Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2013-12-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:14 timotimo i'm going to bed now. if you find any more typos, feel free to directly fix them
00:16 lue .oO(Help, I'm trapped in a Parrot source code factory!)
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00:26 lue I think the reason why I only got that "Error executing" message when using qx// is because nqp uses a separate but similar fork/child process for shell, while qx uses parrot's. Parrot's has the error message.
00:35 lue From what I can tell, parrot's child process thing checks for the issue, while nqp (seemingly) doesn't.
00:42 lue what troubles me is that the only commonality I can see is the use of the system child process-related functions :/
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00:48 lue (though parrot catches the error before using any of those functions, IIRC)
00:59 * lue would like to know what Proc::Status.status means/does, if only someone spec'd the class.
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01:34 lue Ah, so something in the process (fork() perhaps?) is throwing an ENOMEM for me :/
01:36 lue Which tells me this is a problem with my system rather than parrot or nqp or rakudo or panda. This should be fun :/
01:36 * lue &
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03:03 japhb How can I refer to attributes of the outer class inside methods of an inner class, as in the following (broken) code?
03:03 japhb r: class Foo { has %.items; my class Bar { method find-item($name) { %!items{$name} } }; method new-bar { $!items<baz> = "quux"; Bar.new() } }; Foo.new-bar.find-item("baz").say;
03:03 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/j380BLimoF�Attribute %!items not declared in class Bar�at /tmp/j380BLimoF:1�------> [32mod find-item($name) { %!items{$name} } }[33m�[31m; method new-bar { $!items<baz> = "quux"[0m� …»
03:03 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/9LH70N75Kvâ�¤Attribute %!items not declared in class Barâ�¤at /tmp/9LH70N75Kv:1â�¤------> [32mod find-item($name) { %!items{$name} } }[33mâ��[31m; method new-bar { $!items<baz> = "quux"[0mâ�¤    â€¦Â»
03:16 lue r: class Foo { has %.items; my class Bar { method find-item($name) { PARENT::items{$name} } }; method new-bar { PARENT::items<baz> = "quux"; Bar.new() } }; Foo.new-bar.find-item("baz").say;
03:16 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650, rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«quux␤»
03:16 japhb lue, thanks!
03:16 lue japhb: ^^^ Note that this is accessing the public Foo.items method.
03:18 japhb lue: Understood.  Is there no way to do it using the actual attribute, rather than the accessor?
03:18 japhb After all, the inner class is lexically inside the outer one ...
03:18 lue japhb: %!PARENT:: didn't work, lemme try the alternate form after I find it...
03:19 lue r: class Foo { has %.items; my class Bar { method find-item($name) { PARENT::<%!items>{$name} } }; method new-bar { PARENT::<%!items><baz> = "quux"; Bar.new() } }; Foo.new-bar.find-item("baz").say;
03:19 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650, rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«quux␤»
03:20 * lue gets the sense that %!PARENT::items not working is a bug
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03:20 lue japhb: ^^^ yes you can, it seems
03:21 japhb That PARENT::<%!items> syntax seems a tad syntax-abusey.  But what the hey, I'll take it.
03:21 lue japhb: it's perfectly valid syntax :)
03:22 lue r: my $::<#$$###!#> = 5; say $::{'#$$###!#'}
03:22 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤QRPA: index out of bounds␤»
03:22 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤VMArray: Index out of bounds␤»
03:22 lue r: my $::<#$$###!#> = 5; say $::<#$$###!#>
03:22 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤QRPA: index out of bounds␤»
03:22 camelia ..rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤VMArray: Index out of bounds␤»
03:23 japhb lue: I didn't mean it wasn't to spec, I meant that in this case a package naming like syntax is use to reach something that is in a different namespace dimension.
03:23 japhb *is used
03:24 japhb It feels just a little YTTCN
03:24 lue PARENT is specifically designed to access the parent package.
03:25 lue r: my $a = 5; { say $PARENT::a }
03:25 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650, rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
03:25 lue r: my $a = 5; package Foo { say $PARENT::a }
03:25 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650, rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
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03:40 BAMbanda I'm really confused. I started reading Modern Perl and now I find out that Perl 6 and 5 are two different languages, but compatible?
03:41 BAMbanda where do I start to get acquainted with the culture, philosophy, and of course proficient with coding using Perl?
03:42 diakopter BAMbanda: not really compatible
03:42 perigrin "which perl"
03:42 perigrin diakopter: they hang out and drink together.
03:43 diakopter in a bathtub of koolaid
03:43 BAMbanda dangg, that speaks volumes
03:43 BAMbanda :)
03:43 diakopter well
03:43 perigrin well ... koolaid was added to the liquids in teh bathtub ... let's just go with that.
03:44 perigrin .oO(a Camel is really a harry buffalo?)
03:44 BAMbanda hmm, so Perl6 is for the cool hipsters
03:44 BAMbanda Perl5 is for the mature people settled in their ways?
03:44 diakopter I'm not sure you'll find a generalization that simple.. it's really complex.
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03:44 perigrin hipsters are into retro man, they like the polyphonic sounds of perl5 ... the perl6 people are the cutting edge
03:45 perigrin edges so sharp ocassionally you may have to implement them ...
03:46 BAMbanda so we should reconcile with a healthy mix of koolaid and other bathtub fluid?
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03:46 BAMbanda is perlmonks 5 only?
03:46 perigrin no.
03:46 diakopter mostly
03:47 perigrin again it's not that simple :)
03:47 BAMbanda damn you all
03:47 BAMbanda :)
03:47 * diakopter feels damned
03:47 * perigrin feels all.
