Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-12-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 jnthn 'night, #perl6
00:02 BenGoldberg n: say 'alive'
00:02 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
00:06 lizmat joined #perl6
00:07 woolfy joined #perl6
00:37 dalek mu: 4983aa3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
00:37 dalek mu: sync titles of post to reality
00:37 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/4983aa3a1a
00:37 lizmat sadly, no one for tomorrow just yet
00:52 dalek roast: 476ad78 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency/ (2 files):
00:52 dalek roast: Some additional tests and variance in expressivity
00:52 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/476ad78980
00:53 lizmat some leftovers while working on short p6 presentation at last Amsterdam.pm meeting
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01:17 lizmat asleep in Paris&
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01:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: 4f6d4ac | coke++ | / (4 files):
01:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
01:33 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/4f6d4ac653
01:59 japhb__ OK, now there's an error I've never seen before:
01:59 japhb__ $ git describe
01:59 japhb__ warning: tag 'Malmö' is really 'Malmö' here
01:59 japhb__ Malmö-22-g262e600
01:59 * japhb__ wonders how that even happens
02:00 * geekosaur sees differences... normalized utf8
02:00 japhb In the right font, those do look different, BTW -- the dots are higher on the right in my terminal.
02:00 japhb The thing that mystifies me is why the tag is being treated as anything but a bag of bytes.
02:01 geekosaur they're offset slightly here on the right, making me think that one uses a combining character instead of the unified one
02:01 japhb__ Most likely, yeah.
02:02 japhb__ Still wondering how that happened in the first place ....
02:02 japhb I know, let's just insist on ASCII-only git tags!  >.<
02:06 japhb__ Has anyone seen this error?
02:06 japhb__ ./parrot -o runtime/parrot/include/parrotlib.pbc runtime/parrot/library/parrotlib.pir
02:06 japhb__ error:imcc:No such file or directory 'interpinfo.pasm' in file 'runtime/parrot/library/parrotlib.pir' line 194
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02:06 japhb__ I'm getting it in only one of my build trees.
02:08 japhb__ As far as I can tell, at the FS level there are two differences: 1) the broken one is on a network filesystem, while the working one is local, and 2) the broken one has the `git describe` output in its path, while the working one has an ASCII-only path.
02:09 japhb__ The failure is at a consistent spot, so it's not the network FS just being flaky.
02:09 * japhb__ tries knocking out one of the differences.
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02:24 japhb__ It looks like ASCII path on network FS is working fine.
02:25 japhb__ That's disappointing.  Not sure if the failure is the net FS or parrot's build.  But I suspect the latter.
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02:33 DrEeevil sigh, MoarVM "build system" needs a cattleprod
02:33 DrEeevil y'all need to learn more about packaging ;)
02:37 diakopter DrEeevil: what about it is sucky? (feel free to lambast) :)
02:37 DrEeevil diakopter: it tries to run git needlessly
02:37 DrEeevil so the release tarball is useless
02:37 DrEeevil and then it is VERY confused about where to put files
02:38 DrEeevil also it needlessly bundles stuff that could be provided by the system, I'm a gonna try to patch that up
02:38 diakopter immagonna coin some vernacular
02:38 diakopter (teehee)
02:39 diakopter DrEeevil: any suggestions/patches I'm sure would be welcomed
02:39 diakopter DrEeevil: what does it bundle that could be provided by the system
02:39 diakopter afaik all the bundled things have custom patches
02:40 DrEeevil diakopter: libtommath and libuv look like good candidates
02:40 diakopter libtommath definitely has custom patches
02:40 diakopter I know for a fact
02:40 japhb__ Yeah, I was about to say.
02:41 diakopter pretty sure libuv does too
02:41 diakopter DrEeevil: in both cases, however, the headers provided by the system versions don't expose enough
02:42 DrEeevil eew :(
02:44 DrEeevil that's so Google
02:44 * diakopter turns to look at japhb__
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02:47 DrEeevil oh well, I can tolerate the bundling ... just manually generating tarballs is annoying
02:47 DrEeevil and I still don't know how to get "make install" to do something reasonable
02:47 * japhb__ looks around at his bus mates
02:48 diakopter DrEeevil: what prefix
02:49 japhb__ OOC, what does the "that's so Google" comment even mean in this context?
02:49 DrEeevil diakopter: eh, sucky - make install ignores it, needs to be set at configure time
02:49 DrEeevil japhb__: google patches and bundles everything, Chromium still has >50 bundled libs for no reason except ... google
02:49 DrEeevil "oh let's just patch boost and nail it in, it saves me some thinking"
02:50 diakopter well, optimizers mumble mumble mumble static linking mumble
02:50 DrEeevil it's very cowboy coding stupid thingy
02:50 DrEeevil diakopter: yeah ... err ... needing >6GB RAM to *link* ?!
02:51 diakopter well that's C++'s fault :D
02:51 DrEeevil no, it can be used properly
02:51 diakopter (joking)
02:51 DrEeevil but by doing hackpatchery "to make startup faster" ...
02:51 * DrEeevil recommends increasing the medication dose ;)
02:51 diakopter double the max safe dose, I always say
02:52 DrEeevil here, have some opiates ;)
02:53 japhb__ LD50?  Why not LD100?
02:55 japhb__ As for so many bundled libs, I don't know Chromium's particular reasoning, but I do know from other projects that there is real, deep, horrible pain in trying to deal (as an upstream project) with version skew between distros when you need lots of libs.  Because frankly, many libs have the compatibility levels of pre-industrialized manufacturing.
02:56 japhb__ Which is to say, very little.
02:57 DrEeevil ... and nqp build system is ... uhm ... too much optimized
02:57 DrEeevil it should check if moar, parrot etc. are in PATH, maybe
02:57 DrEeevil japhb__: so hardcode it for specific versions - bundling is always wrong
02:58 DrEeevil japhb__: I have no trouble nailing dependencies down to specific revisions, but by bundling you just increase the pain level
02:58 japhb__ Heck, I remember that personally from working on the OpenGL bindings for Parrot.  When Apple decided one day to change some fundamental types that had been agreed by everyone since OpenGL existed, I just about threw up my hands.
02:58 DrEeevil (see v8 - no api stability, and it changes every 6 weeks)
02:58 DrEeevil heh. I don't support legacy OSen
02:59 japhb__ DrEeevil: Nail to revisions?  Really?  How is that a win, if no distro has an actively supported package of your nailed revision for every lib you need.
03:00 DrEeevil japhb__: I'm packager. I can make that package-revision if needed
03:00 DrEeevil trust me, I play a doctor on the Internet ;)
03:00 japhb__ It's easy to say, but either A) you nail a git rev, and insist on people building from git checkouts of all libs, or you realize that not all the world is Debian and just bundle.
03:00 DrEeevil but - being that specific is usually a sign of fragile code, iow: you're not doing things sanely
03:00 DrEeevil s/Debian/Gentoo/ ;)
03:01 japhb__ DrEeevil: It's not the callers that are insane, it's the libs.  BUGS.
03:01 DrEeevil so fix them
03:01 DrEeevil and by "fix" I don't mean local patching and that's it
03:01 japhb__ And if we could get even two distros to package a current version of any of our stuff, I would lend that more credence.
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03:01 DrEeevil you're part of an ecosystem, so ... behave properly
03:02 DrEeevil japhb__: am I the only distro-packager doing perl6 stuff?! :(
03:02 japhb__ DrEeevil: most end users do not keep the equivalent of an unstable repo in their repo list.  So you can never assume the end user will actually have the fixed version available to them from the system -- so back to source build, or bundle.
03:03 DrEeevil such an arcane way of doing things
03:03 japhb__ DrEeevil: not the only.  But possibly the only one trying to stay current right now, I don't know for certain.
03:04 japhb__ (Note: I have built packages for things in the past.  I don't do it anymore, because it made me weep for the time I will never get back.)
03:05 DrEeevil (sigh. why does nqp release depend on features that are not in moarvm release ...)
03:05 * DrEeevil cooks up a tarball from HEAD and pretends that's a release
03:05 japhb__ Gentoo, FreeBSD, etc. have the advantage of culturally building from source ... but not every distro is like that.
03:06 japhb__ Because MoarVM support is iterating more rapidly than monthly releases.
03:06 DrEeevil it's the only way to be sane ;)
03:06 DrEeevil well, if nqp release relies on something, then moarvm should have an intermediate release - not like you run out of numbers
03:07 japhb__ Releases take time and energy from the very small pool of people we have to work on it.
