Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-12-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady and the Victorians would have been shocked to see a 'leg' operator :)
00:02 TimToady (but then they even covered the legs of their pianos)
00:03 TimToady (and invented the terms 'light meat' and 'dark meat' so as not to be forced into discussing legs and thighs, or even, horrors, breasts)
00:04 TimToady linguists kinda hate the concept of taboo words...
00:04 TimToady well, the concept is fun, but the practice is evil
00:12 dalek perl6-roast-data: f05ea48 | coke++ | / (4 files):
00:12 dalek perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)
00:12 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/f05ea48c28
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00:59 clsn_ perl6: say ("Z" ~~ /<[A..MZ]>/).perl
00:59 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
00:59 camelia ..niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
01:00 TimToady huh, looks like a rakudobug
01:00 clsn_ That should be a match though, shouldn't it?  It used to match in older perl6s I think.
01:01 TimToady r: say ('Z' ~~ /<[ Z A..M ]>/).perl
01:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
01:01 TimToady r: say ('Z' ~~ /<[ Z A..M ]>/).WHAT
01:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
01:01 TimToady r: say ('Z' ~~ /<[ Z A..Z ]>/)
01:01 colomon niecza> say ("Z" ~~ /<[A..MZ]>/).perl
01:01 colomon #<match from(0) to(1) text(Z) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>
01:01 colomon (locally)
01:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«「Z」␤␤»
01:01 TimToady r: say ('Z' ~~ /<[ N..Z A..M ]>/)
01:01 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«「Z」␤␤»
01:02 TimToady r: say ('Z' ~~ /<[ Z..Z A..M ]>/)
01:02 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«「Z」␤␤»
01:02 clsn_ Doesn't like mixing ranges with straight chars I think.
01:02 TimToady looks like the range version is discarding the singletons
01:02 TimToady r: say ('Z' ~~ /<[ A..M Z..Z ]>/)
01:02 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«「Z」␤␤»
01:03 TimToady r: say ('Y' ~~ /<[ A..M Y ]>/)
01:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
01:04 TimToady so feel free to report to rakudobug, or fire up the masakbot to do so :)
01:05 clsn_ bug-perl6@rt.cpan.org?
01:06 TimToady rakudobug@perl6.org I believe
01:06 clsn_ Thanks.
01:06 * colomon just realized he would almost rather try to fix Rakudo bugs than report them.
01:06 TimToady clsn_, meet colomon.  colomon, meet clsn_.  :)
01:07 colomon clsn_: howdy
01:07 TimToady a match made in limbo, as it were
01:07 clsn_ Hello!
01:07 * colomon does not have time to tackle another Rakudo bug tonight, however.  ;)
01:09 TimToady oh, it might just be rakudobug@perl.org
01:10 lue This is another opportunity to bring up RT's new web-based submission feature. :)
01:10 clsn_ Yeah, found it.  Thanks.
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01:12 TimToady lue: been poking through your S15ish, and don't like the notion that Str has a .storage
01:12 colomon lue!  \o
01:13 * TimToady thinks Str just means NFG always, and Uni is codepoints, and we have real types for NFD, NFC, etc, not fake types under Str
01:13 lue TimToady: tbh I came up with it when I realized that I was writing a bunch of functions that needed to know the storage of the Str, but the user themself couldn't access this :)
01:14 TimToady we shouldn't reinvent the type system poorly
01:14 lue So, Str is NFG, Uni is one of the other non-NFG forms, and NFD, NFC, etc. are more specific forms of Uni?
01:15 lue (i.e. NFC ~~ Uni[NFC] ?)
01:15 TimToady I'd say your functions are not sufficiently polymorphic instead
01:15 TimToady yeah
01:15 TimToady much like utf8 is a specific form of blob8
01:16 TimToady the polymorphism is over the Stringy role, not the Str type
01:16 TimToady is how I've been imagining it
01:16 lue So Stringy[NFG], Stringy[NFC], etc.?
01:16 TimToady well, maybe Uni is a role too
01:17 TimToady but yeah, basically
01:17 lue .oO(Stringy[NFC] ~~ Uni[NFC] ~~ NFC)
01:18 lue TimToady: I'd like to think that Uni is for Unicode storage, and Stringy is a superset of that and other user-defined things, so Stringy[EBCDIC] but not Uni[EBCDIC]
01:18 TimToady in any case, NFC ~~ Uni and NFD ~~ Uni should be true
01:18 TimToady mebbe
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01:18 TimToady in a sense, Str is also outside of Uni because NFG is not defined by the consortium
01:19 TimToady so I think Str ~~ Uni is false
01:19 TimToady and almost everything we get in from other languages will be some kind of Uni
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01:20 * [Coke] gets to sit in on a lovely rehearsal of christmas music at a real theatre.
01:20 TimToady encoded in some kind of UTF
01:20 [Coke] nice backdrop for coding. :)
01:20 lue TimToady: I'm starting to see how locale-aware string types could form possibly. Things like Turkish dotted/dotless I things would be handled by it.
01:20 * colomon is watching the Big Ten Championship tonight, just three days late.
01:21 TimToady we've always seen language-aware strings as a level higher than Str even
01:22 TimToady since it can change the notion of graphemes even further than Str does
01:23 TimToady language-aware strings might even use their own synthetics tables in preference to NFG's
01:23 lue .oO(class ẞStr is Str ...)
01:23 TimToady and maybe failover to NFG's for things outside the language
01:23 lue if those l10n'd types inherited from Str, I think it would.
01:24 TimToady but we'll be doing good to get to the NFG level first
01:24 * TimToady is not sure inheritance is right
01:24 lue Yeah, I imagine the l10n stuff should be handled in modules somehow, like there are perhaps too many locales to account for :)
01:25 TimToady NFG is a bit of a native type, so inheriting from it can't change the memory layout if so
01:25 TimToady inheritance of native types being restricted that way
01:26 TimToady but they can at least cargo-cult the ideas from NFG, even if the relationship is not one of inheritance
01:27 TimToady so FrenchStr ~~ Stringy, but maybe not FrenchStr ~~ Str
01:28 TimToady mabye the role of class Uni is really Unicodey
01:28 lue Depends on what FrenchStr does to accomplish its ideas of characters, methinks. FrenchStr removing features makes FS ~~ Str wrong, but just adding features should allow FS ~~ Str
01:29 TimToady well, if you have to substitute different tables, it's just something else
01:29 lue .oO( role Uny )
01:31 lue I'm kinda stuck on how an l10n Str would modify various rules, e.g. change "ß".uc -> "SS" to "ß".uc -> "ẞ". Changing the .uc method wouldn't be enough, because /:i ß/
01:32 * lue imagines the l10n Str would intercept any queries of Unicode properties and send back different values when appropriate, kinda like a Gameshark
01:32 * TimToady thinks this will be for every language to work out, and we only need a vague notion of keeping the types separate for now
01:32 TimToady delegation may be the answer here
01:33 lue TimToady: Yeah, I'm more concerned with what P6 needs to provide to let language strings do that stuff than with how those Strs would go about it specifically.