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03:47 BAMbanda georg hegel needs to put his tidbit on this matter
03:47 * diakopter is felt by perigrin
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03:48 BAMbanda are concepts descriped in "High Order Perl" available in p6?
03:48 * perigrin felts diakopter
03:49 perigrin yes
03:49 perigrin mostly
03:49 BAMbanda alright, rakudo it is. koolaid is always refreshing
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03:50 diakopter BAMbanda: yes, recursively. Also, iteratively.
03:50 perigrin and hopefully soon concurrently
03:50 BAMbanda sweet, jvm sounds fun
03:51 BAMbanda clojure and perl6, what beautiful shoes for the mind
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03:56 * lue wonders which ulimit settings to fiddle with to discern the cause of an ENOMEM
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03:59 lue .oO(Or maybe I can replace forks with vforks...)
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03:59 perigrin or sporks.
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04:18 * lue dangerously replaces occurrences of fork with vfork without other changes...
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05:39 lue tadzik: on panda, I found the issue to be fork() in nqp and parrot sometimes failing with an ENOMEM. Sadly I've yet to find out why or how to fix it :(
05:39 lue (tadzik: not helping is JSON/Tiny.pm all of a sudden demanding I precompile previous files :/ That's probably my fault though.)
05:59 lue tadzik, jnthn, other interested parties: I apparently have panda's bootstrap working. AFAIK the only change left sitting around is changing the fork to vfork in nqp/src/vm/parrot/ops/nqp.ops and parrot/src/platform/generic/exec.c
05:59 lue I'll test it out in more detail tomorrow, see if that's really what fixed it.
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06:08 lue to clarify, I'm talking about the forks in the non-WIN32 Run_OS_Command function in the NQP file and the Parrot_proc_exec function in the Parrot file.
06:09 BAMbanda sorry for the newb question, how can i place my /install/bin into my $PATH variable?
06:09 BAMbanda please don't redirect me to #ubuntu :(
06:10 BAMbanda the perl6 REPL is beautiful, i just wanna start hacking
06:10 BAMbanda or should i say, parrot REPL?
06:14 lue BAMbanda: "export PATH=$PATH:new/path/to/search/bin" in my ~/.bashrc seems to do the trick. (then you have to either logout/login or IIRC type `source ~/.bashrc` in each terminal you want the changes to take hold.)
06:17 BAMbanda lue, thanks
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06:22 tadzik lue: interesting. Did it use to be vfork and got changed a while ago?
06:23 lue tadzik: no clue. I'll go find whatever git util lets me find out :)
06:24 tadzik okay :)
06:26 lue for parrot at least, the entire function has been in its current state since 2011, with just a couple of not-touching-fork changes a month later and also 2012.
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06:29 lue tadzik: parrot's fork has been around since 2009 at least, I don't think a move from vfork caused it :) .
06:31 tadzik weird
06:32 lue nqp's use of fork is more recent (2013); though I suspect the function is heavily inspired by similar older functions in parrot.
06:32 lue tadzik: I should note I'm not entirely sure that vfork was the solution. I had also cleared panda of any local changes before testing the vfork addition.
06:33 tadzik oh, plenty of people have problems without having local changes
06:33 tadzik and I have no idea what to do about it. Extreme tuit shortage may be one of the reasons
06:34 lue (as a further note, IIRC shell() ends up in the NQP file, while qx// takes its merry time in Parrotland. (in fact, qx// uses nqp::open, which is mapped straight to parrot's function.))
06:34 lue tadzik: I still want to be more scientific about it before being definitive though :)
06:36 lue I also want to make sure my perception that panda's mem usage dropped from 40% on fork to ≈17% on vfork is correct. I just don't feel like recompiling parrot and nqp and rakudo tonight :P
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06:40 lue Even if vfork is what fixes it, I can't say for sure if it won't cause different issues. I was kinda worried that vfork wouldn't even work in those functions.
06:41 moritz_ \o
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07:21 timotimo o/
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07:53 jnthn morining/ #operl6
07:53 jnthn *morning, *#perl6 :)
07:54 timotimo mhh, new language? objective perlscal6?
07:57 moritz objectivist Perl 6
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08:03 tadzik hugme: hug me
08:03 * hugme hugs tadzik
08:03 tadzik :)
08:04 * moritz also hugs tadzik
08:06 timotimo tadzik (>^_^)>
08:07 tadzik (:
08:13 tadzik I usually don't like when people laugh at php on perl channels, but I just _have_ to show you this: http://news.php.net/php.internals/70691
08:13 tadzik it's related because it's about compilers, sort of
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08:14 * timotimo fails to have wordpress publish his article on his g+ profile :\
08:14 moritz tadzik: :-)
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08:17 timotimo i think i could make a habit out of writing Perl 6 with a non-breaking space in the future :P
08:17 moritz non-breaking habit!