03:07 japhb__ Mind you, if you're volunteering to do rapid release cycles for MoarVM for us ...  ;-)
03:07 DrEeevil a single script ...
03:07 * DrEeevil is an automater
03:07 japhb__ There is more to a release than a script.
03:08 japhb__ But if you're volunteering to put up a CI server and integrate with that, ...
03:08 DrEeevil well, you tag the current HEAD, make a tarball, run regression test, and if it works push tarball and VCS and that's most of it
03:08 japhb__ Seeing a common thread.  ;-)
03:08 japhb__ s/./?/
03:09 japhb__ BTW, I don't mean to be difficult, or discouraging.
03:09 japhb__ Just understand ... things are rarely so simple as they seem at first glance.
03:09 DrEeevil well, I'll see if I can optimize things
03:10 japhb__ ++DrEeevil then.  :-)
03:10 DrEeevil but it's slightly irritating to see typical beginner mistakes in every perl6-related package
03:10 DrEeevil so I'm trying to reduce the pain
03:10 japhb__ We are all beginners at something.
03:10 DrEeevil indeed
03:18 diakopter release every minute
03:23 DrEeevil GORAMMIT
03:23 DrEeevil you cannot compute a version from git in a release tarball
03:23 * DrEeevil applies sed
03:24 * diakopter wonders how you'll get sed for windows
03:24 DrEeevil I don't deal with legacy platforms
03:26 japhb__ DrEeevil: ... but we do.
03:26 japhb__ Please don't berate design decisions we make because of our desire to be everywhere.
03:27 DrEeevil japhb__: I'm just pointing out how your "release tarballs" are worse than useless
03:28 DrEeevil which is a bit funny because it means that no one has ever used them
03:28 DrEeevil (and github makes it hard to change that, so ... double funny)
03:28 japhb__ Hard to change what?
03:29 DrEeevil to provide proper release tarballs
03:29 DrEeevil I'm getting really tired of having to work around that ... thing
03:30 DrEeevil so ... nqp+moarvm: http://bpaste.net/show/155958/ - so close, but no dice
03:30 * japhb__ looks at DrEeevil quizzically
03:30 DrEeevil japhb__: github - when it works (3 days a week on average) it's slow, glitchy, has known issues that have been reported literally years ago
03:30 DrEeevil it makes sourceforge look good
03:31 DrEeevil nqp-2013.11, moarvm HEAD
03:31 japhb__ <eight-year-old>That's hyperbole.<eight-year-old>
03:32 DrEeevil their downloads were completely not-working for a few days last week
03:32 japhb__ Which release tarballs are you referring to?  MoarVM?  NQP?
03:32 DrEeevil right now MoarVM, the release tarballs have two fatal failures :)
03:33 japhb__ Ah.  Well, I'm not surprised.  MoarVM is used pretty much only by people working on it.  It's not surprising that no one noticed the release tarball stop working.
03:34 japhb__ (I should say, that's only the case right now because of the very active work on it to bring support for Rakudo.)
03:35 diakopter I didn't even know there was a release tarball targe
03:35 dalek roast: 4e2b3d7 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S05-grammar/protoregex.t:
03:35 dalek roast: Fudge for Niecza.
03:35 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/4e2b3d7455
03:36 DrEeevil diakopter: automatically created if you have a tag
03:36 DrEeevil which is funny because it gives people a false sense of security
03:36 japhb__ Now, if NQP, Rakudo, or Rakudo Star release tarballs fail (especially R*), that's a bigger deal.
03:37 japhb__ Oh, you're just talking about GitHub auto-generating tarballs?  Then trusting those really is insane.
03:38 japhb__ I thought you were talking about ones generated using our build process and uploaded.
03:38 dalek roast: 9c3354e | (Solomon Foster)++ | S12-construction/construction.t:
03:38 dalek roast: Fudge for Niecza.
03:38 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/9c3354e80f
03:38 * japhb__ is about to turn into a pumpkin
03:38 DrEeevil japhb__: that's the trap of using github :)
03:39 DrEeevil I still refuse to interact with it more than strictly needed
03:39 lue That's the one thing I find funny about github: they refer to tags as "releases". Not that you'd ever use tags for anything else though :) .
03:39 DrEeevil lue: and half the time their release downloads are inaccessible
03:39 DrEeevil so ... screw that, use a professional service like BerliOS if you need free hosting
03:40 lue So I'm guessing now is that .5 of the time that the downloads are accessible, right? :)
03:42 lue .oO(at least the webfont'd private character next to "x Releases" is a picture of a tag)
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05:26 raiph DrEeevil: do you have an account on feather?
05:26 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
05:27 DrEeevil raiph: no
05:30 raiph DrEeevil: have you ever done a jenkins setup or anything like it?
05:32 DrEeevil raiph: I've set up random automation taks, but not jenkins (and the java bits suggest that I shouldn't be near it)
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05:41 raiph DrEeevil: i don't have the skills to do it, but i'm pretty sure a lot of us would love to see p6 get ci automation
05:41 DrEeevil indeedly
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06:17 moritz \o
06:18 FROGGS[mobile] o/
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07:39 Woodi morning :)
07:42 Woodi DrEeevil: our big problem is that distros do only one or two Perl6 packages a year... And each month we do releases for not-dev audience. Packaging just this would help a lot.
07:43 DrEeevil Woodi: I am too far removed from normality to understand this idea that stale == stable
07:43 Woodi DrEeevil: I would left packages of MoarVM alone for now becouse it have 'Hallo World' feature just 1 day old :)
07:43 DrEeevil Woodi: pff. nqp claims to support it as backend!11
07:43 Woodi DrEeevil: we thing Rakudo Star releases are moust usable
07:44 Woodi but nqp is still in half way to Pelt6
07:44 Woodi Perl6 of course
07:44 DrEeevil star is not really package-able for me
07:44 Woodi and Niecha had month releases, when was maintained...
07:45 DrEeevil yup, and it got some build system fixes to make it easier to build for me
07:45 DrEeevil that was quite nice while it lasted
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07:46 Woodi I have 10 star releases packaged via graft :) can switch them in two console-commands :)
07:47 Woodi but must say I tried to do Debian package of R* via one-script but something stopped me, no remember what... :)
07:48 Woodi Rakudo on Parrot is kind strange becouse it is subsystem of Parrot, it is installed like plugin not separate app...
08:03 hoelzro morning #perl6!
08:04 hoelzro Woodi: what's graft?
08:05 Woodi perl script to do packaging via links:  http://peters.gormand.com.au​/Home/tools/graft/graft-html
08:06 Woodi actually it compiles something, no idea what exactly it is internally :)
08:06 hoelzro interesting...
08:11 hoelzro perl6 --rxtrace is supposed to trace *every* rule during parsing, right?
08:11 hoelzro because for me, it stops at comp_unit
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08:39 Woodi I wonder is it possible to unbundle parrot and nqp from R* package. Maybe instead README can have "required" section with parrot/nqp version number and links. It will be good, at least, for me :)  --build-gen options are for devs and devs switches to githun anyway...
08:40 DrEeevil Woodi: that would make life easier for us, but harder for everyone else
08:41 nwc10 I think that that defeats the entire point of the R* distribution - that it tries to be an "everything you need to get started" download
08:43 hoelzro I can imagine breaking up rakudo-star into a package that depends on parrot and nqp
08:44 moritz well, for an OS package, R* would likely be a meta package
08:44 moritz that depends on Rakudo and the modules
08:44 moritz and Rakudo in turn depends on nqp
08:45 moritz and nqp on parrot, the JVM and later Moar
08:46 JimmyZ # perl Configure.pl --backends=moar --prefix=../MoarVM/install/
08:46 JimmyZ Missing braces on \N{} in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/(?<v>[\d\._]+)\N <-- HERE +\n(?<n>\S+)/ at Configu
08:46 JimmyZ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-thread-multi
08:46 hoelzro moritz: that's how I would do it
08:46 JimmyZ rakudo branch
08:47 moritz JimmyZ: is that in moar-support?