01:33 TimToady not inventing a second-class type system is the most important thing in my estimation
01:34 lue .oO(I'll quickly add a waitaminute note to my gist, I fear I haven't quite enough time to switch to S15-editing mode ☺)
01:35 TimToady there isn't a LocaleStr class, since such a thing is both impossible and unneeded
01:35 TimToady we don't need a type that is generic across all languages
01:35 TimToady most people only speak a few languages locally
01:36 TimToady thanks; we should probably move this over to a real S15 soonish
01:37 lue TimToady: you're welcome. And I kinda want to write a blog post about my S15ish soon, before moving S15 to official. However, moving it first doesn't break any masterplans :)
01:38 * lue might not bother converting the Pod6 file to POD, because we're Perl *6* ;)
01:38 TimToady all of the synopses started out rough, so there's no shame in checking something into git and then changing it
01:38 TimToady we supposedly have the Pod6 technology already
01:38 TimToady if anything we should be converting the others to it
01:39 lue I'd like to start a Pod6ify branch soon, probably after moving S15ish.
01:39 diakopter we have the technology
01:39 lue In any case, 30-odd Pod6 Synopses are likely to attract more rendering improvements than 1 or 2 Pod6 Synopses :)
01:40 TimToady dogfood, and all that
01:40 timotimo gmake[1]: *** read jobs pipe: Invalid argument.  Stop.  -  what does that even mean!?
01:40 lue When I have time in ~1h, I'll add the Str, Uni, etc. stuff into S15ish accordingly, and then possibly move it. I've been waiting until it gets to the point where an iron grip on the contents of the spec becomes detrimental rather than beneficial.
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01:41 TimToady timotimo: it means, "Then don't do that."  :P
01:41 TimToady iron grips are overrated
01:42 timotimo yeah, but ... all i'm doing is "make all install" :(
01:43 lue .oO(maybe just make some of the installs then.) Have you tried running make and make install separately?
01:43 timotimo let's see ...
01:44 timotimo okh!
01:44 timotimo forgot to checkout the subbmodules i bet!
01:44 timotimo nah
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01:52 * lue can't wait to be able to edit the synopses without pulling up perlpod and making sure even the most basic tenets of Pod6 are from POD
01:53 raydiak this talk of pod reminds me of a vaguely related question...is there anything particular that a person with web development proficiency could be doing to further Perl 6?
01:54 jeffreykegler Re NFG:  I have wondered if anyone but me noticed the pun.
01:54 TimToady wonder no more :)
01:54 jeffreykegler Although it is a very obvious followon to NFC, NFD, etc., so the question is raised why it is not in the Unicode standards. :-)
01:54 timotimo raydiak: you can try to figure out how to work PSGI with our rakudo-jvm and make it do requests in parallel :)
01:55 timotimo you can write a tutorial on how to deploy a Bailador application on heroku
01:55 timotimo i wanted to do that once, but i was overwhelmed by not having a single clue what anything was ... ever
01:55 jeffreykegler In any case, as followers of the Unix tradition, fearlessness in the face of treacherous puns is our heritage.
01:55 timotimo i don't understand the NFG pun :(
01:56 TimToady jeffreykegler: well, they're trying, but when you start writing out longer and longer phrases for what should be simpler concepts, it slows you down :)
01:56 TimToady timotimo: No F*cking Good in the vernacular
01:56 TimToady an intensive form of NG, for No Good
01:57 timotimo i see!
01:57 timotimo that's amusing indeed :)
01:57 TimToady I think I first heard "That's NG!" maybe three or four decades ago
01:58 TimToady but maybe it predates that
01:58 raydiak timotimo: thanks, I made a note for a more long-term list :) I guess I was thinking more bite-sized to start, like P6-related websites that need help, or pod6-to-html tools that aren't done
01:58 * TimToady does not recommend that anyone trust his memories in this regard...
01:58 timotimo ah
01:58 [Coke] next F***ing generation
01:59 raydiak iow, lots of people here know perl and perl 6 as well or better than I, but I think my html and css might be a useful addition to the talent pool
01:59 raydiak (if needed anywhere)
02:00 jeffreykegler Helmut Wollmersdorfer on the Marpa mailing list told me that the Unicode standards call the rough equivalent of NFG, Grapheme Cluster boundaries extended ...
02:00 timotimo gcbe? doesn't sound as nice as nfg
02:00 jeffreykegler which is not a great name, but is pretty pun-proof
02:00 [Coke] my lon gterm goal is to get a mojo 6 running on the jvm.
02:08 raydiak https://github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/README says "write a tool that renders the documentation as HTML" ...what's the status of that?
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02:11 [Coke] raydiak: https://github.com/perl6/Pod-To-HTML/, maybe?
02:13 raydiak thanks [Coke]++
02:23 raydiak I suppose basic html and css are very common skills, and more advanced stuff like being able to vertically center variable-length content and stretch columns to equal height without javascript isn't very important to perl 6 in any immediately obvious way...*shrug*
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03:33 lue TimToady: You know, if we separate various string storages into various types, perhaps String.length could be reintroduced :P
03:35 timotimo so ... compiling on my laptop isn't exactly super fast ... but it's definitely better than on my old one
03:38 TimToady lue: 'length' is too long :P
03:39 lue How about .ln then ... wait.
03:40 timotimo gonna time my stage parse to figure out where my laptop stands in comparison to my desktop
03:41 lue TimToady: if Uni is a role, would you prefer enums to define the NFD, NFC, etc. classes, e.g. Uni[NF::C] or something, or would those NF* classes simply C<does> a non-parametric Uni
03:42 lue (or is Uni a synonym for NFC, and there's a higher Unicodey role?)
03:44 TimToady I suspect it's non-parametric
03:44 TimToady Uni doesn't know whether it has NFC or NFD
03:44 TimToady or some mixture
03:44 TimToady it's just a list of codepoints
03:44 TimToady much like our current Str type
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03:48 lue And then the NF* types decide which codepoints to convert to the local religion. The last thing I'm wondering if Uni as a class eqv. to NFC is a useful "I don't care about encoding, just Unicode please" synonym, or if worrying about using Unicode loses you the right to not care :)
03:49 lue (i.e. should we or shouldn't we make Uni === NFC, and spell Uni the role as "Unicodey")
03:49 TimToady no, we need a physical type for mixtures/unknowns
03:50 lue so Uni is that 'any semantics' you occasionally mention, a "freedom of religion" type, to extend the awkward metaphor :)
03:50 timotimo huh, jvm stage parse takes 200 seconds?
03:50 TimToady Uni is the closes we get to a round-trippable Unicode type that isn't a UTF
03:50 timotimo i must be doing something terribly wrong
03:51 TimToady Uni is a you-get-what-you-paid-for type, and you chose not to pay for normalization
03:52 lue .oO(too bad NF* isn't a valid type name :P)
03:52 TimToady No F*ing Idea :)
03:53 lue So like I said, "freedom of religion", i.e. You can have ä in one part of the text, and ä in another. The Uni village doesn't care.