08:19 * timotimo is now going to spend the rest of the day obsessively checking the view count on his article
08:19 timotimo i noticed i forgot to mention what file of perl6/roast to put the test i suggested in. i hope my readers will regard that as a puzzle/challenge instead of a roadblock
08:20 moritz they can just ask in here if they feel lost
08:25 tadzik WOW 50% OFF FIRST COMMITS :)
08:33 FROGGS \o/
08:36 timotimo \o/
08:36 timotimo tadzik, hoelzro, you may get a kick out of "creeper worlds 3", which is on steam greenlight at the moment
08:37 * tadzik looks
08:37 timotimo it also appears to have its own scripting language, which looks a bit strange
08:37 tadzik I don't see Linux as a supported platform
08:37 tadzik roman_from_gladiator_showing_a_thumb_down.png
08:38 frettled tadzik++ pretty cool link
08:38 tadzik oh, at least they promise one
08:40 timotimo yes, it's promised
08:40 tadzik timotimo: did you see Race the Sun? It has like the best promotional video I've seen
08:40 tadzik http://flippfly.com/racethesun/
08:40 tadzik it's already steam-available too
08:40 timotimo i played the demo on wine, which worked fine except if i maximized the window in which case the UI became super super sluggish
08:42 timotimo haha, cute
08:43 timotimo ah, cool, it has user-created content
08:43 timotimo that is very good to have
08:45 timotimo hm. i can't get it through the humble widget and unlock it on steam at the same time?
08:46 timotimo and no official linux support on the steam page :\
08:47 tadzik yeah
08:47 tadzik according to them, they had a last-minute bug with the linux release on steam
08:47 tadzik so they delayed it
08:49 moritz timotimo++ # advent calendar post
08:50 timotimo EVERY CUSTOMER GETS A STEAM KEY
08:50 tadzik timotimo: waitwhat. Buying on the widget doesn't give you a steam key?
08:51 timotimo i was wrong
08:51 timotimo normally it says explicitly that you get a steam key from the widget, this one doesn't
08:51 tadzik *relief*
08:51 timotimo but their blog does say you do get it
08:51 timotimo gog.com sells it for 5 dollars at the moment
08:51 timotimo and you get a steam key as well
08:51 timotimo hint hint :)
08:51 tadzik from gog?
08:51 tadzik that's news
08:52 timotimo http://www.gog.com/game/race_the_sun
08:52 tadzik "Now with 30 Day Money Back Guarantee"
08:52 tadzik is that ever true, or: does anyone ever try? :)
08:53 timotimo hehe.
08:53 tadzik but really, steam key from gog?
08:53 timotimo yes.
08:53 tadzik also, I don't think gog gives you a linux version, does it?
08:53 timotimo "every customer gets a steam key"
08:53 tadzik where does it say that?
08:53 timotimo one second
08:54 timotimo http://flippfly.com/news/race-the-sun-coming-to-steam-december-9th/
08:55 timotimo i shot them a tweet to find out if gog will get me access to the linux version as well
08:55 timotimo or rather: buying it on gog
08:56 tadzik yeah, if that's possible, I'd buy it right away
08:56 timotimo well, it's 3am where they are located
08:57 timotimo the question is, is that offer for race the sun limited to the next 5 hours?
08:57 timotimo oh well. worst case: 30 day money back guarantee
08:58 tadzik hehe, let's see if that works as advertised :)
08:58 timotimo 7. GRAAAAH! I'm angry! Can I get my money back right away?
08:58 timotimo We always aim to provide our users with working games, so first we'll try to get your purchase working on your system. If we can't get it working, we'll get your money back. No worries. :)
08:58 timotimo but also: If your game doesn't work because you misread our system specs, all we can really offer is that we're sorry for you. :(
09:00 tadzik yeah, gog doesn't list linux compatibility
09:04 timotimo i'll shoot gog's support team a question
09:07 masak mornin', #perl6
09:08 tadzik hey hey masak
09:08 masak I just wanted to report a semi-visual autopun I saw.
09:08 diakopter BL INK
09:08 timotimo tadzik: let's start #perl6-gaming so we don't annoy non-gamers in here :P
09:08 tadzik timotimo: yeah, maybe we should :)
09:08 masak a t-shirt with "I ♥ REALISM". but the heart is a picture of an actual anatomical heart.
09:20 dwarring_ masak: thanks for the pandoc instructions
09:24 timotimo wow. a pacemaker that gets inserted into any vein that autonomically finds its way to the heart and hooks up to it by itself
09:25 tadzik I wonder how long until someone invents something that travels to the heart and explodes
09:26 timotimo well, if you get the plans from that company, you can easily develop that, but what would be the point?
09:26 tadzik kickstarter? :P
09:26 timotimo if you can already put a catheter into a vein of someone
09:26 timotimo ... yeah right
09:26 tadzik kidding
09:26 tadzik but yeah, that's pretty awesome
09:27 tadzik it sounds like something from a sf/horror movie, hopefully the military is not into these sort of things these days
09:28 dwarring_ I'll tackle wordpress after some zzz's  -  https://gist.github.com/dwarring/7848868
09:29 dwarring_ will need to arrange access
09:29 moritz dwarring_: /msg me your email address
09:29 moritz dwarring_: and I'll send you an invitation
09:31 dwarring_ moritiz: did you get that
09:31 jnthn Probably not if you send it to moritiz :P
09:31 moritz invitation sent :-)
09:31 dwarring_ arrgh getting late
09:32 moritz dwarring_: use tab completion for nicks :-)
09:32 timotimo tadzik: i think the military has no reason to bother with artery-traveling devices if they can just let a bullet travel through the arteries by aiming roughly in the right direction and holding down the trigger for a few seconds
09:32 tadzik I guess so
09:33 dwarring_ moritz++
09:33 * dwarring_ got invite zzzzz&
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09:44 timotimo i may do a lightning talk at the congress this year; but i don't know what about! :(
09:44 timotimo at least i'll be reachable under the vanity number PRL6 through the internal GSM & DECT network :D
09:50 arnsholt timotimo: If we wrap up the ZMQ stuff, ipython and Perl 6 perhaps? =)
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09:58 timotimo arnsholt: you do realize the congress is in 1.5 weeks? ;)
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10:34 timotimo i'm not quite sure what exact commit caused the stage0 to not be appropriate any more
10:36 timotimo i'm also surprised. i thought i had been able to build nqp-j recently
10:36 timotimo but now i really can't
10:37 FROGGS (git bisect)++
10:38 arnsholt timotimo: Oh. That's a tad close, I agree =D
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11:13 * timotimo is going to supply a java bootstrap based on newest nqp/master
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11:37 timotimo there we go
11:37 dalek nqp: 468bd92 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/vm/jvm/stage0/ (10 files):
11:37 dalek nqp: get a newer JVM bootstrap in place.
