo why do i keep writing "stage compile"?
13:17 hoelzro timotimo++ # nice!
13:17 timotimo that's not my work, that's all jnthn
13:17 FROGGS timotimo: which branch?
13:17 timotimo indy-args with HEAD~1 reverted and opts
13:17 FROGGS umm, I'll wait :o)
13:17 masak so, indy-args^, then :)
13:18 timotimo no
13:18 timotimo er ... yes
13:18 masak oh, wait, HEAD~1 reverted. never mind.
13:18 timotimo indy-args^ reverted
13:18 masak right.
13:19 timotimo i'm willing to bet that making that commit work will give another decent speedboost to get my timing below 100s
13:20 timotimo it's at 101s now
13:22 denisboyun joined #perl6
13:22 * masak .oO( performance 101 )
13:24 jnap joined #perl6
13:30 lizmat http://patch.pm/p1
13:30 lizmat commute commencing&
13:32 TimK1 Has anyone built MoarVM on a Mac?
13:32 TimK1 left #perl6
13:33 TimK1 joined #perl6
13:34 tadzik I think diakopter does that
13:34 moritz TimK1: yes, I'm pretty sure, because the README mentions it explictly
13:34 moritz (Or `nmake` on Windows). Currently it is known to build on Windows with MSVC,
13:34 moritz with `gcc` and `clang` on Linux & MacOS X.  We're expanding this with time.
13:35 woolfy left #perl6
13:39 TimK1 Oh yeah… Look at that. I've been having trouble… But before I go any further, I'm going to try again, following again exactly the steps in the README.
13:42 hummeleBop1 joined #perl6
13:55 PerlJam frettled: :-PPP
13:56 timotimo a single !nqp::isnull made nqp build again
13:57 timotimo now let's see how much faster it is.
13:58 FROGGS push push push!
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14:04 masak p: say Date.today.day-of-week
14:04 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«4␤»
14:05 masak p: say Date.today.month
14:05 masak I'm happy we decided not to make those two zero-based.
14:06 FROGGS yeah
14:06 hoelzro what is '$#array' in Perl 6?
14:10 FROGGS p: say 1
14:10 masak hoelzro: @array.end
14:10 moritz p: $#array
14:10 FROGGS it is dead :o(
14:10 masak I think I killed camelia :/
14:10 hoelzro ah, thanks masak
14:11 * FROGGS .oO( You bastards! )
14:12 hoelzro heh
14:13 camelia joined #perl6
14:14 moritz p: $#array
14:15 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/yNoXnF3fBy�Unsupported use of $#variable; in Perl 6 please use @variable.end�at /tmp/yNoXnF3fBy:1�------> [32m$#array[33m�[31m<EOL>[0m�»
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14:18 timotimo i needed some !nqp::isnull($node.node)s, but now it should work
14:18 FROGGS timotimo: there is another get_bool that explodes
14:18 timotimo some more*
14:18 FROGGS this one I think: nqp/src/vm/parrot/QAST/Compiler.nqp:727
14:19 FROGGS compiling right now
14:20 timotimo i just added all of them :P
14:20 timotimo it doesn't make stage parse faster, it seems.
14:21 jnthn timotimo: Oh? That's...surprising.
14:21 jnthn It's less memory pressure, either way...
14:21 PacoAir joined #perl6
14:23 timotimo there seems to be more null pmc accesses in get_bool even after guarding all the $node.node's
14:24 denis_boyun joined #perl6
14:24 timotimo maybe the accessor methods should be tweaked to never return null instead
14:25 timotimo perhaps it's something about nqp::create that differs from self.CREATE?
14:26 rurban1 joined #perl6
14:28 timotimo i don't get it :\
14:29 jnthn self.CREATE just calls nqp::crete(...)
14:29 jnthn I've no idea where the nulls are coming from, given the fact that things work on JVM...
14:31 timotimo oh well
14:32 dalek niecza: 989dffc | (Solomon Foster)++ | / (2 files):
14:32 dalek niecza: Changes needed to make baghash.t work.
14:32 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/989dffc157
14:36 ajr joined #perl6
14:40 timotimo jnthn: anyway, good work on that branch :)
14:41 timotimo it's a delight to see you just churn out worthwhile optimisations while i'm failing to come up with new good ones >_<
14:46 jnthn I'm happy they're helping :)
14:47 jnthn Reducing setting compilation time is important for our overall throughput.
14:47 timotimo i agree
14:47 jnthn And the benefits help suer code too
14:47 jnthn *user
14:47 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
14:48 jnthn Wow...storm is building here.