03:53 diakopter so doge
03:54 diakopter well, lots of the villagers do care
03:54 TimToady what we want to do, however, is to encourage people to handle normalization at the same spot that we're already checking for UTF decoding, so we don't have to make two passes on the data
03:55 TimToady the point at which we already have a codepoint in the register is the right point to check to see if it's a Mark character
03:55 TimToady so going straight from, say UTF-8 to NFG is going to be much more efficient than from UTF-8 to Uni to NFC to NFG
03:56 TimToady and that's where we want to be insane about efficiency
03:56 TimToady and design the language so that direct translation is default
03:57 TimToady and we don't want the overhead of plunging down multiple layers of function call on every such character translation either
03:57 TimToady it's a very good place to cheat
03:58 lue [ Uni ~~ all(NFC,NFD,NFKC,NFKD), Str does Stringy, Stringy does Unicodey(?), Uni does Unicodey, NF* is Uni    is what I have in my head right now. ]
03:58 TimToady Stringy does not do Unicodey
03:58 TimToady Unicodey might do Stringy
03:58 lue TimToady: so ideally you'd care about NF when doing    Uni $data = slurp($filename, :encoding<utf-8>, :nf<c>), and then not bother anymore.
03:59 TimToady in that case the real type of the returned string should be NFC, not Uni
03:59 * lue is specifically excluding an NFG type, because Str is that already.
04:00 TimToady that's fine, since the name NFG is NFG. :)
04:00 timotimo did i get a ultra-low-voltage cpu in my laptop by accident? >_<
04:00 lue We could s:g/Str/NFG/, but not unless you want to watch how many tests fail the next day :)
04:00 TimToady NFG is not a user-friendly name :)
04:01 TimToady people think they know what "strings" are, so we are taking psychological advantage of that thinkage
04:02 lue TimToady: I'd like to be able to do  Uni $uni = $NFCtypedStringThing  , as a way of saying "I have this NFC string, but I don't care about that anymore when putting it into $uni"
04:02 TimToady well, Uni will pass the type check, if that's all you want, but the object itself will still know it's NFC
04:03 lue (aka. Uni ⊆ NFC, NFD, NFKC, NFKD)
04:04 lue eh, s/⊆/⊇/
04:04 TimToady well, not sure how sets come into it really, but I take your meaning
04:06 lue I wasn't using them as Perl 6 ops, but convenient shorthand :)
04:06 timotimo my desktop does stage parse 3x faster :\
04:06 timotimo tomorrow i'll measure my old laptop against that, and it better be even slower.
04:06 TimToady we'll have to decide what NFC ~ NFD does
04:07 TimToady one can argue for a Uni result, or an NFC result
04:07 lue TimToady: my gut reaction says "that amorphous Uni type"
04:07 lue Though I can see NFC. And maaaaybe NFD too.
04:08 TimToady yes, but then you probably force someone downstream to renormalize a substring that's already NFC
04:08 TimToady unless the bits of rope keep different normalization info internally
04:09 * lue suspects one of the NFK* types should always be preferred when present, because those things seem to be special-use-ish.
04:09 TimToady so concat really results in strand(NFC),strnad(NFD), and then a normalization can skip normalizing the strands that are right already
04:09 TimToady alternately, we just blow up on type mismatch, and force the user to be explicit
04:10 lue I can see either Uni or Unicodey being ropes. I can also see refusing to play nice :) .
04:10 TimToady welcome to the world of language design :)
04:10 TimToady the trick is knowing when to be sure of things, and not being sure before then...
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04:11 lue NF* does Strandy, Uni does Ropey (formery Unicodey), Str does Stringy.    :)
04:11 TimToady we need to see how diakopter++'s ropes implementation works out in practice
04:11 lue in MVM or Rakudo?
04:12 TimToady MVM, so far, but not yet merged
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04:12 TimToady (that I know of)
04:14 lue I suspect we'll have a web of String-based types as complex as the Number-based types before we're done :D
04:14 * TimToady now imagines D~ and C~ operators
04:15 TimToady mostly for [D~] @list
04:15 lue oh yeah, this makes the ~ prefix a bit interesting too.
04:15 TimToady but that's probably a metaop two far.
04:17 lue I think the preliminary decision should be "we don't allow that kind of mismatch", though that's not a very good final decision.
04:18 TimToady well, one wants to see what the workarounds are in each case; picking left type means we see [~] ''.NFC, @list
04:19 lue (I see  NFG > all other NF*  and NFK. > NF.  , but getting those two relations to mesh is a bit weird atm)
04:19 TimToady picking no type means we see [~] @list».NFC
04:19 lue ».NFC feels less hacky to me
04:20 * TimToady is really not all that inclined to make life easy for codepointers though :)
04:20 * TimToady has much more sympathy with the graphemers
04:20 lue I'm trying to recall what I know of type promotion in numberland, but the waters are muddied with separate types that are on equal footing :/
04:21 TimToady so yeah, the » feels cleaner
04:22 lue at least, I don't think I've seen any sort of [<op>] <constant>.<meth> @list in the wild before, but I've seen plenty of [<op>] @list».<meth>
04:22 TimToady we could, I suppose, have special listops, nfc @list and nfd @list that concat
04:23 TimToady those might be frequent enough and readabler enough to warrant existence
04:24 lue Could be. Too bad we don't know how often that would be needed :)
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04:25 lue r: say '[~] @list».NFC'.chars - 'nfc @list'.chars;
04:25 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«5␤»
04:27 lue Yeah, I'm thinking less and less that you can say with certainty which of NFC and NFD are preferred, and our options are:
04:27 lue 1) prefer LHS
04:28 lue 2) Go to Uni
04:28 lue 3) die
04:29 lue (how Uni stores its amorphous collection of variously-NF'd parts is up for later discussion methinks)
04:31 TimToady anime &
04:44 lue .oO(A lot of the specifics in my S15 needs changing to fit the new multi-type setup we've sketched out.)
05:04 lue TimToady: on the mismatch thing, what about    $nfdStr ~= "Not NFD string, but Str string"    ? Would that be solved by prefer-LHS? Or would separating rules between ~= and ~ be a viable option?
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05:10 lue (or would that ~ result in a Uni, and the = part of ~= does the conversion to NFD?)
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05:43 lue updates to the S15ish: https://gist.github.com/lue/7761244
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05:44 lue The framework of multiple string types is there, but sorely lacking. I suspect moving this to the specs repo soon would be the best solution to expanding that.
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06:34 raiph preflex: tell raydiak http://questhub.io/realm/perl/​quest/527bcaf69f567a1d4c00004c
06:34 preflex Consider it noted.
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07:29 FROGGS o/
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09:09 dalek v5: 9b19624 | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/test_summary:
09:09 dalek v5: TEST_JOBS environment variable
09:09 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/9b19624ed1
09:09 dalek v5: 44d7af5 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
09:09 dalek v5: re-apply 27b050ef74464d845e8bd4779eba51fb0d53c040
09:09 dalek v5: review: https://github.com/rakudo-p5/v5/commit/44d7af5ba4
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10:03 finanalyst hi from Hong Kong. Are bugs in perl6 still being handled via Bugzilla? I found that running fmt on an Inf hangs perl6
10:07 moritz finanalyst: rt, not bugzilla
10:07 moritz finanalyst: rakudobug@perl.org
10:08 finanalyst moritz: thanx. Long time been out of the conversation. Hope to rejoin soon.