08:47 JimmyZ yeah
08:47 FROGGS JimmyZ: that was me
08:47 JimmyZ ;)
08:48 moritz FROGGS: simply use . instead of \N
08:48 FROGGS k
08:50 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 16da194 | (Tobias Leich)++ | Configure.pl:
08:50 dalek rakudo/moar-support: s/\N/./, JimmyZ++ and moritz++
08:50 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/16da1941ed
08:51 Woodi I always thinked R* do not need bundled Parrot (until it patch it...) a) ppls wantin to compile Perl6-thing can just download Parrot tgz with easy; b) ppls do not wanting to complie have .msi
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08:51 Woodi looks lazy ppls use .msi :>
08:51 JimmyZ hmm, make -j8 is broken in moar-support branch
08:53 Woodi in R* extracting knowledge what Parrot/nqp version is needed was paintfull, so bundling was usefull :)
08:53 hoelzro does anyone feel like "idiom-checking" some code I wrote last night?
08:53 hoelzro I implemented a min heap, but it feels like I'm writing another language in Perl 6
08:54 hoelzro if anyone's interested: https://gist.github.com/hoelzro/7820243
08:55 moritz (($current-index + 1) / 2).floor   I'd write that as  ($current-index + 1) div 2
08:55 moritz also, I find $current-index to be too verbose :-)
08:55 moritz I'd just name it $i
08:55 hoelzro ahhh
08:57 moritz also the outermost 'if' in method pop looks superfluous to me
08:57 moritz I'd write that as    my $value   = @!values.pop; return unless @!values; # code from the else-branch here
08:59 hoelzro ok, seems reasonable
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09:25 * lizmat has arrived at the Carrefour Numérique a la Cité des Sciences
09:26 lizmat aka patch -p1 is starting
09:26 hoelzro nice
09:27 hoelzro I wish I'd stop finding out about these things a few days before they happen =)
09:33 lizmat yes, the marketing of the patch -p1 left something to be desired
09:34 lizmat but I have no doubt there will be a patch -p2 sometime next year  :-)
09:36 * lizmat wonders how Chinese/Japanese developers use git tag
09:42 * lizmat will start with writing "Bagging the changes in the Set specification" advent post, so it can be used for tomorrow if no alternative presents itself
09:42 moritz lizmat++
09:42 moritz lizmat: re git tag, "with Unicode"?
09:43 lizmat yes, as Malmö apparently creates problems as a tag in some situations :-(
09:44 * moritz didn't have any
09:45 lizmat perhaps on ascii only filesystems ?
09:47 JimmyZ lizmat: for Chinese developers, they use english as git tag, or pinyin
09:47 JimmyZ and number
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09:49 mathw oh patch -p1 is an event?
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09:50 mathw lizmat: maybe in non-UTF8 locales?
09:50 mathw if such things still exist
09:50 lizmat http://patch.pm/p1
09:55 FROGGS hoelzro: I'd swap line 34 with line 35, and do: my int $left-index  = $right-index - 1
09:55 hoelzro why's that?
09:56 FROGGS hoelzro: so you dont do ($current-index + 1) * 2 twice
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09:56 hoelzro ah, fair enough
09:56 FROGGS and you see at once that the left index is rigth index minus one
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10:28 hoelzro if I'm debugging in NQP, and I want to dump something's time, will nqp::say(nqp::what($obj)) do the job?
10:28 hoelzro or do I have to do something like nqp::say(nqp::what($obj).name)?
10:29 lizmat I'm not sure, FROGGS might know
10:32 hoelzro also, if I want to say() something in NQP, and it tells me "cannot stringify this", can I add a method to the thing being said do enable stringification?
10:32 FROGGS nqp: my $a = "abc"; say($a.HOW.name($a))
10:32 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Assignment ("=") not supported in NQP, use ":=" instead at line 2, near " \"abc\"; sa"␤panic␤»
10:32 camelia ..nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«Assignment ("=") not supported in NQP, use ":=" instead at line 2, near " \"abc\"; sa"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 16262 (gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.pir:6020) (gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:426)␤»
10:32 camelia ..nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Assignment ("=") not supported in NQP, use ":=" instead at line 2, near " \"abc\"; sa"␤  in panic (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:379)␤  in infix:sym<=> (gen/jvm/stage2/NQP.nqp)␤  in !protoregex (gen/jvm/stage2/QRegex.nqp:746)␤  in infix (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp…»
10:32 FROGGS nqp: my $a := "abc"; say($a.HOW.name($a))
10:32 camelia nqp-moarvm, nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«BOOTStr␤»
10:32 camelia ..nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«Can only use get_how on a SixModelObject␤current instr.: '' pc 53 ((file unknown):44) (/tmp/ObK3epAQW1:1)␤»
10:32 FROGGS parrot does not like natives
10:33 hoelzro I'm getting pretty tired of Parrot.
10:33 FROGGS nqp: my $a := "abc"; say(nqp::objprimspec($a)) # 0=obj, 1=int, 2=num 3=str or so
10:33 camelia nqp-moarvm, nqp-jvm, nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«3␤»
10:33 hoelzro and I've only been looking into Rakudo for a few months now =/
10:34 FROGGS hoelzro: but that is our design, not parrot's fault
10:34 hoelzro doesn't matter! blaming Parrot!
10:34 FROGGS :P
10:35 hoelzro denouncing!
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10:47 FROGGS r: say $*VM<config><prefix>
10:47 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-2␤»
10:47 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
10:47 FROGGS Any? :(
10:48 jnthn FROGGS: What's under <config> is VM-specific at the moment, iirc
10:48 jnthn See terms.pm for how it gets the prefix out differently.
10:49 FROGGS r: say $*VM<properties><perl6.prefix>
10:49 camelia rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/rakudo-inst-1␤»
10:49 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
11:17 szabgab joined #perl6
11:18 szabgab hi,  I just compiled * 2013.11 on OSX
11:18 rurban1 joined #perl6
11:18 szabgab and tried to    panda list    but it takes ages
11:19 szabgab actually after 5 or 10 min I stopped it without seeing any output
11:20 denis_boyun joined #perl6
11:20 FROGGS seems like it is unable to fetch http://feather.perl6.nl:3000/projects.json
11:20 FROGGS hmm, and so am I
11:21 szabgab my little resarch also showed that it gets stuck in the method update
11:21 szabgab that was supposed to fetch that file
11:21 szabgab FROGGS: but how did you see that so fast?
11:23 FROGGS szabgab: I know what it wants to do and that is the only thing that is likely to hang
11:23 FROGGS and I've got that projects.json in my browser's history, so I tried
11:24 FROGGS I can connect to http://feather.perl6.nl:3000, but I don't seem to get the json file :/
11:24 jnthn Something not restarted after recent reboot, maybe?
11:24 FROGGS jnthn: no, I was able to fetch that file yesterday evening
11:25 jnthn oh...
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12:07 hoelzro grr
12:07 hoelzro how much memory does it take to build jakudo?
12:08 jnthn Couple of gigs last I checked.
12:09 hoelzro curses!
12:10 nwc10 hoelzro: what was the answer you were hoping for?
12:10 hoelzro hmm
12:10 hoelzro I guess I didn't know what else to expect
12:11 hoelzro considering my VM with 2.5GB RAM kills the build process everytime
12:13 lizmat S32/Containers:1162
12:14 lizmat S32:1162
12:14 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32.html#line_1162
12:15 * lizmat wishes synopsebot would point S32/Containers:1162 correctly to http://perlcabal.org/syn/S3​2/Containers.html#line_1162
12:19 rurban1 joined #perl6
12:21 moritz S32::Containers:1162
12:22 lizmat I think the regex should just also allow /
12:22 lizmat before the :
12:22 lizmat and all would be well, no?
12:32 p5eval joined #perl6
12:32 lizmat S03:3311
12:32 synopsebot Link: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html#line_3311
12:33 lizmat .oO( just abusing the synopsebot to get links )
12:33 jnthn Isn't that what it's for? :P
12:40 * colomon used to abuse the ir clog for links...
12:48 * moritz too
12:56 dalek specs: 9fdb85e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:
12:56 dalek specs: I don't think we ever had a MixBag
12:56 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9fdb85ecfd
13:04 * lizmat provisionally finished Day 12 of advent: https://gist.github.com/lizmat/7823431/raw/f5d515​ad35f6afec2d4c09dc43f85b3e9afff242/gistfile1.txt
13:05 lizmat comments welcome: moritz, masak, jnthn ?
13:05 lizmat lue?  :-)
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13:38 lizmat ok, scheduled the post for Dec 12, 0:00.
13:39 lizmat if we need it for tomorrow, it's just a matter of changing the title (s/12/07) and the publish date
13:39 FROGGS lizmat++
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13:56 ajr joined #perl6
13:58 ajr_ Is the equivalent of $. implemented in P6 yet?