14:49 * FROGGS .oO( The storm is strong in him, master! )
14:50 jnthn I'll probably be able to get a train home, but there's more trains cancelled than there are leaving..
14:52 hummeleB1 joined #perl6
14:53 Woodi Hi :)
14:53 Woodi Someone wrote: Your base class breaks encapsulation by exposing implementation details to subclasses in the form of protected members.
14:54 jnthn I think it's the subclass that'd be doing the breaking, but the base class is kinda flaunting its model... :)
14:56 Woodi is that some flavour of OO ? when you instantiate child class into object there is no parent class anymore! All attributess are object own, seeing it is using parrent kidney or brain is interesting vision...
14:56 Woodi just do not understans :)
14:57 Woodi after instantiation thinking in parrent/child class is not valid to me...
14:58 Woodi except reflection but things like refactoring are not part of design...
15:00 jnthn Woodi: The runtime operational view is little comfort to the maint programmer :)
15:02 atroxaper Hello #perl6 !
15:02 Woodi yes, that's two different jobs/times :) but where is a breaking encapsulation ?
15:02 Woodi hi atroxaper :)
15:02 atroxaper Woodi hi!
15:05 atroxaper Does anybody know why i can't generate html from specs's pod? 16-io.pod for example. q{Two terms in a row} in line 6
15:05 tadzik oh, they're POD, from Perl 5, not Pod from Perl 6
15:05 atroxaper I ran perl6 /path-to-pod/S16-io.pod --doc=html
15:06 Ulti r: say -Inf..Inf
15:06 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«-Inf..Inf␤»
15:07 Ulti r: my @infinity = -Inf..Inf
15:07 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: ( no output )
15:07 Ulti is that a timeout?
15:07 jnthn Woodi: If I make a field private in a class, I can refactor as I choose. If it's protected, it's part of the API that I need to maintain for subclasses. If the subclasses are out of my control, then I need to maintain that API. If the API is in terms of fields, not methods, I've little flexibility in doing so.
15:07 atroxaper tadzik: Hm... Are all of Perl6 specs written in Perl5 POD?
15:08 jnthn Woodi: I'm not sure I'd claim that accessing protected fields is breaking encapsulation. I guess I'll simply argue that they're not encapsulated at all. :)
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15:09 FROGGS Ulti: no
15:09 FROGGS r: my @infinity = -Inf..Inf; say "no"
15:09 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«no␤»
15:09 jnthn atroxaper: I think except S26
15:09 atroxaper tadzik: I want to improve pod2html generator. And found only one way to get Pod object: qq{eval slurp($pod_file.path) ~ "\n\$=pod";}
15:10 FROGGS r: my @infinity = -Inf..Inf; say @infinity[^10] # bang?
15:10 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«-Inf -9223372036854775808 -9223372036854775807 -9223372036854775806 -9223372036854775805 -9223372036854775804 -9223372036854775803 -9223372036854775802 -9223372036854775801 -9223372036854775800␤»
15:10 FROGGS ohh
15:10 Ulti hmmm why does my 2013.09 R* hang
15:10 jnthn wtf...
15:10 FROGGS Ulti: are you doing that in the repl?
15:10 Ulti heh I like -Infinity +1
15:10 dalek niecza: 425def6 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
15:10 dalek niecza: Copy changes to Bag as well.
15:10 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/425def6617
15:10 Ulti FROGGS: yeah
15:11 FROGGS Ulti: the repl tries evaluate it I think
15:11 FROGGS Ulti: try the same in a -e
15:11 Ulti yeah I guess its always in sink context because it wants to print it
15:11 dalek roast: dafcd34 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S02-types/bag (2 files):
15:11 dalek roast: Niecza refudge.
15:11 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/dafcd34d93
15:12 FROGGS Ulti: yeah
15:12 Woodi encapsulation in the first place is for things not being in class hierarchy, it is essence of OO. but hidding thing from subclasses is another form of hidding and maybe it is necesarry too...
15:13 FROGGS p: my %x = (:a(1), :b(2) :c(3))
15:13 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: ( no output )
15:13 FROGGS p: my %x = (:a(1), :b(2) :c(3)); say %x
15:13 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«("a" => 1, "b" => 2).hash␤»
15:13 FROGGS std: my %x = (:a(1), :b(2) :c(3)); say %x
15:13 camelia std 3b262af: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 128m␤»
15:13 tadzik atroxaper: yeah, I don't think we have a different way
15:13 FROGGS hmmm
15:13 FROGGS is c just an adverb to b there?