10:08 moritz p: say Inf.fmt('%d')
10:08 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the given representation␤  in any directive:sym<d> at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:2204␤  in any !reduce at gen/parrot/stage2/QRegex.nqp:724␤  in any !cursor_pass at gen/parrot/stage2/QRegex.nqp:686␤  in any dire…»
10:09 moritz p: say 1e1.fmt('%d')
10:09 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«10␤»
10:09 finanalyst p: say Inf.fmt('%f')
10:09 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
10:10 finanalyst p: my $x= Inf; my $y = 5; say ($x + $y); say ($x + $y).fmt('%f')
10:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«(timeout)Inf␤»
10:11 finanalyst p: my $x= Inf; my $y = 5; say ($x + $y);
10:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
10:11 FROGGS p: printf('%s', Inf)
10:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Inf»
10:11 FROGGS p: printf('%d', Inf)
10:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«get_boxed_ref could not unbox for the given representation␤  in any directive:sym<d> at gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:2204␤  in any !reduce at gen/parrot/stage2/QRegex.nqp:724␤  in any !cursor_pass at gen/parrot/stage2/QRegex.nqp:686␤  in any dire…»
10:12 finanalyst Inf is handled OK by rakudo, but not fmt. I think this is because fmt is a wrapper around C code, which does not handle Inf
10:12 FROGGS finanalyst: it is nqp code...
10:12 FROGGS finanalyst: here https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob​/master/src/HLL/sprintf.nqp#L162
10:13 finanalyst specs say its C code.
10:14 FROGGS specs say something about the actual implementation?
10:14 FROGGS specs/S32-setting-library/Str.pod:434:This function is mostly identical to the C library sprintf function.
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11:00 FROGGS std: multi postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>($a) { $a }
11:00 camelia std 3b262af: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 129m␤»
11:00 FROGGS p: multi postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>($a) { $a }
11:00 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/vEEjoGRu8Fâ�¤Cannot add tokens of category 'postcircumfix'â�¤at /tmp/vEEjoGRu8F:1â�¤------> [32mmulti postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>[33mâ��[31m($a) { $a }[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        colon pai…»
11:04 FROGGS postcircumfix has methodcall precedence?
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11:21 lizmat good *, #perl6!
11:21 FROGGS hi lizmat
11:21 lizmat postcircumfix parses as sub calls nowadays
11:22 lizmat maybe std: isn't up to date in that respect?
11:22 FROGGS why? it parses it, while rakudo bails out
11:22 FROGGS it is just that I need the precedence level of postcircumfix and methodcall seems appropriate
11:25 FROGGS this has not much todo to what @a[1] delegates to
11:25 FROGGS it is about declaring your own sub postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>( )
11:25 lizmat no?  does the parser know when to generate AST's with subcalls and when with method calls?
11:26 lizmat last time I looked at that code, it didn't
11:26 FROGGS the actions know what to do, but that is not the point here
11:26 lizmat ok, then I'm misunderstanding
11:27 FROGGS p: multi postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>($a) { $a } # <--- it bails out but it should not
11:27 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/DIyTbKWDOdâ�¤Cannot add tokens of category 'postcircumfix'â�¤at /tmp/DIyTbKWDOd:1â�¤------> [32mmulti postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>[33mâ��[31m($a) { $a } # <--- it bails out but it s[0mâ�¤    expectin…»
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11:33 lizmat .oO( needs more tea )
11:40 FROGGS lizmat: btw, I am doing the method2sub in v5 now too, but to do that I need to be able to declare such a subroutine
11:40 FROGGS before I augmented Any, Array and List, and added postcircumfix:<P5[ ]>( ) as methods
11:41 FROGGS finally I don't have to augment these types, which is a nice extra
11:44 lizmat FROGGS++
11:50 rindolf lizmat: hi.
11:50 lizmat hi rindolf!
11:50 rindolf lizmat: what's new?
11:50 lizmat a method for creating objects ?
11:50 lizmat :-)
11:51 lizmat I think most people are waiting for parl6-m to pass a significant amount of spectests
11:52 lizmat slightly less new: S17 and implementation thereof in perl6-j
11:52 lizmat did I mention perl6advent.wordpress.com ?
11:53 lizmat and you?
11:59 rindolf lizmat: there's some code I want to write, but I'm being lazy.
11:59 rindolf lizmat: and I solved today’s http://binarypuzzle.com/ .
12:01 lizmat nice brainteaser
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12:12 diakopter preflex: help
12:12 preflex try 'help help' or see 'list' for available commands
12:12 diakopter list
12:12 diakopter preflex: list
12:12 preflex Botsnack: [botsnack]; Cdecl: [cdecl]; 8ball: [8ball]; excuses: [excuse]; Factoid: [+, -, ., ?, delete, get, store]; Help: [help, list]; Karma: [++, --, karma, karmabot, karmatop]; Nickometer: [nickometer]; Nickr: [nickr]; PlokiRE: [re]; Seen: [seen]; Sixst: [6st, ordinal]; Tell: [ask, clear-messages, messages, tell]; Rot13: [rot13]; Quote: [be, quote, remember]; WCalc: [calc, wcalc]; Version:
12:12 preflex [version]; XSeen: [xseen]; ZCode: [zdec, zenc]
12:12 diakopter gah
12:13 diakopter preflex: tell TimToady new syntax http://damieng.com/blog/2013/12/09/​probable-c-6-0-features-illustrated
12:13 preflex Consider it noted.
12:13 FROGGS diakopter: he backlogs anyway
12:15 diakopter I knew that, but this bumps it to the front of the line if he says something before finishing backlogging :p
12:21 FROGGS p: sub foo(\self) { self } # dunno if this should be bugreported
12:21 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/wIbQq3sIJkâ�¤'self' used where no object is availableâ�¤at /tmp/wIbQq3sIJk:1â�¤------> [32msub foo(\self) { [33mâ��[31mself } # dunno if this should be bugrepo[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤   …»
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13:16 bbkr https://github.com/bbkr/GeoIPerl6/b​lob/master/lib/GeoIP/City.pm#L3-L23 - should GeoIP::City::GeoIPRecord also be mentioned in "provides" section of META.info?
13:18 FROGGS only if one ever is going to "use" it
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13:19 FROGGS but since one could do "use GeoIP::City" and will get it exported, all is fine
13:20 FROGGS bbkr: look at it like an enum, if you have a file that only contains that enum and which should be used somehow, you need to add it to provides
13:20 bbkr i thought this section purpose was to index all provided name spaces. thanks for clarification
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13:21 FROGGS it is more like a compilation unit lookup hint
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13:34 lizmat FROGGS: I thought it is more authoritative information
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13:51 dalek perl6-roast-data: a6f9384 | coke++ | bin/rakudo.moar.sh:
13:51 dalek perl6-roast-data: Cargo cult config option from TimToady++
13:51 dalek perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6​-roast-data/commit/a6f938478a
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13:53 * [Coke] sees advent postings are going up at the beginning of the day, not the end of the day. whoops.