11:37 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/468bd92c65
11:38 tadzik doom dooom doom
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12:26 FROGGS perl -E 'my %h = b => 3; say scalar %h'
12:26 FROGGS 1/8
12:26 FROGGS wth is that?
12:27 FROGGS ahh, number of used slots of allocated slots
12:27 timotimo FROGGS: "one out of 8 buclkets"
12:27 timotimo yeah
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12:44 hoelzro afternoon 6ers
12:44 hoelzro timotimo: that game looks pretty sweet
12:44 timotimo hoelzro: visit us in #perl6-gaming :)
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16:12 * PerlJam builds rakudo-jvm for the first time in a long while
16:13 PerlJam (heck it's been a while since I built any rakudo)
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16:35 jdv79 is planetsix.perl.org experiencing difficulties?
16:38 timotimo the difficulty of being taken down, i imagine
16:41 moritz jdv79: use http://planeteria.org/perl6/ instead
16:42 timotimo oh cool, thanks!
16:42 jdv79 that's where i got redir'd and that also seems to suffer from some ailment
16:42 jdv79 time heals all wounds?
16:43 timotimo huh, weird, it's down for me, too
16:46 jdv79 its at least dns related
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17:15 * japhb trips over newly-failing tests in p6-pb functionality that hasn't changed in weeks, gets the chilling thought that perhaps it's Rakudo that changed ... time for a deep debug session.  :-/
17:17 timotimo japhb_: oh noes :(
17:21 japhb exactly.
17:22 japhb We'll see.  Could have been seemingly unrelated changes somewhere else, not sure yet.
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17:27 timotimo oh man. i think in my dream you wrote something like "i have lots of cool stuff, but i won't commit it now" and i only just now realized that you didn't say that in reality
17:27 diakopter yeah; he's so non-committal
17:27 timotimo isn't that a weird thing to dream about? >_>
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17:38 japhb .oO( noncommitphobic )
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17:38 japhb .oO( commitmentphobe-phobic )
17:40 arnsholt I get two failures in t/hll/06-sprintf.t for nqp-p. Is that a known failure?
17:41 * moritz doesn't "make test" too often in nqp
17:42 arnsholt As long as you don't make many changes to NQP either, that's OK =)
17:42 moritz I don't :-)
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17:44 japhb Grammar::Tracer running a non-trivial grammar against even a medium-sized file can take a while ...
17:46 jnthn Well, sure...it intercpets every single method call on the grammar ojbect
17:46 japhb Watching the red and green FAIL and MATCH markers scroll by in little sine waves is like watching holiday bunting
17:47 jnthn Actually I suspect having to do the output is a bigger burden than the method intercept...
17:47 jnthn Di you try with --optimize=off by the way?
17:48 jnthn I *think* the regex optimizer landed recently...
17:48 jnthn that's the only recent thing I can recall that'd affect parsing.
17:48 japhb Oooh, I should do that.
17:49 japhb Still fails.  Hmmm.
17:49 japhb Meeting prep &
17:50 jnthn timotimo will be relieved it's not that :P
17:50 arnsholt jnthn: Do you get sprintf failures with NQP on Parrot?
17:55 jnthn Dunno, not run those tests on Parrot for a long while
17:56 arnsholt 'k
17:57 timotimo jnthn: phew!
17:58 timotimo imagine *my* relief :)
17:58 timotimo i landed the new stage0 for jvm, jnthn
17:59 jnthn timotimo: nice
17:59 timotimo jvmnthn :3
17:59 jnthn :P
18:04 timotimo i wonder who'll grab the last two free slots and then christmas
18:05 jnthn Not I... :)
18:05 jnthn I'll be moslty offline from Sat
18:11 thou joined #perl6
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18:15 jnthn phew, my post is on the 19th, not tomorrow... :)
18:19 timotimo i wonder if "what exactly is slow in rakudo" would be a good post. alas, i'm not nearly close enough to knowing enough to write a post on that :|
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18:54 lizmat good * from Cologne
18:56 lizmat at the NR.pm meeting, the question came if Perl 6 has something like the "around" functionality in Moose
18:56 lizmat I'm aware of Callable.wrap
18:57 lizmat but somehow I miss how you would do this with roles in Perl 6
19:01 PerlJam I don't think you would do it with roles.
19:02 lizmat that's my thought also, but folks here seem wildly confused about this
19:03 PerlJam you might ask stevan or someone more in-the-know, but I think that Moose roles + around is more of a misfeature because of the ordering issues that can arise during composition.
19:04 stevan_ yes, yes it is
19:05 lizmat hehe, the ordering issues was exactly what people wanted me to tell here: how does Perl 6 solve the ordering issues
19:06 jnthn I already did in one of my talks a demo of how to implement around style stuff in a module.
19:06 jnthn That's where I think it belongs.
19:06 lizmat jnthn: link ?
19:06 ribasushi stevan_: what about "ze mopz" ?