15:14 jnap joined #perl6
15:14 atroxaper tadzik: and S26 don't parse too :) Said =begin wihtout =end ...
15:15 tadzik oh, S26 should definitely parse
15:15 tadzik the HTML rendering we have is a proof that we, at least at some point, were able to parse it
15:15 tadzik if we're not anymore, I'd be seriously mad :)
15:16 tadzik due to the time necessary to parse it we don't have it as a test anywhere tohugh
15:16 * FROGGS .oO( My name is hugh )
15:16 tadzik :D
15:16 tadzik We are Hugh
15:16 FROGGS :o)
15:16 jnthn .oO( Are hugh serious? )
15:17 FROGGS jnthn: you have no idea!
15:17 tadzik you can't say Hugh without hug
15:17 btyler joined #perl6
15:17 Woodi that API protecting is probably keeping Liskov in place, subclasses have some restrictions on parrent attibutes..
15:18 atroxaper tadzik, it we're not anymore. Really.
15:18 tadzik I'm mad >:(
15:19 TimK1 left #perl6
15:19 V_S_C joined #perl6
15:19 FROGGS tadzik: seems like you *are* getting active this year :o)
15:19 tadzik KHAAAAN
15:19 moritz you can always BISECT
15:20 tadzik BISEEEECT
15:21 atroxaper BISECT!))
15:21 tadzik and the last rendering of S26 doesn't have a timestamp
15:21 atroxaper Maybe rendering is fine. I can't even eval pod file.
15:23 moritz rendering uses eval :/
15:27 Woodi btw. I learned a little of pre-assembler knowledge and it's kind a shock that x86 cpus have same instructions since '70s... looks 'backward uncompatibility' is just human error...
15:27 geekosaur similar instructions. how they're written has changed a bit though
15:28 geekosaur but yes, you can trace many of the intel opcodes back to the 4004 if you put your mind to it
15:28 Woodi but looks more portable then HLLs :)
15:31 V_S_C x64 succeeded rather than IA64 as it overlapped with x86 to greater extent! Someone commercial minded said the market does not always make the right choice & played along.
15:34 atroxaper tadzik: i think i found!
15:35 atroxaper tadzik: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/b​7db6ebaf1a8a07a1d7eb57e8b8d9b3b9975e76e it's comment with bag
15:35 atroxaper commit
15:36 atroxaper tadzik: need to add q{=end defn} in 605 line
15:37 atroxaper Locally it works.
15:44 ajr joined #perl6
15:47 tadzik ooh!
15:47 tadzik so it's not my code's fault \o/
15:47 tadzik should be =para defn or something
15:48 tadzik atroxaper+_+
15:48 tadzik atroxaper++ even
15:48 atroxaper tadzik: thank you!
15:50 atroxaper tadzik: i think it should be add =end defn in 605 line as in other examples around
15:51 jnthn attempted decommute :) &
15:51 FROGGS jnthn: good lok!
15:52 FROGGS ohh, that was germish
15:52 FROGGS jnthn: good lök! # :o)
15:52 FROGGS err
15:59 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:04 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sokoban#Perl_6 <-- passed up J, now C is 34 away :)
16:04 rurban1 joined #perl6
16:15 V_S_C @TimToady J? 34?
16:16 nwc10 TimToady: I forgot, and I couldn't find it by digging - which  is the page with the leaderboard?
16:20 TimToady http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta​_Code/Rank_languages_by_popularity
16:20 TimToady though you have to run one of the programs to get the current results
16:20 TimToady I think they updated it a couple days ago
16:27 TimToady oh hey, just thought of a big advantage to turning the postcircumfix:<[ ]> method into a function; you can easily make strings be subscriptable in a lexical scope without inflicting those semantics on anyone else
16:33 spider-mario joined #perl6
16:36 TimToady nwc10: btw, the p6 one of those runs considerably faster under niecza, if you're wanting to run it
16:36 ajr joined #perl6
16:38 V_S_C left #perl6
16:41 thou joined #perl6
16:47 * jnthn got home without much trouble
16:47 TimToady it occurs to me that the Sokoban solver would parallelize nicely with a channel instead of a queue
16:53 jnap joined #perl6
16:54 TimToady we actually put the encapsulation boundary *inside* the class, not outside of it
16:54 TimToady when you say $!foo, you're inside, and when you say $.foo, you're outside
16:55 TimToady that might rise to the level of an advent idea
17:01 Ulti TimToady unfortunately Perl6 isn't on this plot http://sogrady-media.redmonk.com/sogrady​/files/2012/09/language-ranking-0912.png
17:02 tipdbmp joined #perl6
17:05 TimToady well, of course not, that's measuring "real" popularity, not the insanity of a few RC contributors :)
17:07 TimToady masak: added a comment to yours, http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/​day-02-the-humble-type-object/#comment-3339
17:08 zakharyas joined #perl6
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17:31 TimToady decommuting for six hours or so &
17:38 bluescreen100 joined #perl6
17:46 beastd joined #perl6
17:51 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
17:53 colomon [Coke]: ping?