13:54 * [Coke] voice memod a bunch of notes on the drive in which will hopefully coalesce into an appropriately-word-counted article by this evening.
13:54 timotimo oh my, my article is due soon-ish
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13:59 timotimo FROGGS: i need to add a provides entry for all modules in my package even if they are not supposed to be used outside of it, right? because the use statement inside the distribution itself would also need to query the database?
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14:26 FROGGS timotimo: correct
14:27 FROGGS lizmat: it is because we can't guess that information
14:33 xinming_ joined #perl6
14:33 * timotimo updated a few random modules
14:33 timotimo can we get an extra logo to modules.perl6.org that shows if there's a provides? like a panda with a little "S11" in the corner?
14:34 FROGGS nice idea... dunno how to do that yet
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14:35 timotimo where do i have to look to find the code?
14:35 timotimo i think i can make that patch
14:36 FROGGS timotimo: http://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/
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14:42 timotimo surprisingly obvious :)
14:42 timotimo oh, this is perl5 :\
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14:43 FROGGS[mobile] hehe
14:43 timotimo $projects->{$name}->{'badge_panda'} = defined $json->{'source-url'};
14:43 timotimo seems straightforward to add to that
14:43 FROGGS[mobile] yeah
14:44 FROGGS[mobile] the hardest thing should be the png
14:46 timotimo hah, that's not that hard
14:46 timotimo i suppose it could make badge_panda an integer instead of a boolean
14:47 timotimo so ... (defined $json->{'source-url'}) + (defined $json->{'provides'} && defined $json->{'provides'})
14:47 timotimo that doesn't look elegant :P
14:47 timotimo so maybe a ternary instead
14:47 FROGGS[mobile] *g*
14:47 FROGGS[mobile] Ohh, that is fine
14:51 timotimo maybe the original badge should get a "not s11 compliant" symbol of some sort, instead of adding "s11" to the pandas of the modules that have it
14:51 timotimo because we're expecting s11 to be the norm soon, and not being s11 should give a tiny warning, sort of
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14:58 FROGGS[mobile] +1
15:04 timotimo oh, HTML::Template requires me to make it two bools
15:06 FROGGS[mobile] Why that?
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: d166faf | (Timo Paulssen)++ | web/ (4 files):
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: display conformity to the new S11
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11:
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11:
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: ... by giving all other modules a red strike-through "S11"
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: on the panda's head.
15:07 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/d166faf012
15:08 timotimo because there's TMPL_IF, but not TMPL_IF_== ;)
15:08 timotimo what do you think?
15:09 timotimo oh, i forgot to add the alt to the image
15:10 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: 56bfafe | (Timo Paulssen)++ | web/index.tmpl:
15:10 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: supply an alt text for the image, too.
15:10 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/56bfafeb52
15:10 Mouq joined #perl6
15:11 timotimo PR'd, because i'm not certain of my p5 skills and didn't test-run it
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15:25 timotimo FROGGS[mobile]: https://github.com/perl6/eco​system/blob/master/spec.pod <- when is the right moment to update that?
15:25 timotimo putting provides into "mandatory fields"? or perhaps first in "optional fields" and then moving it over?
15:26 FROGGS[mobile] Dunno
15:27 FROGGS[mobile] Let's wait a few days for comments on the post...
15:27 timotimo OK :)
15:27 FROGGS[mobile] But then I'd make it mandatory and review the spec
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16:44 FROGGS timotimo: I'd propose this: http://froggs.de/perl6/panda_nos11.png
16:45 timotimo i like that better
16:46 timotimo i'll integrate it into my pull request
16:46 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: 0557ce9 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | web/panda_nos11.png:
16:46 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: FROGGS++ design for the nos11 icon
16:46 dalek modules.perl6.org/s11: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/0557ce96f8
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: d166faf | (Timo Paulssen)++ | web/ (4 files):
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: display conformity to the new S11
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org:
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org:
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: ... by giving all other modules a red strike-through "S11"
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: on the panda's head.
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/d166faf012
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: 56bfafe | (Timo Paulssen)++ | web/index.tmpl:
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: supply an alt text for the image, too.
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/56bfafeb52
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: 0557ce9 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | web/panda_nos11.png:
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: FROGGS++ design for the nos11 icon
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/0557ce96f8
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: 4806ddf | (Tobias Leich)++ | web/ (4 files):
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: Merge pull request #3 from perl6/s11
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org:
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: S11
16:47 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/4806ddf058
16:47 timotimo cool :)
16:47 timotimo how long until the website gets updated? can we poke it manually?
16:48 FROGGS I don't think there could went something wrong :o)
16:51 FROGGS[mobile] No idea about the update
16:51 kaleem joined #perl6
16:51 timotimo it'll happen soon enough
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16:55 jnthn FROGGS: From backlog - I don't think Rakudo knows how to do custom post-circumfixes yet
16:58 Mouq joined #perl6
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17:02 FROGGS[mobile] jnthn: true, I found out that I just need to tweak v5's grammar
17:03 FROGGS[mobile] just so I am able to use that from the actions
17:03 FROGGS[mobile] rakudo can stay unchanged
17:03 jnthn btw, my two Build Stuff talks were recorded, and I signed a video disclaimer, so I guess they'll appear online sometime soon :)
17:03 timotimo cool :)
17:03 FROGGS[mobile] cool
17:04 FROGGS[mobile] :o)
17:04 FROGGS[mobile] jnthn: can I get a comment on my advent post from you?
17:04 jnthn In the meantime, slides are at http://jnthn.net/papers/2013-bs-invoke-dynamic.pdf and http://jnthn.net/papers/201​3-bs-secret-life-of-gc.pdf
17:04 FROGGS[mobile] (about the implementation)
17:05 jnthn FROGGS[mobile]: yes, though I have to head out in 5 mins...
17:05 jnthn link?
17:05 FROGGS[mobile] Todays post
17:06 dmol joined #perl6
17:06 FROGGS jnthn: here http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/20​13/12/11/day-11-installing-modules/
17:06 FROGGS jnthn: read whenever you brane has some capacity :o)
17:07 FROGGS[mobile] your*
17:09 FROGGS[mobile] btw, hacking v5 is pretty fun atm :o)
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17:13 jnthn FROGGS[mobile]: Dinner now, will read it when I return :)
17:13 jnthn bbiab
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17:14 FROGGS umm, is that valid json? https://github.com/timo/ADT/​blob/master/META.info#L8-L9
17:19 moritz looks right to me
17:19 FROGGS star: use JSON::Tiny;
17:19 camelia star 2013-09: ( no output )
17:20 FROGGS star: use JSON::Tiny; say from-json '{ "a": 42 }'
17:20 camelia star 2013-09: OUTPUT«("a" => 42).hash␤»
17:20 FROGGS k
17:20 FROGGS was it YAML that required whitespace before the colon?
17:20 moritz no, YAML doesn't require that
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17:25 FROGGS weird
17:26 FROGGS timotimo: it does not show the <s>S11</s> icon... http://modules.perl6.org/
17:28 benabik Is the S11 icon a panda?  I see it.