13:59 V_S_C joined #perl6
13:59 moritz p: my $dummy = get(); say $*ARGFILES.ins
13:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:24 ajr_ Thanks, moritz
14:49 thou joined #perl6
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14:56 woolfy I just read and re-read lizmat++ 's advent calender day 12 contribution (  https://gist.github.com/lizmat/7823431/raw/f5d515​ad35f6afec2d4c09dc43f85b3e9afff242/gistfile1.txt ) and I liked it (not understood it completely, but hell)
15:03 PerlJam woolfy: maybe that's a sign that lizmat++ needs to expand on a couple of things to make them more understandable?
15:03 lizmat fwiw, it already felt as a long advent blog post
15:04 * PerlJam is reading now
15:04 lizmat apparently, there is a preview available at http://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/?p=1938&amp;preview=true
15:05 PerlJam ah, even better
15:07 woolfy PerlJam: no, it's a sign that I should study Perl 6 better and harder and more in-depth and that at home I should ask more 'stupid' questions to lizmat++
15:08 PerlJam you know ... I'm not sure who our audience is with the advent calendar.  For instance, "implemented as dispatchers" and "expense of another call frame" may not make enough sense to our readers without links to somewhere that explain
15:09 lizmat ah, good point
15:09 lizmat hmmm....
15:09 PerlJam however, lizmat++ for an excellent advent post!
15:09 woolfy Our audience?  We should all mention the advent calendar on our facebook, in our tweets, in our own blogs, on this channel and on other channels and mailing lists.  That might easily double to audience from 10 to 20 readers!
15:10 woolfy (or what that number demotivational)
15:10 lizmat woolfy: it's more than that already (moritz has the numbers)
15:10 PerlJam woolfy: do you have a wordpress login for the advent calendar?
15:11 moritz we've had between 600 and 1k page views per day since Dec 01
15:11 woolfy ow cool
15:11 moritz today "only" 320, but today isn't over yet
15:11 colomon best ever 11,000 views.
15:11 woolfy I do have a wordpress login.
15:11 moritz woolfy: if you tell me the login name, I can invite you to that blog
15:12 moritz colomon: that was when slashdot had us on the front page
15:12 PerlJam The residual 50ish views each day in Nov are interesting too :)
15:12 woolfy moritz: my login name is wendyga
15:13 woolfy ( http://wendyga.wordpress.com/ )
15:13 moritz woolfy: invitation sent
15:13 woolfy Which reminds me that I have to write a next blog about Fosdem...  we have a devroom and we need speakers...
15:13 woolfy moritz: thanks
15:18 PerlJam Has anyone "advertised" the advent calendar around the internet this year?
15:19 PerlJam I see there's a perlmonk post that mentions is.
15:19 PerlJam er it
15:20 woolfy Moritz:  "invited you to become an editor"???   ow...  I just accepted the invitation...  now I have to write too...  I don't wanna write about something that I know not enough about.
15:21 fhelmberger joined #perl6
15:21 PerlJam woolfy: you don't *have* to write something ... but if you have something interesting to say ...  :-)
15:21 lizmat PerlJam: made the reference to dispatcher and call frame a bit less incrowdy
15:22 lizmat PerlJam++ for the suggestion
15:22 woolfy PerlJam: maybe at Fosdem at the Perl-booth...  not on a blog about Perl 6.
15:22 moritz woolfy: as an editor you have the possibilities to preview other people's posts
15:22 moritz woolfy: which is why I chose that permission level -- feel free not to use the extra power :-)
15:25 woolfy I just want to read and maybe I will comment by email.
15:25 moritz that should work with the current permissions :-)
15:28 * colomon is afraid power will go to woolfy++'s head…  ;)
15:28 * PerlJam is scheming how to get an advent post out of woolfy for next season  ;)
15:30 jnthn "An illustrated guide to the tuits of 2014" :D
15:33 lizmat I think an illustrated guide to the tuits and buttons of 2013 would already be possible  :-)
15:33 jnthn aye :)
15:33 lizmat including some pictures of the biggest tuit of them all
15:33 * jnthn will take some pretty Camelia tuits with him to his Build Stuff talk next week :)
15:34 woolfy You nutty people stop scheming to get me writing advent calender stuff.  I will not do it.  Hmm, maybe.  No no no!  Aw come on...   NOOOOOO!!!!
15:35 lizmat please?
15:35 jnthn haha :)
15:35 woolfy oO(how bad would cancelling my whole Wordpress-account be?)
15:36 jnthn .oO( Could cause locuts plagues and a nuclear winter... )
15:36 moritz PerlJam: start scheming your own advent post!
15:36 lizmat .oO( how many levels of reverse psychology would be needed to get woolfy to write an advent post? )
15:37 PerlJam moritz: I've been scheming, but nothing has gelled yet. :(
15:37 woolfy oO(I am sleepy and want to go into hibernation for the rest of winter)
15:38 jnthn r: sub woolfy() { say 'psychology'.comb.reverse.join; woolfy }; woolfy
15:38 raiph joined #perl6
15:38 colomon lolcats plagues?
15:38 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«(timeout)ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcy​sp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp​␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤y​golohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygo​lohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp…»
15:38 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygoloh​cysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcy​sp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp​␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤y​golohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp␤ygolohcysp…»
15:39 PerlJam lizmat, woolfy: Have you guys seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1TZaElTAs ?  That the tuits are "woodne nickels" resonates with the shinto shrine that Shirky talks about  :)
15:41 woolfy Read about that movie and about the shrine and the Unesco response. Watching the movie right now.
15:41 woolfy jnthn: it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working! it's not working!
15:42 lizmat :-)
15:42 lizmat r: %(:a :b).perl.say
15:42 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«("a" => Bool::True).hash␤»
15:42 lizmat n: %(:a :b).perl.say
15:42 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
15:42 lizmat std: %(:a :b).perl.say
15:42 camelia std 3b262af: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 124m␤»
15:42 nwc10 jnthn: that's not too bad. It's not like you said "hoardes of Zombies"
15:43 lizmat n: %(:a :b).perl.say
15:43 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
15:43 jnap joined #perl6
15:44 jnthn lizmat: I *think* that's adverbing the adverb. It's oddly confusedly dropping it somehow, I guess...
15:45 lizmat afaics, it's *not* getting passed as a named parameter to e.g. Hash.new
15:45 jnthn No, I doubt it will be
15:45 jnthn I suspect it's just getting lost
15:45 lizmat seems it's getting lost in the AST building
15:45 moritz lost in adverbian
15:45 jnthn Probably 'cus nothing notices it's there, or thinks to look.
15:45 jnthn I don't know exactly where that'd want fixing, off hand...
15:46 lizmat well, I would think we want that to be passed as a named parameter, and then have e.g. Hash.new complain about additional named parameters ?
15:47 lizmat or maybe we should force multiple named parameters to have no whitespace between them
15:47 lizmat and make it a TTIAR error ?
15:48 lizmat the fact that forgetting a comma makes code silently forget, feels pretty bad to me
15:48 ajr joined #perl6
15:48 jnthn lizmat: I'm not sure exactly what should happen here...
15:48 jnthn I know that in:
15:49 jnthn foo(:a :b)
15:49 jnthn It's meant to be have like
15:49 jnthn foo(:a, :b)
15:49 jnthn It's certainly not meant to just be silently forgotten.
15:50 rurban1 joined #perl6
15:53 lizmat n: sub foo { say %_.perl }; foo(:a :b)
15:53 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
15:53 lizmat r: sub foo { say %_.perl }; foo(:a :b)
15:53 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60, rakudo-jvm 262e60: OUTPUT«("a" => Bool::True).hash␤»
15:53 lizmat .oO( is niecza on the blink? )
15:54 denis_boyun joined #perl6
15:55 lizmat jnthn: what does "QAST::Op(call &foo) foo(:a :b)" mean
15:55 lizmat is the "foo(:a :b)" just comments ?
15:56 FROGGS yes
15:56 FROGGS it is just what in $/ was when calling the action method
15:57 lizmat ok
15:57 lizmat diffing -uw the --target=ast
15:57 lizmat +                  - QAST::Op+{QAST::SpecialArg}(p6bool)
15:57 lizmat +                    - QAST::IVal(1)
15:57 lizmat +                        - QAST::Op+{QAST::SpecialArg}(p6bool)
15:57 lizmat +                          - QAST::IVal(1)
15:57 lizmat is what seems to be added for the case with comma
15:58 lizmat I guess the "QAST::Op+{QAST::SpecialArg}(p6bool)" is a stringification that loses the name of the key, right?