17:55 hoelzro ok, nobody fix this: https://rt.perl.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=120704
17:55 hoelzro I'm going to see if I can do it
17:56 diakopter HERE, HAVE SOME STOP ENERGY.
17:57 diakopter <WINK>
17:58 hoelzro if I can't manage after a few days, please feel free to step in ;)
18:02 stevan_ joined #perl6
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18:10 jnthn r: my $a = (say 1; $a) = (say 2; $a)
18:10 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
18:10 jnthn hoelzro: That needs to be 2 1 I guess :)
18:11 jnthn I wonder if we're not handling childorder correctly somewhere...
18:11 jnthn Or something like that...
18:11 diakopter erm
18:11 diakopter that used to work
18:12 telex joined #perl6
18:13 diakopter r: my $a = (BEGIN say 1; $a) = (BEGIN say 2; $a)
18:13 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
18:13 diakopter mwahaha
18:14 FROGGS[mobile] you are crazy :o)
18:14 diakopter hrm
18:15 hoelzro the odd thing is how commenting odd the line in push fixes things.
18:23 sftp joined #perl6
18:44 [Coke] colomon: you rang?
18:44 [Coke] ./scroll end
18:45 [Coke] colomon: is it better than:
18:45 colomon [Coke]: how many test failures are you getting in Niecza these days?  I'm getting a number of them with make spectest, but some (most?) of them appear to be some spurious problem with the make spectest harness rather than actual niecza errors.
18:46 [Coke] https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-dat​a/blob/master/niecza_summary.out#L6065  ?
18:47 colomon argh, that's far more errors than I'm getting, and not the same ones.  :\
18:47 colomon what are you using to run the tests?
18:47 [Coke] that is the run before you fixed order.
18:48 colomon ah, maybe that helped
18:49 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 90c115e | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
18:49 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
18:49 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/90c115e6ed
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: 4e9765a | coke++ | / (3 files):
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
18:49 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/4e9765a1d7
18:50 [Coke] uh, that last commit looks wonky.
18:52 [Coke] colomon: https://gist.github.com/coke/7811061
18:52 [Coke] that's from today's run.
18:52 [Coke] all those were already failing before your fix.
18:52 colomon \o/
18:53 [Coke] can you see if the test file I skipped in t/spectest.data recently passes with your fix? (hard for me to commit from $dayjob)
18:53 [Coke] colomon++
18:54 [Coke] (down to 56 failures in niecza, from 468)
18:54 colomon I also made some tests that had never worked before in niecza work.  ;)
18:58 colomon [Coke]: yes, cmp.t works now.  I'll turn it back on.
18:59 [Coke] colomon++ thanks
18:59 dalek niecza: 17d73e4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
18:59 dalek niecza: Turn S03-operators/cmp.t back on.
18:59 dalek niecza: review: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/17d73e408c
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19:05 dalek roast: c8d9486 | coke++ | S03-metaops/ (2 files):
19:05 dalek roast: Partially Revert "partial niecza fudge"
19:05 dalek roast:
19:05 dalek roast: This partially reverts commit 6312c187880ad4e8da1cde7df665f6f17ad9f501.
19:05 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/c8d9486091
19:05 [Coke] I think that's the last of the ones I fudged the other day.
19:06 [Coke] (run the tests) this script:
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 5c6e780 | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/ops/perl6_ops.c:
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Cheating p6stateinit.
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support:
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Hopefully we can actually get to Hello world! without implementing
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: state vars.
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5c6e780f62
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 087641c | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/ops/perl6_ops.c:
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Implement p6staticouter.
19:06 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/087641c91b
19:06 [Coke] https://github.com/coke/perl6-roa​st-data/blob/master/bin/niecza.sh
19:11 [Coke] colomon^^
19:12 fhelmberger_ joined #perl6
19:12 colomon [Coke]++ # keeping on top of things
19:14 jlaire joined #perl6
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19:15 FROGGS[mobile] jnthn++
19:15 jnthn Those don't solve the nasty closure issue, though...