17:28 FROGGS benabik: do you see a panda for the ABC module?
17:29 benabik FROGGS: Not for ABC, but for ADT
17:29 FROGGS benabik: right, and it should show this one here https://github.com/perl6/modules.per​l6.org/blob/0557ce96f8ddcb1f2af7a839​262e965579818ed6/web/panda_nos11.png
17:29 FROGGS (for AB)
17:29 FROGGS ABC*
17:30 benabik No, I see the standard no metal here thing.
17:30 FROGGS correct, this is what I am complaining about :o)
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17:34 moritz I just watched https://class.coursera.org/compilers/lecture/4
17:35 moritz there are many points I agree with, but which I haven't thought very clearly about before
17:35 moritz https://class.coursera.org​/compilers/lecture/preview for the table of contents
17:35 FROGGS nice!
17:42 dalek modules.perl6.org: 522594e | (Tobias Leich)++ | web/lib/P6Project/ (2 files):
17:42 dalek modules.perl6.org: this hopefully fixes displaying the no-S11 badge
17:42 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/522594e721
17:43 FROGGS looks like we have to wait 40 minutes
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17:46 TimToady good time to read jnthn++ slides :)
17:55 TimToady or ponder a bunch of relatively low-wattage syntax sugars for C#
17:58 FROGGS[mobile] I smiled when spotting their "using" :o)
18:01 retupmoca http://modules.perl6.org/panda_nos11.png --> 404 Not Found :(
18:03 retupmoca lots of "Bronze Panda badge" text on the modules page, though
18:05 FROGGS retupmoca: seen it too right now
18:05 moritz FROGGS[mobile]: you have to add the new .png to @MEDALS
18:05 moritz FROGGS[mobile]: then web/build-project-list.pl will copy it to the destination dir
18:06 retupmoca so when I try to use a specific version of a module in rakudo, is the META.info information the only thing it looks at?
18:07 retupmoca or will it look at pod stuff or the class Name:ver<1.1> stuff as well?
18:07 dalek modules.perl6.org: 8f0deff | (Tobias Leich)++ | web/build-project-list.pl:
18:07 dalek modules.perl6.org: added panda_nos11.png to @MEDALS, moritz++ and retupmoca++
18:07 dalek modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modul​es.perl6.org/commit/8f0deffb6a
18:07 FROGGS retupmoca: it takes only the META.info into account
18:08 FROGGS retupmoca: maybe this META.info will be generated for you out of information available in pod, we'll see
18:08 retupmoca ok. What does it do for modules that haven't been panda-installed?
18:08 FROGGS k, 14 minutes to wait
18:08 retupmoca (as in I'm creating something new and do a use lib 'lib'; in a repl)
18:08 FROGGS retupmoca: these will takes, whatever version they have
18:09 FROGGS that is what I call "development modules"
18:09 FROGGS but these should vanish over time
18:10 FROGGS so only real dev modules should be in such a path some day
18:10 retupmoca right
18:10 retupmoca does version "*" in the META.info do anything special? Or should I put a real number in?
18:10 FROGGS when installed it will be treated as version 0
18:11 retupmoca simple enough
18:11 FROGGS otherwise it would beat every future version of that module
18:11 FROGGS because:
18:11 FROGGS p: say * > 42
18:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()␤»
18:11 FROGGS p: say so * > 42
18:11 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()␤»
18:11 FROGGS gah
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18:16 FROGGS p: say so Version.new('*') > v42
18:16 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/mgMJpCHKryâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    v42 used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
18:17 FROGGS p: say so Version.new('*') cmp v42
18:17 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/MqSO6cwkmGâ�¤Undeclared routine:â�¤    v42 used at line 1â�¤â�¤Â»
18:17 FROGGS p: say so Version.new('*') cmp v42.0.0
18:17 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/8OfYJf3ghlâ�¤Confusedâ�¤at /tmp/8OfYJf3ghl:1â�¤------> [32msay so Version.new('*') cmp v42.[33mâ��[31m0.0[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        argument listâ�¤        postfixâ�¤        dotty m…»
18:17 FROGGS p: say so Version.new('*') cmp Version.new(42)
18:17 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Default constructor for 'Version' only takes named arguments␤  in method new at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:800␤  in method new at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:795␤  in block  at /tmp/B9TSe4LEQA:1␤  in any  at /tmp/B9TSe4LEQA:1␤  in any  at gen/parrot/s…»
18:18 FROGGS p: say Version.new('*') cmp Version.new('42') # I am going nuts
18:18 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«More␤»
18:18 FROGGS it is not easy to use Version
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18:22 FROGGS http://modules.perl6.org/ <--- works now! :o)
18:23 FROGGS timotimo++ # that is really a nice thing :o)
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18:23 benabik The difference between good and bad is really subtle.
18:25 Fatalnix oh boy, who what the hell is with all of the colors
18:27 FROGGS Fatalnix: colors? what colors?
18:31 [Coke] http://modules.perl6.org/fame-and-profit - should that show the new S11 badge?
18:31 benabik It does, for me.
18:31 timotimo hmm
18:31 timotimo it would be cool to get a daily report of ecosystem activity
18:32 FROGGS timotimo: are an adhoc update to a separate (logged) channel
18:32 timotimo "$n modules updated their master, $nb modules changed their META.info, $m modules had changes in branches, $x new modules, ..."
18:33 FROGGS [Coke]: I hope we don't need the S11 badge for long... (in fact, I hope we can drop it in january already)
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18:43 Fatalnix FROGGS: heh.
18:43 [Coke] FROGGS: ok. in the meantime, I have no idea what it means.
18:44 [Coke] benabik: for me, it shows the panda, not the branded panda.
18:44 timotimo you can mouse over the icon to get a short explanation
18:44 timotimo but yeah, i can write a tiny bit about it in the other page if you'd like
18:44 benabik [Coke]: The branded panda is the bad one.  ('tis a bit confusing)
18:46 [Coke] benabik: yes. which is why having docs would help.
18:46 * [Coke] is happy enough with the mouseovers for now.
18:47 Mouq joined #perl6
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18:47 timotimo it would be much more amusing if the sign was black on yellow and said "S21"
18:55 fhelmberger_ joined #perl6
18:56 FROGGS hehe
19:04 fhelmberger joined #perl6
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19:10 sqirrel joined #perl6
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19:13 AndChat-372521 joined #perl6
19:14 lue hello world o/
19:15 ssutch joined #perl6
19:16 FROGGS hi lue
19:16 ssutch joined #perl6
19:17 timotimo "$foo modules lost their freshness badge today"
19:30 ssutch joined #perl6
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19:59 timotimo jnthn: http://questhub.io/realm/perl/quest/52a5fce49f5​67a5a0200005b/comment/52a6001a9f567ab87a000056 - can you make sense of the dramatically small difference between those measurements?
20:01 benabik timotimo: That's like 20%
20:01 timotimo yeah. i was expecting more like 80%
20:02 benabik I don't think calls are THAT inefficient compared to string operations.