15:59 FROGGS it does not show the key, never
15:59 Psyche^_ joined #perl6
15:59 lizmat ah, ok
15:59 FROGGS p: say (:a :b)
15:59 woolfy So, question...  I am reading the Perl 6 Advent Calendar: http://wordpress.com/read/blog/id/10740073/    and I see '30 followers'.  If I would use this URL on my Facebook page, would my friends be able to read the contributions?
15:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«"a" => Bool::True␤»
15:59 moritz patches to make the QAST dumper more informative or clear are always welcome :-)
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16:00 lizmat hmmm... so the name of the keys can never be seen in the AST dump ?
16:00 PerlJam woolfy: aye, they should.
16:00 * moritz decommuters
16:01 FROGGS PerlJam: not as far as I know
16:01 jnthn lizmat: Knowing how those work, I think it's likely they don't get shown, yeah.
16:01 PerlJam hmm.
16:02 FROGGS btw, the ":a :b" parses as a single term:sym<colonpair> according to viv
16:02 FROGGS like in:
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16:02 FROGGS p: use Test:a :b
16:02 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while importing from 'Test': no such tag 'b'␤»
16:02 FROGGS ohh
16:03 FROGGS interesting
16:03 FROGGS p: use Test:a:b
16:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 262e60: ( no output )
16:03 jnthn I suspect it does in Rakudo too; it's the EXPR that parses the other one...
16:03 jnthn Well, it's that infix can parse a colonpair...
16:11 woolfy PerlJam: ok, thanks, I will mention it
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16:25 lizmat n: sub foo { say %_.perl }; foo(:a :b)
16:25 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
16:25 lizmat I guess niecza *is* on the blink
16:28 [Coke] lizmat: first time you use niecza, it auto compiles the setting. try again.
16:28 [Coke] n: sub foo { say %_.perl }; foo(:a :b)
16:28 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
16:29 colomon :(
16:29 colomon n: say "Hi"
16:29 [Coke] whoever has the camelia code to build niecza, if you run a simple hello world after the build, it'll do that step for us.
16:29 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
16:29 colomon seems like something is wrong here?
16:30 [Coke] it can take a little while, but 5m seems excessive. wonder if we're screwing it up byasking repeatedly. ;)
16:30 * [Coke] heads back to dayjob.
16:30 sqirrel joined #perl6
16:30 dalek rakudo-star-daily: 858b52a | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
16:30 dalek rakudo-star-daily: today (automated commit)
16:30 dalek rakudo-star-daily: review: https://github.com/coke/rakudo​-star-daily/commit/858b52a0b9
16:31 [Coke] https://github.com/coke/rakudo-star-d​aily/blob/master/log/test-modules.log - don't see any deprecation warnings or failures. whee.
16:31 lizmat [Coke]++
16:31 lizmat so, just over 6 hours until the next advent blog and no takers yet
16:32 lizmat around an hour from now, patch -p1 will shut down for the day and I will be most likely offline for the evening
16:32 [Coke] I am dayjobbed out. I might be able to take one later in the month, after a weekend.
16:32 lizmat maybe I should just schedule my day 12 presentation for tonight ?
16:33 xinming joined #perl6
16:35 PerlJam lizmat: +1 (especially since you've already got it written :)
16:35 [Coke] lizmat: it would save a kitten.
16:35 jnthn +1
16:36 jnthn .oO( Every time you write a Perl 6 advent post last minute, God kills a kitten? )
16:36 lizmat ok, scheduled for 7 Dec 2013, UTC 0:00
16:36 [Coke] lizmat++
16:37 dalek mu: b0e7c18 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
16:37 dalek mu: Move Day 12 to Day 7
16:37 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b0e7c18940
16:37 lizmat which means our first open day is Dec 12 now
16:38 [Coke] I'll take the 12th.
16:38 [Coke] put me down for something. :|
16:39 dalek mu: 778f99c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
16:39 dalek mu: Putting coke up to something
16:39 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/778f99ca4d
16:39 lizmat :-)
16:40 PerlJam lizmat++  (you were reading my mind apparently)
16:40 lizmat great minds think alike  :-)
16:40 [Coke] subroutine signatures? Doesn't look like we've had a post specifically on that.
16:41 [Coke] ah. ok, leave that one, put me down for another one on the 21st.
16:41 lizmat about subroutine signatures ?
16:43 bluescreen10 joined #perl6
16:44 dalek mu: 74fe36c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
16:44 dalek mu: Putting coke up for some more on the 21st
16:44 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/74fe36c2af
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16:49 * lizmat gives up on foo(:a :b) for now
16:53 woolfy OK, when I log out of WordPress and try to view http://wordpress.com/read/blog/id/10740073/ it wants me to sign in before allowing me to read it.
16:53 woolfy So that URL is not something I can tell my friends to go read.  Most of them have no account on WordPress.
16:54 woolfy Anybody a better idea?
16:54 lizmat sorry, /me is a complete Wordpress noob
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16:56 [Coke] as opposed to http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/ ?
16:56 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
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16:56 [Coke] ok, dayjob ferrealz.
16:57 lizmat woolfy: perhaps http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/11/ ?  that gives you a table of contents
16:59 * lizmat sees perlpilot editing the toc  :-)
17:01 woolfy lizmat++  that's much better thank you
17:02 woolfy [Coke]++ thank you, would have worked too
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17:11 woolfy So, advertised the advent calendar on my FB page.
17:11 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
17:12 ajr joined #perl6
17:14 lizmat cool!
17:19 dalek rakudo/nom: dcf13b5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/vm/jvm/core/Promise.pm:
17:19 dalek rakudo/nom: Fix param snafu in Promise.then
17:19 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/dcf13b5dab
17:19 denis_boyun joined #perl6
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17:25 dalek roast: f7caca4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S17-concurrency/promise.t:
17:25 dalek roast: Add Promise.allof test that previously failed
17:25 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/f7caca4494
17:26 lizmat patch -p1 dismantling for today, see you guys later&
17:30 FROGGS[mobile] joined #perl6
17:31 moritz idea for an advent post: rewrite the code on http://leonerds-code.blogspot.co.uk​/2013/12/futures-advent-day-1.html and the following posts in p6 :-)
17:32 * woolfy says I love you all with a huge great love and until tomorrow
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18:36 timotimo i spent pretty much all day playing starbound with two friends
18:36 timotimo now for some relaxing java debugging
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19:09 lue lizmat++ excellent post
19:09 lue .oO(So you're saying if we toss the Norwegian Blue we can use literal Unicode in the setting like civilized people? I'm OK with that.)
19:10 TimToady let's wait until we have moar options
19:17 PerlJam This channel always makes me smile  :-)
19:17 lue TimToady: But of course :)
19:18 lue .oO(We just need to give MoarVM an animal mascot, and name it Eric.)
19:19 jnthn Hm, a few of us pondered a Moar mascot at YAPC::EU and I think a Chimera was what we came up with... :)
19:20 jnthn .oO( anagram of "eric ham"... )
19:22 TimToady with eric internalizing occuaptional therapy, you have erOTic, which is OT
19:22 PerlJam As soon as someone puts a chimera on the flip side of a tuit, it'll be official :)
19:23 btyler joined #perl6
19:23 lue jnthn: sounds great, you just need to get a license for Eric now...
19:23 TimToady .oO(Better Eric the Red than Eric the Dead...)
19:24 * TimToady liefs now before someone swings a battleax at him
19:25 * FROGGS .oO( battleaux - Is that french? )
19:27 TimToady wouldn't you vike to know?
19:29 PerlJam TimToady: you must've been exercising to need all of that stretching
19:29 PerlJam :)
19:30 TimToady it's already a long boat
19:32 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 84e430f | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:
19:32 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Avoid another p6bindassert with Mu.
19:32 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/84e430f241
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19:56 raydiak I can't seem to recall where in the synopses I read about this: How do I call a method in a parent class from my method which overrides it?
19:56 jnthn self.LeParentClass::method(...) to be very explicit
19:57 jnthn But normall one of callsame/callwith/nextsame/nextwith is enough.