19:16 FROGGS[mobile] is the closure issue "my" gc bug?
19:16 jnthn No
19:16 FROGGS[mobile] damn
19:17 jnthn Ugh...hope the power holds with this storm...
19:18 FROGGS[mobile] :/
19:18 FROGGS[mobile] no storm here anymore
19:21 jnthn I'm sure I had this problem when doing the JVM port...
19:21 * jnthn looks thorugh the commit history
19:22 ajr joined #perl6
19:32 * jnthn finds 4b6519aba in the NQP repo and thinks that may be it. :)
19:32 jnthn .oO( Clearly, I was smarter back in May... )
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20:25 peekxc joined #perl6
20:26 peekxc Hello All! I have a question related to Perl 6.0 (or Rakudo if you want) vs the current stable release, Perl 5.18; specifically in regards to the basics of opening filehandles. Is this the right channel and if so can anyone help me?
20:26 Juerd Yes.
20:27 diakopter japhb: fix the internet, please. kthxbai
20:27 Juerd I will probably not be able to help but you've come to the right place for Perl 6 questions.
20:27 japhb diakopter, Did I break it again?  Dang.
20:27 diakopter japhb: my gmail says 502. make it stop.
20:28 SevenWolf joined #perl6
20:28 diakopter japhb: [I'm sure you love this sort of harassment.. :S]
20:29 diakopter "Please try again in 30 seconds. That’s all we know. "   That's not a very strong statement of knowledge...
20:29 japhb It's my favorite.  ;-)
20:29 peekxc Alright, so I've done a fair bit of research and I've looked at the documentation, I'm learning Perl now from the Randal Schwartz book "Learning Pearl." They go over many different ways to open and use filehandles, however most of what they do seems to be use the syntax for 6.0, which is the triple term setup (open $file_fh, '<', 'some_location';)
20:29 jnthn Apart from that's not the syntax for 6 at all :)
20:30 jnthn my $file_fh = open('some_location', :r); # how that'd look in 6
20:30 japhb "SORREEE, WE BROAK DA NETZ.  WE IZ WOORKING ON ITZ."
20:30 cooper joined #perl6
20:30 peekxc reallreally?
20:30 peekxc hmmmmm
20:30 diakopter peekxc: which tutorial are you reading for 6.0?
20:30 peekxc "Learning Perl" by Randall Schwartz
20:31 peekxc in Chapter 5 he says, and I quote:
20:31 PerlJam peekxc: That book is for Perl 5
20:31 diakopter peekxc: that's not for Perl 6
20:31 SevenWolf Learning Perl is Perl 5 and you are in a Perl 6 Chat room
20:31 peekxc Ahh, I see
20:31 PerlJam There is no "Learning Perl 6" yet
20:31 peekxc I misread 5.6 for Perl 6
20:32 PerlJam peekxc: and if it's for 5.6, it's still horribly out of date :)
20:32 SevenWolf well basics are still valid
20:32 ingy arvo! o/
20:32 peekxc Am I correct that the latest "stable" release is 5.18.1 though?
20:32 diakopter peekxc: yes, but Perl 6 is on a completely different trajectory from Perl 5
20:33 PerlJam SevenWolf: sure, but a book written for a 13 year old version of Perl is likely to miss a few things :)
20:33 BinGOs v5.18.2 will be out in a week and a bit.
20:33 peekxc As I've come to understand
20:33 SevenWolf hey peekxc if your interest is in Perl 5 channel #perl may be more suited
20:33 kivutar joined #perl6
20:33 SevenWolf I agree PerlJam
20:33 peekxc Thank you Seven, but before I depart, let me ask you all a quick question
20:34 * PerlJam waits for a crazy non sequitur
20:34 diakopter japhb: mail plz. ok, thanks, awesome.
20:34 peekxc If you were developing a program that was going to be used over a very very large database, cross-platform, and stability was key, would you use 5.18 or 6.0 ?
20:34 japhb diakopter, :-D
20:34 SevenWolf two languages depends on your preference
20:34 peekxc I know 6.0 cbumps up the efficiency quite a bit, but my concerns lie in stability
20:34 diakopter peekxc: version 5, absolutely
20:35 peekxc Thanks, dia, and Seven
20:35 japhb (Once in a while the sleeping deities awake, jiggle a fiber coupling, and then fall back to sleep.)