19:06 ribasushi stevan_: does it have it / does it plan to have it
19:06 jnthn The wrap primitive and all the meta-programming support are in place to do it in pure Perl 6 :)
19:06 ribasushi or will Moose implment it outside of the core mop >?
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19:07 jnthn lizmat: In http://jnthn.net/papers/2012-gpw-meta-programming.pdf I think
19:08 stevan_ ribasushi: there is no method modifiers in the mop
19:09 lizmat thank you all for instant clarity about this
19:09 lizmat :-)
19:09 lizmat #perl6 is the best!
19:10 jnthn Note that *any* method in Perl 6 can be an "around"; it just calls callsame or callwith... :)
19:12 ribasushi jnthn: so... this raises the very same question then
19:12 ribasushi jnthn: basically how does "diamond" role composition works in this case?
19:13 PerlJam ribasushi: are yo asking who wins?
19:13 ribasushi I mean obviously it is "whatever the author of the module did"
19:13 ribasushi it's more about "what is the right thing to do"
19:13 ribasushi academically
19:14 ribasushi DFS, C3-like, customizeable, exception...?
19:15 jnthn Ambiguity = exception.
19:15 PerlJam jnthn++ very succinct.
19:15 jnthn The *entire point* of roles is to not do MRO-based resolution.
19:15 moritz we even have a passing test for that :-)
19:15 jnthn Well, an entire point... :)
19:16 moritz t/spec/S12-class/mro.t
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19:22 dalek roast: 0fed404 | moritz++ | S12-class/mro.t:
19:22 dalek roast: simplify MRO test a bit
19:22 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0fed404b47
19:22 skids r: multi sub a(:$i where { $_ > 0 } = 1) { $i.say }; a(:i(2)); a();
19:22 camelia rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤␤»
19:22 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤  in sub a at /tmp/RQAmDGX7yW:1␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1075␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1066␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1052␤  in sub a at /tmp/RQAmDGX7yW:1␤  in block  at /…»
19:23 jeffreykegler_ joined #perl6
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19:23 skids r: role A [ :$i where { $_ > 0 } = 1 ] { $i.say }; class B does A[ :i(2) ] { }; B.new();
19:23 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650, rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤None of the parametric role variants for 'A' matched the arguments supplied.␤Cannot modify an immutable value␤»
19:24 moritz seems that named and constraints don't mix in rakudo
19:24 moritz n: multi sub a(:$i where { $_ > 0 } = 1) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:24 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«(timeout)[auto-compiling setting]␤»
19:25 skids Was working before. This I found making sure Sum module worked with new star.
19:25 skids (which it doesn't, sigh)
19:25 jnthn r: multi sub a(:$i = 1 where { $_ > 0 }) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:25 camelia rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/Yxk8W13kpxâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/Yxk8W13kpx:1â�¤------> [32mmulti sub a(:$i = 1 [33mâ��[31mwhere { $_ > 0 }) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        infix…»
19:25 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/_J7zTqrtegâ�¤Missing blockâ�¤at /tmp/_J7zTqrteg:1â�¤------> [32mmulti sub a(:$i = 1 [33mâ��[31mwhere { $_ > 0 }) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));[0mâ�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        postfixâ�¤        in…»
19:26 jnthn r: multi sub a(:$i where { $_ > 0 }) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:26 camelia rakudo-parrot 413650, rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«2␤»
19:26 jnthn It's something to do with the default
19:26 skids yep.
19:26 FROGGS star: multi sub a(:$i where { $_ > 0 } = 1) { $i.say }; a(:i(2)); a();
19:26 camelia star 2013-09: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤  in sub a at /tmp/jw8VCu6Vcl:1␤  in sub a at /tmp/jw8VCu6Vcl:1␤  in block  at /tmp/jw8VCu6Vcl:1␤␤»
19:26 jnthn r: multi sub a(:$i where $i = 1) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:26 camelia rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤␤»
19:26 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤  in sub a at /tmp/7ySvzdPvu5:1␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1075␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1066␤  in any  at gen/parrot/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1052␤  in sub a at /tmp/7ySvzdPvu5:1␤ …»
19:27 jnthn I *think* it's actually parsing the = as an assignment operator as part of the where clause...
19:27 moritz n: multi sub a(:$i where { $_ > 0 } = 1) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:27 camelia niecza v24-108-g17d73e4: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤  at /tmp/Il2QCmmfiU line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at /tmp/Il2QCmmfiU line 0 (a @ 1) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤  at <unknown> line 0 (&a @ 0) ␤…»
19:28 jnthn Looks liek it's not the only one :)
19:28 jnthn Which may well mean that STD is doing it too...
19:28 FROGGS yeah, that kinda proves that the parser is faulty
19:28 jnthn Well, or at least surprising :)
19:29 jnthn But yeah, we may want to tweak the preclimit there.
19:29 skids is there an "is" for initializers?
19:29 skids (as a workaround)
19:30 jnthn No; best workaround is probably to declare a named subset type.
19:30 PerlJam I thought we had an "is default(...)" or something.
19:30 FROGGS PerlJam: not there
19:30 FROGGS is default(42)r: multi sub a(:$i is default(42) where $i) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:30 FROGGS r: multi sub a(:$i is default(42) where $i) { $i.say }; a(:i(2));
19:30 camelia rakudo-jvm 413650: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/Iw9ITmF6kgâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in a parameter declaration.â�¤at /tmp/Iw9ITmF6kg:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        copyâ�¤        requir…»
19:30 camelia ..rakudo-parrot 413650: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m Error while compiling /tmp/anIa4hcY5zâ�¤Can't use unknown trait 'is default' in a parameter declaration.â�¤at /tmp/anIa4hcY5z:1â�¤------> â�¤    expecting any of:â�¤        rwâ�¤        readonlyâ�¤        copyâ�¤        req…»
19:31 skids thx.