19:57 jnthn *normally
19:58 jnap joined #perl6
19:59 raydiak thanks jnthn++ ...I should locally clone the specs so I can grep them
20:01 japhb Is panda supposed to work properly for installing to both the parrot and jvm backends when you have a single rakudo tree with both backends installed?
20:08 kivutar joined #perl6
20:09 jnthn Don't think so...
20:09 diakopter .
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts: eb9cd18 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts: Make paramless block opt on JVM a level 3.
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts:
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts: Breaks some spectests. Need better analysis before it can become a
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts: level 2. Doesn't break anything in the setting itself, though, so we
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts: can keep the benefit from better optimizing that.
20:10 dalek rakudo/opts: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/eb9cd18928
20:10 japhb jnthn: Sigh.
20:11 japhb OK, at least I know to stop banging my head against it.
20:13 jnthn japhb: We only had a build system that could build/install both at once for a couple of months. We only had a second backend that was useful for stuff 4-5 months... It's not so surprising Panda doesn't know how to handle this case yet.
20:15 vky joined #perl6
20:20 jnthn nqp: class A { has $!a; method a() { $!a } }; say(nqp::isnull(np::create(A).a))
20:20 camelia nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Can not invoke this object␤  in  (/tmp/1vjTjeiUJ7:1)␤  in  (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1100)␤  in eval (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086)␤  in evalfiles (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292)␤  in command_eval (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1196)␤  in command_line (ge…»
20:20 camelia ..nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'NQPMu'␤current instr.: '' pc 138 ((file unknown):76) (/tmp/_gs92h975A:1)␤»
20:20 camelia ..nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Cannot invoke this object␤frame_name_0␤»
20:21 jnthn nqp: class A { has $!a; method a() { $!a } }; say(nqp::isnull(nqp::create(A).a))
20:21 camelia nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«1␤»
20:21 camelia ..nqp-jvm, nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«0␤»
20:22 TimToady Doesn't putting Python references into our advent postings violate our anti-anti-lol policy somehow?
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20:34 jnthn um...seems nqp-p.bat on windows ends up containg a shell script. wtf.
20:35 lue jnthn: maybe it's a BATch of shell scripts? :)
20:38 jnthn I can't actually figure out where gen\parrot\nqp_launcher comes from...
20:39 jnthn fill_template_file('src/vm/parrot/nqp.sh', 'gen/parrot/nqp_launcher', %config);
20:39 jnthn ...oh.
20:41 lue ? wouldn't/shouldn't that be parrot's built-in nqp there?
20:42 jnthn huh?
20:42 jnthn No, it should have a conditional and use the nqp.bat on Windows.
20:51 raiph joined #perl6
20:51 sjohnson anti-lol = no laughing
20:53 dalek nqp/indy-args: ee45ffe | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
20:53 dalek nqp/indy-args: Fix NQP runner on Windows, so make test works.
20:53 dalek nqp/indy-args: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ee45ffe9e9
20:53 dalek nqp/indy-args: ed3c300 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Node.nqp:
20:53 dalek nqp/indy-args: Fix build on Parrot after indy-args work.
20:53 dalek nqp/indy-args: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ed3c300166
20:57 colomon rn: say 5 +< 8
20:57 camelia rakudo-parrot dcf13b, rakudo-jvm dcf13b: OUTPUT«1280␤»
20:57 camelia ..niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
21:00 lue r: my $a = 0x80; my int8 $b = 0x80; say ($a +< 1).fmt("%02X"); say ($a +< 1).fmt("%02X");
21:00 camelia rakudo-parrot dcf13b, rakudo-jvm dcf13b: OUTPUT«100␤100␤»
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21:22 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 28 commits to nqp by jnthn
21:27 lue .oO(What is a heuristic branch merge anyway?)
21:29 rurban1 joined #perl6
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21:32 timotimo turns out: no jvm work until now :P
21:35 * colomon is trying to puzzle out enough of sorear++'s regex handler to fix sigspace
21:36 dalek rakudo/nom: afb0511 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
21:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Start trying to use callstatic where possible.
21:36 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/afb05111bf
21:36 dalek rakudo/nom: ceb7f13 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp:
21:36 dalek rakudo/nom: Avoid double-walking trees in sink context.
21:37 dalek joined #perl6
21:39 dalek rakudo/nom: de5c8f8 | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
21:39 dalek rakudo/nom: Bump NQP_REVISION.
21:39 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de5c8f874e
21:46 lee_ i'm getting an error trying to build the latest nqp-jvm (after a make clean)
21:46 lee_ https://gist.github.com/leedo/0243ac58685541a7bc1e
21:46 lee_ hope that is of some help
21:46 lee_ i should try a clean nqp checkout i guess
21:46 japhb lue: It means dalek saw a big pile of commits, heuristically assumed they were from a branch merge, and rather than spam the channel, it just said it looked like a branch merge happened.
21:47 ajr joined #perl6
21:47 jnthn lee_: Ah...that looks like an error reporting fail due to the bootstrap using an old op, rather than a real failure...
21:47 lee_ trying a clean checkout
21:48 dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 61 commits to rakudo/moar-support by jnthn
21:48 jnthn uh, ratehr than *the* real failure
21:48 lue japhb: I figured something like that, though perhaps "28 commits pushed to nqp by jnthn. That's quite a bit" or something would avoid having to guess things :)
21:49 jnthn Anybody pushing that much at once is probably merging a branch. OR they just had a really long hacking vacation in a place without internets :)
21:49 lue come to think of it, "28 commits pushed ... . Last of the commits is:" followed by the last commit in traditional dalek style might be a nice improvement.
21:49 japhb It's getting harder and harder to have a hack vacation without internets.
21:50 jnthn japhb: True that... :)
21:50 lue (because the Heuristic message provides no links or anything to view what happened. Not that it's unbearable, but would be nice otherwise.)
21:52 jnthn Anyway, the thing I just pushed was just sync'ing moar-support with the latest work from nom.
21:52 timotimo and nqp's master branch now has all the goodies?
21:52 jnthn Yeah
21:52 timotimo yays
21:52 jnthn indy-args is merged and gone.
21:52 lue .oO( <dalek> 37 commits to branch foo by bar. EXPLAIN! )
21:53 lue jnthn++ # merging work into master is always worth something :)
21:53 jnthn And the Rakudo opts branch is merged into nom and gone.
21:55 timotimo did moar-support get goodies, too?
21:55 timotimo ah, yes
21:55 timotimo cool
21:55 jnthn I merged opts into nom before I merged nom into moar-support, yes.
21:56 jnthn git++ # making this stuff easy
21:58 jnthn I guess main question for the future is when we want to merge moar-support :)
21:58 jnthn Probably when sanity test passes...
21:59 timotimo sounds sane
21:59 jnthn :P
21:59 dmol joined #perl6
22:00 timotimo huh, weird: No rule to make target `tools/build/create-moar-runner.pl', needed by `m-install'.  Stop.
22:01 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
22:02 jnthn You're trying to m-install it? :P
22:02 timotimo i'm trying to -j3 install
22:03 timotimo Heap corruption detected: pointer 0x2ae949585cf8 to past fromspace   so that wasn't fixed yet? :(
22:03 jnthn No; didn't reproduce it locally here yet either.
22:04 timotimo OK. i'll try to go at it again without --optimize
22:04 jnthn Something happens when we build with --optimize.
22:06 lizmat joined #perl6
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22:11 lizmat good *, #perl6!
22:11 lizmat I just git pulled and tried to make install, and get:
22:11 lizmat Error while compiling op call: Method 'jast' not found for invocant of class 'NQPMu'
22:12 lizmat trying from a reconfigure again now
22:13 jnthn You'll need an NQP update too, if you didn't already...
22:13 jnthn I did bump NQP_REVISION, though...
22:13 lizmat well, a simple make install didn't seem to pick that up
22:14 timotimo yeah, that check only hppens when you run configure
22:14 lizmat should it have?
22:14 lizmat ah, ok
22:16 jnthn Ah, I thought we'd got a makefile dependency on it...
22:18 zakharyas joined #perl6
22:19 lizmat compiled and installed ok now
22:20 lizmat running spectest now
22:21 lizmat oops, only configured ok until now... making now
22:21 jnthn lizmat: For me, the latest stuff shaved nearly half a minute or so off spectest on JVM.
22:22 jnthn lizmat: Hopefully it's a little faster for you too :)
22:22 * lizmat hopes so too
22:23 timotimo the stage after optimize for moarvm takes reeeeally long if you're not optimized
22:23 lizmat btw, how do you run the spectests on JVM, without using the evalserver ?