20:35 peekxc I'll be taking my leave then, thanks all for the help
20:35 btyler peekxc: the naming scheme is a little weird, but perl 5 and perl 6 are different languages. for something like that a recent version of perl 5 is a great choice
20:35 diakopter peekxc: 6.0 bumps the efficiency up a few thousand times in the opposite direction
20:36 peekxc What do you mean "in the opposite direction"?
20:36 diakopter it's not up
20:36 peekxc as in it's less efficient?
20:36 btyler perl 6 in its current form is still rather slower than perl 5 in most (all?) cases
20:36 PerlJam diakopter: still depends on what efficiency you're talking about.   :)
20:36 diakopter I'm curious who told you it was more efficient (runtime performance, startup performance)
20:36 SevenWolf I enjoy Perl 5 but as soon as 6 is out there I may switch.. I will switch.. I think I will miss Sigil Variance
20:36 PerlJam Perl 6 is quite a bit more expressive than Perl 5.
20:36 peekxc wikipedia ;)
20:37 peekxc I see
20:37 SevenWolf I've also heard that as of right now Perl6 isn't as fast as Perl 5
20:37 jnthn Perl 6 as a language should be more optimizable in the long run. At the moment the implementations have much optimization to go.
20:37 peekxc Well this is all very useful info to me, as I'm the one needing to make the decision. Thank you.
20:37 japhb peekxc, Right now, Perl 6 compilers are generally slower than Perl 5, sometimes a lot slower.  The *design* of the language is made to ramp up significantly in efficiency, but the *implementations* are still in the "get everything working" phase, instead of the "make it blazingly fast" phase.
20:40 PerlJam SevenWolf: btw, what do you mean by "out there"?  Perl 6 is "out" already.  Has been for a while.  What are your criteria to switch?
20:41 SevenWolf hmm well I actually am more of a Perl 5 guy, Im very interested in Perl 6
20:41 SevenWolf and from what I've read, Perl 6 has third part compilers?
20:41 SevenWolf party*
20:42 SevenWolf Is Rakudo the official implementation?
20:42 FROGGS SevenWolf: not really third party, but there is not a single implementation as there is for Perl 5
20:42 perigrin The party is just larger so in between having punch they throw out compilers.
20:42 SevenWolf lol
20:43 FROGGS SevenWolf: all implementations are official which pass the test suite
20:43 japhb SevenWolf, Rakudo is the most active implementation in terms of development effort.
20:43 FROGGS yes, that makes rakudo the leading implementation
20:43 SevenWolf is implementation of threading complete with any of the p6 compilers?
20:44 japhb Complete, no.  Working nicely?  Well, I like the rakudo-jvm threading.
20:44 FROGGS SevenWolf: the only implementation that support threads so far is rakudo on the jvm
20:44 japhb Concurrency, really.
20:44 FROGGS not complete, since the the implementation (and spec) of threads just has started
20:44 perigrin you keep using these terms like "complete" and "official" ... hang out a while and you'll realize why they're not really applicable.
20:44 japhb (Scheduled tasks in a thread pool)
20:45 FROGGS SevenWolf: think more in terms of "useful" and "appropriate"
20:45 FROGGS :o)
20:45 japhb SevenWolf, see jnthn++'s talks/slide decks on Concurrency in Perl 6.
20:45 FROGGS (... for the given task)
20:45 FROGGS or the advent calender
20:46 SevenWolf I see, I'll check that out japhb
20:46 PerlJam perigrin, FROGGS: the transition from "complete/official" to "useful/appropriate" might make a good advent post  ;)
20:46 japhb (newest is best WRT those talks, by the way; there was a syntax change recently)
20:46 jnthn http://jnthn.net/papers/2013-npw-conc.pdf is the current best bet.
20:46 FROGGS SevenWolf: btw, if you want to dig into Perl 6 a perfect thing to do would be to port a Perl 5 module you are interested in to Perl 6
20:47 FROGGS PerlJam: well volunteered! :P
20:47 SevenWolf I have Rakudo installed on linux, I most likely will.
20:48 PerlJam FROGGS: There are a few slots open still, so I may write one or two, but I haven't felt up to it yet and I'm not sure I will before xmas.
20:48 FROGGS I see
20:49 FROGGS I plan to to start on my first post tomorrow
20:51 japhb SevenWolf, you say "I have Rakudo installed on linux".  From experience, sometimes that means people used the system package manager to install it.  If so, that's almost certainly seriously out of date if you're interested in concurrency and threading.
20:51 japhb Best to build from git.  (The procedure for which has also changed/improved lately.)