19:32 takadonet left #perl6
19:38 skids Heh.  Works with a newline after the where.
19:38 estrabd joined #perl6
19:38 lizmat hmmm... do we have any tests for MAIN ?
19:39 lizmat doesn't seem like it
19:40 jeffreykegler_ joined #perl6
19:40 lizmat duh, user error  :-(
19:41 PerlJam lizmat: We don't have any tests for those ;)
19:43 * jnthn shoves some tests between keyboard and chair
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19:49 lue hello world o/
19:50 Alina-malina joined #perl6
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19:57 masak lue! \o/
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20:06 lue tadzik: so you know, I'm currently in the process of testing fork vs. vfork . (Most of the testing is going to be recompiling everything :/)
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20:09 timotimo weird. ohloh found my contributions to ufo and druid and rakudo star and moarvm, but not to rakudo and nqp
20:09 jdv79 planeteria works now
20:09 timotimo cool, thanks
20:17 jeffreykegler joined #perl6
20:20 woolfy lizmat and ribasushi and Sno are totally absorbing the Niederrhein Perl Mongers meeting in Cologne with a discussion about parameter passing in Perl 6.
20:20 dalek rakudo/moar-support: aa9592d | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/terms.pm:
20:20 dalek rakudo/moar-support: provide S*OS and $*OSVER
20:20 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/aa9592dd17
20:21 FROGGS Btw, one must reconfigure more for this ---^
20:21 woolfy Lots of Perl 6 code flashes over the beamer towards the big screen.  Fiery words.
20:21 woolfy Way over my head.
20:21 timotimo heh
20:22 woolfy Somebody mentions "poost".  Parameter passing in Perl 6 should be more like it happened in poost.  I am very confused about the whole discussion.
20:22 lizmat Boost
20:23 PerlJam woolfy: are you sure they aren't just making stuff up?  ;)
20:23 timotimo hahaha :)
20:23 FROGGS maybe someone just said *prost* :o)
20:23 woolfy Eh no, I never make things up
20:23 lizmat there appears to be a C++ library called Boost
20:24 lizmat and someone here suggested porting it to Perl 6 calling it Poost
20:24 timotimo yeah, it's a big collection of libraries actually
20:24 woolfy Oh we are doing proost as well.  I brought a bottle of wine from the city of Perl, a bottle of Belgian beer (Leffe Royal), liquorice liquor (Salmiakki), and some more stuff.  We did proost.
20:24 lizmat Poo++ ?
20:24 woolfy Dump your Poo in the potty.  Potty++
20:24 ribasushi and if it smells right - Poo#
20:25 FROGGS http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_37_0/libs/parameter/doc/html/index.html#named-function-parameters
20:25 lue .oO(It should really be called Boost6, and hope the original Boost doesn't get to v6)
20:25 FROGGS that does look very ugly
20:25 ribasushi lue: that's ok they can always go to Boost7
20:25 PerlJam lue: boosix?  bix?
20:26 ribasushi b00bsix
20:26 FROGGS hehe
20:26 FROGGS ribas00shi++
20:26 lue maybe we could call it not-so-much-of-a-boost-round-these-parts :)
20:26 woolfy Oh oh, it is getting poornographic here
20:26 skids eww that is ugly.  I bet the underscore is mandatory too.
20:26 [Sno] http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/doc/html/program_options.html
20:27 FROGGS skids: yes, I fear so
20:27 FROGGS like foo_ is a named
20:27 FROGGS >.<
20:27 FROGGS good that we have Larry++
20:28 lue The Boost6 parameter library: the functionality already exists in Perl 6.    ← /me hopes that's most of Boost's libraries when ported to Perl 6 :D
20:28 skids would be funny if it ended up being like a 10 line slang to implement.
20:29 woolfy Comment from another attendee: this looks like Perl-code from 15 years ago.
20:29 [Sno] where does that stuff is in perl6?
20:29 * lue assumes "this" equals "Boost code" :)
20:29 [Sno] MAIN() isn't
20:29 woolfy Ah, we are just teasing you, you big baby!
20:29 FROGGS woolfy: that sounds about right
20:31 FROGGS [Sno]: what is wrong with MAIN() ?
20:31 woolfy OK, back to Perl 6, y'all!  Nothing to see here, move on, move on...
20:31 FROGGS :o)
20:31 lizmat given this MAIN: multi MAIN ( *@p, *%n ) { say "positional = @p, named = {%n.perl}" }
20:31 FROGGS I'm spec testing, so I have a few minutes to talk :o)
20:32 timotimo lizmat: @p[]
20:32 FROGGS true
20:32 FROGGS or {@p} to be consistent
20:32 lizmat given this MAIN: multi MAIN ( *@p, *%n ) { say "positional = {@p}, named = {%n.perl}" }
20:33 lizmat should there be a difference between "--x foo" and "foo --x" ?
20:33 [Sno] FROGGS: why it's meant being wong when multi MAIN() isn't equivalent to po::parse_options()
20:34 lizmat foo --x
20:34 lizmat positional = foo --x, named = ().hash
20:34 lizmat --x foo
20:34 lizmat positional = foo, named = ("x" => Bool::True).hash
20:35 lizmat this feels wrong to me
20:35 FROGGS [Sno]: I didn't say that, I just said that boost is ugly... might be fine enough for C though
20:35 timotimo yeah, the analysis code can't tell if x is supposed to be a Str or Bool flag
20:35 lue lizmat: depends on the application (`eix` is one such "order matters" program), though I personally don't think order should matter by default.