20:02 timotimo the whatever code example supposedly does a clone of a WhateverCode object and calls that for each operator or . in that thingie
20:02 benabik What backend?
20:03 timotimo this is parrot
20:03 timotimo .o(no, this is patrick!)
20:04 timotimo benabik: you were the one i talked to about the find_cclass caching thing, weren't you?
20:04 benabik timotimo: Sounds familiar
20:04 timotimo is there an efficient and simple way to tell (while inside an op in parrot) if i'm being executed by the first thread?
20:05 benabik No idea.
20:05 timotimo OK
20:12 * lizmat suddenly realizes she has no time to write an advent blogpost tomorrow
20:12 lizmat which means I need to write it tonight  :-)
20:13 FROGGS lizmat: good that there is always a plan B :o)
20:15 timotimo i may end up with a working (but quite ugly) prototype for working chained WhateverCode some time later tonight
20:15 FROGGS working++
20:15 timotimo more like ++working actually ;)
20:16 benabik Well, working++, but ++timotimo  :-)
20:16 timotimo hehe
20:16 FROGGS exactly :o)
20:33 lizmat [Coke]: I also just realized that *if* you're strapped for time for you blog post, we could do a swap
20:33 lizmat so that would give you some more time?
20:35 Mouq joined #perl6
20:36 * jnthn back
20:36 lizmat jnthn o/
20:36 nwc10 post-beer?
20:36 jnthn nwc10: Yes, went to a place with 18 different Lithuanian beers on tap and some nice pub food.
20:37 * jnthn looks at the FROGGS post
20:38 FROGGS :o)
20:42 FROGGS /o\ http://de.webfail.com/7fe994aa327
20:44 araujo joined #perl6
20:45 benabik joined #perl6
20:48 jnthn FROGGS: In the perl6 -ICompUnitRepo::Local::File:prio[10]=/ho​me/peter/project-a:/home/peter/project-b how does the priority stuff work?
20:48 * jnthn is struggling to guess what the 10 means :)
20:49 FROGGS the default priority is 0, which the CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation (aka %*CUSTOM_LIB< home site vendor perl >) have
20:50 FROGGS the higher the priority the earlier they appear in the list of candidate groups
20:50 FROGGS all repos of one priority are considered a group, and the best compunit wins
20:51 FROGGS if there is no candidate for the first group, go the next group (== lower prio)
20:51 lizmat which effectively makes @INC a hash without order ?
20:51 FROGGS lizmat: it is not in @INC yet
20:51 lizmat or would you use the priority to insert the CompUnitRepo at the right place in INC ?
20:51 FROGGS CompUnitRepo itself keeps a @repos atm, wich could because @INC
20:52 FROGGS lizmat: yes, sort of
20:52 FROGGS the default is that there is a CompUnitRepo::Local::File:prio[1] and four CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation:prio[0] for home, site, vendor...
20:53 FROGGS the File:: thingy points to the current install/lib/parrot/.../lib and install/lib/parrot/.../site/lib
20:53 FROGGS ::File thingy*
20:55 FROGGS jnthn: you might want to read the diff of the eleven branch, it is not too muh to read
20:55 FROGGS though, I need to add comments
20:55 lizmat #120739   # abuse rtbot
20:55 synopsebot Link: https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=120739
20:56 benabik lizmat: Isn't that less an abuse and more the intended purpose?
20:57 lizmat well, I'm just interested in the link, to be copied into my blog post
20:57 lizmat not to have everybody's attention about that bug
20:58 lizmat hmmm... I guess I should just privmsg synopsebot   :-)
21:00 jnap joined #perl6
21:01 FROGGS lizmat: how are these variables called? ${^TAINT}, ${^UNICODE}, ${^UTF8CACHE}, ${^UTF8LOCALE}
21:02 lizmat FROGGS: I have no idea
21:02 FROGGS k
21:06 dmol joined #perl6
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21:21 shinobicl joined #perl6
21:21 shinobicl hi!
21:21 FROGGS hi
21:22 shinobicl in http://modules.perl6.org/...
21:22 Mouq joined #perl6
21:22 shinobicl what does the panda icon with S11 means?
21:22 FROGGS yeah
21:23 FROGGS shinobicl: S11 is about synopsis 11, and we added a requirement in the META.info for this synopsis
21:23 shinobicl is a warning or an error, or deprecated?
21:23 shinobicl ahhhh ok thanks!!!
21:23 FROGGS shinobicl: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/20​13/12/11/day-11-installing-modules/
21:23 FROGGS see the last paragraph there
21:24 FROGGS shinobicl: it is about a new way to install modules, and for making that work we need that extra bit of information in the META.info
21:27 denis_boyun joined #perl6
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21:29 shinobicl thanks FROGGS, i've updated mi META.info :)
21:29 shinobicl s/mi/my/;
21:30 lizmat timotimo: just an idea for a blogpost: something about the RaNIW, and the slides and lovely excercise material that came from it?
21:30 FROGGS shinobicl++ # thank you!
21:30 FROGGS :o)
21:31 lizmat or is that something you wanted to mention in your Day 17 blog post?
21:38 timotimo lizmat: why me? :P
21:39 timotimo did you even look at my writing? :D
21:39 raiph joined #perl6
21:42 lizmat timotimo: did I miss something?
21:43 jnthn time for some sleep...'night
21:43 lizmat gnight jnthn, sweet dreams
21:44 lizmat timotimo: I guess I thought about you because you were there and since then has done lots of internals stuff ?
21:52 kivutar joined #perl6
21:59 timotimo hehe
21:59 timotimo you missed that i don't write very well :)
22:00 lizmat well, if you don't practice, it will never get better
22:00 PerlJam timotimo: you're on channel full of potential editors to help you improve the writing.
22:01 timotimo hehe
22:01 PerlJam (even if we occasionally drop a word or two :)
22:03 lue .oO( (even if we occasionally a word or two :) )
22:06 lizmat licorice!
22:07 lizmat .oO( only understandable for the native Dutch amongst us )
22:08 BenGoldberg joined #perl6
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22:31 Ben_Goldberg joined #perl6
22:32 [Coke] lizmat: I was going to say you shouldn't enable me, but my boss decalred he's taking the team out for drinks and dinner this evening, which makes a date switch much more attractive.
22:33 lizmat then by all means, go out and have drinks and dinner
22:33 [Coke] I can still make one in time for tomorrow, but would appreciate the day of slack.
22:33 * lizmat gives [Coke] a day of slack
22:33 [Coke] \o/
22:34 [Coke] you are, as always, the best. Danke.
22:34 dalek mu: c77798b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
22:35 dalek mu: Switching with [Coke]
22:35 dalek mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/c77798bd10
22:35 lizmat yw
22:35 lizmat :-)
22:43 [Coke] lizmat++
22:44 [Coke] oh, crap, I also owe a blog post to TPF.
22:44 [Coke] tomorrow is a twofer.