20:51 SevenWolf ah yes, that is the case somewhat.. except I have no package manager, I just sudo apt-get install ...
20:52 SevenWolf Im on kali
20:52 PerlJam apt is a package manager last time I checked :)
20:52 SevenWolf well
20:52 SevenWolf what i meant was no graphical
20:52 SevenWolf my mistake
20:52 FROGGS that doesnt matter :o)
20:52 FROGGS it is just that the  (debian guys)
20:52 FROGGS it is just that the  (debian guys)++ dont bundle it every month
20:53 SevenWolf I am aware of out of date repositories, honestly i rely on them far too much lol
20:54 cooper joined #perl6
20:55 FROGGS it is just dramatic what happens here within a month, and if you then see that the packaged one is a year old... well :o)
20:57 japhb Yeah, it's night and day.
20:58 SevenWolf Candidate: 0.1~2012.01-1
20:58 SevenWolf O_o im in trouble
20:58 SevenWolf lol
20:59 FROGGS *g*
20:59 FROGGS you are, indeed :o)
21:00 * japhb tries to imagine how different that actually is.
21:01 japhb A lot, let's understate it that way.
21:01 SevenWolf lol
21:01 SevenWolf building from source now
21:01 zakharyas1 joined #perl6
21:02 FROGGS SevenWolf++
21:07 dalek nqp/indy-args: 31d3bce | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTCompilerMAST.nqp:
21:07 dalek nqp/indy-args: Fix lexical code-gen/dyn-comp interaction.
21:07 dalek nqp/indy-args: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/31d3bceebd
21:08 jnthn bah, wrong branch, but still...
21:09 FROGGS you can cherry-pick it, no?
21:09 jnthn Or just merge the branch soon :P
21:10 FROGGS merge soon merge often :o)
21:10 jnthn Yeah. I heard that my last opt in it busts Parrot build, though...didn't get to look yet
21:10 cognominal joined #perl6
21:10 FROGGS a pro pos merge soon... do you have time to look at the labels branch these days?
21:11 FROGGS btw, I want to squish the sized-arrays branch into a single commit so it is easier to review (for you)
21:15 jnthn +1 to squish to a single commit to review
21:15 jnthn Labels branch...what's current status?
21:15 FROGGS k, now I have to lean how to do that :o)
21:15 jnthn git rebase -i, hack the text file
21:15 jnthn Labels branch...what's current status?
21:15 FROGGS jnthn: there is a nqp branch that adds support for labels for all loop for nqp code
21:15 FROGGS for parrot backend
21:23 dayangkun joined #perl6
21:26 bbkr joined #perl6
21:27 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
21:29 dayangkun joined #perl6
21:31 jeffreykegler Hi.  I'm here to borrow ideas for Marpa (my parser project), again.
21:31 jeffreykegler Currently, Marpa avoids the use of strings by making everything an integer, but it may add upper layers.
21:32 jeffreykegler Is there a doc on Perl6's use/interpretation of Unicode?
21:32 PerlJam jeffreykegler: care to write an advent article about what you've borrowed from Perl6?  :)
21:32 jeffreykegler Things like normalization, equality testing, etc.?
21:33 jeffreykegler Perljam: my own blog has been neglected for a month now
21:34 jeffreykegler Perljam: sorry
21:35 moritz S02 contains some bits about Unicode
21:36 jeffreykegler Marpa's upper layer is now Perl5, but exactly imitating its interpretation of Unicode does not seem like a good idea
21:37 jeffreykegler In particular, Perl 5 recognizes integers well outside the official Unicode range, which is great if you want to use Unicode ...
21:37 jeffreykegler ... as another means of encoding large integers ...
21:38 daverccr joined #perl6
21:38 jeffreykegler ... but perhaps not so great in terms of standard conformance.
21:41 jeffreykegler I found http://perlcabal.org/syn/S​02.html#Unicode_Semantics
21:44 timotimo what did i miss today?
21:45 raydiak jeffreykegler: the first couple paragraphs of S32 might also be useful to you
21:46 jnthn timotimo: A *huge* storm. :P
21:47 jnthn And I did a couple of small patches.
21:47 jnthn :)
21:47 timotimo sounds good :)
21:47 timotimo still no idea about the nulls?
21:49 jeffreykegler raydiak: https://github.com/perl6/specs/blob​/master/S32-setting-library/Str.pod -- the stuff about Str?