20:35 [Sno] FROGGS: the code meant not be beautify in your eyes - that's never been the question
20:36 [Sno] the question was whether there're comparable features in p6
20:36 FROGGS lizmat: yes, feels wrong-ish
20:37 FROGGS [Sno]: I can't tell that quickly
20:37 [Sno] FROGGS: I discussed that with lizmat here at nr.pm
20:38 [Sno] I think Liz can meanwhile tell :)
20:38 lizmat from what I know of Boost (now) and MAIN, there is no match
20:38 FROGGS [Sno]: but I know how powerful P6's signatures are, so I doubt these miss anything
20:38 lizmat it's all possible, to make, I would think
20:38 [Sno] FROGGS: that's not the question, either ;)
20:38 lue from quickly glancing at the Boost link provided, I'd say they're comparable. Doesn't mean the comparison shows mostly-similar designs :)
20:38 lizmat burt it doesn't match MAIN's specced or implemented capabilities
20:38 lizmat *but
20:40 lue lizmat: Perl 6's main requiring named parameters first feels like an unnecessary restriction in syntax. There're many times where putting the option after the positionals makes frequently editing that option easier.
20:42 lizmat indeed my point, I don't think there should be difference
20:44 skids There are a good many CLI that use --flags as adverbs on a subsequent ordered argument then use them again on the next.  e.g. imagemagick.  Not that that's good design.
20:45 lue skids: yeah, like the `eix` I mentioned. But IMO that tends to be something you know you're doing, not something done by default.
20:46 lue (also, Perl 6 doesn't follow the "positioning of nameds matter" rule; it just ignores the misplaced ones.)
20:48 * skids being informed he should hit the road before more snow falls.
20:48 segomos_ appropriate name is appropriate
20:53 jnthn segomos_++ # best thing I read today
20:54 eternaleye joined #perl6
20:58 masak :)
21:04 denis_boyun__ joined #perl6
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21:07 lue tadzik: I... I don't know. Somehow last night I got it working again, because using parrot/nqp/rakudo with fork() works now. This issue is a lot more evil than a simple switch between fork and vfork.
21:07 timotimo wow, we can fork parrot?
21:07 timotimo and it doesn't explode horribly?
21:08 timotimo fork is scary to me.
21:09 lue timotimo: a fork happens in parrot code every time you qx// . A fork in NQP every time you shell() .
21:09 timotimo ah, of course
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21:11 lue switching them to vfork last night seemed to fix the problem, but apparently it actually didn't. So I have panda now (yay! \o/) but no idea what causes those random build failures.
21:12 FROGGS lue: see? that is _exactly_ what happened to me
21:13 FROGGS I guess some force wiped our memory after we found out that *they* are to blame...
21:13 * FROGGS .oO( &$/§=%)&% )
21:14 FROGGS hi, what's up?
21:15 lue .oO(curse you, non-deterministic failures!)
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21:21 lue FROGGS: it's *so* weird, that's about all i know at this point :) .
21:21 FROGGS true
21:22 tadzik lue: yeah, that's what I've found :/ it's a heisenbug
21:23 dalek rakudo/moar-support: 48a2a1e | jnthn++ | tools/build/Makefile-Moar.in:
21:23 dalek rakudo/moar-support: Don't run t/00-parrot on Rakudo on Moar.
21:23 dalek rakudo/moar-support: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/48a2a1e6c2
21:24 lue tadzik: I still suspect it's a system issue, considering I was getting ENOMEMs out of it. Which tells me that sometimes your computer just doesn't feel like being helpful :/
21:24 tadzik seems that it happens for everybody's computers
21:25 ajr joined #perl6
21:30 lue tadzik: yeah, and unless there's a C-level way to do a better fork, I don't see a solution :/ (I see only a sort of "try again if it failed, up to X times" deal atm)
21:30 kolmurm joined #perl6
21:32 * lue finally has Pod::To::HTML, after all this time :)
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21:38 lue tadzik: would it be on the Pod parser or the Pod::To::HTML module to *not* cut off the leading spaces on implicit code blocks?
21:43 tadzik I think it's specced to do that
21:43 tadzik so, the former
21:45 lue tadzik: the POD parser preserves that space, which I think looks better. S26 demonstrates the difference between explicit code blocks and implicit ones. (The implicit ones are the code blocks that are horribly aligned with normal text ☺)
21:45 dmol joined #perl6
21:45 tadzik lue: by POD you mean Perl 5 POD, right?
21:45 denis_boyun joined #perl6
21:45 lue Yes. P6's is Pod or Pod6 in my spelling :)
21:46 tadzik right
21:46 tadzik well, in that case implicit blocks are parsed differently than explicit ones, I'm not sure I like that
21:46 lue (That space removal thing also broke the WHY/WHEREFORE diagram in S26, though that feels more "classical bug" than "design issue")
21:47 raiph http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/asynchronous-programming-promises-and-channels/#comment-3478 # commenter asks what does "winner" mean? does "await" mean the opposite of its meaning in C#?
21:49 dmol joined #perl6
21:49 masak 'night, #perl6
21:49 tadzik good knight masak
21:49 lue tadzik: I would go for "use CSS to create that pleasing left-side space", but the HTML output makes no distinction between explicit and implicit code blocks, so you'd end up adding too much LHS space to the explicit blocks.