22:24 timotimo Unhandled exception: Cannot invoke this object - this is the one i should see, right? for Pod::To::Text?
22:24 timotimo well, i get to a hello world \o/
22:24 lizmat if I just do 'make j-spectest' , after about ~30 test files, it starts to say 'no subtests run'
22:28 jnthn lizmat: No, I just make spectest
22:28 jnthn timotimo: Yeah, though I think it's for Test.pm...
22:28 lizmat with an TEST_JOBS setting ?
22:28 timotimo you are right.
22:29 * raydiak has to run and may be gone for many hours, but just so someone knows, day 8 advent post is in good shape and will be ready on time
22:30 rurban1 joined #perl6
22:31 denisboyun joined #perl6
22:31 jnthn lizmat: Yeah, 6, iirc
22:33 lizmat ah, not 8 then
22:33 lizmat (which is what I use)
22:35 lizmat t/spec/S05-mass/properties-script.rakudo.jvm ................. No subtests run   :-(
22:36 lizmat runnint with TEST_JOBS=6 now
22:42 hoelzro timotimo: ping
22:44 lizmat Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM warning: Exception java.lang.OutOfMemoryError occurred dispatching signal SIGINT to handler- the VM may need to be forcibly terminated
22:44 lizmat Exception in thread "Thread-0"
22:44 lizmat Exception: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError thrown from the UncaughtExceptionHandler in thread "Thread-0"
22:44 lizmat jippie!
22:44 lizmat :-(
22:45 lizmat so I still can't do a JVM spectest  completely
22:45 diakopter exceptionhandler threw an exception
22:45 diakopter not very handled
22:47 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
22:48 timotimo hoelzro: pong
22:48 hoelzro timotimo: is Starbound any good?
22:51 filly joined #perl6
22:52 woolfy left #perl6
22:56 TimK1 r: sub f(Array[Int] $a) { }; my Int @a = 1,2,3; f(@a)
22:56 camelia rakudo-jvm de5c8f: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'␤  in block  at /tmp/TmgGpkNk2u:1␤  in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤  in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292␤  in any command_eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1196␤  in any com…»
22:56 camelia ..rakudo-parrot de5c8f: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$a'; expected Array[Int] but got Array[Int] instead␤  in sub f at /tmp/tMT7em56P6:1␤  in block  at /tmp/tMT7em56P6:1␤  in any  at /tmp/tMT7em56P6:1␤  in any  at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146␤  in any…»
22:57 TimK1 Is that me or Rakudo getting confused? (Or a little of each?)
22:57 jnthn Rakudo.
22:57 TimK1 OK. Thx.
22:57 timotimo hoelzro: i like it. i've been playing with two friends
22:57 jnthn sub f(Int @a) { ... } works
22:57 timotimo the linux port is fine
22:57 hoelzro I saw it like a week ago; the idea intrigued me
22:57 hoelzro might have to pick it up =)
22:58 timotimo there's a post on their blog telling you when the right moment to join the beta is
22:58 lizmat parrot spectest ok
22:58 timotimo at the moment you can expect frequent wipes of your worlds/characters, i bet
22:58 timotimo and crazy loads of balancing changes
22:58 lizmat seems to have gone down from 480 seconds to 440 seconds wallclock
22:58 lizmat hmmm... that was testjobs=6
22:58 hoelzro ouch
22:58 lizmat trying again with testjobs=8
22:58 timotimo 10%?
22:59 Piers_ joined #perl6
23:00 Piers_ So... if a chap is interested in playing with Perl 6 and concurrency again, is it worth trying to play with MoarVM, or am I better off with the Java build?
23:00 timotimo you'd have to wait a bit longer to play with concurrency on moarvm i'm afraid
23:00 timotimo we just got to hello world this week
23:00 * Piers_ grins.
23:00 Piers_ Congrats!
23:01 timotimo (though hello world on rakudo means a whole lot already)
23:01 * hoelzro isn't sure if 10% was referring to a Perl 6 thing or a Starbound thing
23:01 Piers_ Yeah.
23:01 timotimo hoelzro: that was the speed improvement
23:01 timotimo a bad estimae, though. would be more like 8%
23:01 hoelzro ah, ok
23:02 timotimo if you'd like, we can hop onto mumble or something and i'll host a game (but i'm out of the house right now)
23:02 hoelzro maybe another night
23:03 hoelzro almost bed time for me =)
23:03 jnthn Yes, JVM is the thing to use to play with concurrency stuff
23:03 timotimo sure
23:05 Piers_ Any timetable for getting concurrency into Moar?
23:06 jnthn Piers_: I'm currently thinking that by March/April is realistic.
23:06 lizmat down from 480 to 420, so about 12.5% faster in the spectest (for rakudo)
23:06 Piers_ jnthn: Brilliant.
23:07 Piers_ Can't remember if I said, but the Perl 6 stuff at YAPC::Eu this year was about the only stuff I thought was exciting.
23:08 * jnthn will try to have even more exciting things for YAPC::EU 2014 :)
23:08 colomon Piers_!  o/
23:08 colomon jnthn: please don't wait that long to be exciting.  ;)
23:09 Piers_ Hmm... do I need a specific nqp branch to build rakudo@nom? Just did 'perl ./Configure.pl --gen-nqp --backends=jvm' and had it barf with NoSuchMethodError
23:09 * lizmat is tired of parler franglais all day, with some double dutch intermixed
23:09 lizmat sleep&
23:09 colomon Piers_: should be automatic.
23:10 colomon I always do it perl ./Configure.pl --gen-parrot --backends=jvm
23:10 Piers_ Hrm... hang on, I'll nopaste the error.
23:10 btyler_ joined #perl6
23:10 colomon (and yes, that makes no sense to me.)
23:10 jnthn colomon: you...what... :)
23:10 colomon jnthn: is that not how you're supposed to do it?
23:10 jnthn colomon: I'm just a bit surprised at the mix of --gen-parrot and --backends=jvm :)
23:11 jnthn colomon: Does it add parrot into the backends list automatically?
23:11 Piers_ Error: https://gist.github.com/pdc​awley/41c4e3b44bebea9cef5f
23:11 colomon jnthn: … I don't think so?
23:11 Piers_ Arse. Meant --gen-nqp
23:11 lue .oO(The Norweigian Blue 'asn't 'ad its coffee this mornin'!)
23:11 Piers_ (which is what I actually _typed_)
23:11 colomon jnthn: trying to build from scratch now
23:12 jnthn Piers_: Hm, somebody else got that earlier...
23:12 jnthn Piers_: Was this a clean checkout?
23:12 Piers_ Think so. I'll zap it.
23:16 hoelzro so, I've been looking at that odd assignment issue I discovered yesterday
23:16 hoelzro I discovered that the --target=parse output differs, which is...odd
23:16 hoelzro now I'm searching for a debugging technique to print out what matched a rule at the end of a rule in Perl6::Grammar
23:16 hoelzro any pointers?
23:17 jnthn If it's just the one, then throw in a { say($/) } at the end of it...
23:17 Piers_ jnthn: That seems to have helped, btw - it seems to have got past where it fell over last time.
23:18 * perigrin isn't used to Piers_ being named Piers_ ... *visibly*
23:20 hoelzro ok, wasn't sure if that work
23:20 hoelzro *would work
23:20 hoelzro maybe I should stop working...
23:20 pdcawley perigrin: better?
23:20 jnthn pdcawley: Phew. :)
23:21 pdcawley Hmm... configure is now failing with an OutOfMemory error trying to build QAST.jar
23:23 colomon jnthn: just rebuilt from scratch with perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --backends=jvm, seems to have worked perfectly, no obvious signs that it created a parrot
23:23 japhb Oh panda, why are you not doing anything at all?
23:24 perigrin pdcawley: *much* :)
23:26 pdcawley I'm 'Piers' on the work IRC 'cos there's a pdm on there as well and boss's 'type two letters and hit tab' practice falls over hard in the face of that. So, I've accommodated him.
23:27 jnthn japhb: Earlier, it was 'cus it couldn't reach the module list on feather...
23:29 * pdcawley tries setting JAVAC to 'javac -Xms500m -Xmx2g' before running Configure.pl to see if that helps.
23:29 pdcawley Arse... no it won't 'cos it's running 'java'
23:30 colomon pdcawley: what version of java are you running?