21:50 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
21:51 jeffreykegler Looking at stuff like this, I'm beginning to think of the EBCDIC vs. ASCII war as an age of peace and tranquility. :-)
21:55 raydiak jeffreykegler: yes, sorry - S32 Str is what I meant :)  specifically the first couple paragraphs where it talks about different unicode levels
21:55 TimK1 joined #perl6
21:55 daverccr left #perl6
21:57 raydiak though you may also get some answers by looking at the functions there, too...
21:58 * lue is reminded to blog about his provisional S15...
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: b227e62 | jnthn++ | src/core/ListIter.pm:
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: Allocate more sensibly in ListIter.
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b227e6294b
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: 262e600 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Mu.pm:
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: Properly DEPRECATE bless(*) calls
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/262e600cbb
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: 621739b | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into sized-arrays
21:58 dalek rakudo/sized-arrays: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/621739b049
22:01 lue FROGGS++ : for a second I had no clue who made that push :) .
22:02 FROGGS lue: I just try to rebase that branch (with no luk)
22:02 FROGGS luck*
22:02 lue .oO(luck -> luk -> luek -> lük)
22:04 jnthn Lök at that onion!
22:05 diakopter use the fours, luk
22:05 FROGGS jnthn: btw, that "good lok" was meant as a pun, because Lok eq train in german
22:05 jnthn Oh!
22:05 jnthn Yeah, same here. :) I'm not sure why I thought of onions...
22:06 FROGGS same here? my dict said something about onions too :o)
22:06 tgt joined #perl6
22:06 jnthn ooh
22:08 xenoterracide joined #perl6
22:10 timotimo i'm pretty tired now, but maybe tomorrow i'll get knee-deep into debugging the jvm interop dispatcher generator stuff
22:11 jnthn :)
22:11 * jnthn wonders if he'll sleep tonight with all this wind...
22:13 jeffreykegler Re Perl6 & Unicode: S02 refers to "NFG".  Searching the web, I cannot find references to NFG outside of the Parrot/Perl 6 world.
22:14 PerlJam jeffreykegler: aye, that's because it originates with Perl 6.
22:15 PerlJam well ... s/Perl 6/TimToady/ probably
22:16 lue jeffreykegler: It's basically NFC, with non-Unicode-standard negative numbers assigned to graphemes without precomposed characters.
22:16 timotimo http://www.amazon.de/review/R2X1LSQAG1SAPF/​ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&amp;ASIN=B00GJG0Q0​I&amp;linkCode&amp;nodeID&amp;tag=mflp-21
22:16 timotimo er, ww
22:17 jeffreykegler lue: Thanks
22:17 lue you're welcome :)
22:19 * PerlJam wonders if what lue said is the same thing as "leaves no uncomposed composing characters"
22:19 dalek rakudo/moar-support: c462531 | jnthn++ | src/core/ (3 files):
22:19 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Skip remaining few things that break setting load.
22:19 dalek rakudo/moar-support:
22:19 dalek rakudo/moar-support: With this, we can now do "Hello, world" with Rakudo on MoarVM; though
22:19 dalek rakudo/moar-support: it spits out a couple of warnings for the moment too.
22:19 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c46253184b
22:20 timotimo aaaaw yiss :3
22:20 timotimo m-BOOTSTRAP still gcbugs locally
22:20 FROGGS timotimo: --optimize=1 ?
22:21 * FROGGS tries
22:21 lue PerlJam: perhaps, though it likely implies that Unicode has those precompositions, instead of Perl 6 having to make it up.
22:21 lue (Critical in that is that we'll never be able to look at an NFG string directly.)
22:24 zakharyas joined #perl6
22:27 jeffreykegler Thanks.  What I think I was looking for was a relatively, simple pat choice among the choices in the Unicode standards ...
22:27 jeffreykegler ... which I could just borrow from Perl 6.  Any complaints, I could then say,
22:27 jeffreykegler ... "Hey look, this is the way Larry does it."
22:28 jeffreykegler ... but it looks like I am not going to be able to get away with anything like that.
22:31 jnthn timotimo: Need indy-args branch fwiw
22:31 jnthn I'll get that merged soon but not tonight.
22:37 jlaire joined #perl6
22:47 raiph masak, jnthn, of interest to edument? http://exercism.io/ # "Exercises with crowd-sourced code reviews"
22:49 FROGGS[mobile] that storm is back and it is just crazy
22:51 stevan_ joined #perl6
22:52 jnthn raiph: Hm, interseting idea...
22:53 jnthn FROGGS[mobile]: It comes and goes here :)
23:45 woolfy joined #perl6
23:54 dmol joined #perl6

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