22:44 [Coke] I need to start using obra++'s hiveminder again
22:48 lizmat [Coke]: I'm afraid I won't be able to give you some more slack tomorrow  :-(
22:49 lizmat maybe jnthn or masak may be able to move up theirs
22:49 lizmat *their next one
22:49 lizmat work in progress so far: http://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/?p=2040&amp;preview=true
22:50 BenGoldberg Doesn't show up for me
22:51 BenGoldberg 404 not found
22:51 lizmat I guess you don't have a login
22:51 BenGoldberg Correct
22:51 lizmat https://gist.github.com/lizmat/7919978/raw/1b6858​eb7770ba708fbff6c2318293780959ca22/gistfile1.txt
22:52 lizmat should be public, although not rendered
22:52 BenGoldberg Yup, works
22:52 lue r: "aaaaa" ~~ /(a)+/; for $/[0..*-1] { say $_ }  # today I learned this is apparently crazy-talk behavior for repeated capture groups in the rest of the regexverse.
22:52 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de, rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«「a」␤␤「a」␤␤「a」␤␤「a」␤␤「a」␤␤»
22:53 jnap joined #perl6
22:54 ssutch joined #perl6
22:57 BenGoldberg In perl5, each successive match would replace the previous value of $1
22:57 * BenGoldberg imagines extending perl5, so that a regex like that filled in @1
22:58 * BenGoldberg . o O ( Too much work ... that's what perl6 is for! )
22:59 lue BenGoldberg: that explains why Boost is being a jerk about doing the right thing :/ . At least there's seemingly an experimental feature thing I can turn on to get the right behavior.
23:00 lue lizmat: good post so far, the very last codeblock was formatted differently from the previous ones (<pre>/<code> issue methinks)
23:00 lizmat [Coke]: make it a blog post postable on both perl6 advent and TPF ?
23:01 lizmat I mean, if Hollywood can do that with cross-fertilizing TV series and cutting on production costs like that
23:01 lizmat why can't we ?
23:01 lizmat (assuming the TPF one is to be about Perl 5? )
23:02 lizmat lue: that was me testing: the <code> renders way too large
23:03 lue lizmat: for me, the <pre> renders waaaaaaaaaaay too small :) . [I still used it in my posts because it was the norm though]
23:04 lue (of course, setting my monospace font to the size of the normal fonts would fix that, but then the monospace font's too big for me everywhere else on the web.)
23:08 lue .oO(nvm, I'd have to recompile Boost. *shakes fist at Perl 5*)
23:15 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
23:24 timotimo oh wow
23:24 timotimo i was wondering where the hell the call to the old whatevercode came from
23:24 timotimo turns out i had my $new := QAST::Op.new( [...], $old )
23:24 timotimo yeah, that's going to add the old stuff in there, too
23:25 timotimo i was looking at *every* line in the function except that
23:26 timotimo blergh, i feel i was dumb now :|
23:34 TimToady lizmat: line with say %h:!exists seems to be missing a <a b> maybe?
23:34 TimToady or some such
23:34 timotimo "does the hash not exist?"
23:35 ssutch joined #perl6
23:35 lizmat argh.... <a b c> is eaten by wordpress as some invalid HTML
23:35 timotimo yeah, i think it won't if you put it in <pre> or something
23:35 timotimo what do other people use to make in-line code segments?
23:36 TimToady well, it's just one True so maybe <a>
23:38 lue perl6++ for not being dumb about repeated capture groups by the way :)
23:39 TimToady you mean perl5-- for being stupid about them :)
23:39 lizmat TimToady: fixed, thanks!
23:39 TimToady well, perl1 really
23:39 lue yeah, but p6++ for fixing it :)
23:40 TimToady it seemed a pretty obvious thing to fix, what, more than decade ago now...
23:40 lue I really wish Perl 6 regexes would start replacing P5-inspired ones real soon. Stuff like (?: ) feels incredibly wrong, for starters.
23:41 * lue doesn't quite buy Boost's "repeating captures is a massive performance hit, so you have to recompile all of Boost to get them", seeing as Rakudo on Parrot can run pretty fast with this magical ability.
23:42 lue p: "abcabcabcabc" ~~ / (abc)+ /; say now - BEGIN now, " is just too long!";
23:42 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«Instant:1386805375.631707␤»
23:42 lue p: "abcabcabcabc" ~~ / (abc)+ /; say (now - BEGIN now), " is just too long!";
23:42 camelia rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«0.0846417 is just too long!␤»
23:43 xenoterracide joined #perl6
23:43 lue TimToady: It almost makes me want to write a libp6regex, because Perl 6's regexes are *so much* better :)
23:44 xinming joined #perl6
23:45 lizmat maybe diakopter could be persuaded to allow for Petl 6 regexen in Perl 5 code in the MoarVM perl 5 interop ?
23:45 timotimo wow, i've derped the hell out of this code
23:46 lue lizmat: that sounds like a nice idea, so long as diakopter has the tuits for it :)
23:46 lue Won't benefit me, but P6 regexes are too nice to keep to ourselves :)
23:46 timotimo that's true
23:46 lizmat maybe it's on his list already, but probably on the "nice to have" list
23:46 timotimo could we also get lexical $_ and $/ and stuff? :P
23:47 * lue wonders how a C++ p6regex library would implement <subrules>...
23:47 lizmat but since P5 now has installable regex engines (afaik), that could make things simpler
23:47 jnap joined #perl6
23:47 timotimo with a register that's kinda like a hash?
23:48 lue timotimo: perhaps. The "regex" part of Perl 6 regexes is dead simple; the "grammar" aspect is the interesting part :)
23:48 timotimo yeah
23:48 timotimo especially deriving and stuff
23:49 timotimo we won't be able to write them directly into the code like in p6 anyway except with a crazy amount of preprocessoring
23:49 lue I imagine the worst part about writing libp6regex would be the lack of regexes to parse regex strings :P
23:49 timotimo :D
23:49 timotimo it should, of course, be self-hosting!! ;)
23:53 lue Sure, I could use a regex library, but the C++11 one on my system is buggy atm, and as mentioned I'm underwhelmed with Boost.
23:54 * lue might just do libp6regex after finishing his DLX solver in C++.
23:54 timotimo wow. i finally hvae that prototype i talked about!
23:54 lue \o/
23:55 benabik joined #perl6
23:55 lue (or rather, 🙌)
23:55 timotimo https://gist.github.com/timo/13090bda08ab4824b515
23:56 timotimo added the AST output, too
23:56 timotimo \o/
23:56 timotimo but the code is a *mess*
23:56 timotimo a royal mess
23:57 lue timotimo: I have no idea if that's good or not, aside from the lack of backtraces :)
23:57 timotimo r: say "$_, {(10 < * < 20)($_)}" for ^30
23:57 camelia rakudo-jvm 0bf3de: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤0, True␤use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤1, True␤use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤2, True␤use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numer…»
23:57 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 0bf3de: OUTPUT«0, True␤1, True␤2, True␤3, True␤4, True␤5, True␤6, True␤7, True␤8, True␤9, True␤10, True␤11, True␤12, True␤13, True␤14, True␤15, True␤16, True␤17, True␤18, True␤19, True␤20, True␤21, True␤22, True␤23, True␤…»
23:57 timotimo compare the outputs :)

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