23:30 japhb jnthn: Oh, interesting.  I wonder if it's having that problem again ....
23:30 japhb Is there a way to get it to be verbose enough to tell?
23:31 japhb (Because I can't install the debugger in order to use it, and panda seems to be locking up on startup)
23:31 jnthn japhb: I'd guess if left long enough it *should* get a network timeout?
23:32 jnthn japhb: Not sure how well debugger installs for JVM yet, btw. I did most of the other things it needed...
23:32 jnthn japhb: Bad news is that it doesn't know anything about threads yet so it gets REALLY confused.
23:32 japhb Oh, I bet!
23:33 jnthn Well, my 2012 YAPC::EU talk was "a debugger for Perl 6" and my 2013 one was "concurrency stuff", so I guess 2014 can be "a debugger with support for concurrent stuff in Perl 6" :)
23:34 japhb heh
23:34 jnthn Having the debugger actually be clueful about promises, channels, etc is probably a good idea. :)
23:34 japhb Oh yeah, I can connect to feather.perl6.nl:3000 just fine, but sending the GET /projects.json HTTP/1.0<ret><ret> just sleeps
23:34 japhb WTH?
23:34 jnthn I've no idea how that's actually set up...
23:36 japhb Methinks there ought to be a fallback.  Redundancy for the win.
23:37 pdcawley colomon: 1.7.0_25
23:37 pdcawley on a mac.
23:37 * pdcawley tweaks nqp/tools/build/Makefile-JVM.in
23:37 pdcawley tries again.
23:37 hoelzro so...
23:37 pdcawley jnthn: There's a perl 6 debugger?
23:38 hoelzro <EXPR('e=')>
23:38 pdcawley awesome!
23:38 hoelzro that's expressions with a precedence greater than e?
23:38 Grrrr joined #perl6
23:39 pdcawley Yay! That built it.
23:39 colomon pdcawley: that's actually more …. yay!
23:39 colomon what did you change?
23:40 pdcawley tweaked Makefile-JVM.in to add -Xms500m -Xmx2g to the 'JAVA' variable.
23:40 lue hoelzro: no, that just means precedence level 'e'.
23:40 pdcawley Pretty much cargo culting from README.md
23:41 hoelzro lue: so what does that actually match?
23:41 * jnthn finally found time to scribble a short blog post: http://6guts.wordpress.com/20​13/12/07/a-few-quick-updates/
23:42 lue Any operator registered as having a precedence level of 'e'. In rakudo's grammar, this would be anything that falls under the %list_prefix category (search for the INIT { } block)
23:42 hoelzro I see
23:42 hoelzro hmm
23:43 pecastro joined #perl6
23:45 lue I'm sure jnthn or others can tell you if there are such things as e> or d<= . I'm guessing not :) .
23:45 hoelzro I don't see anything tagged with list_prefix =/
23:45 jnthn The thing past to EXPR is actually a precedence limit.
23:45 mtk joined #perl6
23:46 jnthn Encountering aAnything looser causes EXPR to consider its work done.
23:47 mtk joined #perl6
23:47 hoelzro I see
23:48 hoelzro it seems like parsing this one line alters some state in the parser somehow
23:48 hoelzro and makes things angry.
23:48 jnthn Which one line?
23:49 hoelzro https://rt.perl.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=120704
23:49 hoelzro "@!values[0] = 1;"
23:49 hoelzro I've been trying really hard to fix this one
23:49 hoelzro but not making a lot of headway =/
23:49 jnthn That's not a parsing issue at all.
23:49 hoelzro it's not?
23:49 * hoelzro headdesks
23:49 jnthn I don't think so.
23:49 hoelzro or head tables
23:50 jnthn I think it correctly gets interpreted as
23:50 jnthn my $value = (@!values[0] = @!values.pop);
23:50 jnthn So the assoc is OK
23:50 jnthn But the problem is then when it gets sent down for code-gen.
23:50 hoelzro I assumed it was, considering that perl6 --target=parse produces wildly different output if that line is commented out
23:51 jnthn We emit the code to evaluate @!values[0] before the code to evaluate @!values.pop. For most operators this doesn't matter. For = it rather does...
23:51 jnthn Thing is, that worked at some point.
23:51 hoelzro then why does it work if I comment out line 12?
23:52 jnthn Line 12 of...?
23:53 jnthn r: my @values = 1,2; my $value = (@values[0] = @values.pop); say $value; say @values;
23:53 camelia rakudo-parrot de5c8f, rakudo-jvm de5c8f: OUTPUT«2␤2␤»
23:53 lue jnthn: the bug report has a odd.t attachment
23:53 jnthn Oh...
23:53 * colomon 's Mac compiles the JVM stage parse faster than his Linux box does.  I think the Linux box wins handily compiling Parrot stage parse.  Weird.
23:54 hoelzro sorry, maybe I should've been more specific
23:54 hoelzro the standalone example works
23:54 hoelzro (which lead to a lot of headscratching)
23:55 lue r: class Foo { has @!values = 1,2; method Bar { my $value = (@!values[0] = @!values.pop); say $value; say @!values; } }; Foo.Bar;
23:55 camelia rakudo-jvm de5c8f: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤  in method Bar at /tmp/bk9dWyUPXD:1␤  in block  at /tmp/bk9dWyUPXD:1␤  in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤  in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292␤  in any command_eval at gen/jvm/…»
23:55 camelia ..rakudo-parrot de5c8f: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤  in method Bar at /tmp/vbFuQ07kG5:1␤  in block  at /tmp/vbFuQ07kG5:1␤  in any  at /tmp/vbFuQ07kG5:1␤  in any  at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1146␤  in any eval at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1133␤…»
23:55 jnthn um...oh...wtf.
23:55 lue r: class Foo { has @!values = 1,2; method Bar { my $value = (@!values[0] = @!values.pop); say $value; say @!values; } }; Foo.new.Bar;
23:55 camelia rakudo-parrot de5c8f, rakudo-jvm de5c8f: OUTPUT«2␤2␤»
23:55 colomon pdcawley: I don't have any difficulties compiling JVM Rakudo from scratch on my Mac.  10.8, Java 1.7.0_04-b20
23:55 lue r: class Foo { has @!values = 1,2; method Baz { @!values[0] = 5; }; method Bar { say @!values, "---"; my $value = (@!values[0] = @!values.pop); say $value; say @!values; } }; Foo.new.Bar;
23:55 camelia rakudo-parrot de5c8f, rakudo-jvm de5c8f: OUTPUT«1 2---␤2␤2␤»
23:56 jnthn hoelzro: OK, so...I see what you're seeing with commetning that line out.
23:56 jnthn OK, there is more going on there then. wtf.
23:56 hoelzro ok, good
23:56 hoelzro I'm not crazy!
23:56 lue Oh Oh Oh! hoelzro: get rid of the parens around (84, 85), what happens then?
23:56 hoelzro hmm
23:56 * hoelzro tries
23:56 hoelzro still broken =/
23:57 pdcawley colomon: Strange.
23:57 lue r: class Foo { has @!values = (1,2); method Baz { @!values[0] = 5; }; method Bar { say @!values, "---"; my $value = (@!values[0] = @!values.pop); say $value; say @!values; } }; Foo.new.Bar;
23:57 camelia rakudo-parrot de5c8f, rakudo-jvm de5c8f: OUTPUT«1 2---␤2␤2␤»
23:57 hoelzro I've tried adding a bunch of output to the grammar/actions to try and understand it better, but I don't think I have enough experience to find out what's really going on.
23:57 pdcawley colomon: 10.9 here.
23:57 hoelzro I'd like to fix this myself
23:57 pdcawley Anyway, it built now.
23:57 hoelzro because it "seems" simple enough for me to fix
23:58 jnthn hoelzro: Interestingly, if you just mention @!values on the last line of that method it's enough.
23:58 lue hoelzro: does it happen on the first pop or the second? /me copies over the file now locally
23:58 jnthn uh, not
23:58 hoelzro lue: it should be screwed up for both
23:58 jnthn Yeah, there has to be the assignment there
23:58 hoelzro but it works for length 1, I believe
23:59 hoelzro because @!values[@!values.end] == @!values[0] there
23:59 hoelzro so I probably could omit the second call to pop
23:59 hoelzro this came up while I was implementing a min heap for fun
23:59 hoelzro I thought I had the algorithm wrong for a good 30 minutes before I figured it out =/

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