21:49 lue ♞ masak o/
21:50 tadzik lue: yup
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21:50 tadzik that's another reason why I don't really like it :)
21:50 tadzik it'll result in renderers trying to guess what the longest leading space is, bleh
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21:53 lue I personally think "indented code blocks" is a fair assumption to make on how most people want blocks of code to be output. (i.e. preserve those extra spaces from the normal text's left margin rightward)
21:54 tadzik but I think they'll also assume the explicit code blocks to be indented in the same way
21:55 lue tadzik: all they have to do is not indent the =begin code line :)
21:56 dmol joined #perl6
21:56 lue I see this more as a special-handling of implicit code blocks issue, than a "make both kinds of code blocks consistent" issue.
21:57 lue The other solution is for renderers to make distinctions between the kinds of blocks for formatting purposes, e.g. <pre style="implicit"> and <pre style="explicit">
21:57 tadzik special handling is what I'd rather avoid
21:57 tadzik this assumes that the resulting AST remembers what kind of blocks they were
21:58 lue Some would say the parsing text differently based on how much space is in front is already special handling :)
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22:00 lue I'd say that implicit v. explicit is special enough to warrant some extra info in the AST. So long as the grammar parses their contents differently, at least.
22:00 woolfy left #perl6
22:01 lizmat decommute&
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22:05 lue I should file a rakudobug on that WHY/WHEREFORE diagram though. From the HTML source it seems that it just interpreted the diagram as a series of consecutive implicit code blocks :) . (Seeing a new code block whenever the next line's indentation was less than the codeblock's set indentation)
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22:09 dwarring here's my day 18 advent draft - https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/?p=2129&amp;preview=true
22:09 dwarring all being good, I'll publish in a couple of hours
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22:21 lue dwarring: some general points: the whole post is formatted as a blockquote (if you go into source mode there'll likely be a <quote> or something at the top), and double-check your code to make sure all the <rule> stuff isn't missing.
22:21 lue (those angle brackets tend to get eaten by wordpress.)
22:22 FROGGS &lt; is your friend
22:23 dwarring lue: been there with the angle brackets!
22:23 lue dwarring: "The deal contains of one" should be s/contains/consists/, and "please consider using on or more" on should be one :)
22:24 lue That's all I noticed (think there was one more nitpick but can't find it back). dwarring++ for the post :)
22:25 lue (I only noticed the missing angle brackets in the first code block, with the grammar.)
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22:25 dwarring aarrgh that would make for any interesting post
22:26 dwarring lue++ FROGGS++
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22:36 FROGGS dwarring: how does it deal with duplicates in the first grammar?
22:41 dwarring The first grammar is'n t checking for duplicates
22:42 dwarring that doesn't start until actions or assetions are added
22:42 dwarring i'll see if I can make that clearer
22:43 FROGGS just this sentence is weird in this regard: As expected, the first cut of the grammar cheerily parses hands and deals with duplicate cards.
22:43 FROGGS I'd just strip the " and deals with duplicate cards"
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22:46 dwarring FROGGS: yeah that's wrong and confusing
22:46 FROGGS and the "s" from "Disallowing Duplicates" is not bold :P
22:52 timotimo now there's &lt; and &gt; inside the <pre> that show up as such
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22:53 lue Wp is kind of a moron when it comes to angle brackets :) .
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23:03 dwarring timotimo: whoops, fixed
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23:06 timotimo i'd call them "callees" rather than "descendants" for the dynamic variable thing
23:07 timotimo and there's ’%#’ but then there's '%' and '*' right after that
23:07 timotimo probably "intelligent quotes" from the wysiwyg editor or something
23:08 timotimo 'hey there's an extra ...' looks unpleasant, what with starting with ' and having a ' in between
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23:09 timotimo and i'd also briefly mention the :i and .lc, just in passing
23:10 dmol joined #perl6
23:10 timotimo you could mention what exactly causes trouble with your code assertion when backtracking and how you can deal with it
23:10 timotimo (normally, i'd say deal with it with a cascade of dynamic variables that copy their outer data, but that doesn't work in this case, because the data has to travel sideways, rather than downwards; you could, however, let the hand call down to hand again and thus have a stack to work with. doesn't seem very good for this exact case, though)
23:11 timotimo it's a good post, thanks dwarring :)
23:13 timotimo bedtime :)
23:13 dwarring timotimo++ thanks gnite
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23:31 dalek specs: 2b0ef1b | lue++ | S15-unicode.pod:
23:31 dalek specs: [S15] Clarify values the uniprops hash can contain
23:31 dalek specs:
23:31 dalek specs: Based off the value types defined in UAX#44, §5.2, the mapping is now
23:31 dalek specs: thus:
23:31 dalek specs:
23:31 dalek specs:     B → Bool
23:31 dalek specs:     N → Rat
23:31 dalek specs:     C, E, S, M → Str
23:31 dalek specs:
23:31 dalek specs: Though perhaps the 'E'numeration types could actually be Enums, if the
23:31 dalek specs: benefits of codifying them as enumerations is worth it.
23:31 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/2b0ef1ba11
23:31 dalek specs: 51a72a0 | lue++ | S15-unicode.pod:
23:31 dalek specs: [S15] Modify "Final Considerations" on mismatching in operators.
23:31 dalek specs:
23:31 dalek specs: Essentially, NFC ~ NFD -> Uni, instead of the previous "causes an error"
23:31 dalek specs: definition. Note that detailing various operators and functions still
23:31 dalek specs: needs doing.
23:31 dalek specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/51a72a0ac7
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